Change blink to a hive 2 predator style ability. While pressing the button the energy slowly decreases and the fade is cloaked but can move at full speed (maybe block a few bullets like in umbra while in predator mode) <!--emo&:0--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wow.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wow.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Maybe this would remove all the complaining about the current blink (but I can already see the whiners return <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo--> ).
Blink is overpowered only if you're a total newbie who cannot hit a wall while being inside a barn. I still remember 2.01 blink, now THAT was an ability. Good fades would be nearly immortal back then, and still even good fades went down. Now blink is nerfed so much, you have to stay in the ceiling above the marines to gain any advantage to your dodging ability. So it's only enter/exit battle ability for most fades anyway. Marines own as they are now. Nerfing the fade will leave aliens with absolutely no effective early-mid game unit. I foresee the a lot of pub 9/1 node games if this is ever applied.
In a nutshell - blink is either slow (adrenaline) or predictable (celerity) now. Learn to hit your target, not just spray and pray.
fades are good in ns classic right now IMO because if comm drops a shottie or 2 and ppl that can use them get them the fade is gonna drop real quick... However in combat i feel focus swipe combined with blink is too strong.. with those one fade can kill anything with no risk of getting killed (HAs take a few hits but are really no problem either)
matsoMaster of PatchesJoin Date: 2002-11-05Member: 7000Members, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, Squad Five Gold, Reinforced - Shadow, NS2 Community Developer
One suggestion I have thought of (and it seems others have as well) is to switch the placement of blink and metabolize. Alone this makes the fade much weaker until the second hive is finnished. However, in the big picture this will also reduce the need for defense chambers as the first chamber. The fade is the sole reason defense chambers are picked as the first chamber and if fades are able to heal by themselves than I believe sensory chambers and movement chambers may become viable as first hive chambers. Yet, if this changes is combined with a reduction in the cost hive construction (be it in the price of the hive, or the gorge) or build time of the hive I think that it would reduce the weakness of the fade and encourage aliens to get another hive, instead of simply another fade.
I should also note that if the switch of blink and metabolize was made, it would also increase the amount of time before a fade showed up in combat. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> That actually makes a LOT of sense. In 1.04 the blink of the fade was tied to the second hive. So if you lost it, you weren't totally screwed (because AR was 2nd slot weapon) but your mobility was greatly crippled. Now if Blink and Metabolize was switched, it would basically mean a whole new game of tactics (different chambers instead of the normal D-M-S).<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Switching blink and meta? Tell me what you (and whatever others you are referring to) are smoking so I can avoid that weed...
It's not very hard to try it though... . Play a Fade today, and unmap weapon 2 so you can't use blink. Then try to see how powerful you would be. Apart from attacking electrified RTs, you will find yourself better off with a skulk.
You might argue that Meta would make a non-blinking fade better, but that just proves just how _bad_ that weed is... Meta as a hive 1 ability would be useless. It heals 20 pts every 1.5 seconds, ie about 13 hits/sec. Pretty short of the 150 dam/sec an lvl 0 LMG does per second, so you can't really expect it to be of any help _in_ battle. Between battles it would do ok, though blinking back to hive is probably still faster ... of course, without blink you would find that there ISN'T any between battle, as you wouldn't be able to break off battles due to you moving about as fast as the marines, ergo you would die to the first group of LMG marines you encountered.
The energy regain from meta would also be useless, as a non-blinking fade would find it really hard to lose energy in the first place.
matso42: The point of switching meta and blink is not to make the fade better, it is to make it <i>worse.</i> Why on earth would you want to make something that a bunch of people think is overpowering better? I'm not trying to insult you personally when I say this, but your view point is rather narrow. You see only this change as how it would prevent the fade from being the same as it is now. The whole point of this change is to change the way the fade is played. For example, you make the comment about just unbinding blink as being the same as the change, this is far from true. With meta as the first hive fades no longer require regeneration, which means that an upgrade from another kind of chamber such as cel or cloak would suit them better. Have you ever tried a cloaked for cel fade in classic? Probably not, but I haven't either since regeneration is just so good with them. Another point you make is a fade trying to be the same hit and run unit but using meta while running up to marines. You comment on how this isn't effective enough to work. Once again, that is the point of the fade. With out his ability to make such lighting hit and run attacks <i>at the first hive</i> he will be better suited to cloak walk up to his targets, or use cel to get to them faster. The biggest weakness in this idea I have seen is how to make up for the loss of alien strength. As I have said, I do believe the game is more or less balanced right now, so and weakness caused by doing this to the fade has to be made up some how. One way that this can be made up is the use of other chambers. Cloaking, silence, focus, cel are all more useful upgrades (most of the time) for skulks than regeneration or cara would be. Even still, I don't think this alone is a big enough boost to counter act the loss in power.
I really dont see the point of this last idea. What are the aliens gonna use to defend themselves in mid-game when you aint got 2 hives yet, with a fade lacking blink...? Provided the comm knows what he is doing, he will have weapon2/3, and will drop shootguns when the fade arrives. A good marine can outhop a fade anything short of uber anyways, but without blink would just be.... No.
Without celerity, a fade would not be able to get close to shotgunners (and possibly lvl3 lmg) lacking blink, let alone run away.The other upgrades? Adrenaline? No point. Silence? Might actually be not too bad, but then again, can be completely negated by MT. Cloaking? I suggest you dont go standing somewhere looking pretty with shotgunners around, let alone attack them. SoF? Maybe so you can see the marines coming and evade them at most. Focus would actually be good but meh, cant kill 3+ shotgunners with it...
The point is, is that it would make less people want to fade before the second hive goes up. Reasons?
Well you may think that the fade is helping out a lot (and he really is if he is good) but a 2nd hive will benefit the team more. And fades in the beginning really only benefit from the normal D-M-S chamber strat. Now if you got movement first, that would help out everyone more because of celerity or adrenaline for sporing lerks. You could even go sensory and places those suckers around the map and easily ambush the marines. Focus would be of great help as well, killing marines easier is always a good thing.
Now you may say, "but lvl 1 armor negates a lvl 3 skulk focus bite". It may not kill them in one bite, but this is when you apply teamwork into the game, don't hog the kills, kill as a team. You can usually get off a second bite before they realize it anyway if you're smart about it (come from behind or walk to them when they aren't looking).
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->You could even go sensory and places those suckers around the map and easily ambush the marines. Focus would be of great help as well, killing marines easier is always a good thing.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So we delay our 2nd hive to get 4 more sensory chambers? You can only afford so many of the things and once marines know they're around, they die incredibly fast.
Guys, drop the Meta/Blink switch idea, it's terrible quite frankly. Go into a decent Classic game, just once, and play as a hive 1 Fade without ever using blink(Meta would only help between fights so just pretend you don't have much downtime). You'll be torn up so fast, against LMGs, it wouldn't even be funny. Nerfing Fades is not possible right now because Aliens are too reliant on them; as long as the Alien team is completely dependent on a single Fade to be the primary fighting force of the team, you can't nerf them without gimping the team. In order to nerf Fades, you either have to buff skulks or give gorges faster res so aliens can have more combat species.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->In order to nerf Fades, you either have to buff skulks or give gorges faster res so aliens can have more combat species. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I would prefer "gorges faster res". I remember in previous versions there was something called WoL. Even a small WoL could stop marine movement for some time. Now marines have GL/Grenades but there are no WoLs because aliens just can't afford to build them.
Bring back the WoL <!--emo&:0--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wow.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wow.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Well you may think that the fade is helping out a lot (and he really is if he is good) but a 2nd hive will benefit the team more. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
^^^^ which only clarifies my point. You need those blinking fades to defend your growing second hive, unless either the comm, the marines, or both are lacking skill.
matsoMaster of PatchesJoin Date: 2002-11-05Member: 7000Members, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, Squad Five Gold, Reinforced - Shadow, NS2 Community Developer
<!--QuoteBegin-Machiavelli+Apr 11 2004, 04:07 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Machiavelli @ Apr 11 2004, 04:07 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->matso42: The point of switching meta and blink is not to make the fade better, it is to make it <i>worse.</i> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I'm quite ok with making the Fade worse - slightly, and only if the aliens early game is strengthened somehow. However, switching blink and meta would make the Fade useless, not simply worse.
Using other chambers is unfortunately no solution. Without blink, a Fade is just an Onos with 1/3 the life and a worse attack. You would be far better off with a skulk in almost all situations, as you wouldn't be risking a 50 res investment. About the only thing the Fade could do better than a skulk would be to hunt down undefended electrified RT's.
Only thing I never understood was the further increase in health and armor of the fade (it was something like ~100 less armor ??). Slight decrease in fade health and armor (maybe 25/50) and permanent upgrades (with the option to change upgrades, maybe 10 seconds evolve time) would help. Fades become weaker and skulks become stronger. Aliens don't depend solely on fades. Problem solved <!--emo&:0--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wow.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wow.gif' /><!--endemo-->
I know this will not happen. Next version will have sooo many changes (as usual) we will have new issues to discuss soon <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Without blink, a Fade is just an Onos with 1/3 the life and a worse attack. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
lol
that's the best way i've heard it put yet.
alright, i just finished reading this whole thread, and i went from a "yes nerf the fade" to "no the fade is fine" and "yes nerf the fade" attitude again. What that means is you guys have some good, compelling arguments.
About switching blink/meta, I like the idea that it would encourage aliens to put up the 2nd hive faster, and also maybe try different chambers at start. You can't ignore the previously pointed out fact that the fade is the real fighter for the alien team, and that removing blink would let marines completely dominate until that second hive was done. Maybe this can be just more incentive to get that hive up faster, resulting in... the hive going up faster.
Think of it this way, that 2nd hive can finish as early as you would normally get your first fade, ok maybe a minute afterward cause it takes so long to grow; The point is, where marines normaly see the first fade, they see a second hive. at this point it is up to the aliens SKILL to make the best of their new hive until the other res**** on the team can go fade (they probably aren't more than 5 or 10 res behind). - marines would NOT dominate if blink/meta were switched unless they are already dominating and clearly outskill the aliens. Seeing many shotguns or several HA at this point (the second hive is finished, a fade has just joined) indicates that the aliens were not playing well to begin with, and failed to keep marines off of nodes.
But this isn't the idea i want to see implemented... <b>I just want blink to cost twice as much energy as it does now.</b>
The only effect this has is that during a battle, the fade will be less likely to have enough energy to fly straight up 50 feet, and then fly another 100 feet out a doorway. When a fade is at zero or nearly zero energy, having x2 blink costs will only allow it to make long hops, not enough to clear some obstacles but still travel very fast in a straight line.
What's the point? Fades still have blink, but they can't just take it for granted that they will always be able to blink away, which is exactly how it is now.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->yes nerf the fade" to "no the fade is fine" and "yes nerf the fade"<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Don't forget:
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->no the fade is fine and i think this topic is BS<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
ChurchMeatshield grunt-fodder // Has pre-ordered NS2Join Date: 2002-12-31Member: 11646Members, Constellation
I agree with Tomekki. Yes, do give skulks a boost if you want to make blink a hive2 ability. Maybe beef up the lerk as well to help the now weakened Fade.
Now it's rediculous because there are a couple of those super fades in every server. Before you'd see one every now and but that's not the case anymore.
<!--QuoteBegin-Dead_Dan+Apr 18 2004, 06:46 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Dead_Dan @ Apr 18 2004, 06:46 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Now it's rediculous because there are a couple of those super fades in every server. Before you'd see one every now and but that's not the case anymore. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> So..?
<!--QuoteBegin-coris+Apr 18 2004, 01:09 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (coris @ Apr 18 2004, 01:09 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Dead_Dan+Apr 18 2004, 06:46 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Dead_Dan @ Apr 18 2004, 06:46 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Now it's rediculous because there are a couple of those super fades in every server. Before you'd see one every now and but that's not the case anymore. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> So..?
I solo'ed 2 fades today. The fade is fine. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> those fades much have sucked
<!--QuoteBegin-Salvation.r2+Apr 18 2004, 08:15 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Salvation.r2 @ Apr 18 2004, 08:15 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-coris+Apr 18 2004, 01:09 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (coris @ Apr 18 2004, 01:09 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Dead_Dan+Apr 18 2004, 06:46 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Dead_Dan @ Apr 18 2004, 06:46 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Now it's rediculous because there are a couple of those super fades in every server. Before you'd see one every now and but that's not the case anymore. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> So..?
I solo'ed 2 fades today. The fade is fine. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> those fades much have sucked <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Yes, but fades are still very very possible to kill, they just aren't as easy to kill as skulks. Just practice in combat and you'll do fine.
The real problem isn't that fades are overpowered, but rather that clanners or very good players can basiclly own noobs, and thereby decide the outcome of the game. But this is good, since a game that won't require skill isn't going to be fun to play.
<!--QuoteBegin-coris+Apr 18 2004, 02:34 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (coris @ Apr 18 2004, 02:34 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> The real problem isn't that fades are overpowered, but rather that clanners or very good players can basiclly own noobs, and thereby decide the outcome of the game. But this is good, since a game that won't require skill isn't going to be fun to play. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> While I generally agree, there is too much of skill vs. effectiveness with Fades right now. The people who know how the Fade are pretty much unkillable, and even if they do get killed, have made more than 50 res back to re-fade. Wheras someone who is new to NS or just the Fade in general will get killed quickly, and get discouraged.
Think of it this way. For the skilled in the game, yes a lack of skill requirement would make the game less fun. However for the vast majority of people who have yet to either play NS, or just play casually, that uber skill isn't present. And if they get destroyed over and over again, its not going to be very much fun for them is it? I know if I was trying a new game, and seemingly couldn't get anywhere, I wouldn't play that game for very long.
Somehow a balance must be struck between Newb friendly ablities, and rewarding those with 'skill' that know how to use those ablities to their fullest extent.
We need some specifics here. Let me express my view:
Classic NS Fade: For 50 res, the fade deserves blink. He needs it to keep from dying with near instantaneosity (I made a new word!). Without it, the fade is a slow moving skulk with a life span increased by about 1.2 seconds.
Combat Fade: OMG OMG!!1 Fades are EVERYWHERE! My shotgun does NOTHING!!11
<!--QuoteBegin-coris+Apr 18 2004, 01:09 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (coris @ Apr 18 2004, 01:09 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Dead_Dan+Apr 18 2004, 06:46 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Dead_Dan @ Apr 18 2004, 06:46 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Now it's rediculous because there are a couple of those super fades in every server. Before you'd see one every now and but that's not the case anymore. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> So..?
I solo'ed 2 fades today. The fade is fine. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Good job. Have a cookie, you killed two inexperienced fades. Any fade worth his salt wouldn't even be close to soloable. As time goes by, the fades in general are getting better and better and we're already to the point where a very skilled fade isn't uncommon at all. Infact, we're to the point where you're seeing multiple unstoppable fades in a single game.
fades only slaughter the marines easily because the marines can't aim. one good fade will kill an entire team of mediocre players. i know it shouldn't be this way but.. well, it is.
<!--QuoteBegin-Daxx22+Apr 19 2004, 07:17 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Daxx22 @ Apr 19 2004, 07:17 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> The people who know how the Fade are pretty much unkillable, and even if they do get killed, have made more than 50 res back to re-fade. Wheras someone who is new to NS or just the Fade in general will get killed quickly, and get discouraged.
...for the vast majority of people who have yet to either play NS, or just play casually, that uber skill isn't present. And if they get destroyed over and over again, its not going to be very much fun for them is it?...
Somehow a balance must be struck between Newb friendly ablities, and rewarding those with 'skill' that know how to use those ablities to their fullest extent. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> this pretty much mirrors my thoughts too. i can't fade. i suck at it. i don't even bother anymore, because i dont have the keyboard mashing skills this class seems to require. maybe i just didn't play enough Street Fighter when i was younger. the point is, the Fade has become an "Elite" class, only really accessible to those who are willing to spend all their time practicing as a fade, and as a fade only. this is wrong, it makes a whole section of the game inaccessable to not only newbs, but also to casual players or people who like to keep a general skill level over all classes.
if you ask me, the easy way to kill this elitism is to do two things (and i'm not saying this is the only way, its just from my experience)
-make energy use for Blink exponential, if you blink a lot in a short space of time your energy usage goes nuts, but if you use it in short bursts with reasonable (750ms to 1s) pauses in between you can go for quite a while. there is nothing worse as a marine to watch a fade fly around a room, doing leaps of 80-100 ft at a time, dropping out of the air to butcher a teammate with one focus swipe, only to jet off 40ft into the air again to regen, then to do it all over again. its ridiculous.
-make regen and metabolize mutually exclusive. the amount of health a fade can regain when they have both lvl3 regen and metabolise going is insane. if you are metabolizing, make regen stop, this is to give the rines more time between fade hit-and-runs, and more of a chance to chase down a fleeing fade that has been *almost* killed in battle.
i also like the idea of switching metabilize and blink. forcing a second hive earlier and discouraging fades early game can only be a good thing. it will help open up the option for other chambers than def first (because you are more likely to get a 2nd chamber quicker) and make lerks a more viable class. they only really get seen these days late game in classic, because of Primal Scream. because there are less likely to be early game fades, more starting res can go into building res towers. the only drawback is that the rines may get a little more powerful in early game than they really should be, because of the alien teams increased reliance on skulks... but then i think the skulk should get 10 or 20 more armor and 10 more health anyway.
good to see an intelligent discussion that hasn't reduced itself to flaming <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Comments
Maybe this would remove all the complaining about the current blink (but I can already see the whiners return <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo--> ).
Marines own as they are now. Nerfing the fade will leave aliens with absolutely no effective early-mid game unit. I foresee the a lot of pub 9/1 node games if this is ever applied.
In a nutshell - blink is either slow (adrenaline) or predictable (celerity) now. Learn to hit your target, not just spray and pray.
However in combat i feel focus swipe combined with blink is too strong.. with those one fade can kill anything with no risk of getting killed (HAs take a few hits but are really no problem either)
One suggestion I have thought of (and it seems others have as well) is to switch the placement of blink and metabolize. Alone this makes the fade much weaker until the second hive is finnished. However, in the big picture this will also reduce the need for defense chambers as the first chamber. The fade is the sole reason defense chambers are picked as the first chamber and if fades are able to heal by themselves than I believe sensory chambers and movement chambers may become viable as first hive chambers. Yet, if this changes is combined with a reduction in the cost hive construction (be it in the price of the hive, or the gorge) or build time of the hive I think that it would reduce the weakness of the fade and encourage aliens to get another hive, instead of simply another fade.
I should also note that if the switch of blink and metabolize was made, it would also increase the amount of time before a fade showed up in combat. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That actually makes a LOT of sense. In 1.04 the blink of the fade was tied to the second hive. So if you lost it, you weren't totally screwed (because AR was 2nd slot weapon) but your mobility was greatly crippled. Now if Blink and Metabolize was switched, it would basically mean a whole new game of tactics (different chambers instead of the normal D-M-S).<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Switching blink and meta? Tell me what you (and whatever others you are referring to) are smoking so I can avoid that weed...
It's not very hard to try it though... . Play a Fade today, and unmap weapon 2 so you can't use blink. Then try to see how powerful you would be. Apart from attacking electrified RTs, you will find yourself better off with a skulk.
You might argue that Meta would make a non-blinking fade better, but that just proves just how _bad_ that weed is... Meta as a hive 1 ability would be useless. It heals 20 pts every 1.5 seconds, ie about 13 hits/sec. Pretty short of the 150 dam/sec an lvl 0 LMG does per second, so you can't really expect it to be of any help _in_ battle. Between battles it would do ok, though blinking back to hive is probably still faster ... of course, without blink you would find that there ISN'T any between battle, as you wouldn't be able to break off battles due to you moving about as fast as the marines, ergo you would die to the first group of LMG marines you encountered.
The energy regain from meta would also be useless, as a non-blinking fade would find it really hard to lose energy in the first place.
The point of switching meta and blink is not to make the fade better, it is to make it <i>worse.</i> Why on earth would you want to make something that a bunch of people think is overpowering better? I'm not trying to insult you personally when I say this, but your view point is rather narrow. You see only this change as how it would prevent the fade from being the same as it is now. The whole point of this change is to change the way the fade is played. For example, you make the comment about just unbinding blink as being the same as the change, this is far from true. With meta as the first hive fades no longer require regeneration, which means that an upgrade from another kind of chamber such as cel or cloak would suit them better. Have you ever tried a cloaked for cel fade in classic? Probably not, but I haven't either since regeneration is just so good with them. Another point you make is a fade trying to be the same hit and run unit but using meta while running up to marines. You comment on how this isn't effective enough to work. Once again, that is the point of the fade. With out his ability to make such lighting hit and run attacks <i>at the first hive</i> he will be better suited to cloak walk up to his targets, or use cel to get to them faster. The biggest weakness in this idea I have seen is how to make up for the loss of alien strength. As I have said, I do believe the game is more or less balanced right now, so and weakness caused by doing this to the fade has to be made up some how. One way that this can be made up is the use of other chambers. Cloaking, silence, focus, cel are all more useful upgrades (most of the time) for skulks than regeneration or cara would be. Even still, I don't think this alone is a big enough boost to counter act the loss in power.
Provided the comm knows what he is doing, he will have weapon2/3, and will drop shootguns when the fade arrives. A good marine can outhop a fade anything short of uber anyways, but without blink would just be.... No.
Without celerity, a fade would not be able to get close to shotgunners (and possibly lvl3 lmg) lacking blink, let alone run away.The other upgrades? Adrenaline? No point. Silence? Might actually be not too bad, but then again, can be completely negated by MT. Cloaking? I suggest you dont go standing somewhere looking pretty with shotgunners around, let alone attack them. SoF? Maybe so you can see the marines coming and evade them at most. Focus would actually be good but meh, cant kill 3+ shotgunners with it...
This idea is clearly flawed beyond recognition.
Well you may think that the fade is helping out a lot (and he really is if he is good) but a 2nd hive will benefit the team more. And fades in the beginning really only benefit from the normal D-M-S chamber strat. Now if you got movement first, that would help out everyone more because of celerity or adrenaline for sporing lerks. You could even go sensory and places those suckers around the map and easily ambush the marines. Focus would be of great help as well, killing marines easier is always a good thing.
Now you may say, "but lvl 1 armor negates a lvl 3 skulk focus bite". It may not kill them in one bite, but this is when you apply teamwork into the game, don't hog the kills, kill as a team. You can usually get off a second bite before they realize it anyway if you're smart about it (come from behind or walk to them when they aren't looking).
So we delay our 2nd hive to get 4 more sensory chambers? You can only afford so many of the things and once marines know they're around, they die incredibly fast.
I would prefer "gorges faster res". I remember in previous versions there was something called WoL. Even a small WoL could stop marine movement for some time. Now marines have GL/Grenades but there are no WoLs because aliens just can't afford to build them.
Bring back the WoL <!--emo&:0--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wow.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wow.gif' /><!--endemo-->
^^^^ which only clarifies my point. You need those blinking fades to defend your growing second hive, unless either the comm, the marines, or both are lacking skill.
The point of switching meta and blink is not to make the fade better, it is to make it <i>worse.</i>
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I'm quite ok with making the Fade worse - slightly, and only if the aliens early game is strengthened somehow. However, switching blink and meta would make the Fade useless, not simply worse.
Using other chambers is unfortunately no solution. Without blink, a Fade is just an Onos with 1/3 the life and a worse attack. You would be far better off with a skulk in almost all situations, as you wouldn't be risking a 50 res investment. About the only thing the Fade could do better than a skulk would be to hunt down undefended electrified RT's.
I know this will not happen. Next version will have sooo many changes (as usual) we will have new issues to discuss soon <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Without blink, a Fade is just an Onos with 1/3 the life and a worse attack.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
lol
that's the best way i've heard it put yet.
alright, i just finished reading this whole thread, and i went from a "yes nerf the fade" to "no the fade is fine" and "yes nerf the fade" attitude again. What that means is you guys have some good, compelling arguments.
About switching blink/meta, I like the idea that it would encourage aliens to put up the 2nd hive faster, and also maybe try different chambers at start. You can't ignore the previously pointed out fact that the fade is the real fighter for the alien team, and that removing blink would let marines completely dominate until that second hive was done. Maybe this can be just more incentive to get that hive up faster, resulting in... the hive going up faster.
Think of it this way, that 2nd hive can finish as early as you would normally get your first fade, ok maybe a minute afterward cause it takes so long to grow; The point is, where marines normaly see the first fade, they see a second hive. at this point it is up to the aliens SKILL to make the best of their new hive until the other res**** on the team can go fade (they probably aren't more than 5 or 10 res behind).
- marines would NOT dominate if blink/meta were switched unless they are already dominating and clearly outskill the aliens. Seeing many shotguns or several HA at this point (the second hive is finished, a fade has just joined) indicates that the aliens were not playing well to begin with, and failed to keep marines off of nodes.
But this isn't the idea i want to see implemented...
<b>I just want blink to cost twice as much energy as it does now.</b>
The only effect this has is that during a battle, the fade will be less likely to have enough energy to fly straight up 50 feet, and then fly another 100 feet out a doorway. When a fade is at zero or nearly zero energy, having x2 blink costs will only allow it to make long hops, not enough to clear some obstacles but still travel very fast in a straight line.
What's the point? Fades still have blink, but they can't just take it for granted that they will always be able to blink away, which is exactly how it is now.
Don't forget:
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->no the fade is fine and i think this topic is BS<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
increase all marine upgrade and other costs by 50%.
reduce base damage of lmg to 8, or boost up skulk armor.
armory takes a minute longer to upgrade.
So..?
I solo'ed 2 fades today. The fade is fine.
It's not fades that are overpowered. It stupidly EARLY fades ¬_¬
So..?
I solo'ed 2 fades today. The fade is fine. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
those fades much have sucked
So..?
I solo'ed 2 fades today. The fade is fine. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
those fades much have sucked <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes, but fades are still very very possible to kill, they just aren't as easy to kill as skulks. Just practice in combat and you'll do fine.
The real problem isn't that fades are overpowered, but rather that clanners or very good players can basiclly own noobs, and thereby decide the outcome of the game. But this is good, since a game that won't require skill isn't going to be fun to play.
The fade is everything the Khaara is suppose to be: Fast, strong, imtiminating, while being alone.
The problem is how early this thing comes in, obviously an onos at 7-9 minutes = a very bad GG, but a fade at 3-4 minutes......eww.
The fade is balanced but the time the fade comes in is not, if we boosted cost of fade it would nearly be useless but would encourage getting an hive.
We don't want to make the fade useless, we want to encourage an hive to go up.
That is a very challenging thing to balance.
Perhaps 5 shotties could defeat him, the thing is the shotties say is that he runs out of effective range.
The khaara say: "Use your pistols!"
So, the fade seems to be balanced enough just not the time.
Let us focus on -time- for balance wise, not res, not health.
While I generally agree, there is too much of skill vs. effectiveness with Fades right now. The people who know how the Fade are pretty much unkillable, and even if they do get killed, have made more than 50 res back to re-fade. Wheras someone who is new to NS or just the Fade in general will get killed quickly, and get discouraged.
Think of it this way. For the skilled in the game, yes a lack of skill requirement would make the game less fun. However for the vast majority of people who have yet to either play NS, or just play casually, that uber skill isn't present. And if they get destroyed over and over again, its not going to be very much fun for them is it? I know if I was trying a new game, and seemingly couldn't get anywhere, I wouldn't play that game for very long.
Somehow a balance must be struck between Newb friendly ablities, and rewarding those with 'skill' that know how to use those ablities to their fullest extent.
Classic NS Fade: For 50 res, the fade deserves blink. He needs it to keep from dying with near instantaneosity (I made a new word!). Without it, the fade is a slow moving skulk with a life span increased by about 1.2 seconds.
Combat Fade: OMG OMG!!1 Fades are EVERYWHERE! My shotgun does NOTHING!!11
<!--emo&::skulk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='skulk.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::skulk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='skulk.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::skulk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='skulk.gif' /><!--endemo-->
So..?
I solo'ed 2 fades today. The fade is fine. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Good job. Have a cookie, you killed two inexperienced fades. Any fade worth his salt wouldn't even be close to soloable. As time goes by, the fades in general are getting better and better and we're already to the point where a very skilled fade isn't uncommon at all. Infact, we're to the point where you're seeing multiple unstoppable fades in a single game.
...for the vast majority of people who have yet to either play NS, or just play casually, that uber skill isn't present. And if they get destroyed over and over again, its not going to be very much fun for them is it?...
Somehow a balance must be struck between Newb friendly ablities, and rewarding those with 'skill' that know how to use those ablities to their fullest extent. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
this pretty much mirrors my thoughts too. i can't fade. i suck at it. i don't even bother anymore, because i dont have the keyboard mashing skills this class seems to require. maybe i just didn't play enough Street Fighter when i was younger. the point is, the Fade has become an "Elite" class, only really accessible to those who are willing to spend all their time practicing as a fade, and as a fade only. this is wrong, it makes a whole section of the game inaccessable to not only newbs, but also to casual players or people who like to keep a general skill level over all classes.
if you ask me, the easy way to kill this elitism is to do two things (and i'm not saying this is the only way, its just from my experience)
-make energy use for Blink exponential, if you blink a lot in a short space of time your energy usage goes nuts, but if you use it in short bursts with reasonable (750ms to 1s) pauses in between you can go for quite a while. there is nothing worse as a marine to watch a fade fly around a room, doing leaps of 80-100 ft at a time, dropping out of the air to butcher a teammate with one focus swipe, only to jet off 40ft into the air again to regen, then to do it all over again. its ridiculous.
-make regen and metabolize mutually exclusive. the amount of health a fade can regain when they have both lvl3 regen and metabolise going is insane. if you are metabolizing, make regen stop, this is to give the rines more time between fade hit-and-runs, and more of a chance to chase down a fleeing fade that has been *almost* killed in battle.
i also like the idea of switching metabilize and blink. forcing a second hive earlier and discouraging fades early game can only be a good thing. it will help open up the option for other chambers than def first (because you are more likely to get a 2nd chamber quicker) and make lerks a more viable class. they only really get seen these days late game in classic, because of Primal Scream. because there are less likely to be early game fades, more starting res can go into building res towers. the only drawback is that the rines may get a little more powerful in early game than they really should be, because of the alien teams increased reliance on skulks... but then i think the skulk should get 10 or 20 more armor and 10 more health anyway.
good to see an intelligent discussion that hasn't reduced itself to flaming <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo-->