FrozenNew York, NYJoin Date: 2010-07-02Member: 72228Members, Constellation
@remi by lowering marine pres to 15 at start you're extincting the shotgun rush. Not that it's common or anything, but the change is removing it from the game. Just noting, I don't think I or anyone cares all that much about them in ns2
I doubt that is all they have planned. That is only what is shown in trello.
There are plenty of little things I would like to see added, although they are unlikely.
Handgrenades are kept until used, even if you die. I think mines should have the same functionality.
Welders should do the same kind of structural damage that the axe does. It is silly that you have to drop your welder to use your axe.
I think lerks and fades need a small HP buff. The b279 hitreg improvements made these lifeforms harder to keep alive. The healthbars further increase the difficulty. A small hp buff of maybe 5-10% eHP might be enough to offset those two increases in difficulty.
I think gorges should be free. That way a gorge is a sidegrade to a skulk. Switching between skulk and gorge would be free. Obviously, this would require rebalancing bile bomb and gorge tunnels in other ways.
I think marines should have a soft counter to contaminate. Contaminate in its current form is unstoppable. If aliens get to biomass 9 then can just instawin. I would suggest delaying the bilebomb effect by 1.5 seconds, and allow flamethrowers to prevent the bilebomb from happening if the contaminate mushroom is burned before those 1.5 seconds.
I think flamethrowers desperately need to have their fire rate improved. I would like to see the fire rate be twice as quick and the base damage be half as much.
Pulse grenades need a slight buff. This could be done in many ways. One is increase the damage by 25%. Another is increase time of the electrify effect by 50%.
Something needs to be done so that shift hive is not chosen 75% of games, nor the strongest hive. Look at this graph. I don't have any ideas on how to fix this, I just recognize it needs fixed.
@Nordic, balance changes coming... cost of this, cost of that... where do new strategies arise?
If you want to really balance healthbars, look at MOBAs: instead of more lifeforms to burn or run-to-crag tactics you can go invis, ultimate defense, reflect damage, teleport...; there are powerful nukes, stuns/disables and heals to manipulate that HP level.
Rly, NS2 with healthbars looks like a classic MOBA, but you have no nukes or abilities. So it boils down to focusing-retreat gameplay.
I don't believe they mentioned anything about trying to help Rookies aim or tracking during fights.. And if that's the case and their goal was to help rookies with their aim/tracking then again it should be something that is only on a rookie server. Simply because having such aim/tracking help (in addition to knowing the hp of your target BEFORE the fight) will help high skill veterans a LOT more than it will help casuals or rookies...
It wasn't the initial intent, but it fit with the objectives of the feature to make the game more accessible to new players, and make it more fun to shoot skulks. I had actually been trying outlining player models to help with the tracking, but found that the health bars alone did a fine job of assisting in that regard.
I could be wrong, but yeah.. A killcam would help rookies understand how close they got to getting the kill, while helping them see how the veteran got the kill on them (so they might learn something) yet without giving aim/tracking assistance...
A kill cam serves a slightly different purpose, although there is some overlap. It is definitely something I would like to see but it is not a simple feature to add and would definitely take some time to implement (not just engine side either, there's a lot of lua that would probably need to be modified to make it work too).
Seems like a no brainer to me... The longer we have these hp bars the more Marine players will like them and want them to stay (and why not, they make things a LOT easier on Marine)
I don't understand these arguments, or rather, they don't sway me. If it makes the game feel easier / more fun why would we revert it? This change did raise the skill floor for marines, but rather than reverting to bring the balance back in check, I'd rather we adjust other gameplay elements to help sway it towards Aliens instead. See https://trello.com/c/ojAhL7zx/121-298-adjust-pres-flow for an example of a change that is likely to help out aliens by making it so players get more pres so they can replace their lifeforms more quickly.
Why do all of your quotes say they come from me? Or is that happening for everyone else too?
@remi, @Nordic, making the game less punishing IS NOT NECESSARILY A GOOD THING. You are basically removing challenge from the game and reducing the skill ceiling.
@Nordic, balance changes coming... cost of this, cost of that... where do new strategies arise?
If you want to really balance healthbars, look at MOBAs: instead of more lifeforms to burn or run-to-crag tactics you can go invis, ultimate defense, reflect damage, teleport...; there are powerful nukes, stuns/disables and heals to manipulate that HP level.
Rly, NS2 with healthbars looks like a classic MOBA, but you have no nukes or abilities. So it boils down to focusing-retreat gameplay.
@devel Can you explain more what you mean by those abilities? I haven't played a lot of MOBAs, so I don't know how those change/avoid the "retreat focused" gameplay. I am curious about what you mean, though.
@Nordic I think you're pulling this thread off topic.
Some upcoming changes to health bars, currently in testing:
Kouji_SanSr. Hινε UÏкεεÏεг - EUPT DeputyThe NetherlandsJoin Date: 2003-05-13Member: 16271Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
edited May 2016
@remi crowdcontrol, the only one we have is stomp on Onos, that means she can escape using that. Although it requires too much energy for escapes so Charge is better to use...
What @devel means is that with MOBAs the game revolves around:
Controlling the situation by crowd control (stuns/slowdowns/walls in path of enemy), used for going into and escaping from combat
Knowing the enemy health and knowing what to do (engage/stun/block etc...)
Last hitting the mobs (hp bar) for extra cash/exp
Baiting is also part of that situation, based on your own "low HP" faking, while you still have your escape mechanism and Ultimate available. Or deliberately over extending or faking that you're scared, merely to lure people into a trap. Now because of that huge availability of crowdcontrolling abilities. This baiting can (has to) be done, with the use of HP bars and it works very well. In NS2 this simply doesn't work, due to lack of crowdcontrol*...
And there is the Ultimate, which is a huge damage dealer (killshot). It's basically the ultimate attack of a character, which is tied to cooldown during combat and has to be unlocked based on level/skillpoints (similar to Alien abilities)
So as I said, the only one available in NS2 is the Onos stomp (and arguable web lol and spikewall?). The thing is, with this new knowledge about alien HP, you've basically removed Crowd Control/Baiting from the alien gameplay. And that my friend, is the Ultimate mistake as it has a way too huge impact on alien play. That HP knowledge is changing the game way too much, turning it more into a MOBA, BUT without the proper elements I mentioned above to be able to balance it out... Also MOBAs tend to be the only game that have accepted stuns/slowdowns, cause they are part of the how that game is played. *NS2 slowdowns and stuns, that would kill this game, so beware of even thinking about adding that nonsense. Unless you want the true inner NS2 shitstorm of drama to occur
Also my random thought might be a proper compromise by removing this HP information, but keeping the easier to track stuff for marines. I still don't think aliens even need this HP bar nonsense, they have Aura, Parasite, Alien Vision and Hive sight... http://forums.unknownworlds.com/discussion/comment/2284513/#Comment_2284513
The first thought that came to mind when I launched the game ;-) :
Seriously though, they're kind of hilarious.
It's probably OK, I don't see the argument of "this is not a RPG," when we're already drawing damage numbers... Tacky, but OK. You do volunteer some subtle but important information, which was hidden before. That's really the change - and that is how much health you have GOING INTO the engagement. Someone who may see you're not at full health to begin with may decide to elevate their experience to a higher-level tryhard moment than if they hadn't seen that.
When I first started playing NS2, I actually had the damage numbers off (but then I realized they're useful over time, and I'm shooting myself in the ass if I don't have them on, so I turned them on). I believe if we're going "hardcore," that's the way to go. Just the little red hitmarker. Then you will really HaveGonePro.
Terrible idea. It would also make killing lifeforms or weapons less meaningful. Kind of like how when you do something in a 12-woman server it matters a lot, like even a single kill of a marine or a skulk, because then maybe you can abuse the structures and there's nobody else nearby to prevent it.
Contrast that with a 65535-woman server. You kill two people, and there's 45 behind them or 57 nearby ready to kill you. So individual contributions become more and more meaningless.
That will be the increasingly worse if this change is in effect. Killed a lerk? Meh, he can just relerk. Biled a shotgun? No biggie, he's already bought another one.
Yes, it will make the game more "forgiving to næbs." (Do they even exist anymore, and why are we trying to cater to a population which doesn't exist for a game that's effectively EOL?) It will also make it less enjoyable for me.
On topic: I just lost a fade because I wasn't able to "hide" in a hive location (fully built up) because the health bars allowed marines to find me too easily.
Off topic: 25% faster pres accumulation sounds like it's _really_ going to hurt marines - now late game aliens will be even harder to take down if they can pump out onos 25% faster.
On topic: I just lost a fade because I wasn't able to "hide" in a hive location (fully built up) because the health bars allowed marines to find me too easily.
Off topic: 25% faster pres accumulation sounds like it's _really_ going to hurt marines - now late game aliens will be even harder to take down if they can pump out onos 25% faster.
I hope UWE is considering what happens when you increase pres accumulation speed. It really comes down to the right balance. If they are trying to "speed" up the game in a sense then it could still work. If this takes away the risk/reward of keeping a lifeform alive/killing a lifeform then this might ruin what is great about ns2.
A big part of the game is getting the life forms down (or pushing them constantly out of the room) and having the other team go through pain for losing a life form quickly. If there is no down time, then there is no risk. Same thing with sgs...it should be painful to lose sgs in a hive rush that didn't go well. Or a fight that didn't go the marines way and their sgs got biled. There still has to be the risk there and it should tip the scales in the other teams advantage or this could turn into a standard shooter=boring.
@devel Can you explain more what you mean by those abilities? I haven't played a lot of MOBAs, so I don't know how those change/avoid the "retreat focused" gameplay. I am curious about what you mean, though.
You can initiate a teamfight and, as a result, be on low HP (until your team comes in about 2-3 seconds), but the enemy players won't waste big ultimate nukes on you because you can pop your temporary damage reflection. Then your team will come and the enemy will be busy casting ultimates on them, so you'll be still lurking around with your pretty useful secondary stun.
The target, you've initiated on, is healed by his allies. So, the enemy team is kind of on full HP, but maybe they've got too many healing/saveup abilities on cooldown. In an ideal teamfight these abilities were needed for a different player. And you're still there with these stuns that are making retreat without losses impossible.
There are also damage dealers with vampirism. Their game is to keep biting the enemy while receiving tones of damage. If they stop chewing, they melt very fast. So, their disengagement needs stun help from the team.
HP and time is traded for the cooldowns of the nukes and stuns. Abilities counter other abilities in certain windows of time and space.
On topic: I just lost a fade because I wasn't able to "hide" in a hive location (fully built up) because the health bars allowed marines to find me too easily.
Off topic: 25% faster pres accumulation sounds like it's _really_ going to hurt marines - now late game aliens will be even harder to take down if they can pump out onos 25% faster.
I hope UWE is considering what happens when you increase pres accumulation speed. It really comes down to the right balance. If they are trying to "speed" up the game in a sense then it could still work. If this takes away the risk/reward of keeping a lifeform alive/killing a lifeform then this might ruin what is great about ns2.
A big part of the game is getting the life forms down (or pushing them constantly out of the room) and having the other team go through pain for losing a life form quickly. If there is no down time, then there is no risk. Same thing with sgs...it should be painful to lose sgs in a hive rush that didn't go well. Or a fight that didn't go the marines way and their sgs got biled. There still has to be the risk there and it should tip the scales in the other teams advantage or this could turn into a standard shooter=boring.
I am pretty sure that they do not want too much punishment for losing a lifeform. Because beginners could lose motivation if they flash their lifeforms and have to wait too long to relifeform.
I do not see a reason to touch balance here, times and res for lifeforms are already very balanced.
I don't believe they mentioned anything about trying to help Rookies aim or tracking during fights.. And if that's the case and their goal was to help rookies with their aim/tracking then again it should be something that is only on a rookie server. Simply because having such aim/tracking help (in addition to knowing the hp of your target BEFORE the fight) will help high skill veterans a LOT more than it will help casuals or rookies...
It wasn't the initial intent, but it fit with the objectives of the feature to make the game more accessible to new players, and make it more fun to shoot skulks. I had actually been trying outlining player models to help with the tracking, but found that the health bars alone did a fine job of assisting in that regard.
I could be wrong, but yeah.. A killcam would help rookies understand how close they got to getting the kill, while helping them see how the veteran got the kill on them (so they might learn something) yet without giving aim/tracking assistance...
A kill cam serves a slightly different purpose, although there is some overlap. It is definitely something I would like to see but it is not a simple feature to add and would definitely take some time to implement (not just engine side either, there's a lot of lua that would probably need to be modified to make it work too).
Seems like a no brainer to me... The longer we have these hp bars the more Marine players will like them and want them to stay (and why not, they make things a LOT easier on Marine)
I don't understand these arguments, or rather, they don't sway me. If it makes the game feel easier / more fun why would we revert it? This change did raise the skill floor for marines, but rather than reverting to bring the balance back in check, I'd rather we adjust other gameplay elements to help sway it towards Aliens instead. See https://trello.com/c/ojAhL7zx/121-298-adjust-pres-flow for an example of a change that is likely to help out aliens by making it so players get more pres so they can replace their lifeforms more quickly.
It does not feel fun. It feels completely and utterly cheap. I can now play more efficiently because there is no ambiguity as to HP. Pistol or reload? Bite or spike? Here's some free help that is even more accurate than aura with exact hp values. Oh hey, parasite kill HP! You are not just helping rookies, vets arguably benefit even more from this which in turn contributes to rookies getting stomped harder. There is also the already often brought up issue of aliens being unable to take the risk of staying in the room when low to contribute to winning a fight. And all the new engagements exposes players going in low / not on full HP.
And really, letting aliens replace their lifeforms quicker doesn't help. You are removing depth from combat. Its not just a balance issue.
So knowing you guys are not gonna remove it entirely maybe just remove it on aliens. And make it a researched thing like 2nd CC and 15 res for health bars. Marines shoot projectiles from long distances which can easily illuminate and track aliens afar. Aliens having health bars by default isn't really an issue seeing how an aliens for the most part has to physically touch you in order for them to know your health with these new healthbars. Just trying to provides solutions other than your pres aquisiton nonsense. Which still doesn't eliminate this new gameplay of flash lifeforms. So now they can just flash a lerk 2 times in a row quickly now is that it. Makes aliens look ridiculous and this way more comms will start putting 2 ccs faster and make tech pts more worthwhile for marines and help distract sneaky tunnels.
Well someone in a pub just said it helps them on aliens too. So it could help a lerk for example almost always have aura in a sense. So yeah, it could help both sides and improve people's accuracy. The problem is, it might make good shooters even better cause they will just go after the life form they know they can kill. It will help all players though, so maybe the trade off is worth it. It does feel like a hack though when it's on. I guess this was one way to make it easier on people to play this game, this or increasing the size of the hitbox. I do understand the reasoning behind why they did this, it's very difficult to aim well in this game. It's also difficult to know what to focus on with a lot of craziness moving around you.
actually, this, now i can see what kind of damage lerk spikes are doing, i was always kind of iffy because of the damage type of lerking. never got the count down, so this is a big help actually.
i've also got something like 2000+ hours... but lerking lerking was never my thing.
@Nordic, balance changes coming... cost of this, cost of that... where do new strategies arise?
If you want to really balance healthbars, look at MOBAs: instead of more lifeforms to burn or run-to-crag tactics you can go invis, ultimate defense, reflect damage, teleport...; there are powerful nukes, stuns/disables and heals to manipulate that HP level.
Rly, NS2 with healthbars looks like a classic MOBA, but you have no nukes or abilities. So it boils down to focusing-retreat gameplay.
@devel Can you explain more what you mean by those abilities? I haven't played a lot of MOBAs, so I don't know how those change/avoid the "retreat focused" gameplay. I am curious about what you mean, though.
@Nordic I think you're pulling this thread off topic.
Some upcoming changes to health bars, currently in testing:
question, can you make the health bar appear around the crosshairs? or something like that? so players still get feedback on how much health the last hit enemy has, but can't use it to track where the enemy has gone?
or at the top of the screen?
right now it's a giant red indicator where aliens are when in melee range, which does aid tracking.
Well someone in a pub just said it helps them on aliens too. So it could help a lerk for example almost always have aura in a sense. So yeah, it could help both sides and improve people's accuracy. The problem is, it might make good shooters even better cause they will just go after the life form they know they can kill. It will help all players though, so maybe the trade off is worth it. It does feel like a hack though when it's on. I guess this was one way to make it easier on people to play this game, this or increasing the size of the hitbox. I do understand the reasoning behind why they did this, it's very difficult to aim well in this game. It's also difficult to know what to focus on with a lot of craziness moving around you.
actually, this, now i can see what kind of damage lerk spikes are doing, i was always kind of iffy because of the damage type of lerking. never got the count down, so this is a big help actually.
i've also got something like 2000+ hours... but lerking lerking was never my thing.
As a Lerker, that's because the spikes output damage in "chunks" - highly inaccurate and awkward ROF.
Imagine an inaccurate LMG with the ROF of the flamethrower while trying to evade in 6 degrees of axis using a fragile lifeform... (and that's the least risky thing you can do as that lifeform) it's no wonder it's the most difficult things for rookies to learn.
I am pretty sure that they do not want too much punishment for losing a lifeform. Because beginners could lose motivation if they flash their lifeforms and have to wait too long to relifeform.
It's an incredibly stupid solution to give more lifeforms to "beginners flashing their lifeforms."
Proper "training" of said "beginners" (if they really exist) is best accomplished against other "beginners" - or some mode like the "defend the hive" gamemode that they created.
First of all, flashing a lifeform isn't more punishing than going 0:15 as a skulk which most "beginners" experience. Maybe we should give them double or triple the health to make them "not lose motivation?" On the other hand, if losing a lifeform while learning the game makes them quit it, maybe that's better for everyone including them.
players don't like the basic idea
devs tell players to try it out first
players find the idea is even worse than they thought it would be
Devs decide based on that what is really called for is more "fine tuning"
players don't like the basic idea
devs tell players to try it out first
players find the idea is even worse than they thought it would be
Devs decide based on that what is really called for is more "fine tuning"
And that's how I lost all faith in the dev team.
Keep in mind that most of the people advocating this change aren't even Devs, they're either Map testers or Playtesters, with regards to fine tuning, that you said, it should be removed with a hotfix i hope/assume.
Personal opinion incoming: I originally didn't expect too much of an 'advantage' from seeing the health bars as a marine, but I'll revise my opinion after some games during the past few days. I think I'm an average player (for my playtime), and I've gotten a few lifeform kills during the past games which I'm sure I only have gotten because the health bar allowed me to keep my focus on a single lifeform during chaotic situations, and in situations where I otherwise wouldn't have had much of a chance to track the enemy. This was most noticeable to me during a hive push when a defending lerk got some fair chip damage from me and was trying to make some manuvers behind the hive to get cover & dodge. The health bar made it fairly easy to track and get a few subsequent bullets on him and finish him, and it was the only thing with enough 'visual contrast' I could focus on - because 'half of a lerk wing flap behind hive in alien controlled, dim lit room' isn't that easy to track.
In short: I think the value of the health bar may be a situational issue (when I get 150 on a lerk I know that he's either going out or down), the improved tracking (especially in clustered/complex engagements) however is a big plus for the marine. It's pretty much a huge piece of anti-immersion, because all the environment, from atmospheric lightning to particles to spore/umbra clouds can be fully ignored as long as I can keep my eye on that little pink bar on the screen.
Adding it as a part of the crosshair might solve the tracking issue - imho. it's a non-neglectable and noticeable buff to marines.
players don't like the basic idea
devs tell players to try it out first
players find the idea is even worse than they thought it would be
Devs decide based on that what is really called for is more "fine tuning"
And that's how I lost all faith in the dev team.
Keep in mind that most of the people advocating this change aren't even Devs, they're either Map testers or Playtesters, with regards to fine tuning, that you said, it should be removed with a hotfix i hope/assume.
So @Remi isn't a dev? He's the one talking about upcoming changes that "increase the duration for aliens", "increase the visibility of the armor bar", and "add client side toggleability". None of those at all suggest that they are even considering "remove the healthbars as a failed idea".
They are also talking about implementing shamelesscookie's feeding mechanic, so yeah things are gonna get worse before they get better.
most No need to ignore the obvious (read my post again). Also remi-senpai isn't a bad person, i think it's more management then individual dev problems. You can see that in with regards to messages posted on discord in relation to features and or questions, none the less little things like adding in steam achievements, item drops and stimulating the economy is bringing in some extra $$$ on the side which can be seen as a win for NS2. Maybe when they renew the contracts we'll see a couple of new people on the team and a few people redacted? remi is worth an army of developers
You may think i'll be sucking up on this regard, but it's a genuine observation from my part as i was there when in the engine test days he was developing features for NS2 before the core original UWE team was even thinking about the priorities of implementing such features, that shows you the dedication. Also just because someone who coded and implemented a feature doesn't mean they had a final say in its implementation. It would be rude to fault that just for the sake of slaying "developers".
You should understand by now that a minority seem to speak for alot of people who don't want to be spoken for, like in regards to this health bar thing. I was against it from the very beginning an even told people to come onto these forums to post there distaste for it after they complained in game to all the wrong people. I had people mocking me saying stuff like "Yeah sure Archie, we'll tell them that like it's our own opinion yeah right it's just your opinion" and i was so confused by this saying that it made me wonder why someone would say such things for the sake of drama. Some of the playtesters or even maptesters should be ashamed of themselves for trying to hush peoples mindset by pretending to be authoritative on certain subjective situations. It's a problem with the badges too, people seem to think that maptesters are developers and playtesters are somehow the illegitimate child of Flayra or something, quite concerning to think about really but you would be surprised at how many people defend an ideology for the sake of just trying to fit in(rant, sorry)
edit:
Can we please get a hotfix out to disable the health bar? seems to be a little much with exo changes + grenade changes in one patch, i know you guys are working in a hurry to implement certain features but maybe pan them out a little?
Kouji_SanSr. Hινε UÏкεεÏεг - EUPT DeputyThe NetherlandsJoin Date: 2003-05-13Member: 16271Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
edited May 2016
I find it ironic that my posts as of late and my chat messages in Discord on these matters are seemingly ignored or the subject is changed, besides the odd community member chiming in... What's the matter am I pouring too much salt into open wounds to try and get a conversation going, yet seem to fail at that very concept. Because some people tend to sidestep my shots fired? Ignoring a problem doesn't make it go away and continuing with flawed premises only makes you dig a bigger hole, especially when you're unwilling to admit there are better ways to implement things... A continued train of these things are being pushed through as well as of late...
I'm not the only one being ignored either, there was this remark that "we take it all in and discuss it internally". Right so when are you going to remove this blatantly obvious failed concept and FIX/MODIFY the damn game/issue with the very valid suggestions made in these here threads. Instead of... Here it goes again, DRONING ON. I mean seriously are you completely blind to the rift that is being formed between all groups of the community, by this nonsensical and rather unprofessional approach of
"we have to test at the cost of everything -> Oh hey people who know their stuff seem to have valid points against it -> We push on anyway instead of reevaluating and perhaps modifying our concept with suggestions made"
Now of course as devs you are entitled to do whatever the hell you want, but with great power comes great responsibility And the constructive criticism on the forums have been buried by trolls/ring around the "off-topic"/toxicity/personal attacks and as a result have also become less "nice", so to speak. But it doesn't matter how the constructive criticism is posted as long as the message it tries to convey is valid. In multiple posts mind you, due to being buried by the aforementioned spam... The general consensus has been conveyed, also by many people who definitely know their stuff. ah well ...
Heh yep... My care meter is finally empty... Well done
For reasons of immersion alone, I would revert the health bars. They feel out of place and simply not fitting.
I personally find them distracting. Turning them off however, would put me into a disadvantage, since there are definitely situations where they're useful.
Could you try to accomplish better damage feedback with better visual and audio feedback?
- blood decals on models
- dripping blood
- different screams and moans depending on %hp
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
edited May 2016
As someone who is actually IN the Playtester discord channel (Ahem, unlike Archie) : No.. that is incorrect, regarding who is advocating for the change.
We are a varied team with varied opinions and there is no single mindset that applies throughout.
Comments
It also looks like gorges are going to get some love in the next patch.
https://trello.com/c/tMfbUYEn/128-298-lower-gorge-tunnel-cost-to-3-p-res
https://trello.com/c/Oq07TsHW/122-298-gorge-babbler-tweaks
https://trello.com/c/oPkZnJyI/119-298-gorge-webs-now-biomass-0
I doubt that is all they have planned. That is only what is shown in trello.
There are plenty of little things I would like to see added, although they are unlikely.
If you want to really balance healthbars, look at MOBAs: instead of more lifeforms to burn or run-to-crag tactics you can go invis, ultimate defense, reflect damage, teleport...; there are powerful nukes, stuns/disables and heals to manipulate that HP level.
Rly, NS2 with healthbars looks like a classic MOBA, but you have no nukes or abilities. So it boils down to focusing-retreat gameplay.
Why do all of your quotes say they come from me? Or is that happening for everyone else too?
@devel Can you explain more what you mean by those abilities? I haven't played a lot of MOBAs, so I don't know how those change/avoid the "retreat focused" gameplay. I am curious about what you mean, though.
@Nordic I think you're pulling this thread off topic.
Some upcoming changes to health bars, currently in testing:
What @devel means is that with MOBAs the game revolves around:
So as I said, the only one available in NS2 is the Onos stomp (and arguable web lol and spikewall?). The thing is, with this new knowledge about alien HP, you've basically removed Crowd Control/Baiting from the alien gameplay. And that my friend, is the Ultimate mistake as it has a way too huge impact on alien play. That HP knowledge is changing the game way too much, turning it more into a MOBA, BUT without the proper elements I mentioned above to be able to balance it out... Also MOBAs tend to be the only game that have accepted stuns/slowdowns, cause they are part of the how that game is played. *NS2 slowdowns and stuns, that would kill this game, so beware of even thinking about adding that nonsense. Unless you want the true inner NS2 shitstorm of drama to occur
Also my random thought might be a proper compromise by removing this HP information, but keeping the easier to track stuff for marines. I still don't think aliens even need this HP bar nonsense, they have Aura, Parasite, Alien Vision and Hive sight...
http://forums.unknownworlds.com/discussion/comment/2284513/#Comment_2284513
Seriously though, they're kind of hilarious.
It's probably OK, I don't see the argument of "this is not a RPG," when we're already drawing damage numbers... Tacky, but OK. You do volunteer some subtle but important information, which was hidden before. That's really the change - and that is how much health you have GOING INTO the engagement. Someone who may see you're not at full health to begin with may decide to elevate their experience to a higher-level tryhard moment than if they hadn't seen that.
When I first started playing NS2, I actually had the damage numbers off (but then I realized they're useful over time, and I'm shooting myself in the ass if I don't have them on, so I turned them on). I believe if we're going "hardcore," that's the way to go. Just the little red hitmarker. Then you will really HaveGonePro.
P.S. Just saw the next comment.
Terrible idea. It would also make killing lifeforms or weapons less meaningful. Kind of like how when you do something in a 12-woman server it matters a lot, like even a single kill of a marine or a skulk, because then maybe you can abuse the structures and there's nobody else nearby to prevent it.
Contrast that with a 65535-woman server. You kill two people, and there's 45 behind them or 57 nearby ready to kill you. So individual contributions become more and more meaningless.
That will be the increasingly worse if this change is in effect. Killed a lerk? Meh, he can just relerk. Biled a shotgun? No biggie, he's already bought another one.
Yes, it will make the game more "forgiving to næbs." (Do they even exist anymore, and why are we trying to cater to a population which doesn't exist for a game that's effectively EOL?) It will also make it less enjoyable for me.
Off topic: 25% faster pres accumulation sounds like it's _really_ going to hurt marines - now late game aliens will be even harder to take down if they can pump out onos 25% faster.
I hope UWE is considering what happens when you increase pres accumulation speed. It really comes down to the right balance. If they are trying to "speed" up the game in a sense then it could still work. If this takes away the risk/reward of keeping a lifeform alive/killing a lifeform then this might ruin what is great about ns2.
A big part of the game is getting the life forms down (or pushing them constantly out of the room) and having the other team go through pain for losing a life form quickly. If there is no down time, then there is no risk. Same thing with sgs...it should be painful to lose sgs in a hive rush that didn't go well. Or a fight that didn't go the marines way and their sgs got biled. There still has to be the risk there and it should tip the scales in the other teams advantage or this could turn into a standard shooter=boring.
Yes, @Kouji_San has correctly described that.
You can initiate a teamfight and, as a result, be on low HP (until your team comes in about 2-3 seconds), but the enemy players won't waste big ultimate nukes on you because you can pop your temporary damage reflection. Then your team will come and the enemy will be busy casting ultimates on them, so you'll be still lurking around with your pretty useful secondary stun.
The target, you've initiated on, is healed by his allies. So, the enemy team is kind of on full HP, but maybe they've got too many healing/saveup abilities on cooldown. In an ideal teamfight these abilities were needed for a different player. And you're still there with these stuns that are making retreat without losses impossible.
There are also damage dealers with vampirism. Their game is to keep biting the enemy while receiving tones of damage. If they stop chewing, they melt very fast. So, their disengagement needs stun help from the team.
HP and time is traded for the cooldowns of the nukes and stuns. Abilities counter other abilities in certain windows of time and space.
I am pretty sure that they do not want too much punishment for losing a lifeform. Because beginners could lose motivation if they flash their lifeforms and have to wait too long to relifeform.
I do not see a reason to touch balance here, times and res for lifeforms are already very balanced.
It does not feel fun. It feels completely and utterly cheap. I can now play more efficiently because there is no ambiguity as to HP. Pistol or reload? Bite or spike? Here's some free help that is even more accurate than aura with exact hp values. Oh hey, parasite kill HP! You are not just helping rookies, vets arguably benefit even more from this which in turn contributes to rookies getting stomped harder. There is also the already often brought up issue of aliens being unable to take the risk of staying in the room when low to contribute to winning a fight. And all the new engagements exposes players going in low / not on full HP.
And really, letting aliens replace their lifeforms quicker doesn't help. You are removing depth from combat. Its not just a balance issue.
Conversely, it raises the skill floor for Aliens.
actually, this, now i can see what kind of damage lerk spikes are doing, i was always kind of iffy because of the damage type of lerking. never got the count down, so this is a big help actually.
i've also got something like 2000+ hours... but lerking lerking was never my thing.
question, can you make the health bar appear around the crosshairs? or something like that? so players still get feedback on how much health the last hit enemy has, but can't use it to track where the enemy has gone?
or at the top of the screen?
right now it's a giant red indicator where aliens are when in melee range, which does aid tracking.
Imagine an inaccurate LMG with the ROF of the flamethrower while trying to evade in 6 degrees of axis using a fragile lifeform... (and that's the least risky thing you can do as that lifeform) it's no wonder it's the most difficult things for rookies to learn.
It's an incredibly stupid solution to give more lifeforms to "beginners flashing their lifeforms."
Proper "training" of said "beginners" (if they really exist) is best accomplished against other "beginners" - or some mode like the "defend the hive" gamemode that they created.
First of all, flashing a lifeform isn't more punishing than going 0:15 as a skulk which most "beginners" experience. Maybe we should give them double or triple the health to make them "not lose motivation?" On the other hand, if losing a lifeform while learning the game makes them quit it, maybe that's better for everyone including them.
players don't like the basic idea
devs tell players to try it out first
players find the idea is even worse than they thought it would be
Devs decide based on that what is really called for is more "fine tuning"
And that's how I lost all faith in the dev team.
Keep in mind that most of the people advocating this change aren't even Devs, they're either Map testers or Playtesters, with regards to fine tuning, that you said, it should be removed with a hotfix i hope/assume.
In short: I think the value of the health bar may be a situational issue (when I get 150 on a lerk I know that he's either going out or down), the improved tracking (especially in clustered/complex engagements) however is a big plus for the marine. It's pretty much a huge piece of anti-immersion, because all the environment, from atmospheric lightning to particles to spore/umbra clouds can be fully ignored as long as I can keep my eye on that little pink bar on the screen.
Adding it as a part of the crosshair might solve the tracking issue - imho. it's a non-neglectable and noticeable buff to marines.
So @Remi isn't a dev? He's the one talking about upcoming changes that "increase the duration for aliens", "increase the visibility of the armor bar", and "add client side toggleability". None of those at all suggest that they are even considering "remove the healthbars as a failed idea".
They are also talking about implementing shamelesscookie's feeding mechanic, so yeah things are gonna get worse before they get better.
most No need to ignore the obvious (read my post again). Also remi-senpai isn't a bad person, i think it's more management then individual dev problems. You can see that in with regards to messages posted on discord in relation to features and or questions, none the less little things like adding in steam achievements, item drops and stimulating the economy is bringing in some extra $$$ on the side which can be seen as a win for NS2. Maybe when they renew the contracts we'll see a couple of new people on the team and a few people redacted? remi is worth an army of developers
You may think i'll be sucking up on this regard, but it's a genuine observation from my part as i was there when in the engine test days he was developing features for NS2 before the core original UWE team was even thinking about the priorities of implementing such features, that shows you the dedication. Also just because someone who coded and implemented a feature doesn't mean they had a final say in its implementation. It would be rude to fault that just for the sake of slaying "developers".
You should understand by now that a minority seem to speak for alot of people who don't want to be spoken for, like in regards to this health bar thing. I was against it from the very beginning an even told people to come onto these forums to post there distaste for it after they complained in game to all the wrong people. I had people mocking me saying stuff like "Yeah sure Archie, we'll tell them that like it's our own opinion yeah right it's just your opinion" and i was so confused by this saying that it made me wonder why someone would say such things for the sake of drama. Some of the playtesters or even maptesters should be ashamed of themselves for trying to hush peoples mindset by pretending to be authoritative on certain subjective situations. It's a problem with the badges too, people seem to think that maptesters are developers and playtesters are somehow the illegitimate child of Flayra or something, quite concerning to think about really but you would be surprised at how many people defend an ideology for the sake of just trying to fit in(rant, sorry)
edit:
Can we please get a hotfix out to disable the health bar? seems to be a little much with exo changes + grenade changes in one patch, i know you guys are working in a hurry to implement certain features but maybe pan them out a little?
I'm not the only one being ignored either, there was this remark that "we take it all in and discuss it internally". Right so when are you going to remove this blatantly obvious failed concept and FIX/MODIFY the damn game/issue with the very valid suggestions made in these here threads. Instead of... Here it goes again, DRONING ON. I mean seriously are you completely blind to the rift that is being formed between all groups of the community, by this nonsensical and rather unprofessional approach of
"we have to test at the cost of everything -> Oh hey people who know their stuff seem to have valid points against it -> We push on anyway instead of reevaluating and perhaps modifying our concept with suggestions made"
Now of course as devs you are entitled to do whatever the hell you want, but with great power comes great responsibility
Heh yep... My care meter is finally empty... Well done
I personally find them distracting. Turning them off however, would put me into a disadvantage, since there are definitely situations where they're useful.
Could you try to accomplish better damage feedback with better visual and audio feedback?
- blood decals on models
- dripping blood
- different screams and moans depending on %hp
We are a varied team with varied opinions and there is no single mindset that applies throughout.