Detail Textures for NS?

KungFuSquirrel · February 2004

Figured as such. Just tried this out on the floor of one of my own maps and bloody hell, next to a non-detail textured floor it looked like the non-detailed panel was hovering at my face while the rest of the floor stayed down where it was. Insane optical illusion.

Another thing to remember about detail textures, just as a comment in general, is that they can be just as effective as very subtle highlights as well as more defined "grainy" styles. Serious Sam, for example, has a wide selection of these.

Belgarion · February 2004

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (KungFuSquirrel @ Feb 11 2004, 11:17 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>it looked like the non-detailed panel was hovering at my face while the rest of the floor stayed down where it was. Insane optical illusion.
</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

might we be privy to a screenshot of this?

Mouse · February 2004

Thanks for the info cagey and everyone.

I personally think it would be great if someone put together a collection of detail textures and _detail.txts for the official maps; as an addon of sorts.

KungFuSquirrel · February 2004

Added this as a new post because it's a completely different thought... I think most of this goes without saying, but here is my thought on how these should be handled within NS, if they are at all:<ul><li><b>Official Detail Texturing</b>:<ul><li>All applicable NS textures should be given a detail texture pass. Most will be able to share with each other, i.e. the wall_lab wall set. Lights, overlays, and various effects textures should not be included, but the general set will need appropriate consistency across the board.</li></ul></li><li><b>Detail Texturing Work Load</b>:<ul><li>To go with the consistency from the previous point, this should be done by as few people as possible. We don't need 8 million people each with their own detail texture sets, especially in something as widespread as NS. Also, Flay is always worried about crediting everyone (at least, he has been in the past), and this is made much easier if only a few people take on the task - I would say 3-5 at most, as there are a lot of things to cover.</li></ul></li><li><b>Map-Specific Detail Textures</b>:<ul><li>Adding lots of free-range files to an installation is hell, and the last thing we need is custom maps using the same custom textures overwriting each others detail textures. Just as you would place your models, sprites, or sounds in a /mapname/ folder in the appropriate directory, do the same with your detail textures. I think this should be a given for anyone releasing a map with detail textures in NS or ANY mod, whether NS does these officially or not. instead of detail/texname.tga, for example, I would use detail/ns_eclipse/texname.tga or similar. This will keep everyone's heads in one nice piece.</li></ul></li></ul>That aside, from Yama's wall and my own testing, I think this can definitely be put to very good use, but again, if done right. My personal opinion is that NS should make a step to officially use these in a future update, but of course that is up to Flay. However, I think that this would be a reasonable guide for NS detail texture usage.

KungFuSquirrel · February 2004

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Belgarion @ Feb 11 2004, 11:26 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (KungFuSquirrel @ Feb 11 2004, 11:17 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>it looked like the non-detailed panel was hovering at my face while the rest of the floor stayed down where it was. Insane optical illusion.
</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

might we be privy to a screenshot of this?</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

Sure thing. <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /> I gave it a curves ajustment a la NS just to brighten it up a little. Might not be as mind-boggling here as it is in-game. I exagerrated the detail texture a bit just to test it.

Yamazaki · February 2004

More findings:

Works fine with Solid Rendermore.
Does not work with Texture or Additive Rendermore.

For animating textures you need a detail texture assigned to every +X version or it will flicker in game. This may or may not be an effect you want.

Scythe · February 2004

I think detail textures would bring NS even further ahead in the graphical amazingness department compared to other mods.

For what it's worth, I'm behind official implantation of it.

--Scythe--

Mouse · February 2004

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Yamazaki @ Feb 12 2004, 03:47 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> More findings:

Works fine with Solid Rendermore.
Does not work with Texture or Additive Rendermore.

For animating textures you need a detail texture assigned to every +X version or it will flicker in game. This may or may not be an effect you want.  </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> 
A flickering effect could work really well if it was done near a broken light.

prsearle · February 2004

Some really nice screenshots there guys. I'm all for NS using this effect. I wonder if it's possible to play with the scale values so that the detail texture only repeats at the same rate as the main texture... that would allow some nice effects with the detail texture changing to match different areas of the main tetxure. ANother thing that occured to me: if Flayra does support this, perhaps he could add a checkbox for detail textures in the same menu as "Force 90 degree view" and "No dynamic lights".

Mouse · February 2004

I'm curious as to how much of an effect (if any) this would have on fps.

Charge · February 2004

looks great <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /> i have always loved the look of detail textures in games

Mendasp · February 2004

Most interesting post in ages on these forums!

It would be nice if we had a set of "generic" official detail files, and then we can go with the gfx/detail/mapname/ thing if anyone wants custom detail <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' />

Supernorn · February 2004

I am most impressed with the visual improvement of textures.
A most pleasing welcome to NS in my eyes. <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' />

<span style='font-size:8pt;line-height:100%'><i>edit: I already know the answer to my question.</i> </span>

kawak · February 2004

I agree this would be a nice feature to add in NS.

And i'm wondering if that details can "hang" the lighting like in <a href='http://tenebrae.sourceforge.net/shots8/quake00064.jpg' target='_blank'>this screenhot</a> someone posted earlier (the metal texture on the pilar with the torchs).

Kouji_San · February 2004

Very interesting indeed!!! That last screenshot of that quake level is so very very juicy!!! <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' />

Now we need a new detail texturepack <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' />

[edit]hope its possible to make it look like that quake one, the others also look good, but that shiny effect... OMG <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /> [/edit]

KungFuSquirrel · February 2004

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (kawak @ Feb 12 2004, 07:31 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> I agree this would be a nice feature to add in NS.

And i'm wondering if that details can "hang" the lighting like in <a href='http://tenebrae.sourceforge.net/shots8/quake00064.jpg' target='_blank'>this screenhot</a> someone posted earlier (the metal texture on the pilar with the torchs).  </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> 
No, thankfully. What you're looking at is normal mapping/bump mapping with specular highlighting, which is similar in a few ways, but otherwise totally different. Note that detail textures add detail while the normal/bump/specular maps add an overly shiny plastic feel because almost every implementation of them to date is horribly overdone. <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' />

Cagey · February 2004

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Mouse @ Feb 12 2004, 03:31 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> I'm curious as to how much of an effect (if any) this would have on fps.  </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> 
By default, people wouldn't see a difference (in FPS or texturing) since you have to "opt in" with the console var to have the detail textures drawn.

If the implementation is decent, I'd expect at most double the amount of time required to draw each detail textured face; on a modern video card the hit is potentially minimal. A conservative estimate would be to double-count any polygon that has a detail texture when figuring w-poly counts, but if this is adopted I don't think mappers should have any additional restriction set since it's an optional feature.

Yamazaki · February 2004

Best mod implementation would be to have r_detailtextures 1 by default, and have an tickbox in the advanced options menu to turn it off. Probably only 10% - 20% of NS players would have to turn it off.

Anyways, I'm going to make some generic detail textures in 128x128 TGAs and post them here. I've already got a few that look good on a variety of surfaces. Uncompressed 128x128 24bit TGAs come out to 49kb, so thankfully they'll have a minimal impact on memory usage if a map uses a typical amount like 2 - 6 of them.

Silverwing · February 2004

Love the idea and the look.

It occurs to me that this might be an "easy" way to spruce up NS's look a bit without taxing the dev team too heavily... Unless the dev's do textures too? <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' />

Anyway, looks cool, please keep the screenshots flowing while you experiment, it is nice to see the progress.

Supernorn · February 2004

I've scratched ns_eclipse up with some of my experiementation with this detail texturing. I dont think wall_lab was the ideal thing to experiment with because the textures are rather clean and pretty, but a few dents and minor scratches in the wall make it look rather neat.

KungFuSquirrel · February 2004

supernorn: i'd be interested to see what you came up with, if you don't mind. catch me in #nightwatch or e-mail me or something. I was meaning to try it myself, but haven't gotten around to it yet.

DarkATi · February 2004

I'm too lazy to experiment. *falls over*
zzzZZZZzzzZZZZzzzZZ

but someone make a detail tex pack and I'll try it out.

~ DarkATi

Belgarion · February 2004

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (KungFuSquirrel @ Feb 11 2004, 11:39 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
Sure thing. <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /> I gave it a curves ajustment a la NS just to brighten it up a little. Might not be as mind-boggling here as it is in-game. I exagerrated the detail texture a bit just to test it.
<img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/uploads//post-4-1076564362.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image' /></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

OMG ITS GOING TO HIT ME! *ducks*

:edit: just had a thought. will the detail maps be rotated/stretched with the texture?

Supernorn · February 2004

Here is one screenie, I've sent two of them to KFS over Email (which I would of done sooner if my computer hadnt of crashed while opening Outlook Express <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /> )

Take a look at the scratches and dents on the wall.

Tequila · February 2004

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (KungFuSquirrel @ Feb 12 2004, 12:39 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> </div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Belgarion @ Feb 11 2004, 11:26 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (KungFuSquirrel @ Feb 11 2004, 11:17 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>it looked like the non-detailed panel was hovering at my face while the rest of the floor stayed down where it was. Insane optical illusion.
</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

might we be privy to a screenshot of this?</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

Sure thing. <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /> I gave it a curves ajustment a la NS just to brighten it up a little. Might not be as mind-boggling here as it is in-game. I exagerrated the detail texture a bit just to test it.  </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> 
Crazy, I see what you mean. The non-detailed panel does look like it's wafer-thin and floating.

prsearle · February 2004

Something I found out: the detail textures translate and rotate with the main texture. Also, the x and y scale factors in the _detail.txt file work as follows: a scale of 1.0 makes the detail texture repeat once for each occurance of the main texture. A scale of 2.0 makes it repeat twice for each occurance of the main texture. This works even if the detail texture is a different size from the main texture.

Soylent_green · February 2004

WTH am I doing wrong? <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif' />

NS refuses to set the command r_detailtextures 1(I have NS 3.0 b3, I am using steam). I wanna play around with this too <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif' />.

It simply says unknown command r_detailtextures. Any ideas?

edit: It does not work in other MODs either.

prsearle · February 2004

Odd. If you type "r_de" into the console, the little autocomplete box should have "r_detailtextures 0" and "r_detailtexturessupported 1" in it. This is what I get:

KungFuDiscoMonkey · February 2004

Looks pretty neat. I'm not sure if I fully understand how it all works but it looks like it has the potential to add some nice subtle detail in the maps. NS is already one of the best looking mods and it would be cool to make it look that much better.

Edit: Corrected Spelling. Man my brains been fried since my Calc 2 test today.

Tequila · February 2004

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (KungFuDiscoMonkey @ Feb 12 2004, 06:28 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Looks pretty neat. I'm not sure if I fully understand how it all works but it looks like it has the potential to add some nice suttle (sp?) detail in the maps. NS is already one of the best looking mods and it would be cool to make it look that much better.  </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> 
Subtle.

Question: Does normal Steam HL Single Player have detail textures built in? If so, I might give it a whirl again.

Detail Textures for NS?

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