Thank God For Savant And His Reasoning Skills.
Forlorn
Join Date: 2002-11-01 Member: 2634Banned
Join Date: 2002-11-01 Member: 2634Banned
<div class="IPBDescription">Top notch I'd say!</div> Savant on skulk health:
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I see it differently, the marines ALWAYS had a chance, they just had to USE IT. The ONLY, and I mean ONLY reason marines EVER lost games up to this point (with higher skulk health) was lack of marine teamwork. Period. Any time marines worked as a group, they won the vast majority of games.
However, I disagree with your point on aliens. The big point about this game is that Flayra wanted it to be the MARINES that had to be organized as a team of people working together, and the aliens were a loose groups of like minded individuals working towards a common goal. Aliens shouldn't HAVE to work as a single unit to win the game, the marines should. THAT is what makes NS unique.
Instead people want to flip it around. They say it should be marines that should be able to run around solo and own the skulks unless the SKULKS are in groups. I think that is backwards thinking and counter-intuitive to the way the game was designed.
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This is from <a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?act=ST&f=30&t=38797' target='_blank'>here</a>.
Nearly all of his posts I pretty much agree with. Do you?
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I see it differently, the marines ALWAYS had a chance, they just had to USE IT. The ONLY, and I mean ONLY reason marines EVER lost games up to this point (with higher skulk health) was lack of marine teamwork. Period. Any time marines worked as a group, they won the vast majority of games.
However, I disagree with your point on aliens. The big point about this game is that Flayra wanted it to be the MARINES that had to be organized as a team of people working together, and the aliens were a loose groups of like minded individuals working towards a common goal. Aliens shouldn't HAVE to work as a single unit to win the game, the marines should. THAT is what makes NS unique.
Instead people want to flip it around. They say it should be marines that should be able to run around solo and own the skulks unless the SKULKS are in groups. I think that is backwards thinking and counter-intuitive to the way the game was designed.
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This is from <a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?act=ST&f=30&t=38797' target='_blank'>here</a>.
Nearly all of his posts I pretty much agree with. Do you?
This discussion has been closed.
Comments
Especially because if its harder for marines to go solo, we won't see people judge people by stats, perhaps we'll see them judge by their teamwork and coordination abilities.
I agree with Savant on most principles. However, he's almost zealous in his arguments. That may be reasonable, considering that he wants NS to be a top notch game, but I find many of his points very exaggerated...
Oh BTW, grats on your new job, Forlorn <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
When both teams are same strong organisated aliens win on less organisated teams and marines win on more organisated teams.
Atacking, sneaking out of the group is good for both teams depending on how you do it.
Aliens have the advantage that they mustnt have teamwork but it helps.
Marines muist have teamwork.
So its only fair do give marines explorer support.
I believe the topic was to stroke Savant's ego.
Yeah he's a great guy, we should bake cookies for him. But really, you can use PMs to tell him how great he his. I'm sure he's doing a good job trying to balance 2.0, but so are most of the other testers.
Is he the only one worthy of a personalized post glorifying his "superiority" and proclaiming that he is God's gift to man?
Personally I feel that both teams should rely on teamwork equally. It's only fair that the more organized team wins.
As to HMG and other stuff in 2.0, we haven't played 2.0 yet so we can't really comment can we?
Oh and since (at least in 1.04) marines have base guards, why shouldn't the aliens have base guards as well? I mean in 20 seconds, a few skulks can shut down a marine base if left unchecked (all ips will be down). Aliens have more mobility, so they SHOULD be able to locate marines before the marine get near the hive (and hence give the rest of the aliens enough time to get back and defend.)
Hmm...maybe we should raise the number of OCs to be able to be placed in one area, if the HMG tears thru them quickly? Maybe 14 in an area instead of 8?
<i>BTW: Let's not start any flames please. I don't consider myself 'superior' to anyone. I'm here to test, and provide my input, so that's what I do. <shrugs></i>
Anyway, I guess I'm in a unique situation compared to the vets. While I totally respect the VETs' needs, I also know that their needs are different from the needs of the general NS playing public.
In their case they want the mod to be balanced best for their matches and I respect that. It's not fun playing a match when you feel that being marines or aliens is an inherant disadvantage.
However, I also have to look at the game from the perspective of the AVERAGE player, that is, you folks here. Sure a skulk may be able to own a marine, but they don't take into account that they are all top notch players and SHOULD be owning it up anyway.
With your average player, it doesn't happen that way. So if you balance the game for top notch players, then average players are screwed. The reverse is also true though, and so the idea is to find a happy medium. It needs to be balanced so that matches can be played and won by either team, but also balanced so that public players don't get moved down continuously.
While a reduction in skulk health by 10 points may not seem significant, it DOES make a big different in game. That's 2 less bullets to kill, and it means that you MAY not get that second bite in. By the way, no need for base D with the elec TF and turrets. They are instant death to skulks.
However, what I also found was that marines weren't using the arms lab very often, if at all. If they had, they could have easily balanced things in their favour. Armor 1 makes it take 3 bites to kill, and Damage 2 will shave 2 bullets of the number it takes to kill. Those upgrades can be completed 5 minutes into the game *IF* you research them.
I think you will find shooting is MUCH easier with the smaller moved weapon model and reduced muzzle flash. When we first tested it the aliens were getting OWNED serverly, and we all kept asked if damage had been increased and it hadn't! This tells you how much of an exploit the drawviewmodel exploit was. (it is now disabled)
So seeing how aliens were getting owned because of the easier aim for LMGs, Flayra increased skulk health/armor. We've had a few incarnations of various values, but I felt 85 was the best. We had it higher but it was too strong.
At 85/25 the EARLY game marines would get owned if they scouted alone. As they should. Then as the game progressed they would get better and better at killing skulks by moving in groups and using the arms lab.
However, of late no one was using the arms lab. It was 'upgrade armory' first and then HMG rush. While that was happening and the arms lab (and respective upgrades) were neglected, marines would continue to get killed by skulks. My personal opinion is that SHOULD be happening if you skip arms lab upgrades and just rush HMGs.
The aliens don't have any damage upgrades, so they can't do greater damage in the later game. As such, they SHOULD be able to take on base marines easily initially since that encourages the marines to use their tech to defeat them.
Look at it this way. If a L0 base marine with stock weapons can kill base skulks with ease in the beginning of the game, what will it be like when they get UPGRADES and they go up against skulks? If we go this road, what I fear is that aliens will again be forced to get carapace first and so the chamber order will be back to the old DMS.
I was hoping to get AWAY from that as it does make the game more fun if you can use any chamber first.
We'll see how it goes anyway.
Regards,
Savant
Gorge ownage is not what it once was now that bile bomb has an arc. They need to be MUCH closer, and will suffer damage. What they they tend to do more often is set up OCs to draw turret fire and then bile bomb.
As for alien base D, I disagree. You can't just park all your fades in base or you lose the game. Yes aliens need ALL the people they can get when marines raid a hive, but if you continually play a defensive game as aliens, then who is out there attacking the marine base? Who is out there protecting res nodes? Who is out there building chambers? Who is out there attacking marine nodes? etc...
Hive D (by making aliens sit around the hive) is not only boring, but it's a luxury the aliens just can't afford.
Sinspawn, base health armor values (as of the present build) are as follows:
Skulk: 75/25
Lerk: 100/25
Gorge: 150/75
Fade: 250/100
Onos: 500/150
Marine: 100/50
HA: 100/200
Regards,
Savant
While a reduction in skulk health by 10 points may not seem significant, it DOES make a big different in game. That's 2 less bullets to kill, and it means that you MAY not get that second bite in.
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Both Flayra and the majority of the vets agreed that the health change was necessary to balance out the races. It intentionally gives the marines an advantage in 1on1 combat because this is necessary to counterbalance the aliens other advantages both in the early game and midgame.
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By the way, no need for base D with the elec TF and turrets. They are instant death to skulks.
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An electric TF+Turrets is considerably more res spent on defence than you will ever see in an alien hive early game. Even so an unguarded base, regardless of the amount of turrets, drops in seconds to 2-hive gorges or higher lifeforms.
Marines keep a base defender back in the majority of their games because it is necessary, this is in addition to the player lost to the command chair. The alien team by comparison have the luxury of neglecting base defence most of the time, because their excellent scouting, coupled with the marines very slow progression through the map makes it easy to see an attack coming. We've even defended attacks that entered our hive while an entire team was crossmap gorge ganging, simply by dropping a quick MC and porting back just before they arrived.
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However, of late no one was using the arms lab. It was 'upgrade armory' first and then HMG rush. While that was happening and the arms lab (and respective upgrades) were neglected, marines would continue to get killed by skulks. My personal opinion is that SHOULD be happening if you skip arms lab upgrades and just rush HMGs.
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Teams have been rushing HMGs because it is the only reasonable way of stopping the incredibly quick 30 res 2nd hive, that or a turret farm lockdown. The cost of just about everything for both teams has been reduced since 1.04, however, untill recently the arms lab upgrades have kept their original 1.04 price and research time. In a faster game with cheaper alternatives, the arms lab upgrades were not a viable option. For the cost of lv1->lv2 weapons, you could buy 3 HMGs. Since the game is decided early, and there is not enough time for multiple attacks on a hive before its completion, HMGs became the better option. This may change with the recent reduction in upgrade costs.
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The aliens don't have any damage upgrades, so they can't do greater damage in the later game. As such, they SHOULD be able to take on base marines easily initially since that encourages the marines to use their tech to defeat them.
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This doesn't even make any sense, the alien tech tree climbs way, way higher than the marine tech. Their 'weapon upgrades' are significantly more powerful lifeforms. You're describing a completely incorrect situation where aliens need to demolish a marine base early before marine tech over takes them. In reality the situation is completely the opposite. Marines, as in 1.04, have the burden of preventing the alien tech, however, unlike 1.04, they no longer have an easy time doing it.
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Look at it this way. If a L0 base marine with stock weapons can kill base skulks with ease in the beginning of the game, what will it be like when they get UPGRADES and they go up against skulks?
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If your team never progresses past skulks, you have probably lost anyway. By the time marines can have lv2 weapons researched, an alien team can now have a 2nd hive building. Lerks are available 30 seconds into the game, gorges are now stronger combat units than skulks, and weapon upgrades have never had significant effect against uncarapaced skulks due to rounding issues.
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If we go this road, what I fear is that aliens will again be forced to get carapace first and so the chamber order will be back to the old DMS.
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Yet the current popular chamber order is to get <b>no chamber first</b>, pumping all res into fast expansion because the upgrades are not needed. Where is this mentioned when you complain about the neglect of the arms lab?
That was common when there was no hive limit and people dropped two hives at once. With the hive restriction in place, the common first chamber is movement. Now I can see it changing to defense.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Both Flayra and the majority of the vets agreed that the health change was necessary to balance out the races. It intentionally gives the marines an advantage in 1on1 combat because this is necessary to counterbalance the aliens other advantages both in the early game and midgame.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Please don't take offense to this, (and I say that sincerely) but I find your remark highly conceited. There is more to the NS community than the VETs, and that is something I have been repeatdly trying to point out.
The problem is that this DOESN'T balance out the races. It gives the advantage to the marines and it will inevitably drive the chamber order to D-M-S since aliens will be forced to use carapace. As I noted in the beta info thread:
Everyone agrees that marines own aliens in 1.04 - that's not contested. However we're going to be back to the SAME problem we had before with these skulk values. Aliens are going to NEED to have carapace to stay competitive. Let's do the math:
1.04 Skulk with level 3 carapace took 16 level 0 LMG shots to kill.
2.0x Skulk with level 3 carapace takes 17 level 0 LMG shots to kill.
1.04 Skulk with level 3 carapace took 15 level 1 LMG shots to kill.
2.0x Skulk with level 3 carapace takes 15 level 1 LMG shots to kill.
1.04 Skulk with level 3 carapace took 14 level 2 LMG shots to kill.
2.0x Skulk with level 3 carapace takes 14 level 2 LMG shots to kill.
1.04 Skulk with level 3 carapace took 13 level 3 LMG shots to kill.
2.0x Skulk with level 3 carapace takes 13 level 3 LMG shots to kill.
So we're back to where we started. Lovely.
The idea behind the increase in health was to account for the more accurate LMGs (with the model and muzzle flash change) and to encourage use of other chambers. If skulk health is put back to the way it was (which is basically IDENTICAL to 1.04) then NS 2.0 becomes a failure in many ways. We fail to make the teams balanced for pub play, we fail to account for the more accurate marines, we fail to overcome the need to give the aliens options for chambers, and we fail to make 2.0 anything more than a pale 1.04 clone. The HMG is owning, as it does in 1.04, skulk health is the same. (as it was in 1.04)
What's changed? How are games going to be any different then they were before?
It's time testers started thinking about the public players.
Regards,
Savant
The problem is that this DOESN'T balance out the races.
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What do you base that comment on.
Unupgraded skulk versus stock marine will probably not be an even fight 1on1 with the health reduction. That is the intended effect. To compensate for advantages such as speed, 6 players out in the field at once, and the relative strength of gorges. The aim is balance when seeing the big picture, not balance when looking at one tiny aspect taken completely out of context.
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Everyone agrees that marines own aliens in 1.04 - that's not contested. However we're going to be back to the SAME problem we had before with these skulk values. Aliens are going to NEED to have carapace to stay competitive. Let's do the math:
1.04 Skulk with level 3 carapace took 16 level 0 LMG shots to kill.
2.0x Skulk with level 3 carapace takes 17 level 0 LMG shots to kill.
1.04 Skulk with level 3 carapace took 15 level 1 LMG shots to kill.
2.0x Skulk with level 3 carapace takes 15 level 1 LMG shots to kill.
1.04 Skulk with level 3 carapace took 14 level 2 LMG shots to kill.
2.0x Skulk with level 3 carapace takes 14 level 2 LMG shots to kill.
1.04 Skulk with level 3 carapace took 13 level 3 LMG shots to kill.
2.0x Skulk with level 3 carapace takes 13 level 3 LMG shots to kill.
So we're back to where we started. Lovely.
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I can't even decide where to begin commenting on that, for a start your 1.04 figures are wrong, but ignoring that for a second your comparison doesn't even have any relevance to the discussion. The reason DCs are not needed at the 1st hive is because of the difference carapace makes over the unupgraded skulk, not the final strength of carapace. Unupgraded 2.0 skulk is stronger than an unupgraded 1.04 skulk, and the additional health provided by carapace is less. The final result of skulk strength + carapace isnt relevant, what matters is the difference carapace makes to that equation. When compared to the advantages offered by movement or sensory (The chamber in general not just the upgrade) and when compared to the advantage of not taking any early chamber at all and pumping the res you save into something else. Even then, the strength of the skulk is only a tiny part of the overall balance, since unlike 1.04 you will not spend 90% of the game as a skulk. Gorges are used more than ever and are a strong combat class, fades are available a few minutes into the game and lerk is available about 30 seconds into the game. Leap can also become available very early on, and the ability to drop a 2nd chamber can also be available very early.
In otherwords, trying to compare 1.04 balance to 2.0 balance by looking at a couple of damage figures is pretty pathetic.
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What's changed? How are games going to be any different then they were before?
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Gee lets see:
- Hive costs 30 res and can be dropped only a couple of minutes after play starts.
- New resource system affords aliens thousands of different options in the early game as they have much more res to spend, this allows early game strats such as dropping 3 upgrade chambers in the first 30 seconds, or dropping mulitple resource nodes at the very start of the game
- New resource costs for defence structures makes the use of OCs to cover RTs and building hives an effective use of resources
- All evolutions available at 1 hive, which results in Onos appearing in mid game
- Marine tech tree reworked to prevent fast teching to higher technologies + JP crippled
- Alien tech tree reworked to allow early counters to marine technology inculding easy JP counters
- Gorges bumped in health, have greatly increased spit firing rate, and unupgraded are a good match for a stock marine
- New Resource system promotes use of multiple gorges in the early game
- Gorge healing ability magnifies strength of gorges when used in groups
And about 5 pages worth of other changes that completely redesign the game. But yea, the damage dealt by an upgraded LMG to a carapaced skulk is kind of similar, i'll give you that one....
Feell free to post your own numbers if you disagree, I'm using Kitsune's 1.04e values. However, the fact is the numbers have everything to do with the discussion. I'm looking at 1 BASE SKULK vs 1 BASE MARINE balance. Nothing more, nothing less. You have to start with the basics before you balance a game.
Everyone keeps trying to suggest that somehow skulk health is the ONLY factor in balancing aliens and marines in NS. Frankly, I disagree. The only thing that skulk health affects is the ability of a skulk to attack and kill a marine. While that ability to kill a marines DOES impact other aspects of the game, those are independant of the issue at hand.
If aliens are too strong as a team, then let's figure out why and address THOSE issues. Skulk health never won aliens any games, it's the fades/onos that do that. So there are other factors at play here that need looking at.
You can't water down NS to the single point of skulk health in a way to provide overall balance. It just won't work.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The reason DCs are not needed at the 1st hive is because of the difference carapace makes over the unupgraded skulk, not the final strength of carapace. Unupgraded 2.0 skulk is stronger than an unupgraded 1.04 skulk, and the additional health provided by carapace is less.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Based on current values the difference is negligible. You forget the fact that you keep applying VET logic to a general NS concern. I keep hearing about 6 man this or that and I know that you are not considering all the PEOPLE out here who are waiting to play 2.0 that don't play in a clan and who play NS for FUN.
NS won't be very fun for them if they play alien and get killed CONTINUALLY without being able to make any kills.
No offense, but it would be nice if you guys thought about the general public for a change. We have to consider EVERYONE who will be playing the game, not just clan players.
Let's be fair here please.
Regards,
Savant
<a href='http://www.geocities.com/kitsune/104stats.htm' target='_blank'>http://www.geocities.com/kitsune/104stats.htm</a>
Really, that's like saying Hl2 should be released now and tested by everyone.
What about the other way around? It seems vets were having a problem with it. If vets have a hard time with harder skulks then what about the less skilled general public?
<!--QuoteBegin--TeoH+Jul 20 2003, 05:13 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (TeoH @ Jul 20 2003, 05:13 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->6 players out in the field at once<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So we know it is balanced in a Clan match. Now I don't play in public games, but I rarely play scrimmages or matches, how much should <i>I</i> care about the balance in a clan match? Ask yourselves that, how much should <i>you</i> care (I am asking ervery one that reads this post)?
Skulks are fast. Both in terms of actual movement speed and their ability to bypass map obstacles. From a strategic standpoint, this means they can scout a large portion of the map, then quickly mass to counter marine expansion.
LMG marines have nowhere near the mobility of skulks. But they're better in combat. Sounds balanced to me.
WRT Lerks:
The 2.0 lerk sounds hosed. As in conceptually. As in, there doesn't seem to be many situations in which you'd say "argh! if only we had a lerk!" Skulks are just as mobile. Gorges are better for support. Fades have better ranged attacks. Aside from umbra-ing the hive, I don't really see a niche for the class. IMO. YMMV. IANAPT.
Ah, but at least you can respect him, thats a good thing.
yeah... you ever stop to think maybe people play both. It's like people taking sides here: Clanners VS Pubbers. OMG stop the h8te! Lifes too short!
I've read over all the arguements and I, like stated just now, can't back it up, but what he says sounds valid. Marines *should* move in groups, and a single rambo marine should, of course, be able to take a skulk now and then, but NOT be able to take out multiple skulks and get to where he's going, then build an rt or tf, and pick off more skulks. Marines are <b>supposed</b> to work together in NS, a single marine should <i>not</i> be able to destroy 8 skulks, build a tf, build turrets, then siege, without dying.
Thanks for your time <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
I've read over all the arguements and I, like stated just now, can't back it up, but what he says sounds valid. Marines *should* move in groups, and a single rambo marine should, of course, be able to take a skulk now and then, but NOT be able to take out multiple skulks and get to where he's going, then build an rt or tf, and pick off more skulks. Marines are <b>supposed</b> to work together in NS, a single marine should <i>not</i> be able to destroy 8 skulks, build a tf, build turrets, then siege, without dying.
Thanks for your time <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
IN 1.04 the multi-kills occured because the skulks usually come at you one by one. GG alien teamwork <!--emo&::nerdy::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/nerd.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='nerd.gif'><!--endemo-->
EDIT/NOTE: Notice I'm talking about 1.04 so my opinion is 100% valid. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->