<!--QuoteBegin--ZERG!!+Jul 21 2003, 08:42 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (ZERG!! @ Jul 21 2003, 08:42 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Wow. In 1.04, marines win around at least 60% of the games I play in.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Unless you're talking about matches or scrims or play often in very large servers, please don't spread false information. K thnx <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Um, if you look at the context of which I was talking... then you should realize I'm speaking pub play.
ChurchMeatshield grunt-fodder // Has pre-ordered NS2Join Date: 2002-12-31Member: 11646Members, Constellation
Hmm...on the server I play on (the EVIL server) marines win more often than aliens. But then, like I've said that server is often populated by good clanners so everyone knows what he's doing, and it's decently easy to get organized. Oh it's also a 20 person server (although usually no more than 9v9 goes on because of reserved slots)
Zek, Savant's point is that skulking should be fun AND the game be balanced, not one or the other. The point that's being disputed is whether skulking is fun or not.
The way I see it, the difference of skill between a clan skulk and a "joe" skulk is less than the difference of skill between a clan marine and "joe" marine, on average. Thus, my initial impression is that Savant is wrong is suggesting that skulking won't be fun in pubs. In fact, I think it will even be more fun.
well like they said the game IS balanced right now... now its a matter of making it fun cuase they could probably release it right now cause they feel its balanced but without it being fun then... bah
Again, i must repeat i agree with Savant in just about every post. Someone in the Beta discussion mentioned Xeno allowing a Skulk to compete in the late game. I think this is negated by the fact that Xeno is a suacide attack...
<!--QuoteBegin--Zek+Jul 22 2003, 01:24 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Zek @ Jul 22 2003, 01:24 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> No, it really isn't. Xeno is the cheapest and one of the most effective weapons against HAs, and pretty much any marine for that matter. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Um, providing you can get close enough, of course.
<!--QuoteBegin--Forlorn+Jul 22 2003, 12:36 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Forlorn @ Jul 22 2003, 12:36 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--Zek+Jul 22 2003, 01:24 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Zek @ Jul 22 2003, 01:24 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> No, it really isn't. Xeno is the cheapest and one of the most effective weapons against HAs, and pretty much any marine for that matter. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Um, providing you can get close enough, of course.
You can still be smattered on the wall by an HMG. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Leap + Xeno = WMD
zerg has it . The major game ender in most 3 hive situations is xeno. Skulks spend 2 res on upgrades, becoming little tanks (cara) and silent assassins (silences) and then you don't have more than 50% chance of killing them before they get close enough to explode.
btw fyi we played the first 2.0x scrim last night, 6v6. It was 2-2 (4 alien wins). Really Savant has some great reasoning skills but he's off the moon when it comes to balance <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> Now with the skulk health reduced they are still very effective, but the marines have a chance to expand as a squad. This is important. However aliens mid-game is still too strong.
As for playing skulks on publics, I'm sure Joe average will be just as happy as he was playing on 1.04. The skulk starts with more health then 1.04 and takes a couple of extra bullets to kill which makes a <b>big</b> difference. Marine's aren't able to bunnyhop around the map at 50mph, giving the skulks alot more room for ambushing. Loads of people have posted the balance list already, suffice to say it is shaping up nicely.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->E-Th33ph: I'll update more to refute my statements if required.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Wow, a guy that not only makes statements, but promises to come back and refute them too. What more could anyone ask?
"I do not think that word means what you think it means...."
Seriously though, I almost never play aliens in 1.04 because I hate skulking. I'm willing to admit that it's in part because I'm not a great player, in part because I always have the worst ping on the server, which often makes it feel like rines can just take you out instantly. I like playing marines primarily because I really CAN make a difference there by actually listening to orders and getting things built and gaining intel. I hope that this role still exists in the new, clan-full-o-rambo world of 2.0
But personally, I think the greatest issue working against marine teamwork in 1.04 is the readyroom. It was a great idea in concept, but in execution it ruins the game: you get five losers in the marine cooridor jumping over each other, turning their flashlights on and off, and trying to "psyche" out the other readyroomers by pretending to run to the alien side and then hiding in a corner.
The result is that the vast majority of what will eventually be the marine team isn't there for the countdown. Even if they were, the countdown is often too short to permit any real strategy discussion when you are dealing with lag. I've seen many many games where begging someone to be comm lasted well into the start of the game, usually because no one even discusses it until after everyone is already running around (and half the people have already left the base to go rambo). And the fact of the matter is that the team CANNOT discuss strategy until the commander is chosen. But normally, by the time he is, it's too late: half the team has already left, and the skulk rush is already on its way. If something could be done about this (comm is picked prior to the countdown, by a vote or something) then pub play teamwork could be a whole lot better, and we wouldn't have to worry so much about skulk ownage. Remember that in pub play, half the time the comm is going to have to spend half his time coaching newbies in the importance of following orders and not ammoing up eternally.
Zek wrote: <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->This makes me wonder if you really don't understand what a big difference "hopping around" made in 1.04. Yes, most pub players don't technically bunnyhop. Most pub players do jump nonstop when a skulk gets close to them, and that in itself makes it considerably harder to kill them. I thought everyone knew that... The removal of this ability is a considerable boon to skulks.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->One problem Zek. That ability HASN'T been removed. In 2.0 you can hop around like a noob on crack if you want, there are no game restrictions on that. (really good marines can still do a backwards hop - run, jump, do a 180 in mid air and continue to fire at the hapless skulk with complete accuracy) The bunny hop issue has been addressed though. So if you try and bunny hop away from the skulk, you won't get much further away than if you ran at normal speed. There is no restriction on a marine's ability to jump at all. <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Even if they can't pull off a leap combo they can still use it to land next to a marine and then start biting rather than just barreling straight towards them and eating bullets.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->OK, and if they do leap in, while the skulk is weapon switching, the marine is pumping lead into them while hopping life mad. The skulk gets bite 1 in, and maybe bite 2, but is dead LONG before bite 3 since bite ROF is less than LMG rate of fire in regard to the amount of sustained time a person needs to concentrate fire on the enemy.
Ignoring accuracy for a moment, if player A has a weapon that will kill player B in 1 second, and player B has a weapon that will kill player A in 2 seconds, then does it matter if the INDIVIDUAL damage of player B's weapon is greater than player A's?
That momentary weapon switch, as brief as it may be, is yet another advantage to the marine since it gives him that much more time to start hopping and firing. <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I assume you've read the chatlog in this thread where Flayra says that he believes skulks should be weaker than marines(which deflates a large portion of your argument and I noticed you conveniently ignored). Marines deserve to have fun playing this game too, and in order to do that they need to be able to defend themselves without necessarily having the numbers advantage. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->Without the context of the comment in question, it's prety useless actually. I've heard Flayra say many things in direct opposition to this. If he actually felt this way then why make the change in the first place? I think he's just trying to work out the marine/alien balance issues. The quote really doesn't serve to do anything other than cloud the issues, that's why I passed on it. <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I admit that I cannot truly argue this point since I'm not in the beta, but I think you need to take the fun of both teams into consideration. Unbalanced games ARE NOT FUN, especially for the losing side(marines in this case). I'm sure it's very fun for a skulk when you can run right up and kill a marine without having to worry about playing intelligently and trying to ambush, but how fun is it to be killed that way?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Unbalanced games are not fun. I agree 100%. You wll not get an argument from me on that.
However, HOW you balance the game is as much, if not MORE important than the balance itself.
If aliens were winning too often we could have just created a new gun. Call it the 'mega death' gun. Free to marines, just click the armory. The gun would allow you to fire a shot and it would kill an alien, ANY alien, of any health and distance away. That would like fix some balance issues right? It would have made marines more balanced.
...but would it make things FUN for the aliens at all? No. THAT is the big problem here. People are so focused on balance they are neglecting to consider the fun aspect of skulk has been watered down because of this change.
Hey, don't take my word for it, you'll be able to see for yourself in a week. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
Sinan wrote: <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->btw fyi we played the first 2.0x scrim last night, 6v6. It was 2-2 (4 alien wins). Really Savant has some great reasoning skills but he's off the moon when it comes to balance Now with the skulk health reduced they are still very effective, but the marines have a chance to expand as a squad. This is important. However aliens mid-game is still too strong. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> You don't say? I guess changing skulk health really didn't have the impact people hoped. Perhaps we should drop it again. 50/10 sounds about right don't 'cha think? <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo--> That should fix any of those pesky mid-game problems.
Seriously though, Frikk actualy said it best: <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Now, unfortunately, because of our impending deadline, I think that the quality of balance is going to hurt. I see the lowering of skulk health as a quick fix to this problem. It works, don't get me wrong, and the end result is a balanced game. It's just that the 3 different stages aren't balanced. There are distinct advantages to the 2 races at different stages of their tech. Aliens have a poor early game, while they excell at endgame. The marines are strong in the early while they lack umph in the end. (This is all assuming equal tech.) <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Quick fixes like changing skulk health NEVER fix problems like the ones we have. It only makes matters worse. You can't have it both ways Sinan. If you balance the alien LATE game then you will cause the marine team to win more often since the alien early game is weaker.
Anyway, we'll see what happens. Balance is close now, (as a 2 hour epic game yesterday will attest to) so I don't see any more major balance changes being made.
Anyway, we'll see what happens. Balance is close now, (as a 2 hour epic game yesterday will attest to) so I don't see any more major balance changes being made.
Regards,
Savant
oh i absolutely can't wait til the changes flayra decided on last night are announced <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
oh i absolutely can't wait til the changes flayra decided on last night are announced <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Uh, I see another 7-pages-rant coming
in 1.04 an adrenaline carapace skulk could stand toe to toe with a jp hmg marine. And in1.04 an ambushing skulk with leap could kill an unsuspecting HA HMG in 2 seconds.
in 2.0 nothing will have changed but the damage. I have been unable to test the damage but no dought it will be no less than an fps of 60.0 (1.04), maybe even up to 80-85 fps. Xeno isnt what makes a skulk effective late game, its leap. at hive 2 a carapce adrenaline skulk can get just as many kills as a acid spaming fade, although getting kills with leap is much more difficult.
Theres no point in useing bite so dont. once the second hive goes up use nothing but leap just like me.
<!--QuoteBegin--NightCrawler.+Jul 22 2003, 08:36 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (NightCrawler. @ Jul 22 2003, 08:36 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> in 1.04 an adrenaline carapace skulk could stand toe to toe with a jp hmg marine. And in1.04 an ambushing skulk with leap could kill an unsuspecting HA HMG in 2 seconds. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> sorry but those must be some bad JPers...
<!--QuoteBegin--Frogg2+Jul 22 2003, 04:15 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Frogg2 @ Jul 22 2003, 04:15 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--NightCrawler.+Jul 22 2003, 08:36 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (NightCrawler. @ Jul 22 2003, 08:36 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> in 1.04 an adrenaline carapace skulk could stand toe to toe with a jp hmg marine. And in1.04 an ambushing skulk with leap could kill an unsuspecting HA HMG in 2 seconds. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> sorry but those must be some bad JPers... <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Ignore Nightcrawler, he has funny ideas <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
HAMBoneProbably the best CommanderJoin Date: 2003-04-02Member: 15139Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor
the fact is, in the beta, NOONE goes upgrades, you will rarely even see chambers before the 2nd hive is up, people save for higher lifeforms, and skulks still own marines. Its not going to get changed no matter what you say because absolutely noone who actually plays the game agrees with you. I've tried my best to be pretty active since the release of 2.0x and I havent seen you playing once, savant. How are you so sure this makes such a big difference?
Anyways, alien is about to get nerfed, again. Maybe this time it'll be so hard that aliens will need a boost again and skulk can get a little more hp, but i really doubt it. Its clear to just about everyone who actually plays the game that unupgraded skulks still dominate marines.
And as for my comment about every bite of mine still hitting, yes, thats because I understand the marine hitbox(as should everyone by now,) and yes, you have to jump. Obviously this is going to be fixed and the range is enourmous when you do use the jump(and just about everyone does) so I dont really see a problem.
<!--QuoteBegin--HAMBONE+Jul 22 2003, 09:46 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (HAMBONE @ Jul 22 2003, 09:46 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> And as for my comment about every bite of mine still hitting, yes, thats because I understand the marine hitbox(as should everyone by now,) and yes, you have to jump. Obviously this is going to be fixed and the range is enourmous when you do use the jump(and just about everyone does) so I dont really see a problem. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> As a fairly new player, I'd like to point out that Savants' comments about you being a vet obscuring your usefulness for pub balance are really verified with that quote. Thanks.
Guess what, your post is the first indication I've ever had that skulks have to jump to get hits. Snide remarks such as "(as should everyone by now)" do nothing to help the new player, and isn't the hope of this new expansion that it will bring in a lot of new players? That is why there's a PR blitz, after all.
So, since we're supposedly talking about pub play, why don't you think back to when you started NS.. because that's what us new folk are going to be like. We don't know to jump to get a hit. We don't know how to b-hop. Heck, most of us won't even know the maps for a while. These are the people who may be joining, but because *you* know the tricks of the trade, you seem to think that anything that affects your balance/fun factor is the be-all and end-all of the game.
Now, if the hitbox issues are going to be fixed, that's fine, but please realize that your experience and skill does not translate down to the lower levels.
HAMBoneProbably the best CommanderJoin Date: 2003-04-02Member: 15139Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor
edited July 2003
ITS GOING TO BE FIXED. If All vets jump and can hit marines from insane range and ITS GOING TO BE FIXED and be the same on the ground, then why should it even factor into the discussion(which is what savant is trying to do)? For the record, bites connect from the ground too, just not at the same new insane range that its "supposed" to connect at.
And if you had actually read this thread, this has been mentioned a few times before =\
And had you actually read my post, you would have seen that wasn't my point.
My point was, you are thinking like a vet, and seem to be unable to think of this from the point of view of new players -- who can't bhop, who are not terribly organized, and who do not know the most effective weapon to use in any given situation.
HAMBoneProbably the best CommanderJoin Date: 2003-04-02Member: 15139Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor
This entire time I have been looking at the game from the pub point of view, we basically only play pubs anyways, granted it may be a little better then your average pub(i've played in better) but we play pubs every day, thats what we balance for. Balancing an entire game for the first-time-ive-ever-played-this-game-guy is just plain stupid, the learning curve is harsh enough, i know Flayra is a big advocate of balancing for the LCD but there comes a point where you have to draw the line for the overall good of the game. As i've stated many times, 99% of vets are better at marine than they are at skulk, yet even with the 10hp reduction skulks with no upgrades are owning marines.
I WISH we were balancing it only for clan play, but its clear that Flayra doesnt want that so there's really no point in even trying. A balanced game at top levels is a balanced game at low levels, and while you need pubbers to add to competition the competitive sector is really the only thing that will keep a game alive. At some point a pubber is going to get bored of playing pubs every day and either decide to quit or to bring their game to the next level, if there is no next level then the game will die. You look at any game that has been successful for years and its probably going to be because they balanced the highest levels of play. Look at SC vs War3. Sure war3 sold alot but now a ~year after its release there are at least twice as many people playing SC on bnet than there are playing War3, mainly because war3 was written for the LCD and the end result is that people realize quickly how little depth the game has and give up on it.
And for the record, vets were SUPPOSED to balance clan play, PT's were supposed to balance pub play. Thats obviously not how it worked out, but from reading the posts and talking to pts in the testers IRC channel(which ive never seen savant in even once) its pretty clear that he is the only pt who feels that way, at least the only pt i've talked to who feels that way.
<!--QuoteBegin--HAMBONE+Jul 22 2003, 12:34 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (HAMBONE @ Jul 22 2003, 12:34 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> A balanced game at top levels is a balanced game at low levels <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> hehe, that must be the most important line of that post.
I have full faith in the vets when deciding what is 'balanced'. Yes, Vet skulks ARE much better then your run of the mill skulks, but so are their marines. If the vets are having trouble downing vet skulks, a similar trend will follow down at our level of play. The difference is between Bhopping skulks vs near-perfect tracking marines and normal running skulks vs pubber's average aim. Again, what is balanced for them is balanced for us.
Besides, who do you trust your balance to more? THE best NS players in the world, or some guy that really talks the talk, but rarely <!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::skulk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='skulk.gif'><!--endemo--> ?
Let's be honest here for a minute guys. We can argue all we want on how balanced the game is going to be in real pubs and in clan matches, but the fact is that there is only a limited amount of balancing that can actually be done in a closed beta. At one point or another, the game simply has to be released and that's when the real balance testing starts. I realize that most of the 2.0 games are basically playing like "pubs", just with a higher average skill on the players. The truth is that newbies and people who are just okay at the game are not represented in this beta test(though I'll say it again, a pub with 80% of the players on it being regulars who are pretty good is not uncommon), and the only way to know for sure what will happen is to wait a week and watch the post-release games.
In my opinion, the vets and PTs should be working on balancing 2.0 for their games in the beta and not theoretical "average joe" pub games. Once the closed beta participants are experiencing relatively complete balance between teams, the game is ready for release balance-wise as there is simply nothing further that can be done. At that point, the game will be released, and we can all start playing on real pubs to see exactly how well it works. Theorizing on how the game is going to perform in everyday pub servers when there's no way to know for sure is futile. Make no mistake; the game will need further balance patches no matter what, and the best we can hope for at this point is that the majority of the issues can be dealt with on 2.0X server patches.
I hate to say it, but that's the sort of attitude that will keep people from ever being interested enough in the game to become veterans/clanners. At any given time, the vast majority of a game's players are of middling skill level in public matches. Alienate them by ignoring their unique concerns and you doom the mod to a slow death.
As a former FLF veteran who had to watch that fine mod decay from a potential CS-killer to a twenty-server wonder, the process can happen faster than you think. Clans are a very important part of the community, but they still depend on experienced pub players to renew and expand their ranks.
All it takes is one bad release to scare off most of the community. I'd quality NS 2.0 a bad release if there are non-trivial balance problems on public servers. Far from just making some unsatisfying games, this can quite literally empty a server. If people think that team X will always have an advantage over team Y, a fair number of people simply won't play if they can't get onto team X. Sad and childish, yeah, but then no one likes it when a game is stacked against them.
I agree that balancing a game for the pubs is difficult, since it relies on thinking like an inexperienced player. Still, it is something that concerned NS players/devs should do, in order to assure the future success of the mod. And anyways, if there are some really fundamental incompatibilities between pub and vet play (i.e. a game setting that will always balance one sort of game but ruin the balance of the other type of game), couldn't these settings be migrated to tournament mode?
ChurchMeatshield grunt-fodder // Has pre-ordered NS2Join Date: 2002-12-31Member: 11646Members, Constellation
The point is, no one here except the PTs and the Vets really know what they're talking about when it comes to 2.0 becuase we HAVEN'T PLAYED IT! Flayra can release patches really QUICKLY should he observe gross imbalanced after 2.0 is release to the public.
And about pubbers being left in the dust? I don't think so. Again, since BOTH teams will have pubbers, BOTH sides will be having trouble in the beginning (with marines having slightly more trouble I predict at the very first few weeks) so it'll still be BALANCED! If it's balanced for High-skilled vs High-skilled then it'll be balanced for low-skilled vs low-skilled as well. One side will not 'massacre' the other because no one knows what to do yet! And by the time everyone knows what to do, the game will no longer be low-skilled vs low-skilled now will it?
Yeesh some of you people need to relax. When I first came to NS, I was a bit lost at first too, and skulking especially took a month or two to get decent, but I never ONCE found it SO hard that I wanted to quit! I joined in 1.03, back when marines owned all because of bigger seige range, automated seiges without LOS or scanning, PG had 3500 instead of 2000 health, ips cost 15 (I think), AND skulk health/armor was at 70/10 (that didn't change from 1.03 to 1.04) (I'm sure Savant would consider 70/10 SOOOO ridiculously unbalanced and that Sloth would think everybody would've quit by now right?) Now in spite of all of that I still ENJOYED playing aliens, and I asked lots of questions and I got BETTER! Other people have been doing and will continue to do the same as I did.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Again, since BOTH teams will have pubbers, BOTH sides will be having trouble in the beginning (with marines having slightly more trouble I predict at the very first few weeks) so it'll still be BALANCED! If it's balanced for High-skilled vs High-skilled then it'll be balanced for low-skilled vs low-skilled as well.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This assumes that skill has an equal effect on the success rate of both teams. Which is not a guarantee at this point. It may be that marines can do well with little skill and aliens need more skill to survive. It could then turn out that later, once the pubbers have developed their skills, that aliens can make better use of skill while the marines have a "cap" inherent in the design that prevents them from improving their success rate even though their skills get better.
Or it could end up being the other way around. If one team has a strategy that's easier to learn than the other team's strategies, that team will win more often in pub games with lots of noobs. If there is a team that has a greater potential for skills to come into play, that team will win more often with expert players.
But this is beside the point. The issue in this thread, from the very beginning, is that the game will be less fun if the marines are always using the same strat: HMG ASAP. There should be multiple viable strategies available to marines. That way the aliens can have multiple strategies as well, instead of figuring out the best counter to the single marine strategy and using that every time.
Flayra's decision to change the HMG's damage is excellent. This will balance things in favour of the aliens, and balance changes will need to be made to compensate. For the sake of the game's fun factor, it should be something other than just "putting back" HMG damage. Good ideas have already been posted, including making GLs more available, and easier to get ammo for. Make GLs just as viable a weapon as the HMG, and there will be a forced set of strategy decisions that will make each game different. Which is exactly what we want.
Comments
Unless you're talking about matches or scrims or play often in very large servers, please don't spread false information. K thnx <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Um, if you look at the context of which I was talking... then you should realize I'm speaking pub play.
Kthxbyegghfgl
The way I see it, the difference of skill between a clan skulk and a "joe" skulk is less than the difference of skill between a clan marine and "joe" marine, on average. Thus, my initial impression is that Savant is wrong is suggesting that skulking won't be fun in pubs. In fact, I think it will even be more fun.
Someone in the Beta discussion mentioned Xeno allowing a Skulk to compete in the late game. I think this is negated by the fact that Xeno is a suacide attack...
Um, providing you can get close enough, of course.
You can still be smattered on the wall by an HMG.
Um, providing you can get close enough, of course.
You can still be smattered on the wall by an HMG. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Leap + Xeno = WMD
btw fyi we played the first 2.0x scrim last night, 6v6. It was 2-2 (4 alien wins). Really Savant has some great reasoning skills but he's off the moon when it comes to balance <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> Now with the skulk health reduced they are still very effective, but the marines have a chance to expand as a squad. This is important. However aliens mid-game is still too strong.
As for playing skulks on publics, I'm sure Joe average will be just as happy as he was playing on 1.04. The skulk starts with more health then 1.04 and takes a couple of extra bullets to kill which makes a <b>big</b> difference. Marine's aren't able to bunnyhop around the map at 50mph, giving the skulks alot more room for ambushing. Loads of people have posted the balance list already, suffice to say it is shaping up nicely.
Wow, a guy that not only makes statements, but promises to come back and refute them too. What more could anyone ask?
"I do not think that word means what you think it means...."
Seriously though, I almost never play aliens in 1.04 because I hate skulking. I'm willing to admit that it's in part because I'm not a great player, in part because I always have the worst ping on the server, which often makes it feel like rines can just take you out instantly. I like playing marines primarily because I really CAN make a difference there by actually listening to orders and getting things built and gaining intel. I hope that this role still exists in the new, clan-full-o-rambo world of 2.0
But personally, I think the greatest issue working against marine teamwork in 1.04 is the readyroom. It was a great idea in concept, but in execution it ruins the game: you get five losers in the marine cooridor jumping over each other, turning their flashlights on and off, and trying to "psyche" out the other readyroomers by pretending to run to the alien side and then hiding in a corner.
The result is that the vast majority of what will eventually be the marine team isn't there for the countdown. Even if they were, the countdown is often too short to permit any real strategy discussion when you are dealing with lag. I've seen many many games where begging someone to be comm lasted well into the start of the game, usually because no one even discusses it until after everyone is already running around (and half the people have already left the base to go rambo). And the fact of the matter is that the team CANNOT discuss strategy until the commander is chosen. But normally, by the time he is, it's too late: half the team has already left, and the skulk rush is already on its way. If something could be done about this (comm is picked prior to the countdown, by a vote or something) then pub play teamwork could be a whole lot better, and we wouldn't have to worry so much about skulk ownage. Remember that in pub play, half the time the comm is going to have to spend half his time coaching newbies in the importance of following orders and not ammoing up eternally.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->This makes me wonder if you really don't understand what a big difference "hopping around" made in 1.04. Yes, most pub players don't technically bunnyhop. Most pub players do jump nonstop when a skulk gets close to them, and that in itself makes it considerably harder to kill them. I thought everyone knew that... The removal of this ability is a considerable boon to skulks.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->One problem Zek. That ability HASN'T been removed. In 2.0 you can hop around like a noob on crack if you want, there are no game restrictions on that. (really good marines can still do a backwards hop - run, jump, do a 180 in mid air and continue to fire at the hapless skulk with complete accuracy) The bunny hop issue has been addressed though. So if you try and bunny hop away from the skulk, you won't get much further away than if you ran at normal speed. There is no restriction on a marine's ability to jump at all.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Even if they can't pull off a leap combo they can still use it to land next to a marine and then start biting rather than just barreling straight towards them and eating bullets.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->OK, and if they do leap in, while the skulk is weapon switching, the marine is pumping lead into them while hopping life mad. The skulk gets bite 1 in, and maybe bite 2, but is dead LONG before bite 3 since bite ROF is less than LMG rate of fire in regard to the amount of sustained time a person needs to concentrate fire on the enemy.
Ignoring accuracy for a moment, if player A has a weapon that will kill player B in 1 second, and player B has a weapon that will kill player A in 2 seconds, then does it matter if the INDIVIDUAL damage of player B's weapon is greater than player A's?
That momentary weapon switch, as brief as it may be, is yet another advantage to the marine since it gives him that much more time to start hopping and firing.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I assume you've read the chatlog in this thread where Flayra says that he believes skulks should be weaker than marines(which deflates a large portion of your argument and I noticed you conveniently ignored). Marines deserve to have fun playing this game too, and in order to do that they need to be able to defend themselves without necessarily having the numbers advantage. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->Without the context of the comment in question, it's prety useless actually. I've heard Flayra say many things in direct opposition to this. If he actually felt this way then why make the change in the first place? I think he's just trying to work out the marine/alien balance issues. The quote really doesn't serve to do anything other than cloud the issues, that's why I passed on it.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I admit that I cannot truly argue this point since I'm not in the beta, but I think you need to take the fun of both teams into consideration. Unbalanced games ARE NOT FUN, especially for the losing side(marines in this case). I'm sure it's very fun for a skulk when you can run right up and kill a marine without having to worry about playing intelligently and trying to ambush, but how fun is it to be killed that way?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Unbalanced games are not fun. I agree 100%. You wll not get an argument from me on that.
However, HOW you balance the game is as much, if not MORE important than the balance itself.
If aliens were winning too often we could have just created a new gun. Call it the 'mega death' gun. Free to marines, just click the armory. The gun would allow you to fire a shot and it would kill an alien, ANY alien, of any health and distance away. That would like fix some balance issues right? It would have made marines more balanced.
...but would it make things FUN for the aliens at all? No. THAT is the big problem here. People are so focused on balance they are neglecting to consider the fun aspect of skulk has been watered down because of this change.
Hey, don't take my word for it, you'll be able to see for yourself in a week. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
Sinan wrote:
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->btw fyi we played the first 2.0x scrim last night, 6v6. It was 2-2 (4 alien wins). Really Savant has some great reasoning skills but he's off the moon when it comes to balance Now with the skulk health reduced they are still very effective, but the marines have a chance to expand as a squad. This is important. However aliens mid-game is still too strong. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You don't say? I guess changing skulk health really didn't have the impact people hoped. Perhaps we should drop it again. 50/10 sounds about right don't 'cha think? <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo--> That should fix any of those pesky mid-game problems.
Seriously though, Frikk actualy said it best:
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Now, unfortunately, because of our impending deadline, I think that the quality of balance is going to hurt. I see the lowering of skulk health as a quick fix to this problem. It works, don't get me wrong, and the end result is a balanced game. It's just that the 3 different stages aren't balanced. There are distinct advantages to the 2 races at different stages of their tech. Aliens have a poor early game, while they excell at endgame. The marines are strong in the early while they lack umph in the end. (This is all assuming equal tech.) <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Quick fixes like changing skulk health NEVER fix problems like the ones we have. It only makes matters worse. You can't have it both ways Sinan. If you balance the alien LATE game then you will cause the marine team to win more often since the alien early game is weaker.
Anyway, we'll see what happens. Balance is close now, (as a 2 hour epic game yesterday will attest to) so I don't see any more major balance changes being made.
Regards,
Savant
Regards,
Savant
oh i absolutely can't wait til the changes flayra decided on last night are announced <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Tease <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
oh i absolutely can't wait til the changes flayra decided on last night are announced <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Uh, I see another 7-pages-rant coming
I'm ready.
in 2.0 nothing will have changed but the damage. I have been unable to test the damage but no dought it will be no less than an fps of 60.0 (1.04), maybe even up to 80-85 fps. Xeno isnt what makes a skulk effective late game, its leap. at hive 2 a carapce adrenaline skulk can get just as many kills as a acid spaming fade, although getting kills with leap is much more difficult.
Theres no point in useing bite so dont. once the second hive goes up use nothing but leap just like me.
<!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
sorry but those must be some bad JPers...
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
sorry but those must be some bad JPers... <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ignore Nightcrawler, he has funny ideas <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
Anyways, alien is about to get nerfed, again. Maybe this time it'll be so hard that aliens will need a boost again and skulk can get a little more hp, but i really doubt it. Its clear to just about everyone who actually plays the game that unupgraded skulks still dominate marines.
And as for my comment about every bite of mine still hitting, yes, thats because I understand the marine hitbox(as should everyone by now,) and yes, you have to jump. Obviously this is going to be fixed and the range is enourmous when you do use the jump(and just about everyone does) so I dont really see a problem.
As a fairly new player, I'd like to point out that Savants' comments about you being a vet obscuring your usefulness for pub balance are really verified with that quote. Thanks.
Guess what, your post is the first indication I've ever had that skulks have to jump to get hits. Snide remarks such as "(as should everyone by now)" do nothing to help the new player, and isn't the hope of this new expansion that it will bring in a lot of new players? That is why there's a PR blitz, after all.
So, since we're supposedly talking about pub play, why don't you think back to when you started NS.. because that's what us new folk are going to be like. We don't know to jump to get a hit. We don't know how to b-hop. Heck, most of us won't even know the maps for a while. These are the people who may be joining, but because *you* know the tricks of the trade, you seem to think that anything that affects your balance/fun factor is the be-all and end-all of the game.
Now, if the hitbox issues are going to be fixed, that's fine, but please realize that your experience and skill does not translate down to the lower levels.
And if you had actually read this thread, this has been mentioned a few times before =\
My point was, you are thinking like a vet, and seem to be unable to think of this from the point of view of new players -- who can't bhop, who are not terribly organized, and who do not know the most effective weapon to use in any given situation.
I WISH we were balancing it only for clan play, but its clear that Flayra doesnt want that so there's really no point in even trying. A balanced game at top levels is a balanced game at low levels, and while you need pubbers to add to competition the competitive sector is really the only thing that will keep a game alive. At some point a pubber is going to get bored of playing pubs every day and either decide to quit or to bring their game to the next level, if there is no next level then the game will die. You look at any game that has been successful for years and its probably going to be because they balanced the highest levels of play. Look at SC vs War3. Sure war3 sold alot but now a ~year after its release there are at least twice as many people playing SC on bnet than there are playing War3, mainly because war3 was written for the LCD and the end result is that people realize quickly how little depth the game has and give up on it.
And for the record, vets were SUPPOSED to balance clan play, PT's were supposed to balance pub play. Thats obviously not how it worked out, but from reading the posts and talking to pts in the testers IRC channel(which ive never seen savant in even once) its pretty clear that he is the only pt who feels that way, at least the only pt i've talked to who feels that way.
hehe, that must be the most important line of that post.
I have full faith in the vets when deciding what is 'balanced'. Yes, Vet skulks ARE much better then your run of the mill skulks, but so are their marines. If the vets are having trouble downing vet skulks, a similar trend will follow down at our level of play. The difference is between Bhopping skulks vs near-perfect tracking marines and normal running skulks vs pubber's average aim. Again, what is balanced for them is balanced for us.
Besides, who do you trust your balance to more? THE best NS players in the world, or some guy that really talks the talk, but rarely <!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::skulk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='skulk.gif'><!--endemo--> ?
In my opinion, the vets and PTs should be working on balancing 2.0 for their games in the beta and not theoretical "average joe" pub games. Once the closed beta participants are experiencing relatively complete balance between teams, the game is ready for release balance-wise as there is simply nothing further that can be done. At that point, the game will be released, and we can all start playing on real pubs to see exactly how well it works. Theorizing on how the game is going to perform in everyday pub servers when there's no way to know for sure is futile. Make no mistake; the game will need further balance patches no matter what, and the best we can hope for at this point is that the majority of the issues can be dealt with on 2.0X server patches.
I hate to say it, but that's the sort of attitude that will keep people from ever being interested enough in the game to become veterans/clanners. At any given time, the vast majority of a game's players are of middling skill level in public matches. Alienate them by ignoring their unique concerns and you doom the mod to a slow death.
As a former FLF veteran who had to watch that fine mod decay from a potential CS-killer to a twenty-server wonder, the process can happen faster than you think. Clans are a very important part of the community, but they still depend on experienced pub players to renew and expand their ranks.
All it takes is one bad release to scare off most of the community. I'd quality NS 2.0 a bad release if there are non-trivial balance problems on public servers. Far from just making some unsatisfying games, this can quite literally empty a server. If people think that team X will always have an advantage over team Y, a fair number of people simply won't play if they can't get onto team X. Sad and childish, yeah, but then no one likes it when a game is stacked against them.
I agree that balancing a game for the pubs is difficult, since it relies on thinking like an inexperienced player. Still, it is something that concerned NS players/devs should do, in order to assure the future success of the mod. And anyways, if there are some really fundamental incompatibilities between pub and vet play (i.e. a game setting that will always balance one sort of game but ruin the balance of the other type of game), couldn't these settings be migrated to tournament mode?
And about pubbers being left in the dust? I don't think so. Again, since BOTH teams will have pubbers, BOTH sides will be having trouble in the beginning (with marines having slightly more trouble I predict at the very first few weeks) so it'll still be BALANCED! If it's balanced for High-skilled vs High-skilled then it'll be balanced for low-skilled vs low-skilled as well. One side will not 'massacre' the other because no one knows what to do yet! And by the time everyone knows what to do, the game will no longer be low-skilled vs low-skilled now will it?
Yeesh some of you people need to relax. When I first came to NS, I was a bit lost at first too, and skulking especially took a month or two to get decent, but I never ONCE found it SO hard that I wanted to quit! I joined in 1.03, back when marines owned all because of bigger seige range, automated seiges without LOS or scanning, PG had 3500 instead of 2000 health, ips cost 15 (I think), AND skulk health/armor was at 70/10 (that didn't change from 1.03 to 1.04) (I'm sure Savant would consider 70/10 SOOOO ridiculously unbalanced and that Sloth would think everybody would've quit by now right?) Now in spite of all of that I still ENJOYED playing aliens, and I asked lots of questions and I got BETTER! Other people have been doing and will continue to do the same as I did.
This assumes that skill has an equal effect on the success rate of both teams. Which is not a guarantee at this point. It may be that marines can do well with little skill and aliens need more skill to survive. It could then turn out that later, once the pubbers have developed their skills, that aliens can make better use of skill while the marines have a "cap" inherent in the design that prevents them from improving their success rate even though their skills get better.
Or it could end up being the other way around. If one team has a strategy that's easier to learn than the other team's strategies, that team will win more often in pub games with lots of noobs. If there is a team that has a greater potential for skills to come into play, that team will win more often with expert players.
But this is beside the point. The issue in this thread, from the very beginning, is that the game will be less fun if the marines are always using the same strat: HMG ASAP. There should be multiple viable strategies available to marines. That way the aliens can have multiple strategies as well, instead of figuring out the best counter to the single marine strategy and using that every time.
Flayra's decision to change the HMG's damage is excellent. This will balance things in favour of the aliens, and balance changes will need to be made to compensate. For the sake of the game's fun factor, it should be something other than just "putting back" HMG damage. Good ideas have already been posted, including making GLs more available, and easier to get ammo for. Make GLs just as viable a weapon as the HMG, and there will be a forced set of strategy decisions that will make each game different. Which is exactly what we want.