Bosnian, the God <i>you</i> have in mind -- a fully transcendent, abstract concept no man can fathom -- is Allah. The Christian God is not like that. Father/Son/Holy Ghost revealed His nature, so that we can understand Him and have a relationship with Him.
This is the fundamental difference between Islam and Christianity.
<!--QuoteBegin--Marine01+Sep 8 2003, 01:41 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Marine01 @ Sep 8 2003, 01:41 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> And Dread, there is more to being a Christian and going to heaven than saying a prayer on your deathbed, better rethink that strategy mate. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Aye, but I was told here in forums that God doesn't need your unconditional love but he just needs you to believe in him because most of the people(if not even all) believe in god only because they get something out of it(get to heaven, get satisfaction, meaning for their lives, comfort). So why can't I believe in god just to get in to heaven anyway? And as far as I'm concerned there are so many gods and religions that I'm probably anyway in the wrong one and the true God who happens to dig mormons instead of other christians just boots me to hell or where ever.
So my strategy is pretty much there. All I can do is wait. And live.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Athiests may appear not to have anything to worry about, but remember the Matrix? "what is the matrix?" "it is the world that has been pulled over your eyes to blind you from the truth" Its like that with atheists. They have been blinded and cannot see the cliff of eternal destruction they are heading towards. They will have plenty to worry about for the rest of eternity, dont worry. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Christians may appear to have nothing to worry about, but remember the Matrix? "what is the matrix?" it is the world that has been pulled over your eyes to blind you from the truth". Its like that with Christians. They have been blinded and cannot see the cliff of eternal nothingness they are headed towards. They will have plenty to worry about for the rest of their miserable lives, don't worry.
See? Hurts doesn't it.
Who is to say that the dogma and teachings of Christianity are not simply lies that have been pulled over YOUR eyes? Saying such a thing makes no sense for either side: it's a dead-end arguement because there's no way to prove either side correct. Don't post stuff like this, it made me (and I'll bet a lot of other people) very angry.
I swear, if there wasn't a very very strict rule about not flaming I would be currently writing a very inflammatory post. Whenever I have debated with Christians here about their faith, I have never once said to them "Your faith is wrong". Everyone's beliefs are their own. For you to go and simply say that every atheist is going to hell really <b>really</b> makes me angry.
If you wish to debate Christianity or atheism, I will gladly do so. I will not however put up with people writing such things that degrade my entire belief system.
Ryo: We all got a little excited over his comment but luckily he apologized in the second page so no reason to go <b>beerzeeerk!</b> /Clerks imitation off
<!--QuoteBegin--Z.X. Bogglesteinsky+Posted: Sep 8 2003, 09:45 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Z.X. Bogglesteinsky @ Posted: Sep 8 2003, 09:45 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Im sorry that I offended you, and anybody else. I didnt want to offend anybody, but I am sorry that I did<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Anyway, ontopic: <!--QuoteBegin--Z.X. Bogglesteinsky+Posted on Sep 8 2003, 04:15 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Z.X. Bogglesteinsky @ Posted on Sep 8 2003, 04:15 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I dont understand what you find "intersting" about the rules. they are quite simple. The punishment for sin is death.
btw, let me rephrase that paragraph.
"The Bible"
there we go <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Wow, hold it right there. Da Bible says all kinds of things and a lot of them contradict each other. For example how can there be hell where all the non-believers go? I mean it's not little Abdullahs fault that he is not born in christian family and hence didn't even have the chance of receiving the message of "one true god". And what if someone is raised to be atheist? It's not like you are actually triumphing over evil when you when <b>decided</b> to born in christian society. Are you saying that African people in the year 1666 didn't have the right to get in to heaven? Were they perhaps bad people because of that?
Warning, mild sarcasm Groovy, I was getting tired of this equal-democratic b-**** anyway. It's nice to see god hates it too and thinks some people are inferioir to others because they are born in different places. /end of sarcasm. Sorry for it in the first place.
Pretty harsh god if he judges people who never even had the chance to hear about him. Rude dude, I don't think I would like to be his roommate in the after life if that is the case.
<!--QuoteBegin--Dread+Sep 8 2003, 06:18 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Dread @ Sep 8 2003, 06:18 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Pretty harsh god if he judges people who never even had the change to hear about him. Rude dude, I don't think I would like to be his roommate in the after life if that is the case. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> trust me, I have exactly the same idea. How does God deal with people who havent had a chance to hear about him. I asked an older christian and he said that Creation was God's revalation of himself to everybody, but I felt that was a bit of a cop-out answer. the truth is, I dont know. Nobody really knos how God will deal with them, but the thing that I as a christian can trust in is that God will be perfectly fair. There will be nobody on judgement day who can turn round to God and say "hang about, thats not fair" because he will be. It is after all, His party.
[edit] as for Ryo-Ohki, you are right. If Christianity turn out to be the wrong thing, I will be completely gutted. I often wonder if Christianity is correct, if the bible is true, because the fact is, if the bible is proved false, then my whole faith goes right down the toilet. The only thing that stops me from being an atheist is the bible. It may be the wool pulled over my eyes and, yes, it does hurt. But, if it is just wool, i would like to know what it's blinding me from. [/edit]
[edit 2] but i agree with Legionnaired. If there was no life after death, i would not change my lifestyle [/edit 2]
<!--QuoteBegin--Ryo-Ohki+Sep 8 2003, 11:03 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Ryo-Ohki @ Sep 8 2003, 11:03 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Athiests may appear not to have anything to worry about, but remember the Matrix? "what is the matrix?" "it is the world that has been pulled over your eyes to blind you from the truth" Its like that with atheists. They have been blinded and cannot see the cliff of eternal destruction they are heading towards. They will have plenty to worry about for the rest of eternity, dont worry. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Christians may appear to have nothing to worry about, but remember the Matrix? "what is the matrix?" it is the world that has been pulled over your eyes to blind you from the truth". Its like that with Christians. They have been blinded and cannot see the cliff of eternal nothingness they are headed towards. They will have plenty to worry about for the rest of their miserable lives, don't worry.
See? Hurts doesn't it.
Who is to say that the dogma and teachings of Christianity are not simply lies that have been pulled over YOUR eyes? Saying such a thing makes no sense for either side: it's a dead-end arguement because there's no way to prove either side correct. Don't post stuff like this, it made me (and I'll bet a lot of other people) very angry.
I swear, if there wasn't a very very strict rule about not flaming I would be currently writing a very inflammatory post. Whenever I have debated with Christians here about their faith, I have never once said to them "Your faith is wrong". Everyone's beliefs are their own. For you to go and simply say that every atheist is going to hell really <b>really</b> makes me angry.
If you wish to debate Christianity or atheism, I will gladly do so. I will not however put up with people writing such things that degrade my entire belief system. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> If, truely, tehre were nothing after death, I would live my life exactly the same way I'm living it now. Maybe not worshipping God, but respecting my fellow man? Loving other people? Sacrificing myself in little, serving ways? Yeah. Why, you ask? Because I do that now because Christ asked me to, and I do feel more joy now than I do otherwise.
That's why I believe that it is true. Not because I can empirically proove it, because I see the joy that God's work creates, and I want to be a part of that.
<!--QuoteBegin--Z.X. Bogglesteinsky+Sep 8 2003, 08:03 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Z.X. Bogglesteinsky @ Sep 8 2003, 08:03 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> There will be nobody on judgement day who can turn round to God and say "hang about, thats not fair" because he will be. It is after all, His party. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> One more thing: if God would be fair and would want everyone to have equal possibilities to get in touch with him, wouldn't he have sent messengers like Jesus all around the world? Besides, I wonder what keeps God from giving every people in the earth a revelation of himself? Problem solved, everyone knows about him and everything is fine and dandy. He can't possibly think that all the people would actually choose him because of 2000 year old rumors. If you ask me, it's pretty narrow minded to send only Jesus to convert millions and billions of people from their veeeeeery old religions.
Have you heard of the last commision? Jesus have finished his job. It is now down to the christians do bring the message to the nations, and the world wont end until every tribe and every language has heard the gospel
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> He can't possibly think that all the people would actually choose him because of 2000 year old rumors.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thats their decision, their problem. He has told them. The ball is in their court now. whether they believe or not is up to them
I think I'm going to check out this muslim thing. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> I just need the Koran to get started.
it's Q'Oran. Koran is the false spelling. Also, go learn how to read Arabic, because that is supposedly the one true translation of the prophet Muhammed.
Do I believe that God forgives all sins? Kill me, restart my heart five minutes later, let's find out.
And Boggle, despite the apology the cliff of eternal darkness thing REALLY got me ticked. and the old adage "in a village of the blind, the one-eyed man is king" doesn't work.
However, Eternal Darkness is a great game and people should go play it if they have GameCube, very anti-religious establishment.
This is what originally got me ousted from believing in God:
The existence of more than one religion!
How can there be one true religion with an all-controlling diety... if not everyone belongs to the religion? Lemme tell you, if there was one "true" or "real" religion, the diety in charge would make pretty damn sure EVERYONE in the world was part of it.
And if the diety put people on this earth, I'd imagine that it wouldn't require everyone to have to test their faith and stuff... why not just hardcode belief in the religion into everyone's mind? And if you say "it's to prove if you are worthy or not," why wouldn't the diety just hardcore all the requisite good deeds and whatnot as well?
When you think about it, the only reason you are christian/muslim/jewish/hindu/whatever is because you were born into it. OK, there are converts, but I would imagine the vaaaaaaaaast majority of religious adherents would be those who are born into a religion. I mean think about the very concept of Sunday school. Did I even UNDERSTAND what the concept of a religion was when I was 5? Of course not! But I "believed in God" because it seemed like that was a some universal paradigm.
As for the entire thread, I don't think God can forgive terrible sinners.. well, because I believe he doesn't exist. I say it's up to society to deal with, forgive, or whatever, sinners.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->If, truely, tehre were nothing after death, I would live my life exactly the same way I'm living it now. Maybe not worshipping God, but respecting my fellow man? Loving other people? Sacrificing myself in little, serving ways? Yeah. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I live my life much the same way. I don't require any faith in a diety to help out others. It's not the thought of some eternal reward that drives me to help people and respect them; it's simply how I would like to be treated as well, and I believe that spreading things like love, understanding and respect is a pretty good way to live ones' life. So, although I'm not a Christian, I do conduct my life in accordance to some of the teachings of a man named Jesus. I don't think he was divine, but it doesn't stop some of his teachings from being profoundly sound.
God created us with the capacity for free will, think about it, if there werent disease and hardship, if we didnt have to work for things, would we appreciate them? There was an episode of the twilight zone where a bankrobber got shot and when he woke up he was on a fluffy cloud where he got everything he wanted, and there were girls there to please him, but he got tired of it cause he got whatever he wanted, and the girls just laughed at him when he tried to hurt them cause he had a sadist streak in him... he went to the St.Peter figure and asked if he could get sent back to earth, and he said no your dead. then he asked if he could be sent to the other place with his friends and eh said no. Then eh said "arent you supposed to like heaven?"
and the St. Peter figure said "Who said anything about heaven?"
ITs late right now, and if i dont do it now, i never will tonight, sooooo, i'll see ya later, im off to finish up Mark....
<!--QuoteBegin--Windelkron+Sep 8 2003, 09:13 PM --></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Windelkron @ Sep 8 2003, 09:13 PM )</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->This is what originally got me ousted from believing in God:
The existence of more than one religion!
How can there be one true religion with an all-controlling diety... if not everyone belongs to the religion? Lemme tell you, if there was one "true" or "real" religion, the diety in charge would make pretty damn sure EVERYONE in the world was part of it.
And if the diety put people on this earth, I'd imagine that it wouldn't require everyone to have to test their faith and stuff... why not just hardcode belief in the religion into everyone's mind? And if you say "it's to prove if you are worthy or not," why wouldn't the diety just hardcore all the requisite good deeds and whatnot as well?
When you think about it, the only reason you are christian/muslim/jewish/hindu/whatever is because you were born into it. OK, there are converts, but I would imagine the vaaaaaaaaast majority of religious adherents would be those who are born into a religion. I mean think about the very concept of Sunday school. Did I even UNDERSTAND what the concept of a religion was when I was 5? Of course not! But I "believed in God" because it seemed like that was a some universal paradigm.
As for the entire thread, I don't think God can forgive terrible sinners.. well, because I believe he doesn't exist. I say it's up to society to deal with, forgive, or whatever, sinners. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Remember back in the days of Moses and Abraham? How they were told by God not to worship false gods and idols? I think there is only one God and that God is the God of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam. These are the dominant religions of today's world and although they might seem different, are quite similiar, because the belief is in the same God. Maybe I am contradicting myself, but Christians and Muslims all have different pereceptions of that God, because they hold different values and ideas based on their culture and current beliefs. Don't call it religion, call it faith, religion is a meaningless label. Since I believe there is only one God, then that means that other religions are incorrect? Yes and No. In my opinion, all religions or "faiths" stem from a source, a true meaning. Things just get misconscrewed over time, because people can't agree on one thing. Everyone has their own distinct thoughts and ideas that just get caught in a tangled wire. God probably set things into motion and let the world do its bidding. Perhaps the devil himself had some role in the religious misfire, but nobody knows. That question is a tough one, maybe someone else with better knowledge in this sort of field could answer you, but until then, God can only answer that one.
As for forgiveness, it is my humble opinion, yet again, that God can forgive even the worst of sinners, if they truly repent in their hearts. This conclusion I bring forth from you guys.
No no Kida, let's forget about Hinduism, the only religion with an country *pretty* much dedicated to it, an entire country with 3x the population of America.
Another thing that got me away from God - The atrocities of the Yugslavic war and the fact that my little sister died when she was 3. IMHO only a mean god would take away someone who's so young they don't even know how to pronounce innocence.
Sigh - yet another post about the contradictions of the Bible. Please, before you go posting about the contradictions of the Bible, actually read someones defence of it. It will save me a WHOLE stack of typing.
What makes you think God killed your little sister? I believe he let your little sister die, but I dont think he was the trigger man. And according to the Bible, children who die before they reach the age of understanding go straight to heaven anyway.
The atrocities of the Yugaslavic war? So tell me, how many people did God get down there and shoot himself? How many did he rape? NONE. He has given people FREE WILL, and they use it. He intervenes at times to ensure that his plan eventually comes to fruitition, but ultimately humans make their own choices.
God COULD make everyone part of the same religion. All he has to do is come down here and show us all himself. And then you would be forced to sign up to the one religion, after having seen God you would have no choice in the matter. So God has taken away your choice. He said, I give you free will - and therefore people are free to sign up to whatever religion they want to.
Really good book to read - does God believe in Atheists? And the eventual answer was no. At some point in everyones lives, people are given a choice to either accept him, or reject him. So if you are living in a remote himalayan mountain, and have never heard of Bible or Jesus, you will still be given the choice. Thus I am convinced that there are going to be a whole stack of Muslims, hindus and whatnot in heaven.
However, if you hear the message of Jesus, and it is explained clearly and lucidly to you, and you reject it - well that was your point in time where you rejected God.
So Marine01, say heaven exists. Will I end up there? I don't believe in god, but I do follow many of the teachings of Jesus, at least the non-religious ones. If one follows such ideas as "love one another", "love thy neighbour", "turn the other cheek", is such a person worthy material in heaven? Or are such people rejected simply because they won't commit to an abstract idea such as "faith"?
Bear in mind I don't care whether I get into heaven or not because I don't believe it's there. This is more a question about morals and ethics having any effect on how your deity might view people.
Oh, and god might not believe in atheists, but we believe in ourselves. That's all the evidence we need to live our lives as we see fit.
<!--QuoteBegin--Ryo-Ohki+Sep 9 2003, 03:42 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Ryo-Ohki @ Sep 9 2003, 03:42 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> So Marine01, say heaven exists. Will I end up there? I don't believe in god, but I do follow many of the teachings of Jesus, at least the non-religious ones. If one follows such ideas as "love one another", "love thy neighbour", "turn the other cheek", is such a person worthy material in heaven? Or are such people rejected simply because they won't commit to an abstract idea such as "faith"?
Bear in mind I don't care whether I get into heaven or not because I don't believe it's there. This is more a question about morals and ethics having any effect on how your deity might view people.
Oh, and god might not believe in atheists, but we believe in ourselves. That's all the evidence we need to live our lives as we see fit. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> The whole point is that at some point we fail...how often in your life have you not "turned the other cheek" or "loved thy neighbor as yourself"? I bet if you're honest you'll realize that you weren't perfect. God can't stand imperfection, and therefore we as sinners will be cast away from him. The whole point is you can't get into heaven by works, but by the grace of God.
And you may believe in yourself, but perhaps you've heard the saying "An unexamined life isn't worth living"? Well an examined life isn't worth very much either. You may think that a God who demands perfection isn't being fair, but we really can't question him either can we? I think people don't like to realize that he can do whatever he pleases with us. It goes against the very grain of modern "humans are the most advanced race ever, let's play God with Earth" mentality.
<!--QuoteBegin--Wheeee+Sep 9 2003, 09:12 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Wheeee @ Sep 9 2003, 09:12 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--Ryo-Ohki+Sep 9 2003, 03:42 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Ryo-Ohki @ Sep 9 2003, 03:42 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> So Marine01, say heaven exists. Will I end up there? I don't believe in god, but I do follow many of the teachings of Jesus, at least the non-religious ones. If one follows such ideas as "love one another", "love thy neighbour", "turn the other cheek", is such a person worthy material in heaven? Or are such people rejected simply because they won't commit to an abstract idea such as "faith"?
Bear in mind I don't care whether I get into heaven or not because I don't believe it's there. This is more a question about morals and ethics having any effect on how your deity might view people.
Oh, and god might not believe in atheists, but we believe in ourselves. That's all the evidence we need to live our lives as we see fit. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> The whole point is that at some point we fail...how often in your life have you not "turned the other cheek" or "loved thy neighbor as yourself"? I bet if you're honest you'll realize that you weren't perfect. God can't stand imperfection, and therefore we as sinners will be cast away from him. The whole point is you can't get into heaven by works, but by the grace of God.
And you may believe in yourself, but perhaps you've heard the saying "An unexamined life isn't worth living"? Well an examined life isn't worth very much either. You may think that a God who demands perfection isn't being fair, but we really can't question him either can we? I think people don't like to realize that he can do whatever he pleases with us. It goes against the very grain of modern "humans are the most advanced race ever, let's play God with Earth" mentality.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The whole point is you can't get into heaven by works, but by the grace of God? Well unless you are a Catholic who believes you need faith and good works.
You may think that a God who demands perfection isn't being fair, but we really can't question him either can we?
If he created us and can't stand imperfection then there is something very wrong.
Just thought I'd add a bit here :
The belief that all people go to heaven is <a href='http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=universalism' target='_blank'>Universalism</a> and it focuses on the idea that God is all-loving and so could never damn to Hell those whom He loves. One group that believes this are the <a href='http://www.uua.org/' target='_blank'>Unitarian Universalists</a>, who are a liberal group of congregations across North America (and beyond) who's numbers appear to be growing. Good on them I say.
Well Ryo, I cant say for sure. As an Atheist, I dont like your chances. If you have never had Christianity reasonably explained to you, then perhaps.
At the end of the day I cant say for sure who goes and who wont. I can be pretty sure about certain people, but I just dont know.
I do know for sure that Christians who have accepted Jesus into their lives will.
As I've said before, its not about what you do. Its whether you choose to accept or reject God. The Title "Does God believe in Atheists" was created by the author to make a point.
He believed that everyone knows there is a God, its just that at some point they will make a choice whether to continue believing. So in that sense, he thinks God doesnt believe in Atheists because atheists are people who dont believe in God. He thinks that everyone believes in God, they just choose to reject their belief.
EDIT - some stuff above didnt make sense so I'm correcting it in the dit
EDIT God didnt create us imperfect, we went that way of our own accord. We have got ourselves into this mess, we cant get ourselves out, so God has created us a way out. Say thankyou <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--Josiah Bartlet+Sep 9 2003, 10:47 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Josiah Bartlet @ Sep 9 2003, 10:47 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> If he created us and can't stand imperfection then there is something very wrong. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> yes there is.
Humans
When we were created, we were perfect. God came and talked with adam and even in the cool of the day when they were in Eden. When they fell, God could not have them in his presence so they were banished. It is only by his grace and mercy that we can even think about him without getting destroyed.
<!--QuoteBegin--Z.X. Bogglesteinsky+Sep 9 2003, 10:36 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Z.X. Bogglesteinsky @ Sep 9 2003, 10:36 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--Josiah Bartlet+Sep 9 2003, 10:47 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Josiah Bartlet @ Sep 9 2003, 10:47 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> If he created us and can't stand imperfection then there is something very wrong. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> yes there is.
Humans
When we were created, we were perfect. God came and talked with adam and even in the cool of the day when they were in Eden. When they fell, God could not have them in his presence so they were banished. It is only by his grace and mercy that we can even think about him without getting destroyed. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Speaking of Adam and Eve, I want to know how an all-loving God decided to punish every single human being that ever existed because of the actions of two people. If God's creations were perfect then they shouldn't have fallen, there must have been a flaw in the way God created Adam and Eve for them to go against his wishes and eat the fruit.
Obviously if there is something wrong with humans we should be smited or something, because it is obvious that God doesn't love us if he only sends Jesus down to give out his teachings when there are so many other teachings that one could follow and so many people that need to be converted.
It would appear that there is a limit to God's love, that he loves all that is perfect(himself apparently) and tolerates that which is imperfect.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->God can't stand imperfection, and therefore we as sinners will be cast away from him. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So we're all born with original sin, meaning that we're all damned to hell forever because some guy millenia ago ate an apple.
....
How long does one deity hold a grudge!? I mean seriously, you expect people to believe that this god is "loving" and "forgiving" when he will accept only one form of worship, one set of morals and ethics and absolute total perfection?!
No-one is perfect. No-one can live their whole lives without sinning. Therefore, your god hates everyone and only grudgingly allows anyone near him/her/it when they have lived lives that make Mother Theresa look like a prostitute. When someone in our society goes around killing people because they're imperfect, we call them serial killers. What makes this god any differant? He slaughters millions of us and damns the rest of us to eternal suffering. And you tell me people enter into this religion by choice?!
Btw Marine01 I went to a Catholic primary and high school. I've read the entire Bible numerous times. I had certain parts of it crammed down my throat. Yes, I know about Christianity.
*que people saying "Oh, but they taught you the wrong version of Christianity! Catholics are wrong! Here, we only listen to the New Testemant where god is loving and kind and everyone is happy except for homosexuals who we wish to burn" *
How could deeds <i>not</i> affect your eternal fate? A law has been given to us, and we will be judged by our ability to obey it. It doesn't surprise me that the atheists, with their natural intuition, sense the inconsistencies in the "faith alone" doctrine and expose them without mercy. The question where unbaptized children will spend eternity must be answered.
Given that God is the wisest of judges, it is reasonable to assume that a soul which died in original sin but without mortal sin will be subjected to a different kind of punishment than a soul stained by the gravest of sins. In fact, many doctors have come to the conclusion that Limbo is not devoid of joy, although its inhabitants will never behold God.
<!--QuoteBegin--Josiah Bartlet+Sep 9 2003, 12:04 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Josiah Bartlet @ Sep 9 2003, 12:04 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Just to some up what I was saying.
How can God be all-loving if he doesn't love all? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> He is all loving, and he does love everybody but he is also perfect and he cannot have imperfection in heaven, becasue heaven is perfect
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->So we're all born with original sin, meaning that we're all damned to hell forever because some guy millenia ago ate an apple. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes. Adam, as the first human is the representative of the human race. "For in Adam all die, so in christ are all made alive" There are 2 representatives of the human race: Adam, whose descendants are going to hell, and Jesus, whose descendants are going to heaven
<!--QuoteBegin--Z.X. Bogglesteinsky+Sep 9 2003, 11:18 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Z.X. Bogglesteinsky @ Sep 9 2003, 11:18 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--Josiah Bartlet+Sep 9 2003, 12:04 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Josiah Bartlet @ Sep 9 2003, 12:04 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Just to some up what I was saying.
How can God be all-loving if he doesn't love all? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> He is all loving, and he does love everybody but he is also perfect and he cannot have imperfection in heaven, becasue heaven is perfect
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->So we're all born with original sin, meaning that we're all damned to hell forever because some guy millenia ago ate an apple. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes. Adam, as the first human is the representative of the human race. "For in Adam all die, so in christ are all made alive" There are 2 representatives of the human race: Adam, whose descendants are going to hell, and Jesus, whose descendants are going to heaven <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> If only perfect people go to Heaven then God is going to be pretty lonely (must be why he has three parts to him). He had better just wipe the slate clean because he has done a poor job with us.
To quote John Stuart Mill :
"I will call no being good who is not what I mean when I apply that epithet to my fellow creatures; and if such a creature can sentence me to hell for not so calling him, to hell I will go."
I wouldnt say Catholics are wrong as such, I just think they got their focus a little mixed up somewhere. And as for only supporting the NT, I'm all for the whole darn book.
God does love everyone. He wants everyone to be with him. However, he leaves the choice of whether you want to be with him or not up to YOU. You decide. If you dont want to be with him, he sends you to a place without him.
He wont enjoy it, but he loves you so much that he is willing to respect your choice. God created us perfect, and then gave us the ability to make a choice.
God doesnt usually do the killing himself. I wont say he never has because he has certainly killed a fair few people according to the OT, but I will say that in general its not him killing. Its people killing people. Or people suffering the natural consequence of sin - death.
So please, stop saying that God sends people to hell. People choose to go to hell, simply because they reject God.
Comments
"
"
There you go. Do you feel enlightened now?
btw, let me rephrase that paragraph.
"The Bible"
there we go
the God <i>you</i> have in mind -- a fully transcendent, abstract concept no man can fathom -- is Allah. The Christian God is not like that. Father/Son/Holy Ghost revealed His nature, so that we can understand Him and have a relationship with Him.
This is the fundamental difference between Islam and Christianity.
Aye, but I was told here in forums that God doesn't need your unconditional love but he just needs you to believe in him because most of the people(if not even all) believe in god only because they get something out of it(get to heaven, get satisfaction, meaning for their lives, comfort). So why can't I believe in god just to get in to heaven anyway? And as far as I'm concerned there are so many gods and religions that I'm probably anyway in the wrong one and the true God who happens to dig mormons instead of other christians just boots me to hell or where ever.
So my strategy is pretty much there. All I can do is wait. And live.
Christians may appear to have nothing to worry about, but remember the Matrix? "what is the matrix?" it is the world that has been pulled over your eyes to blind you from the truth". Its like that with Christians. They have been blinded and cannot see the cliff of eternal nothingness they are headed towards. They will have plenty to worry about for the rest of their miserable lives, don't worry.
See? Hurts doesn't it.
Who is to say that the dogma and teachings of Christianity are not simply lies that have been pulled over YOUR eyes? Saying such a thing makes no sense for either side: it's a dead-end arguement because there's no way to prove either side correct. Don't post stuff like this, it made me (and I'll bet a lot of other people) very angry.
I swear, if there wasn't a very very strict rule about not flaming I would be currently writing a very inflammatory post. Whenever I have debated with Christians here about their faith, I have never once said to them "Your faith is wrong". Everyone's beliefs are their own. For you to go and simply say that every atheist is going to hell really <b>really</b> makes me angry.
If you wish to debate Christianity or atheism, I will gladly do so. I will not however put up with people writing such things that degrade my entire belief system.
<!--QuoteBegin--Z.X. Bogglesteinsky+Posted: Sep 8 2003, 09:45 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Z.X. Bogglesteinsky @ Posted: Sep 8 2003, 09:45 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Im sorry that I offended you, and anybody else. I didnt want to offend anybody, but I am sorry that I did<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Anyway, ontopic:
<!--QuoteBegin--Z.X. Bogglesteinsky+Posted on Sep 8 2003, 04:15 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Z.X. Bogglesteinsky @ Posted on Sep 8 2003, 04:15 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
I dont understand what you find "intersting" about the rules. they are quite simple. The punishment for sin is death.
btw, let me rephrase that paragraph.
"The Bible"
there we go <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Wow, hold it right there. Da Bible says all kinds of things and a lot of them contradict each other. For example how can there be hell where all the non-believers go? I mean it's not little Abdullahs fault that he is not born in christian family and hence didn't even have the chance of receiving the message of "one true god". And what if someone is raised to be atheist? It's not like you are actually triumphing over evil when you when <b>decided</b> to born in christian society. Are you saying that African people in the year 1666 didn't have the right to get in to heaven? Were they perhaps bad people because of that?
Warning, mild sarcasm
Groovy, I was getting tired of this equal-democratic b-**** anyway. It's nice to see god hates it too and thinks some people are inferioir to others because they are born in different places.
/end of sarcasm. Sorry for it in the first place.
Pretty harsh god if he judges people who never even had the chance to hear about him. Rude dude, I don't think I would like to be his roommate in the after life if that is the case.
trust me, I have exactly the same idea. How does God deal with people who havent had a chance to hear about him. I asked an older christian and he said that Creation was God's revalation of himself to everybody, but I felt that was a bit of a cop-out answer. the truth is, I dont know. Nobody really knos how God will deal with them, but the thing that I as a christian can trust in is that God will be perfectly fair. There will be nobody on judgement day who can turn round to God and say "hang about, thats not fair" because he will be. It is after all, His party.
[edit] as for Ryo-Ohki, you are right. If Christianity turn out to be the wrong thing, I will be completely gutted. I often wonder if Christianity is correct, if the bible is true, because the fact is, if the bible is proved false, then my whole faith goes right down the toilet. The only thing that stops me from being an atheist is the bible. It may be the wool pulled over my eyes and, yes, it does hurt. But, if it is just wool, i would like to know what it's blinding me from. [/edit]
[edit 2] but i agree with Legionnaired. If there was no life after death, i would not change my lifestyle [/edit 2]
Christians may appear to have nothing to worry about, but remember the Matrix? "what is the matrix?" it is the world that has been pulled over your eyes to blind you from the truth". Its like that with Christians. They have been blinded and cannot see the cliff of eternal nothingness they are headed towards. They will have plenty to worry about for the rest of their miserable lives, don't worry.
See? Hurts doesn't it.
Who is to say that the dogma and teachings of Christianity are not simply lies that have been pulled over YOUR eyes? Saying such a thing makes no sense for either side: it's a dead-end arguement because there's no way to prove either side correct. Don't post stuff like this, it made me (and I'll bet a lot of other people) very angry.
I swear, if there wasn't a very very strict rule about not flaming I would be currently writing a very inflammatory post. Whenever I have debated with Christians here about their faith, I have never once said to them "Your faith is wrong". Everyone's beliefs are their own. For you to go and simply say that every atheist is going to hell really <b>really</b> makes me angry.
If you wish to debate Christianity or atheism, I will gladly do so. I will not however put up with people writing such things that degrade my entire belief system. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
If, truely, tehre were nothing after death, I would live my life exactly the same way I'm living it now. Maybe not worshipping God, but respecting my fellow man? Loving other people? Sacrificing myself in little, serving ways? Yeah. Why, you ask? Because I do that now because Christ asked me to, and I do feel more joy now than I do otherwise.
That's why I believe that it is true. Not because I can empirically proove it, because I see the joy that God's work creates, and I want to be a part of that.
One more thing: if God would be fair and would want everyone to have equal possibilities to get in touch with him, wouldn't he have sent messengers like Jesus all around the world? Besides, I wonder what keeps God from giving every people in the earth a revelation of himself? Problem solved, everyone knows about him and everything is fine and dandy. He can't possibly think that all the people would actually choose him because of 2000 year old rumors. If you ask me, it's pretty narrow minded to send only Jesus to convert millions and billions of people from their veeeeeery old religions.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> He can't possibly think that all the people would actually choose him because of 2000 year old rumors.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thats their decision, their problem. He has told them. The ball is in their court now. whether they believe or not is up to them
Do I believe that God forgives all sins? Kill me, restart my heart five minutes later, let's find out.
And Boggle, despite the apology the cliff of eternal darkness thing REALLY got me ticked. and the old adage "in a village of the blind, the one-eyed man is king" doesn't work.
However, Eternal Darkness is a great game and people should go play it if they have GameCube, very anti-religious establishment.
The existence of more than one religion!
How can there be one true religion with an all-controlling diety... if not everyone belongs to the religion? Lemme tell you, if there was one "true" or "real" religion, the diety in charge would make pretty damn sure EVERYONE in the world was part of it.
And if the diety put people on this earth, I'd imagine that it wouldn't require everyone to have to test their faith and stuff... why not just hardcode belief in the religion into everyone's mind? And if you say "it's to prove if you are worthy or not," why wouldn't the diety just hardcore all the requisite good deeds and whatnot as well?
When you think about it, the only reason you are christian/muslim/jewish/hindu/whatever is because you were born into it. OK, there are converts, but I would imagine the vaaaaaaaaast majority of religious adherents would be those who are born into a religion. I mean think about the very concept of Sunday school. Did I even UNDERSTAND what the concept of a religion was when I was 5? Of course not! But I "believed in God" because it seemed like that was a some universal paradigm.
As for the entire thread, I don't think God can forgive terrible sinners.. well, because I believe he doesn't exist. I say it's up to society to deal with, forgive, or whatever, sinners.
I live my life much the same way. I don't require any faith in a diety to help out others. It's not the thought of some eternal reward that drives me to help people and respect them; it's simply how I would like to be treated as well, and I believe that spreading things like love, understanding and respect is a pretty good way to live ones' life. So, although I'm not a Christian, I do conduct my life in accordance to some of the teachings of a man named Jesus. I don't think he was divine, but it doesn't stop some of his teachings from being profoundly sound.
and the St. Peter figure said "Who said anything about heaven?"
ITs late right now, and if i dont do it now, i never will tonight, sooooo, i'll see ya later, im off to finish up Mark....
The existence of more than one religion!
How can there be one true religion with an all-controlling diety... if not everyone belongs to the religion? Lemme tell you, if there was one "true" or "real" religion, the diety in charge would make pretty damn sure EVERYONE in the world was part of it.
And if the diety put people on this earth, I'd imagine that it wouldn't require everyone to have to test their faith and stuff... why not just hardcode belief in the religion into everyone's mind? And if you say "it's to prove if you are worthy or not," why wouldn't the diety just hardcore all the requisite good deeds and whatnot as well?
When you think about it, the only reason you are christian/muslim/jewish/hindu/whatever is because you were born into it. OK, there are converts, but I would imagine the vaaaaaaaaast majority of religious adherents would be those who are born into a religion. I mean think about the very concept of Sunday school. Did I even UNDERSTAND what the concept of a religion was when I was 5? Of course not! But I "believed in God" because it seemed like that was a some universal paradigm.
As for the entire thread, I don't think God can forgive terrible sinners.. well, because I believe he doesn't exist. I say it's up to society to deal with, forgive, or whatever, sinners. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Remember back in the days of Moses and Abraham? How they were told by God not to worship false gods and idols? I think there is only one God and that God is the God of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam. These are the dominant religions of today's world and although they might seem different, are quite similiar, because the belief is in the same God. Maybe I am contradicting myself, but Christians and Muslims all have different pereceptions of that God, because they hold different values and ideas based on their culture and current beliefs. Don't call it religion, call it faith, religion is a meaningless label. Since I believe there is only one God, then that means that other religions are incorrect? Yes and No. In my opinion, all religions or "faiths" stem from a source, a true meaning. Things just get misconscrewed over time, because people can't agree on one thing. Everyone has their own distinct thoughts and ideas that just get caught in a tangled wire. God probably set things into motion and let the world do its bidding. Perhaps the devil himself had some role in the religious misfire, but nobody knows.
That question is a tough one, maybe someone else with better knowledge in this sort of field could answer you, but until then, God can only answer that one.
As for forgiveness, it is my humble opinion, yet again, that God can forgive even the worst of sinners, if they truly repent in their hearts. This conclusion I bring forth from you guys.
Another thing that got me away from God - The atrocities of the Yugslavic war and the fact that my little sister died when she was 3. IMHO only a mean god would take away someone who's so young they don't even know how to pronounce innocence.
What makes you think God killed your little sister? I believe he let your little sister die, but I dont think he was the trigger man. And according to the Bible, children who die before they reach the age of understanding go straight to heaven anyway.
The atrocities of the Yugaslavic war? So tell me, how many people did God get down there and shoot himself? How many did he rape? NONE. He has given people FREE WILL, and they use it. He intervenes at times to ensure that his plan eventually comes to fruitition, but ultimately humans make their own choices.
God COULD make everyone part of the same religion. All he has to do is come down here and show us all himself. And then you would be forced to sign up to the one religion, after having seen God you would have no choice in the matter. So God has taken away your choice. He said, I give you free will - and therefore people are free to sign up to whatever religion they want to.
Really good book to read - does God believe in Atheists? And the eventual answer was no. At some point in everyones lives, people are given a choice to either accept him, or reject him. So if you are living in a remote himalayan mountain, and have never heard of Bible or Jesus, you will still be given the choice. Thus I am convinced that there are going to be a whole stack of Muslims, hindus and whatnot in heaven.
However, if you hear the message of Jesus, and it is explained clearly and lucidly to you, and you reject it - well that was your point in time where you rejected God.
Bear in mind I don't care whether I get into heaven or not because I don't believe it's there. This is more a question about morals and ethics having any effect on how your deity might view people.
Oh, and god might not believe in atheists, but we believe in ourselves. That's all the evidence we need to live our lives as we see fit.
Bear in mind I don't care whether I get into heaven or not because I don't believe it's there. This is more a question about morals and ethics having any effect on how your deity might view people.
Oh, and god might not believe in atheists, but we believe in ourselves. That's all the evidence we need to live our lives as we see fit. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
The whole point is that at some point we fail...how often in your life have you not "turned the other cheek" or "loved thy neighbor as yourself"? I bet if you're honest you'll realize that you weren't perfect. God can't stand imperfection, and therefore we as sinners will be cast away from him. The whole point is you can't get into heaven by works, but by the grace of God.
And you may believe in yourself, but perhaps you've heard the saying "An unexamined life isn't worth living"? Well an examined life isn't worth very much either. You may think that a God who demands perfection isn't being fair, but we really can't question him either can we? I think people don't like to realize that he can do whatever he pleases with us. It goes against the very grain of modern "humans are the most advanced race ever, let's play God with Earth" mentality.
Bear in mind I don't care whether I get into heaven or not because I don't believe it's there. This is more a question about morals and ethics having any effect on how your deity might view people.
Oh, and god might not believe in atheists, but we believe in ourselves. That's all the evidence we need to live our lives as we see fit. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The whole point is that at some point we fail...how often in your life have you not "turned the other cheek" or "loved thy neighbor as yourself"? I bet if you're honest you'll realize that you weren't perfect. God can't stand imperfection, and therefore we as sinners will be cast away from him. The whole point is you can't get into heaven by works, but by the grace of God.
And you may believe in yourself, but perhaps you've heard the saying "An unexamined life isn't worth living"? Well an examined life isn't worth very much either. You may think that a God who demands perfection isn't being fair, but we really can't question him either can we? I think people don't like to realize that he can do whatever he pleases with us. It goes against the very grain of modern "humans are the most advanced race ever, let's play God with Earth" mentality.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The whole point is you can't get into heaven by works, but by the grace of God? Well unless you are a Catholic who believes you need faith and good works.
You may think that a God who demands perfection isn't being fair, but we really can't question him either can we?
If he created us and can't stand imperfection then there is something very wrong.
Just thought I'd add a bit here :
The belief that all people go to heaven is <a href='http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=universalism' target='_blank'>Universalism</a> and it focuses on the idea that God is all-loving and so could never damn to Hell those whom He loves. One group that believes this are the <a href='http://www.uua.org/' target='_blank'>Unitarian Universalists</a>, who are a liberal group of congregations across North America (and beyond) who's numbers appear to be growing. Good on them I say.
At the end of the day I cant say for sure who goes and who wont. I can be pretty sure about certain people, but I just dont know.
I do know for sure that Christians who have accepted Jesus into their lives will.
As I've said before, its not about what you do. Its whether you choose to accept or reject God. The Title "Does God believe in Atheists" was created by the author to make a point.
He believed that everyone knows there is a God, its just that at some point they will make a choice whether to continue believing. So in that sense, he thinks God doesnt believe in Atheists because atheists are people who dont believe in God. He thinks that everyone believes in God, they just choose to reject their belief.
EDIT - some stuff above didnt make sense so I'm correcting it in the dit
EDIT God didnt create us imperfect, we went that way of our own accord. We have got ourselves into this mess, we cant get ourselves out, so God has created us a way out. Say thankyou <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
yes there is.
Humans
When we were created, we were perfect. God came and talked with adam and even in the cool of the day when they were in Eden. When they fell, God could not have them in his presence so they were banished. It is only by his grace and mercy that we can even think about him without getting destroyed.
yes there is.
Humans
When we were created, we were perfect. God came and talked with adam and even in the cool of the day when they were in Eden. When they fell, God could not have them in his presence so they were banished. It is only by his grace and mercy that we can even think about him without getting destroyed. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Speaking of Adam and Eve, I want to know how an all-loving God decided to punish every single human being that ever existed because of the actions of two people. If God's creations were perfect then they shouldn't have fallen, there must have been a flaw in the way God created Adam and Eve for them to go against his wishes and eat the fruit.
Obviously if there is something wrong with humans we should be smited or something, because it is obvious that God doesn't love us if he only sends Jesus down to give out his teachings when there are so many other teachings that one could follow and so many people that need to be converted.
It would appear that there is a limit to God's love, that he loves all that is perfect(himself apparently) and tolerates that which is imperfect.
So we're all born with original sin, meaning that we're all damned to hell forever because some guy millenia ago ate an apple.
....
How long does one deity hold a grudge!? I mean seriously, you expect people to believe that this god is "loving" and "forgiving" when he will accept only one form of worship, one set of morals and ethics and absolute total perfection?!
No-one is perfect. No-one can live their whole lives without sinning. Therefore, your god hates everyone and only grudgingly allows anyone near him/her/it when they have lived lives that make Mother Theresa look like a prostitute. When someone in our society goes around killing people because they're imperfect, we call them serial killers. What makes this god any differant? He slaughters millions of us and damns the rest of us to eternal suffering. And you tell me people enter into this religion by choice?!
Btw Marine01 I went to a Catholic primary and high school. I've read the entire Bible numerous times. I had certain parts of it crammed down my throat. Yes, I know about Christianity.
*que people saying "Oh, but they taught you the wrong version of Christianity! Catholics are wrong! Here, we only listen to the New Testemant where god is loving and kind and everyone is happy except for homosexuals who we wish to burn" *
How can God be all-loving if he doesn't love all?
Given that God is the wisest of judges, it is reasonable to assume that a soul which died in original sin but without mortal sin will be subjected to a different kind of punishment than a soul stained by the gravest of sins. In fact, many doctors have come to the conclusion that Limbo is not devoid of joy, although its inhabitants will never behold God.
How can God be all-loving if he doesn't love all? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
He is all loving, and he does love everybody but he is also perfect and he cannot have imperfection in heaven, becasue heaven is perfect
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->So we're all born with original sin, meaning that we're all damned to hell forever because some guy millenia ago ate an apple.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes. Adam, as the first human is the representative of the human race. "For in Adam all die, so in christ are all made alive" There are 2 representatives of the human race: Adam, whose descendants are going to hell, and Jesus, whose descendants are going to heaven
How can God be all-loving if he doesn't love all? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
He is all loving, and he does love everybody but he is also perfect and he cannot have imperfection in heaven, becasue heaven is perfect
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->So we're all born with original sin, meaning that we're all damned to hell forever because some guy millenia ago ate an apple.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes. Adam, as the first human is the representative of the human race. "For in Adam all die, so in christ are all made alive" There are 2 representatives of the human race: Adam, whose descendants are going to hell, and Jesus, whose descendants are going to heaven <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
If only perfect people go to Heaven then God is going to be pretty lonely (must be why he has three parts to him). He had better just wipe the slate clean because he has done a poor job with us.
To quote John Stuart Mill :
"I will call no being good who is not what I mean when I apply that epithet to my fellow creatures; and if such a creature can sentence me to hell for not so calling him, to hell I will go."
God does love everyone. He wants everyone to be with him. However, he leaves the choice of whether you want to be with him or not up to YOU. You decide. If you dont want to be with him, he sends you to a place without him.
He wont enjoy it, but he loves you so much that he is willing to respect your choice. God created us perfect, and then gave us the ability to make a choice.
God doesnt usually do the killing himself. I wont say he never has because he has certainly killed a fair few people according to the OT, but I will say that in general its not him killing. Its people killing people. Or people suffering the natural consequence of sin - death.
So please, stop saying that God sends people to hell. People choose to go to hell, simply because they reject God.