Wow. I cant' believe there is a discussion on this. The knife is not overpowered at all. If you can shoot a skulk then knife if really quick, that shows the skulk was noobish and ran straight at you. It all comes down to who is better than who. I challenge anyone to play in a clan match with a good clan, not some pub clan, to use their knife consistently and have a even score. Use your little shoot then knife trick, You'll just be beaten silly. For people using that stupid argument that marines shoudln't get a strong melee weapon, a bit too late for that. Hey I'll go get a shotty. I betcha i am damn near as effective as a fade in melee combat. Knife is not a strong melee weapon. Its a desperation weapon when ur out of bullets. you get that last 30 damage in a skulk wth a knife, thats not overpowered. THats the gun leaving its effect on the skulk.
<!--QuoteBegin-ElectricSheep+Mar 13 2004, 03:33 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (ElectricSheep @ Mar 13 2004, 03:33 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Zek, Savnt are you serious? The knife is weak! Its damn hard to die as a skulk to just a knife, or even a knife at all. You're hella fast and small, just dodge a bit to the side and bite. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Pump some rounds into a skulk, then take out your knife and crouch, walking towards him while swinging. Its not hard at all.
EDIT:: I'm actually in favor of removing the knife completly. Maybe the marines could get a secondary attack on all weapons for rifle butt or what not, this way we could add yet another weapon to the game in place of the knife. Theres no reason why we cant have a "secondary fire" weapon just because your right mouse is taken, just use a seperate key.
<!--QuoteBegin-Forlorn+Mar 16 2004, 06:39 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Forlorn @ Mar 16 2004, 06:39 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Kalias+Mar 16 2004, 05:25 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Kalias @ Mar 16 2004, 05:25 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Why do you people insist on comparing marines with knives only to full skulks? The whole point is that the marines have all these ranged alternatives before they get to you... let's say a marine isn't very good with guns... and takes the skulk down to 59hp, that's not much damage with your lmg... what... three bullets? He runs out and draws his knife when they reach him... now lets assume the marine player is just as good as a skulk player in close combat... he only needs two hits, faster than bite, assuming the marine doesn't even have any armour would you tell me he doesn't have a good chance at killing the skulk? Now why does taking him down to 30 hp, about a third of their health, mean the marine should be easily able to kill the skulk, just because he couldn't kill them fast enough with their gun? Lets turn this around, lets say the marines couldn't shoot until the aliens reached melee range... and then had to evade the aliens for several seconds before they were allowed to start shooting, you may consider this a ludicrous situation... but this is generally the sort of thing an alien has to do. You'd want the weapon to be powerful enough to compensate for the effort and skill it took to live long enough. Now what if the aliens were also given a weapon that, when you take the amount of HP into account, can kill you 60% as well as you could kill with your new weapon, you'd think it was bloody stupid, and rightfully so.
You can't really argue the 'range' point, I don't know a single person who kills a marines by staying just out of knife range constantly and biting them from there, the range difference doesn't change that much. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Had you read meep's post above yours you'd realize that if both the skulk and the marine are equal in skill the skulk will win every time <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The fact is a good skulk has every advantage to take over a knife, if he loses to one it's his own fault.
Just time when you attack, as you are faster, and the knife will never kill you.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Is this how you justify a 'skulk winning every time'? I've said it before, but there's no difference between timing a bite and timing a knife slash. Furthermore, the knife slash is easier to follow up because of the disorienting knockback.
You're faster? As soon as I hit the fire button, I do damage. It doesn't take time to 'wind up' my knife attack. So what are you faster then? Light? I don't have to move, not at all. I can just crouch there, since the skulk has to come within knife range to hit me anyway. Let's see the skulk run circles around my 90 sensitivity.
<!--QuoteBegin-EEK+Mar 16 2004, 07:35 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (EEK @ Mar 16 2004, 07:35 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I don't have to move, not at all. I can just crouch there, since the skulk has to come within knife range to hit me anyway. Let's see the skulk run circles around my 90 sensitivity. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Wrong, bite has more range than knife
<!--QuoteBegin-Forlorn+Mar 17 2004, 01:57 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Forlorn @ Mar 17 2004, 01:57 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-EEK+Mar 16 2004, 07:35 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (EEK @ Mar 16 2004, 07:35 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I don't have to move, not at all. I can just crouch there, since the skulk has to come within knife range to hit me anyway. Let's see the skulk run circles around my 90 sensitivity. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Wrong, bite has more range than knife
Try again <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> So, what, I'm going to slowly use-walk towards a marine knifing so I can nip him out the range? You have any proof or is this just more of your usual talking-out-your-****?
<!--QuoteBegin-EEK+Mar 17 2004, 10:26 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (EEK @ Mar 17 2004, 10:26 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> So, what, I'm going to slowly use-walk towards a marine knifing so I can nip him out the range? You have any proof or is this just more of your usual talking-out-your-****? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> EEK, before flaming, have you actually tried it ?
His point is that the range difference is small enough that it is very difficult for most players to perfectly place their bites so that they hit the marine but are out of range of his knife. Forlorn likes to pretend that Skulks have complete knife immunity if they know what they're doing but it just isn't true.
Bite does, indeed, have a longer range than a knife....by a few units that is.
The problem right now with the knife is that it is too meritable of a melee-ranged weapon. While Forlorn's argument still stands, I don't believe a skulk should lose to a knife, because it's a general rule that aliens get more of the melee advantage.
Seing that the knife has a <i>slightly</i> faster RoF (by a few milliseconds), and it's hard to time when to bite at minimum range, you can see why they're complaining. A marine that has below decent aim that manages to get a couple of hits on a skulk can pretty much take out a skulk at close range, which isn't supposed to be the case.
I remember back then when you were against suggestion of having better melee weapons or having knife damage befed up Forlorn, but I remember that you always said that marines die at melee range. This isn't true anymore due to the fact that :
- Skulk hitboxes are still easy, or should I say, much easier to hit at melee range because of the new hitboxes - Decreased HP and armor of the skulk - Skulks usually don't have much health left by the time he reaches the marine unless the marine can't even hit the broad side of a nuclear plant at pointblank.
I myself have no beef with the knife unless I'm a Gorge but that's a different issue all together <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
In short, what I'm saying is that skulks don't even get enough health left to survive at least 2 slices if the marine's aim is decent. Even if you do manage to get in range, just <b>1</b> slice from the knife, you get the shakey screen, and then it's all over.
If you want to convince people that the knife is overpowered, all you have to do is go into a pub server and slaughter many aliens with your knife. Once you have slaughtered the masses of aliens with your 'effective' melee weapon I'm sure we will receive plenty of forum posts backing you up about how the knife is so overpowered.
<!--QuoteBegin-EEK+Mar 17 2004, 04:26 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (EEK @ Mar 17 2004, 04:26 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Forlorn+Mar 17 2004, 01:57 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Forlorn @ Mar 17 2004, 01:57 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-EEK+Mar 16 2004, 07:35 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (EEK @ Mar 16 2004, 07:35 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I don't have to move, not at all. I can just crouch there, since the skulk has to come within knife range to hit me anyway. Let's see the skulk run circles around my 90 sensitivity. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Wrong, bite has more range than knife
Try again <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> So, what, I'm going to slowly use-walk towards a marine knifing so I can nip him out the range? You have any proof or is this just more of your usual talking-out-your-****? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> You don't have to slowly walk up to him, if you are good, smart, and know the game you can just bhop up to him and bite him in the little extra range you have, pull away so he can't hit you, rinse and repeat.
The only way to kill a good skulk with a knife is to CHARGE the skulk with a marine, which just goes to show you what a disadvantage it puts you at.
Why don't you learn how to play the game before complaining it's unfair?
Seems to me you best argument is "OMG, I CAN'T BEAT IT... NERF. NOW"
Also, I just realized something... you play with 90 sensitivity? Perhaps this is why you use the knife so much?
<!--QuoteBegin-RaVe+Mar 17 2004, 08:13 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (RaVe @ Mar 17 2004, 08:13 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> The problem right now with the knife is that it is too meritable of a melee-ranged weapon. While Forlorn's argument still stands, I don't believe a skulk should lose to a knife, because it's a general rule that aliens get more of the melee advantage. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Using this login, then marine's shouldnt die to Acid rockets or lerk spores. But I would maintain that in all those cases (knife, AR, spores) the dieing party isnt killed by any of them, they're killed by a more primary weapon (LMG in the case of the knife, maybe skulks biting them in the case of AR/Spores), and the knife/AR/Spores are just the cleanup.
I did some testing last nite for the fun of it. And the range difference on the knife vs bite is pretty significant. The knife also needs to be aimed properly where-as the skulk bite pretty much doesn't. Standing and looking straight out, you cant hit a skulk on the ground with your knife. You have to either crouch down or aim down to hit him.
Man.. I still cant believe we're arguing over this...
You guys are missing the main point. The point is that marines ARE NOT supposed to have a viable melee weapon. They are ranged units, and therefor should have strong ranged attacks and either nothing or pure crap for melee. Just like the skulk has crap/pure nothing for a ranged "attack" (para really isn't even an attack and calling it such is misleading) and a powerful melee.
Honestly, the knife should be considered a utility tool, not a weapon. It's primary purpose should be to destroy buildings. I'm in favor of the 15 blast damage for the knife, allowing the most meager amount of hope for a knife kill.
Or up the parasite damage to 30. That would make it equal. Marines are supposed to be horrible at melee yet they have a powerful knife that does 30 damage a hit. The skulk is supposed to be horrible at ranged (and he is), but to be fair we should give it a 30 damage ranged attack. Equivalent trade (sorta).
And are you just ignoring what zek is saying? The point he's making is that skulk bite IS stronger than the knife. He's not arguing that the knife is a really strong weapon. He's arguing that based on what it should be it is too strong. I agree that a good skulk should not get knifed in 1v1 combat, but it happens. But the knife shouldn't even be considered a weapon in combat, if you run out of bullets and the skulk is still alive you should have a 5-10% chance of living. Currently, you have a much higher chance of getting a lucky/skillful hit on a skulk and killing him with a weapon you shouldn't even be using.
Until I see as many parasite kills per game as I see knife kills I'll argue that the marines should not have a combat melee weapon.
<!--QuoteBegin-Wasian+Mar 17 2004, 03:58 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Wasian @ Mar 17 2004, 03:58 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> You guys are missing the main point. The point is that marines ARE NOT supposed to have a viable melee weapon. They are ranged units, and therefor should have strong ranged attacks and either nothing or pure crap for melee. Just like the skulk has crap/pure nothing for a ranged "attack" (para really isn't even an attack and calling it such is misleading) and a powerful melee.
Honestly, the knife should be considered a utility tool, not a weapon. It's primary purpose should be to destroy buildings. I'm in favor of the 15 blast damage for the knife, allowing the most meager amount of hope for a knife kill.
Or up the parasite damage to 30. That would make it equal. Marines are supposed to be horrible at melee yet they have a powerful knife that does 30 damage a hit. The skulk is supposed to be horrible at ranged (and he is), but to be fair we should give it a 30 damage ranged attack. Equivalent trade (sorta).
And are you just ignoring what zek is saying? The point he's making is that skulk bite IS stronger than the knife. He's not arguing that the knife is a really strong weapon. He's arguing that based on what it should be it is too strong. I agree that a good skulk should not get knifed in 1v1 combat, but it happens. But the knife shouldn't even be considered a weapon in combat, if you run out of bullets and the skulk is still alive you should have a 5-10% chance of living. Currently, you have a much higher chance of getting a lucky/skillful hit on a skulk and killing him with a weapon you shouldn't even be using.
Until I see as many parasite kills per game as I see knife kills I'll argue that the marines should not have a combat melee weapon. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Then why let aliens have ranged attacks??? You're using the skulk as if it's the only thing that the aliens have. Lerks have spores, which are quite effective at "softening up" marines (IE: removing their armor). Fades have acid rockets, which are similarly effective at softening up marines.
I know I'm going to hear the "Acid rockets are useless, they do so little damage". The problem again comes to the fact that you're just comparing numbers. You can't do that, you can't just say "Knife does [X] dmg, and skulk has [X] hp". It's not that simple, again, take a skulk (any skulk), and take a marine with nothing BUT a knife. Who's gonna live?? The skulk will.
<!--QuoteBegin-Forlorn+Mar 17 2004, 12:21 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Forlorn @ Mar 17 2004, 12:21 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> You don't have to slowly walk up to him, if you are good, smart, and know the game you can just bhop up to him and bite him in the little extra range you have, pull away so he can't hit you, rinse and repeat. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Once again we see the elitist standards by which you wish to balance the game. Bunnyhopping to beat a knife? Are you serious? Do have any idea what percentage of players actually know how to bhop? Suffice it to say that they aren't in the majority. And on top of that, you think people should have such an instinctive knowledge of the bite and knife ranges that they can pinpoint that little bit of extra range every time without taking a hit? Why do you insist on wanting to balance this game for the elite minority at the expense of everyone else?
Why do you insist on ignoring the fact that the knife is fine as it is? Why are you wearing some crucifix about not being an "elite player"? Have you ever actually tried to bite a knifing marine? For that matter, have you tried to knife a moving skulk? Shall we continue this pointless argument in rhetorical questions? <!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::skulk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='skulk.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::gorge::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/pudgy.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='pudgy.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin-[ev0l] Zues+Mar 17 2004, 04:06 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> ([ev0l] Zues @ Mar 17 2004, 04:06 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> [SNIP] I know I'm going to hear the "Acid rockets are useless, they do so little damage". The problem again comes to the fact that you're just comparing numbers. You can't do that, you can't just say "Knife does [X] dmg, and skulk has [X] hp". [b]It's not that simple, again, take a skulk (any skulk), and take a marine with nothing BUT a knife.[b] Who's gonna live?? The skulk will..... [/SNIP] <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Actually there's your problem right there. Exactly WHEN do you find marines which have only knives?
The problem is that marines can injure you enough to take you out at melee with a knife even before you get near him. That is why it is too meritable of a melee weapon.
If you're going to bring spores in....
They're not even half effective because medpacks and resupply effectively negate that. Not to mention it doesn't have any effect on HA.
BTW I know I really have no beef, but I'm supporting Zek on this one. ATM it is a really viable weapon. With current knockback that shakes your screen like there's no tomorrow, you will get slightly get disoriented and that's just enough time to get a 2nd slash in
Or am I missing in on something?
kent : Well, since skulks are expendable, I usually load up an LMG, shoot it a bit, then jump over or run around it, switch to knife and kill it.
<!--QuoteBegin-Zek+Mar 17 2004, 04:08 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Zek @ Mar 17 2004, 04:08 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Forlorn+Mar 17 2004, 12:21 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Forlorn @ Mar 17 2004, 12:21 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> You don't have to slowly walk up to him, if you are good, smart, and know the game you can just bhop up to him and bite him in the little extra range you have, pull away so he can't hit you, rinse and repeat. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Once again we see the elitist standards by which you wish to balance the game. Bunnyhopping to beat a knife? Are you serious? Do have any idea what percentage of players actually know how to bhop? Suffice it to say that they aren't in the majority. And on top of that, you think people should have such an instinctive knowledge of the bite and knife ranges that they can pinpoint that little bit of extra range every time without taking a hit? Why do you insist on wanting to balance this game for the elite minority at the expense of everyone else? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> God forbid we actually had to learn how to play the game
<i>Gasp!</i>
Oh do forgive me for being elitist... <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin-Zek+Mar 17 2004, 01:08 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Zek @ Mar 17 2004, 01:08 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Forlorn+Mar 17 2004, 12:21 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Forlorn @ Mar 17 2004, 12:21 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> You don't have to slowly walk up to him, if you are good, smart, and know the game you can just bhop up to him and bite him in the little extra range you have, pull away so he can't hit you, rinse and repeat. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Once again we see the elitist standards by which you wish to balance the game. Bunnyhopping to beat a knife? Are you serious? Do have any idea what percentage of players actually know how to bhop? Suffice it to say that they aren't in the majority. And on top of that, you think people should have such an instinctive knowledge of the bite and knife ranges that they can pinpoint that little bit of extra range every time without taking a hit? Why do you insist on wanting to balance this game for the elite minority at the expense of everyone else? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I tend to agree that balancing for the elite players is not a particularly great situation, however, I would like to ask the question of whom you wish to balance it for? With pub play skill levels vary all over, whilst in higher tier clan play they tend to plateau, and that is where strats come in. Of course, one clanner can be better'n another, but thats not to say that clanners on the whole are a more 'skill equal' group.
If you even took junior high school science you would know that in an experiment, or in this case, a game, you must test by keeping everything else as consistent as possible, and only change one variable at a time. Clan play is the only mode that really offers something similar to that.
<!--QuoteBegin-Wasian+Mar 17 2004, 03:58 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Wasian @ Mar 17 2004, 03:58 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> You guys are missing the main point. The point is that marines ARE NOT supposed to have a viable melee weapon. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Um. Shotgun?? ALready got a pretty strong melee weapon
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The point is that marines ARE NOT supposed to have a viable melee weapon.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ok, where is the proof for this statement? Please, I entreat you to provide some sort of declaration from the developers stating that the marines are supposed to have a worthless melee weapon, or is this just another pretense formed in an attempt to substantiate whatever claim you're trying to make.
Again, stop comparing knife to parasite. First off, we shall apply the knife-hater logic to this. The secondary weapon, parasite, does 10 damage, that's as much as the marine's primary weapon, the LMG. Obviously, as the parasite matches the LMG in damage, it is overpowered and should be nerfed.
Also, saying it is unfair that a marine can shoot you up until it only takes one knife hit to kill you...this is ridiculous and instead you should be crediting this failure to the marine's aim or your own lack of skill. This would be like arguing turrets are too strong because they killed a fade who got shot 3 times with a shotgun before trying to blink away. The way I see it... a good skulk should be able to kill a marine far before the marine has enough time to empty both his guns and then pull out a shank.
At any rate, the knife is the weakest weapon of the marine arsenal, and does 1/2 the damage of the aliens' weakest melee attack (lerk bite), and the marine itself is slower than any alien besides the gorge(who couldn't fight itself out of a wet paper bag but that's another thread). How can you seriously regard the knife as overpowered when overcoming it is as easy as moving away. Again, an alien that gets knifed, chooses to get knifed, unless you're a poor abused gorgy... <!--emo&::gorge::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/pudgy.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='pudgy.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->At any rate, the knife is the weakest weapon of the marine arsenal, and does 1/2 the damage of the aliens' weakest melee attack (lerk bite), and the marine itself is slower than any alien besides the gorge(who couldn't fight itself out of a wet paper bag but that's another thread). How can you seriously regard the knife as overpowered when overcoming it is as easy as moving away. Again, an alien that gets knifed, chooses to get knifed, unless you're a poor abused gorgy... <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Really, this thing isnt an issue. I remember in one game, all the 'rines decided to run out of base with only knife slashing (ns_caged, towards sewer, if you must know). Im talking about 6-8 marines, slashing like idiots here. On reaching that room that splits to cent proc or sewer, we meet a few skulks. The marines were slaughtered. The end. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo--> If this doesnt prove that knife isnt overpowered, I dont know what would make you guys get it.
btw: I got shots of us before leaving base if you want proof. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin-Forlorn+Mar 17 2004, 05:19 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Forlorn @ Mar 17 2004, 05:19 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> God forbid we actually had to learn how to play the game
<i>Gasp!</i>
Oh do forgive me for being elitist... <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Know how to play? You just admitted that the only way to counter a knife is to not only be skilled at bunnyhopping, an advanced tactic that is not explained ingame in any way, but also to have such mastery of bite's range that you can kill a marine without once entering the knife's reach. Even you can't pull this off as well as you describe. You're simply exaggerating to make your knife countering strategy seem plausible.
We've been over this god knows how many times. Refusing to show even a small amount of regard for the lower 95% of the playerbase and balancing for the other 5% is an elitist way of doing things. It's the fastest way to kill any online game; NS would die without its pub community, and if the game is balanced in such a way that it alienates them then that's the end of the road. The knife certainly isn't an incredibly huge balance problem, but this attitude you take towards the lowly and inferior pub players on absolutely every debate in this forum is extremely aggrivating.
<!--QuoteBegin-Zek+Mar 17 2004, 09:43 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Zek @ Mar 17 2004, 09:43 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Forlorn+Mar 17 2004, 05:19 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Forlorn @ Mar 17 2004, 05:19 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> God forbid we actually had to learn how to play the game
<i>Gasp!</i>
Oh do forgive me for being elitist... <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Know how to play? You just admitted that the only way to counter a knife is to not only be skilled at bunnyhopping, an advanced tactic that is not explained ingame in any way, but also to have such mastery of bite's range that you can kill a marine without once entering the knife's reach. Even you can't pull this off as well as you describe. You're simply exaggerating to make your knife countering strategy seem plausible.
We've been over this god knows how many times. Refusing to show even a small amount of regard for the lower 95% of the playerbase and balancing for the other 5% is an elitist way of doing things. It's the fastest way to kill any online game; NS would die without its pub community, and if the game is balanced in such a way that it alienates them then that's the end of the road. The knife certainly isn't an incredibly huge balance problem, but this attitude you take towards the lowly and inferior pub players on absolutely every debate in this forum is extremely aggrivating. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Who says you need to bhop?
I'm just saying it's so easy to take advantage of the extra distance between the bite range and knife range that even when flying at a million miles per hour, you can hit them first.
its not meant to be any more, or any less then what it acutally is...a LAST RESORT.
its like having 5 threads discussing "welders" because "some" people(a minority.i.e. those l337!!111 players) can actually use it to kill a few skulks.
gameplay-wise, its fine as it is. So please, no more light sabers, katanas etc.....
Its meant to be a LAST RESORT 4MM KNIFE, and thats exactly what it is!
Comments
Pump some rounds into a skulk, then take out your knife and crouch, walking towards him while swinging. Its not hard at all.
EDIT:: I'm actually in favor of removing the knife completly. Maybe the marines could get a secondary attack on all weapons for rifle butt or what not, this way we could add yet another weapon to the game in place of the knife. Theres no reason why we cant have a "secondary fire" weapon just because your right mouse is taken, just use a seperate key.
Lets turn this around, lets say the marines couldn't shoot until the aliens reached melee range... and then had to evade the aliens for several seconds before they were allowed to start shooting, you may consider this a ludicrous situation... but this is generally the sort of thing an alien has to do. You'd want the weapon to be powerful enough to compensate for the effort and skill it took to live long enough. Now what if the aliens were also given a weapon that, when you take the amount of HP into account, can kill you 60% as well as you could kill with your new weapon, you'd think it was bloody stupid, and rightfully so.
You can't really argue the 'range' point, I don't know a single person who kills a marines by staying just out of knife range constantly and biting them from there, the range difference doesn't change that much. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Had you read meep's post above yours you'd realize that if both the skulk and the marine are equal in skill the skulk will win every time <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The fact is a good skulk has every advantage to take over a knife, if he loses to one it's his own fault.
Just time when you attack, as you are faster, and the knife will never kill you.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Is this how you justify a 'skulk winning every time'? I've said it before, but there's no difference between timing a bite and timing a knife slash. Furthermore, the knife slash is easier to follow up because of the disorienting knockback.
You're faster? As soon as I hit the fire button, I do damage. It doesn't take time to 'wind up' my knife attack. So what are you faster then? Light? I don't have to move, not at all. I can just crouch there, since the skulk has to come within knife range to hit me anyway. Let's see the skulk run circles around my 90 sensitivity.
Wrong, bite has more range than knife
Try again
Wrong, bite has more range than knife
Try again <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
So, what, I'm going to slowly use-walk towards a marine knifing so I can nip him out the range? You have any proof or is this just more of your usual talking-out-your-****?
EEK, before flaming, have you actually tried it ?
The problem right now with the knife is that it is too meritable of a melee-ranged weapon. While Forlorn's argument still stands, I don't believe a skulk should lose to a knife, because it's a general rule that aliens get more of the melee advantage.
Seing that the knife has a <i>slightly</i> faster RoF (by a few milliseconds), and it's hard to time when to bite at minimum range, you can see why they're complaining. A marine that has below decent aim that manages to get a couple of hits on a skulk can pretty much take out a skulk at close range, which isn't supposed to be the case.
I remember back then when you were against suggestion of having better melee weapons or having knife damage befed up Forlorn, but I remember that you always said that marines die at melee range. This isn't true anymore due to the fact that :
- Skulk hitboxes are still easy, or should I say, much easier to hit at melee range because of the new hitboxes
- Decreased HP and armor of the skulk
- Skulks usually don't have much health left by the time he reaches the marine unless the marine can't even hit the broad side of a nuclear plant at pointblank.
I myself have no beef with the knife unless I'm a Gorge but that's a different issue all together <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
In short, what I'm saying is that skulks don't even get enough health left to survive at least 2 slices if the marine's aim is decent. Even if you do manage to get in range, just <b>1</b> slice from the knife, you get the shakey screen, and then it's all over.
Good luck, you'll need it.
Wrong, bite has more range than knife
Try again <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So, what, I'm going to slowly use-walk towards a marine knifing so I can nip him out the range? You have any proof or is this just more of your usual talking-out-your-****? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
You don't have to slowly walk up to him, if you are good, smart, and know the game you can just bhop up to him and bite him in the little extra range you have, pull away so he can't hit you, rinse and repeat.
The only way to kill a good skulk with a knife is to CHARGE the skulk with a marine, which just goes to show you what a disadvantage it puts you at.
Why don't you learn how to play the game before complaining it's unfair?
Seems to me you best argument is "OMG, I CAN'T BEAT IT... NERF. NOW"
Also, I just realized something... you play with 90 sensitivity? Perhaps this is why you use the knife so much?
Using this login, then marine's shouldnt die to Acid rockets or lerk spores. But I would maintain that in all those cases (knife, AR, spores) the dieing party isnt killed by any of them, they're killed by a more primary weapon (LMG in the case of the knife, maybe skulks biting them in the case of AR/Spores), and the knife/AR/Spores are just the cleanup.
I did some testing last nite for the fun of it. And the range difference on the knife vs bite is pretty significant. The knife also needs to be aimed properly where-as the skulk bite pretty much doesn't. Standing and looking straight out, you cant hit a skulk on the ground with your knife. You have to either crouch down or aim down to hit him.
Man.. I still cant believe we're arguing over this...
Honestly, the knife should be considered a utility tool, not a weapon. It's primary purpose should be to destroy buildings. I'm in favor of the 15 blast damage for the knife, allowing the most meager amount of hope for a knife kill.
Or up the parasite damage to 30. That would make it equal. Marines are supposed to be horrible at melee yet they have a powerful knife that does 30 damage a hit. The skulk is supposed to be horrible at ranged (and he is), but to be fair we should give it a 30 damage ranged attack. Equivalent trade (sorta).
And are you just ignoring what zek is saying? The point he's making is that skulk bite IS stronger than the knife. He's not arguing that the knife is a really strong weapon. He's arguing that based on what it should be it is too strong. I agree that a good skulk should not get knifed in 1v1 combat, but it happens. But the knife shouldn't even be considered a weapon in combat, if you run out of bullets and the skulk is still alive you should have a 5-10% chance of living. Currently, you have a much higher chance of getting a lucky/skillful hit on a skulk and killing him with a weapon you shouldn't even be using.
Until I see as many parasite kills per game as I see knife kills I'll argue that the marines should not have a combat melee weapon.
Honestly, the knife should be considered a utility tool, not a weapon. It's primary purpose should be to destroy buildings. I'm in favor of the 15 blast damage for the knife, allowing the most meager amount of hope for a knife kill.
Or up the parasite damage to 30. That would make it equal. Marines are supposed to be horrible at melee yet they have a powerful knife that does 30 damage a hit. The skulk is supposed to be horrible at ranged (and he is), but to be fair we should give it a 30 damage ranged attack. Equivalent trade (sorta).
And are you just ignoring what zek is saying? The point he's making is that skulk bite IS stronger than the knife. He's not arguing that the knife is a really strong weapon. He's arguing that based on what it should be it is too strong. I agree that a good skulk should not get knifed in 1v1 combat, but it happens. But the knife shouldn't even be considered a weapon in combat, if you run out of bullets and the skulk is still alive you should have a 5-10% chance of living. Currently, you have a much higher chance of getting a lucky/skillful hit on a skulk and killing him with a weapon you shouldn't even be using.
Until I see as many parasite kills per game as I see knife kills I'll argue that the marines should not have a combat melee weapon. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Then why let aliens have ranged attacks??? You're using the skulk as if it's the only thing that the aliens have. Lerks have spores, which are quite effective at "softening up" marines (IE: removing their armor). Fades have acid rockets, which are similarly effective at softening up marines.
I know I'm going to hear the "Acid rockets are useless, they do so little damage". The problem again comes to the fact that you're just comparing numbers. You can't do that, you can't just say "Knife does [X] dmg, and skulk has [X] hp". It's not that simple, again, take a skulk (any skulk), and take a marine with nothing BUT a knife. Who's gonna live?? The skulk will.
Man, this is such a non-issue....
Once again we see the elitist standards by which you wish to balance the game. Bunnyhopping to beat a knife? Are you serious? Do have any idea what percentage of players actually know how to bhop? Suffice it to say that they aren't in the majority. And on top of that, you think people should have such an instinctive knowledge of the bite and knife ranges that they can pinpoint that little bit of extra range every time without taking a hit? Why do you insist on wanting to balance this game for the elite minority at the expense of everyone else?
I know I'm going to hear the "Acid rockets are useless, they do so little damage". The problem again comes to the fact that you're just comparing numbers. You can't do that, you can't just say "Knife does [X] dmg, and skulk has [X] hp". [b]It's not that simple, again, take a skulk (any skulk), and take a marine with nothing BUT a knife.[b] Who's gonna live?? The skulk will.....
[/SNIP]
<!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Actually there's your problem right there. Exactly WHEN do you find marines which have only knives?
The problem is that marines can injure you enough to take you out at melee with a knife even before you get near him. That is why it is too meritable of a melee weapon.
If you're going to bring spores in....
They're not even half effective because medpacks and resupply effectively negate that. Not to mention it doesn't have any effect on HA.
BTW I know I really have no beef, but I'm supporting Zek on this one. ATM it is a really viable weapon. With current knockback that shakes your screen like there's no tomorrow, you will get slightly get disoriented and that's just enough time to get a 2nd slash in
Or am I missing in on something?
kent : Well, since skulks are expendable, I usually load up an LMG, shoot it a bit, then jump over or run around it, switch to knife and kill it.
Once again we see the elitist standards by which you wish to balance the game. Bunnyhopping to beat a knife? Are you serious? Do have any idea what percentage of players actually know how to bhop? Suffice it to say that they aren't in the majority. And on top of that, you think people should have such an instinctive knowledge of the bite and knife ranges that they can pinpoint that little bit of extra range every time without taking a hit? Why do you insist on wanting to balance this game for the elite minority at the expense of everyone else? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
God forbid we actually had to learn how to play the game
<i>Gasp!</i>
Oh do forgive me for being elitist... <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Once again we see the elitist standards by which you wish to balance the game. Bunnyhopping to beat a knife? Are you serious? Do have any idea what percentage of players actually know how to bhop? Suffice it to say that they aren't in the majority. And on top of that, you think people should have such an instinctive knowledge of the bite and knife ranges that they can pinpoint that little bit of extra range every time without taking a hit? Why do you insist on wanting to balance this game for the elite minority at the expense of everyone else? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I tend to agree that balancing for the elite players is not a particularly great situation, however, I would like to ask the question of whom you wish to balance it for? With pub play skill levels vary all over, whilst in higher tier clan play they tend to plateau, and that is where strats come in. Of course, one clanner can be better'n another, but thats not to say that clanners on the whole are a more 'skill equal' group.
If you even took junior high school science you would know that in an experiment, or in this case, a game, you must test by keeping everything else as consistent as possible, and only change one variable at a time. Clan play is the only mode that really offers something similar to that.
Um. Shotgun?? ALready got a pretty strong melee weapon
Ok, where is the proof for this statement? Please, I entreat you to provide some sort of declaration from the developers stating that the marines are supposed to have a worthless melee weapon, or is this just another pretense formed in an attempt to substantiate whatever claim you're trying to make.
Again, stop comparing knife to parasite. First off, we shall apply the knife-hater logic to this. The secondary weapon, parasite, does 10 damage, that's as much as the marine's primary weapon, the LMG. Obviously, as the parasite matches the LMG in damage, it is overpowered and should be nerfed.
Also, saying it is unfair that a marine can shoot you up until it only takes one knife hit to kill you...this is ridiculous and instead you should be crediting this failure to the marine's aim or your own lack of skill. This would be like arguing turrets are too strong because they killed a fade who got shot 3 times with a shotgun before trying to blink away. The way I see it... a good skulk should be able to kill a marine far before the marine has enough time to empty both his guns and then pull out a shank.
At any rate, the knife is the weakest weapon of the marine arsenal, and does 1/2 the damage of the aliens' weakest melee attack (lerk bite), and the marine itself is slower than any alien besides the gorge(who couldn't fight itself out of a wet paper bag but that's another thread). How can you seriously regard the knife as overpowered when overcoming it is as easy as moving away. Again, an alien that gets knifed, chooses to get knifed, unless you're a poor abused gorgy... <!--emo&::gorge::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/pudgy.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='pudgy.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Leave knife damage alone (so they can kill structures)
But reduce the <b>range</b> of the knife to make it nigh impossible to land a hit on a skulk.
Yay! <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Leave knife damage alone (so they can kill structures)
But reduce the <b>range</b> of the knife to make it nigh impossible to land a hit on a skulk.
Yay! <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's already like that?
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->At any rate, the knife is the weakest weapon of the marine arsenal, and does 1/2 the damage of the aliens' weakest melee attack (lerk bite), and the marine itself is slower than any alien besides the gorge(who couldn't fight itself out of a wet paper bag but that's another thread). How can you seriously regard the knife as overpowered when overcoming it is as easy as moving away. Again, an alien that gets knifed, chooses to get knifed, unless you're a poor abused gorgy... <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Gorge's can bhop away from marines
btw: I got shots of us before leaving base if you want proof. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<i>Gasp!</i>
Oh do forgive me for being elitist... <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Know how to play? You just admitted that the only way to counter a knife is to not only be skilled at bunnyhopping, an advanced tactic that is not explained ingame in any way, but also to have such mastery of bite's range that you can kill a marine without once entering the knife's reach. Even you can't pull this off as well as you describe. You're simply exaggerating to make your knife countering strategy seem plausible.
We've been over this god knows how many times. Refusing to show even a small amount of regard for the lower 95% of the playerbase and balancing for the other 5% is an elitist way of doing things. It's the fastest way to kill any online game; NS would die without its pub community, and if the game is balanced in such a way that it alienates them then that's the end of the road. The knife certainly isn't an incredibly huge balance problem, but this attitude you take towards the lowly and inferior pub players on absolutely every debate in this forum is extremely aggrivating.
Toe to toe, skulk vs marine with knife, the skulk will win 9 times out of 10.
And let's face it, if the marine is able to shoot you down to the point where one knife slash will kill you, he's just playing with you.
<i>Gasp!</i>
Oh do forgive me for being elitist... <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Know how to play? You just admitted that the only way to counter a knife is to not only be skilled at bunnyhopping, an advanced tactic that is not explained ingame in any way, but also to have such mastery of bite's range that you can kill a marine without once entering the knife's reach. Even you can't pull this off as well as you describe. You're simply exaggerating to make your knife countering strategy seem plausible.
We've been over this god knows how many times. Refusing to show even a small amount of regard for the lower 95% of the playerbase and balancing for the other 5% is an elitist way of doing things. It's the fastest way to kill any online game; NS would die without its pub community, and if the game is balanced in such a way that it alienates them then that's the end of the road. The knife certainly isn't an incredibly huge balance problem, but this attitude you take towards the lowly and inferior pub players on absolutely every debate in this forum is extremely aggrivating. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Who says you need to bhop?
I'm just saying it's so easy to take advantage of the extra distance between the bite range and knife range that even when flying at a million miles per hour, you can hit them first.
its not meant to be any more, or any less then what it acutally is...a LAST RESORT.
its like having 5 threads discussing "welders" because "some" people(a minority.i.e. those l337!!111 players) can actually use it to kill a few skulks.
gameplay-wise, its fine as it is. So please, no more light sabers, katanas etc.....
Its meant to be a LAST RESORT 4MM KNIFE, and thats exactly what it is!