Health bars on enemies

1568101115

Comments

  • YojimboYojimbo England Join Date: 2009-03-19 Member: 66806Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Shadow
    edited May 2016
    Am I the only who's accuracy actually became worse since the healthbars were added? They just visually obscure the lifeforms I am trying to track and hit now which makes it extremely frustrating :(

    Baiting and bluffing was part of the experience in NS2.

    Might aswell add crosshairs and killcams if we are going down this route, dumbed down mechanics in exchange for mass appeal.

    You'll get your rookies... But at what cost to the vets?
  • TinkiTinki Join Date: 2013-12-03 Member: 189715Members
    Yojimbo wrote: »
    You'll get your rookies... But at what cost to the vets?

    Hey ! go away you filthy competitive AND wooza player !
  • YojimboYojimbo England Join Date: 2009-03-19 Member: 66806Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Shadow
    Tinki wrote: »
    Yojimbo wrote: »
    You'll get your rookies... But at what cost to the vets?

    Hey ! go away you filthy competitive AND wooza player !

    Have been known to get around, tinkie winkie :wink:
  • Saffron_bakerSaffron_baker Sweden Join Date: 2015-06-09 Member: 205352Members
    I really really like the health bar feature
  • YojimboYojimbo England Join Date: 2009-03-19 Member: 66806Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Shadow
    I really really like the health bar feature

    Get back in the cupboard you!
  • remiremi remedy [blu.knight] Join Date: 2003-11-18 Member: 23112Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester
    edited May 2016
    Aeglos wrote: »
    Sigh. After some thought, it feels like the devs are assuming all engagements are at a known full HP and also 1v1.

    You shouldn't know their HP beforehand, including armour/biomass/carapace level/damage from previous engagements nor the damage your teammates dealt nor the ability to calculate all the above instantly. The extra tracking boost is just salt on the wound at this point.
    Just because someone does not agree with you does not mean they do not understand your points. I am not assuming what you suggest, and I do understand your opinion. Although I disagree, our difference in opinion is not due to me being ignorant of your position.

    I hope this clears that up.
  • The_Welsh_WizardThe_Welsh_Wizard Join Date: 2013-09-10 Member: 188101Members, Reinforced - Supporter
    edited May 2016
  • develdevel Join Date: 2014-09-13 Member: 198444Members
    It happens in all software. They see a shiny feature in some of the 'hits du moment' and rush to implement just that in their own project.
  • AeglosAeglos Join Date: 2010-04-06 Member: 71189Members
    remi wrote: »
    Aeglos wrote: »
    Sigh. After some thought, it feels like the devs are assuming all engagements are at a known full HP and also 1v1.

    You shouldn't know their HP beforehand, including armour/biomass/carapace level/damage from previous engagements nor the damage your teammates dealt nor the ability to calculate all the above instantly. The extra tracking boost is just salt on the wound at this point.
    Just because someone does not agree with you does not mean they do not understand your points. I am not assuming what you suggest, and I do understand your opinion. Although I disagree, our difference in opinion is not due to me being ignorant of your position.

    I hope this clears that up.

    Thank you. That's nice to know, but it would be nicer to address my concerns, specifically, what / why you disagree.

    I'm not pulling these assumptions out of thin air, I inferred them from your posts. Its inexplicable otherwise and rather frustrating. A rookie wouldn't know, but neither would a veteran beyond a rough ballpark figure of their expected max HP. Does the damage feedback outweigh this? I really don't get it.
  • remiremi remedy [blu.knight] Join Date: 2003-11-18 Member: 23112Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester
    Aeglos wrote: »
    remi wrote: »
    Aeglos wrote: »
    Sigh. After some thought, it feels like the devs are assuming all engagements are at a known full HP and also 1v1.

    You shouldn't know their HP beforehand, including armour/biomass/carapace level/damage from previous engagements nor the damage your teammates dealt nor the ability to calculate all the above instantly. The extra tracking boost is just salt on the wound at this point.
    Just because someone does not agree with you does not mean they do not understand your points. I am not assuming what you suggest, and I do understand your opinion. Although I disagree, our difference in opinion is not due to me being ignorant of your position.

    I hope this clears that up.

    Thank you. That's nice to know, but it would be nicer to address my concerns, specifically, what / why you disagree.

    I'm not pulling these assumptions out of thin air, I inferred them from your posts. Its inexplicable otherwise and rather frustrating. A rookie wouldn't know, but neither would a veteran beyond a rough ballpark figure of their expected max HP. Does the damage feedback outweigh this? I really don't get it.

    I agree that showing a player's health information in a more readily/instantly available way does change how the game is played on a fundamental level, but I don't think NS2 requires hiding that info for the game to be fun, and that the gains in accessibility (and some new opportunities for fun) outweigh the losses to the bluffing/baiting/low health engagement survivability. I also think there are game design opportunities to add back some of these mechanics without compromising the health bars' implementation.

    I also think that there's also a potential that there is a placebo effect going on, making the effects of this change overblown, so I'm trying to see if anyone's opinions change as the community settles into the new norm. I am also collecting data and comparing balance numbers, playtimes, etc to see if the balance changes we have already made have impacted the game in a "statistically relevant" way.

    Damage feedback is important to make the shooting experience feel more fun, but the accessibility / teaching aspect is paramount.

    I had my first fun game playing as a Lerk in ages (and I used to main Lerk in ns1 and in early ns2) because of these bars because I was able to understand when spikes were actually going to be useful and keep better track of which marine I was trying to focus down. The issues of gorge bile not doing health damage to players is no longer a hidden element, if you try to attack someone and the bar stops going down, it's very obvious that your attack is no longer doing damage. Pistol damage doing more vs health is more evident by just watching how the bars move, the same is true of other damage types.

    You may not always understand exactly what is going on, but you do get a better feel for why they died or stayed alive.

    There's a whole lot of good that comes with this change, even though it definitely does mix up the meta.
  • FrozenFrozen New York, NY Join Date: 2010-07-02 Member: 72228Members, Constellation
    @remi

    Just stop implementing cosmetic features without toggles in the options menu, please. I know it's being added in this weeks patch, but just stop doing these things without toggles.

    We don't have @Mendasp to fix these things anymore.
  • The_Welsh_WizardThe_Welsh_Wizard Join Date: 2013-09-10 Member: 188101Members, Reinforced - Supporter
    edited May 2016
  • develdevel Join Date: 2014-09-13 Member: 198444Members
    Yes, let's wait until it settles and we forget what good stuff we had. :(
  • 3X4L73X4L7 Join Date: 2014-06-13 Member: 196510Members
    edited May 2016
    Since you've implemented comander knowledge and auto comunication through HUD, Just take it a bit further and remove the need for a mini map. The info gained by pros via the mini map is really what rookies are missing...

    Just remove the mini map and replace such with target icons over the alien when they move and/or would have been visible on the minimap...

    Perception is key, closing the gap of missing infomation should be your goal if you're going to try and lean towards rookies.

    Removing the hidden benefits of minimap and giving it outright is key.


    You can replace health bar with target icons for marines while removing the minimap benefit for the pros and leveling it with with rookies.

    Aliens don't need any help on health for marines IMO, but aliens losing the ability to fake the marine out when it's health isn't really low is a trait that is missed by all.

  • AeglosAeglos Join Date: 2010-04-06 Member: 71189Members
    remi wrote: »
    Aeglos wrote: »
    remi wrote: »
    Aeglos wrote: »
    Sigh. After some thought, it feels like the devs are assuming all engagements are at a known full HP and also 1v1.

    You shouldn't know their HP beforehand, including armour/biomass/carapace level/damage from previous engagements nor the damage your teammates dealt nor the ability to calculate all the above instantly. The extra tracking boost is just salt on the wound at this point.
    Just because someone does not agree with you does not mean they do not understand your points. I am not assuming what you suggest, and I do understand your opinion. Although I disagree, our difference in opinion is not due to me being ignorant of your position.

    I hope this clears that up.

    Thank you. That's nice to know, but it would be nicer to address my concerns, specifically, what / why you disagree.

    I'm not pulling these assumptions out of thin air, I inferred them from your posts. Its inexplicable otherwise and rather frustrating. A rookie wouldn't know, but neither would a veteran beyond a rough ballpark figure of their expected max HP. Does the damage feedback outweigh this? I really don't get it.

    I agree that showing a player's health information in a more readily/instantly available way does change how the game is played on a fundamental level, but I don't think NS2 requires hiding that info for the game to be fun, and that the gains in accessibility (and some new opportunities for fun) outweigh the losses to the bluffing/baiting/low health engagement survivability. I also think there are game design opportunities to add back some of these mechanics without compromising the health bars' implementation.

    I also think that there's also a potential that there is a placebo effect going on, making the effects of this change overblown, so I'm trying to see if anyone's opinions change as the community settles into the new norm. I am also collecting data and comparing balance numbers, playtimes, etc to see if the balance changes we have already made have impacted the game in a "statistically relevant" way.

    Damage feedback is important to make the shooting experience feel more fun, but the accessibility / teaching aspect is paramount.

    I had my first fun game playing as a Lerk in ages (and I used to main Lerk in ns1 and in early ns2) because of these bars because I was able to understand when spikes were actually going to be useful and keep better track of which marine I was trying to focus down. The issues of gorge bile not doing health damage to players is no longer a hidden element, if you try to attack someone and the bar stops going down, it's very obvious that your attack is no longer doing damage. Pistol damage doing more vs health is more evident by just watching how the bars move, the same is true of other damage types.

    You may not always understand exactly what is going on, but you do get a better feel for why they died or stayed alive.

    There's a whole lot of good that comes with this change, even though it definitely does mix up the meta.

    I really appreciate that lengthy explanation. Unfortunately, I can't agree with it. I think damage numbers do a good job of conveying that information already and what works in another game may not work in this as there are different circumstances. There's no fun for me in this change. Its not affecting other parts of the game, but I just sigh whenever I take advantage of this feature. And unlike Frozen up there, I'm not quite willing to put myself at a disadvantage.
  • Me9aMe9a Join Date: 2008-03-27 Member: 63981Members
    edited May 2016
    @Remi is the easier Tracking intentional on the new Healthbars ?

    If not try to make it like that:
    xpNHmnV.jpg

    but only make this visible on the aliens you have your crosshair on.




    If you dont like it like that well:
    HeatSurge wrote: »

    cad-21.png

    1313675-finalfight.jpg

    Punisher_arcade_gameplay.png

    warriors_of_fate_world_921002.png

    Just put the enemy healthbar in the bottom of the Screen over your own healthbar from the Alien your just aiming at.

  • remiremi remedy [blu.knight] Join Date: 2003-11-18 Member: 23112Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester
    Me9a wrote: »
    @Remi is the easier Tracking intentional on the new Healthbars ?
    In short, yes. I think I mentioned this already but I was looking into adding outlines to assist with tracking while also adding health bars to help give better feedback. When I tested the outlines, I didn't really feel like it fit, and then when I prototyped the health bars, I realized it achieved the same result without the outline... so it was kind of a 2 in 1 solution.
  • YaluzanYaluzan Join Date: 2013-07-30 Member: 186474Members, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, NS2 Map Tester
    remi wrote: »
    Me9a wrote: »
    @Remi is the easier Tracking intentional on the new Healthbars ?
    In short, yes. I think I mentioned this already but I was looking into adding outlines to assist with tracking while also adding health bars to help give better feedback. When I tested the outlines, I didn't really feel like it fit, and then when I prototyped the health bars, I realized it achieved the same result without the outline... so it was kind of a 2 in 1 solution.

    Please don't make it even easier to track skulks and the like. else its RIP lerk ( for example)
  • develdevel Join Date: 2014-09-13 Member: 198444Members
    Yaluzan wrote: »
    Please don't make it even easier to track skulks and the like. else its RIP lerk ( for example)

    The arms race of obstructive immersion-breaking symbols has begun. We'll have the arrows for skulks to find the jumping marine.

    You can always add more s**t to fix previous s**t.
  • develdevel Join Date: 2014-09-13 Member: 198444Members
    edited May 2016
    Btw, @remi, stop playing overwatch, you'll copy it eventually into NS2.
  • RysskRyssk Join Date: 2012-12-18 Member: 175441Members
    edited May 2016
    remi wrote: »


    Thank you. That's nice to know, but it would be nicer to address my concerns, specifically, what / why you disagree.

    I'm not pulling these assumptions out of thin air, I inferred them from your posts. Its inexplicable otherwise and rather frustrating. A rookie wouldn't know, but neither would a veteran beyond a rough ballpark figure of their expected max HP. Does the damage feedback outweigh this? I really don't get it.

    I agree that showing a player's health information in a more readily/instantly available way does change how the game is played on a fundamental level, but I don't think NS2 requires hiding that info for the game to be fun, and that the gains in accessibility (and some new opportunities for fun) outweigh the losses to the bluffing/baiting/low health engagement survivability. I also think there are game design opportunities to add back some of these mechanics without compromising the health bars' implementation.

    I also think that there's also a potential that there is a placebo effect going on, making the effects of this change overblown, so I'm trying to see if anyone's opinions change as the community settles into the new norm. I am also collecting data and comparing balance numbers, playtimes, etc to see if the balance changes we have already made have impacted the game in a "statistically relevant" way.

    Damage feedback is important to make the shooting experience feel more fun, but the accessibility / teaching aspect is paramount.


    This is what worries me, you want the experience to be "FUN"? So basicly you're trying to get this game more and more like Team Fortress 2? But from a competitive aspect i see this a stupid idea. There is a reason why motion tracking was requested to be removed. But this is just a way of implementing it again without giving it any kind of thought... Sure it's a "cool feature" but absolutely making the gameplay more rookie friendly and dumb tbh.

    So what's next? Lets make Armor+Regen into the same upgrade like we have with Silence & Phantom? Or Sentrys shooting heavy damage? Nope.

    Bad choice, and should be removed.
  • RevanCoranaRevanCorana Join Date: 2015-08-14 Member: 207125Members
    edited May 2016
    @remi The healthbars are not necessarily a bad idea at all, imo it's more to do with the lack of polish that they suffer from.

    They really need a smooth shading so as to not appear/disapear instantly on the screen out of nowhere.
    Maybe use the same exponential shading technique as the new crosshair hit-indicator.

    Because in addition to that, there is the problem that if you hit something but you don't aim at it perfectly, the healthbar disapears, very confusing.
    Imo add a guaranteed duration of the healthbar after hitting some target, like just 1 second would fix this.

    Oh and also the healthbar themselves could be a bit clearer I think something more like this with clear 25/50/75 segmentation,

    https://dropbox.com/s/s5dr1pqy0n78t7k/unitstatus_neutral.dds?dl=0
    46d0a210tbxu.jpg
  • Kouji_SanKouji_San Sr. Hινε Uρкεερεг - EUPT Deputy The Netherlands Join Date: 2003-05-13 Member: 16271Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
    Well logic doesn't seem to work, maybe we need to do interpretive dance...
  • TinkiTinki Join Date: 2013-12-03 Member: 189715Members
    When I try to rationalize everything the best option i'm left with is that this is all a test/beta to see what should be implemented in a hypothetic NS3 :/
  • FrozenFrozen New York, NY Join Date: 2010-07-02 Member: 72228Members, Constellation
    I can't track as well with the health bars, I can't keep my eye on the skulk or anything else anymore with this fucking red bar appearing randomly.

    I don't know what the fuck everyones talking about
  • TinkiTinki Join Date: 2013-12-03 Member: 189715Members
    edited May 2016
    You can disable it by changing predicted blood in ns2+ option
    Edit : You can't anymore
  • VetinariVetinari Join Date: 2013-07-23 Member: 186325Members, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Silver
    Ryssk wrote: »
    This is what worries me, you want the experience to be "FUN"? So basicly you're trying to get this game more and more like Team Fortress 2?

    This seems like a flawless chain of logic with zero omitted steps in between.
    Kouji_San wrote: »
    Well logic doesn't seem to work, maybe we need to do interpretive dance...

    Yeah, but on the other hand, when has violence interpretive dance ever solved anything?
    Luchs wrote: »
    remi wrote: »
    There's a whole lot of good that comes with this change, even though it definitely does mix up the meta.

    Would it be possible to elaborate based on which tangible metric or measure you reflect on changes made (not just this one, but in general), or in a more blunt way: What would, hypothetically, need to happen to convince you that the addition - even though done with good intention - this doesn't work as intended (by you) and should get reverted?

    The majority of voices it in this thread aren't in favor of the health bar, yet you still seem convinced that it's a good thing. Maybe it's because you see the bigger picture in which it makes perfect sense to make tracking easier for Marines - If so, why not share it? I think the past posts show very clearly that the general direction isn't understood, and the changes are mostly percieved as an attempt to mimick behaviors and designs of currently more popular games that, therefore, must be a good reference.
    Tinki wrote: »
    When I try to rationalize everything the best option i'm left with is that this is all a test/beta to see what should be implemented in a hypothetic NS3 :/

    I am still in favor of a return of the balance mod. The devs get to experiment with features, people get to give feedback, and parallely we can still play the default version of ns2 where we a guaranteed certain standards.
  • YojimboYojimbo England Join Date: 2009-03-19 Member: 66806Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Shadow
    Tinki wrote: »
    You can disable it by changing predicted blood in ns2+ option

    I thought mendasp fixed this? I enabled server confirmed blood hits and the health bar still appeared.
  • Kouji_SanKouji_San Sr. Hινε Uρкεερεг - EUPT Deputy The Netherlands Join Date: 2003-05-13 Member: 16271Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
    edited May 2016
    Kouji_San wrote: »
    Well logic doesn't seem to work, maybe we need to do interpretive dance...

    Yeah, but on the other hand, when has violence interpretive dance ever solved anything?

    Marie Chouinard might want a word with you :trollface:
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