Thank God For Savant And His Reasoning Skills.

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  • JRA_RendarJRA_Rendar Join Date: 2003-06-06 Member: 17042Members
    edited July 2003
    <i>EDITED</i>
    Ah, Well.....Savant managed a much more civil, and less argumenative response than I, so i shall follow that example, and just state that I think Savant knows more about balancing a game than criminal.
  • ZekZek Join Date: 2002-11-10 Member: 7962Members, NS1 Playtester, Constellation, Reinforced - Shadow
    edited July 2003
    <!--QuoteBegin--SlothropX+Jul 22 2003, 02:23 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (SlothropX @ Jul 22 2003, 02:23 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I hate to say it, but that's the sort of attitude that will keep people from ever being interested enough in the game to become veterans/clanners.  At any given time, the vast majority of a game's players are of middling skill level in public matches.  Alienate them by ignoring their unique concerns and you doom the mod to a slow death.

    As a former FLF veteran who had to watch that fine mod decay from a potential CS-killer to a twenty-server wonder, the process can happen faster than you think.  Clans are a very important part of the community, but they still depend on experienced pub players to renew and expand their ranks. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Um, what? I'm not saying that a pub player's input should be ignored; I am a pub player. I'm saying that vets and PTs should primarily be concerned with making sure the game is balanced for their unscheduled pub-style games as well as their scrims. Complaining about a particular feature that works fine in beta but might be bad for the "average joe" gamer is pointless and counter-productive. If the game is nearly perfectly balanced in the beta servers(which, as I said, contains both games that are just higher-skill pubs and clan scrimmages), then it will be at least quite good on most pubs.

    Simply put, there is only so much that can be done in a closed beta. The only thing PTs/Vets can really do is make sure it's as balanced as possible in their games. If the game is very well balanced in beta I guarantee you it won't be a horrid wreck in real pubs. When the game is truly balanced then the game will usually be determined by which team has the most skilled players on it, as it should be. It's been said before and I'll say it again; when the game is balanced with high-skill teams, it will most likely be pretty close to balance with low and medium-skill teams as well.

    Of course, it will need tweaking. I'm saying that the only way to really balance for real pubs is to release the game in as best shape as you can under the circumstances, and then try to fix any problems as fast as possible with additional patches. Why do you think 1.0 needed 4 serverside patches? In reality it was extremely unbalanced, moreso I'm sure than Flayra could have predicted when he released it. That didn't kill the community, and I can guarantee you judging by the feedback and the much more extensive testing that 2.0 will only be better.

    It's simply not feasible to improve beta balance based purely on theoretical problems. It could very well only make things worse when you find out that what you had before wasn't really a problem in the first place. The testers are there to play it and make suggestions based on fact and experience, and that simply can not be done with 100% accuracy with respect to the average pub gamers until the game actually goes live.
  • KwilKwil Join Date: 2003-07-06 Member: 17963Members
    I tend to agree with Zek in that we can only get it out in as good a shape as possible and then see what happens.

    Where I disagree is that I don't think that "skilled balance" necessarily means we have "unskilled balance" simply because of the very different nature of the teams. Consider that the aliens are very fast. Added to that, they have bhop capabilities, making them even faster. It could be with b-hop and speed combined you get a skulk that's very dangerous and very hard to kill, so we nerf them down to the point where it's balanced for the experts to play with. But when we hit pub play and the b-hop (which I tend to feel falls into the "expert" category) is not used with any regularity it may leave skulks greatly outclassed by even mediocre class marines.

    Adding to that worry is some of the attitudes that I've seen here. They seem to be along the lines of "if they're not as good as me, then they should just get better," and "everybody knows this is the way you do such and such." This kind of attitude doesn't lead me to believe that the testers actually are taking such considerations into account when testing.. meaning that what we are thinking is "as good a shape as possible" might be really way off base when it comes to players of average skill.

    Now none of this would matter a bit, as most of us here are here because we think NS is great and we can live with an imbalance, except for one thing.. the PR blitz is intended to pull in as many new players as possible, hopefully some of whom become constellation members. If the balance is way off for average skilled players, we're probably going to lose more than we should. This is why I'm worrying about these issues now.. I haven't played much, but what I have I've enjoyed. I don't want to see a bunch of new players turned off because testing concentrated too much on skilled play and skilled players rather than the swarms of new players we're hoping to attract.
  • TeoHTeoH Join Date: 2002-12-30 Member: 11640Members
    edited July 2003
    <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
    Guess what, your post is the first indication I've ever had that skulks have to jump to get hits. Snide remarks such as "(as should everyone by now)" do nothing to help the new player
    <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Of course its the first indication you've ever had, because jumping to extend your bite range is a 2.0 phenomenum, and you aren't playing 2.0. To anyone who is, the effect is obvious.

    I pose this question to anyone who has lapped up the '2.0 balanced only for veterans' rhetoric:

    Do you believe that a change, which was considered to be inbalanced after thorough and varied testing, in both a controlled and pub-like atmosphere, should be remade (Even after it has been shown to inbalance the game in testing) on a hunch (supported mainly by people who have never tested the game) that doing so might lead to improved play only at a low level.

    The increased skulk health has been tried, we've been there and got the T-shirt, you haven't. The reduction back down to 75/25 is seemingly supported by a majority of both PTs and Vets, as well as Flayra. The PTs, as already stated, are the best representations of the 'Average Joe' that the testing program has. It's hard to make this any simpler: We tried it, we found it inbalanced, and we changed it back. Now you may make all the complaints you like about testing not being a perfect simulation of a public server - but this doesn't change the results, testing did not indicate the higher skulk health to be a good change. There is no evidence from testing to suggest that the higher skulk health would be a better option in any environment.

    You can claim the testing does not represent all audiences, but this line of discussion does not imply that the skulk health should be 85/25. I can just as easily say that the skulk health should be made lower, because public server marines will not be as skilled or as organised as a group of vets. Again: The suggestion that testing does not represent all audiences does not imply skulk health is too low. To imply that you need additional evidence that skulks would be too weak when played at a lower level, and none exists. It would be very foolish to make a change based entirely on the hunch that it will create better pub balance, when all evidence we have suggests the change is undesirable.

    Now to educate some of the people who haven't played the game but insist that they are still able to argue over its balance. There are 2 groups of people testing 2.0, playtesters and veterans. The vets are recruited on a clan-by-clan basis to represent higher level organised teams. The PTs are taken mainly from people who post on this forum and have demonstrated good discussion ability, their skill levels vary greatly.

    The 2 groups play 2 different types of 2.0 game. Firstly the random 2.0 pub, which involves 2 teams with no prior organisation. I have seen pub games where nobody went command for over a minute, and i've seen pub games with superb organisation from both races. They are a truely mixed bag. The other gametype is a scrimm, this involves organised teams who have time pre-game to arrange strategies. The PTs also play these.

    Scrimm writeups can be found here:

    <a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?act=ST&f=30&t=35269&st=15' target='_blank'>http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/in...0&t=35269&st=15</a>

    To save you the trouble of counting, i believe at last check the scores were: 14 Marine wins, 26 Alien wins.

    For the publics, you will have to take my word for it that results tend to lean slightly in favour of the aliens. The difference is not as pronounced mainly because these games are such a mixed bag, and the random chance of 1 team or the other being stacked/doing something truely stupid causes results to even themselves out.

    As far as i can see, the general sentiment of both PTs and Vets are that aliens are currently too strong. For the clans playing recent scrimms, that sentiment is magnified greatly.

    To quote from the first page, savant believes the following:

    <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
    I see it differently, the marines ALWAYS had a chance, they just had to USE IT. The ONLY, and I mean ONLY reason marines EVER lost games up to this point (with higher skulk health) was lack of marine teamwork. Period. Any time marines worked as a group, they won the vast majority of games.
    <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    It appears certain people have taken this, and other comments that could be said to be outright lies, as a good indication of the current state of NS. For examples of balance when marines work in a group, see the previously linked scrimm results. Those of you who are concerned with balance in public servers may also want to take note: Even if the above were true (Which it isnt) do you think the organisation on a typical pub server will be greater than the organisation of the Vet scrimms, that apparently did not show enough teamwork to generate a marine win?

    Are we looking out for the pub players, or are we looking out for the alien players?

    Savant changes his stance on issues quicker than a 16 year old candy raver changes her hair colour. His actual argument is just so well hidden beneath mounds of soundbites that nobody even notices. Seeing him jump from viewpoint to viewpoint, even within the same discussion is hilarious. Now settle down and take an objective look at the thread. Savant would like the skulk health increased to 85/25, the majority of the other testers would not. That right there is the discussion, but by making comments such as "The vets only care about clanplay balance" and "A game balanced at clanplay cannot possibly work at a pub level" Savant has attempted to turn the debate into Testers vs. The well being of the general populace. Which is ridiculous.

    Although Savant is happy to state in every post he makes that he is the good guy looking out for the interests of the common man, how this exactly relates to skulks needing more health isnt particularly clear. The suggestion that public server alien vs. marine balance would lean considerably more towards marines than it has in all our testing is by far the shakiest assumption in this thread and there really isnt any substance to it. Speculation that aliens would need additional help, is no more valid than speculation about marine lack of organisation/ability, requiring an even lower skulk health.

    Savant started this skulk health debate with the proposition that Alien/Marine balance was fine and that 'the marines just needed to get better teamwork'. Since then he has switched between the following arguments:

    - Alien/Marine balance is ok, but Skulk and Marine should be changed to be equal in a 1on1 situation anyway.

    - Skulk isnt as 'fun' with the reduced health.

    - Skulk would be too weak in the imaginary public server games we haven't even played.

    - I'm looking out the for the common man and the veterans are only interested in clanplay, I also assume that in order to balance Aliens in the imaginary public server scenario that we have never tested, Aliens must be beefed to a level considered unbalanced in all versions we have tested.

    This will continue untill savant gets his 85/25, which i highly doubt he will ever get.

    <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
    i love reading savants posts becuase they go in depth BUT i rarly see him requesting things for marines, usually hes doing mostly aliens, so does that mean the rine part of equality is almsot finished? OR finished?
    <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Rather than taking Savant's posts as an indicator of the current balance, try seeing them as an indicator of Savant's desires. His comments on Alien/Marine balance are not shared by many in the testing program. Infact, his comments on Alien/Marine balance follow a certain trend that can be seen in all of Savant's posts, which i've grudgingly read all the way back to pre-1.04 times. See if you can guess what that trend is, here's a starting point:

    <a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?act=ST&f=5&t=21550&hl=savant' target='_blank'>http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/in...21550&hl=savant</a>
  • TorgoTorgo Join Date: 2002-12-30 Member: 11626Members
    Hmmm...anyone notice that this is starting to sound like more of a political image-smear campaign?
  • TeoHTeoH Join Date: 2002-12-30 Member: 11640Members
    <!--QuoteBegin--Torgo27+Jul 23 2003, 06:39 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Torgo27 @ Jul 23 2003, 06:39 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Hmmm...anyone notice that this is starting to sound like more of a political image-smear campaign? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
    It began to sound like that when, instead of continuing the balance discussion i started at the beginning of the thread, Savant commented on the fact that i was a vet and thus only concerned with Clanplay.

    "It's time testers started thinking about the public players."
  • SnidelySnidely Join Date: 2003-02-04 Member: 13098Members
    edited July 2003
    I think I would respect his opinion if he was more consistant with his views. Also, I wish he wouldn't try to dismiss arguments as being some sort of Vet agenda to mold NS to their liking, and theirs alone. That tells me more about him than the Vets. After all, it's not just the Vets who agree with the skulk stats being kept the way they are - it's the Vets <i>and Flayra</i>. It's a world of difference.

    On another note, I wish he'd stop using CAPITAL LETTERS to EMPHASISE his points. It gets very ANNOYING, very QUICKLY.
  • MaianMaian Join Date: 2003-02-27 Member: 14069Members, Constellation, Reinforced - Gold
    Very well said TeoH. Savant really is throwing arguments into the fray just to get that 85/25 skulk without much regard to consistency. I have the hardest time following his points because he keeps on changing them...
  • boobs!boobs! Old-School Competitor Join Date: 2002-11-13 Member: 8504Members
    you're not the only one, most human people dont have time to read boobks since most the vets and PTs would rather play than post...
  • ForlornForlorn Join Date: 2002-11-01 Member: 2634Banned
    <!--QuoteBegin--boobs+Jul 23 2003, 12:22 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (boobs @ Jul 23 2003, 12:22 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> you're not the only one, most human people dont have time to read boobks since most the vets and PTs would rather play than post... <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
    What a contridiction!

    "I don't have the time to read books," (or in this pitful use of words, he means make big well thought out posts) boobs is essentially saying, "but I can waste hours on end to play a game."

    <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Very well said TeoH. Savant really is throwing arguments into the fray just to get that 85/25 skulk without much regard to consistency. I have the hardest time following his points because he keeps on changing them... <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Curious. I can follow them easily. Have you tried reading them yet?(honest, I swear to god)



    <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I think I would respect his opinion if he was more consistant with his views. Also, I wish he wouldn't try to dismiss arguments as being some sort of Vet agenda to mold NS to their liking, and theirs alone. That tells me more about him than the Vets. After all, it's not just the Vets who agree with the skulk stats being kept the way they are - it's the Vets and Flayra. It's a world of difference.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    This is wrong. Savant was from the begainning, to the best of knowledge, was always for beefing up the skulk.

    On the other hand, it was the influence of both the vets and Flay from a lot of testing in one night that make the skulks 85 from 75.

    Now, they change it back.


    If anything, it's the others who aren't consistant with their views.

    However, whether or not consistancy even matters is another story for another day.
  • SnidelySnidely Join Date: 2003-02-04 Member: 13098Members
    edited July 2003
    Read TeoH's second to last post.

    He's being accused of being inconsistent regarding his reasons for wanting skulks to be raised to 85/25.
  • ZekZek Join Date: 2002-11-10 Member: 7962Members, NS1 Playtester, Constellation, Reinforced - Shadow
    edited July 2003
    <!--QuoteBegin--Forlorn+Jul 23 2003, 02:42 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Forlorn @ Jul 23 2003, 02:42 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> "I don't have the time to read books," (or in this pitful use of words, he means make big well thought out posts) boobs is essentially saying, "but I can waste hours on end to play a game." <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    It sure beats spending hours and hours making balance suggestions and rants based on theoretical issues rather an experience.

    <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->This is wrong.  Savant was from the begainning, to the best of knowledge, was always for beefing up the skulk.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Obviously. It seems that Savant is in favor of beefing up just about everything alien-related, at the expense of balance everywhere else. Did you read the thread posted where he suggests giving free L3 carapace to all aliens to make the other chambers more viable? The point here is that Savant continuously changes his justificaton of these changes, and almost always bases them on theoretical issues instead of beta experience. He seems to think that balance can be completely broken in beta and yet will magically fix itself when it's released to the public.

    <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->On the other hand, it was the influence of both the vets and Flay from a lot of testing in one night that make the skulks 85 from 75.

    Now, they change it back.

    If anything, it's the others who aren't consistant with their views.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    So? It was the influence of the beta players that inspired most of the changes, and yet many of them have still been repealed later. The simple fact is that it was tried in practice, and it <i>did not work</i>, so it was changed back. That's part of what the beta testing is for; to weed out the changes that don't work well despite how they sound on paper. Improving skulks sounded good at the time I'm sure, but it was unbalanced and was thus removed.

    Savant apparently refuses to recognize the validity of the testing results, and believes that the game should be further inbalanced during testing in an attempt to fix it for the real public games. Obviously Savant's objective - to improve Aliens - never changes, but his arguments certainly do. I find it interesting how he does not seem to think that it matters how balanced the game is during the beta "pubs"/scrims, as long as it fits with his view of the "average joe" player. The #1 objective is to make sure the game is balanced in beta, and after that it simply needs to be released and tweaked for real pub balance.


    I would be honestly curious to know how often Savant plays marines in 2.0, but apparently he isn't on the servers often enough for anyone to say.
  • Ph0enixPh0enix Join Date: 2002-10-08 Member: 1462Members, Constellation
    Watch it guys. This is beginning to become a bash Savant thread...
  • ZekZek Join Date: 2002-11-10 Member: 7962Members, NS1 Playtester, Constellation, Reinforced - Shadow
    Well, it did start out as a worship Savant thread. It probably shouldn't have been allowed to continue this long, seeing as the sole purpose seemed to be to incite debate on the skulk health issue. It certainly worked.
  • MonsieurEvilMonsieurEvil Join Date: 2002-01-22 Member: 4Members, Retired Developer, NS1 Playtester, Contributor
    edited July 2003
    This 'Savant is not there' is a myth started by vets who apparently believe when they close their eyes the world stops existing, because they cannot see it. Savant plays quite a lot. Stop using that as an argument, I already told them to as well. Savant is certainly far more experienced than you Zek (even if he only played one game of 2.0), so I'd suggest you stay away from this line of 'reasoning' until August 1st.

    And this topic is about to be locked an a lot of people are about to be temp banned if you don't get a whole lot more civil in here. I'm in no mood for this childish crap. No warnings, just gone. So get yourselves under control and act like men instead of babies. I don't need thousands of new players joining the forums in the next few weeks to see a bunch of whining arguments.
  • MonsieurEvilMonsieurEvil Join Date: 2002-01-22 Member: 4Members, Retired Developer, NS1 Playtester, Contributor
    In fact, it is locked. If it restarts somewhere else you will gone forever. I am incredibly disappointed in the behavior here and previously regrading savants credentials.
This discussion has been closed.