Now i'm not saying the knife is overpowred or anything, but i'm gonna have to disagree with you salor. The knife's range is a lot farther than you think, and the rof makes it pretty good for killing weakened skulks. Its not a last resort, in fact sometimes I prefer using the knife to finish off a skulk rather than my pistol. Its easy to do, just press 3 and click and hold when the skulk gets close(hud_fastswitch 1). Though personally I think its fine for marines to have a decent melee weapon, its not like the knife is causing a lot of problems. If it ain't broke don't fix it
Rines should get brass knuckles instead, that have half the range of the knife and deal 5 dmg and have a rof of 1 punch per second. That way, he'll be entierly defencless against anything should he expend all his ammo.
/sarcasm
Ok. Let me see something here. The knife is overpowered because the rine will win in a strategyless fight? Maybe you all haven't noticed this, but the rine's tend to win direct conflict. Aliens win the war of attrition. I suppose if the alien player doesn't utilize any other tool than "+attack" then yes, the knifer's gonna come out on top.
Did it, however, occur to anyone that there's more to fighting in this game than "omg traed hits foer teh wein!" A skulk, haveing played the game for even a small amount of time, and haveing such abilites as "basic movement know-how" and decent tracking ability will almost always come out on top.
Adapt. Don't complain because one doesn't have a full knowlege about an area. Statistically, a skulk will win. Keeping in mind, this isn't a game of "ok. Let me slash you. Thanks. Bite me once... ow, alright, my turn to slash you again!" Statistically means looking at all variables- Speed, range, power, etc.
After looking at all of the variables, one will realize that there really isn't a problem.
I don't think anybody's seriously arguing that the knife is overpowered compared to a skulk bite.. that's a straw-man, so stop setting it up.
I also don't think anybody's seriously arguing that the knife is overpowered compared to the marines other weapons. That's another straw-man. Again, stop setting it up.
What's being argued is that the knife is overpowered as the marine's off-weapon. If the marines are ranged specialized, the knife is overpowered as a CQ weapon.
For those of you who are arguing the knife *shouldn't* be changed, please tell me the reasoning.. how would changing the knife to 15 blast damage harm the marines game? If it isn't overpowered, surely the difference in kills that could be made before and after the change wouldn't unbalance the game? Or are you folks suggesting that the marines need the knife the way it is for the game to be balanced?
<!--QuoteBegin-Wasian+Mar 17 2004, 03:58 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Wasian @ Mar 17 2004, 03:58 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> You guys are missing the main point. The point is that marines ARE NOT supposed to have a viable melee weapon. They are ranged units, and therefor should have strong ranged attacks and either nothing or pure crap for melee. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Says you.
As I stated before in this thread, in the two years I've been playing the knife has changed a negligible amount. Don't you think that the vets and dev team and playtesters might have caught on if it was overpowered by now?
Sorry that your vision of the game is inconsistant with the dev team's. If you dislike it enough, go play something else.
With acid rockets nerfed, the only alien ranged weapon is Spores. So lets compare it with the knife.
Spores: Last a while, area effect. Knife: Fairly hard to hit with, one-time damage.
So, marines have exactly one melee weapon (well, nadespam at your feet, but that's pure crap anyway), and aliens have exactly one ranged weapon. Any more issues to raise based on your inability to compensate for marine's one melee option?
Someone said earlier that any good skulk should be able to out joust a marine. Does anyone else find it proposterious that a skulk should have to "joust" with a marine. Myself I find my skulk attacks most often screwed by knifers when I back off from thier knife to go for another rush (because any good skulk knows that sitting under a knifing marine with a greater ROF and dizzying knockback effect, is suicide) and then they choose to pull out the pistol and put the last couple shots into me. When I invision a marine VS skulk encounter I tend to assume that the screwedness of the marine is directly proportional to the closeness of the skulk to him, with the knife the way it is, that just isn't true any more. I've seen many players in 3.0 who I'm fairly confident could match thier deaths with kills on your average pub, knifing only. Weather the knife is "overpowered" or not, I don't really know, but if the knife isn't supposed to be a viable weapon against skulks, then it certainly isn't playing its role.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->As I stated before in this thread, in the two years I've been playing the knife has changed a negligible amount. Don't you think that the vets and dev team and playtesters might have caught on if it was overpowered by now?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> that is true, but the skulks total hitpoints have never been as low as they are now either. In every other version the knife was a 4 hit kill at one hive, now it kills in 3.
<!--QuoteBegin-coris+Mar 20 2004, 10:52 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (coris @ Mar 20 2004, 10:52 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Also remember that the new hitboxxes makes knifing skulks a ton easier (imo). <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Actually it's harder, because the hitboxes are half the size.
<!--QuoteBegin-Forlorn+Mar 20 2004, 07:14 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Forlorn @ Mar 20 2004, 07:14 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-coris+Mar 20 2004, 10:52 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (coris @ Mar 20 2004, 10:52 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Also remember that the new hitboxxes makes knifing skulks a ton easier (imo). <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Actually it's harder, because the hitboxes are half the size. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> No, knifing a skulk to the side/right under you is easier.
with the effective damage cone of the knife the skulk hitbox could be one pixle big and it still wouldn't be that hard to hit, the knife is by no means a difficult weapon to target, it's timing the slashes that is difficult. The whole concept of jousting with marines is proposterous, you shouldn't have to waste time dancing around marines, expecially when you consider that the time you waste is time the marine could be spending reloading his weapon (why else would he be knifing?) or more rine backup could be coming at any minute. A marine who has expended all his ammo should be screwed, period.
Yes, well, lets take a look at the title of this game. It's called "Natural Selection" for a reason. Lets let due process take its route, and let those who get knifed continue whilst those of us who realize there's more to fighting than OMG BITEBITEBIETTEIB continue to beat a knife.
BTW, with the fixed hitboxes it is simply harder to hit a smaller target. To say otherwise makes no sense- you're essentially saying, "Now that it's a smaller target it's easier to hit."
The knife is a viable last resort. Alone, it cannot contend with a skulk, unless the skulk has some issues with being unable to hit a marine. In which case, that skulk was probably going to die regardless to the knife's current damage.
I'm not insulting skill, I'm looking at all the variables. Go scrim someone, anyone at all, and use nothing but the knife. Tell me it's overpowered afterwards. Mean it.
You can't.
Now, should the knife lose it's "last chance finisher" status, than it seems to me that some people are getting angry because the rine doesn't necessarily need ammo to deal with a severly wounded skulk. Which is once again, your own problem. If the skulk play's their cards right, they could beat a knifing marine who's shot all his ammo off even if they only had 1 hp, and the rine had armor 3.
I fail to see any problems with the knife.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> expecially when you consider that the time you waste is time the marine could be spending reloading his weapon (why else would he be knifing?) <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Oh, and btw, a rine cannot knife and reload at the same time. Kinda obvious, but hey, someone said it.
The main reason for keeping the knife as-is is that it is a fun-factor. It is FUN using the knife! And as we all agree the knife does nothing to balance in general, let me just have my fun for the sake of evil-eliteness.
<!--QuoteBegin-tjosan+Mar 22 2004, 01:56 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (tjosan @ Mar 22 2004, 01:56 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> The main reason for keeping the knife as-is is that it is a fun-factor. It is FUN using the knife! And as we all agree the knife does nothing to balance in general, let me just have my fun for the sake of evil-eliteness. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Okay. So how would this fun be reduced if the knife damage or RoF was reduced?
It would still be evil-eliteness if you got a kill. More-so even, it would be like the long lost leap kill, or the always hilarious parasite kill.
Heck, if increased damage leads to increased fun, let's have a 50 damage spit and a 20 damage parasite. Then all the aliens will be having fun too and these arguments will go away, right?
<!--QuoteBegin-NGE+Mar 22 2004, 08:09 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (NGE @ Mar 22 2004, 08:09 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I'm not insulting skill, I'm looking at all the variables. Go scrim someone, anyone at all, and use nothing but the knife. Tell me it's overpowered afterwards. Mean it.
You can't.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Hi there. That's a lovely scarecrow, but we've seen it already. Want to try something new? Nobody but those against altering the knife have suggested that it's the marine's weapon of choice.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Now, should the knife lose it's "last chance finisher" status, than it seems to me that some people are getting angry because the rine doesn't necessarily need ammo to deal with a severly wounded skulk. Which is once again, your own problem. If the skulk play's their cards right, they could beat a knifing marine who's shot all his ammo off even if they only had 1 hp, and the rine had armor 3. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Okay. That's a better argument, at least it's not a straw-man.
However, it seems backwards to me. Perhaps the problem is that marines get babied with a last chance finisher. If they can't finish off the skulk before it gets within knife range, maybe it should be the marine's problem -- and not any problem <b>what-so-ever</b> for the team that is intended to be the CQ specialists.
In other words, if marines can't get the job done with their specialty weapon, why should the skulks even have to *think* about avoiding death from the marine's CQ weapon?
In some ways, that strikes me as making as much sense as a marine having to worry about dying because there's a skulk behind a non-breakable grate that can see him.
If you wanna find the opposite of a rine shooting a skulk then finishing him with a knife, the skulk taking a bite out of the marine and finishing him with a parasite is the otherside. But parasite sucks down alot of energy and takes awile to shoot for a limited distance and weak damage weapon. The knife still does superb damage for being melee against skulks. People whine and say that a good skulk that knows movement could easily put an end to the rine tend to forget that this is a team game. The rine is supposed to be in a group. Not only is that skulk taking on a "weak rine left with a knife" hes also taking on the rest of the team. I've done enough close encounters ramboing and getting knife kills, even against fades in the random factor. If a marine is reduced to a knife, his team should help him, he shouldnt be able to help him self.
a shotgun is a ranged weapon which has to be purchased for 10 res. the knife is for free.
again i think that good players are not meant to make a knife kill every 5 kills. i had a very skilled player on my server today and he made short work of all the public "Noobs". well they were clearly not as skilled as him, but he should not be able to kill 2 in a row with his knife when they try to get 2 bites on him. he owned nealy everyone the normal way with his shottie, but it just sucks when you managed to get close a he finishes you with his last resort weapon.
being very good with the knife should not have such a big impact on gameplay.
If youre a decent skulk then youre gonna own that knifer any day of the week. Dying to a knife is a personal problem and really only shows a lack of skill on the skulk's side and a bit of luck on the marine's side.
<!--QuoteBegin-Abix+Mar 24 2004, 05:45 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Abix @ Mar 24 2004, 05:45 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Dying to a knife is a personal problem and really only shows a lack of skill on the skulk's side and a <b>bit</b> of luck on the marine's side. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> (Emphasis added)
And this is where the problem lies. Should it only take a bit of luck on the marine's side? Shouldn't it take a lot of luck, much like a skulk getting a parasite (or these days, leap) kill?
It keeps coming down to this issue of degree. Nobody's going to argue that the knife is a superior skulk killing weapon. What we're arguing is that it's just a little too good as a free, close-quarters weapon on the side of the team that's not supposed to be close-quarter's specialists.
I use the knife a lot and I agree it needs to be toned down. It's become second nature for me to pull my knife out and I can take out quite a few skulks in a row with it. Once you get armor, you're laughing.
The knife does damage. What do you expect? If a skulk stands in front of a marine that knifes it 3 times, it deserves to die. The alien team is about guerrilla tactics, not walking slowly in straight lines in an open field like the British in the Revolutionary War.
Think about it. Only attack when you can live, and you do permenant damage because marine armor rarely ever gets healed.
If a marine is knifing you because he can since he has upgraded armor: 1) Do not stand there and get knifed. 2) You're losing.
Thinking that that's the only way skulks can be killed by a knife shows a clear lack of experience with knifing and/or being knifed... You don't have to just stand there, it is [U]very easy[U] for a marine to finish a skulk off with one or two knife slashes.
<!--QuoteBegin-Zek+Mar 28 2004, 10:24 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Zek @ Mar 28 2004, 10:24 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Thinking that that's the only way skulks can be killed by a knife shows a clear lack of experience with knifing and/or being knifed... You don't have to just stand there, it is [U]very easy[U] for a marine to finish a skulk off with one or two knife slashes. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> IF the skulk is a complete newbie, then yes
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Knifing with speed hack/aimbot was a common humiliation tactic in 1.04. Maybe some clanners are picking it up again?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin-Sizer+Mar 29 2004, 06:56 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Sizer @ Mar 29 2004, 06:56 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Knifing with speed hack/aimbot was a common humiliation tactic in 1.04. Maybe some clanners are picking it up again? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> ROFL I knife skulks all the time wo aimbot <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo--> And I always take ss of it, soon ill create a knif-kill mosaic or something <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo-->
I actually made a very similar <a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=65494' target='_blank'>thread</a> in Suggestions around the time Savant did here (copycat :p ), and we pretty much have the same comments and conclusion - I called it "reverse blast damage," myself (10 to players, 30 structures). I'm not asking anyone to bump the thread - in fact, I'm actively discouraging that, unless there's something specific you'd like to address that can't be done in this active thread - but it might be worth a read, just to put things in a different perspective. Unfortunately, the replies in both seem to be of the same average caliber.
This is actually a somewhat notable issue for me, as I believe it's the second time I've extensively agreed with Savant on anything.
Also, does anyone have actual numerical values of knife range versus bite range, hitbox-to-hitbox? It seems that in practice, skulk agility means absolutely nothing, as bite is a melee attack. Marine can stay motionless and just wait for the skulk to move in, as he can spin as fast as needed to keep the skulk in his "sights." Also seems that if there's a difference in range, it's a rather minor one.
<!--QuoteBegin-OG17+Mar 29 2004, 11:35 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (OG17 @ Mar 29 2004, 11:35 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I actually made a very similar <a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=65494' target='_blank'>thread</a> in Suggestions around the time Savant did here (copycat <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo--> ), and we pretty much have the same comments and conclusion - I called it "reverse blast damage," myself (10 to players, 30 structures). I'm not asking anyone to bump the thread - in fact, I'm actively discouraging that, unless there's something specific you'd like to address that can't be done in this active thread - but it might be worth a read, just to put things in a different perspective. Unfortunately, the replies in both seem to be of the same average caliber.
This is actually a somewhat notable issue for me, as I believe it's the second time I've extensively agreed with Savant on anything.
Also, does anyone have actual numerical values of knife range versus bite range, hitbox-to-hitbox? It seems that in practice, skulk agility means absolutely nothing, as bite is a melee attack. Marine can stay motionless and just wait for the skulk to move in, as he can spin as fast as needed to keep the skulk in his "sights." Also seems that if there's a difference in range, it's a rather minor one. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Another misinformed activist
If you actually really think to understand this game, you'd know that the knife's range is smaller than a skulk's bite range, and it's noticiable enough to the point where I can be bhopping full speed as a skulk and still hit the marine first.
The fact that you're "bunnyhopping at full speed" is completely irrelevant; range is the issue, and range would be the same if both you and the marine were slowly circling together in the classic knife-fight manner, arm tied to claw. And as I said, whatever the difference in range may be, it's very small, and (if range is the balancing factor we're going with in this example) a skulk should not need to show extraordinary skill in order to land a bite while staying out of knife range. Even if he is able to bunnyhop.
So as this aspect of the discussion seems to boil down to "range is really different" and "no it's not," does anyone have the numbers?
<!--QuoteBegin-OG17+Mar 29 2004, 02:02 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (OG17 @ Mar 29 2004, 02:02 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> a skulk should not need to show extraordinary skill in order to land a bite while staying out of knife range. Even if he is able to bunnyhop. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I do believe Forlorn has been trying to say that it does not require a great deal of skill to avoid being knifed.
Comments
Though personally I think its fine for marines to have a decent melee weapon, its not like the knife is causing a lot of problems. If it ain't broke don't fix it
Rines should get brass knuckles instead, that have half the range of the knife and deal 5 dmg and have a rof of 1 punch per second. That way, he'll be entierly defencless against anything should he expend all his ammo.
/sarcasm
Ok. Let me see something here. The knife is overpowered because the rine will win in a strategyless fight? Maybe you all haven't noticed this, but the rine's tend to win direct conflict. Aliens win the war of attrition. I suppose if the alien player doesn't utilize any other tool than "+attack" then yes, the knifer's gonna come out on top.
Did it, however, occur to anyone that there's more to fighting in this game than "omg traed hits foer teh wein!" A skulk, haveing played the game for even a small amount of time, and haveing such abilites as "basic movement know-how" and decent tracking ability will almost always come out on top.
Adapt. Don't complain because one doesn't have a full knowlege about an area. Statistically, a skulk will win. Keeping in mind, this isn't a game of "ok. Let me slash you. Thanks. Bite me once... ow, alright, my turn to slash you again!" Statistically means looking at all variables- Speed, range, power, etc.
After looking at all of the variables, one will realize that there really isn't a problem.
I also don't think anybody's seriously arguing that the knife is overpowered compared to the marines other weapons. That's another straw-man. Again, stop setting it up.
What's being argued is that the knife is overpowered as the marine's off-weapon. If the marines are ranged specialized, the knife is overpowered as a CQ weapon.
For those of you who are arguing the knife *shouldn't* be changed, please tell me the reasoning.. how would changing the knife to 15 blast damage harm the marines game? If it isn't overpowered, surely the difference in kills that could be made before and after the change wouldn't unbalance the game? Or are you folks suggesting that the marines need the knife the way it is for the game to be balanced?
Says you.
As I stated before in this thread, in the two years I've been playing the knife has changed a negligible amount. Don't you think that the vets and dev team and playtesters might have caught on if it was overpowered by now?
Sorry that your vision of the game is inconsistant with the dev team's. If you dislike it enough, go play something else.
With acid rockets nerfed, the only alien ranged weapon is Spores. So lets compare it with the knife.
Spores: Last a while, area effect.
Knife: Fairly hard to hit with, one-time damage.
So, marines have exactly one melee weapon (well, nadespam at your feet, but that's pure crap anyway), and aliens have exactly one ranged weapon. Any more issues to raise based on your inability to compensate for marine's one melee option?
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->As I stated before in this thread, in the two years I've been playing the knife has changed a negligible amount. Don't you think that the vets and dev team and playtesters might have caught on if it was overpowered by now?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
that is true, but the skulks total hitpoints have never been as low as they are now either. In every other version the knife was a 4 hit kill at one hive, now it kills in 3.
Actually it's harder, because the hitboxes are half the size.
Actually it's harder, because the hitboxes are half the size. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
No, knifing a skulk to the side/right under you is easier.
BTW, with the fixed hitboxes it is simply harder to hit a smaller target. To say otherwise makes no sense- you're essentially saying, "Now that it's a smaller target it's easier to hit."
The knife is a viable last resort. Alone, it cannot contend with a skulk, unless the skulk has some issues with being unable to hit a marine. In which case, that skulk was probably going to die regardless to the knife's current damage.
I'm not insulting skill, I'm looking at all the variables. Go scrim someone, anyone at all, and use nothing but the knife. Tell me it's overpowered afterwards. Mean it.
You can't.
Now, should the knife lose it's "last chance finisher" status, than it seems to me that some people are getting angry because the rine doesn't necessarily need ammo to deal with a severly wounded skulk. Which is once again, your own problem. If the skulk play's their cards right, they could beat a knifing marine who's shot all his ammo off even if they only had 1 hp, and the rine had armor 3.
I fail to see any problems with the knife.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> expecially when you consider that the time you waste is time the marine could be spending reloading his weapon (why else would he be knifing?) <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Oh, and btw, a rine cannot knife and reload at the same time. Kinda obvious, but hey, someone said it.
Okay.
So how would this fun be reduced if the knife damage or RoF was reduced?
It would still be evil-eliteness if you got a kill. More-so even, it would be like the long lost leap kill, or the always hilarious parasite kill.
Heck, if increased damage leads to increased fun, let's have a 50 damage spit and a 20 damage parasite. Then all the aliens will be having fun too and these arguments will go away, right?
You can't.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Hi there. That's a lovely scarecrow, but we've seen it already. Want to try something new? Nobody but those against altering the knife have suggested that it's the marine's weapon of choice.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Now, should the knife lose it's "last chance finisher" status, than it seems to me that some people are getting angry because the rine doesn't necessarily need ammo to deal with a severly wounded skulk. Which is once again, your own problem. If the skulk play's their cards right, they could beat a knifing marine who's shot all his ammo off even if they only had 1 hp, and the rine had armor 3.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Okay. That's a better argument, at least it's not a straw-man.
However, it seems backwards to me. Perhaps the problem is that marines get babied with a last chance finisher. If they can't finish off the skulk before it gets within knife range, maybe it should be the marine's problem -- and not any problem <b>what-so-ever</b> for the team that is intended to be the CQ specialists.
In other words, if marines can't get the job done with their specialty weapon, why should the skulks even have to *think* about avoiding death from the marine's CQ weapon?
In some ways, that strikes me as making as much sense as a marine having to worry about dying because there's a skulk behind a non-breakable grate that can see him.
again i think that good players are not meant to make a knife kill every 5 kills. i had a very skilled player on my server today and he made short work of all the public "Noobs". well they were clearly not as skilled as him, but he should not be able to kill 2 in a row with his knife when they try to get 2 bites on him. he owned nealy everyone the normal way with his shottie, but it just sucks when you managed to get close a he finishes you with his last resort weapon.
being very good with the knife should not have such a big impact on gameplay.
If youre a decent skulk then youre gonna own that knifer any day of the week. Dying to a knife is a personal problem and really only shows a lack of skill on the skulk's side and a bit of luck on the marine's side.
(Emphasis added)
And this is where the problem lies. Should it only take a bit of luck on the marine's side? Shouldn't it take a lot of luck, much like a skulk getting a parasite (or these days, leap) kill?
It keeps coming down to this issue of degree. Nobody's going to argue that the knife is a superior skulk killing weapon. What we're arguing is that it's just a little too good as a free, close-quarters weapon on the side of the team that's not supposed to be close-quarter's specialists.
Think about it. Only attack when you can live, and you do permenant damage because marine armor rarely ever gets healed.
If a marine is knifing you because he can since he has upgraded armor:
1) Do not stand there and get knifed.
2) You're losing.
IF the skulk is a complete newbie, then yes
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Knifing with speed hack/aimbot was a common humiliation tactic in 1.04. Maybe some clanners are picking it up again?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Clanners love to hack and cheat, right on big boy
ROFL I knife skulks all the time wo aimbot <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
And I always take ss of it, soon ill create a knif-kill mosaic or something <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo-->
This is actually a somewhat notable issue for me, as I believe it's the second time I've extensively agreed with Savant on anything.
Also, does anyone have actual numerical values of knife range versus bite range, hitbox-to-hitbox? It seems that in practice, skulk agility means absolutely nothing, as bite is a melee attack. Marine can stay motionless and just wait for the skulk to move in, as he can spin as fast as needed to keep the skulk in his "sights." Also seems that if there's a difference in range, it's a rather minor one.
This is actually a somewhat notable issue for me, as I believe it's the second time I've extensively agreed with Savant on anything.
Also, does anyone have actual numerical values of knife range versus bite range, hitbox-to-hitbox? It seems that in practice, skulk agility means absolutely nothing, as bite is a melee attack. Marine can stay motionless and just wait for the skulk to move in, as he can spin as fast as needed to keep the skulk in his "sights." Also seems that if there's a difference in range, it's a rather minor one. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Another misinformed activist
If you actually really think to understand this game, you'd know that the knife's range is smaller than a skulk's bite range, and it's noticiable enough to the point where I can be bhopping full speed as a skulk and still hit the marine first.
So as this aspect of the discussion seems to boil down to "range is really different" and "no it's not," does anyone have the numbers?
I do believe Forlorn has been trying to say that it does not require a great deal of skill to avoid being knifed.