Forlorn, I have a shotgun. We play a game, and midway through the first two minutes, I blow your head off with a shotgun. I say its a matter of winning or losing. Excessive?
I am NOT talking about whining noobs, I'm talking about people playing at an acceptable skill level who have their balance destroyed by a better player. If I'd joined an inferior gaming league and easily thrashed all comers then rather than encourage everyone to play I would instead be driving them away. AGAIN, there is a difference between losing and getting destroyed. Most gamers enjoy close matches where there's a bit of a struggle before a big rush and then a win. If you're midway through an epic battle for the third hive, and a new player comes in and promptly annihilates the entire marine team, then single handedly rushes MS and cleans it out, then said person is going to annoy the people who've been having *fun* for the past few minutes.
In tabletop gaming it was the difference between fun play and competitive play. Some people played with an "in character" army, while others decided to use power combos. Each group did NOT get on, and in fact still don't get on. They only exist because of segregation and when they meet its on a neutral set of rules.
Take this across to NS, you can see the same concept. People playing for a fun RELAXING challenge, and people playing to WIN to get acclaim, or free graphics cards, or booth babes, or something to make themselves feel better after being beaten up in school. Whatever.
Newbies whine, but vets also whine. Everyone whines at some point, so lets try and keep it within a certain context. Vets whine if their killer strat becomes useless, vets whine if the game gets moved towards "the noobs", vets whine if the other team finds an exploit they didn't think of first, EVERYONE WHINES. What I am trying to illustrate is the two VASTLY DIFFERENT play styles. Pub style, for fun and relaxation, and clan play, for the competitive WIN. I enjoy a good hard fought game of NS on a pub, its relaxing, you can slack a bit, and it gets the old heart moving. Its not a life and death "win or die maaaan" competition.
As I said earlier, a lot of clanners are fine people, they can smurf with a bit of restraint, and they don't become total smacktards on pubs. Its the MINORITY which causes problems. They're like kids with a new toy - they have to poke everyone with it. "OMG I CAN BLINKBHOPSLASH, NOW 2 PWN TEH NOOBS". You have to grow out of that mentality, and sadly some clanners can't. And this minority is what is becoming the face of the NS clan scene. Clans need to think about how they can change this.
Playing for fun, and playing to win.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> If good clanners aren't supposed to pub, where are they supposed to play NS Necrosis...? They can't only play in scrims, and it's not fair to banish them from pubs because they are 'too good'. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Nad, pay attention man COME ON. I didn't say anyone isn't supposed to be in pubs - good clanners can pub, the same way I can play a lower ranking tabletop gamer. I've said it in this and other threads - you dumb down your game, or you try a new strat. If you can't dumb down your game, or don't want to lose your edge, then add in "rules" to your game - ie you'll only fade in the corridors between X and Y, or this round you're going to kill every 3rd marine from your cloaking ambush spot. Whatever you want. That way you can get the decent gaming you want and not remove the enjoyment for others. If people wanted to try and smoke an army of uberfades then they'll join a pug or a clan - pubs are for casual gaming.
From the clanners viewpoint, doesn't it get a bit dull when you're romping through marines and you're only dying out of lucky shots? Where's the enjoyment or challenge in that? Why not load up some bots and slaughter them instad?
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> why tell the good people to stop playing ns <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Who said that, Apollo? Cmon, tell me, who said it? Read the full posts, don't read the second or third hand comments about them. I've already said several times now that there's a difference between losing and getting destroyed. You've a favourite pub server, does it occur to you that because they're used to you they know what to expect and hence don't complain? Or perhaps you're a decent enough person? I'm talking about a dedicated minority of smacktards ruining what clans should stand for.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I'm sorry you happen to be one of the pubbers i kill all the time <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And people wonder why noone joins clans? This is it folks, dumb hostile comments with no logical basis, lobbed into posts. I'm sorry if my comments about smacktards who get their jollies off defeating easy opponents got to you, lmao.
Read the posts fully folks, all I'm saying is that both sides need to appreciate why the other is playing. I've said it in several threads now - if I'm in a server full of tags then I realise I'm going to have to put my game face on, but if you're in a server full of average players then you're going to have to accept that they really don't want or need 1 player trying to win the game singlehanded because he/she is bored and the rest of their friends are out socialising.
LOL grendel I got the perfect solution.. Add WW2 guns and use the theme of WW2 soldiers caught in some vortex to the next dimension crap and have WW2 soldiers battle aliens LOLLER
<!--QuoteBegin-jdub17+Jun 26 2004, 04:43 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (jdub17 @ Jun 26 2004, 04:43 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> LOL grendel I got the perfect solution.. Add WW2 guns and use the theme of WW2 soldiers caught in some vortex to the next dimension crap and have WW2 soldiers battle aliens LOLLER <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> so freaking true, how many more **** **** realistic/ww2 games do we need? Ugh.
<!--QuoteBegin-e.Nadagast+Jun 27 2004, 01:52 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (e.Nadagast @ Jun 27 2004, 01:52 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-jdub17+Jun 26 2004, 04:43 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (jdub17 @ Jun 26 2004, 04:43 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> LOL grendel I got the perfect solution.. Add WW2 guns and use the theme of WW2 soldiers caught in some vortex to the next dimension crap and have WW2 soldiers battle aliens LOLLER <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> so freaking true, how many more **** **** realistic/ww2 games do we need? Ugh. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> about -10 <!--emo&::nerdy::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/nerd.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='nerd.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Sarisel.::' ( O ) ';:-. .-.:;' ( O ) '::.Join Date: 2003-07-30Member: 18557Members, Constellation
... Don't you get it? The NS competitive community is way too small. Therefore, the competitive players play with the "fun seeking" pubbers, because there is nobody else to play with half of the time. In CS, you can scrim 24/7 if you wanted to. Here, the closest thing you have to that is #nspug - where once again, the playerbase is still small compared to CS and, in a game that is more complex than CS, not knowing your team-mates makes playing that much more stressful. So, for either this or other reasons, competitive players go and play in pubs. The skill gap is so huge that often either the comeptitive players leave out of frustration (because they can't do anything) or the pubbers start complaining and grieving because their fun is being ruined (when the clanner makes a world of a difference). Often it gets even worse than that.
The competitive scene, even though it is getting much more promotion than before through ampednews.com, is still not getting nearly enough promotion that serious players can completely segregate themselves from playing in pubs. There isn't much glory in being at the top of the NS clan scene, because there's such a limit on competition. That limit in turn severely limits where competitive players can go to do what they enjoy doing. What happens if you're at the top? You don't get prizes, you don't get money, you hardly even get recognized by the rest of the community. If anything, you get banned for no reason or scrutinized for cheating(remember #cri.mosis?).
Think of it in terms of a certain game in which you gain experience and ranking. Ideally, the best would play with the best and the lesser skilled would have fun in their own little way. If the lesser skilled wanted to learn, they'd go and do some research, approach the skilled, observe, and then practice. They'd develop into good players and work their way up to play with the best. In NS's case, there isn't much place for the best to play with the best.
In North America, there are only 4 or 5 clans that scrim frequently (last time I checked, now it might be less). Often, #nspug is just as 'fun' as playing pub games - except that #nspug is competitive play gone wrong, where there's either stacking (and random picking can stack teams just as easily, just not deliberately) or simply a poor level of communication and teamwork between players. It's not the same as playing with people that you actually know and can connect with. So, pugging or pubbing is what competitive players do to spend their NS time. Of course, not many pubbers will appreciate this. The competitive players don't appreciate the level of abusive communication that they often have to deal with on pub servers, so hud_showtext 0 and voice_scale 0, and possibly auth and a smurf name (which doesn't help that much anyway). And there you have it - your unresponsive 'fun killer', who often gets kicked/banned when pub server 'champs' can't believe that there's someone out there that's better than them.
Now, since pubs are so annoying to play in, and there is really no way to spend time playing in a serious competitive environment, one of two things happen. 1. The competitive player quits and goes to play another game, which actually features a good competitive playerbase. 2. The competitive player becomes bitter and plays for the thrill of 'ruining' the fun of the 'pubbers' that persecute him and ruin his way of playing the game that he loves. Every ban and kick is something to brag about, every sorry crying scrub's comments get quoted. Is this a mean thing to do? Maybe, but now you know how it happens.
I'd like to reinforce Swift Idiot's original post that, yes indeed, the clan community made its own bed.
But
1. NS is a very complex game. 2. New releases aren't released very often. And you KNOW the last patch was hardly revolutionary.
Constant dev team activity, as well as the basic simplicity of the game, helped Counter-strike continually gain players during its beta stages. NS, I would say, is just too ambitious of a game to succeed as a mainstream Steam-MyGames-Menu game. Why?
Natural Selection's *full* potential is only realized through competitive gaming - this is an absolute fact. I realize most pubbers don't play to compete, rather they play just to have fun. But watching pubbers play is both hilarious and depressing. If you have invested the many many hours into competitive play, you will especially appreciate and recognize the level of ineptitude (there really is no other word for it) that the average pub team operates at. In any case, I'm off topic.
NS is not a great casual game. It's hard for people to get hooked after the first game. It's even harder for people to want to seek out a team and invest thought and time into competition. Public play is constantly wrought with nubs who are *ripped* by their team if they don't go along with the gameplan. This is not a "pug" phenomenom, or a competitive-community trait - it's the level of teamwork that the game demands. But the level of teamwork required in NS will inevitably make the game less attractive to the majority of casual players.
CS: Nub will forget to plant the bomb. Will cost the team one round, out of the 40,000 that they may play. NS: Nub will build sensory, spam ocs early game, <insert nub action here>. Will cost the team the entire game. Many people will leave/f4 immediately. If not, team is subjected to 30 minutes of spawning, leaving base/hive, dying, spawncamp, <insert undesirable action here>
CS: Nub makes poor strategical decision, walks into fire, dies. Team doesn't have to worry about him crossing line of fire. Team doesn't say "oh man if that nub wasn't on our team we could've won." Team has an excellent chance of winning with the nub as spectator - probably a better chance than with him on the field. NS: Nub makes poor strategical decision. Drops team's second hive across the map with no protection. Costs the team the game. Gets ripped on by his team. Probably gets laughed at by the other team. I'm SURE we've all seen the vote-kick on the player who "fouled up the game".
Basically, to be a functional member of a team, "nub" needs a significant amount of experience with the game. Most of these nubs will be put-off by this. A few will continue to play.
On a good side, the average NS player is typically more patient, intelligent, clever, understanding than the average CS player - mainly because NS requires those traits in order to appreciate the game. The flip side, of course, is the sad, sad, sad, player count.
I would not be surprised to see NS at only a slightly lower player/server count a year from now. It really is a beautiful game, and certain minds will come across it and continue to appreciate it. And perhaps, with patience, the NS community will become a rare gem in gaming - a game where 95% of the players are involved in competitive play or something magical like that.
But yeah, there definitely exists two different camps that are very politically divided, even when the skill differences are blurred. The impetus, however, belongs to the competitive community to actively communicate, train, instruct, be-not-jerks to the little people. Examples must be set, people must WANT to be involved, and clanners must not let prejudices in differences of strategies or clan names/history dictate their behaviors. The clan community, on the whole, is not interested in creating opportunities for new players to learn and succeed - nub clans usually exercise the same poor judgement longer than is healthy, and the chance for a skilled/talented (but unknown) player to really experience true teamwork and strategy is hindered (and in some cases denied) by the simple fact that they are unknown.
Thus, there is an excessive amount of political ladder climbing before potential-player X or new-team Y will ever play a real, co-ordinated, mistake-free, organized game of competitive NS. Either newer clans need to be taught how to play the game, or players need to be more fairly evaluated - a large amount of otherwise skillful and intelligent players are being excluded from this "club" of real competitive clans. It's like asking the scout team to play against the starting lineup. Both teams are better than most, but the former team lacks the information and training required to compete fairly. But in the case of NS, both the information and training are denied, or otherwise unavailable for newer teams.
Anyhow, NS is *the* finest example of a team-based game I have seen, and I sincerely hope for its future survival. Pubbers are open-minded, but remain intimidated by the actions (and lack of actions) clanners make. Step one involves a heavy amount of "community service work". The original NSDraft had the right idea, but clan leaders were unable to commit themselves to this 'charity' team. It just may take a dissolution of current teams to create new-team leaders to save this precious competitive community. But I have yet to see (myself included) one example of a team/team member giving up winning in order to effect this.
So yeah, if you skipped to the end of this:
o) Quit your CAL-Gamma team and . . . o) Lead an NSDraft team. o) Teach people how to play the game. o) Ignore the lack of direction in this forum post. But read it.
Otherwise, the competitive community will indeed die.
The NS team needs to become very active, almost instantly if they want to save the game.
One viable way that they could do it. Make the game playable for nubs. Ok this is going to affect the rest of the Competitive players, but guys, if you want to play scrims/pcw's then these nubs have to make clans.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->NS: Nub will build sensory, spam ocs early game, <insert nub action here>. Will cost the team the entire game. Many people will leave/f4 immediately<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> - Go on a server with Unchained mod on it, then the SC wont matter. Nubs coming into the game is the only thing going to make NS viable in the future. If no more players come into NS, you might as well delete it off your steam list.
So the end point is.... Does the NS team want to see its game fail, so early in its lifestyle, or will Flayra come back and want to rescue it.... its their decision.
Sarisel.::' ( O ) ';:-. .-.:;' ( O ) '::.Join Date: 2003-07-30Member: 18557Members, Constellation
<!--QuoteBegin-Jas0+Jun 27 2004, 07:32 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Jas0 @ Jun 27 2004, 07:32 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> So the end point is.... Does the NS team want to see its game fail, so early in its lifestyle, or will Flayra come back and want to rescue it.... its their decision. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> If I were Flayra, I'd call it quits and work on the new project instead. With HL2 and Doom3 coming out, HL mods will lose much of their playerbases.
<!--QuoteBegin-Jas0+Jun 26 2004, 11:21 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Jas0 @ Jun 26 2004, 11:21 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Hmm Interesting post so far.
As an alternative to CAL, I am the owner UKNSL [#uknsl on Q Net][ <a href='http://www.uknsl.burstfire.net' target='_blank'>UKNSL</a>] . UKNSL Is renound for being the best league however not finishing seasons due to the old heads not having time. However now i have stepped in. UKNSL is an alternative to Clanbase, i was asked to run it because people pmed me on IRC saying they hated CB NS so could i start UKNSL, so i did.
Started UKNSL, with sponsership from Burstfire.net for gameservers for the matches to be played on. However these were underpreforming due to the CPU extensiveness on the servers.
Within the first week of starting the league, 3 clans had split. Great.... Nice way to start a league i thought. =/
We are now into the second week, with another 2 clans seeming like they have folded. Therefore things are slowly shrinking. We only did a small season, because we just wanted to raise awareness that we are back. However with the carry on of the EU Clans folding, it appears we are not going to be around for a second season as things in the EU rapidly deteriorate.
My insite to why things aint working : 1. NS Is far too costly on clans. Clanservers for NS are 4 times the price of CS Ones, as it is CPU instensive. 2. Players arent coming because you need a decent computer to run the game itself, as laggy conditions aint the best to play under at all. 3. The competitive side of NS has just turned into bitchyness. Clans all thinking their the best, and therefore being cocky and arrogant about thing, meaning people dont sit around long, as the community generally isnt nice. Thats my insite to the EU side of things, and why it is failing. I dont go on GameSurge and go to the american clans rooms, therefore i know nothing about them.
Jas [UKNSL Head Admin, Jason@ukns.org #UKNSL on Qnet] <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> that is probably the most truthful and correct thing i've ever heard you say. it's too damn true. less ego, more fun - i say.
<!--QuoteBegin-jdub17+Jun 26 2004, 07:43 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (jdub17 @ Jun 26 2004, 07:43 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> LOL grendel I got the perfect solution.. Add WW2 guns and use the theme of WW2 soldiers caught in some vortex to the next dimension crap and have WW2 soldiers battle aliens LOLLER <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> i would actually play this.
<!--QuoteBegin-Sarisel+Jun 27 2004, 01:32 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Sarisel @ Jun 27 2004, 01:32 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> -== The Truth Snipped Out to Save Space==-
Now, since pubs are so annoying to play in, and there is really no way to spend time playing in a serious competitive environment, one of two things happen. 1. The competitive player quits and goes to play another game, which actually features a good competitive playerbase. 2. The competitive player becomes bitter and plays for the thrill of 'ruining' the fun of the 'pubbers' that persecute him and ruin his way of playing the game that he loves. Every ban and kick is something to brag about, every sorry crying scrub's comments get quoted. Is this a mean thing to do? Maybe, but now you know how it happens. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Very well done. You responded perfectly to Necrosis.
One thing you forgot, the clanner type "3."
3. The clanner who enjoys the game, pubs because he just doesn't care what other people in an online community think of him, and goes around killing crap on servers. This clanner realizes how POINTLESS all of his actions are, no matter how right he/she may be, yet continues to tell people the right things, how the game must be changed/balanced, and are ultimately ignored.
Sadly, out of all the new PT's chosen there were only about, say, 5 of these types of clanners picked. (Which would explain how 40 PT's can even hold one playtest <!--emo&:0--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wow.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wow.gif' /><!--endemo--> )
Well, to be brutally honest, clanner group 1 made the best decision. He moved to a different situation where he could have fun without persecuting others.
Clanner 2 is your stereotypical clanner smacktard who is killing the community.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> 3. The clanner who enjoys the game, pubs because he just doesn't care what other people in an online community think of him, and goes around killing crap on servers. This clanner realizes how POINTLESS all of his actions are, no matter how right he/she may be, yet continues to tell people the right things, how the game must be changed/balanced, and are ultimately ignored. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Type 3 is just Type 2 but spends time on the forums.
I will note with some relish that noone has listed the clanner who makes time for the nubs and helps them improve their game so that they can join his clan or be more worthy opponents. However I am sure these people exist.
As a rebuttal, if your only thrill in the game is ruining other people's games then why play? Why not download some hacks and really go to town on them? Honestly, if you enjoy destroying people's games because you're bored, then just clear off and leave the community in peace.
Sarisel.::' ( O ) ';:-. .-.:;' ( O ) '::.Join Date: 2003-07-30Member: 18557Members, Constellation
edited June 2004
<!--QuoteBegin-Forlorn+Jun 27 2004, 12:36 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Forlorn @ Jun 27 2004, 12:36 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> One thing you forgot, the clanner type "3."
3. The clanner who enjoys the game, pubs because he just doesn't care what other people in an online community think of him, and goes around killing crap on servers. This clanner realizes how POINTLESS all of his actions are, no matter how right he/she may be, yet continues to tell people the right things, how the game must be changed/balanced, and are ultimately ignored.
Sadly, out of all the new PT's chosen there were only about, say, 5 of these types of clanners picked. (Which would explain how 40 PT's can even hold one playtest <!--emo&:0--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wow.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wow.gif' /><!--endemo--> ) <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Clanner type 3 becomes either 1 or 2. What you described is pretty much what happens before the split occurs. It is true though and sadly ironic that the people who play the game the most (with the most experience and knowledge) are listened to the least.
"I will note with some relish that noone has listed the clanner who makes time for the nubs and helps them improve their game so that they can join his clan or be more worthy opponents. However I am sure these people exist."
This is pretty much the same - before it comes to the point where clanners get so frustrated that they either quit or snap, you can either have clanners who care to try and help people improve in their games - or clanners that care about the game but don't waste time preaching into the wind. Just out of curiosity, how often do you think the 'nubs' actually listen anyway to the advice they get?
And the thrill of beating somebody with pure skill is actually rewarding - while beating somebody with 'hacks' (true defined hacks) is for the weak-hearted.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Just out of curiosity, how often do you think the 'nubs' actually listen anyway to the advice they get?
And the thrill of beating somebody with pure skill is actually rewarding - while beating somebody with 'hacks' (true defined hacks) is for the weak-hearted. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The thrill of beating the truly skill-less is non existent. Or so I've found when I've been in tournaments against all comers. Its rather disappointing.
Second, I think most players will actually listen up if its dispensed properly. There are ways of dispensing advice, from
"OK, lemme show you how to bhop, join this server *insert server here*"
to the always enjoyable
"OMG noob u ned to bhop teh win *insert server or random combination of bhop instructions*"
Some approaches do work better than others. A nice easy way is to boost someone's confidence then give them a server addy to dial into, where you can give them a bit of ad hoc training. IE "Hey, that was some good play, do you want to join my server to improve on that sometime?". Little things.
Yes, I know most of the players are going to suck horrendously, but at the same time the more that are trained up, the less smacktards there are.
<!--QuoteBegin-Raistlin666+Jun 25 2004, 03:52 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Raistlin666 @ Jun 25 2004, 03:52 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> For example my Clan plays about 5 Scrims per week against different Clans. Yes you heard right it is not always the same Clan <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> You never want to play us :-/
On topic though: jada, jada, jada. I wouldn't call the community inactive yet, as long as we manage to find 1 - 3 ns scrims a day I'd say things are fine. The only problem I see, is that we europeans don't have real active and serious leagues, with mature admins. The ESL didn't host a cup for ages, and all of their ladders are dead. The NSL started out quite good, but then their admins couldn't enforce their schedule; we for example had to wait for 3 weeks or something to even know who our opponent in the half finals is going to be, now we are trying to play the god damn match vs. torment for almost 2 weeks. The CB ladder is dead since 1.04 or something, the only thing that keeps that league alive is their cup. And then we have the reformed uknsl, which actually could have been a success, if not for immature admins. So that leaves us with CB & NSL, with both not being as active as one could hope.
Clanners are types now? I love the generalizations guys <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->. Keep up the good work. By the way, the original point of this thread was to discuss helping the clan community scene. From what I read its doing very little in this regard. Either get on topic or have nemisis lock it.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> even though i know its next to impossible but flayra needs to get back, and valve needs to release the source to him, and he needs to code ns for hl2<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I doubt this would happen :
Reasoning : Unknown Worlds, - Flayras company that he started, would probably just make a new game. What would be the old point in continuing a game which is already dying. Out with the old, in with the new.
Now Flayra has seen where NS has failed, he can hopefully make a new game, and therefore work in areas where NS failed. IE Fast Patches ect. It would be nice for some of us if NS carried on, however, talking to people today, has made me think, maybe its just time it should be the end of this saga.
Future release titles are going to be the ones to cripple NS. WOW (World of Warcraft), Half Life 2, Doom3, Medal Of Honour, ect. The state of NS at the minute, is where it cannot recover.
Could NS have just been a beta for Flayra, to see his game creation skill, and see why games fail..... so his future titles can be more successful... i now wonder...? Only Flayra himself knows.
It will be quite a while before NS dies. Look at the old classics, even today there are still people playing Quake, Starcraft C&c just to mention a few. Besides the only ones that will immeadietly switch over to teh omg so 1337 made by teh ph4t Gabe Newell (or was it nawell) wiz ze new CS:Source omgz0r are the CS-kids. Many of us mortals don't even have the system to run all the titles that are waiting around the corners. Maybe Doom3 will be an exception since id's titles have always been optimized to the max. << different story. <!--emo&::nerdy::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/nerd.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='nerd.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Pfeh, if the members of already existing clans cannot recruit, it is hardly the fault of general public. Get websites up, advertise it at the end of each match (while the scores are still visible), and lure them in. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif' /><!--endemo-->
NS, dying? Hardly. Right now, early on a Monday afternoon, there are 445 servers and 1679 players, just slightly below TFC. You guys really need to rethink your definition of a "dead" mod; just because it's not going to take the throne from CS doesn't mean it's even close to being dead. NS will fade from the public eye eventually, and who knows if there will be more patches after 3.0 is final, but it's not just going to die. I understand that the clanners out there consider it to be a dead mod when the competetive community slows down but do you understand how popular NS still is compared to the majority of online games?
Hell, I hope the community slows down in the near future. The older a game gets, the more dedicated its remaining players are. I'd be lying if I said I enjoyed the company of the average pubber, and even if the game never gets another new player(which obviously isn't the case) there are enough fans right now to sustain it for some time. Trust me, NS is not going to be dead any time soon.
<!--QuoteBegin-Niteowl+Jun 28 2004, 10:59 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Niteowl @ Jun 28 2004, 10:59 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> nec, i'll have your babies now, thanks <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yeah, nec is the man, I'm just gonna quit so you guys can have fun! Toodles!
Oh, wait! Now saraph has a point, I just remembered I'm a sadist, and I enjoy kicking the crap out of noobs with some hard earned skill!
Oh and NiteOwl, since your an NSGuide, remember not to forget to tell them an important part of NS is this:
"Okay, after you get good enough to understand the game, and if you like it, you can take it to the next level and play in clans! However, if you get too good to rise and meet the opposition, I want you to get lost because you ruin our games! NS has one of the best online communities around, and you being better than me is a BIG no no! Don't forget that! Buh bye now, time to help me to another newbie! Much love! "
Instead of handing out random flaming, why not read the posts. Who's saying you should quit? I'm only saying that people of a certain skill level in *clans* need to dumb their game down a little or control their play on the pubs. They should do this so that the pubbers lose their image of clanners as arrogant smacktards, and thus more pubbers will form/join clans.
Of course, anyone who's not in a clan is free to be as much as a smacktard as they want, since the pub community is hardly recruiting. The topic is what clans need to do to get people interested and involved.
I have to dumb down my game sometimes, its something most people do instinctively online AND offline. Unless you're the type of immature smacktard who brings their little cousin to the house, plays a game of chess against them, then when they inevitably lose you call them retarded and tell them to stop playing chess, OMG what are they doing in your house trying to play it, lololololol. There is a difference between losing and getting annihilated. If people lose, they can learn and adapt. If you thrash them then they'll learn very little, other than that you're an arrogant timewaster who's only joy is beating people who have no chance of beating you.
Not to sound repetitive, but I fully understand if some members of the community *need* to beat on less skilled players in order to make up for their shortcomings elsewhere (least skilled on the clan, so lets go online and "prove" I'm good by beating hordes of noobs, or the bad boy in school took my lunch money, I'm going to beat up noobs to show how powerful I am, haxor) but really this isn't conducive to putting a friendly face on clanning.
And as I have said in many other threads, if you can't play nice then start your own server with likeminded people, keep out unskilled players, and play people of your OWN calibre so that you can keep the same level of enjoyment without ruining the game for others.
Necrosis, where are all these clanenrs supposed to play together to avoid ruining the average NS game? It's incredibly hard to find scrims regularily because of the fading cla community, and even harder to round up 6 to scrim because the members have lost interest in the current version.
What you are doing is drawing even deeper divisions in the community, which will of course only lead to greater hostility. If you saw a top CS clanner join a public server, you would get nothing but respect even when he does thrash the whole server. It allows the lesser skilled players to keep in sight what to strive for, and hopefully it will keep them playing.
I'm not sure why NS is different, but it is only weakening the community. If newcomers want a place to learn the game, they should check on one of the newbie servers hanging around. Unless the rules say otherwise, a public server should be open to both those new to the game and the dedicated players.
Its not like clanners have fun playing to beat the less experienced. They just have fun playing.
<!--QuoteBegin-Keyser59+Jun 29 2004, 09:14 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Keyser59 @ Jun 29 2004, 09:14 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> If you saw a top CS clanner join a public server, you would get nothing but respect even when he does thrash the whole server. It allows the lesser skilled players to keep in sight what to strive for, and hopefully it will keep them playing. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> seems you never played cs <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif' /><!--endemo-->
What? If a well known CAL-I player joins a server, the rest of the players are awed by his presence. Thats only why you see people going around pubs claiming to be in CAL-I.
Thanks for assuming I've never played CS though, I appreciate it.
<!--QuoteBegin-Zephor+Jun 23 2004, 11:51 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Zephor @ Jun 23 2004, 11:51 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-e.Nadagast+Jun 23 2004, 08:43 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (e.Nadagast @ Jun 23 2004, 08:43 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> wow cam can you be more negative about clans? 99% of clanners are really nice guys. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I dont think I've ever seen a cal-gamma clan stop and give suggestions or congraduate the other team for a game. It is just GG and its over. Systemshock's first DOD match pretty much ended with a awesome guy pm me and telling me that we played a great game. After much conversation, he mentioned to us new places to hid and ways to improve and offered to scrim with us in the future. If I ever saw a gamma clan do that to a open team I would be impressed but it NEVER happens. This community has a few nice people but most of them are selfish ****. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> One could consider giving help without being asked for it arrogance. Which links to the whole "Elitist **** Vet Clanner" thing which people love to hate.
Offering advice when not asked is impolite and arrogant.
Sarisel.::' ( O ) ';:-. .-.:;' ( O ) '::.Join Date: 2003-07-30Member: 18557Members, Constellation
<!--QuoteBegin-Necrosis+Jun 29 2004, 08:48 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Necrosis @ Jun 29 2004, 08:48 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I'm only saying that people of a certain skill level in *clans* need to dumb their game down a little or control their play on the pubs. They should do this so that the pubbers lose their image of clanners as arrogant smacktards, and thus more pubbers will form/join clans. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> That is the most stupidest thing that I have ever heard.. "dumbing down" your game? So, by showing that you are on the same level of play as the average pub player, you expect that the pubbers will then all of a sudden want to form clans? If anything, it is a false illusion that gets shattered when they play other clans in real games. What happens then? They'll quit, because they cannot handle being beaten all of a sudden when they were on the same level as the clanners while playing on random.pub.server:27015.
As mentioned before, playing your best shows the level of play that pubbers should strive to achieve - and some of them are doing so gradually. If anything, that should give them a taste of the kind of competition there is at the top, so that they can work towards it. However, what usually happens is that the pubber clan cries h4x and refuses to scrim/play against clans that are better than them.
There is also a difference between going into a server with 5 year olds that spam turrets everywhere and going into a server where there is an average pub base. You talk about annihilation, but what exactly is that? Differentiation between 'getting beaten' and 'getting annihilated' is in the mind.. and until the average pubber decides that he was beaten, no progress is ever made. It is funny, because that's the first step that so many players never take - learning from getting beaten and adjusting their game appropriately.
<!--QuoteBegin-Forlorn+Jun 27 2004, 12:36 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Forlorn @ Jun 27 2004, 12:36 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Sarisel+Jun 27 2004, 01:32 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Sarisel @ Jun 27 2004, 01:32 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> -== The Truth Snipped Out to Save Space==-
Now, since pubs are so annoying to play in, and there is really no way to spend time playing in a serious competitive environment, one of two things happen. 1. The competitive player quits and goes to play another game, which actually features a good competitive playerbase. 2. The competitive player becomes bitter and plays for the thrill of 'ruining' the fun of the 'pubbers' that persecute him and ruin his way of playing the game that he loves. Every ban and kick is something to brag about, every sorry crying scrub's comments get quoted. Is this a mean thing to do? Maybe, but now you know how it happens. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Very well done. You responded perfectly to Necrosis.
One thing you forgot, the clanner type "3."
3. The clanner who enjoys the game, pubs because he just doesn't care what other people in an online community think of him, and goes around killing crap on servers. This clanner realizes how POINTLESS all of his actions are, no matter how right he/she may be, yet continues to tell people the right things, how the game must be changed/balanced, and are ultimately ignored.
Sadly, out of all the new PT's chosen there were only about, say, 5 of these types of clanners picked. (Which would explain how 40 PT's can even hold one playtest <!--emo&:0--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wow.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wow.gif' /><!--endemo--> ) <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I pray I am one of those 5.
Comments
I am NOT talking about whining noobs, I'm talking about people playing at an acceptable skill level who have their balance destroyed by a better player. If I'd joined an inferior gaming league and easily thrashed all comers then rather than encourage everyone to play I would instead be driving them away. AGAIN, there is a difference between losing and getting destroyed. Most gamers enjoy close matches where there's a bit of a struggle before a big rush and then a win. If you're midway through an epic battle for the third hive, and a new player comes in and promptly annihilates the entire marine team, then single handedly rushes MS and cleans it out, then said person is going to annoy the people who've been having *fun* for the past few minutes.
In tabletop gaming it was the difference between fun play and competitive play. Some people played with an "in character" army, while others decided to use power combos. Each group did NOT get on, and in fact still don't get on. They only exist because of segregation and when they meet its on a neutral set of rules.
Take this across to NS, you can see the same concept. People playing for a fun RELAXING challenge, and people playing to WIN to get acclaim, or free graphics cards, or booth babes, or something to make themselves feel better after being beaten up in school. Whatever.
Newbies whine, but vets also whine. Everyone whines at some point, so lets try and keep it within a certain context. Vets whine if their killer strat becomes useless, vets whine if the game gets moved towards "the noobs", vets whine if the other team finds an exploit they didn't think of first, EVERYONE WHINES. What I am trying to illustrate is the two VASTLY DIFFERENT play styles. Pub style, for fun and relaxation, and clan play, for the competitive WIN. I enjoy a good hard fought game of NS on a pub, its relaxing, you can slack a bit, and it gets the old heart moving. Its not a life and death "win or die maaaan" competition.
As I said earlier, a lot of clanners are fine people, they can smurf with a bit of restraint, and they don't become total smacktards on pubs. Its the MINORITY which causes problems. They're like kids with a new toy - they have to poke everyone with it. "OMG I CAN BLINKBHOPSLASH, NOW 2 PWN TEH NOOBS". You have to grow out of that mentality, and sadly some clanners can't. And this minority is what is becoming the face of the NS clan scene. Clans need to think about how they can change this.
Playing for fun, and playing to win.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
If good clanners aren't supposed to pub, where are they supposed to play NS Necrosis...? They can't only play in scrims, and it's not fair to banish them from pubs because they are 'too good'.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Nad, pay attention man COME ON. I didn't say anyone isn't supposed to be in pubs - good clanners can pub, the same way I can play a lower ranking tabletop gamer. I've said it in this and other threads - you dumb down your game, or you try a new strat. If you can't dumb down your game, or don't want to lose your edge, then add in "rules" to your game - ie you'll only fade in the corridors between X and Y, or this round you're going to kill every 3rd marine from your cloaking ambush spot. Whatever you want. That way you can get the decent gaming you want and not remove the enjoyment for others. If people wanted to try and smoke an army of uberfades then they'll join a pug or a clan - pubs are for casual gaming.
From the clanners viewpoint, doesn't it get a bit dull when you're romping through marines and you're only dying out of lucky shots? Where's the enjoyment or challenge in that? Why not load up some bots and slaughter them instad?
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
why tell the good people to stop playing ns
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Who said that, Apollo? Cmon, tell me, who said it? Read the full posts, don't read the second or third hand comments about them. I've already said several times now that there's a difference between losing and getting destroyed. You've a favourite pub server, does it occur to you that because they're used to you they know what to expect and hence don't complain? Or perhaps you're a decent enough person? I'm talking about a dedicated minority of smacktards ruining what clans should stand for.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
I'm sorry you happen to be one of the pubbers i kill all the time
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And people wonder why noone joins clans? This is it folks, dumb hostile comments with no logical basis, lobbed into posts. I'm sorry if my comments about smacktards who get their jollies off defeating easy opponents got to you, lmao.
Read the posts fully folks, all I'm saying is that both sides need to appreciate why the other is playing. I've said it in several threads now - if I'm in a server full of tags then I realise I'm going to have to put my game face on, but if you're in a server full of average players then you're going to have to accept that they really don't want or need 1 player trying to win the game singlehanded because he/she is bored and the rest of their friends are out socialising.
so freaking true, how many more **** **** realistic/ww2 games do we need? Ugh.
so freaking true, how many more **** **** realistic/ww2 games do we need? Ugh. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
about -10 <!--emo&::nerdy::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/nerd.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='nerd.gif' /><!--endemo-->
The competitive scene, even though it is getting much more promotion than before through ampednews.com, is still not getting nearly enough promotion that serious players can completely segregate themselves from playing in pubs. There isn't much glory in being at the top of the NS clan scene, because there's such a limit on competition. That limit in turn severely limits where competitive players can go to do what they enjoy doing. What happens if you're at the top? You don't get prizes, you don't get money, you hardly even get recognized by the rest of the community. If anything, you get banned for no reason or scrutinized for cheating(remember #cri.mosis?).
Think of it in terms of a certain game in which you gain experience and ranking. Ideally, the best would play with the best and the lesser skilled would have fun in their own little way. If the lesser skilled wanted to learn, they'd go and do some research, approach the skilled, observe, and then practice. They'd develop into good players and work their way up to play with the best. In NS's case, there isn't much place for the best to play with the best.
In North America, there are only 4 or 5 clans that scrim frequently (last time I checked, now it might be less). Often, #nspug is just as 'fun' as playing pub games - except that #nspug is competitive play gone wrong, where there's either stacking (and random picking can stack teams just as easily, just not deliberately) or simply a poor level of communication and teamwork between players. It's not the same as playing with people that you actually know and can connect with. So, pugging or pubbing is what competitive players do to spend their NS time. Of course, not many pubbers will appreciate this. The competitive players don't appreciate the level of abusive communication that they often have to deal with on pub servers, so hud_showtext 0 and voice_scale 0, and possibly auth and a smurf name (which doesn't help that much anyway). And there you have it - your unresponsive 'fun killer', who often gets kicked/banned when pub server 'champs' can't believe that there's someone out there that's better than them.
Now, since pubs are so annoying to play in, and there is really no way to spend time playing in a serious competitive environment, one of two things happen. 1. The competitive player quits and goes to play another game, which actually features a good competitive playerbase. 2. The competitive player becomes bitter and plays for the thrill of 'ruining' the fun of the 'pubbers' that persecute him and ruin his way of playing the game that he loves. Every ban and kick is something to brag about, every sorry crying scrub's comments get quoted. Is this a mean thing to do? Maybe, but now you know how it happens.
But
1. NS is a very complex game.
2. New releases aren't released very often. And you KNOW the last patch was hardly revolutionary.
Constant dev team activity, as well as the basic simplicity of the game, helped Counter-strike continually gain players during its beta stages. NS, I would say, is just too ambitious of a game to succeed as a mainstream Steam-MyGames-Menu game. Why?
Natural Selection's *full* potential is only realized through competitive gaming - this is an absolute fact. I realize most pubbers don't play to compete, rather they play just to have fun. But watching pubbers play is both hilarious and depressing. If you have invested the many many hours into competitive play, you will especially appreciate and recognize the level of ineptitude (there really is no other word for it) that the average pub team operates at. In any case, I'm off topic.
NS is not a great casual game. It's hard for people to get hooked after the first game. It's even harder for people to want to seek out a team and invest thought and time into competition. Public play is constantly wrought with nubs who are *ripped* by their team if they don't go along with the gameplan. This is not a "pug" phenomenom, or a competitive-community trait - it's the level of teamwork that the game demands. But the level of teamwork required in NS will inevitably make the game less attractive to the majority of casual players.
CS: Nub will forget to plant the bomb. Will cost the team one round, out of the 40,000 that they may play.
NS: Nub will build sensory, spam ocs early game, <insert nub action here>. Will cost the team the entire game. Many people will leave/f4 immediately. If not, team is subjected to 30 minutes of spawning, leaving base/hive, dying, spawncamp, <insert undesirable action here>
CS: Nub makes poor strategical decision, walks into fire, dies. Team doesn't have to worry about him crossing line of fire. Team doesn't say "oh man if that nub wasn't on our team we could've won." Team has an excellent chance of winning with the nub as spectator - probably a better chance than with him on the field.
NS: Nub makes poor strategical decision. Drops team's second hive across the map with no protection. Costs the team the game. Gets ripped on by his team. Probably gets laughed at by the other team. I'm SURE we've all seen the vote-kick on the player who "fouled up the game".
Basically, to be a functional member of a team, "nub" needs a significant amount of experience with the game. Most of these nubs will be put-off by this. A few will continue to play.
On a good side, the average NS player is typically more patient, intelligent, clever, understanding than the average CS player - mainly because NS requires those traits in order to appreciate the game. The flip side, of course, is the sad, sad, sad, player count.
I would not be surprised to see NS at only a slightly lower player/server count a year from now. It really is a beautiful game, and certain minds will come across it and continue to appreciate it. And perhaps, with patience, the NS community will become a rare gem in gaming - a game where 95% of the players are involved in competitive play or something magical like that.
But yeah, there definitely exists two different camps that are very politically divided, even when the skill differences are blurred. The impetus, however, belongs to the competitive community to actively communicate, train, instruct, be-not-jerks to the little people. Examples must be set, people must WANT to be involved, and clanners must not let prejudices in differences of strategies or clan names/history dictate their behaviors. The clan community, on the whole, is not interested in creating opportunities for new players to learn and succeed - nub clans usually exercise the same poor judgement longer than is healthy, and the chance for a skilled/talented (but unknown) player to really experience true teamwork and strategy is hindered (and in some cases denied) by the simple fact that they are unknown.
Thus, there is an excessive amount of political ladder climbing before potential-player X or new-team Y will ever play a real, co-ordinated, mistake-free, organized game of competitive NS. Either newer clans need to be taught how to play the game, or players need to be more fairly evaluated - a large amount of otherwise skillful and intelligent players are being excluded from this "club" of real competitive clans. It's like asking the scout team to play against the starting lineup. Both teams are better than most, but the former team lacks the information and training required to compete fairly. But in the case of NS, both the information and training are denied, or otherwise unavailable for newer teams.
Anyhow, NS is *the* finest example of a team-based game I have seen, and I sincerely hope for its future survival. Pubbers are open-minded, but remain intimidated by the actions (and lack of actions) clanners make. Step one involves a heavy amount of "community service work". The original NSDraft had the right idea, but clan leaders were unable to commit themselves to this 'charity' team. It just may take a dissolution of current teams to create new-team leaders to save this precious competitive community. But I have yet to see (myself included) one example of a team/team member giving up winning in order to effect this.
So yeah, if you skipped to the end of this:
o) Quit your CAL-Gamma team and . . .
o) Lead an NSDraft team.
o) Teach people how to play the game.
o) Ignore the lack of direction in this forum post. But read it.
Otherwise, the competitive community will indeed die.
The NS team needs to become very active, almost instantly if they want to save the game.
One viable way that they could do it. Make the game playable for nubs. Ok this is going to affect the rest of the Competitive players, but guys, if you want to play scrims/pcw's then these nubs have to make clans.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->NS: Nub will build sensory, spam ocs early game, <insert nub action here>. Will cost the team the entire game. Many people will leave/f4 immediately<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> - Go on a server with Unchained mod on it, then the SC wont matter.
Nubs coming into the game is the only thing going to make NS viable in the future.
If no more players come into NS, you might as well delete it off your steam list.
So the end point is.... Does the NS team want to see its game fail, so early in its lifestyle, or will Flayra come back and want to rescue it.... its their decision.
Jas
[#UKNSL On Qnet]
[#Intrepid.ns On Qnet]
<!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
If I were Flayra, I'd call it quits and work on the new project instead. With HL2 and Doom3 coming out, HL mods will lose much of their playerbases.
As an alternative to CAL, I am the owner UKNSL [#uknsl on Q Net][ <a href='http://www.uknsl.burstfire.net' target='_blank'>UKNSL</a>] . UKNSL Is renound for being the best league however not finishing seasons due to the old heads not having time. However now i have stepped in.
UKNSL is an alternative to Clanbase, i was asked to run it because people pmed me on IRC saying they hated CB NS so could i start UKNSL, so i did.
Started UKNSL, with sponsership from Burstfire.net for gameservers for the matches to be played on. However these were underpreforming due to the CPU extensiveness on the servers.
Within the first week of starting the league, 3 clans had split. Great.... Nice way to start a league i thought. =/
We are now into the second week, with another 2 clans seeming like they have folded. Therefore things are slowly shrinking. We only did a small season, because we just wanted to raise awareness that we are back. However with the carry on of the EU Clans folding, it appears we are not going to be around for a second season as things in the EU rapidly deteriorate.
My insite to why things aint working : 1. NS Is far too costly on clans. Clanservers for NS are 4 times the price of CS Ones, as it is CPU instensive. 2. Players arent coming because you need a decent computer to run the game itself, as laggy conditions aint the best to play under at all. 3. The competitive side of NS has just turned into bitchyness. Clans all thinking their the best, and therefore being cocky and arrogant about thing, meaning people dont sit around long, as the community generally isnt nice.
Thats my insite to the EU side of things, and why it is failing. I dont go on GameSurge and go to the american clans rooms, therefore i know nothing about them.
Jas
[UKNSL Head Admin, Jason@ukns.org #UKNSL on Qnet] <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
that is probably the most truthful and correct thing i've ever heard you say. it's too damn true. less ego, more fun - i say.
i would actually play this.
Now, since pubs are so annoying to play in, and there is really no way to spend time playing in a serious competitive environment, one of two things happen. 1. The competitive player quits and goes to play another game, which actually features a good competitive playerbase. 2. The competitive player becomes bitter and plays for the thrill of 'ruining' the fun of the 'pubbers' that persecute him and ruin his way of playing the game that he loves. Every ban and kick is something to brag about, every sorry crying scrub's comments get quoted. Is this a mean thing to do? Maybe, but now you know how it happens. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Very well done. You responded perfectly to Necrosis.
One thing you forgot, the clanner type "3."
3. The clanner who enjoys the game, pubs because he just doesn't care what other people in an online community think of him, and goes around killing crap on servers. This clanner realizes how POINTLESS all of his actions are, no matter how right he/she may be, yet continues to tell people the right things, how the game must be changed/balanced, and are ultimately ignored.
Sadly, out of all the new PT's chosen there were only about, say, 5 of these types of clanners picked. (Which would explain how 40 PT's can even hold one playtest <!--emo&:0--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wow.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wow.gif' /><!--endemo--> )
Clanner 2 is your stereotypical clanner smacktard who is killing the community.
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3. The clanner who enjoys the game, pubs because he just doesn't care what other people in an online community think of him, and goes around killing crap on servers. This clanner realizes how POINTLESS all of his actions are, no matter how right he/she may be, yet continues to tell people the right things, how the game must be changed/balanced, and are ultimately ignored.
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Type 3 is just Type 2 but spends time on the forums.
I will note with some relish that noone has listed the clanner who makes time for the nubs and helps them improve their game so that they can join his clan or be more worthy opponents. However I am sure these people exist.
As a rebuttal, if your only thrill in the game is ruining other people's games then why play? Why not download some hacks and really go to town on them? Honestly, if you enjoy destroying people's games because you're bored, then just clear off and leave the community in peace.
3. The clanner who enjoys the game, pubs because he just doesn't care what other people in an online community think of him, and goes around killing crap on servers. This clanner realizes how POINTLESS all of his actions are, no matter how right he/she may be, yet continues to tell people the right things, how the game must be changed/balanced, and are ultimately ignored.
Sadly, out of all the new PT's chosen there were only about, say, 5 of these types of clanners picked. (Which would explain how 40 PT's can even hold one playtest <!--emo&:0--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wow.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wow.gif' /><!--endemo--> ) <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Clanner type 3 becomes either 1 or 2. What you described is pretty much what happens before the split occurs. It is true though and sadly ironic that the people who play the game the most (with the most experience and knowledge) are listened to the least.
"I will note with some relish that noone has listed the clanner who makes time for the nubs and helps them improve their game so that they can join his clan or be more worthy opponents. However I am sure these people exist."
This is pretty much the same - before it comes to the point where clanners get so frustrated that they either quit or snap, you can either have clanners who care to try and help people improve in their games - or clanners that care about the game but don't waste time preaching into the wind. Just out of curiosity, how often do you think the 'nubs' actually listen anyway to the advice they get?
And the thrill of beating somebody with pure skill is actually rewarding - while beating somebody with 'hacks' (true defined hacks) is for the weak-hearted.
Just out of curiosity, how often do you think the 'nubs' actually listen anyway to the advice they get?
And the thrill of beating somebody with pure skill is actually rewarding - while beating somebody with 'hacks' (true defined hacks) is for the weak-hearted.
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The thrill of beating the truly skill-less is non existent. Or so I've found when I've been in tournaments against all comers. Its rather disappointing.
Second, I think most players will actually listen up if its dispensed properly. There are ways of dispensing advice, from
"OK, lemme show you how to bhop, join this server *insert server here*"
to the always enjoyable
"OMG noob u ned to bhop teh win *insert server or random combination of bhop instructions*"
Some approaches do work better than others. A nice easy way is to boost someone's confidence then give them a server addy to dial into, where you can give them a bit of ad hoc training. IE "Hey, that was some good play, do you want to join my server to improve on that sometime?". Little things.
Yes, I know most of the players are going to suck horrendously, but at the same time the more that are trained up, the less smacktards there are.
For example my Clan plays about 5 Scrims per week against different Clans. Yes you heard right it is not always the same Clan <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You never want to play us :-/
On topic though: jada, jada, jada. I wouldn't call the community inactive yet, as long as we manage to find 1 - 3 ns scrims a day I'd say things are fine. The only problem I see, is that we europeans don't have real active and serious leagues, with mature admins. The ESL didn't host a cup for ages, and all of their ladders are dead. The NSL started out quite good, but then their admins couldn't enforce their schedule; we for example had to wait for 3 weeks or something to even know who our opponent in the half finals is going to be, now we are trying to play the god damn match vs. torment for almost 2 weeks. The CB ladder is dead since 1.04 or something, the only thing that keeps that league alive is their cup. And then we have the reformed uknsl, which actually could have been a success, if not for immature admins. So that leaves us with CB & NSL, with both not being as active as one could hope.
/me wishes
I doubt this would happen :
Reasoning : Unknown Worlds, - Flayras company that he started, would probably just make a new game. What would be the old point in continuing a game which is already dying. Out with the old, in with the new.
Now Flayra has seen where NS has failed, he can hopefully make a new game, and therefore work in areas where NS failed. IE Fast Patches ect. It would be nice for some of us if NS carried on, however, talking to people today, has made me think, maybe its just time it should be the end of this saga.
Future release titles are going to be the ones to cripple NS. WOW (World of Warcraft), Half Life 2, Doom3, Medal Of Honour, ect. The state of NS at the minute, is where it cannot recover.
Could NS have just been a beta for Flayra, to see his game creation skill, and see why games fail..... so his future titles can be more successful... i now wonder...?
Only Flayra himself knows.
Jas
Hell, I hope the community slows down in the near future. The older a game gets, the more dedicated its remaining players are. I'd be lying if I said I enjoyed the company of the average pubber, and even if the game never gets another new player(which obviously isn't the case) there are enough fans right now to sustain it for some time. Trust me, NS is not going to be dead any time soon.
Yeah, nec is the man, I'm just gonna quit so you guys can have fun! Toodles!
Oh, wait! Now saraph has a point, I just remembered I'm a sadist, and I enjoy kicking the crap out of noobs with some hard earned skill!
Oh and NiteOwl, since your an NSGuide, remember not to forget to tell them an important part of NS is this:
"Okay, after you get good enough to understand the game, and if you like it, you can take it to the next level and play in clans! However, if you get too good to rise and meet the opposition, I want you to get lost because you ruin our games! NS has one of the best online communities around, and you being better than me is a BIG no no! Don't forget that! Buh bye now, time to help me to another newbie! Much love! "
Instead of handing out random flaming, why not read the posts. Who's saying you should quit? I'm only saying that people of a certain skill level in *clans* need to dumb their game down a little or control their play on the pubs. They should do this so that the pubbers lose their image of clanners as arrogant smacktards, and thus more pubbers will form/join clans.
Of course, anyone who's not in a clan is free to be as much as a smacktard as they want, since the pub community is hardly recruiting. The topic is what clans need to do to get people interested and involved.
I have to dumb down my game sometimes, its something most people do instinctively online AND offline. Unless you're the type of immature smacktard who brings their little cousin to the house, plays a game of chess against them, then when they inevitably lose you call them retarded and tell them to stop playing chess, OMG what are they doing in your house trying to play it, lololololol. There is a difference between losing and getting annihilated. If people lose, they can learn and adapt. If you thrash them then they'll learn very little, other than that you're an arrogant timewaster who's only joy is beating people who have no chance of beating you.
Not to sound repetitive, but I fully understand if some members of the community *need* to beat on less skilled players in order to make up for their shortcomings elsewhere (least skilled on the clan, so lets go online and "prove" I'm good by beating hordes of noobs, or the bad boy in school took my lunch money, I'm going to beat up noobs to show how powerful I am, haxor) but really this isn't conducive to putting a friendly face on clanning.
And as I have said in many other threads, if you can't play nice then start your own server with likeminded people, keep out unskilled players, and play people of your OWN calibre so that you can keep the same level of enjoyment without ruining the game for others.
What you are doing is drawing even deeper divisions in the community, which will of course only lead to greater hostility. If you saw a top CS clanner join a public server, you would get nothing but respect even when he does thrash the whole server. It allows the lesser skilled players to keep in sight what to strive for, and hopefully it will keep them playing.
I'm not sure why NS is different, but it is only weakening the community. If newcomers want a place to learn the game, they should check on one of the newbie servers hanging around. Unless the rules say otherwise, a public server should be open to both those new to the game and the dedicated players.
Its not like clanners have fun playing to beat the less experienced. They just have fun playing.
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seems you never played cs <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Thanks for assuming I've never played CS though, I appreciate it.
I dont think I've ever seen a cal-gamma clan stop and give suggestions or congraduate the other team for a game. It is just GG and its over. Systemshock's first DOD match pretty much ended with a awesome guy pm me and telling me that we played a great game. After much conversation, he mentioned to us new places to hid and ways to improve and offered to scrim with us in the future. If I ever saw a gamma clan do that to a open team I would be impressed but it NEVER happens. This community has a few nice people but most of them are selfish ****. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
One could consider giving help without being asked for it arrogance. Which links to the whole "Elitist **** Vet Clanner" thing which people love to hate.
Offering advice when not asked is impolite and arrogant.
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That is the most stupidest thing that I have ever heard.. "dumbing down" your game? So, by showing that you are on the same level of play as the average pub player, you expect that the pubbers will then all of a sudden want to form clans? If anything, it is a false illusion that gets shattered when they play other clans in real games. What happens then? They'll quit, because they cannot handle being beaten all of a sudden when they were on the same level as the clanners while playing on random.pub.server:27015.
As mentioned before, playing your best shows the level of play that pubbers should strive to achieve - and some of them are doing so gradually. If anything, that should give them a taste of the kind of competition there is at the top, so that they can work towards it. However, what usually happens is that the pubber clan cries h4x and refuses to scrim/play against clans that are better than them.
There is also a difference between going into a server with 5 year olds that spam turrets everywhere and going into a server where there is an average pub base. You talk about annihilation, but what exactly is that? Differentiation between 'getting beaten' and 'getting annihilated' is in the mind.. and until the average pubber decides that he was beaten, no progress is ever made. It is funny, because that's the first step that so many players never take - learning from getting beaten and adjusting their game appropriately.
Now, since pubs are so annoying to play in, and there is really no way to spend time playing in a serious competitive environment, one of two things happen. 1. The competitive player quits and goes to play another game, which actually features a good competitive playerbase. 2. The competitive player becomes bitter and plays for the thrill of 'ruining' the fun of the 'pubbers' that persecute him and ruin his way of playing the game that he loves. Every ban and kick is something to brag about, every sorry crying scrub's comments get quoted. Is this a mean thing to do? Maybe, but now you know how it happens. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Very well done. You responded perfectly to Necrosis.
One thing you forgot, the clanner type "3."
3. The clanner who enjoys the game, pubs because he just doesn't care what other people in an online community think of him, and goes around killing crap on servers. This clanner realizes how POINTLESS all of his actions are, no matter how right he/she may be, yet continues to tell people the right things, how the game must be changed/balanced, and are ultimately ignored.
Sadly, out of all the new PT's chosen there were only about, say, 5 of these types of clanners picked. (Which would explain how 40 PT's can even hold one playtest <!--emo&:0--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wow.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wow.gif' /><!--endemo--> ) <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I pray I am one of those 5.