<!--QuoteBegin--UZi+Jan 16 2004, 02:56 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (UZi @ Jan 16 2004, 02:56 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> You could tell he was trying to ditch the Rocket Launcher. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Agreed, that was the exact size and shape of an RPG.
Furthermore, just before they punch basketball-sized holes in the guy behind the tractor, he's pulling netting or sacks out of it. And I don't think that after watching your buddy get turned to salsa would you be organizing your stash of corn.
<b>EDIT: I just figured it out.</b> Let's pretend the guy by the big truck is Achmed, the guy in the pickup is Abdul, and the guy on the tractor is Mohommed. Abdul and Achmed chat for a bit, then Abdul pulls out a 6 foot long tube from his car. The tube is wrapped in a canvas sack (or sheeting, or something... it's being stowed to look less conspicuous). However, the back end of it is not covered by the sack, and you can distinctly make out the size and shape of what is the back end of a soviet-made RPG: The exhaust port. Abdul runs it out into the field for the drop. Moments later, Mohammed pulls up right next to the RPG. Mohammed goes to talk to Achmed, while Abdul futzes around by the tractor. Then Mohammed gets completely blown away. Achmed freaks out, probably covered in a nice mist of Mohammed, while Abdul is pulling the canvas off of the RPG behind the tractor. There's really no other explanation, unless someone has asinine reason why Abdul is pulling the canvas off of the 'tractor part' while being attacked by the most fiersome helicopter of our time?
You people are overall too worked up. A terrorist dies? Who cares? An allied soldier? Again...who cares?
If you don't moan for a terrorists, why do you moan for an allied soldier? They're both human.
I personally don't care either way. The world is overcrowded anyway. They died for a good cause - cutting down the population, even if it did cost their life. No skin off my back.
Edit: They were hit by 30mm cannons, Bizzy. Enough to rip a man to nice chunky shreds. Think a Barret M82A1 (.50BMG), but bigger, on a helicopter, fired in 12-ish (not sure there...wasn't paying alot of attention) round bursts in the general direction of the men.
<!--QuoteBegin--BizZy | 9mm Messiah+Jan 16 2004, 05:00 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (BizZy | 9mm Messiah @ Jan 16 2004, 05:00 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> When you guys say "blown away" you mean literally? What was he shot with again? Some kinda explosive cannon? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> <a href='http://www.military.cz/usa/air/in_service/weapons/cannons/m230/m230_en.htm' target='_blank'>This love machine</a>
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->A senior Army official who viewed the tape said the pilots had the legal right to kill the men because they were carrying a weapon. He said there were no ground troops in the area and if the Apache pilots had let the three Iraqis go, the men might have gone on to kill American troops.
Keane agreed. "Those weapons were obviously not being pointed at them in particular, but they [the three Iraqis] are using those weapons in their minds for lethal means and they [the Apache pilots] have a right to interfere with that," he said.
Anthony Cordesman, an ABCNEWS defense consultant who also viewed the tape, said the Apache pilots would have had a much clearer picture of the scene than what was recorded on the videotape. He also said they would have had intelligence about the identity of the men in the vehicles. "They're not getting a sort of blurred picture. They have a combination of intelligence and much better imagery than we can see."
As to whether the Apache pilots could have called in ground troops to apprehend the men, Cordesman said: "In this kind of war, wherever you find organized resistance among the insurgents, you have to act immediately. If you wait to send in ground troops almost invariably your enemy is going to be gone."
Army officials acknowledged that the 30 mm cannons used by the Apache gunners were far bigger than what was needed to kill the men, but said it is the smallest weapon the Apaches have. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->You people are overall too worked up. A terrorist dies? Who cares? An allied soldier? Again...who cares?
If you don't moan for a terrorists, why do you moan for an allied soldier? They're both human.
I personally don't care either way. The world is overcrowded anyway. They died for a good cause - cutting down the population, even if it did cost their life. No skin off my back.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No matter how many people here are shedding alligator tears, I don't think anyone truely cares. Sure it sounds callous but seriously people, I don't believe a single on of your sob stories about how tragic and emotionally distraught you feel. Give it a rest. Does your mom cover your eyes when you watch CNN because it gives you nightmares? Didn't think so.
I wonder what gives em right to shoot guys who just dump an RPG at the field?They could have captured and questioned them with that firepower....because doesnt apache have also 4 Hellfire missiles?
<!--QuoteBegin--Aka'lamanaia+Jan 16 2004, 05:19 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Aka'lamanaia @ Jan 16 2004, 05:19 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I wonder what gives em right to shoot guys who just dump an RPG at the field?They could have captured and questioned them with that firepower....because doesnt apache have also 4 Hellfire missiles? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> FFS a Hellfire can destroy <b>any tank on earth</b> in one shot. It'd have been a lot messier then the 30mm cannon. **** you would have to go out with a vacuum to collect the guys.
And in case you didn't see it:
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->As to whether the Apache pilots could have called in ground troops to apprehend the men, Cordesman said: "In this kind of war, wherever you find organized resistance among the insurgents, you have to act immediately. If you wait to send in ground troops almost invariably your enemy is going to be gone."
Army officials acknowledged that the 30 mm cannons used by the Apache gunners were far bigger than what was needed to kill the men, but said it is the smallest weapon the Apaches have. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Furthermore, they were toting around an anti-tank weapon. I'd annihilate them without batting an eye.
<!--QuoteBegin--Aka'lamanaia+Jan 16 2004, 10:19 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Aka'lamanaia @ Jan 16 2004, 10:19 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I wonder what gives em right to shoot guys who just dump an RPG at the field?They could have captured and questioned them with that firepower....because doesnt apache have also 4 Hellfire missiles? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I don't completely agree with them opening fire like that...but what are they going to do? Land in the field and have a nice chat? If it WAS an RPG they'd have been shot down on landing. The only part that actually got me (and I'm an extremely cold and callous person) is when the commander ordered him to fire between the injured man in the truck to take them both out...it just seemed so...I dunno why it caught me off-guard, but it did.
I'm only bothered by the guy(s) who kept jumping the gun and saying "smoke 'em" before confirmation. That and the guys down there didn't have to die. Who knows what information they're being fed and what they went through to this end.
I'd also like to mention that people shouldn't draw a connection between 9-11 and this. There is none. They may have been terrorists in their own country, but that's an entirely different situation.
<!--QuoteBegin--DiscoZombie+Jan 16 2004, 02:18 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (DiscoZombie @ Jan 16 2004, 02:18 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> how many of those civilians deserved to die... <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Every one of them deserved to die, per the rules. "Deserved" is an intangible human idea that can mean anything you want. You can't break the laws of life, and the steadiest of those is death.
Everybody on this forum will die too. We all "deserve" it depending on who you ask.
As for those Iraqi arms dealers, war is tough; peace can't be acheived. You can't remain naive to that. Sometimes your best option is to force a temporary peace than to live in a world where violence is proliferating.
And for you guys that call the Iraqis Terrorists, lets have a <a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?act=ST&f=28&t=59358' target='_blank'>discussion on the definition of terrorist</a> on the discussion forum.
I'm going to strafe past the moral side of this arguement for some technical questions I want answered.
1) How far away do you think the Apache was from the people, cause they didn't seem to be able to hear it or see it? 2) Even if it was far away, how come the Iraqis don't react when the Apache fires and misses initially. Surely you hear a 30mm right by you and you get the hell out of dodge!
It's war, people die, judgement calls have to be made. We'll probably never know if those were Iraqi fighters or a couple of farmers having a chat.
Turn it around. Imagine if an apache was shot down and its crew killed because they weren't given permission to fire by their commanders. Would that be acceptable ?
CplDavisI hunt the arctic SnonosJoin Date: 2003-01-09Member: 12097Members
<!--QuoteBegin--Tequila+Jan 16 2004, 08:41 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Tequila @ Jan 16 2004, 08:41 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I'm going to strafe past the moral side of this arguement for some technical questions I want answered.
1) How far away do you think the Apache was from the people, cause they didn't seem to be able to hear it or see it? 2) Even if it was far away, how come the Iraqis don't react when the Apache fires and misses initially. Surely you hear a 30mm right by you and you get the hell out of dodge! <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> With a war going on im sure they were used to gun fire off in the distance. the first shots missed way off anyways b/c the laser range finder was on the wrong setting, they probably didnt even think they had been spotted.
Also dont judge what the US army crew saw by this low quality vid. They could see everything a lot more clearly. then We can fromt his video.
<!--QuoteBegin--BizZy | 9mm Messiah+Jan 16 2004, 10:48 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (BizZy | 9mm Messiah @ Jan 16 2004, 10:48 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> If it is authentic then that is terrible, worse than the execution of the north vietnamese POW on TV. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Somehow, no.
OK, im not standing on either side of the moral line either, I cant, Im not there, im not worried about getting blown up by a roadside bomb, or ambushed trying to get supplies to people. But to whoever said that it could be guys fixing a tractor, DID YOU MISS THE FACT THAT THEY HAD TO USE NIGHT VISION TO SEE THEM!?!?!??!?! when was the last time you were fixing anything larger than a flashlight in the middle of the night in a field?<!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->? I mean serisouly, two guys in trucks meet in the middle of the night in a deserted field, dump a long, cyndrical item randomly off by a road in the field, and a tractor comes up, parks RIGHT NEXT to where it was laying, and you say there is no connection?<!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->?
<!--QuoteBegin--[BFG]-|NiKoN|-+Jan 16 2004, 01:27 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> ([BFG]-|NiKoN|- @ Jan 16 2004, 01:27 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> OK, im not standing on either side of the moral line either, I cant, Im not there, im not worried about getting blown up by a roadside bomb, or ambushed trying to get supplies to people. But to whoever said that it could be guys fixing a tractor, DID YOU MISS THE FACT THAT THEY HAD TO USE NIGHT VISION TO SEE THEM!?!?!??!?! when was the last time you were fixing anything larger than a flashlight in the middle of the night in a field?<!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->? I mean serisouly, two guys in trucks meet in the middle of the night in a deserted field, dump a long, cyndrical item randomly off by a road in the field, and a tractor comes up, parts RIGHT NEXT to where it was laying, and you say there is no connection?<!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> And like I said, when being fired on, begin unwrapping said cylindrical object... for all we know it might have been a Stinger, and I don't think the crew of the Apache would've liked that.
How would they have any better field of veiw than that camera, apparently it was pitch black outside (which makes sence in context with the fact that the iraqies had no friggin clue there was an apachie hellicopter flying around right by them) From the veiw in the camera, it is realy hard to be sure as to what was actually dropped in the field. I hope to God they had some pretty decent intellegence on that one, because the concept of an apatchie flying around shredding anyone who looks like they have a gun, really p***es me off
You're looking at grainy gun camera footage sent to video via a closed circuit. This is not what you see through a thermal sight in reality - it's crystal clear, and basically looks like a perfect photo negative.
Until any of you have been in the Service and used this type of equipment, you are just talking out your butts in this topic. This footage was released by the Dept. of Defense. Do you really think they gave this to ABC TV because they were unsure of who the targets were? 'Common sense' is to 'off-topic forums' as 'hippy' is to 'bathed'.
<!--QuoteBegin--MonsieurEvil+Jan 16 2004, 05:23 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (MonsieurEvil @ Jan 16 2004, 05:23 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> You're looking at grainy gun camera footage sent to video via a closed circuit. This is not what you see through a thermal sight in reality - it's crystal clear, and basically looks like a perfect photo negative.
Until any of you have been in the Service and used this type of equipment, you are just talking out your butts in this topic. This footage was released by the Dept. of Defense. Do you really think they gave this to ABC TV because they were unsure of who the targets were? 'Common sense' is to 'off-topic forums' as 'hippy' is to 'bathed'. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I was going to say that (The first part), because, good god you don't design an attack helicopter and give it imaging systems worse then what's on a Mars Rover, but I figured everyone would go 'Nuh uh, it's night!'
<!--QuoteBegin--SuperTeflon+Jan 16 2004, 02:27 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (SuperTeflon @ Jan 16 2004, 02:27 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--MonsieurEvil+Jan 16 2004, 05:23 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (MonsieurEvil @ Jan 16 2004, 05:23 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> You're looking at grainy gun camera footage sent to video via a closed circuit. This is not what you see through a thermal sight in reality - it's crystal clear, and basically looks like a perfect photo negative.
Until any of you have been in the Service and used this type of equipment, you are just talking out your butts in this topic. This footage was released by the Dept. of Defense. Do you really think they gave this to ABC TV because they were unsure of who the targets were? 'Common sense' is to 'off-topic forums' as 'hippy' is to 'bathed'. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I was going to say that (The first part), because, good god you don't design an attack helicopter and give it imaging systems worse then what's on a Mars Rover, but I figured everyone would go 'Nuh uh, it's night!' <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> AND IT HOVARS WITHOUT FLAPPING!!!!!
Thnx monse, that calms my nerves a bit, but did they actually play this on TV though? Just cause these guys are confirmed terrorists, doesn't mean that every member of the general public wants to see them getting shreaded with lead water bottles <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo--> even on these forums several people chose not to veiw it.
pwnt. just pwnt, and dubers, grow some balls man <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> its not nearly as bad as what u see in movies today
edit: i read in those forums someone saying about another apc video or something, can someone post the link to that vid here? (if its too gruesome and offends to public just pm it to me =D)
<!--QuoteBegin--Diablus+Jan 16 2004, 05:41 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Diablus @ Jan 16 2004, 05:41 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> pwnt. just pwnt, and dubers, grow some balls man <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> its not nearly as bad as what u see in movies today
edit: i read in those forums someone saying about another apc video or something, can someone post the link to that vid here? (if its too gruesome and offends to public just pm it to me =D) <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I assume you're talking about the Russian APC that ran over an anti-tank mine and blew everyone into very small cubes?
<!--QuoteBegin--MonsieurEvil+Jan 16 2004, 05:23 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (MonsieurEvil @ Jan 16 2004, 05:23 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Until any of you have been in the Service and used this type of equipment, you are just talking out your butts in this topic. This footage was released by the Dept. of Defense. Do you really think they gave this to ABC TV because they were unsure of who the targets were? 'Common sense' is to 'off-topic forums' as 'hippy' is to 'bathed'. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> From the sound of the radio chatter, no, they didn't sound sure of who the targets were at all. There wasn't any indication from the Apache crew or the officer they're speaking to that they had any idea who they were or what they were doing. Sure, that information might have been known, but it wasn't mentioned. I for one don't think it inconceivable that the helicopter crew may have made a mistake here, though we can't ever be sure either way.
The other one was kind of cool, how often do you get to see a real 30.cal in action? But refresh my memory, why do you want to see people being cubed by a anti vehicle mine?
Comments
Agreed, that was the exact size and shape of an RPG.
Furthermore, just before they punch basketball-sized holes in the guy behind the tractor, he's pulling netting or sacks out of it. And I don't think that after watching your buddy get turned to salsa would you be organizing your stash of corn.
<b>EDIT: I just figured it out.</b> Let's pretend the guy by the big truck is Achmed, the guy in the pickup is Abdul, and the guy on the tractor is Mohommed. Abdul and Achmed chat for a bit, then Abdul pulls out a 6 foot long tube from his car. The tube is wrapped in a canvas sack (or sheeting, or something... it's being stowed to look less conspicuous). However, the back end of it is not covered by the sack, and you can distinctly make out the size and shape of what is the back end of a soviet-made RPG: The exhaust port. Abdul runs it out into the field for the drop. Moments later, Mohammed pulls up right next to the RPG. Mohammed goes to talk to Achmed, while Abdul futzes around by the tractor. Then Mohammed gets completely blown away. Achmed freaks out, probably covered in a nice mist of Mohammed, while Abdul is pulling the canvas off of the RPG behind the tractor. There's really no other explanation, unless someone has asinine reason why Abdul is pulling the canvas off of the 'tractor part' while being attacked by the most fiersome helicopter of our time?
Correction:
They are <b>humans</b>.
I am not going to go on with the rest of your post, but i will this.
Who is to say who is right? The guy with the biggest gun? Does that make him right? Does that even give him the right to think he is right?
Until we can find out who is right, and know for sure, the guys in that helicopter were as bad as the guys they were killing.
If you don't moan for a terrorists, why do you moan for an allied soldier? They're both human.
I personally don't care either way. The world is overcrowded anyway. They died for a good cause - cutting down the population, even if it did cost their life. No skin off my back.
Edit: They were hit by 30mm cannons, Bizzy. Enough to rip a man to nice chunky shreds. Think a Barret M82A1 (.50BMG), but bigger, on a helicopter, fired in 12-ish (not sure there...wasn't paying alot of attention) round bursts in the general direction of the men.
<a href='http://www.military.cz/usa/air/in_service/weapons/cannons/m230/m230_en.htm' target='_blank'>This love machine</a>
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->A senior Army official who viewed the tape said the pilots had the legal right to kill the men because they were carrying a weapon. He said there were no ground troops in the area and if the Apache pilots had let the three Iraqis go, the men might have gone on to kill American troops.
Keane agreed. "Those weapons were obviously not being pointed at them in particular, but they [the three Iraqis] are using those weapons in their minds for lethal means and they [the Apache pilots] have a right to interfere with that," he said.
Anthony Cordesman, an ABCNEWS defense consultant who also viewed the tape, said the Apache pilots would have had a much clearer picture of the scene than what was recorded on the videotape. He also said they would have had intelligence about the identity of the men in the vehicles. "They're not getting a sort of blurred picture. They have a combination of intelligence and much better imagery than we can see."
As to whether the Apache pilots could have called in ground troops to apprehend the men, Cordesman said: "In this kind of war, wherever you find organized resistance among the insurgents, you have to act immediately. If you wait to send in ground troops almost invariably your enemy is going to be gone."
Army officials acknowledged that the 30 mm cannons used by the Apache gunners were far bigger than what was needed to kill the men, but said it is the smallest weapon the Apaches have.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->You people are overall too worked up. A terrorist dies? Who cares? An allied soldier? Again...who cares?
If you don't moan for a terrorists, why do you moan for an allied soldier? They're both human.
I personally don't care either way. The world is overcrowded anyway. They died for a good cause - cutting down the population, even if it did cost their life. No skin off my back.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No matter how many people here are shedding alligator tears, I don't think anyone truely cares. Sure it sounds callous but seriously people, I don't believe a single on of your sob stories about how tragic and emotionally distraught you feel. Give it a rest. Does your mom cover your eyes when you watch CNN because it gives you nightmares? Didn't think so.
FFS a Hellfire can destroy <b>any tank on earth</b> in one shot. It'd have been a lot messier then the 30mm cannon. **** you would have to go out with a vacuum to collect the guys.
And in case you didn't see it:
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->As to whether the Apache pilots could have called in ground troops to apprehend the men, Cordesman said: "In this kind of war, wherever you find organized resistance among the insurgents, you have to act immediately. If you wait to send in ground troops almost invariably your enemy is going to be gone."
Army officials acknowledged that the 30 mm cannons used by the Apache gunners were far bigger than what was needed to kill the men, but said it is the smallest weapon the Apaches have.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Furthermore, they were toting around an anti-tank weapon. I'd annihilate them without batting an eye.
I don't completely agree with them opening fire like that...but what are they going to do? Land in the field and have a nice chat? If it WAS an RPG they'd have been shot down on landing. The only part that actually got me (and I'm an extremely cold and callous person) is when the commander ordered him to fire between the injured man in the truck to take them both out...it just seemed so...I dunno why it caught me off-guard, but it did.
I'd also like to mention that people shouldn't draw a connection between 9-11 and this. There is none. They may have been terrorists in their own country, but that's an entirely different situation.
Every one of them deserved to die, per the rules. "Deserved" is an intangible human idea that can mean anything you want. You can't break the laws of life, and the steadiest of those is death.
Everybody on this forum will die too. We all "deserve" it depending on who you ask.
As for those Iraqi arms dealers, war is tough; peace can't be acheived. You can't remain naive to that. Sometimes your best option is to force a temporary peace than to live in a world where violence is proliferating.
And for you guys that call the Iraqis Terrorists, lets have a <a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?act=ST&f=28&t=59358' target='_blank'>discussion on the definition of terrorist</a> on the discussion forum.
Oh ho ho ho! -runs-
1) How far away do you think the Apache was from the people, cause they didn't seem to be able to hear it or see it?
2) Even if it was far away, how come the Iraqis don't react when the Apache fires and misses initially. Surely you hear a 30mm right by you and you get the hell out of dodge!
Turn it around. Imagine if an apache was shot down and its crew killed because they weren't given permission to fire by their commanders. Would that be acceptable ?
1) How far away do you think the Apache was from the people, cause they didn't seem to be able to hear it or see it?
2) Even if it was far away, how come the Iraqis don't react when the Apache fires and misses initially. Surely you hear a 30mm right by you and you get the hell out of dodge! <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
With a war going on im sure they were used to gun fire off in the distance. the first shots missed way off anyways b/c the laser range finder was on the wrong setting, they probably didnt even think they had been spotted.
Also dont judge what the US army crew saw by this low quality vid. They could see everything a lot more clearly. then We can fromt his video.
I dunno how to feel about the question of right or wrong here, I'm just wondering how this got on the internet.
That's if it's even authentic...
Somehow, no.
(edit: spelling)
And like I said, when being fired on, begin unwrapping said cylindrical object... for all we know it might have been a Stinger, and I don't think the crew of the Apache would've liked that.
FYI they were about 1,500 feet away.
Until any of you have been in the Service and used this type of equipment, you are just talking out your butts in this topic. This footage was released by the Dept. of Defense. Do you really think they gave this to ABC TV because they were unsure of who the targets were? 'Common sense' is to 'off-topic forums' as 'hippy' is to 'bathed'.
Until any of you have been in the Service and used this type of equipment, you are just talking out your butts in this topic. This footage was released by the Dept. of Defense. Do you really think they gave this to ABC TV because they were unsure of who the targets were? 'Common sense' is to 'off-topic forums' as 'hippy' is to 'bathed'. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I was going to say that (The first part), because, good god you don't design an attack helicopter and give it imaging systems worse then what's on a Mars Rover, but I figured everyone would go 'Nuh uh, it's night!'
Until any of you have been in the Service and used this type of equipment, you are just talking out your butts in this topic. This footage was released by the Dept. of Defense. Do you really think they gave this to ABC TV because they were unsure of who the targets were? 'Common sense' is to 'off-topic forums' as 'hippy' is to 'bathed'. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I was going to say that (The first part), because, good god you don't design an attack helicopter and give it imaging systems worse then what's on a Mars Rover, but I figured everyone would go 'Nuh uh, it's night!' <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
AND IT HOVARS WITHOUT FLAPPING!!!!!
edit: i read in those forums someone saying about another apc video or something, can someone post the link to that vid here? (if its too gruesome and offends to public just pm it to me =D)
edit: i read in those forums someone saying about another apc video or something, can someone post the link to that vid here? (if its too gruesome and offends to public just pm it to me =D) <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I assume you're talking about the Russian APC that ran over an anti-tank mine and blew everyone into very small cubes?
From the sound of the radio chatter, no, they didn't sound sure of who the targets were at all. There wasn't any indication from the Apache crew or the officer they're speaking to that they had any idea who they were or what they were doing. Sure, that information might have been known, but it wasn't mentioned.
I for one don't think it inconceivable that the helicopter crew may have made a mistake here, though we can't ever be sure either way.