@remi. It makes it easier/more fun for marine only.. For alien it's painful at times. Especially as skulk.. I'm a fairly decent skulk but since these hp bars were added i struggle for every kill.
I think maybe reducing the size of skulks a little might help. I've heard that they used to be much smaller.
Also I'd love to see onos devour return as a cooldown ability researched on 9 biomass alongside stomp. It's fun as hell to use, could potentially be used as a life saver in times when you're low and have 1 marine to deal with, and it can't really be considered overpowered...
Maybe like 2-3 minutes to digest the marine before you can devour another. Of course the marine could respawn after a short delay since they're printed/cloned or whatever..
Don't assume playtesters have a fundamentally different opinions than those seen on these forums. Some playtesters support the change and others don't. We give feedback just like the rest of you, we just do it first.
So to sum it all up, it harms immersion, helps people aim better in a stupid way (which could be fixed with @amoral 's suggestion of attaching it to the crosshair), and it removes certain gameplay mechanics.
After playing a few hours with these changes on aliens it certainly seems like skulks die a lot quicker especially if you are pack playing. I think I lost all but 1 alien round..... Every engagement even vs lower skilled players was a tough engagement that I barely survived..... Escaping as higher lifeforms was also waaaay harder.
I really really think you should keep the core idea of indicating health but move it to a location that does not assist in tracking and add clutter/destroy immersion like on the HUD as has been recommended multiple times in this thread by myself and others. Otherwise you will need to do something to counteract this buff especially on skulks (make them smaller, higher HP, faster, etc.) Which just snowballs the number of changes needed to balance this change......
Otherwise I think I'll stick to Marines for the next bit.....
Shooting/tracking skulks close range is now ridiculously easy, so I guess that objective is successful. However this buffs experienced players like myself even more so. Why isn't this feature restricted to Rookie-Only servers? Wouldn't that be way more logical?
Shooting/tracking skulks close range is now ridiculously easy, so I guess that objective is successful. However this buffs experienced players like myself even more so. Why isn't this feature restricted to Rookie-Only servers? Wouldn't that be way more logical?
I see this argument a lot and I still can't understand why people think its a good one...
By making something like that rookie server only, the new players will get used to playing the game with lots of mechanics that will then be removed from them... forever... so when they leave rookie servers, they are in essence playing a totally different game.
the knock on effects of making something "rookie only" makes the likelihood of people sticking around after the rookie period much smaller, because they just spent a few hours learning to play the game, and now they have to start from the beginning again, but now, against experienced players.
Shooting/tracking skulks close range is now ridiculously easy, so I guess that objective is successful. However this buffs experienced players like myself even more so. Why isn't this feature restricted to Rookie-Only servers? Wouldn't that be way more logical?
I see this argument a lot and I still can't understand why people think its a good one...
By making something like that rookie server only, the new players will get used to playing the game with lots of mechanics that will then be removed from them... forever... so when they leave rookie servers, they are in essence playing a totally different game.
the knock on effects of making something "rookie only" makes the likelihood of people sticking around after the rookie period much smaller, because they just spent a few hours learning to play the game, and now they have to start from the beginning again, but now, against experienced players.
You are right, so the only good solution would be removing the health bars. But devs will not do that, so having it only on rookie servers is better than having it everywhere.
You are right, so the only good solution would be removing the health bars. But devs will not do that, so having it only on rookie servers is better than having it everywhere.
removing healthbars isn't a solution I like personally... I think healthbars are a good thing and genuinely hope they stay in... and making the experience drastically different on rookie servers is never a good idea, ever, the ONLY thing a rookie server should do is provide a "pro-free" environment where new players can learn a bit about the game without being facerolled by people with 1k+ hours.
I understand that some people dislike healthbars, but some people disliked the medpack change too, and some people ragequit the game with b250... others ragequit with reinforced... you can't always please everyone everytime, its not possible... but healthbars do make the game more accessible, and in the end, that is a good thing.
remi-senpai isn't a bad person ... You may think i'll be sucking up on this regard, but it's a genuine observation from my part as i was there when in the engine test days he was developing features for NS2 before the core original UWE team was even thinking about the priorities of implementing such features, that shows you the dedication.
Thanks for the vote of confidence. I honestly don't remember what I was doing during the engine test days.
i think it's more management then individual dev problems. ... Also just because someone who coded and implemented a feature doesn't mean they had a final say in its implementation.
I don't think this is a management problem, and although you are right that in game development often times the person implementing isn't the one designing, in this case, this is a feature I believe in and did design.
You should understand by now that a minority seem to speak for alot of people who don't want to be spoken for, like in regards to this health bar thing. ... Some of the playtesters or even maptesters should be ashamed of themselves for trying to hush peoples mindset by pretending to be authoritative on certain subjective situations.
As Iron and Nordic both pointed out, the playtesters, maptesters, and even devs all are individual people who all have their own opinions. Some people like it, some people don't, some like parts of it, and not others, some are reserving judgement until the meta has had time to adjust to the new norms. The one constant is that we all share our opinions in a constructive way and listen to each other's feedback. I've been impressed with this communities demonstrated ability to do the same while discussing the changes made in 297!
Can we please get a hotfix out to disable the health bar? seems to be a little much with exo changes + grenade changes in one patch, i know you guys are working in a hurry to implement certain features but maybe pan them out a little?
A new patch should be going out this week with more changes that should help swing the balance. Because of that, putting together a hotfix right now wouldn't be worth it, since it could introduce compatibility issues for modders. Also, based on the stats I have seen, the balance has not drastically shifted in 297 despite the changes we have put in.
Nordic and I (mostly @Nordic) are still digging through the stats, so that may not be the final word on the balance... but just know we are looking into it and keeping an eye on that as well, and doing so on a deeper level than just raw win/loss rates.
I've written this elsewhere, but before we even get into the larger issue of how this affects either the meta or routine combat, I take issue with the healthbars from the standpoint of the information/feedback they offer: being partially colorblind, it's a lot harder for me to zero in on the current status of a red bar than it is to zero in on unambiguous damage numbers in the middle of combat. Luckily I play with server-side blood enabled via NS2+, but if that incompatibility is fixed, I'll be hoping for/relying on the option to toggle the healthbars off.
But doing so would put me at a significant disadvantage for the reasons everyone in this thread has already mentioned.
These bars make a big difference re: the effect they have on 1) tracking (both in and outside of combat; it's super easy to find aliens you've damaged who go on to hide in or around structure nests, and I find it even easier to keep a bead on an ambushing skulk than I did before), 2) alien play in general (bluffing, etc.), 3) immersion (one could argue the same about damage numbers, I suppose, but they don't function in the same way). They dramatically diminish the primary alien combat mechanism, which is ambushing and resetting.
I understand the desire to not have the rookie experience feel significantly different than the full experience, but this is a case where I think the change - if it's going to stick around - should be limited to new players in gated areas as a means of familiarizing them with the timing and patterns of combat. By all means: have a message which informs rookies of rookie server differences at the start of every round. The muscle memory they'll go on to develop will still apply to regular servers (to an extent). But this simply changes too much about the fundamental NS2 dynamic for me to be in support of it across the board. I'm a fan of many of the changes that have been introduced lately, but not this one.
Earlier in the thread someone floated the idea of tying the healthbar to the crosshair. This is okay, I suppose. But many people, myself included, play with minimal crosshairs on whenever possible. And I don't think it would be too much work to quickly mouseover all available targets to determine which needs bullets first. If the information is going to be kept, I'd prefer that more time be spent on the UI so that most of the big problems being described get resolved.
Perhaps alien models should receive an unobtrusive HUD overlay *while you're aiming/firing at them*, and this overlay can convey some information about their current status. Think of this as a limited form of "alien vision" which helps marines, but only when they're directly pointing at an alien they've damaged. It should last no longer than a second or two seconds after damaging an alien. The alien model would light up (slightly) and their health would be indicated via the overlay itself. One example: give the overlay glow an opacity setting so that alien texture details still show up, and have the % of the alien's body covered with the overlay represent the alien's current health. The mechanism could be additive (i.e., the overlay fills up as the alien takes damage; more overlay = more damage has been done) or subtractive (i.e., the overlay drains as the alien takes damage; more overlay = the alien has more health). To tie this into the game's commander mechanics, this could be researchable (cheap, available early).
This would:
Tie the information to the alien model itself, as opposed to a floating bar near the alien.
Allow the information to be hidden when the alien is hidden.
Prevent easy tracking when the alien hides beside a hive or in a structure nest.
Give marines the exact same information the health bars do while the marines are actively shooting a target, but no longer than that.
Have 0 impact on immersion; it's familiar to existing mechanics (scans, the various forms of alien vision, etc.)
Not negatively influence ambushing.
Have a similar but less dramatic effect on bluffing. More information would be available to marines in general (they'd still have to communicate the info/coordinate their firing), but it wouldn't be as obvious in the heat of battle (no floating bar), and would only last for a second or so after shooting (and would therefore reset as soon as you had to reload or the alien left your field of view).
EDIT: Here's a super rough example of what I'm talking about. This is only a proof of concept.
You could go with a single color for the overlay (instead of what I'm showing below). You could make the colors customizable via user settings, if you wanted. You could have the color change depending on health status (as I've indicated). You could even have it go in the opposite direction, where the overlay represents the amount of damage an alien has already taken (so that it fills up as the alien is shot). You could also stick with just an outline instead of a full-on overlay. It could be researchable or not. Again, there are options. But the fundamental points are: the alien model would provide all of the health data, this data would not be available when the alien is not in sight, the data would reset if you haven't been actively shooting the alien in the last second or so, and there would be no obtrusive health bar to aid with tracking.
I've written this elsewhere, but before we even get into the larger issue of how this affects the meta, I take issue with the healthbars from the standpoint of the information/feedback they offer: being partially colorblind, it's a lot harder for me to zero in on the current status of a red bar than it is to zero in on unambiguous damage numbers in the middle of combat. Luckily I play with server-side blood enabled via NS2+, but if that incompatibility is fixed, I'll be hoping for/relying on the option to toggle the healthbars off.
Toggle has already been implemented and will be in the next patch. I feared that, regarding the colorblind issue. I actually tested a fuchsia health bar first because I believe that would have been easier for you to see, but I thought the response to that would have been far more negative (because pink). Anyways, my point is that the colorblind accessibility issues are on my radar, and I'd like to improve that aspect of it.
I've written this elsewhere, but before we even get into the larger issue of how this affects the meta, I take issue with the healthbars from the standpoint of the information/feedback they offer: being partially colorblind, it's a lot harder for me to zero in on the current status of a red bar than it is to zero in on unambiguous damage numbers in the middle of combat. Luckily I play with server-side blood enabled via NS2+, but if that incompatibility is fixed, I'll be hoping for/relying on the option to toggle the healthbars off.
Toggle has already been implemented and will be in the next patch. I feared that, regarding the colorblind issue. I actually tested a fuchsia health bar first because I believe that would have been easier for you to see, but I thought the response to that would have been far more negative (because pink). Anyways, my point is that the colorblind accessibility issues are on my radar, and I'd like to improve that aspect of it.
I caught what you mentioned about accessibility before, and I really appreciate it. Thanks!
My issues with the specific implementation have grown a little in the interim, so I've gone on to enumerate those concerns.
Generally speaking, I think you guys are trying to do a solid thing here. But I think the unintended consequences (presumably unintended, anyway) are a bit too heavy with the current implementation. I'm sure there are other ways to convey the data which are less of a shooting aid for marines (and/or an occasional form of visual clutter, per IronHorse's example earlier in the thread). I offered a quick attempt at an alternate idea at the end of the last post, but I'm sure there are others.
I don't care about tracking aid of the healthbars. Aliens just can learn to be more vicious in their micro (poor rookies, but I can't speak for them).
But dumbing down the game by showing the absolute health level is just incomprehensible: removing fun and easy-to-execute baiting/bluffing tactics does no good.
FrozenNew York, NYJoin Date: 2010-07-02Member: 72228Members, Constellation
I killed a JP last night with 3 parasites and 1 bite. I would have never done that without the health bars. It's ridiculous. How would I know he doesn't have 3+ armor remaining otherwise.
Also, I had server confirmed blood on so the toggle can't come soon enough. I hate this shit. I don't even care if others have it, this ruins the game for me in too much of a way. I don't even and never would use draw damage.
I killed a JP last night with 3 parasites and 1 bite. I would have never done that without the health bars. It's ridiculous. How would I know he doesn't have 3+ armor remaining otherwise.
Also, I had server confirmed blood on so the toggle can't come soon enough. I hate this ****. I don't even care if others have it, this ruins the game for me in too much of a way. I don't even and never would use draw damage.
Sadly, I think the proponents of health bars sees this as a plus rather than as a minus.
I'd argue that the tracking is way more of an issue re: "dumbing down" the game since it has such an impact on tactical decision-making. When one of the two sides of an asymmetric game is heavily dependent on ambush tactics, any kind of high contrast floating bar visible through/around structures is going to have a huge impact on their viability in countless skirmishes, and this will have an aggregate impact on game balance.
Providing the absolute health level matters and will help you choose targets if you've damaged a number of them in a short amount of time, but it mostly matters if the information is displayed longer than is necessary (which results in the scenario I've described becoming a common one). We can define "as long as is necessary" by using damage numbers as a baseline. Most of us are used to them, they don't last for a long time, and they don't provide a persistent tactical advantage re: combat mechanics (i.e., shooting, tracking, etc.). So given the change, regardless of how the health information is displayed, it shouldn't be available much longer than damage numbers are.
To me, this is more about information display conditions than about the principle motivating the change. Because if you have working knowledge of a lifeform's max health and know how much you've altered that health (e.g., damage numbers), it becomes clear how much hp remains (within a range of possible health values). I agree that it's "dumbing things down" to provide that information in a more visually absolute way, but that's mostly the case insofar as quick math is no longer necessary.
If you meatshot a fade for ~220 and it retreats, you know its health value because you're familiar with the game (if not absolutely, then relatively). You can communicate this to your team and hopefully they'll listen, set up a pinch, etc. But it's not as if this information is magically transferred to the minds of your teammates. It's still up to you to communicate it.
The information really shouldn't be available continuously. If you shoot an alien or if an alien bites a marine, damage numbers appear and quickly vanish. That's about the length of time that any other method of displaying this information should be available. And that's why a floating health bar appears so out of place: it isn't tied to the HUD in an intuitive way, and in order to be readable, it needs to be kept on the screen for game-altering lengths of time. This will do one of three things: it'll get in the way (IronHorse's hallway example), it'll make tracking much easier (everyone in this thread), or it'll result in tactical changes (everyone targeting a clearly damaged lifeform).
As such, if you're going to use a non-numerical way of displaying health information, you need to use an approach that is easily and instantaneously visible, but which stops as soon as it's no longer being "earned" (by successfully and continuously attacking). The best way I can think to accomplish that is via a very temporary model overlay which provides health data at-a-glance. This still offers more than damage numbers (because it measures the absolute health value), but I could see it being implemented in a much less gamebreaking way than health bars currently are.
As such, if you're going to use a non-numerical way of displaying health information, you need to use an approach that is easily and instantaneously visible, but which stops as soon as it's no longer being "earned" (by successfully and continuously attacking). The best way I can think to accomplish that is via a very temporary model overlay which provides health data at-a-glance. This still offers more than damage numbers (because it measures the absolute health value), but I could see it being implemented in a much less gamebreaking way than health bars currently are.
And your suggestions about shortening the display time by replacing the displayed shape just not coherent. No relation between display time and shape. There is logic in displaying directly on the models, but you're using wrong arguments (and I won't help you, because I've got bigger problem with absolute HP levels).
If you meatshot a fade for ~220 and it retreats, you know its health value because you're familiar with the game (if not absolutely, then relatively). You can communicate this to your team and hopefully they'll listen, set up a pinch, etc. But it's not as if this information is magically transferred to the minds of your teammates. It's still up to you to communicate it.
Fade returns and you don't know the HP without healthbars. Maybe there is a proxy crag or gorge.
If a skulk gets into an engagement, manages to land a parasite or two, and lives - that's a success. It's typically in bad pub games when virtually every skirmish becomes an all-in commitment. Do the health bars help marine tracking in those scenarios? Yes. But they also influence ambushing: resetting an ambush or altering your movement mid-combat is hugely important. Wall climbing, altering your path, etc. Visible health bars dramatically undercut the ability to get away, to reset, to scurry away into a vent so as to harass res. That's what I'm referring to when I talk about ambush tactics: not just the initial ambush, but the combat flow from that point forward. You can argue that players will just have to be more "vicious" in the micro, but most alien players are already too single-minded when they fight. If the new goal is to out-DPS the marine team's superior, new tracking ability, it's just not going to happen. This is why the health bars are so troublesome re: the impact they have on the micro scale.
I don't think you understand my latter point, either. There are actually two broad goals being considered. I'm attempting to seek a compatible option between what the developers are trying to do, and what the people (myself included) in this thread want.
In that last paragraph, I'm first addressing the goal of the developers by restating it: to use a non-numerical method of displaying health information. If they're not limiting themselves to damage numbers, and if they want a visual option, that means that we need to think about visual solutions. Secondly, I'm taking into account the majority of complaints levied in this thread: the complaints about tracking, about immersion, and so on. The health bars are obtrusive, they have unintended consequences, they last too long.
So if we take the goal and the problems into consideration, we need a visual option that doesn't last much longer than damage numbers do, which doesn't unduly aid with combat tracking, which isn't visually obtrusive, and which is instantly readable. Hence: model overlays that disappear quickly.
Fade returns and you don't know the HP without healthbars. Maybe there is a proxy crag or gorge.
Fade returns and you don't know the HP unless you hit it again. Because the health information display vanished as soon as you stopped damaging the fade initially (or as soon as it rounded the corner). Yes, there are going to be a subset of scenarios in which the average player has more information than they did before, but if the health display is designed with all of this in mind, the results will be less dramatic than they are right now.
AsranielJoin Date: 2002-06-03Member: 724Members, Playtest Lead, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow, Subnautica Playtester, Retired Community Developer
Agreed, this is a plus. It really helps players to understand the mechanics of the game, instead of relying on hidden values.
Does it change the gameplay? Yes. But i dont think thats a bad thing.
As remi also mentioned, balance seems not affected by it (but a more detailed analysis would be necessary), so personally i'm quite happy with the change.
Agreed, this is a plus. It really helps players to understand the mechanics of the game, instead of relying on hidden values.
Does it change the gameplay? Yes. But i dont think thats a bad thing.
As remi also mentioned, balance seems not affected by it (but a more detailed analysis would be necessary), so personally i'm quite happy with the change.
That's the thing. You are making the game shallower. Balance is not the only thing at stake here.
I expressed it earlier, but while you guys think this is more "fun", I just think its "cheap". And disabling it will just put me at a disadvantage, which is silly.
Need for stronger micro doesn't matter when we're talking about fun of the gameplay. In Hive2 you'll have separate elo for marines and aliens, so you'll just be having harder time in rising the alien elo. But when in-game, it'll always be even, no problem.
But loosing strategies and tactics (macro) is about loosing fun.
In that last paragraph, I'm first addressing the goal of the developers by restating it: to use a non-numerical method of displaying health information.
If you will be restating, you'll have not only the weak arguments, but also your inaccurate assumptions.
For now you're burying a binary problems (they are or they aren't; tactics existed or tactics lost) under the walls of text that are discussing some tweaks that gradually soften some parameters.
In that last paragraph, I'm first addressing the goal of the developers by restating it: to use a non-numerical method of displaying health information.
If you will be restating, you'll have not only the weak arguments, but also your inaccurate assumptions.
For now you're burying a binary problems (they are or they aren't; tactics existed or tactics lost) under the walls of text that are discussing some tweaks that gradually soften some parameters.
Not really. There's a distinction between understanding someone's goal and supporting the methodology they used to achieve it. I understand the goal. I dislike the current method of getting there. This means that I don't agree with a number of the arguments used to justify the current implementation.
You're welcome to describe what I'm doing as merely "discussing some tweaks that gradually soften some parameters" but what I'm really doing is brainstorming alternate UI approaches which attempt to achieve the development team's stated goals without introducing so many problems. But, yes: I'm not willing to reduce this to a binary problem in my discussion of it, because that's wholly unproductive as anything other than a form of protest. And the reason is: grey areas, compromises, and alternate approaches exist.
brainstorming alternate UI approaches which attempt to achieve the development team's stated goals without introducing so many problems.
Easy. Stated goals verbatim:
Better visual damage feedback about time to kill than damage numbers
Engagements are less binary for new players
Helps to focus on a target
Better visual damage feedback about time to kill than damage numbers: translate damage numbers (not absolute value of the health left) to color directly on the model (as you proposed). More damage done = more redder. When damage numbers were starting from zero again - the new color feature should be resetting itself too.
Engagements are less binary: post-death fight recap - damage dealt/received, sources of damage, HP left on the enemies.
Helps focus on target: solid red color on the model helps.
Since damage numbers have always been fine what about making the health "bar" smaller/more compact and have it show where the floating numbers did? (And disappear just as quickly)
This would remove the tracking assist, which quite frankly the more i play with the more i hate.
My survivability as skulk had plummeted so much I've actually started to not engage marines at all and just focus on biting res instead. When marines show up to save the extractor I just bail and run off to another because my chances of killing a marine with this aim assist have become so low.
And again people keep throwing out the "oh well you have to hit them first" argument.. Which is part of the reason why it's so bad!! It helps high skill players a lot more than low skill rookies...
A high skill vet is going to be spot on with their aim the instant the alien appears, giving them the aim assist and health info far quicker (and longer) than any casual player or rookie...
Unless skulks get buffed (slightly smaller model/hitbox maybe) or the tracking assist aspect of it is removed I don't see how things can be balanced back out...
Sigh. After some thought, it feels like the devs are assuming all engagements are at a known full HP and also 1v1.
You shouldn't know their HP beforehand, including armour/biomass/carapace level/damage from previous engagements nor the damage your teammates dealt nor the ability to calculate all the above instantly. The extra tracking boost is just salt on the wound at this point.
NS2 has been dead for quite some time. Think of all these changes as a giant experiment so if another NS does come out years down the road, the devs will have a better idea on what works and what doesn't.
I personally agree with most of the negative feedback here but don't really care at this point. Let the experimental sandbox happen.
NS2 has been dead for quite some time. Think of all these changes as a giant experiment so if another NS does come out years down the road, the devs will have a better idea on what works and what doesn't.
I personally agree with most of the negative feedback here but don't really care at this point. Let the experimental sandbox happen.
I understand this sentiment, but this is not how it should work! Ns2 is a finished, delivered product. You can't just go "alright, we're gonna start experimenting on the few guys of you that are left now that the game is almost dead" 3 years in. Again, you can use a balance mod a la sewlek for this.
As for the bars, I'd like to throw colored damage numbers into the ring. The amount of hp would correlate with the numbers drawn on hits. It's a middle ground. You can shout "That fade is red", but you won't know "That marine's one parasite away from death". And rookies still get feedback on how much hp the enemy had left, roughly.
I've been absent for the last few weeks for work so forgive me for skipping large swathes of the arguments presented here.
I just wanted to add my 2 cents and say that the health bars are a terrible addition to the game and the biggest benefit is given to both rookies and pro players and I feel like they give least marginal benefit to the veterans of average skill. This will just inevitably lead to greater inequality in skill base and further the problems NS2 already has.
Comments
I think maybe reducing the size of skulks a little might help. I've heard that they used to be much smaller.
Also I'd love to see onos devour return as a cooldown ability researched on 9 biomass alongside stomp. It's fun as hell to use, could potentially be used as a life saver in times when you're low and have 1 marine to deal with, and it can't really be considered overpowered...
Maybe like 2-3 minutes to digest the marine before you can devour another. Of course the marine could respawn after a short delay since they're printed/cloned or whatever..
I really really think you should keep the core idea of indicating health but move it to a location that does not assist in tracking and add clutter/destroy immersion like on the HUD as has been recommended multiple times in this thread by myself and others. Otherwise you will need to do something to counteract this buff especially on skulks (make them smaller, higher HP, faster, etc.) Which just snowballs the number of changes needed to balance this change......
Otherwise I think I'll stick to Marines for the next bit.....
I see this argument a lot and I still can't understand why people think its a good one...
By making something like that rookie server only, the new players will get used to playing the game with lots of mechanics that will then be removed from them... forever... so when they leave rookie servers, they are in essence playing a totally different game.
the knock on effects of making something "rookie only" makes the likelihood of people sticking around after the rookie period much smaller, because they just spent a few hours learning to play the game, and now they have to start from the beginning again, but now, against experienced players.
You are right, so the only good solution would be removing the health bars. But devs will not do that, so having it only on rookie servers is better than having it everywhere.
removing healthbars isn't a solution I like personally... I think healthbars are a good thing and genuinely hope they stay in... and making the experience drastically different on rookie servers is never a good idea, ever, the ONLY thing a rookie server should do is provide a "pro-free" environment where new players can learn a bit about the game without being facerolled by people with 1k+ hours.
I understand that some people dislike healthbars, but some people disliked the medpack change too, and some people ragequit the game with b250... others ragequit with reinforced... you can't always please everyone everytime, its not possible... but healthbars do make the game more accessible, and in the end, that is a good thing.
I don't think this is a management problem, and although you are right that in game development often times the person implementing isn't the one designing, in this case, this is a feature I believe in and did design.
As Iron and Nordic both pointed out, the playtesters, maptesters, and even devs all are individual people who all have their own opinions. Some people like it, some people don't, some like parts of it, and not others, some are reserving judgement until the meta has had time to adjust to the new norms. The one constant is that we all share our opinions in a constructive way and listen to each other's feedback. I've been impressed with this communities demonstrated ability to do the same while discussing the changes made in 297!
A new patch should be going out this week with more changes that should help swing the balance. Because of that, putting together a hotfix right now wouldn't be worth it, since it could introduce compatibility issues for modders. Also, based on the stats I have seen, the balance has not drastically shifted in 297 despite the changes we have put in.
Nordic and I (mostly @Nordic) are still digging through the stats, so that may not be the final word on the balance... but just know we are looking into it and keeping an eye on that as well, and doing so on a deeper level than just raw win/loss rates.
But doing so would put me at a significant disadvantage for the reasons everyone in this thread has already mentioned.
These bars make a big difference re: the effect they have on 1) tracking (both in and outside of combat; it's super easy to find aliens you've damaged who go on to hide in or around structure nests, and I find it even easier to keep a bead on an ambushing skulk than I did before), 2) alien play in general (bluffing, etc.), 3) immersion (one could argue the same about damage numbers, I suppose, but they don't function in the same way). They dramatically diminish the primary alien combat mechanism, which is ambushing and resetting.
I understand the desire to not have the rookie experience feel significantly different than the full experience, but this is a case where I think the change - if it's going to stick around - should be limited to new players in gated areas as a means of familiarizing them with the timing and patterns of combat. By all means: have a message which informs rookies of rookie server differences at the start of every round. The muscle memory they'll go on to develop will still apply to regular servers (to an extent). But this simply changes too much about the fundamental NS2 dynamic for me to be in support of it across the board. I'm a fan of many of the changes that have been introduced lately, but not this one.
Earlier in the thread someone floated the idea of tying the healthbar to the crosshair. This is okay, I suppose. But many people, myself included, play with minimal crosshairs on whenever possible. And I don't think it would be too much work to quickly mouseover all available targets to determine which needs bullets first. If the information is going to be kept, I'd prefer that more time be spent on the UI so that most of the big problems being described get resolved.
Perhaps alien models should receive an unobtrusive HUD overlay *while you're aiming/firing at them*, and this overlay can convey some information about their current status. Think of this as a limited form of "alien vision" which helps marines, but only when they're directly pointing at an alien they've damaged. It should last no longer than a second or two seconds after damaging an alien. The alien model would light up (slightly) and their health would be indicated via the overlay itself. One example: give the overlay glow an opacity setting so that alien texture details still show up, and have the % of the alien's body covered with the overlay represent the alien's current health. The mechanism could be additive (i.e., the overlay fills up as the alien takes damage; more overlay = more damage has been done) or subtractive (i.e., the overlay drains as the alien takes damage; more overlay = the alien has more health). To tie this into the game's commander mechanics, this could be researchable (cheap, available early).
This would:
EDIT: Here's a super rough example of what I'm talking about. This is only a proof of concept.
You could go with a single color for the overlay (instead of what I'm showing below). You could make the colors customizable via user settings, if you wanted. You could have the color change depending on health status (as I've indicated). You could even have it go in the opposite direction, where the overlay represents the amount of damage an alien has already taken (so that it fills up as the alien is shot). You could also stick with just an outline instead of a full-on overlay. It could be researchable or not. Again, there are options. But the fundamental points are: the alien model would provide all of the health data, this data would not be available when the alien is not in sight, the data would reset if you haven't been actively shooting the alien in the last second or so, and there would be no obtrusive health bar to aid with tracking.
My issues with the specific implementation have grown a little in the interim, so I've gone on to enumerate those concerns.
Generally speaking, I think you guys are trying to do a solid thing here. But I think the unintended consequences (presumably unintended, anyway) are a bit too heavy with the current implementation. I'm sure there are other ways to convey the data which are less of a shooting aid for marines (and/or an occasional form of visual clutter, per IronHorse's example earlier in the thread). I offered a quick attempt at an alternate idea at the end of the last post, but I'm sure there are others.
But dumbing down the game by showing the absolute health level is just incomprehensible: removing fun and easy-to-execute baiting/bluffing tactics does no good.
Also, I had server confirmed blood on so the toggle can't come soon enough. I hate this shit. I don't even care if others have it, this ruins the game for me in too much of a way. I don't even and never would use draw damage.
Sadly, I think the proponents of health bars sees this as a plus rather than as a minus.
Providing the absolute health level matters and will help you choose targets if you've damaged a number of them in a short amount of time, but it mostly matters if the information is displayed longer than is necessary (which results in the scenario I've described becoming a common one). We can define "as long as is necessary" by using damage numbers as a baseline. Most of us are used to them, they don't last for a long time, and they don't provide a persistent tactical advantage re: combat mechanics (i.e., shooting, tracking, etc.). So given the change, regardless of how the health information is displayed, it shouldn't be available much longer than damage numbers are.
To me, this is more about information display conditions than about the principle motivating the change. Because if you have working knowledge of a lifeform's max health and know how much you've altered that health (e.g., damage numbers), it becomes clear how much hp remains (within a range of possible health values). I agree that it's "dumbing things down" to provide that information in a more visually absolute way, but that's mostly the case insofar as quick math is no longer necessary.
If you meatshot a fade for ~220 and it retreats, you know its health value because you're familiar with the game (if not absolutely, then relatively). You can communicate this to your team and hopefully they'll listen, set up a pinch, etc. But it's not as if this information is magically transferred to the minds of your teammates. It's still up to you to communicate it.
The information really shouldn't be available continuously. If you shoot an alien or if an alien bites a marine, damage numbers appear and quickly vanish. That's about the length of time that any other method of displaying this information should be available. And that's why a floating health bar appears so out of place: it isn't tied to the HUD in an intuitive way, and in order to be readable, it needs to be kept on the screen for game-altering lengths of time. This will do one of three things: it'll get in the way (IronHorse's hallway example), it'll make tracking much easier (everyone in this thread), or it'll result in tactical changes (everyone targeting a clearly damaged lifeform).
As such, if you're going to use a non-numerical way of displaying health information, you need to use an approach that is easily and instantaneously visible, but which stops as soon as it's no longer being "earned" (by successfully and continuously attacking). The best way I can think to accomplish that is via a very temporary model overlay which provides health data at-a-glance. This still offers more than damage numbers (because it measures the absolute health value), but I could see it being implemented in a much less gamebreaking way than health bars currently are.
Healthbars aren't visible in the 'ambush' phase. They are visible in the 'jump around' phase.
And your suggestions about shortening the display time by replacing the displayed shape just not coherent. No relation between display time and shape. There is logic in displaying directly on the models, but you're using wrong arguments (and I won't help you, because I've got bigger problem with absolute HP levels).
Fade returns and you don't know the HP without healthbars. Maybe there is a proxy crag or gorge.
Absolute HP level display breaks fun stuff.
I don't think you understand my latter point, either. There are actually two broad goals being considered. I'm attempting to seek a compatible option between what the developers are trying to do, and what the people (myself included) in this thread want.
In that last paragraph, I'm first addressing the goal of the developers by restating it: to use a non-numerical method of displaying health information. If they're not limiting themselves to damage numbers, and if they want a visual option, that means that we need to think about visual solutions. Secondly, I'm taking into account the majority of complaints levied in this thread: the complaints about tracking, about immersion, and so on. The health bars are obtrusive, they have unintended consequences, they last too long.
So if we take the goal and the problems into consideration, we need a visual option that doesn't last much longer than damage numbers do, which doesn't unduly aid with combat tracking, which isn't visually obtrusive, and which is instantly readable. Hence: model overlays that disappear quickly.
Fade returns and you don't know the HP unless you hit it again. Because the health information display vanished as soon as you stopped damaging the fade initially (or as soon as it rounded the corner). Yes, there are going to be a subset of scenarios in which the average player has more information than they did before, but if the health display is designed with all of this in mind, the results will be less dramatic than they are right now.
Does it change the gameplay? Yes. But i dont think thats a bad thing.
As remi also mentioned, balance seems not affected by it (but a more detailed analysis would be necessary), so personally i'm quite happy with the change.
That's the thing. You are making the game shallower. Balance is not the only thing at stake here.
I expressed it earlier, but while you guys think this is more "fun", I just think its "cheap". And disabling it will just put me at a disadvantage, which is silly.
But loosing strategies and tactics (macro) is about loosing fun.
If you will be restating, you'll have not only the weak arguments, but also your inaccurate assumptions.
For now you're burying a binary problems (they are or they aren't; tactics existed or tactics lost) under the walls of text that are discussing some tweaks that gradually soften some parameters.
You're welcome to describe what I'm doing as merely "discussing some tweaks that gradually soften some parameters" but what I'm really doing is brainstorming alternate UI approaches which attempt to achieve the development team's stated goals without introducing so many problems. But, yes: I'm not willing to reduce this to a binary problem in my discussion of it, because that's wholly unproductive as anything other than a form of protest. And the reason is: grey areas, compromises, and alternate approaches exist.
Easy. Stated goals verbatim:
Better visual damage feedback about time to kill than damage numbers: translate damage numbers (not absolute value of the health left) to color directly on the model (as you proposed). More damage done = more redder. When damage numbers were starting from zero again - the new color feature should be resetting itself too.
Engagements are less binary: post-death fight recap - damage dealt/received, sources of damage, HP left on the enemies.
Helps focus on target: solid red color on the model helps.
This would remove the tracking assist, which quite frankly the more i play with the more i hate.
My survivability as skulk had plummeted so much I've actually started to not engage marines at all and just focus on biting res instead. When marines show up to save the extractor I just bail and run off to another because my chances of killing a marine with this aim assist have become so low.
And again people keep throwing out the "oh well you have to hit them first" argument.. Which is part of the reason why it's so bad!! It helps high skill players a lot more than low skill rookies...
A high skill vet is going to be spot on with their aim the instant the alien appears, giving them the aim assist and health info far quicker (and longer) than any casual player or rookie...
Unless skulks get buffed (slightly smaller model/hitbox maybe) or the tracking assist aspect of it is removed I don't see how things can be balanced back out...
not really made a difference when I'm skulk but my assists are turning into many more kills as marine.
You shouldn't know their HP beforehand, including armour/biomass/carapace level/damage from previous engagements nor the damage your teammates dealt nor the ability to calculate all the above instantly. The extra tracking boost is just salt on the wound at this point.
NS2 has been dead for quite some time. Think of all these changes as a giant experiment so if another NS does come out years down the road, the devs will have a better idea on what works and what doesn't.
I personally agree with most of the negative feedback here but don't really care at this point. Let the experimental sandbox happen.
I understand this sentiment, but this is not how it should work! Ns2 is a finished, delivered product. You can't just go "alright, we're gonna start experimenting on the few guys of you that are left now that the game is almost dead" 3 years in. Again, you can use a balance mod a la sewlek for this.
As for the bars, I'd like to throw colored damage numbers into the ring. The amount of hp would correlate with the numbers drawn on hits. It's a middle ground. You can shout "That fade is red", but you won't know "That marine's one parasite away from death". And rookies still get feedback on how much hp the enemy had left, roughly.
I just wanted to add my 2 cents and say that the health bars are a terrible addition to the game and the biggest benefit is given to both rookies and pro players and I feel like they give least marginal benefit to the veterans of average skill. This will just inevitably lead to greater inequality in skill base and further the problems NS2 already has.