<!--QuoteBegin-OG17+Mar 29 2004, 02:02 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (OG17 @ Mar 29 2004, 02:02 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> a skulk should not need to show extraordinary skill in order to land a bite while staying out of knife range. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> The skulk doesn't need extraordinary skill, just average skill.
<!--QuoteBegin-OG17+Mar 29 2004, 02:46 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (OG17 @ Mar 29 2004, 02:46 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> The difference in range is not nearly great enough for that to be true. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> If you are laggin hard then maybe it's really tough, otherwise go try it and you will be pleasently surprised
I personnally feel that knife=defensive last resort. How is a marine going to catch up to a skulk to knife it unless he has a 15 res jp?
On the issue of shotguns, the TSA has to fight off aliens that like to pop out of dark places really close, so good shotguns would be a high priority to them. So, what this huge knife is overpowered repetition of the facts, going in circles, etc. is involving a lot of non-specific details, i.e this one skilled clanner, or this one marine.
A thing to consider is how a slow moving marine can even be classified a CQC specialist when he has no way to move fast along the ground and needs a building to cross large distances quickly as a team. (since equipping a whole team with jp would be rather expensive when the teams got big)
I do agree that knife is overpowered in <i>some</i> instances, but this always seems to boil down to not being prepared for it, just plain unskilled, or so-and-so owned 2 noobs in a row.
Point is: Trying to compensate for unskilled players should not rest with the game developers, because if the skill was always perfectly balanced I would say ns is pretty close to achieving that sort of balance and it would be much easier.
If the game developers make balance decisions based on skill, then it limits them to balancing the skill handicap of one side with another on the other teams side.
Comparing parasite that can be shot at a marine from any distance, with perfect accuracy (hits center of crosshair) from an alien that can walk on walls, is faster than a marine, and can cloak to a marine that is slow, a bigger target, and usually <i>with buddies</i> (See this teamwork pattern here?) and knife doesn't make the alien hit with it glow yellow on a marines hud.
I also feel that it is a bad direction to go by nerfing things continually and then nerfing something else that is a little to powerful is a bad cycle. If it was possible to do it, I would try and balance by <i>increasing</i> somethings power.
When nerfing makes abilities no longer any fun, it is <b><i>bad</i></b>. I am, however, unable to guess at what exactly the dev team is thinking when they do something: What everyone groans at as a nerf, it is always a balance change, but you hear more groaning about balancing when it removes fun. Would a marine have any fun trying to knife skulks with a 10dmg/hit knife? I wouldn't; as it is I need to get lucky to get a knife kill on a skulk.
<!--QuoteBegin-Forlorn+Mar 29 2004, 04:12 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Forlorn @ Mar 29 2004, 04:12 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-OG17+Mar 29 2004, 02:46 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (OG17 @ Mar 29 2004, 02:46 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> The difference in range is not nearly great enough for that to be true. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> If you are laggin hard then maybe it's really tough, otherwise go try it and you will be pleasently surprised<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Okay, done. No screenshots because I can't perform the simplest of tasks without screwing up, but I'd estimate the difference to be between one and a half and two game feet (gogo arbitrariness!). However, skulk's eyes are well behind his snout, so head-on, that distance is largely negated by the skulk's "misplaced" body. And the skulk needs to be head-on to hit.
Forlorn, your only argument through this entire thread is "If you aren't a newbie it's easy not to get knifed." Not only does that fail to list one good reason that knives SHOULD be as effective as they are now against aliens, but it really isn't true at all, and this is coming from experience rather than arbitrary scrim-logic. When a skulk is down to below 60 HP and the marine is still full, it is not difficult to finish them with a knife. We're not talking about arranged knife/skulk duels here, this is a marine popping out a knife unexpectedly while the skulk charges in expecting to have the advantage in melee range. Getting that first knife hit just by virtue of surprise is easy; knife and bite have virtually the same range, and a good marine(who actually practices with the knife rather than just assuming they're weak like many of the posters here) has little difficulty getting at least one hit in. The disorientation effect from this(please find one place where this is listed as a bug) forces the skulk to back off, assuming he wasn't killed. Then he can try to use the tactics you described; however, this skulk only needs one more knife hit to be killed, and since knife range <u>is almost just as long as bite range</u>, it is VERY risky to make another attempt.
It shouldn't be risky. Marines aren't supposed to be effective at melee at all. Only a skulk that is seriously crippled from prior damage should feel threatened by a knife; getting a knife kill should be extremely lucky on the part of the marine, not something they have a very good chance at if they know how to do it.
I've tried this quite a bit since this thread started and it is just as easy as we're saying. And before you say it, please don't tell me that these skulks were noobs. I know the majority of these skulks, I've played with them for quite a while and they're good players. There is no way in hell that they're not skilled enough to have the right to beat a marine in melee, and yet here they are dying to a knife on a relatively regular basis if I put the effort into it. Why is it that you insist that such basic balance concepts like alien melee superiority should only belong to the top tier of players?
The knife actually snags kills once in awhile simply because it's a last resort weapon, that is SEVERLY LIMITED, not to the point of uselessness, but to where it can still kill stuff, even though it's weaker than everything else.
If it dealt 10 damage, it would <b>never kill jack crap!</b> Where's the sense in that?
Why don't YOU tell me one itty bitty worthless reason of why a knife should be worthless against skulks?
Because YOU don't think it fits in with the atmosphere?
Because YOU think it's misplaced?
Obviously, dispite the fact I can prove it to you it's not overpowered in any shape, way, or form, and that the fact that server stats show knifes getting very little kills (yet getting some, a couple hundred here and there), and dispite the fact that the knife takes a lot of skill to use, you continuely hurdle me with your oppinions that "Knife is stupid blah blah it doesn't fit in with the game! Skulks don't get backup weapons that match the knife blah blah change now!"
a.) It's not your game b.) Skulks don't need backup weapons, their primary weapons never run out of ammo!
If the knife was weakened anymore, it would be USELESS against lifeforms! There'd be no point to using it!
And ulitmate reason knives are in the game:
- Because Flay put them there. It's as simple as that dude, and I'm sure Flay put in the knife because he felt that the marine's should be jack of all trades and should have a weapont that is suited to a role, much like every other weapon. LMG = Jack of all trades, pistol = extra packet of damage suited for long range encounters, Shotgun = CQB firepower, HMG = Anti-Alien ownage, GL = Anti-Structure devestation in a can, and finally, look at the melee capabilities for the marines...
If you were a developer, and you see all the other weapons, and then you look at the melee capabilities, you would probably think along the lines of this:
"Well, I think they could use a melee weapon too, to conserve ammo and if they run out of ammo. I know people wouldn't have a lot of fun if they just ran out of ammo and were completely harmless only to die. I'm sure people have learned lessons from the early CS beta builds, as well as the fact that it may not always be possible to get ammo from your comm if he doesn't give you any. If such a weapon were to be put in, it wouldn't want it to be useless, but definatly not useful beyond the lesser lifeforms. Ah! I got it. I'll call it a "knife"! It will deal an obscure amount of damage, and be gimped in most ways imaginable, yet it will be fun for the marines to use as a last resort weapon as well as conserve ammo, and the knife would be almost 100% useless on larger lifeforms. Problem solved"
I'm sure if the devs saw anything wrong with their original viewpoint then it would have been adressed by now.
Q.E.D.
I'm outtta this thread before I go insane now thx bai
<!--QuoteBegin-Forlorn+Mar 29 2004, 08:54 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Forlorn @ Mar 29 2004, 08:54 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->If the knife was weakened anymore, it would be USELESS against lifeforms! There'd be no point to using it!<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> The first part is the point, and the second is wrong. Structures.
And marines are meant to be "Jacks of all trades?" They have completely undeniable ranged superiority, excellent structure-clearing/area attack tools, an amazing CQC weapon, the options of good mobility or strong armor that can be quickly repaired in the field, the ability to alter the map with welders, an overseer that can drop a wad of cash to make his troops nearly immortal, devices to passively see enemies anywhere on the map, an ability to have the entire force appear at base, warp points to make up for relatively slow foot speed, and to top it all off, a default melee weapon that does a good amount of damage, has a very competitive range, and even disorients its target. Look up "Jack of all trades." It means that you're decent at many things. As in sort of mediocre at all of them. Marines are amazingly versatile, and very good at all of it.
Or do you see some fundamental marine weakness somewhere that I'm missing? Because I certainly can't find anything comparable to "is strictly a melee-based team." And I don't think it's too much to ask that the marines be very weak at such distances, considering that they own the range game lock, stock, and cold steel barrel.
I don't mean to go off on a marine rant, and I somewhat regret it (I'm still posting the thing); it'd be simple to make a similar list of kharaa strengths (though I wouldn't say that they're anywhere close to being as versatile a team). But it's hardly as if the marines "should" have effective CQC options. Each side needs a role, and it's clear that the marines are ranged. If they're truly meant to be Jacks of all trades, then their ranged advantage better get knocked down to "decent" levels to match, because otherwise, they're just plain excellent all over.
And yeah, Flayra puts stuff in because he thinks it'll be good. This board is here so we can let him know when he's wrong.
you should stop playing aleans and play more reen games. I play half and half. and win 75% of the time on both sides. or maybe come onto a diffretn server than what you playing on.
How Often you win at alean OC17?
im curious and I mean this in a non flam way, with no insulting. If it comes across that way im sorry
So they have a knife out, and you have less than 30 damamage. the bite has a farther range than the knife. second if he has his knife out hes outa ammo, just pull back a little and parasight kill him. or...wait till he begins to pull his gun out then kill him.sure I still get knife. but ive accepted it as part of the game.
ontime i had a knife kill match with a friend. in Co. I got 4 knife kills, he got 6. then they got big creatures and it was over basicly. In all honesty it takes less than an hour to learn how to knife kill a skulk, and at the same time, learn how to avoid getting knifed.
what triggered this? I was playing on my normal server and a vet killed me 3 times in a row with a knife...So I decided to try and figure out how to do that as well. so I practices, and during so, I played against some skulks who knew how to kill knifers.
So I copied thier tactic. I realy dont understand how someone cannot learn how to stop 75% of the knifing.
So you're saying that marines should basically have no chance in CQC? MOST OF THE DAMN GAME IS CQC! The knife is effectively only useful against a skulk, one of which can kill an unarmored marine in 2 bites with ease. You may argue that it would also be good to kill a gorge with it, but the reason it would be easy that was because: 1. You run faster than the gorge. 2. The gorge doesn't have a powerful enough attack to keep the marine at bay from knifing you.
Should I even begin on the fact that a gorge focus spit does the same damage as a normal skulk bite? Wouldn't this mean that gorges are actually the masters of ranged combat soley based on damage?
Just because one thing on either team is better than the other (and this thing wasn't really meant for the team, supposedly in this case, the knife), doesn't mean you have to nerf it because it is mediocre at best.
<!--QuoteBegin-Drakken+Mar 30 2004, 12:07 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Drakken @ Mar 30 2004, 12:07 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Should I even begin on the fact that a gorge focus spit does the same damage as a normal skulk bite? Wouldn't this mean that gorges are actually the masters of ranged combat soley based on damage?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Spit is 25 damage base, not 37.5, and fires very slowly with focus. But yes, I gorges would have to be the kharaa ranged combat masters by default, though a case could be possibly be made for parasite due to the skulk's far better mobility. But obviously enough, marine weapons are hitscan and fire far faster, doing more damage that's more likely to hit in less time, so it's insane to even place spit in the same category. So yeah, this is a good comparison. And the knife isn't only useful against a skulk; it's useful against anything with a few slashes' worth of life, and the disorientation (which I've barely touched) is useful against anything.
If marines required shotguns to survive at close range (and combat was largely close-medium range, which I'll give you), LMGs would rarely kill anything, right? But they seem to manage well enough, and you don't see teams hiding in base until enough res trickle in to buy the life-giving shotguns. Hell, the thing was barely used in 1.04, with faster and tougher skulks, and no one even missed it. This is largely a luxury, and a very exorbitant one at that. One could say that it's needed against fades, but fades themselves are also rather messed up at the moment, so I'm not even taking them into account (I really don't want to get into that here, so either take my word on it or skip over it altogether).
Gecko, would you stop with the bloody parasiting? In the time it takes to empty and recharge the several energy bars it'd take to kill the guy (granted, that's variable), another marine is almost certain to show up. If one doesn't, you're dealing with a rambo who probably wouldn't ever knife you in the first place. Parasite is an option, sure, but it's not going to be a terribly practical one, and certainly not a reliable one. And Combat just destroys it completely. Also, if you weren't aware, reloads are all interuptable, so that's hardly a sign that you can safely charge in.
<!--QuoteBegin-Forlorn+Mar 29 2004, 06:25 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Forlorn @ Mar 29 2004, 06:25 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Knifing with speed hack/aimbot was a common humiliation tactic in 1.04. Maybe some clanners are picking it up again?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Clanners love to hack and cheat, right on big boy<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Way to distort what I said, genius. Some clanners != all clanners. But then I'd expect you to be defensive seeing that you're in #cri.
I'm here wondering... Why? Why reduce the effectiveness of the knife? Does it create an inbalance? I'd say no to this and I'm certain most people will as well. Would reducing the damage it causes create an inbalance? Probably not, since the knife is hardly used except for killing structures... But then you do something Savant says happened to the aliens, you remove a fun factor from the marines.
So... Does it really matter or are people just campaigning because they want to reduce the humiliation of being knifed every once in a while? If that's the case get over it.
The knife is not a primary weapon... It isn't even a secondary weapon... It is a last resort weapon. If someone becomes quite good with the knife congratulate them, for they have achieved something that is not as easy as some claim.
<!--QuoteBegin-Sizer+Mar 30 2004, 02:54 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Sizer @ Mar 30 2004, 02:54 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Forlorn+Mar 29 2004, 06:25 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Forlorn @ Mar 29 2004, 06:25 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Knifing with speed hack/aimbot was a common humiliation tactic in 1.04. Maybe some clanners are picking it up again?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Clanners love to hack and cheat, right on big boy<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Way to distort what I said, genius. Some clanners != all clanners. But then I'd expect you to be defensive seeing that you're in #cri. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> OLOL #CRI H$X
right well I didn't read but the first 3 pages and the last one, but a thing popped into my mind: If knife is such a competitive weapon compared to bite, why haven't I met a person who could win me with the knife alone? I mean yeah, I die sometimes to a knife, but has the other guy used other weapons first? I can just bite the armor lvl x marine y times and then parasite him to death, but that's not a good enough reason to remove para or make it 1 dmg is it? Thing like that is just like a knife kill. I just say "lol" like i did today in a match after someone parasited me after a bite or two. Some of you people say like "omgomg that knife is so stupid, it challenges skulks bite" but when you really think about it, knife really is useless if you use it in "normal" situations (like if u see a skulk at the other end of the hallway, I doubt u will just rush it with knife in your hand). And to these "special" situations. Someone mentioned killing around 3 skulks with a knife in one bunch. Right. So what is there so special about that? If you could do it like 5 times every day, I would admit there is a problem, but I think you haven't done it that many times. Just because you get lucky once doesn't mean something is screwed. I've killed 7 marines with a skulk in ns_bast in version 1.04. Does that make bite overpowerful? No. Pure luck. It's just impossible to reduce a weapons luck modifier, no matter what you nerfed... And to the person who said knifes should be nerfed so that the "humiliating deaths would be reduced". Lol? if knife did like 10 dmg and someone would die to that, wouldn't that be at least 3 times as humiliating? hmm well i doubt i will never remember to return to this topic, but sure, flame me all the way to hell...
<!--QuoteBegin-Tuplis+Apr 2 2004, 06:59 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Tuplis @ Apr 2 2004, 06:59 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> right well I didn't read but the first 3 pages and the last one, but a thing popped into my mind: If knife is such a competitive weapon compared to bite, why haven't I met a person who could win me with the knife alone? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Beacuse:
1) It's easier to kill things before they get a CHANCE to kill you.
2) Most marines just hold down fire and 'swingswingswing' like a four year old playing minigolf, instead of swinging when they SHOULD.
ok... honestly... is it THAT hard to bite a marine swinging his knife at u without being hit? if u answer yes theres probably something wrong with u, its not like its a traditionally crafted katana capable of slicing trees down or anything. moral of the story... if u cant kill a marine with a knife ur an idiot. ive killed many marines while my hp was low enough to take a knife and im consider myself quite a clown.. so dont know whats wrong with u <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
I don't think it's wrong that a skulk dies when I shove a knife through him. Sure, your view animation shows slashing, but the playermodel thrusts.
I also don't see what humiliation there is in killing with a knife. Skulks kill in melee all the time. If someone dies to a knife it's because they were below 30hits. If you slashed it a couple of times before it died, it was just unlucky.
It really annoys me that the guy that kills the onos with a knife is the one that gets the credits. What about the other 5-6 guys shooting all their ammo at it? <!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::marine::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/marine.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='marine.gif' /><!--endemo-->
well considering onos heal at a rate thats damn near twice the amount of damage the knife deals out per hit, its pretty unlikely to kill an onos with a knife!
<!--QuoteBegin-Trevelyan+Apr 10 2004, 09:58 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Trevelyan @ Apr 10 2004, 09:58 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> well considering onos heal at a rate thats damn near twice the amount of damage the knife deals out per hit, its pretty unlikely to kill an onos with a knife! <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> It happens all the time <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Mmmkay. I decided to try out the knife only approach yesterday while playing, and I came out with a 1k:1d ratio by the time I stopped knifing. 7 skulks were knifed, at least half of those from full health. I used no other weapon.
and people say the knife isn't powerful? I'm admittedly not even that great as a marine, yet if I'm perfectly able to knife several skulks and maintain a normal K:D ratio by using the knife in an intelligent manner (and not swinging madly like a moron lacking depth perception playing minigolf), then something must be wrong. These players I was knifing weren't crappy either, as I know someone will say as such. I wish I got some screenshots or something, but for some reason my screenshot key refuses to work (and has done for a while, now that I think about it)
I think I'll finally comment on a forum topic. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo-->
The knife damage should be reduced because marines are SUPPOSED to move in groups. This isn't a 1 on 1 deathmatch game. It's team oriented...c'mon people. The knife is a lightsaber. You can argue about 1 on 1, but the truth is, being 1 on 1 against a skulk SHOULD be a rare occasion. And if you cannot kill it with 50 lmg/10 pistol, you really DO deserve to perish. =\
why would the knife damage have to be reduced because marines move in groups?...
I mean I understand what your saying, that since they are in groups they can take everything out,...
but from my understanding the whole idea of the knife and it's high damage was for marines to be able to take out structures like res towers without having to worry about ammo...
if you get knifed oh well, really people come on, it's not a super duper kill all weapon...
Most knife kills occur while marines are moving in groups. Especially with the higher evolutions. Knife is fine and people need to stop thinking of it as a bad way to die.
Comments
The skulk doesn't need extraordinary skill, just average skill.
If you are laggin hard then maybe it's really tough, otherwise go try it and you will be pleasently surprised
How is a marine going to catch up to a skulk to knife it unless he has a 15 res jp?
On the issue of shotguns, the TSA has to fight off aliens that like to pop out of dark places really close, so good shotguns would be a high priority to them.
So, what this huge knife is overpowered repetition of the facts, going in circles, etc. is involving a lot of non-specific details, i.e this one skilled clanner, or this one marine.
A thing to consider is how a slow moving marine can even be classified a CQC specialist when he has no way to move fast along the ground and needs a building to cross large distances quickly as a team. (since equipping a whole team with jp would be rather expensive when the teams got big)
I do agree that knife is overpowered in <i>some</i> instances, but this always seems to boil down to not being prepared for it, just plain unskilled, or so-and-so owned 2 noobs in a row.
Point is: Trying to compensate for unskilled players should not rest with the game developers, because if the skill was always perfectly balanced I would say ns is pretty close to achieving that sort of balance and it would be much easier.
If the game developers make balance decisions based on skill, then it limits them to balancing the skill handicap of one side with another on the other teams side.
Comparing parasite that can be shot at a marine from any distance, with perfect accuracy (hits center of crosshair) from an alien that can walk on walls, is faster than a marine, and can cloak to a marine that is slow, a bigger target, and usually <i>with buddies</i> (See this teamwork pattern here?) and knife doesn't make the alien hit with it glow yellow on a marines hud.
I also feel that it is a bad direction to go by nerfing things continually and then nerfing something else that is a little to powerful is a bad cycle. If it was possible to do it, I would try and balance by <i>increasing</i> somethings power.
When nerfing makes abilities no longer any fun, it is <b><i>bad</i></b>. I am, however, unable to guess at what exactly the dev team is thinking when they do something: What everyone groans at as a nerf, it is always a balance change, but you hear more groaning about balancing when it removes fun. Would a marine have any fun trying to knife skulks with a 10dmg/hit knife? I wouldn't; as it is I need to get lucky to get a knife kill on a skulk.
Wow this is longer than I thought it would be.
If you are laggin hard then maybe it's really tough, otherwise go try it and you will be pleasently surprised<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Okay, done. No screenshots because I can't perform the simplest of tasks without screwing up, but I'd estimate the difference to be between one and a half and two game feet (gogo arbitrariness!). However, skulk's eyes are well behind his snout, so head-on, that distance is largely negated by the skulk's "misplaced" body. And the skulk needs to be head-on to hit.
It shouldn't be risky. Marines aren't supposed to be effective at melee at all. Only a skulk that is seriously crippled from prior damage should feel threatened by a knife; getting a knife kill should be extremely lucky on the part of the marine, not something they have a very good chance at if they know how to do it.
I've tried this quite a bit since this thread started and it is just as easy as we're saying. And before you say it, please don't tell me that these skulks were noobs. I know the majority of these skulks, I've played with them for quite a while and they're good players. There is no way in hell that they're not skilled enough to have the right to beat a marine in melee, and yet here they are dying to a knife on a relatively regular basis if I put the effort into it. Why is it that you insist that such basic balance concepts like alien melee superiority should only belong to the top tier of players?
The knife actually snags kills once in awhile simply because it's a last resort weapon, that is SEVERLY LIMITED, not to the point of uselessness, but to where it can still kill stuff, even though it's weaker than everything else.
If it dealt 10 damage, it would <b>never kill jack crap!</b> Where's the sense in that?
Why don't YOU tell me one itty bitty worthless reason of why a knife should be worthless against skulks?
Because YOU don't think it fits in with the atmosphere?
Because YOU think it's misplaced?
Obviously, dispite the fact I can prove it to you it's not overpowered in any shape, way, or form, and that the fact that server stats show knifes getting very little kills (yet getting some, a couple hundred here and there), and dispite the fact that the knife takes a lot of skill to use, you continuely hurdle me with your oppinions that "Knife is stupid blah blah it doesn't fit in with the game! Skulks don't get backup weapons that match the knife blah blah change now!"
a.) It's not your game
b.) Skulks don't need backup weapons, their primary weapons never run out of ammo!
If the knife was weakened anymore, it would be USELESS against lifeforms! There'd be no point to using it!
And ulitmate reason knives are in the game:
- Because Flay put them there. It's as simple as that dude, and I'm sure Flay put in the knife because he felt that the marine's should be jack of all trades and should have a weapont that is suited to a role, much like every other weapon. LMG = Jack of all trades, pistol = extra packet of damage suited for long range encounters, Shotgun = CQB firepower, HMG = Anti-Alien ownage, GL = Anti-Structure devestation in a can, and finally, look at the melee capabilities for the marines...
If you were a developer, and you see all the other weapons, and then you look at the melee capabilities, you would probably think along the lines of this:
"Well, I think they could use a melee weapon too, to conserve ammo and if they run out of ammo. I know people wouldn't have a lot of fun if they just ran out of ammo and were completely harmless only to die. I'm sure people have learned lessons from the early CS beta builds, as well as the fact that it may not always be possible to get ammo from your comm if he doesn't give you any. If such a weapon were to be put in, it wouldn't want it to be useless, but definatly not useful beyond the lesser lifeforms. Ah! I got it. I'll call it a "knife"! It will deal an obscure amount of damage, and be gimped in most ways imaginable, yet it will be fun for the marines to use as a last resort weapon as well as conserve ammo, and the knife would be almost 100% useless on larger lifeforms. Problem solved"
I'm sure if the devs saw anything wrong with their original viewpoint then it would have been adressed by now.
Q.E.D.
I'm outtta this thread before I go insane now thx bai
The first part is the point, and the second is wrong. Structures.
And marines are meant to be "Jacks of all trades?" They have completely undeniable ranged superiority, excellent structure-clearing/area attack tools, an amazing CQC weapon, the options of good mobility or strong armor that can be quickly repaired in the field, the ability to alter the map with welders, an overseer that can drop a wad of cash to make his troops nearly immortal, devices to passively see enemies anywhere on the map, an ability to have the entire force appear at base, warp points to make up for relatively slow foot speed, and to top it all off, a default melee weapon that does a good amount of damage, has a very competitive range, and even disorients its target. Look up "Jack of all trades." It means that you're decent at many things. As in sort of mediocre at all of them. Marines are amazingly versatile, and very good at all of it.
Or do you see some fundamental marine weakness somewhere that I'm missing? Because I certainly can't find anything comparable to "is strictly a melee-based team." And I don't think it's too much to ask that the marines be very weak at such distances, considering that they own the range game lock, stock, and cold steel barrel.
I don't mean to go off on a marine rant, and I somewhat regret it (I'm still posting the thing); it'd be simple to make a similar list of kharaa strengths (though I wouldn't say that they're anywhere close to being as versatile a team). But it's hardly as if the marines "should" have effective CQC options. Each side needs a role, and it's clear that the marines are ranged. If they're truly meant to be Jacks of all trades, then their ranged advantage better get knocked down to "decent" levels to match, because otherwise, they're just plain excellent all over.
And yeah, Flayra puts stuff in because he thinks it'll be good. This board is here so we can let him know when he's wrong.
How Often you win at alean OC17?
im curious and I mean this in a non flam way, with no insulting. If it comes across that way im sorry
So they have a knife out, and you have less than 30 damamage. the bite has a farther range than the knife. second if he has his knife out hes outa ammo, just pull back a little and parasight kill him. or...wait till he begins to pull his gun out then kill him.sure I still get knife. but ive accepted it as part of the game.
ontime i had a knife kill match with a friend. in Co. I got 4 knife kills, he got 6. then they got big creatures and it was over basicly. In all honesty it takes less than an hour to learn how to knife kill a skulk, and at the same time, learn how to avoid getting knifed.
what triggered this?
I was playing on my normal server and a vet killed me 3 times in a row with a knife...So I decided to try and figure out how to do that as well. so I practices, and during so, I played against some skulks who knew how to kill knifers.
So I copied thier tactic. I realy dont understand how someone cannot learn how to stop 75% of the knifing.
1. You run faster than the gorge.
2. The gorge doesn't have a powerful enough attack to keep the marine at bay from knifing you.
Should I even begin on the fact that a gorge focus spit does the same damage as a normal skulk bite? Wouldn't this mean that gorges are actually the masters of ranged combat soley based on damage?
Just because one thing on either team is better than the other (and this thing wasn't really meant for the team, supposedly in this case, the knife), doesn't mean you have to nerf it because it is mediocre at best.
Spit is 25 damage base, not 37.5, and fires very slowly with focus. But yes, I gorges would have to be the kharaa ranged combat masters by default, though a case could be possibly be made for parasite due to the skulk's far better mobility. But obviously enough, marine weapons are hitscan and fire far faster, doing more damage that's more likely to hit in less time, so it's insane to even place spit in the same category. So yeah, this is a good comparison. And the knife isn't only useful against a skulk; it's useful against anything with a few slashes' worth of life, and the disorientation (which I've barely touched) is useful against anything.
If marines required shotguns to survive at close range (and combat was largely close-medium range, which I'll give you), LMGs would rarely kill anything, right? But they seem to manage well enough, and you don't see teams hiding in base until enough res trickle in to buy the life-giving shotguns. Hell, the thing was barely used in 1.04, with faster and tougher skulks, and no one even missed it. This is largely a luxury, and a very exorbitant one at that. One could say that it's needed against fades, but fades themselves are also rather messed up at the moment, so I'm not even taking them into account (I really don't want to get into that here, so either take my word on it or skip over it altogether).
Gecko, would you stop with the bloody parasiting? In the time it takes to empty and recharge the several energy bars it'd take to kill the guy (granted, that's variable), another marine is almost certain to show up. If one doesn't, you're dealing with a rambo who probably wouldn't ever knife you in the first place. Parasite is an option, sure, but it's not going to be a terribly practical one, and certainly not a reliable one. And Combat just destroys it completely. Also, if you weren't aware, reloads are all interuptable, so that's hardly a sign that you can safely charge in.
Clanners love to hack and cheat, right on big boy<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Way to distort what I said, genius. Some clanners != all clanners. But then I'd expect you to be defensive seeing that you're in #cri.
So... Does it really matter or are people just campaigning because they want to reduce the humiliation of being knifed every once in a while? If that's the case get over it.
The knife is not a primary weapon... It isn't even a secondary weapon... It is a last resort weapon. If someone becomes quite good with the knife congratulate them, for they have achieved something that is not as easy as some claim.
Clanners love to hack and cheat, right on big boy<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Way to distort what I said, genius. Some clanners != all clanners. But then I'd expect you to be defensive seeing that you're in #cri. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
OLOL #CRI H$X
Some of you people say like "omgomg that knife is so stupid, it challenges skulks bite" but when you really think about it, knife really is useless if you use it in "normal" situations (like if u see a skulk at the other end of the hallway, I doubt u will just rush it with knife in your hand).
And to these "special" situations. Someone mentioned killing around 3 skulks with a knife in one bunch. Right. So what is there so special about that? If you could do it like 5 times every day, I would admit there is a problem, but I think you haven't done it that many times. Just because you get lucky once doesn't mean something is screwed. I've killed 7 marines with a skulk in ns_bast in version 1.04. Does that make bite overpowerful? No. Pure luck. It's just impossible to reduce a weapons luck modifier, no matter what you nerfed...
And to the person who said knifes should be nerfed so that the "humiliating deaths would be reduced". Lol? if knife did like 10 dmg and someone would die to that, wouldn't that be at least 3 times as humiliating?
hmm well i doubt i will never remember to return to this topic, but sure, flame me all the way to hell...
Beacuse:
1) It's easier to kill things before they get a CHANCE to kill you.
2) Most marines just hold down fire and 'swingswingswing' like a four year old playing minigolf, instead of swinging when they SHOULD.
3) Marines are larger targets and easier to see.
moral of the story... if u cant kill a marine with a knife ur an idiot.
ive killed many marines while my hp was low enough to take a knife
and im consider myself quite a clown.. so dont know whats wrong with u <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
I don't think it's wrong that a skulk dies when I shove a knife through him. Sure, your view animation shows slashing, but the playermodel thrusts.
I also don't see what humiliation there is in killing with a knife.
Skulks kill in melee all the time.
If someone dies to a knife it's because they were below 30hits. If you slashed it a couple of times before it died, it was just unlucky.
It really annoys me that the guy that kills the onos with a knife is the one that gets the credits.
What about the other 5-6 guys shooting all their ammo at it?
<!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::marine::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/marine.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='marine.gif' /><!--endemo-->
It happens all the time <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
and people say the knife isn't powerful? I'm admittedly not even that great as a marine, yet if I'm perfectly able to knife several skulks and maintain a normal K:D ratio by using the knife in an intelligent manner (and not swinging madly like a moron lacking depth perception playing minigolf), then something must be wrong. These players I was knifing weren't crappy either, as I know someone will say as such. I wish I got some screenshots or something, but for some reason my screenshot key refuses to work (and has done for a while, now that I think about it)
The knife damage should be reduced because marines are SUPPOSED to move in groups. This isn't a 1 on 1 deathmatch game. It's team oriented...c'mon people. The knife is a lightsaber. You can argue about 1 on 1, but the truth is, being 1 on 1 against a skulk SHOULD be a rare occasion. And if you cannot kill it with 50 lmg/10 pistol, you really DO deserve to perish. =\
Just my 2 cents.
I mean I understand what your saying, that since they are in groups they can take everything out,...
but from my understanding the whole idea of the knife and it's high damage was for marines to be able to take out structures like res towers without having to worry about ammo...
if you get knifed oh well, really people come on, it's not a super duper kill all weapon...