I love the surreal mental contortions religious people can get themselves into.
Many thanks from a heartily amused atheist. Keep it up! <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
Remember there is a difference between Religion and Doctrine OK . Religion is your personal relationship with God - The way you practice your faith - nothing more.
Doctrine is the rules of your religion - the LAWS - the defining elements - Doctrine more than anything is what suffers from the interpretation of man.
Now... It states in the Bible that if you have been given the information and then knowingly turn away then you are responsible - This addresses Infinitums question about the person who does not have the information will you be deemed innocent? Yes. ( but Love is a common principle that exists without Christianity or the knowledge of - so further discussion is needed). Same holds true in real life. If your mother is dead and I do not know, or have not heard that she has died and I say to you something to the effect of "Hey how is your mother doing"? I cannot be responsible for the end result there. I cannot be damned so to speak for not knowing. moreover I shouldn't.
As far as forgiveable sins and NON forgivable sins. One must take into account the culpability of the sin. If I kill a man - is it a sin? sure. am I culpable? Will I be doomed to suffer the fate of a sinner if I killed the man in order to protect my family - like my 16 month old son and wife? NO I am not and that is direct information from the Bishop of my local Diocese. There are Mortal Sins and Non Mortal Sins.
Some basic examples on NON mortal sins: Lying, theft, coveting, disrespect, Now these are forgivable - BUT if you keep doing it over and over and you know you are wrong and have the notion that you can at any time just say Jesus forgive me.... It then become blatent disrespect to God and Abuse of the system technically. Therefore you will be judged on this accordingly.
Some basic examples of Mortal sins are: Murder ( not killing ) Rape, Adultery, Suicide. Violence against a person or another of Gods creatures... Succumbing to Addiction is also considered a Mortal Sin. These here are subsections of the noted 7 deadly sins.(see below)
Murder is not forgivable - Killing a person in self defense or like a Military man going over to a foreign country and killing a person can be forgiven - You are not culpable for these. This is in defense, whether it be of country and it's people or yourself or to defend a loved one where the person would be killing you or them. Killing itself is not a sin - it is the Selfishness that is behind murder or the blatent disregard of life or that the victim according to the culprit has NO RIGHTS to life - that is not forgivable.
Rape - Well now Sex as a whole is something that is to be shared by people who have come before God to sanctify their union - They have made a commitment to themselves and to God stating that they will be devoting themselves to this one person. - Sex is viewed as GREAT COOL AND OK because it helps to propogate the species and therefore creates a new being(s) for you to share Gods word and Gods creations with. Which just happen to be YOU and your chosen partner before God, as well as the earth and everything else. I would be so bold to even say that as long as the 2 are commited and have professed this and acted accordingly before God - that regardless of Church involvement it would be considered glory to God. This is just my personal opinion though. Rape is disrespect and defilement of the body, both the Rapists and the victim. The body is Gods creation. If you abuse it in a knowingly selfish manner it is not forgivable. The Victim is not Culpable because it was not their choice - even if they gave up fighting and let the Rape happen - That alone is a defensive move in order to prevent further harm or even from being killed.
Adultery is Knowingly defiling a union that has been sanctified by God - If you bothered to get married then you friggin know better!!! Not forgivable.
Suicide is the same as Murder, but worse - no matter what the reason... Basically. It is because you are a creation of God and have been given the responsibility of yourself and possible others. In dealing with the notion that the committer of said suicide has lost all hope - It basically states that you do not believe in God anymore and that he is NOT there for you and that you think that he can't help you. Which is wrong. You must believe that there are reasons for the position you are in. God said - I will not suffer you to be tempted above what you are able to handle - but will with each temptation provide a way for escape. Remember what doesn't kill us makes us stronger. Sometimes the most difficult of times is in design to strengthen and fortify us and teach us how to overcome that situation again. So BUCK UP!
Violence against Self, another human and the like ( Gods Creations ) is NOT forgivable - It's difficult to believe that this needs further explanation - but for those out of the loop on this. Read on to see what I say about Love and Good manners?
Addiction - basically you are giving up - God gave you the power to make choices and you have chosen to defile your body and put it into a state in which it is not clear and unblemished - You cannot fully function in the state in which you were created if you are allowing a substance to take part in the dictation and control of your actions. Also if the substance is harmful and will cause injury to the body in which God has Leased to you while you are here. It's not forgivable EVEN smoking TOBACCO if not moderated and is an Addiction - It kills you - It robs you of Enjoyable YEARS of your life - The Caring for your feable Carcass while you suffer from it's effects then causes undo hardship on your loved ones. it's a SIN and in most cases a darned stupid and selfish one at that. Because you know the Truth about it, yet you continue to choose to remain powerless to change it.
Take into Consideration the 7 Deadly SINS - Greed, Lust, Pride, Envy, Sloth, Gluttony, Wrath - Please bear in mind that these, if partaken in willingly, and frequently have the facades of just being OK in other forms and deceipt is allowed to perforate your faith. When you have full knowledge of God, Christ, and the Holy spirit and Allah and you still commit these - it is NOT LOVE = Not forgivable
Now as far as entry into heaven. It says in the Bible that admittance into heaven is based upon an entry in the Book of life. It takes more than just acknowledging the existance of Jesus as the son of God. The bottom line is the teachings of Christ. If you acknowledge him being the son of God then Surely his teachings would have to be acknowledged and followed. This all boils down to LOVE. All of the ten commandments boil down to LOVE and basically good manners. If you love God - You believe - You love Jesus - You believe - You then know that his teachings are the key.
To deal with this --"I still don't get how Christians can hold the belief that God is all-loving when he sends people to Hell." as stated by Josh Bartlet
GOD doesn't send you to HELL - YOU CHOOSE by actions and Deeds. Anything and Everything you do, if it is against GOD - YOU have written your OWN ticket. remember YOU have the CHOICE. If you Live by the "Rules" than you have as well chosen LIFE rather than Death.
You see God has made some mistakes in the deliverance of his message over time - that's why he has done these "Do overs" like the flood , Sodom and Gomorrah etc. etc. He has created a place called "heaven" where he don't want any RIF RAFF! Your life here and how you live it will determine if you earn a place there. IF you don't, it's because you didn't care - didn't love God and Rather choose to be an Ill mannered fucktard and treat people like crap while you are on Earth. You see God figured out the best way to Teach you how to live as a human on earth and EARN your place in Heaven was to come to Earth as a Human and teach us by living the example. To show you that it can be done. That's how much he loved you! and then he allowed Jew and Gentile alike entrance into heaven with the Crucifixion of his son ( God and Jesus are one in the Same - whover believes in that shall not perish ) Which was his promise to you. The crucifixion is meaningless without the ressurection. It is this very same ressurection that we will all go through when the time comes. What better way to teach someone that by coming down to your level and simply showing how it's done. You had to be shown in order to believe.
So yes, it is your behavior and deeds in accordance with Christ's teachings that garner a favorable entry into the Book of Life; Therefore entry to Heaven.
If I have love for you as a neighbor and would care to look out for you as I would myself - Am I going to Rob, Kill, covet etc etc? NO! = The same holds true if I have good manners.
I saw COPS on TV the other night and an LAPD Sgt. said "crime all boils down to manners". If you have good manners you aren't going to be the one knocking the old woman upside her head to steal her 78$ so you can buy and smoke a Rock and then Rape her for your 30 seconds of selfish orgasm. Right?
On the forgiveness issue - from the sermon on the mount - where Jesus taught these fundamentals....
People always get mixed up in forgiveness. OK - so someone comes along and Rapes your wife. Forgiveness from you and her is not for the Rapist alone. It is a way to free yourself from being under the burden of letting it RULE YOUR LIFE. it's not a "scott free - your all set" type of thing. YOu have to seperate JUDGEMENT from your forgiveness. The Rapist will be judged. But forgiving him is the way for you to allow yourself to be free from harbouring in the muck and mire that accompanies NOT forgiving. Personally it's still not an easy concept and TIME will always be a factor.
But remember If that Jerk had good manners and had LOVE, he would not have sought to rape your wife - moreover he would be inclined to maybe paint your fence or babysit your kids.
In short - We are all here to make sure that each of us make it. If you don't care, you won't make it, and probably don't understand and/or agree with my post. If you do care... well chances are you understand this post and agree.
All in all just LOVE if you erase religion and the like from my post you still come up with a pretty good way to share what is here for us. how to fix our mistakes and how to live our lives, Your life... All of us together. and move on if we can Tow the line.
PEACE.
I am born protestant - catholic by marriage - HL community supporter by trade - Father at home - Realist by heart - prefer just making sense of it all and to find out what is next without mucking it all up.
<!--QuoteBegin--OFM+Sep 10 2003, 07:37 PM --></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (OFM @ Sep 10 2003, 07:37 PM )</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->You see God has made some mistakes in the deliverance of his message over time <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I wouldn't go as far to say that God screwed up, people screwed it up.
And as far as things go, It is only God who can determine who is wrong and right and what can't or can be forgiven.
Well I didn't go so far to say "God screwed up", you did... You quoted me and nowhere in my re-posted "qoute" do I say it.... Hmmm
Yes people screwed up, but remember... You have to stop and consider the truth behind it - He was trying to deliver a message all along that came at a time when we were believing in Zeus too. and all the while we acted up on him...Hmmm. God really couldn't have known how we would take his delivery of The Word. We had been making up stories about why and what and it's reason for existing for centuries. God tried a few times throughout the Old Testament to deliver his Word and make it stick. So he used his power to start over and fix his mistakes when things didn't pan out? he wiped the planet clean right? he must have tossed up all the papers from his desk pulled out his hair and flushed a toilet somewhere. Are you so sure the people washed away were, or were not mistakes either by their creation, dying or existing, Was God frustrated in his decision to wash the world clean and start anew? was God having frustration a mistake? Did he feel he could have acted sooner or another way and saved more lives by killing less of them? There came a time when the old laws became a mistake Eye for an Eye often could kill you if you didn't get care back then. So when God decided to allow Gentile and Jew as well as all others if they pass the tests of love as delivered by Christ his son - basically being told the New Rules. The Old Rules had to Go and the NEW ones had to come in - don't you remember Eye for an Eye? Now tell of Gods mistakes. He's made em he fixed them and gave everyone the chance to join him if we can stop making them. You may be interested to know that a true Muslim believes in all 3 The Torah or Talmud, the Injil or The Bible and Christ. and the Koran which is OMHO further knowledge about specifics and augments or fixes to the laws of Moses time through and told to Mohamed - another prophet of God( forgive spellings)- and how to simply get it done. If we are to believe in The Bibles -Talmud section and added more books that are available. We are IT - The First of kind. Angels had been given lordship over realms and reason. God wanted to create something big - You and ME in his image - If we are in his, then surely he is in ours - we are of the same makeup physically emotionally and spiritually and when we make it he tells us that he will fill in all the blanks and unlock all our deserved potential - This Loving creation must have learned lessons on the way as told by all three books as the TRUTH. He has the power to create. At each moment in life's creation, mistakes happen and new lives die at birth - God takes back what is his. what would you do if it was your mistake Do you Forgive God when your child dies at birth? do you love God enough to do that. He decided to take it back because he did not want you to be suffered above what you ( and child) are able if escape was not possible in his promise - you must know he will take you - logically it seems the only real way GOd can justify death to any of us at this day and age.
is Satan a Mistake? Satan only exists because God allows him to do so and he also allows temptation to take place. You know God is an alright dude. he does his best to test us well and make sure we are top notch before it comes time to take us home.
In the Three is the story of us and our Relationship with God - in the three you can plainly see where both sides fail to meet eye to eye and throughout God fixes the way in which he tries to deliver the message because at the time of Christ Small local miracles to peeps after the time of Moses passing were not even enough to keep convincing the people. Many things such as the population growing and spreading as well as other influences for instance all mattered for the spreading of The Word. More of us had been missing the message from the days of Old - His original perfect beings we failing. Jew? and Gentile - Old testament with its Torah essence would have you believe that the Gentile was going nowhere. God must have made a mistake in judgement and said Hey ok one last straw I love you guys see - so here I come - Hmm how to I pull it off.... Hmmm Ok I'll use my power of the Holy Spirit I have and become man in the form of my son and show you. and if you don't love me enough to try your hardest on the test I can't let you in. So "mistake" may be the wrong word all the time. and I do mean period. please forgive
Our job is now to show God he did the right thing so he doesn't think he made another mistake with allowing us to have lives. Remember He's just like us and he hurts too when we don't love him back. maybe he doesn't even understand how we couldn't
Only now do you know partly - Then, you shall know fully. - God
Maybe Heaven is the Love that God has for us. So that when more of us love God, the bigger his heart grows, so more of us can get in.
You are beautiful.... Yes further in newer teachings, things like the allowance of anger or dissent or lacking the ability to forgive. Some of the 7 sins like Sloth and Envy can play on you physically and spiritually. Anger, even though you do not project can be considered a lesser sin and harmful to your spirit. This and hate or loathing or any time spent on Pondering notions like "would things be different if I had only done that differently"? IMO - you can physically suffer the effects from your state of spirit. Remember you don't just have a soul. If your spirit is poor you cannot conceivably combat the lurkers in the physical domain from setting forth instances of failing health and wellness in full conjunction with your mind, body responsibilities.
These lesser sins are ways for you to learn the lessons of sinning and of the spirits role while you walk the earth.
nutshell kida, in the concept, my Quip is: Who you are is Who you are, and who you may become.
Thanks for your earlier post.
Twex and a few others ( I may edit and add all names after I read more...) you had very insightful and intelligent offerings and I am glad you were here to post.
Those who choose to reject god don't get to be with him after they die. The problem is, there are so many religions that say the same thing, that how do you know which religion to pick? Do you just gotta pick one and hope that you made the right choice? Because otherwise you're going to Hell?
Good Lord, I tremble in fear to think what OFM's full dollar would be if thats only his 2 cents......
Some good points there E-th33p, but I still disagree with the "we cant know what God really wants".
Lets assume their is a God, that he is All powerful, and deeply interested in the human race. What is actually stopping this supposed all powerful deity from creating a book, using humans to do so, making it accurate, and keeping it accurate for thousands of years? Are you saying he cant do that?
You may doubt whether he has, but its entirely possible. I think he has, and I think its the Bible. And thus, I do believe that this God has communicated part of his Will to us, and it is possible to make pretty accurate decisions based upon what you think God wants you to do.
And OFM - God doesnt understand us? Therefore he cant be all powerful, therefore he has been lying to us, therefore he isnt perfect, and therefore I doubt everything I had believed about him.
And there dies the Christian religion. Claiming God isnt perfect or somehow faillible doesnt cut the mustard for me anyway.
While your general ideas and views on the subject are sound, i feel you made a few errors.
The whole bit about forgivable and non forgivable sins. There is only one sin that cannot be forgiven - Blaspheming against the Holy Spirit. Any other sin can and will be forgiven. However, just because one sin cannot be forgiven, doesnt mean you wont get into heaven - Christ says that anyone who believes on him shall not perish but have everlasting life.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->You see God has made some mistakes in the deliverance of his message over time <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
God doesnt make mistakes. no question about it
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Our job is now to show God he did the right thing so he doesn't think he made another mistake<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
see above
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Well I didn't go so far to say "God screwed up"<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If you make a mistake, you screw up. its another phrase for the same thing
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->is Satan a Mistake?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No. Does God like him? No. Is God going to one day destroy him and all who follow him? Yes.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->and throughout God fixes the way in which he tries to deliver the message <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Anger, even though you do not project can be considered a lesser sin and harmful to your spirit.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There is nothing wrong with anger, its what you do when you are angry that is wrong. "In your anger, do not sin, do not let the sun go down while you are still angry and do not give the devil a foot-hold"
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->how do you know which religion to pick? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
study them. read thier texts. get as much knowledge about them as possible. analyse them, then decide
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Good Lord, I tremble in fear to think what OFM's full dollar would be if thats only his 2 cents......<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The whole bit about forgivable and non forgivable sins. There is only one sin that cannot be forgiven - Blaspheming against the Holy Spirit. Any other sin can and will be forgiven. However, just because one sin cannot be forgiven, doesnt mean you wont get into heaven - Christ says that anyone who believes on him shall not perish but have everlasting life.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Any other sin can be forgiven -- indeed. But <i>will</i> it be forgiven, automatically, with no further co-operation by the sinner?
Can a Christian, once baptized, become a contract killer, murder for the rest of his life, and still expect to be saved by faith alone? Or does not the fact that he is able to commit such grave sins habitually, that, even if he might profess regret, he only does so with his mouth but not with his actions and not with his heart, indicate that he has distanced himself from God and will not be saved?
Boggle I am sorry but you are wrong. The Roman Catholics and the Greek Orthodox as well as Muslims and other religeous factions that claim to Love the same God All understand the difference between Mortal sins and Non Mortal sins and the bottom line being culpability. Your intentions behind the committing. If you Knowingly Murder a man because you think that you can just ask for forgiveness for it anyway is wrong and you have compounded your sin. you can ask but you will not be forgiven you will be judged and you will pay for it in the fashion that God deems as Equal to your indiscretion. - Simply because - You have decided that Gods Love and his word does not apply to you and has no meaning after originally professing belief and Love for him - Any action like Murder( or other Mortal Sin) with the notion that you can get away with it by merely asking for forgiveness or assuming you will be forgiven once belief and Faith is professed and Christ asked into your heart Then that becomes Blasphemy. It is you stating that you think you have found a flaw in God's Law in order to Commit a Mortal Sin and still get into Heaven. That you can take life that is precious to him and others, created by him - at any time and any number times and merely asking for forgiveness or believing in Christ, you assume you can be let off the hook - That is Blasphemy. He isn't offering us a free ride and we can do whatever - The wages of sin is death - repentance is NO JOKE simply asking for forgiveness or assuming it is automatic is NOT repentance.
You should and will be held accountable for ALL of your actions while you are here - God is Just - but you won't get away with anything if your intention is to pull the wool over God's eyes and Defile his creations with your lameness and foolish assumptions - such Notions are in direct design to undermind God and his Word and that once again is Blasphemy.
REMEMBER Satan assumed the same bullcrap and look at his fate now and what is to come. Satan assumed he could do no wrong and he didn't need God to oversee his deeds or tell him what to do. and he assumed his deeds would go unpunished.
You are also Wrong about God Making mistakes.
Read the Talmud and you tell me if God made mistakes in the Old Testament Law that were not changed in the New Testament.
God has decided that taking an Eye for an Eye is no longer a good idea hence that Law was a mistake If you are married God said in the old testament that if you lust after another woman you need to gouge out your eyes I guess he didn't change that then either. Also if you steal it is that hand alone that is evil and you need to cut it off.
These are all mistakes in the LAW that were changed later on by God therefore eve he must have seen that the Original Laws were a mistake.
God loved us enough to change the original plans jhe had. The notion that JEWS were the only ones to gain admittance. God Made a mistake and changed that in order to allow Gentiles. He must have thought that just allowing JEWS was a mistake or he wouldn't have changed that. Right?
God does understand us - He created us and he says to us that he is Omnipresent, Omniscient and Omnipotent Which means Everywhere at all times, ALl powerfull and and ALL Knowing. He tells us that Nothing we do escapes his understanding and Knowledge. He also tell us that everything is pre-ordained - That simply means that he already Knows what is going to happen what we will choose regardless of freewill. what we choose he already know it and the outcome of the choice.
You need to re-examine your beliefs and decide whether or not they are based on what really makes sense and is Glory to God - or what fits the molds of Christianity or Religion in the doctrines set aside by the Church and the Interpretations of MAN.
If God struggled getting his message across and to have it stick and We faultered as well - One can safely say that God has the rights to change the rules and find a new way to get his message across. Hence FIX what went wrong in prior attempts. He then decided it was best to come down to our level and show us the way by becoming man and teaching us through his words and deeds. Obviously the Old way wasn't working - Simply speaking to someone off in the distance while they were alone in prayer and telling them to Run down the hill and tell everyone was becoming costly. God knows that stuff like that can get you killed. So he came himself so more of us could be saved versus knocked off for being a Loon or claiming to have spoken to God.
You are wrong about Anger. Any emotion if it is negative and unmoderated can adversely affect your spirit and mental well being. and that basic concept has nothing to do with Religion - it is a plain and simple Biological and medical Fact. So allowing such negative and unmoderated emotions to rule your life and control how you react to things and how you treat people and yourself IS harmful. You cannot effectively continue to do God's will if you do not have control over your emotional and mental state. If you do not call on God for help and continue to assume you can manage it all without him it then further becomes another form af blasphemy. Claiming at any point that you do not need God to handle a event , emotion or anything in your life is You claiming the attributes or prerogatives of deity = it is therefore a sin.
Committing Sin knowingly is Not loving God and if you have previously claimed to Love God and know the truth and have heard The Word and then have sinned and acted in such a way that is witness to others as contrary to Loving God it is then simple Blasphemy.
Blasphemy is: An indignity offered to God in words, writing, actions or signs;
Wouldn't you then consider that ANY sin when you Fully know the LAW and about What God has done for you, and you claim to Love him and have called Christ to your heart, Yet you still commit it with the notion you can simply be forgiven by asking or assuming that it is automatic. Wouldn't that be an idignity to God in words, actions, and signs? Therefore Blasphemy?
The further definition is also as simple and applies - Blasphemy is also:
impiously irreverent words actions or signs addressed to, or used in reference to, God; speaking evil of God; also, the act of claiming the attributes or prerogatives of deity.
As I stated to before - to Rhuadin. Religion is just your personal relationship with God. living by the principles of LOVE makes common sense to and is found in most Doctrines and teachings and in civilizations that do not neccesarily have a Labeled God So it really doesn't matter. If you know the truth and Love God you can ask him for guidance and he will surely point you on the path so you can make decisions
The Notion Boggle that one can find Religion in the Texts and choosing one requires reading of said Texts is wrong. The texts only point out Laws and stories as well as Psalms and Gospels ( teachings of faith and hope) designed to help you make decisions throughout lifes many facets in accordance with God's wishes for us.
Doing the right thing and taking care of each other so we can get to the next level just makes sense as far as I am concerned. even if you erase a religion concept.
<!--QuoteBegin--OFM+Sep 11 2003, 04:18 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (OFM @ Sep 11 2003, 04:18 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Boggle I am sorry but you are wrong. The Roman Catholics and the Greek Orthodox as well as Muslims and other religeous factions that claim to Love the same God All understand the difference between Mortal sins and Non Mortal sins and the bottom line being culpability. Your intentions behind the committing. If you Knowingly Murder a man because you think that you can just ask for forgiveness for it anyway is wrong and you have compounded your sin. you can ask but you will not be forgiven you will be judged and you will pay for it in the fashion that God deems as Equal to your indiscretion. - Simply because - You have decided that Gods Love and his word does not apply to you and has no meaning after originally professing belief and Love for him - Any action like Murder( or other Mortal Sin) with the notion that you can get away with it by merely asking for forgiveness or assuming you will be forgiven once belief and Faith is professed and Christ asked into your heart Then that becomes Blasphemy. It is you stating that you think you have found a flaw in God's Law in order to Commit a Mortal Sin and still get into Heaven. That you can take life that is precious to him and others, created by him - at any time and any number times and merely asking for forgiveness or believing in Christ, you assume you can be let off the hook - That is Blasphemy. He isn't offering us a free ride and we can do whatever - The wages of sin is death - repentance is NO JOKE simply asking for forgiveness or assuming it is automatic is NOT repentance.
You should and will be held accountable for ALL of your actions while you are here - God is Just - but you won't get away with anything if your intention is to pull the wool over God's eyes and Defile his creations with your lameness and foolish assumptions - such Notions are in direct design to undermind God and his Word and that once again is Blasphemy.
REMEMBER Satan assumed the same bullcrap and look at his fate now and what is to come. Satan assumed he could do no wrong and he didn't need God to oversee his deeds or tell him what to do. and he assumed his deeds would go unpunished.
God does understand us - He created us and he says to us that he is Omnipresent and Omnipotent Which means Everywhere at all times and ALL Knowing. He tells us that Nothin we do escapes his understanding and Knowledge. He also tell us that everything is pre-ordained - That simply means that he already Knows what is going to happen what we will choose regardless of freewill. what we choose he already know it and the outcome of the choice.
You need to re-examine your beliefs and decide whether or not they are based on what really makes sense and is Glory to God - or what fits the molds of Christianity or Religion in the doctrines set aside by the Church and the Interpretations of MAN.
Committing Sin knowingly is Not loving God and if you have previously claimed to Love God and know the truth and have heard The Word and then have sinned and acted in such a way that is witness to others as contrary to Loving God it is then simple Blasphemy. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> If thats what you believe, Fine. I learnt some time ago not to argue with what others believe.
Your attitude towards sin appears to be based not just on Christianity. Mine is. While i know that sinning is wrong and i do try to aviod it, i also realise that as a human, I fall into sin too many times. However, I also believe that if i come back to God with repentance, i will be forgiven. Myra Hindley, the moors murderer, became a Chirstian while she was in Prison. I believe God forgave her completely
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->You are also Wrong about God Making mistakes.
Read the Talmud and you tell me if God made mistakes in the Old Testament Law that were not changed in the New Testament.
God has decided that taking an Eye for an Eye is no longer a good idea hence that Law was a mistake If you are married God said in the old testament that if you lust after another woman you need to gouge out your eyes I guess he didn't change that then either. Also if you steal it is that hand alone that is evil and you need to cut it off.
These are all mistakes in the LAW that were changed later on by God therefore eve he must have seen that the Original Laws were a mistake. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
They were not mistakes. Jesus taught about them because the pharasees where taking the law much to seriously, when it couldnt help them one bit. (btw, the bit about cutting your hand off is from the new testament. Jesus teaches about it himself :"It is better for you to enter life without a hand than for you to go whole into death" [or something like that])
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->God loved us enough to change the original plans jhe had. The notion that JEWS were the only ones to gain admittance. God Made a mistake and changed that in order to allow Gentiles. He must have thought that just allowing JEWS was a mistake or he wouldn't have changed that. Right? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes, He changed the plan, not becasue they were a mistake but becasue he had opened a way of salvation that is open to everybody
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->he is Omnipresent and Omnipotent Which means Everywhere at all times and ALL Knowing. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Omnipotent actually means all powerful. Omniscient is all knowing. If God is all knowing, HOW CAN HE MAKE A MISTAKE??. Things that we see as changes were planned all along. My parents went away for a week recently, and my attitude to washing up was non-existant. It changed suddenly. Did I make a mistake in not doing it when i had finished eating? you may say so, but I had it all planned. I would wait until the last day and then do it all at once. Just becasue my attitude changes doesnt mean the first one was wrong.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->If God struggled getting his message across and to have it stick and We faultered as well - One can safely say that God has the rights to change the rules and find a new way to get his message across. Hence FIX what went wrong in prior attempts. He then decided it was best to come down to our level and show us the way by becoming man and teaching us through his words and deeds. Obviously the Old way wasn't working - Simply speaking to someone off in the distance while they were alone in prayer and telling them to Run down the hill and tell everyone was becoming costly. God knows that stuff like that can get you killed. So he came himself so more of us could be saved versus knocked off for being a Loon or claiming to have spoken to God. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If God is onmipotent (as you said earlier), how can he struggle to do anything?
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->You are wrong about Anger. Any emotion if it is negative and unmoderated can adversely affect your spirit and mental well being. and that basic concept has nothing to do with Religion - it is a plain and simple Biological and medical Fact. So allowing such negative and unmoderated emotions to rule your life and control how you react to things and how you treat people and yourself IS harmful. You cannot effectively continue to do God's will if you do not have control over your emotional and mental state. If you do not call on God for help and continue to assume you can manage it all without him it then further becomes another form af blasphemy. Claiming at any point that you do not need God to handle a event , emotion or anything in your life is You claiming the attributes or prerogatives of deity = it is therefore a sin.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree with you 100%. A negative, unmoderated emotion can ruin your life, but I didnt say that. There is nothing wrong with anger. Jesus became angry when he threw the traders out of the temple, but his anger was moderated, he didnt sin, which is what I said.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The Notion Boggle that one can find Religion in the Texts and choosing one requires reading of said Texts is wrong. The texts only point out Laws and stories as well as Psalms and Gospels ( teachings of faith and hope) designed to help you make decisions throughout lifes many facets in accordance with God's wishes for us<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So how would you go about choosing a religion, when you are faced with the multitude there are today. wouldnt it be sensible to read their texts? They are, after all what that religion is based on.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Doing the right thing and taking care of each other so we can get to the next level just makes sense as far as I am concerned. even if you erase a religion concept.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The 'next level'? So life is now one big computer game? what do you mean?
Ok well then I guess Boggle and I will chat LOL - Looks like you guys are getting the Full Dollar
My God and Jesus teaches me to seek the truth. Christianity is a word used to label the content of teachings and principles of a Christian denomination and Christian is simply defined as: of following the teachings or manifesting the qualities or spirit of Jesus Christ.
Not all Truths IMO can be lying in just Christianity. So you are correct I have a Vast compendium of sources in which I draw from in order to come to conclusions that make the most sense to me or gives me something to chat with you fine people about so we can all investigate and seek the truth. In making points on my personal belief, I will always do my best to NEVER be blasphemious in my words here, actions or deeds. Nor will I knowingly attempt to tear someone down for their beliefs.
I will elaborate a bit more on Mortal and Non Mortal sins.
The concept of mortal sin has been an integral part of the Christian message since the very beginning. Literally dozens of passages in the New Testament proclaim it a fearful reality, and these biblical teachings were fully accepted by, and indeed expounded upon, by the early Church Fathers.
In time the "once saved, always saved" teaching even degenerated in many Evangelical circles to the point that some would claim that a Christian could commit grave sins and still remain saved: sin did not injure his relationship with God at all. this notion falls under Blasphemy.
Fortunately, most Christians acknowledge that there are at least some mortal sins—sins which kill the spiritual life of the soul and deprive a person of salvation, unless he repents. Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, Lutherans, Anglicans, Methodists, Pentecostals—all acknowledge the possibility of mortal sin at least in some form. Only Presbyterians, Baptists, and those who have been influenced by these two sects reject the reality of mortal sin.
The Bible clearly delineates between sins. Some sins are seen as worse than others; however, more often than not it is the motivation and knowledge behind a sin that makes it more serious. In Exodus 34.7 the three primary Hebrew words for sin are listed. These words are typically translated sin, transgression, and iniquity. According to a classical understanding of these words, a sin is missing the mark. You were going in the right direction, but you veered or fell short. A transgression is going astray. You had good intentions, but you took the wrong path. Iniquity is much more serious. An iniquity is when you knew better, but you intentionally chose to do wrong - even knowing the consequences. New Testament Greek has a similar construct of these words.
Others cautiously suggest the only mortal sin is to not accept Christ as Savior. The only problem with this notion is 1st John 5.16 seems to indicate one can be seen committing such a sin and not accepting Christ as Savior is a sin of omission. Something you don't do. So, to try and understand what a mortal sin is, we turn to the Roman Catholic Church.
The Catholic Church asserts there are two kinds of sin: venial and mortal. A mortal sin is one that causes damnation, while a venial sin does not. The list of mortal sins, according to the Catholic Church, mostly has to do with church law. But for any sin to be mortal it must meet three criteria: (1) It must be a serious matter. This means the sin must be completely out of line with the commandments to love and honor God. (2) The transgressor must have sufficient reflection. This means one has to have the knowledge that the sin is out of line with God's commands and chooses to do it anyway. (3) There must be full consent of the will. This means the person about to commit a sinful act knows s/he's about to commit a mortal sin and opts to commit it anyway. With this definition in hand, it seems what the Catholic Church calls a mortal sin is similar to what scripture calls "iniquity"a willful, informed transgression of the commandments of God.
Can a mortal sin be forgiven? Theologians differ, but Christ asserted that the only unforgivable sin is blasphemy of the Spirit of God (Matthew 12.31). However, John clearly has reservations about those who have deliberately committed a mortal sin. "There is sin which is mortal; I do not say that one is to pray for that" (1 John 5.16b)in other words, you can pray for forgiveness for a mortal sin, but. . . .
As we've seen, mortal sins are those committed with willful and informed intent. When someone knows full well that what they're about to do (or choosing not to do) is wrong and doesn't care, then provisions for forgiveness may be rather scarce. Maybe not, but one needs to consider the risk. So, a word for the wise - Don't. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- To Further on - "Does God make Mistakes" here is some food for thought. I retracted my usage of the word " Mistake" in my second Post. BUT!!!
We are next informed by the author of the Pentateuch that God said "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness," and that "God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him--male and female created he them."
If this account means anything, it means that man was created in the physical image and likeness of God. Moses while he speaks of man as having been made in the image of God, never speaks of God except as having the form of a man. He speaks of God as "walking in the garden in the cool of the day;" and that Adam and Eve "heard his voice." He is constantly telling what God said, and in a thousand passages he refers to him as not only having the human form, but as performing actions, such as man performs. The God of Moses was a God with hands, with feet, with the organs of speech. A God of passion, of hatred, of revenge, of affection, of repentance; a God who made mistakes:--in other words, an immense and powerful man.
It will not do to say that Moses meant to convey the idea that God made man in his mental or moral image. Some have insisted that man was made in the moral image of God because he was made pure. Purity cannot be manufactured. A moral character cannot be made for man by a god. Every man must make his own moral character. Consequently, if God is infinitely pure, Adam and Eve were not made in his image in that respect. Others say that Adam and Eve were made in the mental image of God. If it is meant by that, that they were created with reasoning power like, but not to the extent of those possessed by a god, then this may be admitted. But certainly this idea was not in the mind of Moses. He regarded the human form as being in the image of God, and for that reason always spoke of God as having that form. No one can read the Pentateuch without coming to the conclusion that the author supposed that man was crated in the physical likeness of Deity. God said "Go to, let us go down." "God smelled a sweet savor;" "God repented him that he had made man;" "and God said;" and "walked;" and "talked;" and "rested." All these expressions are inconsistent with any other idea than that the person using them regarded God as having the form of man.
As a matter of fact, it is impossible for a man to conceive of a personal God, other than as a being having the human form. No one can think of an infinite being having the form of a horse, or of bird, or of any animal beneath man. It is one of the necessities of the mind to associate forms with intellectual capacities. The highest form of which we have any conception is man's, and consequently, his is the only form that we can find in imagination to give to a personal God, because all other forms are, in our minds, connected with lower intelligences.
It is impossible to think of a personal God as a spirit without form. We can use these words, but they do not convey to the mind any real and tangible meaning. Every one who thinks of a personal God at all, thinks of him as having the human form. Take from God the idea of form; speak of him simply as an all pervading spirit--which means an all pervading something about which we know nothing--and Pantheism is the result.
To further on the Notion of whether or not God makes mistakes now or in the Time of our existance
ALL earnest students of the Bible eventually find themselves facing a great problem - the apparent failure of God’s purpose for, and His promises to, the Israel people and nation.
The Bible declares that God brought the Israel people into being and organized them into a nation to be His servant - the instrument of the Great Purpose which He is working out in human history and affairs - and it further declares that this relationship between God and Israel is UNCONDITIONAL, UNALTERABLE and EVERLASTING. Yet it also records that through disobedience and rebellion the Israel people eventually became totally unfit for this great and holy responsibility and that, as a consequence, God abandoned them to their enemies who conquered and drove them away as captives to distant lands where they became scattered and lost. Thus it would appear that God made a mistake - that His plan of using Israel as the instrument of His Purpose has failed.
Nevertheless, in spite of this apparent failure and of the fact that the Israel people had disappeared, God, through His prophets, continued to promise their existence as a people and nation and that eventually, with the coming of the Messiah to rule over them, they would be restored to their place as the instrument of His Great Purpose and go forward to demonstrate and to extend the righteousness of His Kingdom and Rule to all people. Yet, how can this be with Israel scattered and lost? To say, as some do, that the Jews are Israel, is to display a total ignorance of history. The Jews are neither a people nor a nation; they are a multiracial religious body of whom only a few are of Israelitish descent. This then is the problem which confronts every earnest student of the Holy Scriptures. Does God make mistakes? Have His plans and promises failed?
Did God make a mistake when He brought the Israel people into being and said to them: “Thou art an holy people unto the Lord thy God; the Lord thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth.” - Deuteronomy 7:6.
Did God fail to foresee that Israel would become disobedient and rebellious, and thus become unfit for His Purpose?
Did God make a mistake when he formed the Israel people into His own kingdom-nation to demonstrate the righteousness of His Will as the Law of human life and conduct, when He said: “Ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests and an holy nation.” - Exodus 19:6.
Did he fail to foresee that the time would come when Israel would rebel against His Will and Laws?
Did God make a mistake when He promised David a future regathering of the Israel people in a new home: “Moreover I will appoint a place for my people Israel, and will plant them, that they may dwell in a place of their own, and move no more.” - II Samuel 7:10.
Did this purpose fail, or did God change His mind?
Was God also mistaken when, long after Israel had disappeared, He promised that she would continue as a nation as long as the Sun, Moon and Stars remain, and as long as we continue to have day and night? “Thus saith the Lord, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The Lord of hosts is his name: if those ordinances depart from before me saith the Lord, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation.” - Jeremiah 31:35-36.
Was the fulfilment of this promise beyond the ability and power of God? Did God also make a mistake when He established the Royal House and Throne of David at the head of the Israel nation, and when He promised David: “Thine house and thy kingdom shall be established forever before thee: thy throne shall be established for ever.” - II Samuel 7:16.
This promise, which God swore to fulfil, requires the continuous and everlasting existence of the House and Throne of David. Did God fail to foresee their fall? Or was He unable to prevent it? Did God make a mistake when, in announcing the coming birth of His Son, He sent His Angel to say to Mary: “Thou ... shalt bring forth a son, and shalt call his name Jesus ... and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David: and he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever.” - Luke 1 :31-33.
How can God fulfil this promise, if Israel and the Throne of David no longer exist?
These and many similar questions are of vital importance, for the hope of all Christians in a life beyond the grave rests solely on the POWER and FAITHFULNESS of God. If He falls in ONE plan or promise, how do we know He will not fall in others? If changing conditions have made it impossible for Him to carry out His plans and to fulfil His promises concerning Israel and the Throne of David, how do we know that later conditions will not make it impossible for Him to fulfil His promise to us concerning a future life? Or, if He has changed His mind about keeping these promises, what assurance have we that He will keep ANY promise?
To say that God’s Purpose for the Israel people failed is to say that He made a mistake in choosing them. To say that God changed His Plan because the Israel people became disobedient is to say that He was unable to foresee that they would do so. To say that Israel and the Throne of David no longer exist is to say that God has failed to keep His promise. Or, to say that He has replaced Israel with the Christian Church is to say that He has changed His mind.
To say such things is to deny the Wisdom and Power of God, and is a serious charge against His HONOUR. Such a God is INCONCEIVABLE.
Nevertheless, though these are serious questions they have a simple answer. It is that the Celto-Saxon peoples are Israel and that the British Throne is the Throne of David.
And all that Christians need to do to recognize this fact is to BELIEVE God instead of just believing IN Him. Here is a link to a valuable source concerning this last part. <a href='http://www.potts.net.au/Stand/Israel.htm' target='_blank'>Click Here to read more about Isreal and the Throne of David</a>
In my second Posting I retracted my use of the word "Mistake" Although ammending and changing or fixing to suit change, I still think has taken place. So please forgive me on the Mistake Ruling. Just because something doesn't pan out the way you planned, doesn't mean you made a mistake. You, Me or God. As I said maybe "mistake is the WRONG word ALL the time"
PEACE
P.S. I am actually enjoying a forum for once. Thank GOD that some of you are here to chat on these subjects here and Thanks to the Admins and Moderators for letting us continue.
You make some excellent points. let me give you my standing on the whole house of david thingy.
i am not a scholar, i have not been to bible college, all my views have been shaped by my parents and christian friends. I believe that parts of the bible are not to be taken literally. The people of isreal were Gods chosen people. Now, by the grace of Christ, everyone who believes can be a part of God's chosen people. they are the 'new' israel. David ruled the whole of israel, Jesus rules the whole of the new israel
As for your whole God making mistakes, failing to forsee this and that, the God i believe in is perfect and has a perfect plan. nothing happens without him knowing about it and without him knowing that it would have happened since before the dawn of time and nothing that he has not go complete control over. Does he enjoy it? No He has set out a perfect plan that calls for it, therefore, it must happen.
Sorry if I don't add anything productive to this post, but I just had to say that while discussions between different religions usually turn into flamewars, this thread containing discussions between two people of the same faith has been greatly interesting indeed. Personally, I'm currently an agnostic, but I think it's really cool -- to see ideas about faith and sinning and such hammered out in front of us.
Please, carry on. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
The Protestant objections against the mortal-venial distinction are more or less academic. The Catechism lists as examples for venial sin "mindless chatter" and "immoderate laughter", i.e. unavoidable, everyday things, which nonetheless have to be defined as sinful because they violate perfect order. It's a definition for consistency's sake, and no "cop-out" for Catholics. Whatever a Protestant would call sin is mortal sin in dogma terminology.
The Baptist/Presbyterian doctrine of unconditional salvation through baptism is more problematic. I wonder how many of their members know what they're subscribing to there. It means that Christians can do whatever they want and still get a free ticket to Heaven. It means that Hitler is in Heaven, but Gandhi is roasting in the Fire. I can see why atheists would consider that system offensive and silly. All faith aside, it's counter-productive to effecting a change of heart and a betterment of behaviour in Christians.
I dunno there Twex, I'm a Baptist and we dont subscribe to the notion that a dunk in the water gets you into heaven.
Actually - we always thought that sorta thing was what the Catholics believed, strangely enough.
Baptism is important to the Baptists, but only in that it is symbolic. Its an action showing your commitment. I think the verse is "Believe in Jesus Christ as your saviour and Lord, and proclaim it publicly".
Well Baptism is the publicly part. When you are baptised, you are proclaiming that you believe in Jesus as your Saviour and Lord. Its entirely possible that you are in fact lying, and in that case the water wont save you.
The question, then, is how you define genuine faith. Can someone have genuine faith in the moment of baptism, but still fall into damnation later? Or does he only <i>think</i> his faith is genuine although he's already damned? Put differently, can a man, at any point in his life, be <i>sure</i> that he will go to Heaven, no matter what he'll do in the future?
We're probably both guilty of generalization there -- the Baptists are not creedal, and have within limits freedom to subscribe to different points of view. A committee has published a <a href='http://www.sbc.net/bfm/bfm2000.asp#iv' target='_blank'>"doctrine"</a>, but it is sufficiently equivocal in all controversial points.
What can't be denied is that the Baptists were (and in some instances are) historically influenced by Calvin, whose teachings the Catholic Church has universally condemned.
It is somewhat strange that Calvin would pop up so late in a thread about election and salvation. <a href='http://www.bringyou.to/apologetics/num21.htm' target='_blank'>Here</a> we see his errors explained and refuted by a Catholic apologetic. I'm confident that over time intuition and logic will expunge them completely.
Well, I read those links and I sure as heck am not a Calvinist.
As you said, we vary within outselves. We're protestants here - its both a blessing and a curse, but doctrine doesnt hold much water with us. We read the Bible, we get what we can out of it, but try and define us in it and you will find heaps of variation. And that can be both a good thing and a bad thing.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Can someone have genuine faith in the moment of baptism, but still fall into damnation later?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Short answer - yes. A relationship with Christ is ongoing - its a commitment. Its not a once off one time fee of baptism for entry to heaven.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Put differently, can a man, at any point in his life, be sure that he will go to Heaven, no matter what he'll do in the future?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I for one, hold that a true, honest acceptance of Christ's sacrifice, and an honest prayer where one comes before God to ask for Christ's blood to pay for one's sins, that all sin that person has and will commit will be forgiven. Note the verses in Revelation, where it states taht we are "sealed with Him until the day of redemption." I believe the official term for the idea is called eternal security...
What led me to that conclusion was the fact that most Churchs, I would venture to say all, believe that when you accept Christ, you are saved. The only difference is that some believe that you may lose it, either through lack of good works, or presence of Sin.
I happen to believe however, that "maintaining" salvation sort of undermines the saving power of Christ's death on the cross.
Just thought I'd throw some gas on this smouldering fire <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->.
While you certainly considered this position well before you put your faith in it, I'd like to point out that the writer of Hebrews doesn't seem to share the opinion that all the faithful are <i>unbreakably</i> "sealed by the Spirit" (Eph 4:30, btw). In Heb 10:26-27 he warns those that are already "perfected forever" and "sanctified"(14) not to "sin willfully" lest they be cast into the Fire!
Or take John 15:6. Who are those that don't "abide"?
I see no diminishing of the atoning sacrifice in such a position. God's grace is clearly sufficient for all, but that doesn't mean it is <i>efficient</i> for all, or that those destined to initial salvation are necessarily destined to final salvation as well.
You say you believe in Jesus Christ as your saviour and Lord once and thats it - free ticket?
If you really did believe in Jesus Christ, you would want to follow his commands and teachings. So if you consistently didnt, in full knowledge of what you were doing was wrong, I'd say that you just disproved your little proclaimation.
And by the way, whatever propaganda might have told you, the Catholic Church allows a wide variety of different opinions regarding grace, free will and pre-destination. It has in fact commanded the squabbling scholars to stop accusing each other of heresy, which is more than Calvinism ever accomplished.
but you have to ask the question, if someone proclaims that they are a christian and then goes and commits awful sins, were they really a christian in the first place? Would somone who had aknowledge Jesus with their heart go and commit awful sins knowingly? I dont think so
Well, people change. Why shouldn't someone who falls at 50 have been a "real Christian" at 20? You could say what he was never <i>destined</i> to <i>stay</i> a "real Christian" though.
Eheheheh Twex my Dad is an ex Catholic, and while he is now a protestant he doesnt rail against the evils of Catholicism. As he said "They are just a little older, a little more structured, and while they do get hung up on certain things we dont find important, they still believe the basics."
As for the second bit. Being a Christian still means free will. You can accept God at any time, and you can turn your back on God at any time.
You can be gung ho at 20 and a hardcore atheist at 60 but you'll still be in trouble (I reckon so anyway).
I actually did a teaching on that Hebrews 10:26-27 passage a while back, and remember looking at the context to interpret the passage... Looking at it again, I found some interesting things in the later half of the chapter that may have changed my mind...
I'll get back to you guys <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> .
Comments
Many thanks from a heartily amused atheist. Keep it up! <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
Remember there is a difference between Religion and Doctrine OK . Religion is your personal relationship with God - The way you practice your faith - nothing more.
Doctrine is the rules of your religion - the LAWS - the defining elements - Doctrine more than anything is what suffers from the interpretation of man.
Now... It states in the Bible that if you have been given the information and then knowingly turn away then you are responsible - This addresses Infinitums question about the person who does not have the information will you be deemed innocent? Yes. ( but Love is a common principle that exists without Christianity or the knowledge of - so further discussion is needed). Same holds true in real life. If your mother is dead and I do not know, or have not heard that she has died and I say to you something to the effect of "Hey how is your mother doing"? I cannot be responsible for the end result there. I cannot be damned so to speak for not knowing. moreover I shouldn't.
As far as forgiveable sins and NON forgivable sins. One must take into account the culpability of the sin. If I kill a man - is it a sin? sure. am I culpable? Will I be doomed to suffer the fate of a sinner if I killed the man in order to protect my family - like my 16 month old son and wife? NO I am not and that is direct information from the Bishop of my local Diocese. There are Mortal Sins and Non Mortal Sins.
Some basic examples on NON mortal sins: Lying, theft, coveting, disrespect, Now these are forgivable - BUT if you keep doing it over and over and you know you are wrong and have the notion that you can at any time just say Jesus forgive me.... It then become blatent disrespect to God and Abuse of the system technically. Therefore you will be judged on this accordingly.
Some basic examples of Mortal sins are: Murder ( not killing ) Rape, Adultery, Suicide. Violence against a person or another of Gods creatures... Succumbing to Addiction is also considered a Mortal Sin. These here are subsections of the noted 7 deadly sins.(see below)
Murder is not forgivable - Killing a person in self defense or like a Military man going over to a foreign country and killing a person can be forgiven - You are not culpable for these. This is in defense, whether it be of country and it's people or yourself or to defend a loved one where the person would be killing you or them. Killing itself is not a sin - it is the Selfishness that is behind murder or the blatent disregard of life or that the victim according to the culprit has NO RIGHTS to life - that is not forgivable.
Rape - Well now Sex as a whole is something that is to be shared by people who have come before God to sanctify their union - They have made a commitment to themselves and to God stating that they will be devoting themselves to this one person. - Sex is viewed as GREAT COOL AND OK because it helps to propogate the species and therefore creates a new being(s) for you to share Gods word and Gods creations with. Which just happen to be YOU and your chosen partner before God, as well as the earth and everything else. I would be so bold to even say that as long as the 2 are commited and have professed this and acted accordingly before God - that regardless of Church involvement it would be considered glory to God. This is just my personal opinion though. Rape is disrespect and defilement of the body, both the Rapists and the victim. The body is Gods creation. If you abuse it in a knowingly selfish manner it is not forgivable. The Victim is not Culpable because it was not their choice - even if they gave up fighting and let the Rape happen - That alone is a defensive move in order to prevent further harm or even from being killed.
Adultery is Knowingly defiling a union that has been sanctified by God - If you bothered to get married then you friggin know better!!! Not forgivable.
Suicide is the same as Murder, but worse - no matter what the reason... Basically. It is because you are a creation of God and have been given the responsibility of yourself and possible others. In dealing with the notion that the committer of said suicide has lost all hope - It basically states that you do not believe in God anymore and that he is NOT there for you and that you think that he can't help you. Which is wrong. You must believe that there are reasons for the position you are in. God said - I will not suffer you to be tempted above what you are able to handle - but will with each temptation provide a way for escape. Remember what doesn't kill us makes us stronger. Sometimes the most difficult of times is in design to strengthen and fortify us and teach us how to overcome that situation again. So BUCK UP!
Violence against Self, another human and the like ( Gods Creations ) is NOT forgivable - It's difficult to believe that this needs further explanation - but for those out of the loop on this. Read on to see what I say about Love and Good manners?
Addiction - basically you are giving up - God gave you the power to make choices and you have chosen to defile your body and put it into a state in which it is not clear and unblemished - You cannot fully function in the state in which you were created if you are allowing a substance to take part in the dictation and control of your actions. Also if the substance is harmful and will cause injury to the body in which God has Leased to you while you are here. It's not forgivable EVEN smoking TOBACCO if not moderated and is an Addiction - It kills you - It robs you of Enjoyable YEARS of your life - The Caring for your feable Carcass while you suffer from it's effects then causes undo hardship on your loved ones. it's a SIN and in most cases a darned stupid and selfish one at that. Because you know the Truth about it, yet you continue to choose to remain powerless to change it.
Take into Consideration the 7 Deadly SINS - Greed, Lust, Pride, Envy, Sloth, Gluttony, Wrath - Please bear in mind that these, if partaken in willingly, and frequently have the facades of just being OK in other forms and deceipt is allowed to perforate your faith. When you have full knowledge of God, Christ, and the Holy spirit and Allah and you still commit these - it is NOT LOVE = Not forgivable
Now as far as entry into heaven. It says in the Bible that admittance into heaven is based upon an entry in the Book of life. It takes more than just acknowledging the existance of Jesus as the son of God. The bottom line is the teachings of Christ. If you acknowledge him being the son of God then Surely his teachings would have to be acknowledged and followed. This all boils down to LOVE. All of the ten commandments boil down to LOVE and basically good manners. If you love God - You believe - You love Jesus - You believe - You then know that his teachings are the key.
To deal with this --"I still don't get how Christians can hold the belief that God is all-loving when he sends people to Hell." as stated by Josh Bartlet
GOD doesn't send you to HELL - YOU CHOOSE by actions and Deeds. Anything and Everything you do, if it is against GOD - YOU have written your OWN ticket. remember YOU have the CHOICE. If you Live by the "Rules" than you have as well chosen LIFE rather than Death.
You see God has made some mistakes in the deliverance of his message over time - that's why he has done these "Do overs" like the flood , Sodom and Gomorrah etc. etc. He has created a place called "heaven" where he don't want any RIF RAFF! Your life here and how you live it will determine if you earn a place there. IF you don't, it's because you didn't care - didn't love God and Rather choose to be an Ill mannered fucktard and treat people like crap while you are on Earth. You see God figured out the best way to Teach you how to live as a human on earth and EARN your place in Heaven was to come to Earth as a Human and teach us by living the example. To show you that it can be done. That's how much he loved you! and then he allowed Jew and Gentile alike entrance into heaven with the Crucifixion of his son ( God and Jesus are one in the Same - whover believes in that shall not perish ) Which was his promise to you. The crucifixion is meaningless without the ressurection. It is this very same ressurection that we will all go through when the time comes. What better way to teach someone that by coming down to your level and simply showing how it's done. You had to be shown in order to believe.
So yes, it is your behavior and deeds in accordance with Christ's teachings that garner a favorable entry into the Book of Life; Therefore entry to Heaven.
If I have love for you as a neighbor and would care to look out for you as I would myself - Am I going to Rob, Kill, covet etc etc? NO! = The same holds true if I have good manners.
I saw COPS on TV the other night and an LAPD Sgt. said "crime all boils down to manners". If you have good manners you aren't going to be the one knocking the old woman upside her head to steal her 78$ so you can buy and smoke a Rock and then Rape her for your 30 seconds of selfish orgasm. Right?
On the forgiveness issue - from the sermon on the mount - where Jesus taught these fundamentals....
People always get mixed up in forgiveness. OK - so someone comes along and Rapes your wife. Forgiveness from you and her is not for the Rapist alone. It is a way to free yourself from being under the burden of letting it RULE YOUR LIFE. it's not a "scott free - your all set" type of thing. YOu have to seperate JUDGEMENT from your forgiveness. The Rapist will be judged. But forgiving him is the way for you to allow yourself to be free from harbouring in the muck and mire that accompanies NOT forgiving. Personally it's still not an easy concept and TIME will always be a factor.
But remember If that Jerk had good manners and had LOVE, he would not have sought to rape your wife - moreover he would be inclined to maybe paint your fence or babysit your kids.
In short - We are all here to make sure that each of us make it. If you don't care, you won't make it, and probably don't understand and/or agree with my post. If you do care... well chances are you understand this post and agree.
All in all just LOVE if you erase religion and the like from my post you still come up with a pretty good way to share what is here for us. how to fix our mistakes and how to live our lives, Your life... All of us together. and move on if we can Tow the line.
PEACE.
I am born protestant - catholic by marriage - HL community supporter by trade - Father at home - Realist by heart - prefer just making sense of it all and to find out what is next without mucking it all up.
I wouldn't go as far to say that God screwed up, people screwed it up.
And as far as things go, It is only God who can determine who is wrong and right and what can't or can be forgiven.
Yes people screwed up, but remember... You have to stop and consider the truth behind it - He was trying to deliver a message all along that came at a time when we were believing in Zeus too. and all the while we acted up on him...Hmmm. God really couldn't have known how we would take his delivery of The Word. We had been making up stories about why and what and it's reason for existing for centuries. God tried a few times throughout the Old Testament to deliver his Word and make it stick. So he used his power to start over and fix his mistakes when things didn't pan out? he wiped the planet clean right? he must have tossed up all the papers from his desk pulled out his hair and flushed a toilet somewhere. Are you so sure the people washed away were, or were not mistakes either by their creation, dying or existing, Was God frustrated in his decision to wash the world clean and start anew? was God having frustration a mistake? Did he feel he could have acted sooner or another way and saved more lives by killing less of them? There came a time when the old laws became a mistake Eye for an Eye often could kill you if you didn't get care back then. So when God decided to allow Gentile and Jew as well as all others if they pass the tests of love as delivered by Christ his son - basically being told the New Rules. The Old Rules had to Go and the NEW ones had to come in - don't you remember Eye for an Eye? Now tell of Gods mistakes. He's made em he fixed them and gave everyone the chance to join him if we can stop making them. You may be interested to know that a true Muslim believes in all 3 The Torah or Talmud, the Injil or The Bible and Christ. and the Koran which is OMHO further knowledge about specifics and augments or fixes to the laws of Moses time through and told to Mohamed - another prophet of God( forgive spellings)- and how to simply get it done. If we are to believe in The Bibles -Talmud section and added more books that are available. We are IT - The First of kind. Angels had been given lordship over realms and reason. God wanted to create something big - You and ME in his image - If we are in his, then surely he is in ours - we are of the same makeup physically emotionally and spiritually and when we make it he tells us that he will fill in all the blanks and unlock all our deserved potential - This Loving creation must have learned lessons on the way as told by all three books as the TRUTH. He has the power to create. At each moment in life's creation, mistakes happen and new lives die at birth - God takes back what is his. what would you do if it was your mistake Do you Forgive God when your child dies at birth? do you love God enough to do that. He decided to take it back because he did not want you to be suffered above what you ( and child) are able if escape was not possible in his promise - you must know he will take you - logically it seems the only real way GOd can justify death to any of us at this day and age.
is Satan a Mistake? Satan only exists because God allows him to do so and he also allows temptation to take place. You know God is an alright dude. he does his best to test us well and make sure we are top notch before it comes time to take us home.
In the Three is the story of us and our Relationship with God - in the three you can plainly see where both sides fail to meet eye to eye and throughout God fixes the way in which he tries to deliver the message because at the time of Christ Small local miracles to peeps after the time of Moses passing were not even enough to keep convincing the people. Many things such as the population growing and spreading as well as other influences for instance all mattered for the spreading of The Word. More of us had been missing the message from the days of Old - His original perfect beings we failing. Jew? and Gentile - Old testament with its Torah essence would have you believe that the Gentile was going nowhere. God must have made a mistake in judgement and said Hey ok one last straw I love you guys see - so here I come - Hmm how to I pull it off.... Hmmm Ok I'll use my power of the Holy Spirit I have and become man in the form of my son and show you. and if you don't love me enough to try your hardest on the test I can't let you in. So "mistake" may be the wrong word all the time. and I do mean period. please forgive
Our job is now to show God he did the right thing so he doesn't think he made another mistake with allowing us to have lives. Remember He's just like us and he hurts too when we don't love him back. maybe he doesn't even understand how we couldn't
Only now do you know partly - Then, you shall know fully. - God
Maybe Heaven is the Love that God has for us. So that when more of us love God, the bigger his heart grows, so more of us can get in.
Just Love.
PEACE
You are beautiful.... Yes further in newer teachings, things like the allowance of anger or dissent or lacking the ability to forgive. Some of the 7 sins like Sloth and Envy can play on you physically and spiritually. Anger, even though you do not project can be considered a lesser sin and harmful to your spirit. This and hate or loathing or any time spent on Pondering notions like "would things be different if I had only done that differently"? IMO - you can physically suffer the effects from your state of spirit. Remember you don't just have a soul. If your spirit is poor you cannot conceivably combat the lurkers in the physical domain from setting forth instances of failing health and wellness in full conjunction with your mind, body responsibilities.
These lesser sins are ways for you to learn the lessons of sinning and of the spirits role while you walk the earth.
nutshell kida, in the concept, my Quip is: Who you are is Who you are, and who you may become.
Thanks for your earlier post.
Twex and a few others ( I may edit and add all names after I read more...) you had very insightful and intelligent offerings and I am glad you were here to post.
Those who choose to reject god don't get to be with him after they die. The problem is, there are so many religions that say the same thing, that how do you know which religion to pick? Do you just gotta pick one and hope that you made the right choice? Because otherwise you're going to Hell?
Rhuadin
Some good points there E-th33p, but I still disagree with the "we cant know what God really wants".
Lets assume their is a God, that he is All powerful, and deeply interested in the human race. What is actually stopping this supposed all powerful deity from creating a book, using humans to do so, making it accurate, and keeping it accurate for thousands of years? Are you saying he cant do that?
You may doubt whether he has, but its entirely possible. I think he has, and I think its the Bible. And thus, I do believe that this God has communicated part of his Will to us, and it is possible to make pretty accurate decisions based upon what you think God wants you to do.
And OFM - God doesnt understand us? Therefore he cant be all powerful, therefore he has been lying to us, therefore he isnt perfect, and therefore I doubt everything I had believed about him.
And there dies the Christian religion. Claiming God isnt perfect or somehow faillible doesnt cut the mustard for me anyway.
While your general ideas and views on the subject are sound, i feel you made a few errors.
The whole bit about forgivable and non forgivable sins. There is only one sin that cannot be forgiven - Blaspheming against the Holy Spirit. Any other sin can and will be forgiven. However, just because one sin cannot be forgiven, doesnt mean you wont get into heaven - Christ says that anyone who believes on him shall not perish but have everlasting life.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->You see God has made some mistakes in the deliverance of his message over time <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
God doesnt make mistakes. no question about it
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Our job is now to show God he did the right thing so he doesn't think he made another mistake<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
see above
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Well I didn't go so far to say "God screwed up"<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If you make a mistake, you screw up. its another phrase for the same thing
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->is Satan a Mistake?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No. Does God like him? No. Is God going to one day destroy him and all who follow him? Yes.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->and throughout God fixes the way in which he tries to deliver the message <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
He doesnt need to 'fix' anything he does
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Now tell of Gods mistakes<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No mistakes
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Anger, even though you do not project can be considered a lesser sin and harmful to your spirit.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There is nothing wrong with anger, its what you do when you are angry that is wrong. "In your anger, do not sin, do not let the sun go down while you are still angry and do not give the devil a foot-hold"
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->how do you know which religion to pick? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
study them. read thier texts. get as much knowledge about them as possible. analyse them, then decide
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Good Lord, I tremble in fear to think what OFM's full dollar would be if thats only his 2 cents......<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
lol <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
Any other sin can be forgiven -- indeed. But <i>will</i> it be forgiven, automatically, with no further co-operation by the sinner?
Can a Christian, once baptized, become a contract killer, murder for the rest of his life, and still expect to be saved by faith alone? Or does not the fact that he is able to commit such grave sins habitually, that, even if he might profess regret, he only does so with his mouth but not with his actions and not with his heart, indicate that he has distanced himself from God and will not be saved?
You should and will be held accountable for ALL of your actions while you are here - God is Just - but you won't get away with anything if your intention is to pull the wool over God's eyes and Defile his creations with your lameness and foolish assumptions - such Notions are in direct design to undermind God and his Word and that once again is Blasphemy.
REMEMBER Satan assumed the same bullcrap and look at his fate now and what is to come. Satan assumed he could do no wrong and he didn't need God to oversee his deeds or tell him what to do. and he assumed his deeds would go unpunished.
You are also Wrong about God Making mistakes.
Read the Talmud and you tell me if God made mistakes in the Old Testament Law that were not changed in the New Testament.
God has decided that taking an Eye for an Eye is no longer a good idea hence that Law was a mistake If you are married God said in the old testament that if you lust after another woman you need to gouge out your eyes I guess he didn't change that then either. Also if you steal it is that hand alone that is evil and you need to cut it off.
These are all mistakes in the LAW that were changed later on by God therefore eve he must have seen that the Original Laws were a mistake.
God loved us enough to change the original plans jhe had. The notion that JEWS were the only ones to gain admittance. God Made a mistake and changed that in order to allow Gentiles. He must have thought that just allowing JEWS was a mistake or he wouldn't have changed that. Right?
God does understand us - He created us and he says to us that he is Omnipresent, Omniscient and Omnipotent Which means Everywhere at all times, ALl powerfull and and ALL Knowing. He tells us that Nothing we do escapes his understanding and Knowledge. He also tell us that everything is pre-ordained - That simply means that he already Knows what is going to happen what we will choose regardless of freewill. what we choose he already know it and the outcome of the choice.
You need to re-examine your beliefs and decide whether or not they are based on what really makes sense and is Glory to God - or what fits the molds of Christianity or Religion in the doctrines set aside by the Church and the Interpretations of MAN.
If God struggled getting his message across and to have it stick and We faultered as well - One can safely say that God has the rights to change the rules and find a new way to get his message across. Hence FIX what went wrong in prior attempts. He then decided it was best to come down to our level and show us the way by becoming man and teaching us through his words and deeds. Obviously the Old way wasn't working - Simply speaking to someone off in the distance while they were alone in prayer and telling them to Run down the hill and tell everyone was becoming costly. God knows that stuff like that can get you killed. So he came himself so more of us could be saved versus knocked off for being a Loon or claiming to have spoken to God.
You are wrong about Anger. Any emotion if it is negative and unmoderated can adversely affect your spirit and mental well being. and that basic concept has nothing to do with Religion - it is a plain and simple Biological and medical Fact. So allowing such negative and unmoderated emotions to rule your life and control how you react to things and how you treat people and yourself IS harmful. You cannot effectively continue to do God's will if you do not have control over your emotional and mental state. If you do not call on God for help and continue to assume you can manage it all without him it then further becomes another form af blasphemy. Claiming at any point that you do not need God to handle a event , emotion or anything in your life is You claiming the attributes or prerogatives of deity = it is therefore a sin.
Committing Sin knowingly is Not loving God and if you have previously claimed to Love God and know the truth and have heard The Word and then have sinned and acted in such a way that is witness to others as contrary to Loving God it is then simple Blasphemy.
Blasphemy is: An indignity offered to God in words, writing, actions or signs;
Wouldn't you then consider that ANY sin when you Fully know the LAW and about What God has done for you, and you claim to Love him and have called Christ to your heart, Yet you still commit it with the notion you can simply be forgiven by asking or assuming that it is automatic. Wouldn't that be an idignity to God in words, actions, and signs? Therefore Blasphemy?
The further definition is also as simple and applies - Blasphemy is also:
impiously irreverent words actions or signs addressed to, or used
in reference to, God; speaking evil of God; also, the act
of claiming the attributes or prerogatives of deity.
As I stated to before - to Rhuadin. Religion is just your personal relationship with God. living by the principles of LOVE makes common sense to and is found in most Doctrines and teachings and in civilizations that do not neccesarily have a Labeled God So it really doesn't matter. If you know the truth and Love God you can ask him for guidance and he will surely point you on the path so you can make decisions
The Notion Boggle that one can find Religion in the Texts and choosing one requires reading of said Texts is wrong. The texts only point out Laws and stories as well as Psalms and Gospels ( teachings of faith and hope) designed to help you make decisions throughout lifes many facets in accordance with God's wishes for us.
Doing the right thing and taking care of each other so we can get to the next level just makes sense as far as I am concerned. even if you erase a religion concept.
PEACE
You should and will be held accountable for ALL of your actions while you are here - God is Just - but you won't get away with anything if your intention is to pull the wool over God's eyes and Defile his creations with your lameness and foolish assumptions - such Notions are in direct design to undermind God and his Word and that once again is Blasphemy.
REMEMBER Satan assumed the same bullcrap and look at his fate now and what is to come. Satan assumed he could do no wrong and he didn't need God to oversee his deeds or tell him what to do. and he assumed his deeds would go unpunished.
God does understand us - He created us and he says to us that he is Omnipresent and Omnipotent Which means Everywhere at all times and ALL Knowing. He tells us that Nothin we do escapes his understanding and Knowledge. He also tell us that everything is pre-ordained - That simply means that he already Knows what is going to happen what we will choose regardless of freewill. what we choose he already know it and the outcome of the choice.
You need to re-examine your beliefs and decide whether or not they are based on what really makes sense and is Glory to God - or what fits the molds of Christianity or Religion in the doctrines set aside by the Church and the Interpretations of MAN.
Committing Sin knowingly is Not loving God and if you have previously claimed to Love God and know the truth and have heard The Word and then have sinned and acted in such a way that is witness to others as contrary to Loving God it is then simple Blasphemy. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
If thats what you believe, Fine. I learnt some time ago not to argue with what others believe.
Your attitude towards sin appears to be based not just on Christianity. Mine is. While i know that sinning is wrong and i do try to aviod it, i also realise that as a human, I fall into sin too many times. However, I also believe that if i come back to God with repentance, i will be forgiven. Myra Hindley, the moors murderer, became a Chirstian while she was in Prison. I believe God forgave her completely
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->You are also Wrong about God Making mistakes.
Read the Talmud and you tell me if God made mistakes in the Old Testament Law that were not changed in the New Testament.
God has decided that taking an Eye for an Eye is no longer a good idea hence that Law was a mistake If you are married God said in the old testament that if you lust after another woman you need to gouge out your eyes I guess he didn't change that then either. Also if you steal it is that hand alone that is evil and you need to cut it off.
These are all mistakes in the LAW that were changed later on by God therefore eve he must have seen that the Original Laws were a mistake.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
They were not mistakes. Jesus taught about them because the pharasees where taking the law much to seriously, when it couldnt help them one bit. (btw, the bit about cutting your hand off is from the new testament. Jesus teaches about it himself :"It is better for you to enter life without a hand than for you to go whole into death" [or something like that])
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->God loved us enough to change the original plans jhe had. The notion that JEWS were the only ones to gain admittance. God Made a mistake and changed that in order to allow Gentiles. He must have thought that just allowing JEWS was a mistake or he wouldn't have changed that. Right? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes, He changed the plan, not becasue they were a mistake but becasue he had opened a way of salvation that is open to everybody
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->he is Omnipresent and Omnipotent Which means Everywhere at all times and ALL Knowing. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Omnipotent actually means all powerful. Omniscient is all knowing. If God is all knowing, HOW CAN HE MAKE A MISTAKE??. Things that we see as changes were planned all along. My parents went away for a week recently, and my attitude to washing up was non-existant. It changed suddenly. Did I make a mistake in not doing it when i had finished eating? you may say so, but I had it all planned. I would wait until the last day and then do it all at once. Just becasue my attitude changes doesnt mean the first one was wrong.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->If God struggled getting his message across and to have it stick and We faultered as well - One can safely say that God has the rights to change the rules and find a new way to get his message across. Hence FIX what went wrong in prior attempts. He then decided it was best to come down to our level and show us the way by becoming man and teaching us through his words and deeds. Obviously the Old way wasn't working - Simply speaking to someone off in the distance while they were alone in prayer and telling them to Run down the hill and tell everyone was becoming costly. God knows that stuff like that can get you killed. So he came himself so more of us could be saved versus knocked off for being a Loon or claiming to have spoken to God.
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If God is onmipotent (as you said earlier), how can he struggle to do anything?
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->You are wrong about Anger. Any emotion if it is negative and unmoderated can adversely affect your spirit and mental well being. and that basic concept has nothing to do with Religion - it is a plain and simple Biological and medical Fact. So allowing such negative and unmoderated emotions to rule your life and control how you react to things and how you treat people and yourself IS harmful. You cannot effectively continue to do God's will if you do not have control over your emotional and mental state. If you do not call on God for help and continue to assume you can manage it all without him it then further becomes another form af blasphemy. Claiming at any point that you do not need God to handle a event , emotion or anything in your life is You claiming the attributes or prerogatives of deity = it is therefore a sin.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree with you 100%. A negative, unmoderated emotion can ruin your life, but I didnt say that. There is nothing wrong with anger. Jesus became angry when he threw the traders out of the temple, but his anger was moderated, he didnt sin, which is what I said.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The Notion Boggle that one can find Religion in the Texts and choosing one requires reading of said Texts is wrong. The texts only point out Laws and stories as well as Psalms and Gospels ( teachings of faith and hope) designed to help you make decisions throughout lifes many facets in accordance with God's wishes for us<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So how would you go about choosing a religion, when you are faced with the multitude there are today. wouldnt it be sensible to read their texts? They are, after all what that religion is based on.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Doing the right thing and taking care of each other so we can get to the next level just makes sense as far as I am concerned. even if you erase a religion concept.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The 'next level'? So life is now one big computer game? what do you mean?
My God and Jesus teaches me to seek the truth. Christianity is a word used to label the content of teachings and principles of a Christian denomination and Christian is simply defined as: of following the teachings or manifesting the qualities or spirit of Jesus Christ.
Not all Truths IMO can be lying in just Christianity. So you are correct I have a Vast compendium of sources in which I draw from in order to come to conclusions that make the most sense to me or gives me something to chat with you fine people about so we can all investigate and seek the truth. In making points on my personal belief, I will always do my best to NEVER be blasphemious in my words here, actions or deeds. Nor will I knowingly attempt to tear someone down for their beliefs.
I will elaborate a bit more on Mortal and Non Mortal sins.
The concept of mortal sin has been an integral part of the Christian message since the very beginning. Literally dozens of passages in the New Testament proclaim it a fearful reality, and these biblical teachings were fully accepted by, and indeed expounded upon, by the early Church Fathers.
In time the "once saved, always saved" teaching even degenerated in many Evangelical circles to the point that some would claim that a Christian could commit grave sins and still remain saved: sin did not injure his relationship with God at all. this notion falls under Blasphemy.
Fortunately, most Christians acknowledge that there are at least some mortal sins—sins which kill the spiritual life of the soul and deprive a person of salvation, unless he repents. Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, Lutherans, Anglicans, Methodists, Pentecostals—all acknowledge the possibility of mortal sin at least in some form. Only Presbyterians, Baptists, and those who have been influenced by these two sects reject the reality of mortal sin.
The Bible clearly delineates between sins. Some sins are seen as worse than others; however, more often than not it is the motivation and knowledge behind a sin that makes it more serious. In Exodus 34.7 the three primary Hebrew words for sin are listed. These words are typically translated sin, transgression, and iniquity. According to a classical understanding of these words, a sin is missing the mark. You were going in the right direction, but you veered or fell short. A transgression is going astray. You had good intentions, but you took the wrong path. Iniquity is much more serious. An iniquity is when you knew better, but you intentionally chose to do wrong - even knowing the consequences. New Testament Greek has a similar construct of these words.
Others cautiously suggest the only mortal sin is to not accept Christ as Savior. The only problem with this notion is 1st John 5.16 seems to indicate one can be seen committing such a sin and not accepting Christ as Savior is a sin of omission. Something you don't do. So, to try and understand what a mortal sin is, we turn to the Roman Catholic Church.
The Catholic Church asserts there are two kinds of sin: venial and mortal. A mortal sin is one that causes damnation, while a venial sin does not. The list of mortal sins, according to the Catholic Church, mostly has to do with church law. But for any sin to be mortal it must meet three criteria: (1) It must be a serious matter. This means the sin must be completely out of line with the commandments to love and honor God. (2) The transgressor must have sufficient reflection. This means one has to have the knowledge that the sin is out of line with God's commands and chooses to do it anyway. (3) There must be full consent of the will. This means the person about to commit a sinful act knows s/he's about to commit a mortal sin and opts to commit it anyway. With this definition in hand, it seems what the Catholic Church calls a mortal sin is similar to what scripture calls "iniquity"a willful, informed transgression of the commandments of God.
Can a mortal sin be forgiven? Theologians differ, but Christ asserted that the only unforgivable sin is blasphemy of the Spirit of God (Matthew 12.31). However, John clearly has reservations about those who have deliberately committed a mortal sin. "There is sin which is mortal; I do not say that one is to pray for that" (1 John 5.16b)in other words, you can pray for forgiveness for a mortal sin, but. . . .
As we've seen, mortal sins are those committed with willful and informed intent. When someone knows full well that what they're about to do (or choosing not to do) is wrong and doesn't care, then provisions for forgiveness may be rather scarce. Maybe not, but one needs to consider the risk. So, a word for the wise - Don't.
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To Further on - "Does God make Mistakes" here is some food for thought. I retracted my usage of the word " Mistake" in my second Post. BUT!!!
We are next informed by the author of the Pentateuch that God said "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness," and that "God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him--male and female created he them."
If this account means anything, it means that man was created in the physical image and likeness of God. Moses while he speaks of man as having been made in the image of God, never speaks of God except as having the form of a man. He speaks of God as "walking in the garden in the cool of the day;" and that Adam and Eve "heard his voice." He is constantly telling what God said, and in a thousand passages he refers to him as not only having the human form, but as performing actions, such as man performs. The God of Moses was a God with hands, with feet, with the organs of speech. A God of passion, of hatred, of revenge, of affection, of repentance; a God who made mistakes:--in other words, an immense and powerful man.
It will not do to say that Moses meant to convey the idea that God made man in his mental or moral image. Some have insisted that man was made in the moral image of God because he was made pure. Purity cannot be manufactured. A moral character cannot be made for man by a god. Every man must make his own moral character. Consequently, if God is infinitely pure, Adam and Eve were not made in his image in that respect. Others say that Adam and Eve were made in the mental image of God. If it is meant by that, that they were created with reasoning power like, but not to the extent of those possessed by a god, then this may be admitted. But certainly this idea was not in the mind of Moses. He regarded the human form as being in the image of God, and for that reason always spoke of God as having that form. No one can read the Pentateuch without coming to the conclusion that the author supposed that man was crated in the physical likeness of Deity. God said "Go to, let us go down." "God smelled a sweet savor;" "God repented him that he had made man;" "and God said;" and "walked;" and "talked;" and "rested." All these expressions are inconsistent with any other idea than that the person using them regarded God as having the form of man.
As a matter of fact, it is impossible for a man to conceive of a personal God, other than as a being having the human form. No one can think of an infinite being having the form of a horse, or of bird, or of any animal beneath man. It is one of the necessities of the mind to associate forms with intellectual capacities. The highest form of which we have any conception is man's, and consequently, his is the only form that we can find in imagination to give to a personal God, because all other forms are, in our minds, connected with lower intelligences.
It is impossible to think of a personal God as a spirit without form. We can use these words, but they do not convey to the mind any real and tangible meaning. Every one who thinks of a personal God at all, thinks of him as having the human form. Take from God the idea of form; speak of him simply as an all pervading spirit--which means an all pervading something about which we know nothing--and Pantheism is the result.
To further on the Notion of whether or not God makes mistakes now or in the Time of our existance
ALL earnest students of the Bible eventually find themselves facing a great problem - the apparent failure of God’s purpose for, and His promises to, the Israel people and nation.
The Bible declares that God brought the Israel people into being and organized them into a nation to be His servant - the instrument of the Great Purpose which He is working out in human history and affairs - and it further declares that this relationship between God and Israel is UNCONDITIONAL, UNALTERABLE and EVERLASTING. Yet it also records that through disobedience and rebellion the Israel people eventually became totally unfit for this great and holy responsibility and that, as a consequence, God abandoned them to their enemies who conquered and drove them away as captives to distant lands where they became scattered and lost. Thus it would appear that God made a mistake - that His plan of using Israel as the instrument of His Purpose has failed.
Nevertheless, in spite of this apparent failure and of the fact that the Israel people had disappeared, God, through His prophets, continued to promise their existence as a people and nation and that eventually, with the coming of the Messiah to rule over them, they would be restored to their place as the instrument of His Great Purpose and go forward to demonstrate and to extend the righteousness of His Kingdom and Rule to all people. Yet, how can this be with Israel scattered and lost? To say,
as some do, that the Jews are Israel, is to display a total ignorance of history. The Jews are neither a people nor a nation; they are a multiracial religious body of whom only a few are of Israelitish descent. This then is the problem which confronts every earnest student of the Holy Scriptures. Does God make mistakes? Have His plans and promises failed?
Did God make a mistake when He brought the Israel people into being and said to them:
“Thou art an holy people unto the Lord thy God; the Lord thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth.” - Deuteronomy 7:6.
Did God fail to foresee that Israel would become disobedient and rebellious, and thus become unfit for His Purpose?
Did God make a mistake when he formed the Israel people into His own kingdom-nation to demonstrate the righteousness of His Will as the Law of human life and conduct, when He said:
“Ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests and an holy nation.” - Exodus 19:6.
Did he fail to foresee that the time would come when Israel would rebel against His Will and Laws?
Did God make a mistake when He promised David a future regathering of the Israel people in a new home:
“Moreover I will appoint a place for my people Israel, and will plant them, that they may dwell in a place of their own, and move no more.” - II Samuel 7:10.
Did this purpose fail, or did God change His mind?
Was God also mistaken when, long after Israel had disappeared, He promised that she would continue as a nation as long as the Sun, Moon and Stars remain, and as long as we continue to have day and night?
“Thus saith the Lord, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The Lord of hosts is his name: if those ordinances depart from before me
saith the Lord, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation.” - Jeremiah 31:35-36.
Was the fulfilment of this promise beyond the ability and power of God? Did God also make a mistake when He established the Royal House and Throne of David at the head of the Israel nation, and when He promised David:
“Thine house and thy kingdom shall be established forever before thee: thy throne shall be established for ever.” - II Samuel 7:16.
This promise, which God swore to fulfil, requires the continuous and everlasting existence of the House and Throne of David. Did God fail to foresee their fall? Or was He unable to prevent it? Did God make a mistake when, in announcing the coming birth of His Son, He sent His Angel to say to Mary:
“Thou ... shalt bring forth a son, and shalt call his name Jesus ... and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David: and he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever.” - Luke 1 :31-33.
How can God fulfil this promise, if Israel and the Throne of David no longer exist?
These and many similar questions are of vital importance, for the hope of all Christians in a life beyond the grave rests solely on the POWER and FAITHFULNESS of God. If He falls in ONE plan or promise, how do we know He will not fall in others? If changing conditions have made it impossible for Him to carry out His plans and to fulfil His promises concerning Israel and the Throne of David, how do we know that later conditions will not make it impossible for Him to fulfil His promise to us concerning a future life? Or, if He has changed His mind about keeping these promises, what assurance have we that He will keep ANY promise?
To say that God’s Purpose for the Israel people failed is to say that He made a mistake in choosing them. To say that God changed His Plan because the Israel people became disobedient is to say that He was unable to foresee that they would do so. To say that Israel and the Throne of David no longer exist is to say that God has failed to keep His promise. Or, to say that He has replaced Israel with the Christian Church is to say that He has changed His mind.
To say such things is to deny the Wisdom and Power of God, and is a serious charge against His HONOUR. Such a God is INCONCEIVABLE.
Nevertheless, though these are serious questions they have a simple answer. It is that the Celto-Saxon peoples are Israel and that the British Throne is the Throne of David.
And all that Christians need to do to recognize this fact is to BELIEVE God instead of just believing IN Him. Here is a link to a valuable source concerning this last part. <a href='http://www.potts.net.au/Stand/Israel.htm' target='_blank'>Click Here to read more about Isreal and the Throne of David</a>
In my second Posting I retracted my use of the word "Mistake" Although ammending and changing or fixing to suit change, I still think has taken place. So please forgive me on the Mistake Ruling. Just because something doesn't pan out the way you planned, doesn't mean you made a mistake. You, Me or God. As I said maybe "mistake is the WRONG word ALL the time"
PEACE
P.S. I am actually enjoying a forum for once. Thank GOD that some of you are here to chat on these subjects here and Thanks to the Admins and Moderators for letting us continue.
i am not a scholar, i have not been to bible college, all my views have been shaped by my parents and christian friends. I believe that parts of the bible are not to be taken literally. The people of isreal were Gods chosen people. Now, by the grace of Christ, everyone who believes can be a part of God's chosen people. they are the 'new' israel. David ruled the whole of israel, Jesus rules the whole of the new israel
As for your whole God making mistakes, failing to forsee this and that, the God i believe in is perfect and has a perfect plan. nothing happens without him knowing about it and without him knowing that it would have happened since before the dawn of time and nothing that he has not go complete control over. Does he enjoy it? No He has set out a perfect plan that calls for it, therefore, it must happen.
Please, carry on. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Rhuadin
The Baptist/Presbyterian doctrine of unconditional salvation through baptism is more problematic. I wonder how many of their members know what they're subscribing to there. It means that Christians can do whatever they want and still get a free ticket to Heaven. It means that Hitler is in Heaven, but Gandhi is roasting in the Fire. I can see why atheists would consider that system offensive and silly. All faith aside, it's counter-productive to effecting a change of heart and a betterment of behaviour in Christians.
Actually - we always thought that sorta thing was what the Catholics believed, strangely enough.
Baptism is important to the Baptists, but only in that it is symbolic. Its an action showing your commitment. I think the verse is "Believe in Jesus Christ as your saviour and Lord, and proclaim it publicly".
Well Baptism is the publicly part. When you are baptised, you are proclaiming that you believe in Jesus as your Saviour and Lord. Its entirely possible that you are in fact lying, and in that case the water wont save you.
We're probably both guilty of generalization there -- the Baptists are not creedal, and have within limits freedom to subscribe to different points of view. A committee has published a <a href='http://www.sbc.net/bfm/bfm2000.asp#iv' target='_blank'>"doctrine"</a>, but it is sufficiently equivocal in all controversial points.
What can't be denied is that the Baptists were (and in some instances are) historically influenced by Calvin, whose teachings the Catholic Church has universally condemned.
It is somewhat strange that Calvin would pop up so late in a thread about election and salvation. <a href='http://www.bringyou.to/apologetics/num21.htm' target='_blank'>Here</a> we see his errors explained and refuted by a Catholic apologetic. I'm confident that over time intuition and logic will expunge them completely.
As you said, we vary within outselves. We're protestants here - its both a blessing and a curse, but doctrine doesnt hold much water with us. We read the Bible, we get what we can out of it, but try and define us in it and you will find heaps of variation. And that can be both a good thing and a bad thing.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Can someone have genuine faith in the moment of baptism, but still fall into damnation later?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Short answer - yes. A relationship with Christ is ongoing - its a commitment. Its not a once off one time fee of baptism for entry to heaven.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Put differently, can a man, at any point in his life, be sure that he will go to Heaven, no matter what he'll do in the future?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Short answer again - no. Same as above.
What led me to that conclusion was the fact that most Churchs, I would venture to say all, believe that when you accept Christ, you are saved. The only difference is that some believe that you may lose it, either through lack of good works, or presence of Sin.
I happen to believe however, that "maintaining" salvation sort of undermines the saving power of Christ's death on the cross.
Just thought I'd throw some gas on this smouldering fire <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->.
While you certainly considered this position well before you put your faith in it, I'd like to point out that the writer of Hebrews doesn't seem to share the opinion that all the faithful are <i>unbreakably</i> "sealed by the Spirit" (Eph 4:30, btw). In Heb 10:26-27 he warns those that are already "perfected forever" and "sanctified"(14) not to "sin willfully" lest they be cast into the Fire!
Or take John 15:6. Who are those that don't "abide"?
I see no diminishing of the atoning sacrifice in such a position. God's grace is clearly sufficient for all, but that doesn't mean it is <i>efficient</i> for all, or that those destined to initial salvation are necessarily destined to final salvation as well.
If you really did believe in Jesus Christ, you would want to follow his commands and teachings. So if you consistently didnt, in full knowledge of what you were doing was wrong, I'd say that you just disproved your little proclaimation.
As for the second bit. Being a Christian still means free will. You can accept God at any time, and you can turn your back on God at any time.
You can be gung ho at 20 and a hardcore atheist at 60 but you'll still be in trouble (I reckon so anyway).
I'll get back to you guys <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> .