The Knife
coris
Join Date: 2003-07-08 Member: 18034Members, Constellation
Join Date: 2003-07-08 Member: 18034Members, Constellation
<div class="IPBDescription">I know it's been discussed before..</div> Well, the knife needs to be nerfed. A lot.
I *know* this has been discussed before, but today I played vs some clanners on a random-pub. They would just shot with the pistol, pull out the knife and knife you.
I tried it myself and it's so easy it's redicilous.
The knife needs to be NERFED a LOT.
A marine isn't supposed to knife 2-3 skulks in a row when he's out of ammo. It's just the way it is. (yes i've done it myself). It's just...wrong.
I *know* this has been discussed before, but today I played vs some clanners on a random-pub. They would just shot with the pistol, pull out the knife and knife you.
I tried it myself and it's so easy it's redicilous.
The knife needs to be NERFED a LOT.
A marine isn't supposed to knife 2-3 skulks in a row when he's out of ammo. It's just the way it is. (yes i've done it myself). It's just...wrong.
Comments
The S&I forum has a statement in the FAQ that marines are NOT supposed to have strog melee weapons, so I'm hoping Flayra will revisit this before the next build drops.
Regards,
Savant
Umm, gee so if a marine pulls out a knife we should run away? You realize we have to get in close to bite them right?
Oh yeah that still doesn't refute my point about reducing the knife damage, REALLY good try though hopefully you get a consellation prize
I *know* this has been discussed before, but today I played vs some clanners on a random-pub. They would just shot with the pistol, pull out the knife and knife you.
I tried it myself and it's so easy it's redicilous.
The knife needs to be NERFED a LOT.
A marine isn't supposed to knife 2-3 skulks in a row when he's out of ammo. It's just the way it is. (yes i've done it myself). It's just...wrong. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
shut up
You're a new playtester, so I guess you missed the posts by Flayra that said he does NOT want marines to have strong melee weapons. That is why every suggestion for additional melee weapons for marines have been shot down, and also why welders no longer damage aliens. Marines are not meant to deal significant melee damage to aliens. It's right in the S&I faq.
The knife damage was increased to allow marines to take out chambers, and I agree wiht that. I'd like to see knife damage go the way of welder damage. No effect on aliens.
To use your euphemism, perhaps if a marine uses up a full clip of LMG ammo, <b>and</b> uses up a full clip of pistol ammo, then perhaps the knife is not their strongest asset. If they can't kill a skulk with 60 bullets that would have allowed them to kill the skulk 5 times over, then they need to learn to aim. They don't need a knife.
Regards,
Savant
Marine knife vs. Bite
- Little range
- Takes 3 swipes to kill a skulk
- ROF of the knife is only slightly faster than bite
- Marine is slower than skulk, by a lot
- In 3.0 skulks have much smaller hitboxes to knife, making it much more difficult
- If skulk has carapace the knifer will never ever win if the knifer only uses his knife
Taking this into consideration:
- If marine starts to knife and skulk starts to bite, skulk wins easily, unless marine has armor one, in which case skulk loses
- Skulk is faster, marine pulls out knife and just starts swinging. Skulk pulls back. He then times when he goes in bites and pulls away. A good skulk will beat a knifer every time if he does this. Skulk wins, again. If skulk gets hit twice with a knife (three times to kill a skulk), skulk can run away and heal somewhere.
- Marines who like to shoot you up a bit and then knife are just taking into account your noobiness and are essentially pimping out their knife score by taking advantage of your lack of tatics. They then take screenshots and add it to their knife kill collection.
The fact is, the knife is inferrior to bite in every way imaginable and if you get killed by it, it is 100% at your fault.
Reasons why it doesn't matter if people think the knife is fine:
-Marines are not supposed to have strong melee weapons
-Marines already have a PRIMARY weapon and a SECONDARY weapon
-Marines can get medpacks from the commander or the armory
-Marines can use grenades
-If marines need a knife to get kills then they need to learn better aim, not rely on a knife to save their butt after they have enptied the LMG and pistol of ammo
The number one reason why it doesn't matter if people think the knife is fine:
Flayra has said that he wants the teams to be asymetrical, and that is why marines will NEVER get strong melee weapons. Period. This is stated in the Suggestions and Ideas FAQ, and no matter how 'fine' people think it is, it's not 'right' when Flayra's vision for the game is taken into account.
If you want to debate it, debate it with Flayra, he's the one who made that decision. The fact knife does 30 damage vs aliens is an oversight, and I'm sure it will be corrected in a future build.
Regards,
Savant
You're a new playtester, so I guess you missed the posts by Flayra that said he does NOT want marines to have strong melee weapons. That is why every suggestion for additional melee weapons for marines have been shot down, and also why welders no longer damage aliens. Marines are not meant to deal significant melee damage to aliens. It's right in the S&I faq.
The knife damage was increased to allow marines to take out chambers, and I agree wiht that. I'd like to see knife damage go the way of welder damage. No effect on aliens.
To use your euphemism, perhaps if a marine uses up a full clip of LMG ammo, <b>and</b> uses up a full clip of pistol ammo, then perhaps the knife is not their strongest asset. If they can't kill a skulk with 60 bullets that would have allowed them to kill the skulk 5 times over, then they need to learn to aim. They don't need a knife.
Regards,
Savant <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
The point was that vets get fancy, and unload a certain ammount of bullets into the skulk, and then Knife them, no matter how much you reduce the knife damage, this will still happen. How do you plan on fixxing that?
I'm sure they would manage.
Regards,
Savant
Reasons why it doesn't matter if people think the knife is fine:
-Marines are not supposed to have strong melee weapons
-Marines already have a PRIMARY weapon and a SECONDARY weapon
-Marines can get medpacks from the commander or the armory
-Marines can use grenades
-If marines need a knife to get kills then they need to learn better aim, not rely on a knife to save their butt after they have enptied the LMG and pistol of ammo
The number one reason why it doesn't matter if people think the knife is fine:
Flayra has said that he wants the teams to be asymetrical, and that is why marines will NEVER get strong melee weapons. Period. This is stated in the Suggestions and Ideas FAQ, and no matter how 'fine' people think it is, it's not 'right' when Flayra's vision for the game is taken into account.
If you want to debate it, debate it with Flayra, he's the one who made that decision. The fact knife does 30 damage vs aliens is an oversight, and I'm sure it will be corrected in a future build.
Regards,
Savant <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
But you miss the point. The knife is weak, which I clearly explain in my orginal post.
- The knife is a weak weapon
- The fact that the marines start with 3 different weapons and the aliens don't get 4 abilities till 3 hives is what help make it asymetrical
- Marines getting medpacks is irrelevent
- You can never use a grenade where you can use a knife
- If a marine wants to use his knife then he better realize he's putting himself at a huge disadvantage if he actually has to fight any skulks. Also, lets say 4 skulks charge one marine down a hallway. He manages to kill 3 and wound the 4th, and needs a little extra damage to win. Enter the knife. Using the knife to win does NOT mean you have bad aim. If anything, the knife takes very good aim to use properly due to how weak it is.
There is a reason that no matter what server stats you look at, the knife is at the bottem in kills. It is a very limited weapon that fits it's niche in NS gameplay nicely.
If the knife damage is lowered from 30 to 15 plus blast damage (so it deals 30 to buildings) is made in the next build, then I will be shocked considering that the knife has been one of the few things of NS that has never been changed from versions:
1.xx
2.xx
and so far 3.xx
Actually, now that I think about it, he did change the knife in version 1.xx, he lowered it's range, and with the new skulk hitboxes of 3.00 the knife is weak as ever.
If the knife damage was lowered further it would be useless. Right now it's at the point where aliens can consider it slightly leathal but is still the weakest in the marine's arsenal.
Reasons why it doesn't matter if people think the knife is fine:
-Marines are not supposed to have strong melee weapons
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Reasons why the knife will not be removed from NS:
-Marines do NOT have a strong melee weapon
The knife gets kills only against a weak target. The knife *alone* is not a strong weapon.
The knife is used as a last resort. It has a *small* chance of dealing the fatal blow if used in combination with the PRIMARY and SECONDARY weapons.
Furthermore, the knife adds a fun factor (for the marines) to NS. It is not common to score a knife kill, when a knife kill is made everyone notices because of the difficultly level involved in obtaining a knife kill.
Umm, marines almost always have Armor 1. The fact that marines can knife a skulk face to face and actually WIN is laughable and I can't believe you think that's normal.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->- Skulk is faster, marine pulls out knife and just starts swinging. Skulk pulls back. He then times when he goes in bites and pulls away. A good skulk will beat a knifer every time if he does this. Skulk wins, again. If skulk gets hit twice with a knife (three times to kill a skulk), skulk can run away and heal somewhere.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Skulks shouldn't have to be so careful to avoid being knife killed from <i>full health</i>. If the skulk has 30 hp then he doesn't have time to joust with the marine, if he's at melee range he's dead. Marines are not supposed to be even close to effective with a melee weapon, but they are.
And as for the running away scenario... Do you truly, honestly believe that a full-health skulk should have to RUN AWAY from a knifing marine just because he got hit twice? Knifing an alien, a melee creature mind you, should be completely ineffective if it does damage at all. Marines use ranged weapons, aliens use melee. The current knife makes marines entirely too effective in the skulk's prime range.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->- Marines who like to shoot you up a bit and then knife are just taking into account your noobiness and are essentially pimping out their knife score by taking advantage of your lack of tatics. They then take screenshots and add it to their knife kill collection.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So? Is there a reason this needs to be possible? This is not an important aspect of the game; they could have just finished shooting you before you got to them.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The fact is, the knife is inferrior to bite in every way imaginable and if you get killed by it, it is 100% at your fault.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You admitted yourself that an armor 1 knifing marine beats a skulk face to face, so it clearly is not such an inferior weapon. The fact is that for a team that is supposed to be committed entirely to ranged weapons, knifing is much too close to being on par with a skulk, even if it isn't quite there.
Please give me one good gameplay reason why knives need to be as effective as they are right now, and tell me how it would hurt the game if their damage was removed or set to 15 blast damage. Regardless of whether or not you feel they are overpowered, there's no question that knives are not supposed to be an effective weapon against aliens according to Flayra's own views, so why can't we weaken it?
<-this knifing marine
yes
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->But you miss the point. The knife is weak, which I clearly explain in my orginal post.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->Look, if you like the knife, that's cool. However, please don't try and insult my intelligence by saying the knife is weak.
Here is the REALITY of the knife, which has a BETTER ROF then skulk bite! (skulk bite ROF = .80 and knife ROF = .65)
Hive 1 skulk vs armour 1 marine = 3 bite hits to kill
Armour 1 marine vs hive 1 skulk = 3 knife hits to kill
Hive 2 skulk vs armour 2 marine = 4 bite hits to kill
Armour 2 marine vs hive 2 skulk = 4 knife hits to kill
Hive 3 skulk vs armour 3 marine = 4 bite hits to kill
Armour 3 marine vs hive 3 skulk = 4 knife hits to kill
The knife should NEVER EVER approach the effectiveness of the skulk bite. Flayra has said as much in principle, and leaving the knife is not an option. Considering the better rate of fire, then knife is technically a better weapon than skulk bite, and that is just pain wrong.
So please, spare me all the **** and 'knife is weak' crap because I'm not buying it. The knife does damage that is <b>EQUIVALENT</b> to skulk's 75 bite damage when the lower skulk health/armor is taken into account. Its like the marine has their own 'bite gun'.
You can't change the facts, and the facts speak for themselves.
Knife is just plain wrong. I don't care how you justify it.
Regards,
Savant
The skulk is a harder target to knife.
I didn't see this present in your argument. Are you playing games where you and the enemy run up to each other, stop, and then begin attacking until one of you drops?
<!--QuoteBegin-Savant+Mar 13 2004, 03:36 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Savant @ Mar 13 2004, 03:36 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Look, if you like the knife, that's cool. However, please don't try and insult my intelligence by saying the knife is weak.
So please, spare me all the **** and 'knife is weak' crap because I'm not buying it.
Knife is just plain wrong. I don't care how you justify it.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Now the problem I have with the above quoted statements is that I can say the same three things about the opposite point of view and nothing is accomplished.
1. Look, if you don't like the knife, that's cool. However, please don't try and insult my intelligence by saying the knife is strong.
2. So please, spare me all the **** and 'knife is strong' crap because I'm not buying it.
3. Knife is just fine. I don't care how you justify it.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Umm, marines almost always have Armor 1. The fact that marines can knife a skulk face to face and actually WIN is laughable and I can't believe you think that's normal.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Okay. That's if THEY SIT THERE FACE TO FACE.
Come on, if a skulk isn't going to use his speed advantage then I advocate the skulk should open up the console and type "exit" because he doesn't belong in NS.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Skulks shouldn't have to be so careful to avoid being knife killed from full health. If the skulk has 30 hp then he doesn't have time to joust with the marine, if he's at melee range he's dead. Marines are not supposed to be even close to effective with a melee weapon, but they are.
And as for the running away scenario... Do you truly, honestly believe that a full-health skulk should have to RUN AWAY from a knifing marine just because he got hit twice? Knifing an alien, a melee creature mind you, should be completely ineffective if it does damage at all. Marines use ranged weapons, aliens use melee. The current knife makes marines entirely too effective in the skulk's prime range.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
As soon as the marine pulls out the knife you immediately have enough time to joust around the marine. Don't tell me that hogwash, because I do it all the time.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->So? Is there a reason this needs to be possible? This is not an important aspect of the game; they could have just finished shooting you before you got to them.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There is a reason they do it, to test themselves. This is a game after all. Contrary what you may think, people who are good at this game still play it to have fun. If it makes the other person frustrated, then it should make the other person more determined not to be knifed next time.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Please give me one good gameplay reason why knives need to be as effective as they are right now, and tell me how it would hurt the game if their damage was removed or set to 15 blast damage. Regardless of whether or not you feel they are overpowered, there's no question that knives are not supposed to be an effective weapon against aliens according to Flayra's own views, so why can't we weaken it?
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Gameplay reason: To conserve ammo and take down buildings and it is a last resort weapon when playing against skilled oppionents.
Knives are not supposed to be effective weapons against aliens, and he is correct.
All of the alien classes can easily counter it, with the exception of the poor gorge.
Here's how:
- Skulk beats knife with suppieror speed
- Fade has too much hp to be solo'ed by a knife
- Onos has way too much hp to be solo'ed by a knife
- Lerk can fly and has enough hp to take a knife beating
Seriously... trying to justify a knife being overpowered sounds as rediculous to me as claiming parasite is overpowered.
I *know* this has been discussed before, but today I played vs some clanners on a random-pub. They would just shot with the pistol, pull out the knife and knife you.
I tried it myself and it's so easy it's redicilous.
The knife needs to be NERFED a LOT.
A marine isn't supposed to knife 2-3 skulks in a row when he's out of ammo. It's just the way it is. (yes i've done it myself). It's just...wrong. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Too strong? Oh come on, there's nothing too strong about the knife.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->There is a reason they do it, to test themselves. This is a game after all. Contrary what you may think, people who are good at this game still play it to have fun. If it makes the other person frustrated, then it should make the other person more determined not to be knifed next time. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->Funny how only certain things fall into this category. So why is it that aliens should learn to live with knife by being "more determined not to be knifed next time" and yet when knockback was disabled, marines killed by skulks couldn't be "more determined not to be surprized by a skulk next time"...?
I'm sorry, but this is blatent hypocracy and frankly it's pretty disgusting. You only want things your way. If people don't like your way they are expected to 'adapt', but you won't adapt to things you don't like. (knockback and higher skulk health being a prime example)
Knives run contrary to the PRINCIPLE of the game. They were never meant to be used as a weapon to kill. Ask Flayra. I'm sure he'll tell you as much. If you're not happy with his vision for the game, then perhaps you're playing the wrong game.
I may disagree with some of Flayra's decisions at times, but I never disagree with his vision for the game. It's his game and if he doesn't want marine to have strong melee weapons then marines don't get strong melee weapons. End of story.
Debating it won't change his vision.
Regards,
Savant
If you want to debate it, debate it with Flayra, he's the one who made that decision. The fact knife does 30 damage vs aliens is an oversight, and I'm sure it will be corrected in a future build. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Where are your sources? (links)
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->There is a reason they do it, to test themselves. This is a game after all. Contrary what you may think, people who are good at this game still play it to have fun. If it makes the other person frustrated, then it should make the other person more determined not to be knifed next time. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Funny how only certain things fall into this category. So why is it that aliens should learn to live with knife by being "more determined not to be knifed next time" and yet when knockback was disabled, marines killed by skulks couldn't be "more determined not to be surprized by a skulk next time"...?
I'm sorry, but this is blatent hypocracy and frankly it's pretty disgusting. You only want things your way. If people don't like your way they are expected to 'adapt', but you won't adapt to things you don't like. (knockback and higher skulk health being a prime example) <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Telling others to adapt to the knife is fine in principle because I, like many many others have already done it.
On the other hand, remove KB and marines will get flat out owned, by a skulk who simply camps a courner. Marines must push forward, and they must do it with JUST LMG's at the most important parts of the game, and if they cannot surrive against something as simple as a skulk who camps a courner (lots of strategy there) then I guarentee you the game will not be fun.
Higher skulk HP will do nothing but unbalance the game towards the alien side.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Knives run contrary to the PRINCIPLE of the game. They were never meant to be used as a weapon to kill. Ask Flayra. I'm sure he'll tell you as much. If you're not happy with his vision for the game, then perhaps you're playing the wrong game.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm sure Flayra perfectly knows how much the knife deals and what it is capable of, and that is why the knife is one of the least changed things after 1 and a half years of development.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I may disagree with some of Flayra's decisions at times, but I never disagree with his vision for the game. It's his game and if he doesn't want marine to have strong melee weapons then marines don't get strong melee weapons. End of story. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Rgr that we'll see how Flay approaches this.
It may be a melee weapon, but its an "Oh **** I'm going to die so I'm going to pray that I can gut one of them darn aliens too!" weapon.
There is no problem with the knife.
Its just plain silly.
Damage is fine, the Knockback for higher lifeforms isn't. Purely from an asthetic point of view.
My clanmate do it all the time, he drags his pistol, and when the skulk comes near he just slashes with his knife. 1/3-1/4 of his kills are knife kills, at least in pubs.
The marines has the LMG, takes about 10 or 11 bullets to kill a skulk. The pistol takes like 4-5. And THEN they also have knife that takes 3 hits to kill a skulk.
The skulk have parasite, which will take forever to kill a full-health marine, and then they have bite, their main weapon.
Well, let's make marines dominate long-range, and mid-range, and then let them have a good chance in melee fights. YAY! GG Balance.