<!--QuoteBegin-Necrosis+Jul 30 2004, 07:09 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Necrosis @ Jul 30 2004, 07:09 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I can reach it... I can reach it!!
Indiana....... let it go....
Wise words that should be applied to anyone reaching for the "definitive" Star Wars experience. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Or just go play KOTOR.
<!--QuoteBegin-Necrosis+Jul 30 2004, 09:12 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Necrosis @ Jul 30 2004, 09:12 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I don't think you'd want to see KOTOR after George Lucas playing it. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I don't think you'd want time to learn English <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo-->
KOTOR was nice. Watching someone play it was like watching another Star Wars movie.
I know english very well, not only GCSE English but also English Literature, and again I state that you would NOT want to see KOTOR after George has a go at it and decided to "optimise" a few things.
I think you should go back to english class and pay attention this time round.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->What's The Worst That Could Happen To Star Wars? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin-Necrosis+Jul 31 2004, 11:17 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Necrosis @ Jul 31 2004, 11:17 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I can just imagine Lucas playing Kotor and yelling at everyone to redo it from scratch to match The Vision. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Except instead of redoing it from scratch, he's fixing the bugs and upgrading the graphics. And he doesn't yell at people for no reason. He's a shy person.
Yes, big square blocks around anything flying in space, the bounty hunters always shoot first, when people dodge fire their head jerks unnaturally, the new CGI rendered characters look less believable than the 2 decades old muppet, and everyone's being told off for making lightsaber noises.
Yeah, improvements, every one.
BTW, I wonder who would turn round to Lucas on set these days and tell him that "George, you can type this @?!#, but you sure can't say it''. This is what happens when people achieve some sort of quasi godhood.
Lets just look at the evolution of improvements.
Star Wars - nice Empire Strikes Back -best Return of the Jedi - Ewoks, and a musical number.
"Enhanced" Special Editions - SW - Greedo. CGI Jabba. Droids bashing each other. ESB - SAFE! RotJ - Bigger, more stupid musical number. Burping toad.
Ep 1 - Binks. Anakin. More comedy robots. Shoot me. CGI Yoda Ep 2 - Lacklustre wobbly plot and dialogue. Key duel consisting of flashy lights in pitch darkness. Wooo.
<!--QuoteBegin-Necrosis+Jul 31 2004, 07:55 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Necrosis @ Jul 31 2004, 07:55 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> ...the new CGI rendered characters look less believable than the 2 decades old muppet, and everyone's being told off for making lightsaber noises.
...
"Enhanced" Special Editions - SW - Greedo. CGI Jabba. Droids bashing each other. ESB - SAFE! RotJ - Bigger, more stupid musical number. Burping toad. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> First of all, give me an example of how the CGI Yoda looks less real than the puppet Yoda. Is it the fact that you can't tell where concessions were made to hide the puppeteer? Is it the way his face actually moves when he talks? Also, the burping toad in the RotJ special edition was there before. Watch the orignals again.
Original RotJ - Musical number. Ewoks. Burping toad. Burping Sarlacc.
SE RotJ - Bigger, dumber musical number. EXTRA ADDED JABBA BURP.
I'm sorry this minor technical error rolled past the censors. Oh and I *will* be sure to watch the original trilogy again, mostly because I'll need to in order to get the taste of the SUPER NEW EVEN MORE ENHANCED DVD releases out of my mouth.
Second, the muppet at least had proper colouring on its body, shadows were in the right place, and it wasn't bizarrely highlighted. It didn't move about much but then it's meant to be an alien so its something you can accept. I'd rather trade off a static but still brilliant performance (it worked for several seasons in the Muppet show, you know) against a poorly conceived CGI blob which looked like a very old Mark Hamill.
Still, there's bound to be another few years of life in Lucas yet, perhaps he'll cough out ANOTHER special special special edition, or better yet sell the franchise to his kids so they can release a special special special special edition of what Dad wanted in his film but couldn't do in his lifetime.
Jebite, worshipping the original trilogy to the point that you think a puppet Yoda is better than a CGI rendered Yoda.....I mean cmon. Let's see a puppet do that lightsaber duel scene. Note that Lucas hasn't taken anything away from the originals, just added some stuff in. Some things like the change in Anakin's ghost kinda rubbed me the wrong way, but I realized that I'd rather have 6 episodes that flowed together rather than 2 groups of disjointed movies.
Necrosis, what's with the spacing between paragraphs?!
If you hate the new versions so much, pretend they don't exist. Ignore them. Buy the original, unedited versions. It's just a movie in the end, and it won't affect your day to day life. If it does, you need to get outside. Now.
IT DOES AFFECT MY DAY TO DAY LIFE, I'M A CHARACTER IN THE FILMS AND THEY MIGHT REWRITE ME.
You need to go outside and get some air Medhead, you take things far too seriously. Especially when you're posting in a thread in defence of something which to you is "just a movie". I mean there's better ways of wasting your time. Bowls, for one. Its full of old, slow moving people rolling balls at other balls. Perhaps you could try that. I hear its good for hand eye coordination as well as socialising.
Necrosis, what are you on that allows you to make posts moaning about how George Lucas is ruining the movies, and then when challenged respond with "oh, I wasn't serious!" You've written multiple posts here ranting - yes, <b>ranting</b> about how the movies shouldn't be changed, and that the changes are horrible, on and on and on. But you're just fooling about all that, right?
I'm thinking Tycho was right - those English courses taught you nothing, because you can't convey your true emotion in your posts.
<!--QuoteBegin-5kyh16h91+Aug 1 2004, 09:26 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (5kyh16h91 @ Aug 1 2004, 09:26 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Jebite, worshipping the original trilogy to the point that you think a puppet Yoda is better than a CGI rendered Yoda.....I mean cmon. Let's see a puppet do that lightsaber duel scene. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> You mean the one that made me fall off my couch laughing because it was so stupid?
<!--QuoteBegin-5kyh16h91+Aug 2 2004, 01:26 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (5kyh16h91 @ Aug 2 2004, 01:26 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Jebite, worshipping the original trilogy to the point that you think a puppet Yoda is better than a CGI rendered Yoda.....I mean cmon. Let's see a puppet do that lightsaber duel scene. Note that Lucas hasn't taken anything away from the originals, just added some stuff in. Some things like the change in Anakin's ghost kinda rubbed me the wrong way, but I realized that I'd rather have 6 episodes that flowed together rather than 2 groups of disjointed movies. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Imagine Transformers The Movie. Incredibly awesome film Now imagine George Lucas gets his hands on it. All the Gen1 Transformers are replaced with whatever retarded new ones they have (Armada?) The Matrix of Leadership is replaced with a walkie talkie.
It's not whether or not George Lucas is justified in re-producing Star Wars or that it's his right to do so, it's a matter of him raining copious amounts of s*** upon people's childhood memories and not even having the common courtesy of releasing 2 versions of The Trilogy.
...... what Star Wars fan who cares enough about the original version <u>doesn't</u> own it on VHS? So if you own it, then there's really no point (financially) in him releasing something that only half of his prospective audience would buy. Sad at it is, it just wouldn't be cost-effective for him to release two versions of the thing, or even to sell them together.
He <i>should</i> include the originals of changed scenes as extras on the DVD though.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->He <i>should</i> include the changed scenes of the originals as extras on the DVD though.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Fixed.
What's the point of owning it on VHS? The tapes would probably be worn out... DVD = Constant quality (Unless you scratch the discs like an idiot)
coilAmateur pirate. Professional monkey. All pance.Join Date: 2002-04-12Member: 424Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor
skyhigh: CG is *not* up to par with practical effects yet (one exception: Gollum, but he's a special case*).
Allow me to draw comparisons for you:
1) Jurassic Park. Spielberg originally wanted to use stop-motion miniatures for the dinosaur effects, but a demonstration of a skeletal flock of gallimimus changed his mind and he agreed to CG. However, there were still practical, full sized, fully articulated puppets for all the "hero" dinosaurs - four raptors, the T-rex, and the Trike (they also made a baby trike that was cut from the film). The T-rex in the rain sequence was terrifying because it was really there.
2) Farscape (Sci-fi original series). TONS of practical effects. Nearly every alien, even some of the extremely non-humanoid ones, was puppetry (guy in a suit, others off-stage, etc). The only CG effects were when they simply couldn't get away with or afford a practical effect instead. Two main characters, Rigel and Pilot, were extremely complex puppets -- Rygel required 2-5 puppeteers, and Pilot as many as seven or more (I couldn't find exact numbers for him).
3) Episodes 1 and 2. Lucas used CG practically everywhere he could. Real characters talking to CG ones; Jar Jar Binks, Yoda, and more. Two points really stick in my mind. The first is Obi Wan and Yoda (and I think Mace Windu) walking along a palisade. Yoda is riding in his little hoverchair in all his CG "splendor"... but the real winner is the background, which is entirely fabricated. And looks it. The second is Senator Palpatine's receiving chamber, which makes several appearances in Episode 2. There is an entire hallway off of the chamber that does not actually exist. Are you telling me Lucas couldn't spend the $$ to finish his sets? It DOESN'T LOOK REAL, and it drags you kicking and screaming from the suspension of disbelief that is necessary for any movie, especially a space opera.
*Why did Gollum work? Three reasons. First, CG has advanced a great deal even in the interval between Ep2 and Two Towers (Also, Weta did an amazing job). Secondly, in nearly every Gollum scene, the CG Gollum was painted over Andy Serkis's actual, real performance. Serkis bounded around the sets/landscapes in a green unitard, BEING Gollum. When Gollum jumped Sam and Frodo threatened him with Sting -- that was Andy Serkis. When Gollum dragged Frodo from the marsh -- that was Andy Serkis. The animators went frame by frame, removing Serkis and adding in Gollum. Lastly, they used *extensive* motion capture for Gollum's movements, based on Serkis himself.
The point is that while Gollum is a fully CG character, his physical presence in the film was quite real. By comparison, the only thing that made Obi Wan's diner conversation with the short-order cook convincing was the sheer strength of Ewan McGregor's acting. And there was nothing to save the CG-glow that made Jar Jar and Yoda seem so glaringly out of place when a puppet would have been real, and tangible, and believable.
The CG-vs-practical debate is just one of many, many glaring problems with both the new trilogy and Lucas' revisitation upon the original three. Simply put, Lucas doesn't know what he's doing.
Comments
Indiana....... let it go....
Wise words that should be applied to anyone reaching for the "definitive" Star Wars experience. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Or just go play KOTOR.
I don't think you'd want time to learn English <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo-->
KOTOR was nice. Watching someone play it was like watching another Star Wars movie.
I think you should go back to english class and pay attention this time round.
<a href='http://makelove.ytmnd.com/' target='_blank'>this is</a>
Jesus, what was wrong with Mark Hammil? <_<
Except instead of redoing it from scratch, he's fixing the bugs and upgrading the graphics. And he doesn't yell at people for no reason. He's a shy person.
"upgrading the graphics"
Yes, big square blocks around anything flying in space, the bounty hunters always shoot first, when people dodge fire their head jerks unnaturally, the new CGI rendered characters look less believable than the 2 decades old muppet, and everyone's being told off for making lightsaber noises.
Yeah, improvements, every one.
BTW, I wonder who would turn round to Lucas on set these days and tell him that "George, you can type this @?!#, but you sure can't say it''. This is what happens when people achieve some sort of quasi godhood.
Lets just look at the evolution of improvements.
Star Wars - nice
Empire Strikes Back -best
Return of the Jedi - Ewoks, and a musical number.
"Enhanced" Special Editions -
SW - Greedo. CGI Jabba. Droids bashing each other.
ESB - SAFE!
RotJ - Bigger, more stupid musical number. Burping toad.
Ep 1 - Binks. Anakin. More comedy robots. Shoot me. CGI Yoda
Ep 2 - Lacklustre wobbly plot and dialogue. Key duel consisting of flashy lights in pitch darkness. Wooo.
And now the EVEN MORE ENHANCED SPECIAL EDITIONS.
Oh yeah, improvements every time.
Are you insinuating its not? Because I thought that......oh..... <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Are you insinuating its not? Because I thought that......oh..... <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
For you, it's the Motherland that is life, remember?
Are you insinuating its not? Because I thought that......oh..... <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
For you, it's the Motherland that is life, remember? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
LOL <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo-->
*salutes CWAG
Which reminds me, have to finish those Communist TSA marines.
...
"Enhanced" Special Editions -
SW - Greedo. CGI Jabba. Droids bashing each other.
ESB - SAFE!
RotJ - Bigger, more stupid musical number. Burping toad.
<!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
First of all, give me an example of how the CGI Yoda looks less real than the puppet Yoda. Is it the fact that you can't tell where concessions were made to hide the puppeteer? Is it the way his face actually moves when he talks? Also, the burping toad in the RotJ special edition was there before. Watch the orignals again.
Original RotJ - Musical number. Ewoks. Burping toad. Burping Sarlacc.
SE RotJ - Bigger, dumber musical number. EXTRA ADDED JABBA BURP.
I'm sorry this minor technical error rolled past the censors. Oh and I *will* be sure to watch the original trilogy again, mostly because I'll need to in order to get the taste of the SUPER NEW EVEN MORE ENHANCED DVD releases out of my mouth.
Second, the muppet at least had proper colouring on its body, shadows were in the right place, and it wasn't bizarrely highlighted. It didn't move about much but then it's meant to be an alien so its something you can accept. I'd rather trade off a static but still brilliant performance (it worked for several seasons in the Muppet show, you know) against a poorly conceived CGI blob which looked like a very old Mark Hamill.
Still, there's bound to be another few years of life in Lucas yet, perhaps he'll cough out ANOTHER special special special edition, or better yet sell the franchise to his kids so they can release a special special special special edition of what Dad wanted in his film but couldn't do in his lifetime.
I'm sure we're all waiting for that one too.
If you hate the new versions so much, pretend they don't exist. Ignore them. Buy the original, unedited versions. It's just a movie in the end, and it won't affect your day to day life. If it does, you need to get outside. Now.
IT DOES AFFECT MY DAY TO DAY LIFE, I'M A CHARACTER IN THE FILMS AND THEY MIGHT REWRITE ME.
You need to go outside and get some air Medhead, you take things far too seriously. Especially when you're posting in a thread in defence of something which to you is "just a movie". I mean there's better ways of wasting your time. Bowls, for one. Its full of old, slow moving people rolling balls at other balls. Perhaps you could try that. I hear its good for hand eye coordination as well as socialising.
I'm thinking Tycho was right - those English courses taught you nothing, because you can't convey your true emotion in your posts.
You mean the one that made me fall off my couch laughing because it was so stupid?
I mean, it's science fiction. And it's Star Wars.
Imagine Transformers The Movie. Incredibly awesome film
Now imagine George Lucas gets his hands on it.
All the Gen1 Transformers are replaced with whatever retarded new ones they have (Armada?)
The Matrix of Leadership is replaced with a walkie talkie.
It's not whether or not George Lucas is justified in re-producing Star Wars or that it's his right to do so, it's a matter of him raining copious amounts of s*** upon people's childhood memories and not even having the common courtesy of releasing 2 versions of The Trilogy.
what Star Wars fan who cares enough about the original version <u>doesn't</u> own it on VHS? So if you own it, then there's really no point (financially) in him releasing something that only half of his prospective audience would buy. Sad at it is, it just wouldn't be cost-effective for him to release two versions of the thing, or even to sell them together.
He <i>should</i> include the originals of changed scenes as extras on the DVD though.
Fixed.
What's the point of owning it on VHS? The tapes would probably be worn out...
DVD = Constant quality (Unless you scratch the discs like an idiot)
Allow me to draw comparisons for you:
1) Jurassic Park. Spielberg originally wanted to use stop-motion miniatures for the dinosaur effects, but a demonstration of a skeletal flock of gallimimus changed his mind and he agreed to CG. However, there were still practical, full sized, fully articulated puppets for all the "hero" dinosaurs - four raptors, the T-rex, and the Trike (they also made a baby trike that was cut from the film). The T-rex in the rain sequence was terrifying because it was really there.
2) Farscape (Sci-fi original series). TONS of practical effects. Nearly every alien, even some of the extremely non-humanoid ones, was puppetry (guy in a suit, others off-stage, etc). The only CG effects were when they simply couldn't get away with or afford a practical effect instead. Two main characters, Rigel and Pilot, were extremely complex puppets -- Rygel required 2-5 puppeteers, and Pilot as many as seven or more (I couldn't find exact numbers for him).
3) Episodes 1 and 2. Lucas used CG practically everywhere he could. Real characters talking to CG ones; Jar Jar Binks, Yoda, and more. Two points really stick in my mind. The first is Obi Wan and Yoda (and I think Mace Windu) walking along a palisade. Yoda is riding in his little hoverchair in all his CG "splendor"... but the real winner is the background, which is entirely fabricated. And looks it. The second is Senator Palpatine's receiving chamber, which makes several appearances in Episode 2. There is an entire hallway off of the chamber that does not actually exist. Are you telling me Lucas couldn't spend the $$ to finish his sets? It DOESN'T LOOK REAL, and it drags you kicking and screaming from the suspension of disbelief that is necessary for any movie, especially a space opera.
*Why did Gollum work? Three reasons. First, CG has advanced a great deal even in the interval between Ep2 and Two Towers (Also, Weta did an amazing job). Secondly, in nearly every Gollum scene, the CG Gollum was painted over Andy Serkis's actual, real performance. Serkis bounded around the sets/landscapes in a green unitard, BEING Gollum. When Gollum jumped Sam and Frodo threatened him with Sting -- that was Andy Serkis. When Gollum dragged Frodo from the marsh -- that was Andy Serkis. The animators went frame by frame, removing Serkis and adding in Gollum. Lastly, they used *extensive* motion capture for Gollum's movements, based on Serkis himself.
The point is that while Gollum is a fully CG character, his physical presence in the film was quite real. By comparison, the only thing that made Obi Wan's diner conversation with the short-order cook convincing was the sheer strength of Ewan McGregor's acting. And there was nothing to save the CG-glow that made Jar Jar and Yoda seem so glaringly out of place when a puppet would have been real, and tangible, and believable.
The CG-vs-practical debate is just one of many, many glaring problems with both the new trilogy and Lucas' revisitation upon the original three. Simply put, Lucas doesn't know what he's doing.