Suicide is cowardly and selfish. Did he not think about the people around him that he would affect by doing that? If he really had that much trouble he should have tried to get councelling or something. From what he wrote it seemed like he killed himself because he thought he was a failure (read the time capsule post). Well maybe instead of killing himself (the easy way out) he coulda gone and tried to accomplish some of his goals. I just don't get how people can be defending his decision. He <b>doesn't</b> have that right. Suicide is illegal.
And I'm sorry if this comes across harsh but someone had to say it how it is.
<!--QuoteBegin-CForrester+Jun 3 2004, 12:01 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (CForrester @ Jun 3 2004, 12:01 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><b>Always remember that morals are subjective, MedHead.</b><!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sorry, personal opinions are subjective. Morals? Not so much.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><b>Just because you might think that something is wrong doesn't mean that <i>everyone</i> will think that it's wrong. It seems that you have a <i>huge</i> problem remembering that, because it seems like you're trying to force your views on everyone else.</b><!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Haha. Explain to me how I can <b>force</b> a change of opinion or a conviction over a message board. Firmly stating a conviction is not forcing anything.
Also, please tell me how doing so is somehow wrong. Welcome to debate.
Sorry, personal opinions are subjective. Morals? Not so much.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><b>Just because you might think that something is wrong doesn't mean that <i>everyone</i> will think that it's wrong. It seems that you have a <i>huge</i> problem remembering that, because it seems like you're trying to force your views on everyone else.</b><!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Haha. Explain to me how I can <b>force</b> a change of opinion or a conviction over a message board. Firmly stating a conviction is not forcing anything.
Also, please tell me how doing so is somehow wrong. Welcome to debate. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> That's not something I want to hijack the thread over, so we can continue in PMs if you'd like.
Alright, this has gone too far. I shouldn't have made that first post, but done is done. Now, lets stop arguing about whether Michael was in his right to commit suicide, and plain grieve the loss. <span style='font-size:2pt;line-height:100%'>not that I had ever heard of him before this topic..</span>
Humour, rhetorical questions or any kind of informal discussion in the discussion forum seems to be banned, so I would vote no.
Also on an end note, the only argument against suicide MedHead and Align have given is that it is selfish. Who are we to judge if anyone cared about him, we just don't know so every absolute statement in this thread is obsolete. Lets just leave it at: he killed himself, it's sad.
I've been reading this thread quite carefully and I have a question. It's been established that suicide is cowardly. But what if, for example, you are a fighter pilot over the ocean,your radio is out, you are low on fuel, ammo, food ect. You are miles and miles away from land and the nearest friendly ship. If you bail out you will fall into freezing water and suffer injuries from the fall(certian death). However, you see an ememy crusier, gunboat whatever. Would you consider it wrong in aspects in killing yourself(not killing the enemy) if you took a kamakazi dive using what ever ammo you have left to attempet to destroy said enemy ship and take as many of your opponets with you?
It seems to me this topic is sumed up by : IF you have a happy life, you think suicide is wrong, however if you live a sad and depressing life (like many of us) you think that's it's fine.
I think suicide is fine, it's your choice, you don't choose people to be effected, however if you have childeren then i would say then it's selfish as that will probably force the kids to take the same route as you <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
MedHead, I'm sure you're thinking of me as someone disgusting who thinks defending suicide is right.
Unfortunately, that is how the world works. Heck, I didn't even know people ate cheese made from maggots till a year ago.
So yeah, there's lots more for us to see, like seeing human cannibalism with our own eyes.
As for people being affected by people who commited suicide, well, the suicidee wouldn't be able to think about them anyway, because their mind is confused and stuff, and they get stuck thinking about themselves only. That's the only selfish part about suicide, but it is involuntary. Most of the time when a person commits suicide, they pretty much become disillusioned with the fact that no one is there. I repeat, <b>no one</b>.
I once tried to kill myself, but I stopped because I finally came to my senses (Actually, I decided not to die because of a certain someone....whom I shall not speak of)
However, I do get those days where I feel like killing myself. Too bad there isn't any alternative when a suicidee chooses to kill themselves and don't change their mind. That's being narrow-minded.
However, it's their decision. As much as I'd like to intervene, I've concluded that people usually don't listen to other people anymore when in such a suicidal state. The only people who could have stopped them were their relatives, GF/BF, etc.
In Mike's state, you could say his life was getting out of his hand. I just wish he were still alive.
And now you know what? I'm confused as to wether I am actually defending suicide or not :\ The irony....
<!--QuoteBegin-waller+Jun 4 2004, 04:26 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (waller @ Jun 4 2004, 04:26 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> It seems to me this topic is sumed up by : IF you have a happy life, you think suicide is wrong, however if you live a sad and depressing life (like many of us) you think that's it's fine. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Not really, my life is great, but I think that if someone decides to end their life for whatever reason, they should be allowed to.
Who the hell makes a life decision based on what he wanted as a <b>12 year old</b>? 12 year olds are idiots. When I was 12 I wanted to be John Rambo and an airline pilot. Hell if I want to be an airline pilot now...
<!--QuoteBegin-waller+Jun 4 2004, 04:26 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (waller @ Jun 4 2004, 04:26 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->It seems to me this topic is sumed up by : IF you have a happy life, you think suicide is wrong, however if you live a sad and depressing life (like many of us) you think that's it's fine.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> To me it's like: IF you believe in god and that he says suicide is wrong, you think suicide is wrong. However if you don't, then you think suicide is sad but not wrong.
And as regards to <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->It's been established that suicide is cowardly<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> this is totally based on culture; look at japanese culture! It's even honorable!
<!--QuoteBegin-juice+Jun 4 2004, 11:59 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (juice @ Jun 4 2004, 11:59 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> And as regards to <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->It's been established that suicide is cowardly<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> this is totally based on culture; look at japanese culture! It's even honorable! <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Actually you have that half-right. Japanese people kill themselves for the emperor, not for themselves.
So no, it isn't suicide, it's self-sacrifice. Think of the 'I shall die for him!' mentality.
<!--QuoteBegin-EEK+Jun 4 2004, 01:11 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (EEK @ Jun 4 2004, 01:11 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Who the hell makes a life decision based on what he wanted as a <b>12 year old</b>? 12 year olds are idiots. When I was 12 I wanted to be John Rambo and an airline pilot. Hell if I want to be an airline pilot now... <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> We are already discussing how intelligent people are at the age of 12 / 13 in <a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=72443' target='_blank'>this thread.</a> Not everyone was Johnny-Head-In-The-Clouds at that age, I know I sure as heck wasn't. ----------------------------------------------------- Anyway Medhead, I really don't understand what your getting at. How is it your decision what other people do? If you think suicide is wrong, that is fine, but it is your opinion, therefore; <span style='font-size:14pt;line-height:100%'>it Applies only to you.</span> What this guy did, was his own choice, in fact you don't even know the guy so it had a minimal effect on you.
Lets pretend you did know this guy however, and that you considered it selfish because he took <i>his</i> presence out of <i>your</i> life, well there you go then! He dealt you a temporary blow so that he could save himself some self-inflicted torment. Looks like you had to take a tradeoff so that he could be a happier person. Wow, I'm so sorry that you had to grieve for a period of time. You yell at people who are depressed to "Get over it" and "Fix their problems", now is your chance to fix your own grief. See? You could apply your method of treatment to the people who were affected by the death.
If religious, then he's burning in hell right now for all eternity.
If not, then I think <b>a</b> life is better then <b>no</b> life... <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> So you are saying that if you are married for 30 years, and have kids, and are incredibly close with all of them, and they were to die in a car accident, you shouldn't have the right to say you don't want to live without them?
That's a little hard for me to accept, there were (not sure if there still are) places where a spouse chose to be cremated along with the deceased. I don't find anything wrong with that.
Moving on to depression, I think once someone is above the age of 18 and they are diagnosed with life-long depression, it is up to them if they want to A) choose to live with it B) choose to pop head-screwers (anti-depressants) for the rest of their lives or C) Euthanasia.
Heres my answer to the relegious aspect of it, if you are truly sorry for an act, even one you are bout to commit, doesn't that mean you have repented it? The only qualificatons to get into heaven if I remember correctly is to be baptized and repent for your sins.
Bottom line is we should be mourning, and praying for the loss of a life, not arguing about suicide.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->[14 Apr 2004|04:08pm] although i would love to ask everyone three questions in their journals, i refuse to answer anyone three in mine. so it dies with me, sorry.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That was in his blog. Looks like he was contemplating suicide for a long time, even before he broke up with his g/f.
<!--QuoteBegin-dr.d+Jun 5 2004, 07:18 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (dr.d @ Jun 5 2004, 07:18 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> So you are saying that if you are married for 30 years, and have kids, and are incredibly close with all of them, and they were to die in a car accident, you shouldn't have the right to say you don't want to live without them? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Personally I would not suicide at that point, no matter how sad I was. And if it happened to someone I knew, I would also try to persuade them not to commit suicide. But I'm ~ on whether it would be wrong or not.
<!--QuoteBegin-Cold-NiTe+Jun 5 2004, 12:33 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Cold-NiTe @ Jun 5 2004, 12:33 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Anyway Medhead, I really don't understand what your getting at. How is it your decision what other people do? If you think suicide is wrong, that is fine, but it is your <b>opinion</b>, therefore; <span style='font-size:14pt;line-height:100%'>it Applies only to you.</span> What this guy did, was his own choice, in fact you don't even know the guy so it had a minimal effect on you.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> The bold word is where your sentence strayed from truth. It is not my opinion, it is my conviction. Suicide is wrong. If you're open minded, as so many of you claim to be, you will accept my conviction without hesitation, or rebuttal. If you don't, you must be as closed minded as you claim me to be, and nowhere near as tolerant as you wish.
Morals apply to all, and are not subjective, as another has stated. If that was the case, why would there be such immense outcry from the suicide-tolerant folks? If morals are subjective, then there should be no debate, because everyone has their own truth. You and others have attacked me because I dare to think differently, and dare to think my position is correct. I see no problem in it, but most of the others (if not all) feel there is a problem. It seems that because 1. I have a foundation (the Bible) on which to base my convictions, 2. I have a spine to back them up, and 3. I think everyone else is wrong (hence the debate), people are going into a tailspin over what I say.
Look folks, if you don't think you're right, why do you bother debating? I thought it was to change the opinion of another person. If you all think you're wrong in some way, what's the point? Are you trading wrong opinions or something? However, if you're looking for something more "right", why then are you attacking me? Because I feel what I believe is right? Isn't that what you've been looking for?
I never stated this death had <b>any</b> effect on me (in the way you're suggesting). We're debating here. I don't have to be affected to debate.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Lets pretend you did know this guy however, and that you considered it selfish because he took <i>his</i> presence out of <i>your</i> life, well there you go then! He dealt you a temporary blow so that he could save himself some self-inflicted torment.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Uh, no. He's burning in hell now. That's not a trade-off. He's probably wishing for the day-to-day sadness of his own existance on Earth. And that's what disturbs me. He went into a new situation without fully knowing what was ahead of him. Now he's lost, and there's nothing anyone can do for him. I think that would disturb anyone.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Looks like you had to take a tradeoff so that he could be a happier person. Wow, I'm so sorry that you had to grieve for a period of time. You yell at people who are depressed to "Get over it" and "Fix their problems", now is your chance to fix your own grief. See? You could apply your method of treatment to the people who were affected by the death.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Wow... if you could be any more sarcastic, someone would have to place a warning label on your forehead.
Anywho, believe me, he's not a happier person. I grieve that he never accepted Christ. I never knew the man, so the grief was different.
Are you under the assumption that because I'm debating my convictions, I'm still in the process of grief? Does "debate" confound you people or something?
EDIT: We've made our points here... can we just end it?
Medhead: I just have one last thing to add to the arguement. When you tell them to get help and get over it, how does one do that? Where do you go exactly for such treatment and remedies to mental (and at times emotional) problems? That is where the problem is, people don't know where to really go to get treatment. To their doctor? Yeah, that actually works, but then, when you are in that state of mind, you can't think straight. It's just something that you have to experience to really understand how their mind works. But don't forget about another fact, money. If one doesn't have the proper insuarance for such medical practicies to help deal (there is no cure for depression) with depression, they can cost quite a lot. Just one trip to my psychiatrist for just about 30 minutes talking to him and telling him how I feel and getting a prescription cost around $200, just that one visit, and you don't go once and get pills for life. You get appointments ranging from weekly to yearly appointments for check ups, seeing how well you are coping and even if you are alive. That gets to be very expensive and a lot of the people don't have the money.
As for your conviction, you have as much right as I do to my opinoin. To you, suicide is wrong and they will go to hell for all eternity, but then, in their mind, they are in hell, they are in pain at the moment of time, excruciating pain and they want it to stop, and out of all the methods they can think of/use, suicide is the easiest and simplest. But no amount of debate will bring him or anyone else that has commited suicide back. It's not easy dealing with it every day, but then, if they put forth the effort, they can usually enjoy a much better life without as much pain and regret as they have.
Medhead the pro suicide side of the discussion has presented its points and questions, all you have said is its wrong, he's burning in hell. If anyone here is closed minded it's you.
He isn't being close minded, he has stated his opinion backed it up with why he thinks he's right.
I believe morals are purely subjective, but then I don't believe in a god. Someone with a religion is obviously gonna believe that morals are (quite literally) set in stone and anyone who doesn't follow them is wrong and will quite possibly go to hell (I say quite possibly because of absolution).
If I'd known you were a Christian I wouldn't have bothered discussing it with you, we have completely different opinions and, unless I come down with a sudden case of epiphany or you lose your faith we aren't ever going to agree.
You <b>are</b> entitled to your opinion but for you, it isn't an opinion, its a fact which is fundamental to your life even though there isn't any evidence to support that fact (don't try and prove god here, that's already in the discussion forum and it wasn't successful then, it won't be now).
Just see it from our perspective, if there was no god then there would be no set right or wrong. If that was so then there is no real reason not to do it and plenty of reasons why people would. Yes? I think you can safely agree to that without actually saying that suicide is right. Just that it is... justifiable if there isn't a god.
I'm am extremely happy to say that if the Christian God actually exists then suicide would be wrong as he made the rules that way.
So, suicide is ok because its your own life? K, how about I go crash this car and accidentally damage nearby people with the explosion, surely thats MY problem? Oh others got hurt? And I take it noone got hurt mentally when you suicided? Riiiiiight.
<b>Life is hard in one word. </b> <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Oh, for [random natural force]'s sake, people. Stop sticking your fingers in your ears, saying "lalalala, I can't hear you" and then utter some non-sequiter to back up your argument. Go back and read each other's posts. Medhead, I'm talking to you.
Oh, and before I continue, if anyone's going to reply simply with "you don't know what it's like", or to draw ridiculous and illogical comparisons like "if you're against suicide then you're against people being born, too! I win! nyah", then don't bother. Don't waste my time.
Now, then.
I understand why people take their own lives; because they don't see any point in continuing. I also understand clinical depression.
Nevertheless, I still believe that those who take their own lives are fools. <i>Nothing</i> is worth killing yourself. Perhaps "fool" is too strong a term. "Misguided" would be kinder. Suicide is the easy way out, easier than facing the problems that drive the person to depression, easier than having the courage to seek help.
So then there's the business of suicide because life is meaningless. Well, guess what: life <i>is</i> meaningless. That's why religion was invented - to justify life. Yeah, if you can't see any meaning to life and you're not happy, I can see why you'd want to kill yourself to end it.
The fact is, you have to find your own meaning to life, and if you can't find one you like you have to make one. You can't bleed yourself caring for other people, or for the rest of the world. You have to take care of yourself first and foremost. Nothing is more important than your own happiness. (To digress for a moment, I'm not saying that you should further yourself at the expense of others, I'm saying that you must <i>never</i> hurt yourself to help others. Self-sacrifice is very noble, but never feel that you're obligated to do it.)
You can't bear the weight of the world on your shoulders. You can't cure idiocy. You can't please everyone. You can't always make people see when you're right, but you can make yourself heard. Introspection really f***ing hurts sometimes.
Suicide isn't selfish, it's self-absorbed. You can't be selfish and suicidal at the same time; if you're selfish, you further your own needs at any cost to others, but you <i>are</i> furthering your own needs. Suicide is because you're so wrapped up in yourself that you can't <i>see</i> others. If you kill yourself, you're going to hurt a lot of people, whether you realise it or not. If you do realise and you don't care, then <i>that's</i> selfish; but that's a good sign. Go with that. Better that you take care of yourself first and maybe perhaps hurt others in the process than kill yourself and definately hurt others.
No, it's not easy. Especially if you're different. Especially if you're smart and different; you're smart enough to see your flaws and flay yourself because of it, and different enough to not fit in. It sucks to be right when everyone else is wrong. And it's not easy at all. But you have to have the courage to live, and to live as yourself. Courage isn't fearlessness, it's keeping on going even though you're scared.
And you don't have to suffer by yourself. If you're even thinking of killing yourself (look, aside from thinking hypothetically; don't be a smartarse), get help. Asking for help takes courage. Going to see a shrink is probably a good idea, but even before that just find someone to talk to. To talk <i>at</i>. Writing it out in a journal is a good start, but it's not enough. Find another human being who will listen to you, and tell them. Tell someone. It's not who that matters, it's that you're talking. If there really isn't anyone, you have to have the courage to find a counsellor. If they're half decent, they'll accept that you just want to talk at them. It sounds silly, but even wihout resolving any issues, just talking them out relieves a huge burden.
Finally, life is hard. It's even harder if you live it differently from other people. Find a purpose to live - or make one - <b><i>and live, damnit</i></b>. Maybe religion, if that's your thing. For some people it's art. For others it's something that involves other people. Even if you have to join the army to exorcise your demons - <i>do it</i>.
If you do this you are bad. If you take your life and don't 'assault' anyone? Note this is limited to intentional assault. If someone mourns for you it is not assault. Hmm wish I could think of a better word for it, oh well assault works.
<!--QuoteBegin-SoulSkorpion+Jun 8 2004, 09:45 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (SoulSkorpion @ Jun 8 2004, 09:45 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> If you kill yourself, you're going to hurt a lot of people, whether you realise it or not. If you do realise and you don't care, then <i>that's</i> selfish; but that's a good sign. Go with that. Better that you take care of yourself first and maybe perhaps hurt others in the process than kill yourself and definately hurt others. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I disagree, I'd prefer someone who hurts others on purpose to commit suicide than carry on doing it.
i agree that people should seek help, that there are almost always ways to improve your life... I say almost because sometimes there is literally nothing you can do. In which case why torture yourself.
<!--QuoteBegin-CMEast+Jun 8 2004, 09:05 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (CMEast @ Jun 8 2004, 09:05 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-SoulSkorpion+Jun 8 2004, 09:45 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (SoulSkorpion @ Jun 8 2004, 09:45 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> If you kill yourself, you're going to hurt a lot of people, whether you realise it or not. If you do realise and you don't care, then <i>that's</i> selfish; but that's a good sign. Go with that. Better that you take care of yourself first and maybe perhaps hurt others in the process than kill yourself and definately hurt others. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I disagree, I'd prefer someone who hurts others on purpose to commit suicide than carry on doing it. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I was exagerating the point slightly. I mean, people who enjoy bullying other people isn't right. What I mean is that sometimes people are scared of hurting or inconveniencing other people, so they sacrifice thier own hapiness for the sake of other peoples'. And <i>that</i> is not healthy.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The bold word is where your sentence strayed from truth. It is not my opinion, it is my conviction. Suicide is wrong. If you're open minded, as so many of you claim to be, you will accept my conviction without hesitation, or rebuttal. If you don't, you must be as closed minded as you claim me to be, and nowhere near as tolerant as you wish.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Why? You can't accept anyone elses convictions/opinions "without hesitation, or rebuttal", you are IMO the most closed minded person in this thread by far(not that you have claimed to be open minded, but I assume you want to think of yourself as such).
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Are some of you actually defending suicide?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I can't believe you people actually are defending suicide. That's disgusting.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Wow... that's mind boggling to me. I'll never understand the mentality that killing oneself to get out of a situation is not only acceptable, but understood by others. That's crazy.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->But to think that it's okay to commit suicide... wow. That's wrong. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I would like to see you be a bit more sensitive than that, there is nothing wrong in having convictions/opinions/beliefs differing from yours.
Comments
And I'm sorry if this comes across harsh but someone had to say it how it is.
Sorry, personal opinions are subjective. Morals? Not so much.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><b>Just because you might think that something is wrong doesn't mean that <i>everyone</i> will think that it's wrong. It seems that you have a <i>huge</i> problem remembering that, because it seems like you're trying to force your views on everyone else.</b><!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Haha. Explain to me how I can <b>force</b> a change of opinion or a conviction over a message board. Firmly stating a conviction is not forcing anything.
Also, please tell me how doing so is somehow wrong. Welcome to debate.
Sorry, personal opinions are subjective. Morals? Not so much.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><b>Just because you might think that something is wrong doesn't mean that <i>everyone</i> will think that it's wrong. It seems that you have a <i>huge</i> problem remembering that, because it seems like you're trying to force your views on everyone else.</b><!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Haha. Explain to me how I can <b>force</b> a change of opinion or a conviction over a message board. Firmly stating a conviction is not forcing anything.
Also, please tell me how doing so is somehow wrong. Welcome to debate. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's not something I want to hijack the thread over, so we can continue in PMs if you'd like.
Now, lets stop arguing about whether Michael was in his right to commit suicide, and plain grieve the loss. <span style='font-size:2pt;line-height:100%'>not that I had ever heard of him before this topic..</span>
Also on an end note, the only argument against suicide MedHead and Align have given is that it is selfish. Who are we to judge if anyone cared about him, we just don't know so every absolute statement in this thread is obsolete. Lets just leave it at: he killed himself, it's sad.
I think suicide is fine, it's your choice, you don't choose people to be effected, however if you have childeren then i would say then it's selfish as that will probably force the kids to take the same route as you <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
my two cents .
Unfortunately, that is how the world works. Heck, I didn't even know people ate cheese made from maggots till a year ago.
So yeah, there's lots more for us to see, like seeing human cannibalism with our own eyes.
As for people being affected by people who commited suicide, well, the suicidee wouldn't be able to think about them anyway, because their mind is confused and stuff, and they get stuck thinking about themselves only. That's the only selfish part about suicide, but it is involuntary. Most of the time when a person commits suicide, they pretty much become disillusioned with the fact that no one is there. I repeat, <b>no one</b>.
I once tried to kill myself, but I stopped because I finally came to my senses (Actually, I decided not to die because of a certain someone....whom I shall not speak of)
However, I do get those days where I feel like killing myself. Too bad there isn't any alternative when a suicidee chooses to kill themselves and don't change their mind. That's being narrow-minded.
However, it's their decision. As much as I'd like to intervene, I've concluded that people usually don't listen to other people anymore when in such a suicidal state. The only people who could have stopped them were their relatives, GF/BF, etc.
In Mike's state, you could say his life was getting out of his hand. I just wish he were still alive.
And now you know what? I'm confused as to wether I am actually defending suicide or not :\
The irony....
Not really, my life is great, but I think that if someone decides to end their life for whatever reason, they should be allowed to.
To me it's like:
IF you believe in god and that he says suicide is wrong, you think suicide is wrong.
However if you don't, then you think suicide is sad but not wrong.
And as regards to <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->It's been established that suicide is cowardly<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> this is totally based on culture; look at japanese culture! It's even honorable!
Actually you have that half-right. Japanese people kill themselves for the emperor, not for themselves.
So no, it isn't suicide, it's self-sacrifice. Think of the 'I shall die for him!' mentality.
Suicide is something else.
We are already discussing how intelligent people are at the age of 12 / 13 in <a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=72443' target='_blank'>this thread.</a> Not everyone was Johnny-Head-In-The-Clouds at that age, I know I sure as heck wasn't.
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Anyway Medhead, I really don't understand what your getting at. How is it your decision what other people do? If you think suicide is wrong, that is fine, but it is your opinion, therefore; <span style='font-size:14pt;line-height:100%'>it Applies only to you.</span> What this guy did, was his own choice, in fact you don't even know the guy so it had a minimal effect on you.
Lets pretend you did know this guy however, and that you considered it selfish because he took <i>his</i> presence out of <i>your</i> life, well there you go then! He dealt you a temporary blow so that he could save himself some self-inflicted torment. Looks like you had to take a tradeoff so that he could be a happier person. Wow, I'm so sorry that you had to grieve for a period of time. You yell at people who are depressed to "Get over it" and "Fix their problems", now is your chance to fix your own grief. See? You could apply your method of treatment to the people who were affected by the death.
If religious, then he's burning in hell right now for all eternity.
If not, then I think <b>a</b> life is better then <b>no</b> life...
If religious, then he's burning in hell right now for all eternity.
If not, then I think <b>a</b> life is better then <b>no</b> life... <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So you are saying that if you are married for 30 years, and have kids, and are incredibly close with all of them, and they were to die in a car accident, you shouldn't have the right to say you don't want to live without them?
That's a little hard for me to accept, there were (not sure if there still are) places where a spouse chose to be cremated along with the deceased. I don't find anything wrong with that.
Moving on to depression, I think once someone is above the age of 18 and they are diagnosed with life-long depression, it is up to them if they want to A) choose to live with it B) choose to pop head-screwers (anti-depressants) for the rest of their lives or C) Euthanasia.
Heres my answer to the relegious aspect of it, if you are truly sorry for an act, even one you are bout to commit, doesn't that mean you have repented it? The only qualificatons to get into heaven if I remember correctly is to be baptized and repent for your sins.
Bottom line is we should be mourning, and praying for the loss of a life, not arguing about suicide.
although i would love to ask everyone three questions in their journals, i refuse to answer anyone three in mine. so it dies with me, sorry.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That was in his blog. Looks like he was contemplating suicide for a long time, even before he broke up with his g/f.
<!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Personally I would not suicide at that point, no matter how sad I was. And if it happened to someone I knew, I would also try to persuade them not to commit suicide.
But I'm ~ on whether it would be wrong or not.
The bold word is where your sentence strayed from truth. It is not my opinion, it is my conviction. Suicide is wrong. If you're open minded, as so many of you claim to be, you will accept my conviction without hesitation, or rebuttal. If you don't, you must be as closed minded as you claim me to be, and nowhere near as tolerant as you wish.
Morals apply to all, and are not subjective, as another has stated. If that was the case, why would there be such immense outcry from the suicide-tolerant folks? If morals are subjective, then there should be no debate, because everyone has their own truth. You and others have attacked me because I dare to think differently, and dare to think my position is correct. I see no problem in it, but most of the others (if not all) feel there is a problem. It seems that because 1. I have a foundation (the Bible) on which to base my convictions, 2. I have a spine to back them up, and 3. I think everyone else is wrong (hence the debate), people are going into a tailspin over what I say.
Look folks, if you don't think you're right, why do you bother debating? I thought it was to change the opinion of another person. If you all think you're wrong in some way, what's the point? Are you trading wrong opinions or something? However, if you're looking for something more "right", why then are you attacking me? Because I feel what I believe is right? Isn't that what you've been looking for?
I never stated this death had <b>any</b> effect on me (in the way you're suggesting). We're debating here. I don't have to be affected to debate.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Lets pretend you did know this guy however, and that you considered it selfish because he took <i>his</i> presence out of <i>your</i> life, well there you go then! He dealt you a temporary blow so that he could save himself some self-inflicted torment.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Uh, no. He's burning in hell now. That's not a trade-off. He's probably wishing for the day-to-day sadness of his own existance on Earth. And that's what disturbs me. He went into a new situation without fully knowing what was ahead of him. Now he's lost, and there's nothing anyone can do for him. I think that would disturb anyone.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Looks like you had to take a tradeoff so that he could be a happier person. Wow, I'm so sorry that you had to grieve for a period of time. You yell at people who are depressed to "Get over it" and "Fix their problems", now is your chance to fix your own grief. See? You could apply your method of treatment to the people who were affected by the death.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Wow... if you could be any more sarcastic, someone would have to place a warning label on your forehead.
Anywho, believe me, he's not a happier person. I grieve that he never accepted Christ. I never knew the man, so the grief was different.
Are you under the assumption that because I'm debating my convictions, I'm still in the process of grief? Does "debate" confound you people or something?
EDIT: We've made our points here... can we just end it?
As for your conviction, you have as much right as I do to my opinoin. To you, suicide is wrong and they will go to hell for all eternity, but then, in their mind, they are in hell, they are in pain at the moment of time, excruciating pain and they want it to stop, and out of all the methods they can think of/use, suicide is the easiest and simplest. But no amount of debate will bring him or anyone else that has commited suicide back. It's not easy dealing with it every day, but then, if they put forth the effort, they can usually enjoy a much better life without as much pain and regret as they have.
I believe morals are purely subjective, but then I don't believe in a god. Someone with a religion is obviously gonna believe that morals are (quite literally) set in stone and anyone who doesn't follow them is wrong and will quite possibly go to hell (I say quite possibly because of absolution).
If I'd known you were a Christian I wouldn't have bothered discussing it with you, we have completely different opinions and, unless I come down with a sudden case of epiphany or you lose your faith we aren't ever going to agree.
You <b>are</b> entitled to your opinion but for you, it isn't an opinion, its a fact which is fundamental to your life even though there isn't any evidence to support that fact (don't try and prove god here, that's already in the discussion forum and it wasn't successful then, it won't be now).
Just see it from our perspective, if there was no god then there would be no set right or wrong. If that was so then there is no real reason not to do it and plenty of reasons why people would. Yes? I think you can safely agree to that without actually saying that suicide is right. Just that it is... justifiable if there isn't a god.
I'm am extremely happy to say that if the Christian God actually exists then suicide would be wrong as he made the rules that way.
Riiiiiight.
Oh, and before I continue, if anyone's going to reply simply with "you don't know what it's like", or to draw ridiculous and illogical comparisons like "if you're against suicide then you're against people being born, too! I win! nyah", then don't bother. Don't waste my time.
Now, then.
I understand why people take their own lives; because they don't see any point in continuing. I also understand clinical depression.
Nevertheless, I still believe that those who take their own lives are fools. <i>Nothing</i> is worth killing yourself. Perhaps "fool" is too strong a term. "Misguided" would be kinder. Suicide is the easy way out, easier than facing the problems that drive the person to depression, easier than having the courage to seek help.
So then there's the business of suicide because life is meaningless. Well, guess what: life <i>is</i> meaningless. That's why religion was invented - to justify life. Yeah, if you can't see any meaning to life and you're not happy, I can see why you'd want to kill yourself to end it.
The fact is, you have to find your own meaning to life, and if you can't find one you like you have to make one. You can't bleed yourself caring for other people, or for the rest of the world. You have to take care of yourself first and foremost. Nothing is more important than your own happiness. (To digress for a moment, I'm not saying that you should further yourself at the expense of others, I'm saying that you must <i>never</i> hurt yourself to help others. Self-sacrifice is very noble, but never feel that you're obligated to do it.)
You can't bear the weight of the world on your shoulders. You can't cure idiocy. You can't please everyone. You can't always make people see when you're right, but you can make yourself heard. Introspection really f***ing hurts sometimes.
Suicide isn't selfish, it's self-absorbed. You can't be selfish and suicidal at the same time; if you're selfish, you further your own needs at any cost to others, but you <i>are</i> furthering your own needs. Suicide is because you're so wrapped up in yourself that you can't <i>see</i> others. If you kill yourself, you're going to hurt a lot of people, whether you realise it or not. If you do realise and you don't care, then <i>that's</i> selfish; but that's a good sign. Go with that. Better that you take care of yourself first and maybe perhaps hurt others in the process than kill yourself and definately hurt others.
No, it's not easy. Especially if you're different. Especially if you're smart and different; you're smart enough to see your flaws and flay yourself because of it, and different enough to not fit in. It sucks to be right when everyone else is wrong. And it's not easy at all. But you have to have the courage to live, and to live as yourself. Courage isn't fearlessness, it's keeping on going even though you're scared.
And you don't have to suffer by yourself. If you're even thinking of killing yourself (look, aside from thinking hypothetically; don't be a smartarse), get help. Asking for help takes courage. Going to see a shrink is probably a good idea, but even before that just find someone to talk to. To talk <i>at</i>. Writing it out in a journal is a good start, but it's not enough. Find another human being who will listen to you, and tell them. Tell someone. It's not who that matters, it's that you're talking. If there really isn't anyone, you have to have the courage to find a counsellor. If they're half decent, they'll accept that you just want to talk at them. It sounds silly, but even wihout resolving any issues, just talking them out relieves a huge burden.
Finally, life is hard. It's even harder if you live it differently from other people. Find a purpose to live - or make one - <b><i>and live, damnit</i></b>. Maybe religion, if that's your thing. For some people it's art. For others it's something that involves other people. Even if you have to join the army to exorcise your demons - <i>do it</i>.
<a href='http://www.google.co.nz/search?hl=en&ie=UTF-8&safe=off&q=define%3A+assault&btnG=Search&meta=' target='_blank'>assault</a>
attack someone physically or emotionally;
If you do this you are bad. If you take your life and don't 'assault' anyone? Note this is limited to intentional assault. If someone mourns for you it is not assault. Hmm wish I could think of a better word for it, oh well assault works.
I disagree, I'd prefer someone who hurts others on purpose to commit suicide than carry on doing it.
i agree that people should seek help, that there are almost always ways to improve your life... I say almost because sometimes there is literally nothing you can do. In which case why torture yourself.
I disagree, I'd prefer someone who hurts others on purpose to commit suicide than carry on doing it. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I was exagerating the point slightly. I mean, people who enjoy bullying other people isn't right. What I mean is that sometimes people are scared of hurting or inconveniencing other people, so they sacrifice thier own hapiness for the sake of other peoples'. And <i>that</i> is not healthy.
Why? You can't accept anyone elses convictions/opinions "without hesitation, or rebuttal", you are IMO the most closed minded person in this thread by far(not that you have claimed to be open minded, but I assume you want to think of yourself as such).
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Are some of you actually defending suicide?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I can't believe you people actually are defending suicide. That's disgusting.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Wow... that's mind boggling to me. I'll never understand the mentality that killing oneself to get out of a situation is not only acceptable, but understood by others. That's crazy.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->But to think that it's okay to commit suicide... wow. That's wrong. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I would like to see you be a bit more sensitive than that, there is nothing wrong in having convictions/opinions/beliefs differing from yours.