Sinan wrote: <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->If this is the case then can you explain why every bloody game on the vets servers goes to an alien win. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->Com'on, that's inaccurate and you know it. Most VETs have already acknowledged that the ratio was more like 60:40, so please spare us the inaccurate generalizations. <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Yes the public games will have half the teamwork which goes on in vets games. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->Sprry, I disagree. While the level of teamwork in a SCRIM will be greatly above that on a pub, my observations of VET gameplay on the open test servers has NOT seen any great level of teamwork. Sure the VET are all great INDIVIDUAL players, and they are great players as a team when in a SCRIM, but when playing for 'fun' the level of temawork can vary from highly cohesive to that of a team of NSPlayers. <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->now you're going to repeat your original point without taking into note the 15+ posts in this thread all saying, 'yeah ok savant nice idea but no one else agrees with you'.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->No, I'm going to reiterate my postition WHILE taking into the 15+ posts of people who agree with me. You have your opinion, that's fine. It doesn't make you right or wrong.
Zek wrote: <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Anyway, Savant, you say you're interested in keeping the game balanced for the average player, yes? And in order to do that you want to make it so marines lose every game unless they act flawlessly as a team? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> You're reading too much of the rhetoric. Try reading MY posts for a change and not those replying to me.
I have never said that for marines to win they HAVE to play a flawless game, but I HAVE said that marines SHOULD be playing as a team to be 'successful'. The level of teamplay will vary their success. This isn't anything new, this is how Flayra DESIGNED THE GAME! Marines were designed to play as a team. If people don't accept it and change how they play to take this into account, then they will not be as successful as those who do.
Answer me this. On the pubs you have seen the dreaded JP/HMG rush done MANY a time right? OK, now one could argue that it is quite a feat for 'pub' marines to group up in order to pull off such a rush. However, the pubbers learned that if they do *X* strat as a group then they will be rewarded with *Y* win. Based on your assessment marines shouldn't be winning on pubs NOW since they never have teamwork, but they DO win often. Why? ...because they can exploit a game imbalance to their advantage. The fact that they are 'pubbers' does NOT make them idiots. If they know they can win in a certain way, most of them will do it. <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Is it your opinion that aliens deserve to win 90% of the pub games simply because the marines are not usually capable of being that organized?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->No, it's my opinion that as the level of marine teamplay drops their potential chance to win should drop in proportion to the increasing level of alien teamwork. Does that equal 90%? No. Where you are pulling out these numbers from is beyond me. Please, next time QUOTE me before suggesting that I hold a certain opinion when I haven't said as such.
As eggmac has noted, I too am frustrated that people have taken 'sides'. This isn't about sides this is about NS. I one ONE and only ONE concern in my role as PT for NS, and that is to help make this mod the best it can be. I've seen mods with great potential (like FA) crash and burn, and I don't want to see that happen here. So I would ask people who are getting hot and bothered by this thread to take a step back for a moment. Cease the attacks against others and remember why we're here. Yes we all have our opinions, but let's not let opinions make our behavior towards others denigrate. Let's be nice please.
I'm going to try and wrap up this thread in order to try and minimize further frustration for all. In the end I look at it this way...
-If the game is balanced (as it is now) so that the vast majority of VETs are happy with it, then it is NOT balanced properly. If you balance the game strictly for the clanners than the public will sufer. -If the game is balanced (as it was) so that the majority of PTs were happy with it, then it is NOT balanced properly. If you balance the game strictly for the public then the clans will suffer.
The REAL balance will be achieved somewhere in the middle, when NEITHER side is completely happy with it, but when both sides can still have a good fun game nevertheless. Isn't that what we all want?
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Sprry, I disagree. While the level of teamwork in a SCRIM will be greatly above that on a pub, my observations of VET gameplay on the open test servers has NOT seen any great level of teamwork. Sure the VET are all great INDIVIDUAL players, and they are great players as a team when in a SCRIM, but when playing for 'fun' the level of temawork can vary from highly cohesive to that of a team of NSPlayers. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
thats the single most disgusting statement ive ever seen u come up with, if u think in any way that the level of teamplay on the test servers is anything similar to a regular server, you are absolutely on cloud 9.
Savant I can respect your opinion in almost every subject that I disagree with you on. You think lerks are weak, I ran a poll and 95% of the VETs think they're fine. However you are entitled to your opinion thats fine.
I can not respect your ignorance of the team work involved in a typical VET game. For you guys who aren't play testing I'll outline two typical games, one of them you will be familiar with:
1.04 game played last nite on ns_nothing as marines:
Game started, I waited in base whilst some comm hopped in the chair and said 'they have via lets relocate cargo'. Ok so off i went with 3 other marines to cargo, the other 2 marines decided they'd go to port engine for no reason so buggered off. We got to cargo, managed to kill 2 skulks on the way and lose a marine. Two of us built up cargo and the comm started mining the new base and getting up res. Out of the 7 marines only 3 of them were actively listening to the comm, the other 4 were generally buggering about being useless. I was not frustrated as this is what I'd expect, the usual ratio on a public game is about 50:50 for skilled players who know what they're doing and newbies. Anyway we managed to tech to jp hmg, only 3 of us hit viaduct which was well OCd and we died. Silo came up game over.
Thats a typical public game, I've played hundreds of them it went the way I expected, sometimes there are more skilled marines and the jp/hmg goes faster and we win. Sometimes there are more newbies and the tech never happens.
Now a typical ns 2.0 game.
Map starts on veil and pandas|jojoshua gets in the chair. Immediately 3 marines run off to the first res he tells us to build whilst the other two build up the base defences. Everyone is on voicecommes. Jojosh hotgroups 2 squads, and we have an offence squad of 3 marines and a defence squad of 2. I'm in the defence squad and under his orders go to the res towers furthest from their hive and manage to get two up with my buddy, and electrified. The offence squad hit the aliens starting res in a beautiful hail of LMG and take it down. They then pull back in a lovely coordinated movement, everyone covering each other and take down the alien res tower outside the hive. At this point a lerk starts sporing them, and 3 skulks come bounding out and they are cut down. With 3 res towers and our 3 offence marines back in base the comm sends them to the empty alien hive. Our 3 men quickly lock it down, gaining us another res tower and putting up sentries. Meanwhile our 2 defence marines have been keeping the base and res safe, and comm has been teching to hmg and phasegates. We get a portal opened between our hive and spawn and our 3 men come back for hmgs. They make a rush on the aliens building hive but the entire alien team teleports in via MCs and the 3 hmgs have no chance against 2 fades, 2 gorges and 2 skulks. Jojosh quickly techs to HA as we know they will have 2 hives. The aliens reach 2 hives and one of the skulks goes onos. Even AFTER taking down their starting res and first res tower its still easy to get an onos if that alien hasn't evolved yet. The onos tackles 3 HA HMG/GL with his stomp and whilst they're tied up the 2 gorges bile the hell out of our locked down hive. Typical, easy, alien win.
The level of teamwork for marines in that game was common to what I expect on test servers, and simply outstanding compared to a 1.04 public. I feel disgusted that you think there will be more teamwork on a public server where players are often unfamiliar with the maps/game and do not spend the 15+ hours a week playing ns that the testers do. This is not an insult to the public community, I might be in a clan but I spend 90% of my time practicing and enjoying games on public servers. My point is very simple, the level of teamwork achieved when you bring together some of the best marines ns has, is outstanding. It is idiotic to assume that this level of teamwork is less than will be seen on public servers.
All Savant's 'make the aliens better' posts revolve around his point that on publics the marines will be such an elite team that they will conquer the aliens. Please don't believe that the level of teamwork you will see on public servers will approach that on the test servers in any more then 5% of the games you play.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Please don't believe that the level of teamwork you will see on public servers will approach that on the test servers in any more then 5% of the games you play.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Of course not, because only certain people were allowed to play. Not everyone was.
The problem is that if one team can dominate completely over the other in any way it will make the game boring for the majority of players which is his point. I am so far not convinced this is a problem yet and would rather see NS 2.0 for myself now without any further fudging.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The problem is that if one team can dominate completely over the other in any way it will make the game boring for the majority of players which is his point. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not to take any sides, I would still like to make some comments.
First off, why are you trying to balance a mod for imaginary "avarage joes" when only thing in the pool you have is high quality "veterans"? I'd think devs would have searched out more suckier players (plenty of those around!) if they believed that public games didn't go towards clan games in the long run. I've played plenty enough mods and games to notice that public games become more and more like clan games (like I said about 2 pages ago) in the long run so it's better to balance for clans ("ideal" balance) than imaginary people you don't even play with. You balance for the people you play with, let devs choose who you play with.
Second, if you think "veterans" and the best of the best don't teamwork, maybe NS just doesn't support teamwork to the level you wan't? Maybe you'd like to see marines go in a squad of 4-5 men when team has 6, but veterans can clearly see that this is not practical or realistic (considering size of the map, aliens' high mobility etc.). I don't even expect 2.0 to give perfect teamwork, because I don't really see there are enough tools. You would need to add more special features to support large-scale teamwork like wave-spawning, smaller maps, radius-bonus for teams and yadda yadda... You can't just go making marines suck alone against skulks and then expect marine groups to be as strong as skulk groups by directly messing with health.
HAMBoneProbably the best CommanderJoin Date: 2003-04-02Member: 15139Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor
edited July 2003
The fact is that skulks are still too good. I'd like to see a further decrease in health and armor, by 5 each, to either 70/25(+15 cara from 1.04) or 70/20(+10 cara from 1.04)
Examine these changes(again, since noone seems to have responded) and you decide for yourself if skulking is going to be too hard:
<b>Changes to Marine vs Skulk battles in 2.0</b> Beneficial changes to skulk: - Marine Bunnyhopping removed - Skulk bite radius increased - Skulk base health raised +5 - Skulk base armor raised +15 - Skulk speed increased slightly(without carapace) - Skulk viewpoint is more "widescreen" - can see a wider area than before - Skulk bites at the same speed but the model is faster to make it easier(your mouth is closed less often for the same amount of bites) - The skulk model is considerably more disorienting, especially when running next to walls - Hives now cost 30 res, hive 2 skills(leap) can be obtained very easily
The ONLY beneficial change to marines: - Marine lmg model blocks slightly less than before(and believe me, its a little bit easier to aim, but it doesnt really affect anything)
Now how can you read that and still believe what savant is saying? Even in the current version skulks with no upgrades are consistently owning marines. Skulks are still too strong in my opinion.
Hambone you forgot that the bunnyhopping speed-cap on skulks has been increased <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> I have a demo of one of my clan mates getting from maint-hive to marine start on eclipse in about 4 seconds. We tried to shoot him but simply couldn't get the bullets to land when he was moving that fast. Regards decreasing the skulk health further, I'd like to play more 2.0x games to test that. All my point was on this thread is to prevent the rediculous 'powering-up' of the skulk again.
I just think that if marines get their crap together and follow a WP in a group, and listen to a commanders instructions, that would work for me. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
Hm I feel a bit uncomfortable doing this, but I guess it's best to bring some light into the reasoning of Flayra. I talked to him about it on IRC before 2.0x was even released and the official word on this when the change was made was as following:
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->[02:09] <fwd-eggmac> why has skulk hp been decreased again? [02:09] <fwd-eggmac> just wondering [02:10] <fwd-eggmac> skulk vs marine was absolutely even [02:10] <Flayra|Dinner> Seemed out of whack, and we had a big discussion about it last night [02:10] <Flayra|Dinner> Yeah, they were even, but I think that's not desired [02:10] <Flayra|Dinner> Basically, given that gorges are at least as good as skulks, and the fact that marines have a dedicated comm, and given that marines move slower then skulks, marines have to be a bit better then skulks [02:11] <fwd-eggmac> well we'll see how it plays<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I hope it's not a problem that I post a small quote from Flayra from our pt channel... <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->
That sounds about right. Well, we'll see how it plays out. After all, if it's bad, the NS team could just release a patch ( just like 1.0 was made into 1.04 very shortly)
i have a suggestion, why don't they put another public mode in? the current one for vets and er good people, and another differently balanced one for servers with average players. the server could just change the mode if one side was winning lots.
I think that the counter-balancing factor against aliens, with regard to teamplay, is the lack of a commander. While good alien clans can no doubt coordinate flawlessly, this simply isn't realistic behavior on the pubs. Even given the same level of players on both teams, n00b marines are still going to be more coordinated with someone yelling at them and setting waypoints for them.
Thus, in a base skulk vs. base marine encounter, I really feel that the skulk should have a good shot. Why? Because a solo skulk is <i>supposed</i> to be out scouting/hunting solo, whereas a solo marine is either ignoring his commander/team or has been sent on a very expendable mission.
This balances, as base marines have a far superior force/space ratio than skulks, so the force multiplier of multiple marines far outweighs that of multiple skulks, all other things being equal.
If marines are having trouble in the mid-game, though, then some rebalancing needs to be done with their upgrades. Also, getting bile bombs on gorges at 2 hives has always seemed a touch iffy to me. Oh well, that's what testers are for.
N1ght wrote: <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->thats the single most disgusting statement ive ever seen u come up with, if u think in any way that the level of teamplay on the test servers is anything similar to a regular server, you are absolutely on cloud 9. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->Sorry it bothered you but you should know by not I'm a person who doesn't beat around the bush. While many games on the 2.0 servers are cohesive, there are also a good number that are just plain awful. People refusing to comm, no one wanting to gorge, people quitting when the game seems lost. These are not things one would expect, but it happens. These things would NEVER happen in a scrim, and as such that is my point. I didn't say it to be insulting, I said it to make a point. The 'standard of play' *DOES* vary on the 2.0 servers. To suggest that every game is like a well oiled machine in terms of teamwork is completely inaccurate.
Sinan wrote: <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I can not respect your ignorance of the team work involved in a typical VET game.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->I'd love to cite some examples, but I really don't want to embarass anyone. Sufficient to say, as I mentioned above, not every game on 2.0 servers plays like a well oilded machine. There are MANY games where pepole just aren't with it. This was documented LONG ago in the playtest, and agreed on by many. The only time there is a CONSISTENTLY high standard of play in 2.0 is during a scrim. At other times the games can vary from highly cohesive to over in 5 minutes as everyone left because the game was so sad.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I feel disgusted that you think there will be more teamwork on a public server where players are often unfamiliar with the maps/game and do not spend the 15+ hours a week playing ns that the testers do. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->No, no, no, don't misquote me here please. Here is what I said. "...when playing for 'fun' the level of temawork can vary from highly cohesive to that of a team of NSPlayers. " I stand by that remark. Some games are downright awful, and I some are great. I never said ALL games were one way or another, I said they "CAN VARY" between the two extremes.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->All Savant's 'make the aliens better' posts revolve around his point that on publics the marines will be such an elite team that they will conquer the aliens.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->I never made ANY statement that is even close to that, and I would ask that you please not imply otherwise unles you have quotes to back it up. If you want to criticize my ACTUAL comments, fine. Please don't make up things I never said, it's not polite.
Pege wrote: <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->First off, why are you trying to balance a mod for imaginary "avarage joes" when only thing in the pool you have is high quality "veterans"? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->Actually this is a common misconception. There are two main groups of testers. PTs and VETs. The PTs are mainly your 'average joe'. In terms of skill - so in a group of PTs you'll have people who may play very good, and some that may not play very good at all. In the VET group you have people comprised of clan groups. In almost every case, these people are at the top of their game. These some are the best players in NS, bar none. While there may be some PTs who are highly skilled at playing NS, there are VERY few VETs who are 'mediocre' in skill. They are all pretty solid players. I myself have said on MANY occasions that I consider myself an 'average' player. I'm not as skilled as most vets, and I don't have any problem admitting that. In live there will always be people who are better then oneself, and for me in NS, most of those people are VETs. There is no shame in me admitting that. However, it also gives me the oportunity to look at the game from the perspective of a person who is NOT highly skilled.
Hambone wrote: <i>Changes to Marine vs Skulk battles in 2.0 Beneficial changes to skulk:</i><i>- Marine Bunnyhopping removed</i> All that this did was prevent marines from hopping to a safe distance, it didn't stop them from using it ONCE to get a small distance away and/or do a backwarks hop (while firing no less) and still be able to get the kill. With the marine hotbox as it is, (please don't tell me that all VETs think the marine hitbox is fine because I know differently) the only way this would be significant would be if JUMPING was removed. (NOT a suggestion - just an example)
<i>- Skulk bite radius increased</i> Again, see above. Is an improvement *IF* yor bites connect. Otherwise you can have a bite as wide as an Onos and it doesn't mean jack if that bite won't CONNECT with the marine.
<i>- Skulk base health raised +5</i> <i>- Skulk base armor raised +15</i> An increase of 5 health is not enough to make it take an extra bullet to kill a skulk. The armor increase basically makes it a skulk that takes a couple more bullets to kill, BUT the better LMG model/muzzle flash makes marines far more accurate to compensate.
<i>- Skulk speed increased slightly(without carapace)</i> Not a noticable increase. I read the patch line that noted the increase but it's not something that anyone has actually said they can TELL is different. (aside from 'air' speed that some people said they notice, but I haven't really noticed it)
<i>- Skulk viewpoint is more "widescreen" - can see a wider area than before</i> Again, once you play it for a day, you don't notice it and it really don't provide a significant benefit.
<i>- Skulk bites at the same speed but the model is faster to make it easier(your mouth is closed less often for the same amount of bites)</i> I agree, this was a definate improvement, although I sometimes find it disorienting since it doesn't match the bite like it used to. (IE when the teeth closed you knew you were in thre middle of a bite) So it's sorta half and half for me.
<i>- The skulk model is considerably more disorienting, especially when running next to walls</i> OK, now this is just plain laughable. No offense, but as mediocre a player as I am, it took me all of a day to adjust to the skulks reorienting. The only problem I did have initially was thinking how cool it looked! <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
<i>- Hives now cost 30 res, hive 2 skills(leap) can be obtained very easily</i> What percentage of 'pub' players do you think can pull of a properly timed leap attack? (IE an attack where you leap at a marine and then quickly switch to bite) That's probably one of the hardest things to learn in the game. (ask yourself how often you see LEAP kills and then tell me this is significant)
Let me even add to your list here... (don't say I'm not fairminded in debate <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> ) Couple more things that may make a diference to skulk/marine interaction (although they provide benefits for ALL aliens) -Blood feedback when hitting marines -Sound feedback when hitting marines -Knockback when hitting a marine has been lessened (although not removed entirely)
They are minor increases, but they help a bit. However...
<i>- Marine lmg model blocks slightly less than before(and believe me, its a little bit easier to aim, but it doesnt really affect anything)</i> Sorry, even Flayra would disagree with you here. When we first changed the model/muzzle flash, EVERY SINGLE PT on the server thought that LMG damage had been increased since it was SO much easier to kill skulks. The change to increase skulk health (as a result of this) was one of the FIRST things we did, and Flayra will tell you how EVERYONE (PTs - not VETs since VETs were not part of the test at that point) told him that they felt marines were stronger because of the model/muzzle change alone.
There are other factors that come into play as well. The reduced arms lab costs in the recent patch seem to be absent from your list. They make a significant impact when researched.
You cannot understand how significant the model/muzzle change is in regard to balance. The ability to fire a gun is the essense of an FPS, and if you make firing that gun significantly easier, then you dramatically change game balance.
If the model change was so minor, then why do some servers ban the drawviewmodel exploit? Why do so many people feel it is an exploit? Do YOU feel it is an exploit?
Having that model/muzzle flash DOES make a big difference. Had this change not been made we would NOT be having this discussion. There is no way I would suggest a change in skulk health based on the 1.04 design.
Anyway, we all have our opinions, and my job is to point out potential issues in the game. Whether Flayra wants to act on those concerns is up to him. In the end, HE'S the one who has to be happy with the game, and if a change is made that has a negative impact on the public servers, then he'll have to take the heat for it.
At least no one will be able to blame the PTs (as they have before) in saying that we didn't 'catch' this before release.
Savant, No matter what people say about you, one thing is true above all else. You have become very well known! Weither it be for your views or your actions, Everyone reads your stuff, some people read it to flame you due to a dislike of you, others read it to see what your fighting for. I read your stuff, because I feel that you are one of if not the only Person on the BETA team who truely plays from a PUB P.O.V. The Vets focus on Team/Clan Play, and the PTs are there to focus on Pub play, I find you are the only one who truely stays on your goals! Keep it up and NS 2.0 will surely be a balanced and fun game on Pubs and Clan play!
Also to all of you who love to flame this guy, DO IT IN A PM!
HAMBoneProbably the best CommanderJoin Date: 2003-04-02Member: 15139Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><i>Changes to Marine vs Skulk battles in 2.0 Beneficial changes to skulk:</i><i>- Marine Bunnyhopping removed</i> All that this did was prevent marines from hopping to a safe distance, it didn't stop them from using it ONCE to get a small distance away and/or do a backwarks hop (while firing no less) and still be able to get the kill. With the marine hotbox as it is, (please don't tell me that all VETs think the marine hitbox is fine because I know differently) the only way this would be significant would be if JUMPING was removed. (NOT a suggestion - just an example)<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->I cannot agree with you here, removing bunnyhopping was HUGE, one of the biggest changes in the game for us vets, and possibly the largest change to the skulk vs marine battle IMO.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><i>- Skulk bite radius increased</i> Again, see above. Is an improvement *IF* yor bites connect. Otherwise you can have a bite as wide as an Onos and it doesn't mean jack if that bite won't CONNECT with the marine.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->What? There may be some hitbox issues but most bites connect just about every time for me(you have to jump right now but that'll be fixed)
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><i>- Skulk base health raised +5</i> <i>- Skulk base armor raised +15</i> An increase of 5 health is not enough to make it take an extra bullet to kill a skulk. The armor increase basically makes it a skulk that takes a couple more bullets to kill, BUT the better LMG model/muzzle flash makes marines far more accurate to compensate.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->I disagree and have a different viewpoint on the muzzle flash(it makes little or no difference at all).
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><i>- Skulk viewpoint is more "widescreen" - can see a wider area than before</i> Again, once you play it for a day, you don't notice it and it really don't provide a significant benefit. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->Uhh.. of course you get used to it and take it for granted, but that doesnt mean its not there, it doesnt mean you dont have a wider view than you did in 1.04
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><i>- The skulk model is considerably more disorienting, especially when running next to walls</i> OK, now this is just plain laughable. No offense, but as mediocre a player as I am, it took me all of a day to adjust to the skulks reorienting. The only problem I did have initially was thinking how cool it looked! <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->Maybe for someone who isnt very good at skulk this would be the case, but there are skulks who can bunnyhop really fast and the model spins midair and it can be hard(at least for someone who comms 20 games for every one i'm marine, not that i'm that terrible of a marine). Have a skulk bunnyhop around you and see how well you can track him in 2.0, go back to 1.04 and do the same test, i think you'll be surprised.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><i>- Hives now cost 30 res, hive 2 skills(leap) can be obtained very easily</i> What percentage of 'pub' players do you think can pull of a properly timed leap attack? (IE an attack where you leap at a marine and then quickly switch to bite) That's probably one of the hardest things to learn in the game. (ask yourself how often you see LEAP kills and then tell me this is significant)<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->Huh? I think just about everyone can leap at someone, they dont have to get a leap kill, they dont even have to hit them, they just need to use it to get right up next to them from a far distance and bite them. Leap does like 10 damage so obviously leap kills are rare. And leaping into someone is really simple.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><i>- Marine lmg model blocks slightly less than before(and believe me, its a little bit easier to aim, but it doesnt really affect anything)</i> Sorry, even Flayra would disagree with you here. When we first changed the model/muzzle flash, EVERY SINGLE PT on the server thought that LMG damage had been increased since it was SO much easier to kill skulks. The change to increase skulk health (as a result of this) was one of the FIRST things we did, and Flayra will tell you how EVERYONE (PTs - not VETs since VETs were not part of the test at that point) told him that they felt marines were stronger because of the model/muzzle change alone.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->Well you called my skulk model thing laughable and I believe this to be the same. The lmg model was moved slightly down, and the muzzle flash was made to be slightly less. I'm sure its possible but I really cant imagine someone who couldnt handle the 1.04 muzzle flash after a few days of playing. So now its slightly less obtrusive but not even remotely close to as great as you make it out to be.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->If the model change was so minor, then why do some servers ban the drawviewmodel exploit? Why do so many people feel it is an exploit? Do YOU feel it is an exploit? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->Personally I thought it was much more abusive as skulk than as marine - but yeah, its abusive as marine. Even still, youre comparing 0 blocking at all to like 5-10% less blocking in 2.0
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->There are other factors that come into play as well. The reduced arms lab costs in the recent patch seem to be absent from your list. They make a significant impact when researched. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Good point, you are correct.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->At least no one will be able to blame the PTs (as they have before) in saying that we didn't 'catch' this before release.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->Why are you going out of your way to try and instigate some kind of argument between vets and PTs when you know there's already tension between the groups? Do you speak for all of the PTs? Do you speak for any of the PTs? Every PT i've seen respond in this discussion seems to disagree with you.
I guess as long as you realize that youre arguing that a slightly reduced model is still more powerful then a myriad of changes in the skulk's favor then I don't really have much else to say(it isn't, skulks are still owning like never before with no upgrades).
Stop being so dramatic, stop trying to instigate arguments, stop treating it like its the end of the world. Its not that big of a deal and just about everyone agrees this is the most balanced version in a long time. If you feel like this wasnt the cause of aliens dominance before(it was), and you think you can come up with some suggestions that arent stupid and dont involve major changes that you know flayra wont do, then by all means post them. When we decided we should try skulks with 10 less hp, we all thought it was a good idea, flayra thought it was a good idea, and looking at recent pub play it has clearly evened the scales. If you think you can come up with something better then go ahead, but until then I think you've made your point.
Sounds like Savant's been in a debate team. They always tend to dramatize everything...that's why I left debate <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> Anyway, Savant has some good points, but I really think he's emphasizing the wrong ones. Introducing controversial comments just to make a point won't help either - that's a debating no-no.
coil has compiled Savant's and the vets arguments into a reasonable thread. Besides, I like coil's writing style better - you don't see him emphasizing any word <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--Savant+--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Savant)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->- Skulk speed increased slightly(without carapace) Not a noticable increase. I read the patch line that noted the increase but it's not something that anyone has actually said they can TELL is different. (aside from 'air' speed that some people said they notice, but I haven't really noticed it)<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You must be joking, perhaps you should play 1.04 as a skulk and you will notice how much faster the skulks are in 2.0
HAMBONE its no use, Savant is the ultimate broken record, he just repeats the original point on and on and on... Just finished 3 hours of playing as marine (not by choice but teamstacked aliens <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> The teamwork was as usual top-notch, everyone was on voicecomms and the marines moved out in squads efficiently taking down alien res and guarding hives. We still lost. An outside opinion might question the balance, maybe say 'well the aliens might just be a bit better then the marines' Savant would say 'well the marines didn't use teamplay, I know lets raise the Skulk health EVEN MORE'. What a bloody great idea.
That said 2.0x does seem a lot more balanced with the slightly reduced skulk health, that part of the game feels smooth. The game usually gets a little unbalanced at second hive point.
Marines who play in a team should of course always better than those who don't, and they are and always will be. The problem is that what you are suggesting is to make it effectively impossible for marines to be successful on their own, thus meaning they can't win unless they're always working together. Sounds great in concept, but it will result in an incredible marine slaughter in pubs, even worse than already takes place in 1.04. Aliens have the upper hand in 1.04 pub games, simply because marines don't usually work together well enough, and you're suggesting it should be made worse with 2.0?
You mentioned that pubbers aren't all stupid because they figured out the JP/HMG rush... Of course they aren't. If you think pub players are less skilled as a whole then you've clearly been playing in secluded beta games for far too long. Some of the players on pub games are extremely good, and the majority of them at least know what they're doing; I've personally played with a good deal of the veterans on plain old pub servers. The problem is that when you take a randomly assorted team(even on the offchance that everyone on it is very good), they are not going to work together very well, for the same reason that it happens on non-scrim 2.0 games.
You want to know why the JP/HMG rush has been adapted as the strategy to beat on pub games? I'll tell you why; because it does not require teamwork. One skilled player can go into a hive and take it out all by themselves, or get a friend or two to go in with them. But against a good alien team using JP/HMG on a hive is not the most powerful tactic. The infamous HA/HMG/Welder train is easily the most powerful tactic on a 1.04 game, moreso by far than JP/HMG. But when the comm sends out a group of fully suited HAs to push on a hive, it fails surprisingly often because the HAs just don't put the effort into working together. I've lost count of the number of HA trains that have failed miserably because everyone in them is more interested in shooting stuff than occasionally welding their teammates. That's why JP/HMG is the popular tactic among pub marine teams; it's extremely effective, and it requires little to no teamwork or coordination on the part of the participants.
Marines who know how to work together should accomplish much more than a pub team. Same with Aliens. The problem is that neither team will ever be exceptionally well coordinated in your average pub game, and there just isn't anything that can be done about that. NS can't be called balanced until a poorly organized marine team is on par with a poorly organized alien team.
There's one reason that non-scrim games turn out this way, and I'll tell you what it is: people join pub servers just for a game or two, for some quick fun. There's nothing wrong with that, but the result is that nobody wants to sit around for a couple minutes trying to coordinate something with the rest of their team when they can just shoot stuff. There is no importance in actually winning the game on a pub server, so it's often treated as a secondary objective to just having fun. If you force marines to work as a coherent team for the entire game, it will no longer be fun for most pub players. Rather than resort to such boring tactics, many marines will simply try to accomplish something on their own and will inevitably lose almost every game to the aliens, who are designed to be able to have fun ramboing and still win the game.
It's evident that you hold some contempt for the ideals of the Veterans on the 2.0 servers, but I've got news for you: Vets in non-scrim games are the closest thing you have to pub players. Obviously the majority of pub players are not as skilled, and thus real teamwork is going to be even less common in these games when 2.0 goes public. If the vets are having trouble winning non-scrim marine games, what does that say about the future of pub servers?
good points zek its nice to hear it from a pubber rather than someone who claims to have pubber's interests at heart like a dodgy politician. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
I should add that I think it's stupid to treat Vets and PTs like some sort of clashing political parties... It's ridiculous to assume that vets only have the interest of clan matches at heart. They're just people who happen to be in high profile clans and are very good at the game. I imagine half the reason they were included in the test was to present a more "average Joe" point of view, which is what they've done. I've already told you that I've played with a number of them on pub servers and I'll take your word for it that the atmosphere on casual 2.0 servers is a lot like that of a pub, as I'd imagine it would be at least as long as the teams aren't highly stacked.
Allowing marines to have an enjoyable game without having to work as a team the entire time benefits not just pub players who aren't good enough to get into a clan; it allows everyone who isn't in an organized clan match at the time to have a more enjoyable time with the game. You mentioned that even with all the skilled vets on 2.0 servers, they don't always work on a cohesive team; that's EXACTLY what happens on pub servers. Please don't attempt to enforce a clan match playing style on the people on pub servers, because it just isn't going to happen, regardless of how skilled they are.
You seem to be making the assumption, correct me if I'm wrong, that pub games have good teamplay but are just devoid in high levels of skill; it's completely the opposite. I'm sorry, but I just can't take your opinions that seriously until you actually spend some time playing on a 1.04 pub server again. I'll be interested to see what your opinion is once 2.0 has been out for a little while.
ChurchMeatshield grunt-fodder // Has pre-ordered NS2Join Date: 2002-12-31Member: 11646Members, Constellation
Let's all wait until 2.0 comes out. Since it's a lot easier for Flay to update NS now (or so I hear) let's just wait until the release, and let the ACTUAL pubbers (and non-veteran status clanners like me <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> ) test it out for a few months. If the game really IS that broken, you can bet the pubbers will let Flay know about it!
/me shudders, imagining the amount of balance posts a few days after 2.0 release. If there are this many balance posts even BEFORE release, imagine the number of posts after?
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I cannot agree with you here, removing bunnyhopping was HUGE, one of the biggest changes in the game for us vets, and possibly the largest change to the skulk vs marine battle IMO.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->Again, you speak from a VET perspective, I don't. Most pubbers (not all, but most) don't bunny-hop as marine when in battles. (not hop around when attacked, but BUNNY hop away when attacked) So bunny-hop will only have a limited impact on the public servers. Will it have more of an impact in clan matches, I would think so. <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->What? There may be some hitbox issues but most bites connect just about every time for me(you have to jump right now but that'll be fixed)<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->OK, absolutely no offense meant here but when I read this I had to laugh. Please... 'There are some hiitbox issues BUT bites connect'? If bites connected all the time that would mean there weren't any hitbox issues, right? Why not just admit that the hitboxes have issues without trying to make it out like they work perfectly. As you saw in my response to you I am honest enough to admit points when they are not in my favour, why can't you do the same? There ARE hitbox issues, and if a person MUST jump in order to connect properly, then I consider that a severe issue. When it gets fixed, then we can look at skulk/marine balance and see if it is as insignificant an issue as you try and make it out to be. That's like me saying, (ficticious example) "Well you can fire your LMG at the skulk and the bullets will hit most of the time, but there is no problem with the skulk hitbox even though the bullets pass right through them unless you jump when you shoot." Com'on, be fair please. There either IS an issue with the hitbox or there isn't. Which is it please? <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Leap does like 10 damage so obviously leap kills are rare. And leaping into someone is really simple.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->Actually leap only does 4 damage, (pretty uber for a 2nd tier weapon <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo--> ) but it will do damage continually as long as you are in contact with the marine and NOT touching a surface. (like spores, as long as the skulk is in contact damage is dealt) Of course this is generally impossible to achieve to the extent to get a kill. <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Well you called my skulk model thing laughable and I believe this to be the same. The lmg model was moved slightly down, and the muzzle flash was made to be slightly less. I'm sure its possible but I really cant imagine someone who couldnt handle the 1.04 muzzle flash after a few days of playing. So now its slightly less obtrusive but not even remotely close to as great as you make it out to be.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I wasn't exaggerating, when we tested the new model/muzzle marine kills jumped substancially. No disrespect intended but I was there, you were not. Killing skulks became a breeze. Ask any PT who was around for that test what happened. Ask them if people felt marine damage had been increased because it was that noticable in the ease of killing skulks. Don't take my word for it, ask around. <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Why are you going out of your way to try and instigate some kind of argument between vets and PTs when you know there's already tension between the groups? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I'm not trying to do anything of the sort. My comment was meant to point out that when a game goes public, peple WILL blame the PTs if something goes wrong. (who can forget the lambasting PTs got for not catching some of the bugs that plagued 1.0* (like the abuse where alien became marine etc) So all I am saying is that if things end up being as I predict, then I don't want people blaming PTs for problems with the game on public servers when attempts have been made to correct them now. <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->we decided we should try skulks with 10 less hp, ... and looking at recent pub play it has clearly evened the scales.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->Yes and no. Yes it may have improved balance, but at a cost. I'm not going to bothing repeating what I have said above, but sufficient to say skulks are not as fun to play now as they were before.
Balanced game? Yes. Fun skulks? No.
That's where our opinions differ. Until you acknowledge that we'll never see eye to eye.
<!--QuoteBegin--sinan+Jul 21 2003, 05:15 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (sinan @ Jul 21 2003, 05:15 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> HAMBONE its no use, Savant is the ultimate broken record, he just repeats the original point on and on and on... Just finished 3 hours of playing as marine (not by choice but teamstacked aliens <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> The teamwork was as usual top-notch, everyone was on voicecomms and the marines moved out in squads efficiently taking down alien res and guarding hives. We still lost. An outside opinion might question the balance, maybe say 'well the aliens might just be a bit better then the marines' Savant would say 'well the marines didn't use teamplay, I know lets raise the Skulk health EVEN MORE'. What a bloody great idea.
That said 2.0x does seem a lot more balanced with the slightly reduced skulk health, that part of the game feels smooth. The game usually gets a little unbalanced at second hive point. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> My god, you are a terribly close-minded person.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Aliens have the upper hand in 1.04 pub games, simply because marines don't usually work together well enough, and you're suggesting it should be made worse with 2.0? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Wow. In 1.04, marines win around <b>at least</b> 60% of the games I play in. Seriously, all it takes is one JP/HMG. All it takes is one abusive strat. And if the new abusive strat is to have rambo marines who kill lots of skulks and rake in the res, then guess what will happen on pubs?
All pubbers do is look for the path of least resistance. They won't focus on strategy unless they have to.
Step 1 - Wait for 2.0 release. Step 2 - Get lots of public players in the game. Step 3 - Observe the game's success/failure. Step 4 - Revise game as needed. (repeat steps 2 through 4 if necessary)
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Again, you speak from a VET perspective, I don't. Most pubbers (not all, but most) don't bunny-hop as marine when in battles. (not hop around when attacked, but BUNNY hop away when attacked) So bunny-hop will only have a limited impact on the public servers. Will it have more of an impact in clan matches, I would think so.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> This makes me wonder if you really don't understand what a big difference "hopping around" made in 1.04. Yes, most pub players don't technically bunnyhop. Most pub players do jump nonstop when a skulk gets close to them, and that in itself makes it considerably harder to kill them. I thought everyone knew that... The removal of this ability is a considerable boon to skulks.
Something I forgot to comment on last time: <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->What percentage of 'pub' players do you think can pull of a properly timed leap attack? (IE an attack where you leap at a marine and then quickly switch to bite) That's probably one of the hardest things to learn in the game. (ask yourself how often you see LEAP kills and then tell me this is significant)<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> There is nothing hard about a properly timed leap attack. Leap, press 1, and bite. Anyone who knows how to disable the confirmation click on weapon changing can do this with ease, and even if they don't it's still pretty easy. Even if they can't pull off a leap combo they can still use it to land next to a marine and then start biting rather than just barreling straight towards them and eating bullets. I actually do see a reasonable number of leapkills where I play(from people who know to hold Control), but I won't pretend that's a tide-turning method. All the same, it's just insane to use the low numbers of leap kills to try to pass the ability off as useless, and you know it; Leap makes a huge difference in skulk play by effectively eliminating the marine range advantage. It is a utility skill, and its real use is to close the distance with marines. You are greatly exaggerating the perceived incompetence of pub players, whether you realize it or not, and I wish you would stop pretending to have such an indepth understanding of pub games.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Yes and no. Yes it may have improved balance, but at a cost. I'm not going to bothing repeating what I have said above, but sufficient to say skulks are not as fun to play now as they were before.
Balanced game? Yes. Fun skulks? No.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I admit that I cannot truly argue this point since I'm not in the beta, but I think you need to take the fun of both teams into consideration. Unbalanced games ARE NOT FUN, especially for the losing side(marines in this case). I'm sure it's very fun for a skulk when you can run right up and kill a marine without having to worry about playing intelligently and trying to ambush, but how fun is it to be killed that way? I assume you've read the chatlog in this thread where Flayra says that he believes skulks should be weaker than marines(which deflates a large portion of your argument and I noticed you conveniently ignored). Marines deserve to have fun playing this game too, and in order to do that they need to be able to defend themselves without necessarily having the numbers advantage.
(got half way through typing *delete*) bah screw it. ive tried enough. YES you can get considerable kills with leap. leap is just as effective as bite. Ive tested leap with fps as low as 60 and i still pwn with leap. I mean come on guys, i mean come on. leap is very very effective. in 1.04 leap was a pro skulks best friend. the only thing that worried me about leaps effectiveness in 2.0 was the air speed change, BUT now that it was reverted back to normal in 2.0x LEAP IS KING AGIAN!!! BWAHAHAHAHA AHHAHAHA!!!!! BOW TO ME!!!.
/rant
EDIT: o by the way, ive never used the leap +bite combo. *sit and stares at his flame thrower* man o man .
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Wow. In 1.04, marines win around at least 60% of the games I play in.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Unless you're talking about matches or scrims or play often in very large servers, please don't spread false information. K thnx
Comments
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->If this is the case then can you explain why every bloody game on the vets servers goes to an alien win. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->Com'on, that's inaccurate and you know it. Most VETs have already acknowledged that the ratio was more like 60:40, so please spare us the inaccurate generalizations.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Yes the public games will have half the teamwork which goes on in vets games. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->Sprry, I disagree. While the level of teamwork in a SCRIM will be greatly above that on a pub, my observations of VET gameplay on the open test servers has NOT seen any great level of teamwork. Sure the VET are all great INDIVIDUAL players, and they are great players as a team when in a SCRIM, but when playing for 'fun' the level of temawork can vary from highly cohesive to that of a team of NSPlayers.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->now you're going to repeat your original point without taking into note the 15+ posts in this thread all saying, 'yeah ok savant nice idea but no one else agrees with you'.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->No, I'm going to reiterate my postition WHILE taking into the 15+ posts of people who agree with me. You have your opinion, that's fine. It doesn't make you right or wrong.
Zek wrote:
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Anyway, Savant, you say you're interested in keeping the game balanced for the average player, yes? And in order to do that you want to make it so marines lose every game unless they act flawlessly as a team? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You're reading too much of the rhetoric. Try reading MY posts for a change and not those replying to me.
I have never said that for marines to win they HAVE to play a flawless game, but I HAVE said that marines SHOULD be playing as a team to be 'successful'. The level of teamplay will vary their success. This isn't anything new, this is how Flayra DESIGNED THE GAME! Marines were designed to play as a team. If people don't accept it and change how they play to take this into account, then they will not be as successful as those who do.
Answer me this. On the pubs you have seen the dreaded JP/HMG rush done MANY a time right? OK, now one could argue that it is quite a feat for 'pub' marines to group up in order to pull off such a rush. However, the pubbers learned that if they do *X* strat as a group then they will be rewarded with *Y* win. Based on your assessment marines shouldn't be winning on pubs NOW since they never have teamwork, but they DO win often. Why? ...because they can exploit a game imbalance to their advantage. The fact that they are 'pubbers' does NOT make them idiots. If they know they can win in a certain way, most of them will do it.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Is it your opinion that aliens deserve to win 90% of the pub games simply because the marines are not usually capable of being that organized?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->No, it's my opinion that as the level of marine teamplay drops their potential chance to win should drop in proportion to the increasing level of alien teamwork. Does that equal 90%? No. Where you are pulling out these numbers from is beyond me. Please, next time QUOTE me before suggesting that I hold a certain opinion when I haven't said as such.
As eggmac has noted, I too am frustrated that people have taken 'sides'. This isn't about sides this is about NS. I one ONE and only ONE concern in my role as PT for NS, and that is to help make this mod the best it can be. I've seen mods with great potential (like FA) crash and burn, and I don't want to see that happen here. So I would ask people who are getting hot and bothered by this thread to take a step back for a moment. Cease the attacks against others and remember why we're here. Yes we all have our opinions, but let's not let opinions make our behavior towards others denigrate. Let's be nice please.
I'm going to try and wrap up this thread in order to try and minimize further frustration for all. In the end I look at it this way...
-If the game is balanced (as it is now) so that the vast majority of VETs are happy with it, then it is NOT balanced properly. If you balance the game strictly for the clanners than the public will sufer.
-If the game is balanced (as it was) so that the majority of PTs were happy with it, then it is NOT balanced properly. If you balance the game strictly for the public then the clans will suffer.
The REAL balance will be achieved somewhere in the middle, when NEITHER side is completely happy with it, but when both sides can still have a good fun game nevertheless. Isn't that what we all want?
Regards,
Savant
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
thats the single most disgusting statement ive ever seen u come up with, if u think in any way that the level of teamplay on the test servers is anything similar to a regular server, you are absolutely on cloud 9.
I can not respect your ignorance of the team work involved in a typical VET game. For you guys who aren't play testing I'll outline two typical games, one of them you will be familiar with:
1.04 game played last nite on ns_nothing as marines:
Game started, I waited in base whilst some comm hopped in the chair and said 'they have via lets relocate cargo'. Ok so off i went with 3 other marines to cargo, the other 2 marines decided they'd go to port engine for no reason so buggered off. We got to cargo, managed to kill 2 skulks on the way and lose a marine. Two of us built up cargo and the comm started mining the new base and getting up res. Out of the 7 marines only 3 of them were actively listening to the comm, the other 4 were generally buggering about being useless. I was not frustrated as this is what I'd expect, the usual ratio on a public game is about 50:50 for skilled players who know what they're doing and newbies.
Anyway we managed to tech to jp hmg, only 3 of us hit viaduct which was well OCd and we died. Silo came up game over.
Thats a typical public game, I've played hundreds of them it went the way I expected, sometimes there are more skilled marines and the jp/hmg goes faster and we win. Sometimes there are more newbies and the tech never happens.
Now a typical ns 2.0 game.
Map starts on veil and pandas|jojoshua gets in the chair. Immediately 3 marines run off to the first res he tells us to build whilst the other two build up the base defences. Everyone is on voicecommes. Jojosh hotgroups 2 squads, and we have an offence squad of 3 marines and a defence squad of 2. I'm in the defence squad and under his orders go to the res towers furthest from their hive and manage to get two up with my buddy, and electrified. The offence squad hit the aliens starting res in a beautiful hail of LMG and take it down. They then pull back in a lovely coordinated movement, everyone covering each other and take down the alien res tower outside the hive. At this point a lerk starts sporing them, and 3 skulks come bounding out and they are cut down.
With 3 res towers and our 3 offence marines back in base the comm sends them to the empty alien hive. Our 3 men quickly lock it down, gaining us another res tower and putting up sentries. Meanwhile our 2 defence marines have been keeping the base and res safe, and comm has been teching to hmg and phasegates. We get a portal opened between our hive and spawn and our 3 men come back for hmgs. They make a rush on the aliens building hive but the entire alien team teleports in via MCs and the 3 hmgs have no chance against 2 fades, 2 gorges and 2 skulks. Jojosh quickly techs to HA as we know they will have 2 hives. The aliens reach 2 hives and one of the skulks goes onos. Even AFTER taking down their starting res and first res tower its still easy to get an onos if that alien hasn't evolved yet. The onos tackles 3 HA HMG/GL with his stomp and whilst they're tied up the 2 gorges bile the hell out of our locked down hive.
Typical, easy, alien win.
The level of teamwork for marines in that game was common to what I expect on test servers, and simply outstanding compared to a 1.04 public. I feel disgusted that you think there will be more teamwork on a public server where players are often unfamiliar with the maps/game and do not spend the 15+ hours a week playing ns that the testers do. This is not an insult to the public community, I might be in a clan but I spend 90% of my time practicing and enjoying games on public servers. My point is very simple, the level of teamwork achieved when you bring together some of the best marines ns has, is outstanding. It is idiotic to assume that this level of teamwork is less than will be seen on public servers.
All Savant's 'make the aliens better' posts revolve around his point that on publics the marines will be such an elite team that they will conquer the aliens. Please don't believe that the level of teamwork you will see on public servers will approach that on the test servers in any more then 5% of the games you play.
Of course not, because only certain people were allowed to play. Not everyone was.
The problem is that if one team can dominate completely over the other in any way it will make the game boring for the majority of players which is his point. I am so far not convinced this is a problem yet and would rather see NS 2.0 for myself now without any further fudging.
Isn't that the point of all the testers?
First off, why are you trying to balance a mod for imaginary "avarage joes" when only thing in the pool you have is high quality "veterans"? I'd think devs would have searched out more suckier players (plenty of those around!) if they believed that public games didn't go towards clan games in the long run. I've played plenty enough mods and games to notice that public games become more and more like clan games (like I said about 2 pages ago) in the long run so it's better to balance for clans ("ideal" balance) than imaginary people you don't even play with. You balance for the people you play with, let devs choose who you play with.
Second, if you think "veterans" and the best of the best don't teamwork, maybe NS just doesn't support teamwork to the level you wan't? Maybe you'd like to see marines go in a squad of 4-5 men when team has 6, but veterans can clearly see that this is not practical or realistic (considering size of the map, aliens' high mobility etc.). I don't even expect 2.0 to give perfect teamwork, because I don't really see there are enough tools. You would need to add more special features to support large-scale teamwork like wave-spawning, smaller maps, radius-bonus for teams and yadda yadda... You can't just go making marines suck alone against skulks and then expect marine groups to be as strong as skulk groups by directly messing with health.
Not much more to say on my behalf.
Examine these changes(again, since noone seems to have responded) and you decide for yourself if skulking is going to be too hard:
<b>Changes to Marine vs Skulk battles in 2.0</b>
Beneficial changes to skulk:
- Marine Bunnyhopping removed
- Skulk bite radius increased
- Skulk base health raised +5
- Skulk base armor raised +15
- Skulk speed increased slightly(without carapace)
- Skulk viewpoint is more "widescreen" - can see a wider area than before
- Skulk bites at the same speed but the model is faster to make it easier(your mouth is closed less often for the same amount of bites)
- The skulk model is considerably more disorienting, especially when running next to walls
- Hives now cost 30 res, hive 2 skills(leap) can be obtained very easily
The ONLY beneficial change to marines:
- Marine lmg model blocks slightly less than before(and believe me, its a little bit easier to aim, but it doesnt really affect anything)
Now how can you read that and still believe what savant is saying? Even in the current version skulks with no upgrades are consistently owning marines. Skulks are still too strong in my opinion.
Regards decreasing the skulk health further, I'd like to play more 2.0x games to test that. All my point was on this thread is to prevent the rediculous 'powering-up' of the skulk again.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->[02:09] <fwd-eggmac> why has skulk hp been decreased again?
[02:09] <fwd-eggmac> just wondering
[02:10] <fwd-eggmac> skulk vs marine was absolutely even
[02:10] <Flayra|Dinner> Seemed out of whack, and we had a big discussion about it last night
[02:10] <Flayra|Dinner> Yeah, they were even, but I think that's not desired
[02:10] <Flayra|Dinner> Basically, given that gorges are at least as good as skulks, and the fact that marines have a dedicated comm, and given that marines move slower then skulks, marines have to be a bit better then skulks
[02:11] <fwd-eggmac> well we'll see how it plays<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I hope it's not a problem that I post a small quote from Flayra from our pt channel... <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->
Thus, in a base skulk vs. base marine encounter, I really feel that the skulk should have a good shot. Why? Because a solo skulk is <i>supposed</i> to be out scouting/hunting solo, whereas a solo marine is either ignoring his commander/team or has been sent on a very expendable mission.
This balances, as base marines have a far superior force/space ratio than skulks, so the force multiplier of multiple marines far outweighs that of multiple skulks, all other things being equal.
If marines are having trouble in the mid-game, though, then some rebalancing needs to be done with their upgrades. Also, getting bile bombs on gorges at 2 hives has always seemed a touch iffy to me. Oh well, that's what testers are for.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->thats the single most disgusting statement ive ever seen u come up with, if u think in any way that the level of teamplay on the test servers is anything similar to a regular server, you are absolutely on cloud 9. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->Sorry it bothered you but you should know by not I'm a person who doesn't beat around the bush. While many games on the 2.0 servers are cohesive, there are also a good number that are just plain awful. People refusing to comm, no one wanting to gorge, people quitting when the game seems lost. These are not things one would expect, but it happens. These things would NEVER happen in a scrim, and as such that is my point. I didn't say it to be insulting, I said it to make a point. The 'standard of play' *DOES* vary on the 2.0 servers. To suggest that every game is like a well oiled machine in terms of teamwork is completely inaccurate.
Sinan wrote:
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I can not respect your ignorance of the team work involved in a typical VET game.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->I'd love to cite some examples, but I really don't want to embarass anyone. Sufficient to say, as I mentioned above, not every game on 2.0 servers plays like a well oilded machine. There are MANY games where pepole just aren't with it. This was documented LONG ago in the playtest, and agreed on by many. The only time there is a CONSISTENTLY high standard of play in 2.0 is during a scrim. At other times the games can vary from highly cohesive to over in 5 minutes as everyone left because the game was so sad.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I feel disgusted that you think there will be more teamwork on a public server where players are often unfamiliar with the maps/game and do not spend the 15+ hours a week playing ns that the testers do. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->No, no, no, don't misquote me here please. Here is what I said. "...when playing for 'fun' the level of temawork can vary from highly cohesive to that of a team of NSPlayers. " I stand by that remark. Some games are downright awful, and I some are great. I never said ALL games were one way or another, I said they "CAN VARY" between the two extremes.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->All Savant's 'make the aliens better' posts revolve around his point that on publics the marines will be such an elite team that they will conquer the aliens.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->I never made ANY statement that is even close to that, and I would ask that you please not imply otherwise unles you have quotes to back it up. If you want to criticize my ACTUAL comments, fine. Please don't make up things I never said, it's not polite.
Pege wrote:
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->First off, why are you trying to balance a mod for imaginary "avarage joes" when only thing in the pool you have is high quality "veterans"? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->Actually this is a common misconception. There are two main groups of testers. PTs and VETs. The PTs are mainly your 'average joe'. In terms of skill - so in a group of PTs you'll have people who may play very good, and some that may not play very good at all. In the VET group you have people comprised of clan groups. In almost every case, these people are at the top of their game. These some are the best players in NS, bar none. While there may be some PTs who are highly skilled at playing NS, there are VERY few VETs who are 'mediocre' in skill. They are all pretty solid players. I myself have said on MANY occasions that I consider myself an 'average' player. I'm not as skilled as most vets, and I don't have any problem admitting that. In live there will always be people who are better then oneself, and for me in NS, most of those people are VETs. There is no shame in me admitting that. However, it also gives me the oportunity to look at the game from the perspective of a person who is NOT highly skilled.
Hambone wrote:
<i>Changes to Marine vs Skulk battles in 2.0
Beneficial changes to skulk:</i><i>- Marine Bunnyhopping removed</i>
All that this did was prevent marines from hopping to a safe distance, it didn't stop them from using it ONCE to get a small distance away and/or do a backwarks hop (while firing no less) and still be able to get the kill. With the marine hotbox as it is, (please don't tell me that all VETs think the marine hitbox is fine because I know differently) the only way this would be significant would be if JUMPING was removed. (NOT a suggestion - just an example)
<i>- Skulk bite radius increased</i>
Again, see above. Is an improvement *IF* yor bites connect. Otherwise you can have a bite as wide as an Onos and it doesn't mean jack if that bite won't CONNECT with the marine.
<i>- Skulk base health raised +5</i>
<i>- Skulk base armor raised +15</i>
An increase of 5 health is not enough to make it take an extra bullet to kill a skulk. The armor increase basically makes it a skulk that takes a couple more bullets to kill, BUT the better LMG model/muzzle flash makes marines far more accurate to compensate.
<i>- Skulk speed increased slightly(without carapace)</i>
Not a noticable increase. I read the patch line that noted the increase but it's not something that anyone has actually said they can TELL is different. (aside from 'air' speed that some people said they notice, but I haven't really noticed it)
<i>- Skulk viewpoint is more "widescreen" - can see a wider area than before</i>
Again, once you play it for a day, you don't notice it and it really don't provide a significant benefit.
<i>- Skulk bites at the same speed but the model is faster to make it easier(your mouth is closed less often for the same amount of bites)</i>
I agree, this was a definate improvement, although I sometimes find it disorienting since it doesn't match the bite like it used to. (IE when the teeth closed you knew you were in thre middle of a bite) So it's sorta half and half for me.
<i>- The skulk model is considerably more disorienting, especially when running next to walls</i>
OK, now this is just plain laughable. No offense, but as mediocre a player as I am, it took me all of a day to adjust to the skulks reorienting. The only problem I did have initially was thinking how cool it looked! <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
<i>- Hives now cost 30 res, hive 2 skills(leap) can be obtained very easily</i>
What percentage of 'pub' players do you think can pull of a properly timed leap attack? (IE an attack where you leap at a marine and then quickly switch to bite) That's probably one of the hardest things to learn in the game. (ask yourself how often you see LEAP kills and then tell me this is significant)
Let me even add to your list here... (don't say I'm not fairminded in debate <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> ) Couple more things that may make a diference to skulk/marine interaction (although they provide benefits for ALL aliens)
-Blood feedback when hitting marines
-Sound feedback when hitting marines
-Knockback when hitting a marine has been lessened (although not removed entirely)
They are minor increases, but they help a bit. However...
<i>- Marine lmg model blocks slightly less than before(and believe me, its a little bit easier to aim, but it doesnt really affect anything)</i>
Sorry, even Flayra would disagree with you here. When we first changed the model/muzzle flash, EVERY SINGLE PT on the server thought that LMG damage had been increased since it was SO much easier to kill skulks. The change to increase skulk health (as a result of this) was one of the FIRST things we did, and Flayra will tell you how EVERYONE (PTs - not VETs since VETs were not part of the test at that point) told him that they felt marines were stronger because of the model/muzzle change alone.
There are other factors that come into play as well. The reduced arms lab costs in the recent patch seem to be absent from your list. They make a significant impact when researched.
You cannot understand how significant the model/muzzle change is in regard to balance. The ability to fire a gun is the essense of an FPS, and if you make firing that gun significantly easier, then you dramatically change game balance.
If the model change was so minor, then why do some servers ban the drawviewmodel exploit? Why do so many people feel it is an exploit? Do YOU feel it is an exploit?
Having that model/muzzle flash DOES make a big difference. Had this change not been made we would NOT be having this discussion. There is no way I would suggest a change in skulk health based on the 1.04 design.
Anyway, we all have our opinions, and my job is to point out potential issues in the game. Whether Flayra wants to act on those concerns is up to him. In the end, HE'S the one who has to be happy with the game, and if a change is made that has a negative impact on the public servers, then he'll have to take the heat for it.
At least no one will be able to blame the PTs (as they have before) in saying that we didn't 'catch' this before release.
Regards,
Savant
No matter what people say about you, one thing is true above all else.
You have become very well known!
Weither it be for your views or your actions, Everyone reads your stuff, some people read it to flame you due to a dislike of you, others read it to see what your fighting for. I read your stuff, because I feel that you are one of if not the only Person on the BETA team who truely plays from a PUB P.O.V. The Vets focus on Team/Clan Play, and the PTs are there to focus on Pub play, I find you are the only one who truely stays on your goals!
Keep it up and NS 2.0 will surely be a balanced and fun game on Pubs and Clan play!
Also to all of you who love to flame this guy, DO IT IN A PM!
Majin <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
Beneficial changes to skulk:</i><i>- Marine Bunnyhopping removed</i>
All that this did was prevent marines from hopping to a safe distance, it didn't stop them from using it ONCE to get a small distance away and/or do a backwarks hop (while firing no less) and still be able to get the kill. With the marine hotbox as it is, (please don't tell me that all VETs think the marine hitbox is fine because I know differently) the only way this would be significant would be if JUMPING was removed. (NOT a suggestion - just an example)<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->I cannot agree with you here, removing bunnyhopping was HUGE, one of the biggest changes in the game for us vets, and possibly the largest change to the skulk vs marine battle IMO.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><i>- Skulk bite radius increased</i>
Again, see above. Is an improvement *IF* yor bites connect. Otherwise you can have a bite as wide as an Onos and it doesn't mean jack if that bite won't CONNECT with the marine.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->What? There may be some hitbox issues but most bites connect just about every time for me(you have to jump right now but that'll be fixed)
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><i>- Skulk base health raised +5</i>
<i>- Skulk base armor raised +15</i>
An increase of 5 health is not enough to make it take an extra bullet to kill a skulk. The armor increase basically makes it a skulk that takes a couple more bullets to kill, BUT the better LMG model/muzzle flash makes marines far more accurate to compensate.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->I disagree and have a different viewpoint on the muzzle flash(it makes little or no difference at all).
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><i>- Skulk viewpoint is more "widescreen" - can see a wider area than before</i>
Again, once you play it for a day, you don't notice it and it really don't provide a significant benefit. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->Uhh.. of course you get used to it and take it for granted, but that doesnt mean its not there, it doesnt mean you dont have a wider view than you did in 1.04
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><i>- The skulk model is considerably more disorienting, especially when running next to walls</i>
OK, now this is just plain laughable. No offense, but as mediocre a player as I am, it took me all of a day to adjust to the skulks reorienting. The only problem I did have initially was thinking how cool it looked! <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->Maybe for someone who isnt very good at skulk this would be the case, but there are skulks who can bunnyhop really fast and the model spins midair and it can be hard(at least for someone who comms 20 games for every one i'm marine, not that i'm that terrible of a marine). Have a skulk bunnyhop around you and see how well you can track him in 2.0, go back to 1.04 and do the same test, i think you'll be surprised.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><i>- Hives now cost 30 res, hive 2 skills(leap) can be obtained very easily</i>
What percentage of 'pub' players do you think can pull of a properly timed leap attack? (IE an attack where you leap at a marine and then quickly switch to bite) That's probably one of the hardest things to learn in the game. (ask yourself how often you see LEAP kills and then tell me this is significant)<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->Huh? I think just about everyone can leap at someone, they dont have to get a leap kill, they dont even have to hit them, they just need to use it to get right up next to them from a far distance and bite them. Leap does like 10 damage so obviously leap kills are rare. And leaping into someone is really simple.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><i>- Marine lmg model blocks slightly less than before(and believe me, its a little bit easier to aim, but it doesnt really affect anything)</i>
Sorry, even Flayra would disagree with you here. When we first changed the model/muzzle flash, EVERY SINGLE PT on the server thought that LMG damage had been increased since it was SO much easier to kill skulks. The change to increase skulk health (as a result of this) was one of the FIRST things we did, and Flayra will tell you how EVERYONE (PTs - not VETs since VETs were not part of the test at that point) told him that they felt marines were stronger because of the model/muzzle change alone.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->Well you called my skulk model thing laughable and I believe this to be the same. The lmg model was moved slightly down, and the muzzle flash was made to be slightly less. I'm sure its possible but I really cant imagine someone who couldnt handle the 1.04 muzzle flash after a few days of playing. So now its slightly less obtrusive but not even remotely close to as great as you make it out to be.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->If the model change was so minor, then why do some servers ban the drawviewmodel exploit? Why do so many people feel it is an exploit? Do YOU feel it is an exploit? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->Personally I thought it was much more abusive as skulk than as marine - but yeah, its abusive as marine. Even still, youre comparing 0 blocking at all to like 5-10% less blocking in 2.0
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->There are other factors that come into play as well. The reduced arms lab costs in the recent patch seem to be absent from your list. They make a significant impact when researched. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Good point, you are correct.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->At least no one will be able to blame the PTs (as they have before) in saying that we didn't 'catch' this before release.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->Why are you going out of your way to try and instigate some kind of argument between vets and PTs when you know there's already tension between the groups? Do you speak for all of the PTs? Do you speak for any of the PTs? Every PT i've seen respond in this discussion seems to disagree with you.
I guess as long as you realize that youre arguing that a slightly reduced model is still more powerful then a myriad of changes in the skulk's favor then I don't really have much else to say(it isn't, skulks are still owning like never before with no upgrades).
Stop being so dramatic, stop trying to instigate arguments, stop treating it like its the end of the world. Its not that big of a deal and just about everyone agrees this is the most balanced version in a long time. If you feel like this wasnt the cause of aliens dominance before(it was), and you think you can come up with some suggestions that arent stupid and dont involve major changes that you know flayra wont do, then by all means post them. When we decided we should try skulks with 10 less hp, we all thought it was a good idea, flayra thought it was a good idea, and looking at recent pub play it has clearly evened the scales. If you think you can come up with something better then go ahead, but until then I think you've made your point.
coil has compiled Savant's and the vets arguments into a reasonable thread. Besides, I like coil's writing style better - you don't see him emphasizing any word <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
They are very easy and fast to do, all you have to do is hit alt+b(once to bring up [ B ], hit it again to bring up [ /B ]) for <b>bold</b>,
alt+i for <i>italic</i>,
and alt+u for <u>underline</u>.
Even the faster of typers can continue to speed along usuing these hotkeys.
Not a noticable increase. I read the patch line that noted the increase but it's not something that anyone has actually said they can TELL is different. (aside from 'air' speed that some people said they notice, but I haven't really noticed it)<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You must be joking, perhaps you should play 1.04 as a skulk and you will notice how much faster the skulks are in 2.0
Just finished 3 hours of playing as marine (not by choice but teamstacked aliens <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> The teamwork was as usual top-notch, everyone was on voicecomms and the marines moved out in squads efficiently taking down alien res and guarding hives. We still lost. An outside opinion might question the balance, maybe say 'well the aliens might just be a bit better then the marines' Savant would say 'well the marines didn't use teamplay, I know lets raise the Skulk health EVEN MORE'. What a bloody great idea.
That said 2.0x does seem a lot more balanced with the slightly reduced skulk health, that part of the game feels smooth. The game usually gets a little unbalanced at second hive point.
You mentioned that pubbers aren't all stupid because they figured out the JP/HMG rush... Of course they aren't. If you think pub players are less skilled as a whole then you've clearly been playing in secluded beta games for far too long. Some of the players on pub games are extremely good, and the majority of them at least know what they're doing; I've personally played with a good deal of the veterans on plain old pub servers. The problem is that when you take a randomly assorted team(even on the offchance that everyone on it is very good), they are not going to work together very well, for the same reason that it happens on non-scrim 2.0 games.
You want to know why the JP/HMG rush has been adapted as the strategy to beat on pub games? I'll tell you why; because it does not require teamwork. One skilled player can go into a hive and take it out all by themselves, or get a friend or two to go in with them. But against a good alien team using JP/HMG on a hive is not the most powerful tactic. The infamous HA/HMG/Welder train is easily the most powerful tactic on a 1.04 game, moreso by far than JP/HMG. But when the comm sends out a group of fully suited HAs to push on a hive, it fails surprisingly often because the HAs just don't put the effort into working together. I've lost count of the number of HA trains that have failed miserably because everyone in them is more interested in shooting stuff than occasionally welding their teammates. That's why JP/HMG is the popular tactic among pub marine teams; it's extremely effective, and it requires little to no teamwork or coordination on the part of the participants.
Marines who know how to work together should accomplish much more than a pub team. Same with Aliens. The problem is that neither team will ever be exceptionally well coordinated in your average pub game, and there just isn't anything that can be done about that. NS can't be called balanced until a poorly organized marine team is on par with a poorly organized alien team.
There's one reason that non-scrim games turn out this way, and I'll tell you what it is: people join pub servers just for a game or two, for some quick fun. There's nothing wrong with that, but the result is that nobody wants to sit around for a couple minutes trying to coordinate something with the rest of their team when they can just shoot stuff. There is no importance in actually winning the game on a pub server, so it's often treated as a secondary objective to just having fun. If you force marines to work as a coherent team for the entire game, it will no longer be fun for most pub players. Rather than resort to such boring tactics, many marines will simply try to accomplish something on their own and will inevitably lose almost every game to the aliens, who are designed to be able to have fun ramboing and still win the game.
It's evident that you hold some contempt for the ideals of the Veterans on the 2.0 servers, but I've got news for you: Vets in non-scrim games are the closest thing you have to pub players. Obviously the majority of pub players are not as skilled, and thus real teamwork is going to be even less common in these games when 2.0 goes public. If the vets are having trouble winning non-scrim marine games, what does that say about the future of pub servers?
its nice to hear it from a pubber rather than someone who claims to have pubber's interests at heart like a dodgy politician.
<!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
Allowing marines to have an enjoyable game without having to work as a team the entire time benefits not just pub players who aren't good enough to get into a clan; it allows everyone who isn't in an organized clan match at the time to have a more enjoyable time with the game. You mentioned that even with all the skilled vets on 2.0 servers, they don't always work on a cohesive team; that's EXACTLY what happens on pub servers. Please don't attempt to enforce a clan match playing style on the people on pub servers, because it just isn't going to happen, regardless of how skilled they are.
You seem to be making the assumption, correct me if I'm wrong, that pub games have good teamplay but are just devoid in high levels of skill; it's completely the opposite. I'm sorry, but I just can't take your opinions that seriously until you actually spend some time playing on a 1.04 pub server again. I'll be interested to see what your opinion is once 2.0 has been out for a little while.
/me shudders, imagining the amount of balance posts a few days after 2.0 release. If there are this many balance posts even BEFORE release, imagine the number of posts after?
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->What? There may be some hitbox issues but most bites connect just about every time for me(you have to jump right now but that'll be fixed)<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->OK, absolutely no offense meant here but when I read this I had to laugh. Please... 'There are some hiitbox issues BUT bites connect'? If bites connected all the time that would mean there weren't any hitbox issues, right? Why not just admit that the hitboxes have issues without trying to make it out like they work perfectly. As you saw in my response to you I am honest enough to admit points when they are not in my favour, why can't you do the same? There ARE hitbox issues, and if a person MUST jump in order to connect properly, then I consider that a severe issue. When it gets fixed, then we can look at skulk/marine balance and see if it is as insignificant an issue as you try and make it out to be. That's like me saying, (ficticious example) "Well you can fire your LMG at the skulk and the bullets will hit most of the time, but there is no problem with the skulk hitbox even though the bullets pass right through them unless you jump when you shoot." Com'on, be fair please. There either IS an issue with the hitbox or there isn't. Which is it please?
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Leap does like 10 damage so obviously leap kills are rare. And leaping into someone is really simple.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->Actually leap only does 4 damage, (pretty uber for a 2nd tier weapon <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo--> ) but it will do damage continually as long as you are in contact with the marine and NOT touching a surface. (like spores, as long as the skulk is in contact damage is dealt) Of course this is generally impossible to achieve to the extent to get a kill.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Well you called my skulk model thing laughable and I believe this to be the same. The lmg model was moved slightly down, and the muzzle flash was made to be slightly less. I'm sure its possible but I really cant imagine someone who couldnt handle the 1.04 muzzle flash after a few days of playing. So now its slightly less obtrusive but not even remotely close to as great as you make it out to be.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I wasn't exaggerating, when we tested the new model/muzzle marine kills jumped substancially. No disrespect intended but I was there, you were not. Killing skulks became a breeze. Ask any PT who was around for that test what happened. Ask them if people felt marine damage had been increased because it was that noticable in the ease of killing skulks. Don't take my word for it, ask around.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Why are you going out of your way to try and instigate some kind of argument between vets and PTs when you know there's already tension between the groups? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm not trying to do anything of the sort. My comment was meant to point out that when a game goes public, peple WILL blame the PTs if something goes wrong. (who can forget the lambasting PTs got for not catching some of the bugs that plagued 1.0* (like the abuse where alien became marine etc) So all I am saying is that if things end up being as I predict, then I don't want people blaming PTs for problems with the game on public servers when attempts have been made to correct them now.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->we decided we should try skulks with 10 less hp, ... and looking at recent pub play it has clearly evened the scales.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->Yes and no. Yes it may have improved balance, but at a cost. I'm not going to bothing repeating what I have said above, but sufficient to say skulks are not as fun to play now as they were before.
Balanced game? Yes. Fun skulks? No.
That's where our opinions differ. Until you acknowledge that we'll never see eye to eye.
Regards,
Savant
Just finished 3 hours of playing as marine (not by choice but teamstacked aliens <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> The teamwork was as usual top-notch, everyone was on voicecomms and the marines moved out in squads efficiently taking down alien res and guarding hives. We still lost. An outside opinion might question the balance, maybe say 'well the aliens might just be a bit better then the marines' Savant would say 'well the marines didn't use teamplay, I know lets raise the Skulk health EVEN MORE'. What a bloody great idea.
That said 2.0x does seem a lot more balanced with the slightly reduced skulk health, that part of the game feels smooth. The game usually gets a little unbalanced at second hive point. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
My god, you are a terribly close-minded person.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Aliens have the upper hand in 1.04 pub games, simply because marines don't usually work together well enough, and you're suggesting it should be made worse with 2.0?
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Wow. In 1.04, marines win around <b>at least</b> 60% of the games I play in. Seriously, all it takes is one JP/HMG. All it takes is one abusive strat. And if the new abusive strat is to have rambo marines who kill lots of skulks and rake in the res, then guess what will happen on pubs?
All pubbers do is look for the path of least resistance. They won't focus on strategy unless they have to.
Step 2 - Get lots of public players in the game.
Step 3 - Observe the game's success/failure.
Step 4 - Revise game as needed.
(repeat steps 2 through 4 if necessary)
This makes me wonder if you really don't understand what a big difference "hopping around" made in 1.04. Yes, most pub players don't technically bunnyhop. Most pub players do jump nonstop when a skulk gets close to them, and that in itself makes it considerably harder to kill them. I thought everyone knew that... The removal of this ability is a considerable boon to skulks.
Something I forgot to comment on last time:
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->What percentage of 'pub' players do you think can pull of a properly timed leap attack? (IE an attack where you leap at a marine and then quickly switch to bite) That's probably one of the hardest things to learn in the game. (ask yourself how often you see LEAP kills and then tell me this is significant)<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There is nothing hard about a properly timed leap attack. Leap, press 1, and bite. Anyone who knows how to disable the confirmation click on weapon changing can do this with ease, and even if they don't it's still pretty easy. Even if they can't pull off a leap combo they can still use it to land next to a marine and then start biting rather than just barreling straight towards them and eating bullets. I actually do see a reasonable number of leapkills where I play(from people who know to hold Control), but I won't pretend that's a tide-turning method. All the same, it's just insane to use the low numbers of leap kills to try to pass the ability off as useless, and you know it; Leap makes a huge difference in skulk play by effectively eliminating the marine range advantage. It is a utility skill, and its real use is to close the distance with marines. You are greatly exaggerating the perceived incompetence of pub players, whether you realize it or not, and I wish you would stop pretending to have such an indepth understanding of pub games.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Yes and no. Yes it may have improved balance, but at a cost. I'm not going to bothing repeating what I have said above, but sufficient to say skulks are not as fun to play now as they were before.
Balanced game? Yes. Fun skulks? No.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I admit that I cannot truly argue this point since I'm not in the beta, but I think you need to take the fun of both teams into consideration. Unbalanced games ARE NOT FUN, especially for the losing side(marines in this case). I'm sure it's very fun for a skulk when you can run right up and kill a marine without having to worry about playing intelligently and trying to ambush, but how fun is it to be killed that way? I assume you've read the chatlog in this thread where Flayra says that he believes skulks should be weaker than marines(which deflates a large portion of your argument and I noticed you conveniently ignored). Marines deserve to have fun playing this game too, and in order to do that they need to be able to defend themselves without necessarily having the numbers advantage.
Are you telling me that leap can not kill? o my.
(got half way through typing *delete*) bah screw it. ive tried enough. YES you can get considerable kills with leap. leap is just as effective as bite. Ive tested leap with fps as low as 60 and i still pwn with leap. I mean come on guys, i mean come on. leap is very very effective. in 1.04 leap was a pro skulks best friend. the only thing that worried me about leaps effectiveness in 2.0 was the air speed change, BUT now that it was reverted back to normal in 2.0x LEAP IS KING AGIAN!!! BWAHAHAHAHA AHHAHAHA!!!!! BOW TO ME!!!.
/rant
EDIT: o by the way, ive never used the leap +bite combo. *sit and stares at his flame thrower* man o man .
Unless you're talking about matches or scrims or play often in very large servers, please don't spread false information. K thnx