Oh, so god is kind by simply "sending us to a place away from him". Of course, this place is full of fire, pain and eternal torment. Yeah, he really loves us if that's what happens.
What really just makes me want to burst out laughing whilst at the same time crying is that you poor people actually think of yourselves as entirely worthless. You've embraced a belief system where you all consider yourselves the lowest forms of life in the universe and believe that you have to spend your entire life making up for it.
Man, you guys on anti-depressants? I know I would be.
Let's say God exists. Let's also say the conditions exist that a) God loves us, and that b) he gave us free choice, because what kind of love is it if you force something on someone?
So. He creates us (humans), with free choice as a given. As part of this choice, we can either do what he wants of us, whatever that may be, and wind up with him for eternity OR we can ignore him and be sent 'away' from him.
If I remember correctly, to be away from God at that point (death?) is eternal suffering (fire & brimstone, whatever. let's just say it sucks hardcore.) .
So. Would a loving, all-powerful(?) being even RISK us to have a relatively short existance doing whatever, and possibly end up suffering for *eternity*?
Marine01: (sorry, not sure how to do Quotes properly) "God created us perfect, and then gave us the ability to make a choice."
Perfect? If I was created 'perfect' I certainly wouldn't choose to change, especially if there's risk (Hell) involved.
"So please, stop saying that God sends people to hell. People choose to go to hell, simply because they reject God."
So basically, do or die. It's not a CHOICE; it's not like they go "Hmm, Heaven or Hell.. I think I'll try Hell, see what it's like." It's the result of being given only two options, and either being unable or unwilling to go along with one, so they're forced to accept the results of the other.
Twex: "Given that God is the wisest of judges, it is reasonable to assume that a soul which died in original sin but without mortal sin will be subjected to a different kind of punishment than a soul stained by the gravest of sins"
Forgive me if I misunderstand, I'm assuming this is in response to the "where unbaptized children go" thought. Anyway, so this child, which hasn't done ANYTHING wrong, is going to be punished either way?
I still don't get how Christians can hold the belief that God is all-loving when he sends people to Hell.
If I were God I would have a better afterlife than just "Perfect people go to Heaven, everyone else goes to Hell"
I would never be able to send anyone to Hell, especially for all eternity. To me that is just wrong, people make mistakes - I'd try and show them where the went wrong in their life not just "You were a non-Christian, feel my wrath in Hell!"
I feel that the view that non-Christians go to Hell is extremely wrong, seriously offensive, immoral and should not be condoned. Its an extremly blinkered view of the world, coming from very little actual proof.
If my feelings are wrong, I most certainly do not wish to be right.
The worlds population is around 6 billion (if I remember correctly using the American billion (10^9)not the British billion(10^12)
The number of Christians in the world is over one billion (according to the BBC) and two billion (according to <a href='http://www.adherents.com/Religions_By_Adherents.html' target='_blank'>here</a>)
Assuming (a very big assumption) that all these Christians still believe in the Christain faith and our active Christians that means that between 1/6th and 1/3rd of the worlds population go to Heaven.
That leaves (at the very least) 2/3rds of the worlds population to go to Hell, which seems to me like God is failing or at least Jesus' teachings are.
Well, I'll admit that hell is going to be REALLY miserable, but thats just because its a place without God. Any place without God is pure misery. Humans were created to be with God, and if they choose to be without forever, then they are going to be really, really miserable. Fire is the least of your worries.
And yes, God does risk that happening, if he takes away risk, he takes away choice. So why did God make us in the first place? That'll be my first question when I see him. I have a suspicion he had a good reason.
I think perfect was a poor choice of words on my part. Perhaps sinless is getting a little closer to where I was aiming.
Only God is perfect, and he created humans sinless in the beginning.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->It's the result of being given only two options, and either being unable or unwilling to go along with one, so they're forced to accept the results of the other. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
They are not forced to do anything. Nothing is forced upon them. They may choose to ignore the consequence of their choice ie eternal separation from God, but the choice is still theirs.
As for children being punished - they aint. Children who havent yet reached the age of understanding go straight to God.
Josiah, I feel my theory on Hell covers pretty much most of your arguement. God doesnt blast you with his wrath, as he should, he instead simply sends you were you choose to go - a place without him.
Oh and Ryo, strange that you think we should be on vallium or something, all the Christians I know are really happy. Sure we admit that we are miserable specks compared to God, but we have an all powerful being that loves us and is deeply interested about everything that happens to us. That gives me the warm fuzzies.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Forgive me if I misunderstand, I'm assuming this is in response to the "where unbaptized children go" thought. Anyway, so this child, which hasn't done ANYTHING wrong, is going to be punished either way? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yes. It is explicitly clear that without baptism, there is no salvation (John 3:5). This was confirmed by the Council of Trent in infallible definition. Unbaptized souls suffer from original sin, and every sin carries its punishment.
However, it must be stressed that thinking of Hell as a singular, homogeneous place is far too simplistic. Even we, in our imperfect justice system, know of many different grades between "not guilty" and "capital punishment". How many more will the perfect judge know?
The casual meaning of Hell refers only to its sub-category reserved for the truly wicked, the Eternal Fire. You can trust God to send there only those who deserve it without doubt. I cannot think of a God so cruel that he would send children there whose only fault it was that they died with Adam's curse still on their souls. Surely, their afterlife, although not in the Kingdom of Heaven, will nonetheless be quite joyful. Being without the burden of the flesh will hopefully outweigh the pain of loss which all inhabitants of Hell, who are denied the beatific vision of God forever, have to endure. <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I still don't get how Christians can hold the belief that God is all-loving when he sends people to Hell.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> What does it mean to be all-loving? If you have ever visited an anti-authoritan kindergarden, you will agree that it cannot mean being all-forgiving. If everything is forgiven, no rule truly matters, and chaos ensues.
Perfect love requires the impeccable balance of mercy <i>and</i> justice. God ensures that no transgression of the law will ever go unpunished, yet still, no punishment is too cruel to endure and no restitution too high to pay.
<!--QuoteBegin--Twex+Sep 9 2003, 01:48 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Twex @ Sep 9 2003, 01:48 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Perfect love requires the impeccable balance of mercy <i>and</i> justice. God ensures that no transgression of the law will ever go unpunished, yet still, no punishment is too cruel to endure and no restitution too high to pay. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I didn't say he had to forgive everything right off the bat, he should, however, be able to show people the error of their ways but God doesn't appear to love us enough for that so he just sends you to Hell.
You're all scareing me. At first I thought some of you were just fooling around but you actually believe this stuff.
I'm getting the hell out of this thread and I ain't coming back. Keep your religion, I've seen more than enough to convince me a thousand times over that my decision to abandom Christianty was one of the best decisions of my life.
<!--QuoteBegin--Marine01+Sep 9 2003, 02:00 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Marine01 @ Sep 9 2003, 02:00 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->God doesnt show us the error of our ways? Really? Thats what we have the conscience and the Bible for.
As for what Twex said - amen. Dont forget we are dealing with justice itself here, justice personified. Dont fear that you will get ripped off. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> No-one has proven that conscience is God-given and that is an entirely different subject.
Don't be sarcastic with me.
I see no justice in condemning people to Hell for all eternity, sending people to Hell does absolutely nothing.
It does not teach the "damned" a lesson, because even if they are sorry they aren't getting out.
It does not teach the "saved" a lesson, because they have already got into Heaven.
And the living just get the same teachings they got before, God doesn't say to everyone "John Smith coveted thy neighbours **** and is now burning in Hell" everytime someone gets sent to Hell.
There is no logic in why God would wish to send people to Hell, unless it was through spite or some other such feeling, in which case I'm not going to worship him as "good".
I feel that sending someone to Hell is neither just nor is it fair, especially if it only because they were not Christians.
It seems to me like a ploy to get people to follow Christianity through fear, rather than through the teachings of Jesus, which themselves are good rules to follow and if everyone did then this world would be a better place.
<!--QuoteBegin--Josiah Bartlet+Sep 9 2003, 03:21 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Josiah Bartlet @ Sep 9 2003, 03:21 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> No-one has proven that conscience is God-given and that is an entirely different subject.
Don't be sarcastic with me. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> The bible, conscience is reffered to "the light that lighteth every man"
He wasnt being sarcastic
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->There is no logic in why God would wish to send people to Hell, unless it was through spite or some other such feeling, in which case I'm not going to worship him as "good".
I feel that sending someone to Hell is neither just nor is it fair, especially if it only because they were not Christians. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
How many times do i have to say this. God is perfect. He cannot stand imperfection. if it wasnt for Jesus, everybody would be going to hell. Having provided a way for us to get to heaven and telling us about it, God has done all he can. yes, he could force everyone to believe in him, but what kind of a relationship would that be? its like trying to have a relationship with a robot.
This is the way this was explained to me.
God has three wills. the will of decree - what he says will happen and therefore will happen, the will of command - what he tells us to do (10 commandments being the most obvious) and the will of desire.
God wants every single human being to go to heaven with him, but becasue of his will of decree, that wont happen. What God says will happen is not always what he wants to happen. got it?
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->There is no logic in why God would wish to send people to Hell, unless it was through spite or some other such feeling, in which case I'm not going to worship him as "good".
I feel that sending someone to Hell is neither just nor is it fair, especially if it only because they were not Christians.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Every law is affirmed by positive and negative means. At first we stress that it is good to obey the law because it makes society stable.
But ultimately, what makes people not steal and not murder their neighbour? The credible threat of the state to hunt them down with their police and throw them into prison.
Likewise, when eternity is at stake, the threat of punishment must be credible. Otherwise Hitler, after having served his "term" of 2000 years of incredible pain, will have to be "released" and granted eternal super-natural happiness.
Would that be just? Eternal Fire is God's death penalty; the ultimate threat.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->God has done all he can.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well then God isn't omnipotent.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The bible, conscience is reffered to "the light that lighteth every man"
He wasnt being sarcastic<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
He was: <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->God doesnt show us the error of our ways? Really? Thats what we have the conscience and the Bible for.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> That was a sarcastic comment.
None of you have given me any idea as to how God is omnipotent or all-loving.
You are using our flawed justice system as a basis for God's "justice"
I see no justice in Hell, at all.
If God loves all men, then God would not be able to punish them because of his undying, everlasting love for man, yet as soon as you aren't a Christian you don't get that love anymore.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->How many times do i have to say this. God is perfect. He cannot stand imperfection. if it wasnt for Jesus, everybody would be going to hell. Having provided a way for us to get to heaven and telling us about it, God has done all he can. yes, he could force everyone to believe in him, but what kind of a relationship would that be? its like trying to have a relationship with a robot.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If God can't stand imperfection then he can't be all-powerful.
I'm not asking God to force everyone to believe in him, I never have, you are assuming I am. God could force us to love him, but he doesn't probably because of his all-loving self. So then how can God punish non-Christians out of hand if he gives us the choice?
Hell, it would appear, is there to force one to believe in God.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->QUOTE God has done all he can.
Well then God isn't omnipotent. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Read the rest of it. the only other thing God could do is to force everyone
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->You are using our flawed justice system as a basis for God's "justice" <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That is because its the only thing that we can understand, that we have experience of. Gods justice is not flawed
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->If God loves all men, then God would not be able to punish them because of his undying, everlasting love for man<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There is something called discipline
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I'm not asking God to force everyone to believe in him<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well what <i>are</i> you asking him to do then? Let everybody go to heaven?
<!--QuoteBegin--Z.X. Bogglesteinsky+Sep 9 2003, 04:38 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Z.X. Bogglesteinsky @ Sep 9 2003, 04:38 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->QUOTE God has done all he can.
Well then God isn't omnipotent. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Read the rest of it. the only other thing God could do is to force everyone
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->You are using our flawed justice system as a basis for God's "justice" <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That is because its the only thing that we can understand, that we have experience of. Gods justice is not flawed
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->If God loves all men, then God would not be able to punish them because of his undying, everlasting love for man<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There is something called discipline
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I'm not asking God to force everyone to believe in him<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well what <i>are</i> you asking him to do then? Let everybody go to heaven? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> There is no point discplining someone if they cannot learn from it, its rather unfair to make an example of one so that others do not follow in their path.
Even in our justice system people get time off for good behaviour, but it would seem no matter how much repenting you do in Hell you just stay there so I see no way in which Hell could be a place people are sent by a loving person, let alone an all loving God.
To have all eternity judged on ones behaviour in their lifetime is unfair if you ask me.
And yes I would like God to let everyone into heaven, I am a Universalist.
<!--QuoteBegin--Josiah Bartlet+Sep 9 2003, 06:56 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Josiah Bartlet @ Sep 9 2003, 06:56 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> There is no point discplining someone if they cannot learn from it, its rather unfair to make an example of one so that others do not follow in their path. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> When did that ever happen?
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Even in our justice system people get time off for good behaviour <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Which is why our system is flawed
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->...but it would seem no matter how much repenting you do in Hell you just stay there so I see no way in which Hell could be a place people are sent by a loving person, let alone an all loving God.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Its like i said earlier. He doesnt want to send anybody to hell, but, as he is perfect and you are not, he has no where else to send you
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->To have all eternity judged on ones behaviour in their lifetime is unfair if you ask me. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
God does not judge you on your behaviour, just whether you believe in Jesus as christ or not
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->And yes I would like God to let everyone into heaven, I am a Universalist.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Have a nice life then, because its not going to happen
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->When did that ever happen?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I was under the impression that people were sent to Hell to repent for their evil non believing ways.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Which is why our system is flawed<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I disagree with you there but that is a different thread.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Its like i said earlier. He doesnt want to send anybody to hell, but, as he is perfect and you are not, he has no where else to send you<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
He could make somewhere, where we were taught about God and the teachings of Jesus Christ that could convince all of us, of our own free will that Jesus Christ was son of God and all that, and then we could get to Heaven.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->God does not judge you on your behaviour, just whether you believe in Jesus as christ or not<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Was going by Catholic Faith that time. However it is still wrong to damn someone to Hell for all eternity because they didn't believe in God for their lifetime.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Have a nice life then, because its not going to happen <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> was under the impression that people were sent to Hell to repent for their evil non believing ways.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No. by that thime its too late. they have had their whole life to repent. Hell is their punishment
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->He could make somewhere, where we were taught about God and the teachings of Jesus Christ that could convince all of us, of our own free will that Jesus Christ was son of God and all that, and then we could get to Heaven.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
But he hasn't. Dont ask me why, because i dont know. dont ask him why because its not for you to know
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->However it is still wrong to damn someone to Hell for all eternity because they didn't believe in God for their lifetime.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Says who? You? you are just a blink in time. who are you to question God?
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Says you and your beliefs. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin--Z.X. Bogglesteinsky+Sep 9 2003, 06:43 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Z.X. Bogglesteinsky @ Sep 9 2003, 06:43 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->However it is still wrong to damn someone to Hell for all eternity because they didn't believe in God for their lifetime.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Says who? You? you are just a blink in time. who are you to question God? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> One of his creations whom he gave "free will" and a inquisitive mind to.
I am not here to question God.
I am here to question the Christian belief of God and his nature.
I'm not sure if this back-and-forth is helping us understand your position. Could you perhaps summarize how the Universalists intend to get past John 5:3 or Mark 16:16?
Well the Unitarian Universalists no longer consider themselves a Christian denomination but a religion in their own right.
However, I think that they tend to focus more on the loving God than being damned to Hell, like the Anglicans who don't focus on 1Corinthians 14:34- 35 "Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law. And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church." and so have women [edit]vicars (not priests[/edit] (a new topic all together)
I am a Unitarian Universalist Agnostic, you'd have to ask a UU Christian how they reconcile that issue.
Also I think you got your John 5:3 quote wrong, maybe you meant 3:5 or something.
Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
Blessed are they who mourn, for they shall be comforted.
Blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth.
Blessed are they who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they shall be satisfied.
Blessed are the merciful, for they shall obtain mercy.
Blessed are the pure of heart, for they shall see God.
Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called children of God.
Blessed are they who are persecuted for the sake of righteousness, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven."
Gospel of Matthew 5:3-10
Matt. 23:37
"Jerusalem!, Jerusalem..how often would have I have gathered you under MY wings, just like a mother hen would gather her chicks...but you would not hear MY cry...no you would not hear MY cry..."
Do you realize what this means? Imagine Jesus standing before Jesrusalem, knowing the fate that awaited before him, suddenly get on his knees, rub his face in the ground, and cry this out.
God loves us so much, God knows our problems and sins, he weeps with us, the sin, that very barrier between God and us.
We don't have the right to question God's authority and because of the sin we are born with, God cannot be with us. The kingdom of God is in us all, people ask, "where is God, this God of yours," the problem is we haven't "searched" for him. "God works in mysterious ways."
"We love Him because He first loved us."-1 John 4:19 "For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God." --Romans 3:23 ""For the wages of sin is death." --Romans 6:23
The idea of an all-loving God, is an idea that has gained popular momentum in the recent past. People can't grasp the fact that some people will and go to a hell; they want to believe that there is only heaven and everyone goes to this happy land.
Lets say God gave us no freedom, visualise that he didn't give adam and eve a choice in the garden of Eden. It would be a, "Alright, it is me, God in the form, now believe in me." In my opinion, the reason why God gave us freedom is so that we could worship him freely.
Never question God's authority, especially when God has infinite IQ and could and if wanted to, make a world designed to make humans suffer horrible deaths and relive them again and again.
Hmmm, God is sure weird, his ways are sometimes inconceivable.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Never question God's authority, especially when God has infinite IQ and could and if wanted to, make a world designed to make humans suffer horrible deaths and relive them again and again.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well I'm certainly gald no-one questioned the Divine Right of Charles I to rule England without Parliament.
Or that no-one would question the authority of the President of the United States when he does things, because he could destroy the Earth if he didn't happen to like it.
Just because you believe God is all-powerful does not mean that you should not be able to question his judgements, and if it did then God is giving you no choice.
"Damned are those who were unfortunate enough not to here of my teachings of Jesus Christ, but don't worry my father works in mysterious ways"
"Damned are those who were brought up to believe a different religion"
God moves in mysterious ways - quite frankly the biggest cop-out cause going.
If the wisdom of man is foolishness to God, then God should have done a better job so that our wisdom leads us to him.
This is becoming a "which concept of god is right" argument; I think any concept of god is wrong, so, well I guess I'm not really in the conversation anymore. bye folks :o
<!--QuoteBegin--Josiah Bartlet+Sep 10 2003, 01:27 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Josiah Bartlet @ Sep 10 2003, 01:27 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> If the wisdom of man is foolishness to God, then God should have done a better job so that our wisdom leads us to him. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> but there is only one way to God, through Jesus Christ. Wisdom cant help at all
<!--QuoteBegin--Z.X. Bogglesteinsky+Sep 10 2003, 02:39 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Z.X. Bogglesteinsky @ Sep 10 2003, 02:39 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> but there is only one way to God, through Jesus Christ. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> And that is where people beg to differ.
<!--QuoteBegin--Mart+Sep 10 2003, 01:20 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Mart @ Sep 10 2003, 01:20 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Can I? Can I? Can I? Awww... PLEASE!? Pretty please? Woo!
*cough*
Dinosaurs.
*chuckle* <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> U ARE JUST A BLINK IN THE EYES OF DINOSAURS MART, RELIGION IS NOT A SHMORGASBORD FOR YOU TO CHOOSE FROM
<!--QuoteBegin--Z.X. Bogglesteinsky+Sep 10 2003, 05:39 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Z.X. Bogglesteinsky @ Sep 10 2003, 05:39 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--Josiah Bartlet+Sep 10 2003, 01:27 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Josiah Bartlet @ Sep 10 2003, 01:27 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> If the wisdom of man is foolishness to God, then God should have done a better job so that our wisdom leads us to him. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> but there is only one way to God, through Jesus Christ. Wisdom cant help at all <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Meh.
The way your putting it, makes god seem like a bit of an elitist...
"Yeah, you can only get into heaven. But only if you like my son."
I don't have any religion, I just live life the way I want too... if your god has a problem with that... well.. tough. He's meant to be all forgiving and what-not... Yet according to you even if I am a wonderful and kind person yet I don't recognise Jesus before the time of my death, I'm screwed. What happens if there is a non-christian, but he dies before he conforms to the practices of christianity? Will god save him even if he's a good person.... What happens if Christianity ISN'T the proper relegion your meant to be following? What then? You'll feel like a right idiot when you get judged by Buddha... ;p
*shrugs* Just let people live their lives the way they want too. No biggie. Just don't be intolerant to their way of life. That's all.
I am of the belief that any sin is forgivable by God (or whatever your almighty power is). I am of the belief that if God does exist, his/her ways and methods of judgement are beyond human comprehension. The Bible, Koran, Torah, or whatever holy book you read from has the fallibility of being written by humans, translated by humans, and ultimately converted into human ideas by humans. Whether or not a diety did in fact instruct the humans to write what they did doesn't wholly matter to me as languages/meanings/definitions have evolved. Therefore, I've yet to see a proof that God is infallible as has been attempted a few times in this thread as well as answering the topic question and saying
I am of the belief that God will forgive your sins if you believe him/her to do so. I don't believe I can murder 100 people and say "I'm sorry God" and expect to be forgiven unless I truly mean it.
I like this quote cause it illustrates my next point <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Hmmm, God is sure weird, his ways are sometimes inconceivable.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ultimately, I am of the belief that any of God's thoughts/feelings/actions/influence or lack thereof on just about any topic can not be truly answered for we are all humans and not God. And his ways are quite obviously beyond human comprehension. When responding to posts on the topic of God, remember we are all human. None of us are dieties. None of us are God, or have a surefire way of quoting God unless he/she spoke directly to you (very hard to prove too). Therefore, try to make some sense of your arguments based on fact and not beliefs (I already broke this rule <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->).
Comments
What really just makes me want to burst out laughing whilst at the same time crying is that you poor people actually think of yourselves as entirely worthless. You've embraced a belief system where you all consider yourselves the lowest forms of life in the universe and believe that you have to spend your entire life making up for it.
Man, you guys on anti-depressants? I know I would be.
Let's say God exists. Let's also say the conditions exist that a) God loves us, and that b) he gave us free choice, because what kind of love is it if you force something on someone?
So. He creates us (humans), with free choice as a given. As part of this choice, we can either do what he wants of us, whatever that may be, and wind up with him for eternity OR we can ignore him and be sent 'away' from him.
If I remember correctly, to be away from God at that point (death?) is eternal suffering (fire & brimstone, whatever. let's just say it sucks hardcore.) .
So. Would a loving, all-powerful(?) being even RISK us to have a relatively short existance doing whatever, and possibly end up suffering for *eternity*?
Marine01: (sorry, not sure how to do Quotes properly) "God created us perfect, and then gave us the ability to make a choice."
Perfect? If I was created 'perfect' I certainly wouldn't choose to change, especially if there's risk (Hell) involved.
"So please, stop saying that God sends people to hell. People choose to go to hell, simply because they reject God."
So basically, do or die. It's not a CHOICE; it's not like they go "Hmm, Heaven or Hell.. I think I'll try Hell, see what it's like." It's the result of being given only two options, and either being unable or unwilling to go along with one, so they're forced to accept the results of the other.
Twex: "Given that God is the wisest of judges, it is reasonable to assume that a soul which died in original sin but without mortal sin will be subjected to a different kind of punishment than a soul stained by the gravest of sins"
Forgive me if I misunderstand, I'm assuming this is in response to the "where unbaptized children go" thought. Anyway, so this child, which hasn't done ANYTHING wrong, is going to be punished either way?
If I were God I would have a better afterlife than just "Perfect people go to Heaven, everyone else goes to Hell"
I would never be able to send anyone to Hell, especially for all eternity. To me that is just wrong, people make mistakes - I'd try and show them where the went wrong in their life not just "You were a non-Christian, feel my wrath in Hell!"
I feel that the view that non-Christians go to Hell is extremely wrong, seriously offensive, immoral and should not be condoned. Its an extremly blinkered view of the world, coming from very little actual proof.
If my feelings are wrong, I most certainly do not wish to be right.
The worlds population is around 6 billion (if I remember correctly using the American billion (10^9)not the British billion(10^12)
The number of Christians in the world is over one billion (according to the BBC) and two billion (according to <a href='http://www.adherents.com/Religions_By_Adherents.html' target='_blank'>here</a>)
Assuming (a very big assumption) that all these Christians still believe in the Christain faith and our active Christians that means that between 1/6th and 1/3rd of the worlds population go to Heaven.
That leaves (at the very least) 2/3rds of the worlds population to go to Hell, which seems to me like God is failing or at least Jesus' teachings are.
And yes, God does risk that happening, if he takes away risk, he takes away choice. So why did God make us in the first place? That'll be my first question when I see him. I have a suspicion he had a good reason.
I think perfect was a poor choice of words on my part. Perhaps sinless is getting a little closer to where I was aiming.
Only God is perfect, and he created humans sinless in the beginning.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->It's the result of being given only two options, and either being unable or unwilling to go along with one, so they're forced to accept the results of the other. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
They are not forced to do anything. Nothing is forced upon them. They may choose to ignore the consequence of their choice ie eternal separation from God, but the choice is still theirs.
As for children being punished - they aint. Children who havent yet reached the age of understanding go straight to God.
Josiah, I feel my theory on Hell covers pretty much most of your arguement. God doesnt blast you with his wrath, as he should, he instead simply sends you were you choose to go - a place without him.
Oh and Ryo, strange that you think we should be on vallium or something, all the Christians I know are really happy. Sure we admit that we are miserable specks compared to God, but we have an all powerful being that loves us and is deeply interested about everything that happens to us. That gives me the warm fuzzies.
Yes. It is explicitly clear that without baptism, there is no salvation (John 3:5). This was confirmed by the Council of Trent in infallible definition. Unbaptized souls suffer from original sin, and every sin carries its punishment.
However, it must be stressed that thinking of Hell as a singular, homogeneous place is far too simplistic. Even we, in our imperfect justice system, know of many different grades between "not guilty" and "capital punishment". How many more will the perfect judge know?
The casual meaning of Hell refers only to its sub-category reserved for the truly wicked, the Eternal Fire. You can trust God to send there only those who deserve it without doubt. I cannot think of a God so cruel that he would send children there whose only fault it was that they died with Adam's curse still on their souls. Surely, their afterlife, although not in the Kingdom of Heaven, will nonetheless be quite joyful. Being without the burden of the flesh will hopefully outweigh the pain of loss which all inhabitants of Hell, who are denied the beatific vision of God forever, have to endure.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I still don't get how Christians can hold the belief that God is all-loving when he sends people to Hell.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What does it mean to be all-loving? If you have ever visited an anti-authoritan kindergarden, you will agree that it cannot mean being all-forgiving. If everything is forgiven, no rule truly matters, and chaos ensues.
Perfect love requires the impeccable balance of mercy <i>and</i> justice. God ensures that no transgression of the law will ever go unpunished, yet still, no punishment is too cruel to endure and no restitution too high to pay.
I didn't say he had to forgive everything right off the bat, he should, however, be able to show people the error of their ways but God doesn't appear to love us enough for that so he just sends you to Hell.
As for what Twex said - amen. Dont forget we are dealing with justice itself here, justice personified. Dont fear that you will get ripped off.
I'm getting the hell out of this thread and I ain't coming back. Keep your religion, I've seen more than enough to convince me a thousand times over that my decision to abandom Christianty was one of the best decisions of my life.
As for what Twex said - amen. Dont forget we are dealing with justice itself here, justice personified. Dont fear that you will get ripped off. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No-one has proven that conscience is God-given and that is an entirely different subject.
Don't be sarcastic with me.
I see no justice in condemning people to Hell for all eternity, sending people to Hell does absolutely nothing.
It does not teach the "damned" a lesson, because even if they are sorry they aren't getting out.
It does not teach the "saved" a lesson, because they have already got into Heaven.
And the living just get the same teachings they got before, God doesn't say to everyone "John Smith coveted thy neighbours **** and is now burning in Hell" everytime someone gets sent to Hell.
There is no logic in why God would wish to send people to Hell, unless it was through spite or some other such feeling, in which case I'm not going to worship him as "good".
I feel that sending someone to Hell is neither just nor is it fair, especially if it only because they were not Christians.
It seems to me like a ploy to get people to follow Christianity through fear, rather than through the teachings of Jesus, which themselves are good rules to follow and if everyone did then this world would be a better place.
Don't be sarcastic with me. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
The bible, conscience is reffered to "the light that lighteth every man"
He wasnt being sarcastic
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->There is no logic in why God would wish to send people to Hell, unless it was through spite or some other such feeling, in which case I'm not going to worship him as "good".
I feel that sending someone to Hell is neither just nor is it fair, especially if it only because they were not Christians.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
How many times do i have to say this. God is perfect. He cannot stand imperfection. if it wasnt for Jesus, everybody would be going to hell. Having provided a way for us to get to heaven and telling us about it, God has done all he can. yes, he could force everyone to believe in him, but what kind of a relationship would that be? its like trying to have a relationship with a robot.
This is the way this was explained to me.
God has three wills. the will of decree - what he says will happen and therefore will happen, the will of command - what he tells us to do (10 commandments being the most obvious) and the will of desire.
God wants every single human being to go to heaven with him, but becasue of his will of decree, that wont happen. What God says will happen is not always what he wants to happen. got it?
I feel that sending someone to Hell is neither just nor is it fair, especially if it only because they were not Christians.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Every law is affirmed by positive and negative means. At first we stress that it is good to obey the law because it makes society stable.
But ultimately, what makes people not steal and not murder their neighbour? The credible threat of the state to hunt them down with their police and throw them into prison.
Likewise, when eternity is at stake, the threat of punishment must be credible. Otherwise Hitler, after having served his "term" of 2000 years of incredible pain, will have to be "released" and granted eternal super-natural happiness.
Would that be just? Eternal Fire is God's death penalty; the ultimate threat.
Well then God isn't omnipotent.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The bible, conscience is reffered to "the light that lighteth every man"
He wasnt being sarcastic<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
He was: <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->God doesnt show us the error of our ways? Really? Thats what we have the conscience and the Bible for.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> That was a sarcastic comment.
None of you have given me any idea as to how God is omnipotent or all-loving.
You are using our flawed justice system as a basis for God's "justice"
I see no justice in Hell, at all.
If God loves all men, then God would not be able to punish them because of his undying, everlasting love for man, yet as soon as you aren't a Christian you don't get that love anymore.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->How many times do i have to say this. God is perfect. He cannot stand imperfection. if it wasnt for Jesus, everybody would be going to hell. Having provided a way for us to get to heaven and telling us about it, God has done all he can. yes, he could force everyone to believe in him, but what kind of a relationship would that be? its like trying to have a relationship with a robot.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If God can't stand imperfection then he can't be all-powerful.
I'm not asking God to force everyone to believe in him, I never have, you are assuming I am. God could force us to love him, but he doesn't probably because of his all-loving self. So then how can God punish non-Christians out of hand if he gives us the choice?
Hell, it would appear, is there to force one to believe in God.
God has done all he can.
Well then God isn't omnipotent.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Read the rest of it. the only other thing God could do is to force everyone
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->You are using our flawed justice system as a basis for God's "justice"
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That is because its the only thing that we can understand, that we have experience of. Gods justice is not flawed
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->If God loves all men, then God would not be able to punish them because of his undying, everlasting love for man<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There is something called discipline
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I'm not asking God to force everyone to believe in him<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well what <i>are</i> you asking him to do then? Let everybody go to heaven?
God has done all he can.
Well then God isn't omnipotent.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Read the rest of it. the only other thing God could do is to force everyone
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->You are using our flawed justice system as a basis for God's "justice"
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That is because its the only thing that we can understand, that we have experience of. Gods justice is not flawed
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->If God loves all men, then God would not be able to punish them because of his undying, everlasting love for man<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There is something called discipline
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I'm not asking God to force everyone to believe in him<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well what <i>are</i> you asking him to do then? Let everybody go to heaven? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
There is no point discplining someone if they cannot learn from it, its rather unfair to make an example of one so that others do not follow in their path.
Even in our justice system people get time off for good behaviour, but it would seem no matter how much repenting you do in Hell you just stay there so I see no way in which Hell could be a place people are sent by a loving person, let alone an all loving God.
To have all eternity judged on ones behaviour in their lifetime is unfair if you ask me.
And yes I would like God to let everyone into heaven, I am a Universalist.
When did that ever happen?
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Even in our justice system people get time off for good behaviour <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Which is why our system is flawed
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->...but it would seem no matter how much repenting you do in Hell you just stay there so I see no way in which Hell could be a place people are sent by a loving person, let alone an all loving God.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Its like i said earlier. He doesnt want to send anybody to hell, but, as he is perfect and you are not, he has no where else to send you
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->To have all eternity judged on ones behaviour in their lifetime is unfair if you ask me.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
God does not judge you on your behaviour, just whether you believe in Jesus as christ or not
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->And yes I would like God to let everyone into heaven, I am a Universalist.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Have a nice life then, because its not going to happen
I was under the impression that people were sent to Hell to repent for their evil non believing ways.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Which is why our system is flawed<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I disagree with you there but that is a different thread.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Its like i said earlier. He doesnt want to send anybody to hell, but, as he is perfect and you are not, he has no where else to send you<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
He could make somewhere, where we were taught about God and the teachings of Jesus Christ that could convince all of us, of our own free will that Jesus Christ was son of God and all that, and then we could get to Heaven.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->God does not judge you on your behaviour, just whether you believe in Jesus as christ or not<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Was going by Catholic Faith that time. However it is still wrong to damn someone to Hell for all eternity because they didn't believe in God for their lifetime.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Have a nice life then, because its not going to happen <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Says you and your beliefs.
No. by that thime its too late. they have had their whole life to repent. Hell is their punishment
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->He could make somewhere, where we were taught about God and the teachings of Jesus Christ that could convince all of us, of our own free will that Jesus Christ was son of God and all that, and then we could get to Heaven.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
But he hasn't. Dont ask me why, because i dont know. dont ask him why because its not for you to know
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->However it is still wrong to damn someone to Hell for all eternity because they didn't believe in God for their lifetime.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Says who? You? you are just a blink in time. who are you to question God?
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Says you and your beliefs. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Says me and the Bible
Says who? You? you are just a blink in time. who are you to question God? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
One of his creations whom he gave "free will" and a inquisitive mind to.
I am not here to question God.
I am here to question the Christian belief of God and his nature.
However, I think that they tend to focus more on the loving God than being damned to Hell, like the Anglicans who don't focus on 1Corinthians 14:34- 35 "Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law. And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church." and so have women [edit]vicars (not priests[/edit] (a new topic all together)
I am a Unitarian Universalist Agnostic, you'd have to ask a UU Christian how they reconcile that issue.
Also I think you got your John 5:3 quote wrong, maybe you meant 3:5 or something.
for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
Blessed are they who mourn,
for they shall be comforted.
Blessed are the meek,
for they shall inherit the earth.
Blessed are they who hunger and thirst for righteousness,
for they shall be satisfied.
Blessed are the merciful,
for they shall obtain mercy.
Blessed are the pure of heart,
for they shall see God.
Blessed are the peacemakers,
for they shall be called children of God.
Blessed are they who are persecuted for the sake of righteousness,
for theirs is the kingdom of heaven."
Gospel of Matthew 5:3-10
Matt. 23:37
"Jerusalem!, Jerusalem..how often would have I have gathered you under MY wings, just like a mother hen would gather her chicks...but you would not hear MY cry...no you would not hear MY cry..."
Do you realize what this means? Imagine Jesus standing before Jesrusalem, knowing the fate that awaited before him, suddenly get on his knees, rub his face in the ground, and cry this out.
God loves us so much, God knows our problems and sins, he weeps with us, the sin, that very barrier between God and us.
We don't have the right to question God's authority and because of the sin we are born with, God cannot be with us. The kingdom of God is in us all, people ask, "where is God, this God of yours," the problem is we haven't "searched" for him. "God works in mysterious ways."
"We love Him because He first loved us."-1 John 4:19
"For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God." --Romans 3:23
""For the wages of sin is death." --Romans 6:23
The idea of an all-loving God, is an idea that has gained popular momentum in the recent past. People can't grasp the fact that some people will and go to a hell; they want to believe that there is only heaven and everyone goes to this happy land.
Lets say God gave us no freedom, visualise that he didn't give adam and eve a choice in the garden of Eden. It would be a, "Alright, it is me, God in the form, now believe in me." In my opinion, the reason why God gave us freedom is so that we could worship him freely.
Never question God's authority, especially when God has infinite IQ and could and if wanted to, make a world designed to make humans suffer horrible deaths and relive them again and again.
Hmmm, God is sure weird, his ways are sometimes inconceivable.
Well I'm certainly gald no-one questioned the Divine Right of Charles I to rule England without Parliament.
Or that no-one would question the authority of the President of the United States when he does things, because he could destroy the Earth if he didn't happen to like it.
Just because you believe God is all-powerful does not mean that you should not be able to question his judgements, and if it did then God is giving you no choice.
"Damned are those who were unfortunate enough not to here of my teachings of Jesus Christ, but don't worry my father works in mysterious ways"
"Damned are those who were brought up to believe a different religion"
God moves in mysterious ways - quite frankly the biggest cop-out cause going.
If the wisdom of man is foolishness to God, then God should have done a better job so that our wisdom leads us to him.
but there is only one way to God, through Jesus Christ. Wisdom cant help at all
but there is only one way to God, through Jesus Christ. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
And that is where people beg to differ.
*cough*
Dinosaurs.
*chuckle*
*cough*
Dinosaurs.
*chuckle* <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
U ARE JUST A BLINK IN THE EYES OF DINOSAURS MART, RELIGION IS NOT A SHMORGASBORD FOR YOU TO CHOOSE FROM
ohohoh
/me runs
but there is only one way to God, through Jesus Christ. Wisdom cant help at all <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Meh.
The way your putting it, makes god seem like a bit of an elitist...
"Yeah, you can only get into heaven. But only if you like my son."
I don't have any religion, I just live life the way I want too... if your god has a problem with that... well.. tough. He's meant to be all forgiving and what-not...
Yet according to you even if I am a wonderful and kind person yet I don't recognise Jesus before the time of my death, I'm screwed.
What happens if there is a non-christian, but he dies before he conforms to the practices of christianity? Will god save him even if he's a good person....
What happens if Christianity ISN'T the proper relegion your meant to be following? What then?
You'll feel like a right idiot when you get judged by Buddha... ;p
*shrugs* Just let people live their lives the way they want too. No biggie. Just don't be intolerant to their way of life. That's all.
I am of the belief that any sin is forgivable by God (or whatever your almighty power is).
I am of the belief that if God does exist, his/her ways and methods of judgement are beyond human comprehension.
The Bible, Koran, Torah, or whatever holy book you read from has the fallibility of being written by humans, translated by humans, and ultimately converted into human ideas by humans. Whether or not a diety did in fact instruct the humans to write what they did doesn't wholly matter to me as languages/meanings/definitions have evolved.
Therefore, I've yet to see a proof that God is infallible as has been attempted a few times in this thread as well as answering the topic question and saying
I am of the belief that God will forgive your sins if you believe him/her to do so. I don't believe I can murder 100 people and say "I'm sorry God" and expect to be forgiven unless I truly mean it.
I like this quote cause it illustrates my next point
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Hmmm, God is sure weird, his ways are sometimes inconceivable.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ultimately, I am of the belief that any of God's thoughts/feelings/actions/influence or lack thereof on just about any topic can not be truly answered for we are all humans and not God. And his ways are quite obviously beyond human comprehension.
When responding to posts on the topic of God, remember we are all human. None of us are dieties. None of us are God, or have a surefire way of quoting God unless he/she spoke directly to you (very hard to prove too). Therefore, try to make some sense of your arguments based on fact and not beliefs (I already broke this rule <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->).