I voted for both team's individual scores to be hidden. The commander being able to see his own teams score sounds like a great idea, but if he is a good commander he should know from the way people respond to his requests very early on who is a good marine(note: I didn't say a good shot) and who is not. I love playing Kharaa, and I love seeing how many marines I have eaten, but I think I would be a much more effective skulk if I didn't know my score. Almost all first person shooters give the players an individual score, but I think Natural Selection is aiming for a more realistic team-oriented atmosphere. Without individual scores we would see the bravery levels of skulks increase exponentially, and to me that would be the greatest thing that could be gained from this.
I voted for no team scores. However, I do think that the either both or no teams should move around on the scoreboard according to their kill/death ratio.
moultanoCreator of ns_shiva.Join Date: 2002-12-14Member: 10806Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Gold, NS2 Community Developer, Pistachionauts
<!--QuoteBegin--MedHead+Jan 28 2003, 01:07 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (MedHead @ Jan 28 2003, 01:07 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I voted for no team scores. However, I do think that the either both or no teams should move around on the scoreboard according to their kill/death ratio. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> that would be even worse. People would be even more kill hungry becuase they would never know exactly how well they were doing. There's some psychological principle that is involved here that I cant quite remember. I was more ratio conscious in cs back when you couldnt see scores than I was with them in.
I stopped reading a few pages back cause its the same old thing... Come on, if you want to play for frags go play one of the other 100 games that are like that. NS is a team game so why would you care what your frag count is? I can see it working in a scrim or clan match, as you are going to work as a team anyways, but in a pub, why bother working as a team if you are good enough to run off and get some kills even if what you should be doing is building that IP, or phase gate...
Here are my points on this: 1) A good marine doesn't have the higest frag count. He is the one that follows orders. Your best marines may be building your hive, while some rambos run off and kill a few aliens ending up with a high frag count. Any decent commander will figure out who to give weapons to...
2) BS scores won't change team work. If anyone is at all in doubt of that, play CS on a server with stats and without stats. Without stats, people will take chances, with stats, they are more concerned with that high K:D ratio which means staying alive. I don't belive for a second that NS won't turn into the same thing if the marines had scores. My understanding of the game with the ability to respawn is that the end goal is more important then staying alive. Great if you can do both but if you hurt that fade and cause him to back off giving your teammates time to finish the TF they are building but die in the process, that will help more then running away so that you don't die, while your teammates die because they were trying to build something...
3) If the commander knew scores, people would just yell at him to tell them their scores. As far as using status, I think that should be fixed as well.
4) End game frag counts are the same thing. You know your being scored so you play as if you are. Its just a surprise at the end. If your objective is good frag counts, it doesn't matter if you can see the score now or later, it will change your game style. (campers are a good example. How often do you see campers in NS compared to something like CS? Campers are concerned with getting killed so they don't want to run around a corner and get shot If they camp they will see them coming and have an advantage.)
The only people that I can even see wanting scores are the noob commanders and the ones that like to rambo...
<span style='font-size:14pt;line-height:100%'> <span style='color:blue'>Casual:</span> No individual data shown <span style='color:red'>Tourny:</span> All invididual data shown Team data shown at all times. </span>
moultanoCreator of ns_shiva.Join Date: 2002-12-14Member: 10806Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Gold, NS2 Community Developer, Pistachionauts
<!--QuoteBegin--Terr+Jan 28 2003, 02:09 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Terr @ Jan 28 2003, 02:09 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> There is an option missing!
<span style='font-size:14pt;line-height:100%'> <span style='color:blue'>Casual:</span> No individual data shown <span style='color:red'>Tourny:</span> All invididual data shown Team data shown at all times. </span> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I think everyone who voted for no team scores agrees with that
<!--QuoteBegin--Terr+Jan 28 2003, 03:09 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Terr @ Jan 28 2003, 03:09 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> There is an option missing!
<span style='font-size:14pt;line-height:100%'> <span style='color:blue'>Casual:</span> No individual data shown <span style='color:red'>Tourny:</span> All invididual data shown Team data shown at all times. </span> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I would be fine with that.
Even a seperate cvar would be nice, something like "mp_scores"
I would suggest making it a map toggle.. so if they want it put it on 1 and if not put it on 0.. because sometimes i want to look at my clan recruits score.. just to see if he's not totally blowing it.
Necro<insert non-birthday-related title here>Join Date: 2002-08-09Member: 1118Members
<!--QuoteBegin--Grimm Spector+Jan 28 2003, 06:21 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Grimm Spector @ Jan 28 2003, 06:21 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I Urge you guys to not remove the individual scores, as it will inhibit clan recruiting, because much of that is based on watching peoples round scores
<span style='color:red'>No yelling.</span> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> wrong. it'll make it better. because then they recruit on skill ingame not score, i could own the team, save my team from loosing by sacrificing myself to take down their turrets but wouldnt get in cause i had a 2/20 score even though i saved the team from losing
<!--QuoteBegin--Brutus+Jan 27 2003, 03:58 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Brutus @ Jan 27 2003, 03:58 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I say all scores. Taking away the scoreboard will not make people play as a team. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It won't make anyone play as a team, but in a teamgame like NS, the idea that frag-based scores say anything is just plain wrong. Until somebody comes up with a way of properly representing the individual achievement of each player, I'd say it's best to not show anything at all, because all it can do is mislead people.
Com being able to see marine kills? No way, never ever. Soon anyone with bad scores wouldn't ever get a weapon and only the 1337 players would have all the fancy stuff. This would probably drive new players away. Marines are supposed to be faceless grunts. If com wants good results he doesn't give the job for two or three über players but for the whole team and will equip them randomly.
NS Player: Could I please have a weapon? We have 264res.
Commander: Lets see...NO WAY! Your scores suck, I give you nothing, go away. *drops tons of equipment for his few trusted ones as NS Player curses and never plays NS again*
I just thought it would be better if the score board caused the damage in RPs caused to the other team, this way a Skulk who is eating Marines wouldn't necessarily get a higher score than a Skulk who is eating RT's and TF's. . .
I personally enjoy the way it is. Marines would have too many rambos early game if the scores were allowed, but for the aliens its a sacrifice to go gorge (if you like high kill counts, therefore lowering the number of potential gorges).
I also enjoy being at the top of the alien board despite the fact I had been gorging the whole round (and maybe got 1-2 kills from OTs, the rest from being ueber-evil to rambos). *shrug* they're fine as they are, but if a change was to be made, kill the scoreboard entirely.
Building? Guarding? Are not these things important?
Maybe all marines/kharaa should wait outside the enemy base, grabbing as many killls as possible. And for the love of god don't even think of engaging that Fade/Onos/HA/Jp! Also, stay away from teammates since they're all <b>fragstealers</b>.
I really like the idea that score shows how much RP you have destroyed for your enemies(even if the marines pick up the dropped HMG, just to keep it simple).
Out of interest, how many of the people who voted for "show no scores" instead of "show no scores except in tournement mode" actually play in tournement mode, ever?
<!--QuoteBegin--Necro-+Jan 28 2003, 04:26 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Necro- @ Jan 28 2003, 04:26 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--Grimm Spector+Jan 28 2003, 06:21 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Grimm Spector @ Jan 28 2003, 06:21 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I Urge you guys to not remove the individual scores, as it will inhibit clan recruiting, because much of that is based on watching peoples round scores
<span style='color:red'>No yelling.</span> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> wrong. it'll make it better. because then they recruit on skill ingame not score, i could own the team, save my team from loosing by sacrificing myself to take down their turrets but wouldnt get in cause i had a 2/20 score even though i saved the team from losing <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> The problem is necro when you and the WHOLE marine team has that same attitude, if everyone winds up going 2/20 because no one wants to frag ****, you are not going to win, by then the aliens would have yer IPs and Com chair probably already down, but hey atleast you played as a team member right?
Like i said showing individual marine scores is a way to take pride in one's self. I see in all other team based games you can see each other's score, why not NS? (The only reason i mention that is because people are using the TEAM game arguement, where as a team is made up of individuals).
He's right you know. And requires the least messing about. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--Necro-+Jan 28 2003, 11:46 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Necro- @ Jan 28 2003, 11:46 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> the point is, i sacrificed my score for the team, i lost my score but i stopped them from killing us.
if everyone though that way it'd be better. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> if everyone thought that way the marine side would never win. I'm sorry but that is just how it is, if everyone on the team cant pull their weight when they are attacking, then the marine team will just not win. People need basic FPS skills to play this game, not just press the "e" key and move around to waypoints. People who have the skills should be recognized.
Also by going 2/20 you are not helping your team, you are burdening it, even if you did save the team from dying, you sure as hell did not help it expand, by dying 20 times.
<!--QuoteBegin--FireWater+Jan 28 2003, 11:59 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (FireWater @ Jan 28 2003, 11:59 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--Necro-+Jan 28 2003, 11:46 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Necro- @ Jan 28 2003, 11:46 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> the point is, i sacrificed my score for the team, i lost my score but i stopped them from killing us.
if everyone though that way it'd be better. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> if everyone thought that way the marine side would never win. I'm sorry but that is just how it is, if everyone on the team cant pull their weight when they are attacking, then the marine team will just not win. People need basic FPS skills to play this game, not just press the "e" key and move around to waypoints. People who have the skills should be recognized.
Also by going 2/20 you are not helping your team, you are burdening it, even if you did save the team from dying, you sure as hell did not help it expand, by dying 20 times.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> whatever. Counter-Stike is a team based game as well, but its very rare to find people play as a team. I watch people camp instead of trying to defuse or rescue hostages because they want to wait until there are less bad guys that might shoot them (notice I say might). Or if they get their health down to like 30, they hide and camp out the map, picking off people, but not actually helping the team get any key points.
NS is differant. If I am building something, and someone is guarding me, we both met our team objectives, who cares if the guy guarding me killed 3 fades or 10 aliens, he did his part, and I did mine. Where is my score for that. I am pulling my weight just as much as the guy with the frags... If it turns into a frag based game, I want to be the guy out there defending others while they build so the commander will 'think' I am a good player and give me weapons.
Of course you have to pull your weight, and getting frags are part of that, but this game is not just about hom many frags you have, its about the big picture, and the final outcome. You can go shoot 50 aliens, but you won't win the game that way... You have to get resources, take key points, etc. Why do you think the guy attacking the aliens is more important then the guy defending a key point with no aliens attacking it, or the guy building the phase gate?
And maybe he died 20 times cause some idiot was off camping in a vent trying to get his frag count up while he was trying to secure hte hive...
If you want a frag count game, play one of the hundreds of other games that are out there that count frags. Don't ruin this one and make it a camping awp fest... There isn't any fun in that.
Building? Guarding? Are not these things important? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes, but wouldn't guarding result in kills as long as you're guarding something important? Also if you had the scoreboard show the amount of RP damage done to the enemy, it could also show the amount of RP's you've helped gain for your team. I.E. building a 25 RP cost Phase Gate will get you 25 points, killing a Skulk with Carapace will get you 2 points, killing a Fade with Carapace and Adrenaline will get you 58 points, repairing a Turret with half hitpoints left will get you 9 points. This way killing still shows as points, but the biggest points would be to build expensive and necessary structures AND kill big Aliens like Fades and Lerks. I personally think this would be the best scoreboard system, but would probably be harder to include than any other <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->
I just realized this would also be a good way to judge a Commander's skill as the RP's he spends on buildings could be tallied into his score.
Comments
Team scores only.
that would be even worse. People would be even more kill hungry becuase they would never know exactly how well they were doing. There's some psychological principle that is involved here that I cant quite remember. I was more ratio conscious in cs back when you couldnt see scores than I was with them in.
Here are my points on this:
1) A good marine doesn't have the higest frag count. He is the one that follows orders. Your best marines may be building your hive, while some rambos run off and kill a few aliens ending up with a high frag count. Any decent commander will figure out who to give weapons to...
2) BS scores won't change team work. If anyone is at all in doubt of that, play CS on a server with stats and without stats. Without stats, people will take chances, with stats, they are more concerned with that high K:D ratio which means staying alive. I don't belive for a second that NS won't turn into the same thing if the marines had scores. My understanding of the game with the ability to respawn is that the end goal is more important then staying alive. Great if you can do both but if you hurt that fade and cause him to back off giving your teammates time to finish the TF they are building but die in the process, that will help more then running away so that you don't die, while your teammates die because they were trying to build something...
3) If the commander knew scores, people would just yell at him to tell them their scores. As far as using status, I think that should be fixed as well.
4) End game frag counts are the same thing. You know your being scored so you play as if you are. Its just a surprise at the end. If your objective is good frag counts, it doesn't matter if you can see the score now or later, it will change your game style. (campers are a good example. How often do you see campers in NS compared to something like CS? Campers are concerned with getting killed so they don't want to run around a corner and get shot If they camp they will see them coming and have an advantage.)
The only people that I can even see wanting scores are the noob commanders and the ones that like to rambo...
<span style='font-size:14pt;line-height:100%'>
<span style='color:blue'>Casual:</span> No individual data shown
<span style='color:red'>Tourny:</span> All invididual data shown
Team data shown at all times.
</span>
<span style='font-size:14pt;line-height:100%'>
<span style='color:blue'>Casual:</span> No individual data shown
<span style='color:red'>Tourny:</span> All invididual data shown
Team data shown at all times.
</span> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think everyone who voted for no team scores agrees with that
<span style='font-size:14pt;line-height:100%'>
<span style='color:blue'>Casual:</span> No individual data shown
<span style='color:red'>Tourny:</span> All invididual data shown
Team data shown at all times.
</span> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I would be fine with that.
Even a seperate cvar would be nice, something like "mp_scores"
/me huggles
-ChanServ- [Necro] Please Don't Squeeze The Flayra. Think of the Flayra.
<span style='color:red'>No yelling.</span> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
wrong. it'll make it better. because then they recruit on skill ingame not score, i could own the team, save my team from loosing by sacrificing myself to take down their turrets but wouldnt get in cause i had a 2/20 score even though i saved the team from losing
It won't make anyone play as a team, but in a teamgame like NS, the idea that frag-based scores say anything is just plain wrong.
Until somebody comes up with a way of properly representing the individual achievement of each player, I'd say it's best to not show anything at all, because all it can do is mislead people.
NS Player: Could I please have a weapon? We have 264res.
Commander: Lets see...NO WAY! Your scores suck, I give you nothing, go away. *drops tons of equipment for his few trusted ones as NS Player curses and never plays NS again*
I also enjoy being at the top of the alien board despite the fact I had been gorging the whole round (and maybe got 1-2 kills from OTs, the rest from being ueber-evil to rambos). *shrug* they're fine as they are, but if a change was to be made, kill the scoreboard entirely.
Building? Guarding?
Are not these things important?
Maybe all marines/kharaa should wait outside the enemy base, grabbing as many killls as possible.
And for the love of god don't even think of engaging that Fade/Onos/HA/Jp!
Also, stay away from teammates since they're all <b>fragstealers</b>.
<span style='color:red'>No yelling.</span> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
wrong. it'll make it better. because then they recruit on skill ingame not score, i could own the team, save my team from loosing by sacrificing myself to take down their turrets but wouldnt get in cause i had a 2/20 score even though i saved the team from losing <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
The problem is necro when you and the WHOLE marine team has that same attitude, if everyone winds up going 2/20 because no one wants to frag ****, you are not going to win, by then the aliens would have yer IPs and Com chair probably already down, but hey atleast you played as a team member right?
Like i said showing individual marine scores is a way to take pride in one's self. I see in all other team based games you can see each other's score, why not NS? (The only reason i mention that is because people are using the TEAM game arguement, where as a team is made up of individuals).
if everyone though that way it'd be better.
He's right you know. And requires the least messing about. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
if everyone though that way it'd be better. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
if everyone thought that way the marine side would never win. I'm sorry but that is just how it is, if everyone on the team cant pull their weight when they are attacking, then the marine team will just not win. People need basic FPS skills to play this game, not just press the "e" key and move around to waypoints. People who have the skills should be recognized.
Also by going 2/20 you are not helping your team, you are burdening it, even if you did save the team from dying, you sure as hell did not help it expand, by dying 20 times.
if everyone though that way it'd be better. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
if everyone thought that way the marine side would never win. I'm sorry but that is just how it is, if everyone on the team cant pull their weight when they are attacking, then the marine team will just not win. People need basic FPS skills to play this game, not just press the "e" key and move around to waypoints. People who have the skills should be recognized.
Also by going 2/20 you are not helping your team, you are burdening it, even if you did save the team from dying, you sure as hell did not help it expand, by dying 20 times.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
whatever. Counter-Stike is a team based game as well, but its very rare to find people play as a team. I watch people camp instead of trying to defuse or rescue hostages because they want to wait until there are less bad guys that might shoot them (notice I say might). Or if they get their health down to like 30, they hide and camp out the map, picking off people, but not actually helping the team get any key points.
NS is differant. If I am building something, and someone is guarding me, we both met our team objectives, who cares if the guy guarding me killed 3 fades or 10 aliens, he did his part, and I did mine. Where is my score for that. I am pulling my weight just as much as the guy with the frags... If it turns into a frag based game, I want to be the guy out there defending others while they build so the commander will 'think' I am a good player and give me weapons.
Of course you have to pull your weight, and getting frags are part of that, but this game is not just about hom many frags you have, its about the big picture, and the final outcome. You can go shoot 50 aliens, but you won't win the game that way... You have to get resources, take key points, etc. Why do you think the guy attacking the aliens is more important then the guy defending a key point with no aliens attacking it, or the guy building the phase gate?
And maybe he died 20 times cause some idiot was off camping in a vent trying to get his frag count up while he was trying to secure hte hive...
If you want a frag count game, play one of the hundreds of other games that are out there that count frags. Don't ruin this one and make it a camping awp fest... There isn't any fun in that.
Building? Guarding?
Are not these things important?
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes, but wouldn't guarding result in kills as long as you're guarding something important? Also if you had the scoreboard show the amount of RP damage done to the enemy, it could also show the amount of RP's you've helped gain for your team. I.E. building a 25 RP cost Phase Gate will get you 25 points, killing a Skulk with Carapace will get you 2 points, killing a Fade with Carapace and Adrenaline will get you 58 points, repairing a Turret with half hitpoints left will get you 9 points. This way killing still shows as points, but the biggest points would be to build expensive and necessary structures AND kill big Aliens like Fades and Lerks. I personally think this would be the best scoreboard system, but would probably be harder to include than any other <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->
I just realized this would also be a good way to judge a Commander's skill as the RP's he spends on buildings could be tallied into his score.