<!--QuoteBegin-Sizer+Mar 9 2004, 10:59 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Sizer @ Mar 9 2004, 10:59 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Went 65-5 (2 deaths as fade) a few hours ago, while playing carelessly. I could blink into the marine start, stay on the ground long enough for 4 swipe attempts while 2 HMGs, a shotgunner at point blank range, and gl spammer were throwing everything they had at me. No matter what my health was, I would be back in the marine start with 90-100% armor within a few seconds. I would have killed more marines out of marine start, but most didn't have the chance to venture far.
Surely, the task of going focus as a skulk, saving up points for fade, then hitting level 10 ASAP is not difficult at all, and far too easy. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> yeap its exactly like you said.. what people dont realize is if a fade blinks into a large group of marines MOST of those marines will hit other marines and cant get through to the fade, bullets DONT travell through your own teammates... Thats why I fade can survive when attacking a large group of marines and then blink away...
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->what people dont realize is if a fade blinks into a large group of marines MOST of those marines will hit other marines and cant get through to the fade, bullets DONT travell through your own teammates... Thats why I fade can survive when attacking a large group of marines and then blink away... <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is so true. I have a hard time killing fades in marine spawn because other marines "cover" the fade. When I am alone fades are annoying but no real danger because they run before they can swipe two times (or they die).
<!--QuoteBegin-Wasian+Mar 8 2004, 05:14 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Wasian @ Mar 8 2004, 05:14 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Balance it for classic, and let combat end up how it will. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I second that motion! Bring back the power of xenocide!
Maybe the second unlock ability in Co could cost 2 points, so we could un-nerf hive 3 abilities.
<!--QuoteBegin-Doobie Dan+Mar 11 2004, 09:44 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Doobie Dan @ Mar 11 2004, 09:44 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Wasian+Mar 8 2004, 05:14 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Wasian @ Mar 8 2004, 05:14 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Balance it for classic, and let combat end up how it will. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I second that motion! Bring back the power of xenocide!
Maybe the second unlock ability in Co could cost 2 points, so we could un-nerf hive 3 abilities. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Xenocide was made stronger in 3.0. It deals 220 instead of 200 from 2.01.
<!--QuoteBegin-Forlorn+Mar 11 2004, 02:51 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Forlorn @ Mar 11 2004, 02:51 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Doobie Dan+Mar 11 2004, 09:44 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Doobie Dan @ Mar 11 2004, 09:44 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Wasian+Mar 8 2004, 05:14 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Wasian @ Mar 8 2004, 05:14 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Balance it for classic, and let combat end up how it will. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I second that motion! Bring back the power of xenocide!
Maybe the second unlock ability in Co could cost 2 points, so we could un-nerf hive 3 abilities. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Xenocide was made stronger in 3.0. It deals 220 instead of 200 from 2.01. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> pwnt.
Fade is currently either overpowered or a waste of res. For those that can like lagga it is an almost invincible tank. For those that cant its a waste of time and res.
The fade is basically wrong. I think it needs a redesign of weapons, use and cost. You cannot balance something that is so fundementaly wrong in so many ways by upping the costs and nerfing the damage you have to throw it out, start again and then balance the next one.
For example it is impossible to balance the AWP in CS, a newb will hit nothing and it is worthless but a top clan player will hit everyone and kill them straight off. As a team game this makes it no fun for the enemy or the rest of the team.
<!--QuoteBegin-Forlorn+Mar 11 2004, 02:51 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Forlorn @ Mar 11 2004, 02:51 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Doobie Dan+Mar 11 2004, 09:44 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Doobie Dan @ Mar 11 2004, 09:44 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Wasian+Mar 8 2004, 05:14 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Wasian @ Mar 8 2004, 05:14 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Balance it for classic, and let combat end up how it will. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I second that motion! Bring back the power of xenocide!
Maybe the second unlock ability in Co could cost 2 points, so we could un-nerf hive 3 abilities. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Xenocide was made stronger in 3.0. It deals 220 instead of 200 from 2.01. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> It used to do double damage to structures.
Just as a side note, Xeno no longer does blast damage?!? Why in the hell not?
Ok, Fades. In combat they are extremely broken. Their brokenness lies in the fact that it is Combat. Let me explain. A fade with regen as its only defensive upgrade will die to 3 or maybe 4 level 3 shotty hits. That much can be dealt to it by an experienced marine in no time. However, add carapace and celerity to the mix, as well as the (IMO well-documented) crouching hitbox bugginess, and you have the unstoppable ub3r flying tank unit that all marine players loathe. I was on an alien team with pandas | Romano ^_^ and even though the marine team had some talented players on it, he went about 75:1. No joke. I sat in rine spawn cloaked just to watch him. He would blink in, swipe a few times, usually get a kill, blink out and metabolize. There was NEVER a chance that marines would kill him.
I don't care about the learning curve, that should not happen. Even the comparison to the AWP falls short, because only an excellent hacker with an AWP would ever get close to that ratio.
However, in Classic they are fine, so to Combat I say: screw it. Combat is intended (i think) to introduce new players to NS, who then "graduate from Combat school" and go play some of the real game. For those experienced ub3r-fades: don't play Combat, you will only **** people off.
<!--QuoteBegin-Forlorn+Mar 11 2004, 09:51 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Forlorn @ Mar 11 2004, 09:51 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Doobie Dan+Mar 11 2004, 09:44 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Doobie Dan @ Mar 11 2004, 09:44 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Wasian+Mar 8 2004, 05:14 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Wasian @ Mar 8 2004, 05:14 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Balance it for classic, and let combat end up how it will. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I second that motion! Bring back the power of xenocide!
Maybe the second unlock ability in Co could cost 2 points, so we could un-nerf hive 3 abilities. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Xenocide was made stronger in 3.0. It deals 220 instead of 200 from 2.01. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Hmm... wow, I'm confused. Sorry to keep the thread off-topic, but was there some other fundamental change to xeno? It SEEMS to me at least that it's not quite as effective as it was in 2.01. I'm not even talking about structures, but player damage. Was the splash damage radius reduced? Or does an armor 3 LA marine have more HP than he used to?
<!--QuoteBegin-Lee Harvey+Mar 11 2004, 05:18 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Lee Harvey @ Mar 11 2004, 05:18 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> ...will die to 3 or maybe 4 level 3 shotty hits. ... 75:1. I don't care about the learning curve, that should not happen. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I've seen similar ratios in classic thanks to an elite fade and competant marine team. I think regardless of the prowess of a single player that player should not be able to pin an entire team. A skilled fade can require that there be 5 marines together for any of them to survive and on a 16player game this means that trhe whole team needs to stick together. It also means that they need to protect any structure they hope to keep, as there is only one group they end up stuck in base twizzelling round watching a fade, if they ignore him for a second someone dies. Every 5-15 seconds this fade flies through and takes a swipe, every now and then someone dies. Mean while the rest of the aliens have pretty much free run of the map. The fade will hold the marines in base for 5 or 10 minutes, he might only kill 7 ort 8 of them in that time but the damage is done.
I'm not talking about newbie marines here either, you jkust cant get 4 point blank shotty hits (which is what a cara fade will take) on a good fade with less than 5 marines in the room.
I dont care about combat, it sucks. When ur aliens all u need is like u and a m8 with somin like focus, skill2 and then just spawn camp. leap bite with skulk just rules when they have no armour upgrades they can basicly do nothing. If they put waved spawns in it be better but atm spawn camping just spoils combat.
Well anyway, i dont think fades are too much trouble a lvl3 HMG and the fade might as well type kill in console.
I think it was v2.0 or before when fades were like mega nasty. hive 2 and acid rockets but the acid rockets killed a LA marine in 2 hits. Now they do next to nothing, if the marine has medspam (resupply) in combat then acid rockets are just a waste.
In combat fades can regen so fast they can get back into the fight before you fill up your clip again. It's rediculous and they carry in 750 hitpoints of damage absorbtion.
It's crazy, rediculous, and makes fading so powerful in combat it's just retarded.
In regular NS, kill a fade and it's 50 res down the drain. Also, they can't have regen/carapace/focus/celerity/metabolize in classic either.
I think the problem with fades is that they become so much more effective with upgrades from chamber abilities, more so than any other class.
In classic getting another set of chambers plus another hive makes the fade that much better. In co it's only about 4 more kills till you become that much better.
So yes, fades are way too good in combat but I'd hate to see them nerfed just for combat because I think they fit in fine with classic. In classic I've seen fades LMG'ed down (yes, even good ones), SG'ed down, HMG'ed down, teamwork works very very well at countering fades in classic.
So however fades are fixed in combat, it must be done in a way so that it doesn't touch classic.
Just as I said the only problem with fade is blink. Without blink the fade would be a waste of res and time. Nobody would play fade because a single marine would kill it easily.
BUT people would not complain that much about fade if they learned to hurt it. Everytime I play marine I see other marines shooting crouching fades in the face. Well, they don't even hit the fade. This isn't their fault because most players don't read these forums so they just don't know there is a problem with crouching fades. And it seems like some fade players know there is a problem so they crouch all the time when attacking.
A fade is and should be a good hit and run unit so a ratio of 4:1 is fine (and this is the ratio you see against decent marines (I mean those marines that don't shoot a HMG clip into the fade and wonder why it didn't die)).
Last but not least a single fade cannot finish the game all alone. I have seen dozens of games with one or two good fades (stats like 60:10 and the best marine had 30 kills) which the marines won in the end.
Anyone remember the bugged onos hitboxes? Most people just didn't know how to hurt them so it went like "omg onos, we lose" but a few players could hurt them easily because they knew where to hit them. Luckily the onos was not made weaker just because some people did not hit it or it would have died pretty fast to those that knew where to hit it.
Yes, classic fades can die easily, even very good ones. (marines can block the exits and kill them easily) Classic fades seem to work fine.
Upon thinking about it, I have to agree that the fade how he currently is cannot be balanced completely. Not that it's broken, but that the design of the fade directly makes it either invincible or crap. Perhaps the fade needs to go through a lerk-like reconstruction. Mainly that comes down to blink and its purpose. I remember eaglec (I think) had a large thread about changing the fade in the consti forum. Perhaps some of those ideas could be reposted to see how the masses think about them.
And romano^_^ should never be taken as an example. Back when there was health up on levels and skulks had 240 hp at lvl 10 he was just as invincible. Aliens have a higher learning curve than marines if you want to be good at them. And romano just happens to be at the top of that curve. The curve should be just like grades in college: a bell shape graph. That is there are some people who suck, some who are dominant, but most are average. That sort of distribution of skill is really all you can aim for in balance. Some people are just better and some are worse, there's no escaping that.
<!--QuoteBegin-Wasian+Mar 11 2004, 08:03 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Wasian @ Mar 11 2004, 08:03 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I remember eaglec (I think) had a large thread about changing the fade in the consti forum. Perhaps some of those ideas could be reposted to see how the masses think about them.
The curve should be just like grades in college: a bell shape graph. That is there are some people who suck, some who are dominant, but most are average. That sort of distribution of skill is really all you can aim for in balance. Some people are just better and some are worse, there's no escaping that. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> True but the best player faced with an entire team of average to poor players should really lose. If I may reflect to CS (which is not NS I know but it is balanced) you get one elite player out in the open surrounded by 10 newbies and he will more likely than not fail to survive the encounter. Even if you give them smg's and him his choice of armourment and equipment one of them will get lucky and he will be dead. On the other hand let this player use tactics he will take them on one at a time and they will die.
It should be a bell shaped curve but the top end of that curve should not be as powerful as it currently is, and the bottom end should not be as weak.
While not as insanely dominant as in Combat, an adept Fade in Classic is still quite powerful, given that they are usually available within 5 minutes. A Fade at that time easily outclasses an equally adept small group of Marines, armed with 50res of equipment. The Marines do not always have the luxury of blockable exits (e.g. try 'blocking' a Fade in TGV, using five Marines).
Skill (combined with the current Blink) plays too large a role in determining the effectiveness of a Fade. This is a little ironic, considering that NS emphasizes teamwork, rather than individual skill.
<!--QuoteBegin-Verthandi+Mar 29 2004, 01:05 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Verthandi @ Mar 29 2004, 01:05 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> While not as insanely dominant as in Combat, an adept Fade in Classic is still quite powerful, given that they are usually available within 5 minutes. A Fade at that time easily outclasses an equally adept small group of Marines, armed with 50res of equipment. The Marines do not always have the luxury of blockable exits (e.g. try 'blocking' a Fade in TGV, using five Marines).
Skill (combined with the current Blink) plays too large a role in determining the effectiveness of a Fade. This is a little ironic, considering that NS emphasizes teamwork, rather than individual skill. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> First of all, if 5 marines with shotguns can't kill one fade who blinks in (remember, all you have to do is have everyone shoot it once.. hell, you only need 4 shots so all you really need is 4 marines with a SG to waste a fade), then your team lacks skill and is probably getting wasted by skulks.
Second, teamwork is still highly nessesary to use as a fade. It's not a one man slaughtering machine of death. However, when skulks are used in combo with skulks, you can do a lot of damage.
Coincidentally, just yesterday I had a game where they could. Four rines in nano (dbl res-node), blinked in, instantly toasted.
When this happens three times in a row... <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif' /><!--endemo--> (And no, I'm not a new player -played since 1.03 and can often do pretty well against clanners)
I've been commanding in pubs, pugs, scrims, and matches on a constant basis for over a year now and I think I've come upon both the main problem and a solution for the current fade imbalence.
Yes, as a number of people had posted earlier, an unskilled fade will quickly get mowed down in a 3+ marine confrontation in classic. If you look at the numbers it seems like it'd be easy to get three shotgun pumps into a fade between three people, and for those who just started playing fade it always is. An unskilled fade can not survive an encounter with four+ marines in my experience, unless those marines are entirely incompetant.
Now, here's the flip side: once a fade learns how to use blink, it's an entirely different ball game. With regen a fade can easily fly into a base, get one or two swipes in, and then fly out without anyone having time to react. The situation is even worse out in the open, as pairs or threes of marines can't stand a chance far from base. I've commanded games where an entire team of skilled players isn't enough to take out a fade with everyone camping base, and I've also been a fade and done the same in scrims and matches.
The issue is that it's too difficult to hit a fade when they're blinking. Skilled fades crouch-blink to take advantage of the hitbox bug, and with celerity in addition to the blink speed even the best marine is lucky to put more than 10 bullets into the fade. As such I can simply fly around the marine team, wait for them to shoot all of their ammo at me, and then move in for the kill with regen keeping me above 100 armor.
I personally am convinced that the reason the skill curve is weighted at the ends of the spectrum rather than at the center is because of blink and the insane kill:death ratio boost it gives once it is mastered. You simply can not hit the fade when he is blinking for all intents and purposes, and as such you are forced to rely on very sketchy "blocking" techniques.
This is what I propose: Increase the hitbox of the fade while they are blinking. As others have mentioned before me, it's not that the fade itself is at the incorrect armor/health balance, but instead that they can not be hit while blinking. Increasing the hit box size would do two things:
1) Reduce the offensive effectiveness of blink without harming its intended purpose in any way. Blink would still be utilized in hit and run tactics and it would be just as fast as before, but now you couldn't simply fly around in hallways to drain marine ammo without a care.
2) Bring the gap in skill between the untrained and the veteran fades closer together. Since blink+regen would no longer garuntee your survival in encounters, it would greatly reduce the massive ratios currently seen by the skilled players. Conversely, new players would still notice a massive gain in their abilities once they mastered it, but the change wouldn't be as abrupt.
Anyway, that's my idea: Increase the size of the fade hitbox while they're blinking. What do you guys think?
<!--QuoteBegin-Forlorn+Mar 29 2004, 06:31 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Forlorn @ Mar 29 2004, 06:31 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> First of all, if 5 marines with shotguns can't kill one fade who blinks in (remember, all you have to do is have everyone shoot it once.. hell, you only need 4 shots so all you really need is 4 marines with a SG to waste a fade), then your team lacks skill and is probably getting wasted by skulks. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> No, that would be the Fade who lacked skill. That sounds great in theory, but in practice a Fade will rarely put himself in a position to be within shotty range of 5 marines at once. In practice, a Fade can blink in and blink out so fast that if he has an intimate knowledge of how long he can survive in a given situation and how long it takes him to escape, he can survive almost indefinitely unless he is unlucky. You're right, Fades can't usually blink into a room with 5 skilled shotties and blink out with 5 dead marines behind him, but he can wear them down over time and the primary factor in beating him is luck. No alien species, Fade included, should survive a direct encounter with a team of marines with shotties or above, and even with upgraded LMGs the Fade should be too outgunned to attack them with so little risk.
Yesterday we won a game as Aliens where I went early fade; the game ended with me somewhere in the vicinity of 40:1, with the death being as a skulk. No, the marine team was not newbish, they were all skilled or decent players and they had a good comm. Our team was good as well, but I know that I as a Fade more or less single-handedly prevented them from accomplishing anything on the map, starting around 3-4 minutes into the game. Taking care of a SINGLE skilled Fade takes a massive amount of effort from marine team, and no matter how much money you put down on equipment a cautious Fade will still almost always survive. Whether or not it actually imbalances the game isn't the only concern. It just isn't fun for the game to pivot around one player so much, and it is very much not fun for the marine team to lose the game because they were constantly harassed by one skilled player that they just couldn't kill.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->In practice, a Fade can blink in and blink out so fast that if he has an intimate knowledge of how long he can survive in a given situation and how long it takes him to escape, he can survive almost indefinitely unless he is unlucky<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
... or meets one or two good marines (this goes for combat, in classic you need just one or two average marines to crush a fade).
All those stories just tell one thing. Most marines don't know how to hurt fades. I see fades crouching at the cc while 3-4 marines with hmg and shotgun just hold fire but the fade doesn't die. I see fades trying to crouch at the cc and die in less than 3 seconds to a single marine.
One decent HA/Shotgun marine is dangerous. Two HA/Shotgun marines are fades' doom. Three or more marines are fade food because they block each other all the time. When you blink into a room with five marines who have a free line of fire you are dead in less than a second.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->No alien species, Fade included, should survive a direct encounter with a team of marines with shotties or above, and even with upgraded LMGs the Fade should be too outgunned to attack them with so little risk.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This basically means aliens should just surrender when marines move as a team? In theory aliens could attack together at the same time but this will never ever happen. One or two aliens will always be the first who move into the line of fire so they should die and all aliens that follow should die too?
Well, I got your point but what about a single marine entering a room with five skulks? I see over and over again exactly that situation happen and the marine kills most of them or even all of them.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Taking care of a SINGLE skilled Fade takes a massive amount of effort from marine team, and no matter how much money you put down on equipment a cautious Fade will still almost always survive<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is a problem of bad marine teams/commanders. We saw the same thing happen in former times with "vent spore lerks". Half the marine team just watched the vent while the lerk spored them. Meanwhile the other aliens secured hives and res towers until they just crushed the marine base.
Just ignore the fade and stay with your HA train. A network of phase gates will easily enable the marines to drive away the fade from secured hives. Maybe fades are a problem when marines don't have equipment or upgrades to fight them back but what's the point of those games? It's already over.
<!--QuoteBegin-Zek+Mar 29 2004, 09:46 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Zek @ Mar 29 2004, 09:46 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Forlorn+Mar 29 2004, 06:31 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Forlorn @ Mar 29 2004, 06:31 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> First of all, if 5 marines with shotguns can't kill one fade who blinks in (remember, all you have to do is have everyone shoot it once.. hell, you only need 4 shots so all you really need is 4 marines with a SG to waste a fade), then your team lacks skill and is probably getting wasted by skulks. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> No, that would be the Fade who lacked skill. That sounds great in theory, but in practice a Fade will rarely put himself in a position to be within shotty range of 5 marines at once. In practice, a Fade can blink in and blink out so fast that if he has an intimate knowledge of how long he can survive in a given situation and how long it takes him to escape, he can survive almost indefinitely unless he is unlucky. You're right, Fades can't usually blink into a room with 5 skilled shotties and blink out with 5 dead marines behind him, but he can wear them down over time and the primary factor in beating him is luck. No alien species, Fade included, should survive a direct encounter with a team of marines with shotties or above, and even with upgraded LMGs the Fade should be too outgunned to attack them with so little risk.
Yesterday we won a game as Aliens where I went early fade; the game ended with me somewhere in the vicinity of 40:1, with the death being as a skulk. No, the marine team was not newbish, they were all skilled or decent players and they had a good comm. Our team was good as well, but I know that I as a Fade more or less single-handedly prevented them from accomplishing anything on the map, starting around 3-4 minutes into the game. Taking care of a SINGLE skilled Fade takes a massive amount of effort from marine team, and no matter how much money you put down on equipment a cautious Fade will still almost always survive. Whether or not it actually imbalances the game isn't the only concern. It just isn't fun for the game to pivot around one player so much, and it is very much not fun for the marine team to lose the game because they were constantly harassed by one skilled player that they just couldn't kill. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Zek, you've said it perfectly.
oh so its not ok for the fade to end the game by himself but the JP/GLer bouncing around like he is on PCP is just fine huh? only difference is the JP/GLer doesn't kill as many players while winning the game. *edit: As the JPer doesn't even need to bother killing them... where as the fade cannot simply hang around Marine start and whack the CC.*
A jetpacker, particularly one who doesn't even have a proper gun, is moving bait in classic. He is going to have skulks, lerks, and enterprising fades literally fly up his nose.
In combat, of course, a jetpacker can just wrap himself in a cozy nuclear holocaust and have resupply keep him going. But that's why Combat is Stupid.
<!--QuoteBegin-Zek+Mar 29 2004, 09:46 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Zek @ Mar 29 2004, 09:46 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-Forlorn+Mar 29 2004, 06:31 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Forlorn @ Mar 29 2004, 06:31 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> First of all, if 5 marines with shotguns can't kill one fade who blinks in (remember, all you have to do is have everyone shoot it once.. hell, you only need 4 shots so all you really need is 4 marines with a SG to waste a fade), then your team lacks skill and is probably getting wasted by skulks. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> No, that would be the Fade who lacked skill. That sounds great in theory, but in practice a Fade will rarely put himself in a position to be within shotty range of 5 marines at once. In practice, a Fade can blink in and blink out so fast that if he has an intimate knowledge of how long he can survive in a given situation and how long it takes him to escape, he can survive almost indefinitely unless he is unlucky. You're right, Fades can't usually blink into a room with 5 skilled shotties and blink out with 5 dead marines behind him, but he can wear them down over time and the primary factor in beating him is luck. No alien species, Fade included, should survive a direct encounter with a team of marines with shotties or above, and even with upgraded LMGs the Fade should be too outgunned to attack them with so little risk.
Yesterday we won a game as Aliens where I went early fade; the game ended with me somewhere in the vicinity of 40:1, with the death being as a skulk. No, the marine team was not newbish, they were all skilled or decent players and they had a good comm. Our team was good as well, but I know that I as a Fade more or less single-handedly prevented them from accomplishing anything on the map, starting around 3-4 minutes into the game. Taking care of a SINGLE skilled Fade takes a massive amount of effort from marine team, and no matter how much money you put down on equipment a cautious Fade will still almost always survive. Whether or not it actually imbalances the game isn't the only concern. It just isn't fun for the game to pivot around one player so much, and it is very much not fun for the marine team to lose the game because they were constantly harassed by one skilled player that they just couldn't kill.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Did you encounter shotguns?
Seeing as the distinction between skilled and average is always going to be there, any nerfs to the fade will only make the good fades (the minority) a bit weaker and the average fades (the majority) worse than useless.
Rather than nerfing the fade (though maybe it needs some, I'm not sure), I'd much rather see some system of class limits in place - e.g. 1 hive = 1-2 fades only, with no cap for 2 and 3 hives. I've recently noticed the trend for about 3 people to fade at once early in the game (before second hive) and it's pretty much gg, nextmap already. A symptom of them being cheaper, probably. Killing one fade early on is a monumental task for marines, killing 3 is well nigh impossible, even if the fades aren't of the elite skill bracket. It makes for frustrating (and short) games when masses of second-top lifeforms appear at a time when marines probably aren't particularly well-equipped to handle even one.
Note: I'm only suggesting something like this be applied to fades (and onos, I guess, though I've never seen a 1 hive onos-herd before <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo--> ) and only in early games (1 hive situation). If the aliens had 2 hives and lost one, no reinstatement of the limit. Not saying that HA, JP or anything should be limited - if a comm has secured enough res to upgrade and then kit out his entire team (for a team of 5 that's gonna be something like 500 res, on top of the other essentials .. ips, rts, obs etc. etc. etc.), then well and good.. let him have his HA train.
I realise that limits would just annoy people who want to play fade but can't because someone else got there first, but n00bs die quick and a good fade is a good fade (an asset to the team, whoever they may be). It might promote some scrooges to spend their res on that hive or chambers instead of selfishly evolving and then expecting someone else to spend their res to support them.
Anyway. It's got flaws, (2 hive lockdowns, perhaps :/) but if it could promote prolonged conflict instead of an early rush of higher lifeforms... <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif' /><!--endemo-->
What i think is that fades are too expensive and too strong. Why?
Alien teams are always playing on fast fade...now the game deciding question for the marines is: are we able to take the fade down or are we not? If the fades die fast, the aliens are doomend and will just get crushed by the marines. Until the next aliens are able to fade, they'll probably have already lost the game versus some decent marines. But if the rines are not able to kill the fade, they will simply lose the game by seeing all of their res towers going down one by one while the aliens expand all over the map making fades really cheap due to the large amount of res towers they got. So the skill of the fades decides the game and thus making it less interesting. Making the fades costing a lot less and at the same time being weaker would make the game a lot more interesting: The marines would really have a good chance to kill those fades while the loss of a fade early in the game wouldn't result in the loss of the round for the aliens. The whole game won't be decided by the fade dies/dies not question.
<!--QuoteBegin-Zek+Mar 29 2004, 09:46 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Zek @ Mar 29 2004, 09:46 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Forlorn+Mar 29 2004, 06:31 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Forlorn @ Mar 29 2004, 06:31 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> First of all, if 5 marines with shotguns can't kill one fade who blinks in (remember, all you have to do is have everyone shoot it once.. hell, you only need 4 shots so all you really need is 4 marines with a SG to waste a fade), then your team lacks skill and is probably getting wasted by skulks. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> No, that would be the Fade who lacked skill. That sounds great in theory, but in practice a Fade will rarely put himself in a position to be within shotty range of 5 marines at once. In practice, a Fade can blink in and blink out so fast that if he has an intimate knowledge of how long he can survive in a given situation and how long it takes him to escape, he can survive almost indefinitely unless he is unlucky. You're right, Fades can't usually blink into a room with 5 skilled shotties and blink out with 5 dead marines behind him, but he can wear them down over time and the primary factor in beating him is luck. No alien species, Fade included, should survive a direct encounter with a team of marines with shotties or above, and even with upgraded LMGs the Fade should be too outgunned to attack them with so little risk.
Yesterday we won a game as Aliens where I went early fade; the game ended with me somewhere in the vicinity of 40:1, with the death being as a skulk. No, the marine team was not newbish, they were all skilled or decent players and they had a good comm. Our team was good as well, but I know that I as a Fade more or less single-handedly prevented them from accomplishing anything on the map, starting around 3-4 minutes into the game. Taking care of a SINGLE skilled Fade takes a massive amount of effort from marine team, and no matter how much money you put down on equipment a cautious Fade will still almost always survive. Whether or not it actually imbalances the game isn't the only concern. It just isn't fun for the game to pivot around one player so much, and it is very much not fun for the marine team to lose the game because they were constantly harassed by one skilled player that they just couldn't kill. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Sounds like that marine team had no coordination, skill, or you seriously outskilled them.
They couldn't aim, and they couldn't compete with a fade who knew what he was doing. What is so bad about that?
Also, saying a fade will not put himself in a position to be in range of 5 Shotties at once; if the marines are grouped up this is impossible.
The biggest difference between the fade of 2.01 and 3.00 is that the fade before, due to seriously screwed up hitboxes, had no substance to it. The only marines who could place direct shots on it was the marine who was being attacked and maybe one other marine close by.
Whereas, in 3.00, a fade can be easily hit by LMG's, Shotties from a distance, and HMG's totally wreck fades as the spread of an HMG is covered by the size of the fade.
So yes, I think it is the fault of the marine team. Remember, the marine team is the one that is more dependant on skill. Never forget that if the marine team had a bunch of aimbots, they would never lose. Better players constantly apporach a better and better accuracy, meaning they improve more and more. Whereas the aliens, can only do so much; move this way and that way, bhop, blink in this direction and then in that direction, etc. etc., but a good bunch of marines who can track you will have you toasted in no time.
Comments
Surely, the task of going focus as a skulk, saving up points for fade, then hitting level 10 ASAP is not difficult at all, and far too easy. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
yeap its exactly like you said..
what people dont realize is if a fade blinks into a large group of marines MOST of those marines will hit other marines and cant get through to the fade, bullets DONT travell through your own teammates... Thats why I fade can survive when attacking a large group of marines and then blink away...
This is so true. I have a hard time killing fades in marine spawn because other marines "cover" the fade. When I am alone fades are annoying but no real danger because they run before they can swipe two times (or they die).
I second that motion! Bring back the power of xenocide!
Maybe the second unlock ability in Co could cost 2 points, so we could un-nerf hive 3 abilities.
I second that motion! Bring back the power of xenocide!
Maybe the second unlock ability in Co could cost 2 points, so we could un-nerf hive 3 abilities. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Xenocide was made stronger in 3.0. It deals 220 instead of 200 from 2.01.
I second that motion! Bring back the power of xenocide!
Maybe the second unlock ability in Co could cost 2 points, so we could un-nerf hive 3 abilities. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Xenocide was made stronger in 3.0. It deals 220 instead of 200 from 2.01. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
pwnt.
The fade is basically wrong. I think it needs a redesign of weapons, use and cost. You cannot balance something that is so fundementaly wrong in so many ways by upping the costs and nerfing the damage you have to throw it out, start again and then balance the next one.
For example it is impossible to balance the AWP in CS, a newb will hit nothing and it is worthless but a top clan player will hit everyone and kill them straight off. As a team game this makes it no fun for the enemy or the rest of the team.
Currently the fade is just a super-lerk,
I second that motion! Bring back the power of xenocide!
Maybe the second unlock ability in Co could cost 2 points, so we could un-nerf hive 3 abilities. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Xenocide was made stronger in 3.0. It deals 220 instead of 200 from 2.01. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
It used to do double damage to structures.
Ok, Fades. In combat they are extremely broken. Their brokenness lies in the fact that it is Combat. Let me explain. A fade with regen as its only defensive upgrade will die to 3 or maybe 4 level 3 shotty hits. That much can be dealt to it by an experienced marine in no time. However, add carapace and celerity to the mix, as well as the (IMO well-documented) crouching hitbox bugginess, and you have the unstoppable ub3r flying tank unit that all marine players loathe. I was on an alien team with pandas | Romano ^_^ and even though the marine team had some talented players on it, he went about 75:1. No joke. I sat in rine spawn cloaked just to watch him. He would blink in, swipe a few times, usually get a kill, blink out and metabolize. There was NEVER a chance that marines would kill him.
I don't care about the learning curve, that should not happen. Even the comparison to the AWP falls short, because only an excellent hacker with an AWP would ever get close to that ratio.
However, in Classic they are fine, so to Combat I say: screw it. Combat is intended (i think) to introduce new players to NS, who then "graduate from Combat school" and go play some of the real game. For those experienced ub3r-fades: don't play Combat, you will only **** people off.
I second that motion! Bring back the power of xenocide!
Maybe the second unlock ability in Co could cost 2 points, so we could un-nerf hive 3 abilities. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Xenocide was made stronger in 3.0. It deals 220 instead of 200 from 2.01. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Hmm... wow, I'm confused. Sorry to keep the thread off-topic, but was there some other fundamental change to xeno? It SEEMS to me at least that it's not quite as effective as it was in 2.01. I'm not even talking about structures, but player damage. Was the splash damage radius reduced? Or does an armor 3 LA marine have more HP than he used to?
I don't care about the learning curve, that should not happen. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I've seen similar ratios in classic thanks to an elite fade and competant marine team. I think regardless of the prowess of a single player that player should not be able to pin an entire team. A skilled fade can require that there be 5 marines together for any of them to survive and on a 16player game this means that trhe whole team needs to stick together. It also means that they need to protect any structure they hope to keep, as there is only one group they end up stuck in base twizzelling round watching a fade, if they ignore him for a second someone dies. Every 5-15 seconds this fade flies through and takes a swipe, every now and then someone dies. Mean while the rest of the aliens have pretty much free run of the map. The fade will hold the marines in base for 5 or 10 minutes, he might only kill 7 ort 8 of them in that time but the damage is done.
I'm not talking about newbie marines here either, you jkust cant get 4 point blank shotty hits (which is what a cara fade will take) on a good fade with less than 5 marines in the room.
Well anyway, i dont think fades are too much trouble a lvl3 HMG and the fade might as well type kill in console.
I think it was v2.0 or before when fades were like mega nasty. hive 2 and acid rockets but the acid rockets killed a LA marine in 2 hits. Now they do next to nothing, if the marine has medspam (resupply) in combat then acid rockets are just a waste.
It's crazy, rediculous, and makes fading so powerful in combat it's just retarded.
In regular NS, kill a fade and it's 50 res down the drain. Also, they can't have regen/carapace/focus/celerity/metabolize in classic either.
I think the problem with fades is that they become so much more effective with upgrades from chamber abilities, more so than any other class.
In classic getting another set of chambers plus another hive makes the fade that much better. In co it's only about 4 more kills till you become that much better.
So yes, fades are way too good in combat but I'd hate to see them nerfed just for combat because I think they fit in fine with classic. In classic I've seen fades LMG'ed down (yes, even good ones), SG'ed down, HMG'ed down, teamwork works very very well at countering fades in classic.
So however fades are fixed in combat, it must be done in a way so that it doesn't touch classic.
BUT people would not complain that much about fade if they learned to hurt it. Everytime I play marine I see other marines shooting crouching fades in the face. Well, they don't even hit the fade. This isn't their fault because most players don't read these forums so they just don't know there is a problem with crouching fades. And it seems like some fade players know there is a problem so they crouch all the time when attacking.
A fade is and should be a good hit and run unit so a ratio of 4:1 is fine (and this is the ratio you see against decent marines (I mean those marines that don't shoot a HMG clip into the fade and wonder why it didn't die)).
Last but not least a single fade cannot finish the game all alone. I have seen dozens of games with one or two good fades (stats like 60:10 and the best marine had 30 kills) which the marines won in the end.
Anyone remember the bugged onos hitboxes? Most people just didn't know how to hurt them so it went like "omg onos, we lose" but a few players could hurt them easily because they knew where to hit them. Luckily the onos was not made weaker just because some people did not hit it or it would have died pretty fast to those that knew where to hit it.
Upon thinking about it, I have to agree that the fade how he currently is cannot be balanced completely. Not that it's broken, but that the design of the fade directly makes it either invincible or crap. Perhaps the fade needs to go through a lerk-like reconstruction. Mainly that comes down to blink and its purpose. I remember eaglec (I think) had a large thread about changing the fade in the consti forum. Perhaps some of those ideas could be reposted to see how the masses think about them.
And romano^_^ should never be taken as an example. Back when there was health up on levels and skulks had 240 hp at lvl 10 he was just as invincible. Aliens have a higher learning curve than marines if you want to be good at them. And romano just happens to be at the top of that curve. The curve should be just like grades in college: a bell shape graph. That is there are some people who suck, some who are dominant, but most are average. That sort of distribution of skill is really all you can aim for in balance. Some people are just better and some are worse, there's no escaping that.
please don't change how the fade is now
The curve should be just like grades in college: a bell shape graph. That is there are some people who suck, some who are dominant, but most are average. That sort of distribution of skill is really all you can aim for in balance. Some people are just better and some are worse, there's no escaping that. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
True but the best player faced with an entire team of average to poor players should really lose. If I may reflect to CS (which is not NS I know but it is balanced) you get one elite player out in the open surrounded by 10 newbies and he will more likely than not fail to survive the encounter. Even if you give them smg's and him his choice of armourment and equipment one of them will get lucky and he will be dead. On the other hand let this player use tactics he will take them on one at a time and they will die.
It should be a bell shaped curve but the top end of that curve should not be as powerful as it currently is, and the bottom end should not be as weak.
Those topics:-
<a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?act=ST&f=5&t=61954' target='_blank'>http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/in...=ST&f=5&t=61954</a>
<a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=52691' target='_blank'>http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/in...showtopic=52691</a>
Interestingly there is plenty of support in both threads but the ideas that come up are quite different.
Skill (combined with the current Blink) plays too large a role in determining the effectiveness of a Fade. This is a little ironic, considering that NS emphasizes teamwork, rather than individual skill.
Skill (combined with the current Blink) plays too large a role in determining the effectiveness of a Fade. This is a little ironic, considering that NS emphasizes teamwork, rather than individual skill. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
First of all, if 5 marines with shotguns can't kill one fade who blinks in (remember, all you have to do is have everyone shoot it once.. hell, you only need 4 shots so all you really need is 4 marines with a SG to waste a fade), then your team lacks skill and is probably getting wasted by skulks.
Second, teamwork is still highly nessesary to use as a fade. It's not a one man slaughtering machine of death. However, when skulks are used in combo with skulks, you can do a lot of damage.
When this happens three times in a row... <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif' /><!--endemo--> (And no, I'm not a new player -played since 1.03 and can often do pretty well against clanners)
Yes, as a number of people had posted earlier, an unskilled fade will quickly get mowed down in a 3+ marine confrontation in classic. If you look at the numbers it seems like it'd be easy to get three shotgun pumps into a fade between three people, and for those who just started playing fade it always is. An unskilled fade can not survive an encounter with four+ marines in my experience, unless those marines are entirely incompetant.
Now, here's the flip side: once a fade learns how to use blink, it's an entirely different ball game. With regen a fade can easily fly into a base, get one or two swipes in, and then fly out without anyone having time to react. The situation is even worse out in the open, as pairs or threes of marines can't stand a chance far from base. I've commanded games where an entire team of skilled players isn't enough to take out a fade with everyone camping base, and I've also been a fade and done the same in scrims and matches.
The issue is that it's too difficult to hit a fade when they're blinking. Skilled fades crouch-blink to take advantage of the hitbox bug, and with celerity in addition to the blink speed even the best marine is lucky to put more than 10 bullets into the fade. As such I can simply fly around the marine team, wait for them to shoot all of their ammo at me, and then move in for the kill with regen keeping me above 100 armor.
I personally am convinced that the reason the skill curve is weighted at the ends of the spectrum rather than at the center is because of blink and the insane kill:death ratio boost it gives once it is mastered. You simply can not hit the fade when he is blinking for all intents and purposes, and as such you are forced to rely on very sketchy "blocking" techniques.
This is what I propose: Increase the hitbox of the fade while they are blinking. As others have mentioned before me, it's not that the fade itself is at the incorrect armor/health balance, but instead that they can not be hit while blinking. Increasing the hit box size would do two things:
1) Reduce the offensive effectiveness of blink without harming its intended purpose in any way. Blink would still be utilized in hit and run tactics and it would be just as fast as before, but now you couldn't simply fly around in hallways to drain marine ammo without a care.
2) Bring the gap in skill between the untrained and the veteran fades closer together. Since blink+regen would no longer garuntee your survival in encounters, it would greatly reduce the massive ratios currently seen by the skilled players. Conversely, new players would still notice a massive gain in their abilities once they mastered it, but the change wouldn't be as abrupt.
Anyway, that's my idea: Increase the size of the fade hitbox while they're blinking. What do you guys think?
-[FFT]Brackhar
No, that would be the Fade who lacked skill. That sounds great in theory, but in practice a Fade will rarely put himself in a position to be within shotty range of 5 marines at once. In practice, a Fade can blink in and blink out so fast that if he has an intimate knowledge of how long he can survive in a given situation and how long it takes him to escape, he can survive almost indefinitely unless he is unlucky. You're right, Fades can't usually blink into a room with 5 skilled shotties and blink out with 5 dead marines behind him, but he can wear them down over time and the primary factor in beating him is luck. No alien species, Fade included, should survive a direct encounter with a team of marines with shotties or above, and even with upgraded LMGs the Fade should be too outgunned to attack them with so little risk.
Yesterday we won a game as Aliens where I went early fade; the game ended with me somewhere in the vicinity of 40:1, with the death being as a skulk. No, the marine team was not newbish, they were all skilled or decent players and they had a good comm. Our team was good as well, but I know that I as a Fade more or less single-handedly prevented them from accomplishing anything on the map, starting around 3-4 minutes into the game. Taking care of a SINGLE skilled Fade takes a massive amount of effort from marine team, and no matter how much money you put down on equipment a cautious Fade will still almost always survive. Whether or not it actually imbalances the game isn't the only concern. It just isn't fun for the game to pivot around one player so much, and it is very much not fun for the marine team to lose the game because they were constantly harassed by one skilled player that they just couldn't kill.
... or meets one or two good marines (this goes for combat, in classic you need just one or two average marines to crush a fade).
All those stories just tell one thing. Most marines don't know how to hurt fades. I see fades crouching at the cc while 3-4 marines with hmg and shotgun just hold fire but the fade doesn't die. I see fades trying to crouch at the cc and die in less than 3 seconds to a single marine.
One decent HA/Shotgun marine is dangerous. Two HA/Shotgun marines are fades' doom. Three or more marines are fade food because they block each other all the time.
When you blink into a room with five marines who have a free line of fire you are dead in less than a second.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->No alien species, Fade included, should survive a direct encounter with a team of marines with shotties or above, and even with upgraded LMGs the Fade should be too outgunned to attack them with so little risk.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This basically means aliens should just surrender when marines move as a team? In theory aliens could attack together at the same time but this will never ever happen. One or two aliens will always be the first who move into the line of fire so they should die and all aliens that follow should die too?
Well, I got your point but what about a single marine entering a room with five skulks? I see over and over again exactly that situation happen and the marine kills most of them or even all of them.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Taking care of a SINGLE skilled Fade takes a massive amount of effort from marine team, and no matter how much money you put down on equipment a cautious Fade will still almost always survive<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is a problem of bad marine teams/commanders. We saw the same thing happen in former times with "vent spore lerks". Half the marine team just watched the vent while the lerk spored them. Meanwhile the other aliens secured hives and res towers until they just crushed the marine base.
Just ignore the fade and stay with your HA train. A network of phase gates will easily enable the marines to drive away the fade from secured hives. Maybe fades are a problem when marines don't have equipment or upgrades to fight them back but what's the point of those games? It's already over.
No, that would be the Fade who lacked skill. That sounds great in theory, but in practice a Fade will rarely put himself in a position to be within shotty range of 5 marines at once. In practice, a Fade can blink in and blink out so fast that if he has an intimate knowledge of how long he can survive in a given situation and how long it takes him to escape, he can survive almost indefinitely unless he is unlucky. You're right, Fades can't usually blink into a room with 5 skilled shotties and blink out with 5 dead marines behind him, but he can wear them down over time and the primary factor in beating him is luck. No alien species, Fade included, should survive a direct encounter with a team of marines with shotties or above, and even with upgraded LMGs the Fade should be too outgunned to attack them with so little risk.
Yesterday we won a game as Aliens where I went early fade; the game ended with me somewhere in the vicinity of 40:1, with the death being as a skulk. No, the marine team was not newbish, they were all skilled or decent players and they had a good comm. Our team was good as well, but I know that I as a Fade more or less single-handedly prevented them from accomplishing anything on the map, starting around 3-4 minutes into the game. Taking care of a SINGLE skilled Fade takes a massive amount of effort from marine team, and no matter how much money you put down on equipment a cautious Fade will still almost always survive. Whether or not it actually imbalances the game isn't the only concern. It just isn't fun for the game to pivot around one player so much, and it is very much not fun for the marine team to lose the game because they were constantly harassed by one skilled player that they just couldn't kill. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Zek, you've said it perfectly.
In combat, of course, a jetpacker can just wrap himself in a cozy nuclear holocaust and have resupply keep him going. But that's why Combat is Stupid.
No, that would be the Fade who lacked skill. That sounds great in theory, but in practice a Fade will rarely put himself in a position to be within shotty range of 5 marines at once. In practice, a Fade can blink in and blink out so fast that if he has an intimate knowledge of how long he can survive in a given situation and how long it takes him to escape, he can survive almost indefinitely unless he is unlucky. You're right, Fades can't usually blink into a room with 5 skilled shotties and blink out with 5 dead marines behind him, but he can wear them down over time and the primary factor in beating him is luck. No alien species, Fade included, should survive a direct encounter with a team of marines with shotties or above, and even with upgraded LMGs the Fade should be too outgunned to attack them with so little risk.
Yesterday we won a game as Aliens where I went early fade; the game ended with me somewhere in the vicinity of 40:1, with the death being as a skulk. No, the marine team was not newbish, they were all skilled or decent players and they had a good comm. Our team was good as well, but I know that I as a Fade more or less single-handedly prevented them from accomplishing anything on the map, starting around 3-4 minutes into the game. Taking care of a SINGLE skilled Fade takes a massive amount of effort from marine team, and no matter how much money you put down on equipment a cautious Fade will still almost always survive. Whether or not it actually imbalances the game isn't the only concern. It just isn't fun for the game to pivot around one player so much, and it is very much not fun for the marine team to lose the game because they were constantly harassed by one skilled player that they just couldn't kill.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Did you encounter shotguns?
Rather than nerfing the fade (though maybe it needs some, I'm not sure), I'd much rather see some system of class limits in place - e.g. 1 hive = 1-2 fades only, with no cap for 2 and 3 hives. I've recently noticed the trend for about 3 people to fade at once early in the game (before second hive) and it's pretty much gg, nextmap already. A symptom of them being cheaper, probably. Killing one fade early on is a monumental task for marines, killing 3 is well nigh impossible, even if the fades aren't of the elite skill bracket. It makes for frustrating (and short) games when masses of second-top lifeforms appear at a time when marines probably aren't particularly well-equipped to handle even one.
Note: I'm only suggesting something like this be applied to fades (and onos, I guess, though I've never seen a 1 hive onos-herd before <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo--> ) and only in early games (1 hive situation). If the aliens had 2 hives and lost one, no reinstatement of the limit. Not saying that HA, JP or anything should be limited - if a comm has secured enough res to upgrade and then kit out his entire team (for a team of 5 that's gonna be something like 500 res, on top of the other essentials .. ips, rts, obs etc. etc. etc.), then well and good.. let him have his HA train.
I realise that limits would just annoy people who want to play fade but can't because someone else got there first, but n00bs die quick and a good fade is a good fade (an asset to the team, whoever they may be). It might promote some scrooges to spend their res on that hive or chambers instead of selfishly evolving and then expecting someone else to spend their res to support them.
Anyway. It's got flaws, (2 hive lockdowns, perhaps :/) but if it could promote prolonged conflict instead of an early rush of higher lifeforms... <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--emo&::fade::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/fade.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='fade.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Alien teams are always playing on fast fade...now the game deciding question for the marines is: are we able to take the fade down or are we not? If the fades die fast, the aliens are doomend and will just get crushed by the marines. Until the next aliens are able to fade, they'll probably have already lost the game versus some decent marines.
But if the rines are not able to kill the fade, they will simply lose the game by seeing all of their res towers going down one by one while the aliens expand all over the map making fades really cheap due to the large amount of res towers they got.
So the skill of the fades decides the game and thus making it less interesting. Making the fades costing a lot less and at the same time being weaker would make the game a lot more interesting: The marines would really have a good chance to kill those fades while the loss of a fade early in the game wouldn't result in the loss of the round for the aliens. The whole game won't be decided by the fade dies/dies not question.
No, that would be the Fade who lacked skill. That sounds great in theory, but in practice a Fade will rarely put himself in a position to be within shotty range of 5 marines at once. In practice, a Fade can blink in and blink out so fast that if he has an intimate knowledge of how long he can survive in a given situation and how long it takes him to escape, he can survive almost indefinitely unless he is unlucky. You're right, Fades can't usually blink into a room with 5 skilled shotties and blink out with 5 dead marines behind him, but he can wear them down over time and the primary factor in beating him is luck. No alien species, Fade included, should survive a direct encounter with a team of marines with shotties or above, and even with upgraded LMGs the Fade should be too outgunned to attack them with so little risk.
Yesterday we won a game as Aliens where I went early fade; the game ended with me somewhere in the vicinity of 40:1, with the death being as a skulk. No, the marine team was not newbish, they were all skilled or decent players and they had a good comm. Our team was good as well, but I know that I as a Fade more or less single-handedly prevented them from accomplishing anything on the map, starting around 3-4 minutes into the game. Taking care of a SINGLE skilled Fade takes a massive amount of effort from marine team, and no matter how much money you put down on equipment a cautious Fade will still almost always survive. Whether or not it actually imbalances the game isn't the only concern. It just isn't fun for the game to pivot around one player so much, and it is very much not fun for the marine team to lose the game because they were constantly harassed by one skilled player that they just couldn't kill. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sounds like that marine team had no coordination, skill, or you seriously outskilled them.
They couldn't aim, and they couldn't compete with a fade who knew what he was doing. What is so bad about that?
Also, saying a fade will not put himself in a position to be in range of 5 Shotties at once; if the marines are grouped up this is impossible.
The biggest difference between the fade of 2.01 and 3.00 is that the fade before, due to seriously screwed up hitboxes, had no substance to it. The only marines who could place direct shots on it was the marine who was being attacked and maybe one other marine close by.
Whereas, in 3.00, a fade can be easily hit by LMG's, Shotties from a distance, and HMG's totally wreck fades as the spread of an HMG is covered by the size of the fade.
So yes, I think it is the fault of the marine team. Remember, the marine team is the one that is more dependant on skill. Never forget that if the marine team had a bunch of aimbots, they would never lose. Better players constantly apporach a better and better accuracy, meaning they improve more and more. Whereas the aliens, can only do so much; move this way and that way, bhop, blink in this direction and then in that direction, etc. etc., but a good bunch of marines who can track you will have you toasted in no time.