And just to point it out to those who do not know, Rennex has played in the #1 team in the world, exigent, for about 4 months now, making him one of the best nsplayers in the world.
Also "mean people" shouldn't discourage new teams. If you are a new team and get condesended to, and you fold, the "elitist arrogant ****" win.
People are going trash your team, even some of the best get trashed, but it happens, don't cry about it, do something about it.
I'm tired of people using "omg there are elitist arrogant vets in this community, I don't want to form a team". or "This guy said we should quit NS", they are MEAN! (there are mean people in every community, its a secret don't tell anyone).
THIS IS THE INTERNET, stop being a push-over. There will be mean people, it happens, nothing can be done about it, just ignore it and keep playing. All teams when they first form get beat (usually). It took me a few weeks of leading iRiot to get a few W's against respectable teams, while prior to that we would get smashed, but we kept at it, and I am very proud of that, even though we died because of inactivity, not because a meanie on the internet said we should quit.
New clans have to expect to lose at first, but it is worth it to get that first victory, because it will never be forgotten.
Well, it comes down to what the whole clan scene wants.
Do you want fresh blood and new faces willing to bear down and take the pain of learning in order to build a thriving competitive community? Then treat them with respect, offer help if they ask, scrim them even though you know you'll annihilate them, and say GG afterwards like a gentleman.
Do you want the clan scene to keep limping slowly downhill, losing players to other games and eventually falling apart? Treat new players and potential clanners with no respect. Mock their efforts, make fun of them in pubs, and always remember to point out to them that you are god and they are dirt.
That's about as simple as it gets. Sure you'll get people sticking with it and people dropping out either way. But which seems more likely to bring in the new faces?
If it refers to me I already do that. What I have said after everytime I've played {RR}?
IF it refers to everyone else, I Cannot control that. what new teams CAN do however is ignore the naysaying, and not make excuses.
It is up to the new people to accept the fact that some people are mean. They also have to accept the fact that these are FEW of the people (not like in CS, where you have to be nasty to get into the clan scene).
I think its pathetic excuse to hate clan play and clanners for the action's of a few people who said a team should quit NS, or that they suck or whatever.
I guess some people would rather sit back and be bitter (using a handful of people to justify it, and rationalize their behavior), then to get up and try again.
Actually its better off to leave the bitter people out of competitive NS, I want people in the clan community that accept the fact that some people are ****, and deal with, and try to improve with each scrim. I'll take a new player who is willing to learn over some bitter person that couldn't hack it in competitive play every single day of the week.
Atleast that new person would want to learn how to play.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Go idle in #caleague-ns, #nspug, #findnsscrim, or any of the other competitive geared IRC channels for a few hours and then get back to me on that. If you still stand by your statement, then I'll bother coming up with arguments. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I've hung out in those for ever a year now.
Im not really sure how this topic is continuing its people saying nothing followed by rebuttals saying nothing endlessly. But <span style='color:white'>Squishy, check the stickies in the PT forum. I feel you're missing something there...</span>
FW: No, not you specificially, it was just a general statement. I don't see you personally being responsible for the rebirth or downfall of competitive NS. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo--> That would take a group effort.
Squishy: Ok, in that case I would say that those channels are not useful for people trying to become better. Short of their intended purposes, at which they perform quite well, they're not good places to expand one's knowledge of competitive NS. The conversation is mostly on the level of idle chatter, with the occasional bit of friendly harassment, and some childish unfriendly harassment as well. But not likely the place one would go with questions on how to improve his or her own skills.
A forum, moderated the way forums are moderated here, would be an excellent place for such questions. And they won't have to be answered every time a new person is curious about something. Information in an IRC channel is gone out of sight within 30 seconds or so, and unless you log everything, it's gone forever within a number of hours. Whereas on a forum, information remains on the first page, visible, for days at a time, and is archived for years. Much more useful for new clans trying to pull themselves up by the bootstraps.
Maybe this doesn't seem useful to people who aren't in these new clans, but I can speak somewhat for them, as that's the position I'm in right now. There's a lot of learning to be done, lots of questions, lots of disorganization. A forum where the old hands can help the green clanners would be a boon to everyone in this position. It also gives the veterans a chance to shed their image of a bunch of bitter people who smurf pubs just to anger pubbers.
Maybe a goal of shiny happy clanners holding hands is too much to ask, but it would at least be a step in the right direction to make the effort.
<!--QuoteBegin-BobTheJanitor+Jul 1 2004, 11:44 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (BobTheJanitor @ Jul 1 2004, 11:44 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> There's a lot of learning to be done, lots of questions, lots of disorganization. A forum where the old hands can help the green clanners would be a boon to everyone in this position. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Or maybe make some talented competitive players NSGuides. Honestly, the group is seriously crippled without at least some competitive players.
ZunniThe best thing to happen to I&S in a long whileJoin Date: 2002-11-26Member: 10016Members
edited July 2004
I think NSGuides should be used for teaching players the basics of the game, not for fostering future clanners. Let NSGuides make competant players, and then let the clan community at large welcome a new player that wants to try to make it.
After reading this thread (when it was 3 pages), I pm'd FW to thank him for the scrim (the night before) and we've been talking ever since, so when people say they will help, they often will.
I think the hard part is being beaten badly... and then having your nose rubbed in it, that makes you feel like it's a waste of time. Sure some teams will push through that, most will just say "forget this, I can play Game <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif' /><!--endemo--> and not have to deal with the attitude"
As someone with an immature clan (most of us are clanners prior but still new to playing with each other) I say; Beat us, kick the living daylights out of us, then after it's over thank us for the game.. That's all most new clans want.. and I don't think they are asking for much. Don't knife your CC while your marines are mopping up the remains of a hive. Don't criticize people becaue they bhop badly or not at all on an HLTV feed. You aren't helping anyone out by doing these things, you just look like a jerk and make the other team feel bad UNNECESSARILY.. A better use of your time would be to talk to the players having difficulty and offer to help, or say nothing at all.
FW has gone above and beyond with our group, and we appreciate that. So thanks to him. Keyser as well, has answered many stupid comm'ing questions I had.
It's the bad things that people remember and hold onto, so clanners and pubbers both need to understand the majority of people who they play against are not jerks.. But all it takes are one or two vocal mean spirited player (on either side) to leave a lasting mark on another person's impression of the entire group.(Stereo-Type)
Clanners need to understand when playing a pub game that clan tactics won't work, the team work level you have on a bunch of players who have never seen each other is very low. So if a comm drops a TF in base, chuckle quietly and say, "Ok let's see where this goes" because the people who you are playing against, probably (in all but one pub game I can remember playing in 4a) won't have fades by the 3:30 -4 minute mark. If the comm wants you in the hive, be in the hive.. Unlike a scrim or match where the quality of your performance is directly related to how your team does, in a pub it doesn't matter. So just go out and have some fun. Most of all remember it's just a game at this point. If you are having 0 fun, head to another server or go do something else for a while. Pub games can be frustrating, but I always end up coming back to them, because there is no scheduling, or waiting around for 12 people to join, you just hop on with 0 res and gorge, or take your LMG and ask the comm for a way point..
So in closing, be respectful of the people you play with and against in all levels of the game and you may join up with a clan of people you like (like I did with FFT) or come to respect certain pub servers for players that exist there, (who can then be recruited for clanning if desired)
Either way, have some fun again with NS <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
-Z
Maybe I have a rose-tinted view of this, but these are my thoughts.
Very nicely said, Zunni. I try to help those I see that need it, but being out of the clan scene, I only now see people new to the game entirely. Those of you that step further, thank you for going out and doing that. I'll try to shovel some people up your way, if they stick around long enough to want to give it a try.
Don't waste your time with NSguides, just pm a member from #terrorns or any other major clan (exigent is really good with it), if you have any questions. I will be more than happy to help out any team/individual player who has questions about the game.
<!--QuoteBegin-Firewater+Jul 1 2004, 02:59 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Firewater @ Jul 1 2004, 02:59 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Don't waste your time with NSguides, just pm a member from #terrorns or any other major clan (exigent is really good with it), if you have any questions. I will be more than happy to help out any team/individual player who has questions about the game. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Seriously.. what do any of the nsguides have regular clanners? <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> That is the most stupidest thing that I have ever heard.. "dumbing down" your game? So, by showing that you are on the same level of play as the average pub player, you expect that the pubbers will then all of a sudden want to form clans? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I didn't say lobotomize, I said dumbed down. I don't think anyone's disputing that the scrim/clan level involves much, MUCH more practical skill than pub play, but you don't have to chop off your arms to be a pubber, hehe. If you can give them a bit of a chance then it raises their ENJOYMENT. And as I said, dumbing down is definitely not for all clanners. Certainly in other FPS games many high level players CANNOT afford to dumb down their game in case they lose their competitive edge. It may be the same for people in NS.
I thoroughly expect their illusions to be shattered when they join a clan, but the difference there is that its a pub who's been invited onto a clan server, he's not on his home ground any more, he's not playing a relaxing NS game, he's playing a competitive one, and that instantly shifts most pubbers mindset.
Of course, if you're scrimming a pug team, then its every man for himself, but thats because pug teams really can't be considered casual.. I mean its not like you just clicked the nearest pub server and wandered into a game.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> You talk about annihilation, but what exactly is that? Differentiation between 'getting beaten' and 'getting annihilated' is in the mind <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No its not. Getting annihilated is beaten with no hope of learning anything. IE being serially spawncamped. It teaches nothing and only serves to infuriate. Now, imagine you're losing because you're not checking doors, or you're always getting ambushed - that's teaching you something. Conversely on the tabletop side of things, there's an easily observable difference between a learning loss and one that gave no insight at all.
Yes, I will grant that a lot of pubbers will *NEVER* learn, no matter how little they lost by, but I'm hoping that we all believe the average pubber to have the capacity to learn why they're getting fragged.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I think if Nada walks into a pub, destroys everyone he sees, and then: 1. ignores hostility, and 2. responds positively to queries That will be a much more effective recruit-to-clanning strategy than playing below par. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I could agree with that. Chances are however that people are just going to flame back, or noone's going to make a positive query. My suggestion only comes as part of a long term plan to make clanners better in the eye of the existing pubber - certainly for an enlightened pubber the approach you suggest would be just as good.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> When I'm pubbing (almost daily), there is nothing I hate more than being patronized. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm in complete agreement. I'm not in favour of patronizing people, just trying to make pub servers a bit more enjoyable when players of mixed skill are on. In the case of spawncamping, it SHOULD be as a prelude to taking the hive - not walking back out and waiting some more. Thats no courtesy at all, and its nothing to do with dumbing down a game.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> In my opinion, good clanners playing below their best will do nothing to recruit to the clan scene. At best, pubs will be indifferent to them. At worst, they'll go "meh, these clanners ain't so hot" and it'll be a disincentive to clanning. On the other hand, if they play a good game, unsmurfed, and take a little time to be polite and explain to x or y pub that running straight at a marine is a bad idea - well, I think we might see a few more clans. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Which is fair enough and a good suggestion too, I just worry that its too much like the existing situation where everyone just flames each other postgame. There's very little existing respect, and IMHO the only way to create some respect is a good image being created for the benefit of pubbers. Flaming is a lot more noticeable and people will see more of it before they see any praise. I would say that right now, on most servers, the response would be negative to most clanners. Clanners have to put up with a lot of grief, and we're all human, and the easiest response to flaming is to flame back.
If we could move past the flaming and get straight to the respect then all would be well - but I think there needs to be a more courteous face on the clanners, if only because a clan tag is an easy label. Pubbers will be smacktards, but they're not looking to recruit clanners. If you're looking to recruit to your community, then you need a GOOD public face. Thats what I'm trying to get at. Good comments, Kavasa.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> If clanners are to teach other people, they need to be respected, otherwise its wasted time for both parties. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> If someone is insulted when someone else offers them advice, it means that they have problems with insecurity. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Totally. I mean if I was in a game and Firewater happened to dish out some advice, I'd receive it well because I know his virtual face and would believe that he's not being offensive. I agree the issue is respect and the suggestions I make are only to try to garner more respect for clanners. My methods might seem odd but I'm applying them from my own experience as a top end tabletop gamer. However its easier to offer advice to someone's face where they can SEE your sincerity than to type it out to them. I'll concede that.
Again, perhaps offering tips some time after the game might work. Perhaps even sending them a link to the server might be enough. If people aren't willing to accept help when its politely offered to them then its really their problem.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I've been banned, llama'ed, and muted on servers for trying to help out the comm, telling him not to use a turret factory at the start of a game, not to elec every node, etc. etc. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I have to come right out and be honest and say most people really don't like to be told how to comm when they're midgame. A better solution might be to hop in the chair next game and show them how its done. Yes, in all honesty the comm IS going to lose if he does stupid things and doesnt listen, but constantly commenting is only going to annoy him at best, and at worst will annoy the entire team who will instantly label any dissenters as non team players. Personally I would offer to comm the next round, and spend the rest of the current round struggling to win under the bad comm.
The next logical step of not playing pub classic games...... is fair enough. Better to keep your enjoyment by not going nuts in pub games if you ask me. And thats what I mean by informal segregation. Tho I think not playing classic *at all* is a bit extreme. But anyway, from the comm and team's point of view you're just a loud dissenter who may or may not even be Forlorn. I'm not trying to justify the pubber's response, I'm just saying try to understand why someone would be annoyed at a faceless dissenter who refuses to cooperate with the team.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Here's what I, a very competitive player in a clan, am getting from self proclaimed "pubbers" in this thread: "We hate you. Die and good riddance, no one likes clanner a-holes, all you do is come on our pubs and ruin our fun and then yell 'OMG NOOBS QUIT NS NOW!' Stay off pub servers and I hope the clan scene dies." Let's analyse this attitude. You want the clan scene to die, so there will be a general end to leagues and scrimming. You also want clan players to not play on pub servers ever. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Then to be honest you're only reading the negative view, you're ignoring the positive things said, and you're reading second or third hand posts where someone has talked about clanners quitting when NOONE has suggested all clanners leave pub NS forever. NOONE. Spend time rereading the posts and the suggestions and please don't wander in shooting your mouth off when easily the majority of this thread is dedicated to keeping the clan community alive, increasing respect amongst the pub players, and ways to get pubbers INTO the clan community.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> 90% of the pub games a clanner plays in will result in one of the following outcomes: <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't want to rain on your parade but really that happens when someone of any skill level plays on a bad server, not just in NS but in ANY game. I'm not a clanner and I've had it happen to me. My solution? Find another server. Why waste my time mouthing to people who don't care? I'll go to another server more to my liking. That way I don't act like a smacktard, and I'm not bringing myself down to their level.
Aliens: -Changes to higher lifeform. If he is good, he's cursed out for ruining the game. If he's bad, cursed out for sucking. Cursed out for res-whoring in both instances.
Happens to anyone going fade within 2 minutes. Solution? ASKING THE TEAM.
-Gorges and builds the teams necessary structures, which usually end up being all chambers, all hives, and most of the nodes. Team loses because the rest of the team can't stop the marines. Gets angered by lack of a grasp of basic strategy by the rest of the team.
Happens all the time to most team-biased gorge players. You almost become a marine comm, because you're laying all the structures while using the time inbetween to yell at the team.
-Skulks to save for hive or something. Unable to hold off six marines by himself, the clanner gets run over and the game is eventually lost; similar to gorge outcome.
Had that happen too, all the way up to the final hive when we were all lamed into the one room fighting a losing battle
Marines: -Rambos and is refused equipment/nodes/strategic structures by the comm.
Rarely, if EVER, have I seen rambos rewarded. Even then, its only been in a game where the players involved *KNOW* each other.
-Comms and is unfailingly ejected, usually immediately or when he refuses to turret up the base.
Happens to any comm who tries something thats not accepted as best practice. I've seen people kicking for NOT placing turrets.
-Follows orders and is either given bad orders, refused structures/equipment because he's in a clan, or rushed by 3 skulks and a fade and slaughtered while the rest of the team is building a structure/getting ammo/refusing to weld anyone's HA.
Had that happen too.
To be quite honest your problem is with player skill, not clanners v pubbers. Try a different server or perhaps host your own, where you can best regulate skill level.
I know this has been a long post, but try to stick with me folks.
FW, yes its probably true that people shouldn't just fold when they meet bad clanners, but if you join a group where the forums are full of flames, the people hate each other, they stomp you and tell you to stop playing, then WHERE is the incentive to stay? People don't mind getting stomped at clan level. Thats part and parcel of high level competitive play. However, if the community attitude to smacktards is "well, suck it up" then there's little to no chance that ANYONE would want to be involved.
No, people shouldn't expect to live in a sugar coated little world, but a bit of competitive respect wouldn't go amiss would it? I've played competitive tabletop games, skilled sports, dabbled in the online stuff, but in each case I would quickly have lost interest if every other person had been completely arrogant. I have seen people leave groups because of ONE arrogant person, and yes I do feel that they should have stuck it out... but if your entire experience has been with the arrogant, then why further punish yourself?
BTW I like the sound of BftG, I'll give that a go once my current job instability sorts itself out. And I thoroughly expect to be thrashed <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Ok, in that case I would say that those channels are not useful for people trying to become better. Short of their intended purposes, at which they perform quite well, they're not good places to expand one's knowledge of competitive NS. The conversation is mostly on the level of idle chatter, with the occasional bit of friendly harassment, and some childish unfriendly harassment as well. But not likely the place one would go with questions on how to improve his or her own skills.
I agree. But those are places for veteran clanners to congregrate and get on eachothers nerves. And to start drama.
I see virtually no difference besides faster response time and more interactive learning conditions between a well modded forum and a well watched irc channel. Hell put me in charge and I'll ban any trouble. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif' /><!--endemo-->
forum would be better cause(as stated previously), you dont have to sit and idle there to get info. When you visit the forums the tips and discussion are there.
Sarisel.::' ( O ) ';:-. .-.:;' ( O ) '::.Join Date: 2003-07-30Member: 18557Members, Constellation
edited July 2004
<!--QuoteBegin-Necrosis+Jul 1 2004, 07:32 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Necrosis @ Jul 1 2004, 07:32 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> 1. I thoroughly expect their illusions to be shattered when they join a clan, but the difference there is that its a pub who's been invited onto a clan server, he's not on his home ground any more, he's not playing a relaxing NS game, he's playing a competitive one, and that instantly shifts most pubbers mindset.
...
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> You talk about annihilation, but what exactly is that? Differentiation between 'getting beaten' and 'getting annihilated' is in the mind <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
2. No its not. Getting annihilated is beaten with no hope of learning anything. IE being serially spawncamped. It teaches nothing and only serves to infuriate. Now, imagine you're losing because you're not checking doors, or you're always getting ambushed - that's teaching you something. Conversely on the tabletop side of things, there's an easily observable difference between a learning loss and one that gave no insight at all.
3. Yes, I will grant that a lot of pubbers will *NEVER* learn, no matter how little they lost by, but I'm hoping that we all believe the average pubber to have the capacity to learn why they're getting fragged.
4. I'm in complete agreement. I'm not in favour of patronizing people, just trying to make pub servers a bit more enjoyable when players of mixed skill are on. In the case of spawncamping, it SHOULD be as a prelude to taking the hive - not walking back out and waiting some more. Thats no courtesy at all, and its nothing to do with dumbing down a game.
5. There's very little existing respect, and IMHO the only way to create some respect is a good image being created for the benefit of pubbers. Flaming is a lot more noticeable and people will see more of it before they see any praise. I would say that right now, on most servers, the response would be negative to most clanners. Clanners have to put up with a lot of grief, and we're all human, and the easiest response to flaming is to flame back. If we could move past the flaming and get straight to the respect then all would be well - but I think there needs to be a more courteous face on the clanners, if only because a clan tag is an easy label. Pubbers will be smacktards, but they're not looking to recruit clanners. If you're looking to recruit to your community, then you need a GOOD public face.
6. I don't want to rain on your parade but really that happens when someone of any skill level plays on a bad server, not just in NS but in ANY game. I'm not a clanner and I've had it happen to me. My solution? Find another server. Why waste my time mouthing to people who don't care? I'll go to another server more to my liking. That way I don't act like a smacktard, and I'm not bringing myself down to their level. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> 1. It is naive to think that the majority of pub players will 'shift mindset' after moving into clan play. If anything, it is so much easier to just declare h4x and return back to pubbing. Next.
2. Every loss can be learned from. Your example of spawncamping is just the end result of mistakes that were made before it came to that. The spawncamping itself is not really a form of annihilation - it is either dragging out something needlessly (which rarely occurs from the majority clanners that play on servers - unlike the proclamations of "cheater" from the other side) or being a poor sport. However, pubbers can still realize that they made errors before that point in the game which led to the spawncamp. Like you said, they didn't check doors, didn't check for ambushes - and now they got spawncamped. The spawncamp itself isn't annihilation. It doesn't exactly last for the entirety of the game. Try again.
3. What they learn, of course, varies depending on what their mindset is to start with. They could learn that the other person is cheating. In my experience, a small minority actually learns to improve their play. For example, most find it easier to run in a straight line towards a marine and say that they died in less than a second, therefore the marine hacks.
4. Spawncamping is a bad example of the kind of play clanners are capable of. How about killing 5 marines as a skulk or 5 skulks as a marine (with lmg and pistol)? Hacks? Should that be dumbed down?
5. It is quite funny, because whenever I join the game, I get asked what the symbol next to my name means (this is lately now that I no longer do the auth-smurf combo). I politely reply: veteran. They reply: more like hacker. Many don't say anything, but deep inside I am sure that there isn't respect in most of their hearts. There's hatred for someone who can play better than them. I don't flame back, I behave politely, but I still get abused quite a bit.
6. Good servers are becoming so rare these days....
This is the first game I have been remotely good enough at to consider clan play, but NS clans for the most part have demonized themselfs to the point where it is rediculous. I know a number of players with middle high range skills who are pretty much determined professional pubbers. Compared to the old days playing CS and DoD when I would have given an arm and a leg to join the clans that I played with semi regularly, NS clanners just have a much more tarnished image in my eyes then I ever remember being there playing CS or DoD (God knows its not because the comunity is less mature over all though).
I guess I might finally check out #nspug, but for the most part, you guys have made your bed.
<!--QuoteBegin-Swiftspear+Jul 2 2004, 12:00 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Swiftspear @ Jul 2 2004, 12:00 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I guess I might finally check out #nspug, but for the most part, you guys have made your bed. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> You mean a few vets who decide to be **** on pubs have made our bed? =\
I'd say at least 95% of NS clanners are really nice guys... don't let a few bad ones ruin the entire thing. NS clanners on the whole are one of the nicest/fun communities I've been in.
<!--QuoteBegin-e.Nadagast+Jul 2 2004, 04:33 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (e.Nadagast @ Jul 2 2004, 04:33 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Swiftspear+Jul 2 2004, 12:00 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Swiftspear @ Jul 2 2004, 12:00 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I guess I might finally check out #nspug, but for the most part, you guys have made your bed. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> You mean a few vets who decide to be **** on pubs have made our bed? =\
I'd say at least 95% of NS clanners are really nice guys... don't let a few bad ones ruin the entire thing. NS clanners on the whole are one of the nicest/fun communities I've been in. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I'm not saying I don't belive you, There are probably tons of NS forumites I totally respect who are in NS clans that I don't even know about, unfortuneately the 5% you speak about like to brag about how good they are, and ruin the whole process for everone else.
Unfortuneately the split in this comunity between those who see themselfs as clanners and those who see themselfs as pubbers is increadibly massive. I guess it isn't really fair to say "you guys have made your beds" but the fact remains that the split is definately there, and it isn't NO ONE's fault. To me, calling sides one way or another is borderline dangerous. What am is supposed to say next time one of those friggin bunny hopping threads comes along, and as soon as you say your a clanner, suddenly half the community assumes your an elitist **** who just wants to hold them down because you can do something they can't.
<!--QuoteBegin-ModChaosControl+Jul 2 2004, 05:31 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (ModChaosControl @ Jul 2 2004, 05:31 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> well, these are the current NS2.0 clans i know of
Noo! My vice-leader stoll teh website password !!! Damn you Cal! <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Won't those kindof die when V3.0 goes out of beta?
<!--QuoteBegin-Swiftspear+Jul 2 2004, 02:16 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Swiftspear @ Jul 2 2004, 02:16 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I'm not saying I don't belive you, There are probably tons of NS forumites I totally respect who are in NS clans that I don't even know about, unfortuneately the 5% you speak about like to brag about how good they are, and ruin the whole process for everone else. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> In a way I think this can be attributed to the Vet icons. If someone is a **** with the icon on, it makes the pubbers think horribly of the entire clanning/vet community. In other games like TFC and CS, there is no icon to show that you're in a clan. It's pretty much total anonymity. If someone is a ****, people will say "oh he is a ****," instead of putting the blame on an entire section of the community. I'm pretty sure there is at least twice the percentage of a-holes in the CS clan community than in NS.
While part of the blame lies on the few clanners for being **** to a server, part of the blame also lies on the pubbers who have been accusing anyone decent at NS (that isn't a reg on their server) of hacking/scripting/somehow cheating. This has furthered the seperation between the two communities, and it is NOT the clanners fault for being good. Only two or three clanners have been found to be hacking that I know of, I'm sure the percentage of clanning hackers is lower than the random pubbing hacker.
To all you pubbers out there: feel privileged to play with a skilled player, and AT LEAST spec someone before you call them a cheater. Don't EVER call someone a scripter. I'm not very good at CS at all, but I know if I got the chance to pub with a CAL-I player I'd take it in an instant and learn from how they play. NS pubbers have that chance but they just reject it, sticking to the same old turret strategies (after getting DESTROYED with no armor1 10 minutes into the game).
Edit: Also, just because ONE clanner was a **** doesn't mean that you should never try a clan. That just doesn't make sense... That's like me automatically being a douche to every pubber I see, just because some have been **** to me. Make a clan with people you like, regular pubbers on your server, and scrim a few times. You'll realize that there are lots of nice people who are very willing to help you out if you ask for it. If you think a comeback in a pub is fun, wait until your first comeback from sure loss in a scrim or match (or even a pug). It's 10 times more rewarding and fun. And you'll probably lose a few games at the beginning, don't get discouraged and give up, remember these people you're scrimming have probably been doing it for at least a few months and have lots more experience than you do. Keep at it, ask questions, and have fun...
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Won't those kindof die when V3.0 goes out of beta? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Or when WON disappears, at the end of the summer as far as I know.
I too, have seen many clan griefers. Despite this, until recently, I still wanted to join a clan, as I knew they weren't all like that. What changed my mind was my experience with pugging.
It is my opinion that Natural Selection simply is not the right game to apply the traditional clan format to, despite the admittedly well-reasoned objections of those currently involved in serious competition. If it is true, as they say, that this game becomes unbalanced in other formats when you have current clan-level players and strategies, then perhaps the problem is that what is widely accepted as "clan-level" is too high a standard to maintain a healthy competitive community from this mod's player base. There are many people out there too skilled and experienced to find a consistent challenge in pub play, but who cannot hope to compete in the pug or clan scene, or don't want to due to matters of personal taste.
From my limited understanding of it, BftG's format tries to remedy these problems by making it more accessible, creating a competitive context that even newcomers can enjoy. This is a commendable effort, and I believe the competitive community at large could stand to learn from it, perhaps finding a new format that can strike a middle ground between "bring your best" and "bring them all."
Bistro what was so horrible about pugging that made you not want to clan? It's pretty much the same thing as a clanner being a **** in a pub. I just don't understand why people let one person discourage them like that <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif' /><!--endemo-->
If anything I'd play harder to get better and beat them.
It wasn't one person, man. Over the course of four days, I had to deal with people berating me in #nspug for wanting to try something different, two, perhaps three matches ruined by griefers, (yes, griefers in a pug) a number of matches that were depressingly one-sided due to either a lack of planning, a lack of sticking to the plan, or just a lack of teamwork in general, and exactly one (1) good match, which I still lost. To say nothing of the fact that there's so few people actually even at the keyboard that all the people who prefer to sit in the channel and whine as opposed to actually playing games sting that much more.
Pugging did not go well for me. All this is only of minor relevance, though. I believe the poor health of the competitive community has this demanding standard as its root cause.
I think you guys are taking the icon thing a little overboard. I usually join whatever server (when pubbing) that has the best ping and playing an ns_ map. I then proceed to play... that’s the entire story... there isn’t anyone commenting on my icon other then to ask what is it? It could be that fact I now have a playtester icon but I did wear a veteran tag for as long as the program lasted and I'm sure if people hated vets that much I would have noticed, I guess it could just be me but I have my doubts. <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html//emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif' /><!--endemo-->
This further applies to the clan scene as well. In my past year+ experience I have found very few people to be as rude as I'm made to believe by this thread. I seriously doubt that even 30% of the clan scene can be half as bad as alluded to in this thread.
I think this entire issue is being taken out of context in regards to how big the problem actually is. The clan scene is in a slump... Ok, but that doesn’t mean there is a major problem with how the clan community is treating people it’s more a major problem in the lack of interest from people within the clan scene. People are losing interest in a static schedule. Nothing new is happening and there’s really nothing relatively new coming up that we can currently see. No "nsa tournaments" or the like that can be seen. I recently joined "battle for the galaxy" to spark a new interest and hopefully I will find fun within it but the problem with everyone is they are losing interest in current events.
<!--QuoteBegin-007Bistromath+Jul 2 2004, 06:02 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (007Bistromath @ Jul 2 2004, 06:02 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> It wasn't one person, man. Over the course of four days, I had to deal with people berating me in #nspug for wanting to try something different, two, perhaps three matches ruined by griefers, (yes, griefers in a pug) a number of matches that were depressingly one-sided due to either a lack of planning, a lack of sticking to the plan, or just a lack of teamwork in general, and exactly one (1) good match, which I still lost. To say nothing of the fact that there's so few people actually even at the keyboard that all the people who prefer to sit in the channel and whine as opposed to actually playing games sting that much more.
Pugging did not go well for me. All this is only of minor relevance, though. I believe the poor health of the competitive community has this demanding standard as its root cause. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> You are supposed to report greifers, and they usually get banned by titantium within 15 minutes of him reading your PM over mIRC.
And I agree, there is a serious lack of teamwork on a pug.
Really guys, the major problem with a pug is that it's only as good as the players in it.
To be perfectly honest, pugging is <b>nothing</b> like clan play, at all... this is coming from someone who's played in a lot of pugs, pubs, and clan matches.
I consider pug - pub - scrim to be all completely different and unrelated from each other.
This is how I veiw it:
<b>Pub</b>
- No teamwork - No organization - Low level of skill
<b>Pug</b>
- No teamwork - Some organization - Generally higher than low level of skill
<b>Clan play</b>
- Teamwork - Organization - Low level of skill ranging to extreme levels of skill
Seriously, a pug is like a pub with caffine... it's barely better, at all
The thing about pugs that I like is it gives you the feel of match play. match>scrim>pug>pub My first cal match I thought I was playing a different game.
FF on 6 on 6 More skilled Players. Stratagies. (you know who is saving for hive/chamber/fades)
Pubs are a free for all and I can't compare them to pugs. No strats (unless commanders make one) no one knows what the other person is doing. Player count constanly changes. Skill level is very low. ff is off.
Comments
People are going trash your team, even some of the best get trashed, but it happens, don't cry about it, do something about it.
I'm tired of people using "omg there are elitist arrogant vets in this community, I don't want to form a team". or "This guy said we should quit NS", they are MEAN! (there are mean people in every community, its a secret don't tell anyone).
THIS IS THE INTERNET, stop being a push-over. There will be mean people, it happens, nothing can be done about it, just ignore it and keep playing. All teams when they first form get beat (usually). It took me a few weeks of leading iRiot to get a few W's against respectable teams, while prior to that we would get smashed, but we kept at it, and I am very proud of that, even though we died because of inactivity, not because a meanie on the internet said we should quit.
New clans have to expect to lose at first, but it is worth it to get that first victory, because it will never be forgotten.
Do you want fresh blood and new faces willing to bear down and take the pain of learning in order to build a thriving competitive community? Then treat them with respect, offer help if they ask, scrim them even though you know you'll annihilate them, and say GG afterwards like a gentleman.
Do you want the clan scene to keep limping slowly downhill, losing players to other games and eventually falling apart? Treat new players and potential clanners with no respect. Mock their efforts, make fun of them in pubs, and always remember to point out to them that you are god and they are dirt.
That's about as simple as it gets. Sure you'll get people sticking with it and people dropping out either way. But which seems more likely to bring in the new faces?
If it refers to me I already do that. What I have said after everytime I've played {RR}?
IF it refers to everyone else, I Cannot control that. what new teams CAN do however is ignore the naysaying, and not make excuses.
It is up to the new people to accept the fact that some people are mean. They also have to accept the fact that these are FEW of the people (not like in CS, where you have to be nasty to get into the clan scene).
I think its pathetic excuse to hate clan play and clanners for the action's of a few people who said a team should quit NS, or that they suck or whatever.
I guess some people would rather sit back and be bitter (using a handful of people to justify it, and rationalize their behavior), then to get up and try again.
Actually its better off to leave the bitter people out of competitive NS, I want people in the clan community that accept the fact that some people are ****, and deal with, and try to improve with each scrim. I'll take a new player who is willing to learn over some bitter person that couldn't hack it in competitive play every single day of the week.
Atleast that new person would want to learn how to play.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I've hung out in those for ever a year now.
Im not really sure how this topic is continuing its people saying nothing followed by rebuttals saying nothing endlessly. But <span style='color:white'>Squishy, check the stickies in the PT forum. I feel you're missing something there...</span>
Squishy: Ok, in that case I would say that those channels are not useful for people trying to become better. Short of their intended purposes, at which they perform quite well, they're not good places to expand one's knowledge of competitive NS. The conversation is mostly on the level of idle chatter, with the occasional bit of friendly harassment, and some childish unfriendly harassment as well. But not likely the place one would go with questions on how to improve his or her own skills.
A forum, moderated the way forums are moderated here, would be an excellent place for such questions. And they won't have to be answered every time a new person is curious about something. Information in an IRC channel is gone out of sight within 30 seconds or so, and unless you log everything, it's gone forever within a number of hours. Whereas on a forum, information remains on the first page, visible, for days at a time, and is archived for years. Much more useful for new clans trying to pull themselves up by the bootstraps.
Maybe this doesn't seem useful to people who aren't in these new clans, but I can speak somewhat for them, as that's the position I'm in right now. There's a lot of learning to be done, lots of questions, lots of disorganization. A forum where the old hands can help the green clanners would be a boon to everyone in this position. It also gives the veterans a chance to shed their image of a bunch of bitter people who smurf pubs just to anger pubbers.
Maybe a goal of shiny happy clanners holding hands is too much to ask, but it would at least be a step in the right direction to make the effort.
Or maybe make some talented competitive players NSGuides. Honestly, the group is seriously crippled without at least some competitive players.
After reading this thread (when it was 3 pages), I pm'd FW to thank him for the scrim (the night before) and we've been talking ever since, so when people say they will help, they often will.
I think the hard part is being beaten badly... and then having your nose rubbed in it, that makes you feel like it's a waste of time. Sure some teams will push through that, most will just say "forget this, I can play Game <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif' /><!--endemo--> and not have to deal with the attitude"
As someone with an immature clan (most of us are clanners prior but still new to playing with each other) I say; Beat us, kick the living daylights out of us, then after it's over thank us for the game.. That's all most new clans want.. and I don't think they are asking for much.
Don't knife your CC while your marines are mopping up the remains of a hive. Don't criticize people becaue they bhop badly or not at all on an HLTV feed. You aren't helping anyone out by doing these things, you just look like a jerk and make the other team feel bad UNNECESSARILY.. A better use of your time would be to talk to the players having difficulty and offer to help, or say nothing at all.
FW has gone above and beyond with our group, and we appreciate that. So thanks to him. Keyser as well, has answered many stupid comm'ing questions I had.
It's the bad things that people remember and hold onto, so clanners and pubbers both need to understand the majority of people who they play against are not jerks.. But all it takes are one or two vocal mean spirited player (on either side) to leave a lasting mark on another person's impression of the entire group.(Stereo-Type)
Clanners need to understand when playing a pub game that clan tactics won't work, the team work level you have on a bunch of players who have never seen each other is very low. So if a comm drops a TF in base, chuckle quietly and say, "Ok let's see where this goes" because the people who you are playing against, probably (in all but one pub game I can remember playing in 4a) won't have fades by the 3:30 -4 minute mark. If the comm wants you in the hive, be in the hive.. Unlike a scrim or match where the quality of your performance is directly related to how your team does, in a pub it doesn't matter. So just go out and have some fun. Most of all remember it's just a game at this point. If you are having 0 fun, head to another server or go do something else for a while. Pub games can be frustrating, but I always end up coming back to them, because there is no scheduling, or waiting around for 12 people to join, you just hop on with 0 res and gorge, or take your LMG and ask the comm for a way point..
So in closing, be respectful of the people you play with and against in all levels of the game and you may join up with a clan of people you like (like I did with FFT) or come to respect certain pub servers for players that exist there, (who can then be recruited for clanning if desired)
Either way, have some fun again with NS <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
-Z
Maybe I have a rose-tinted view of this, but these are my thoughts.
Seriously.. what do any of the nsguides have regular clanners? <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Maybe I should make a topic.
But yah, my clan's going in soon D:
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
That is the most stupidest thing that I have ever heard.. "dumbing down" your game? So, by showing that you are on the same level of play as the average pub player, you expect that the pubbers will then all of a sudden want to form clans?
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I didn't say lobotomize, I said dumbed down. I don't think anyone's disputing that the scrim/clan level involves much, MUCH more practical skill than pub play, but you don't have to chop off your arms to be a pubber, hehe. If you can give them a bit of a chance then it raises their ENJOYMENT. And as I said, dumbing down is definitely not for all clanners. Certainly in other FPS games many high level players CANNOT afford to dumb down their game in case they lose their competitive edge. It may be the same for people in NS.
I thoroughly expect their illusions to be shattered when they join a clan, but the difference there is that its a pub who's been invited onto a clan server, he's not on his home ground any more, he's not playing a relaxing NS game, he's playing a competitive one, and that instantly shifts most pubbers mindset.
Of course, if you're scrimming a pug team, then its every man for himself, but thats because pug teams really can't be considered casual.. I mean its not like you just clicked the nearest pub server and wandered into a game.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
You talk about annihilation, but what exactly is that? Differentiation between 'getting beaten' and 'getting annihilated' is in the mind
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No its not. Getting annihilated is beaten with no hope of learning anything. IE being serially spawncamped. It teaches nothing and only serves to infuriate. Now, imagine you're losing because you're not checking doors, or you're always getting ambushed - that's teaching you something. Conversely on the tabletop side of things, there's an easily observable difference between a learning loss and one that gave no insight at all.
Yes, I will grant that a lot of pubbers will *NEVER* learn, no matter how little they lost by, but I'm hoping that we all believe the average pubber to have the capacity to learn why they're getting fragged.
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I think if Nada walks into a pub, destroys everyone he sees, and then:
1. ignores hostility, and
2. responds positively to queries
That will be a much more effective recruit-to-clanning strategy than playing below par.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I could agree with that. Chances are however that people are just going to flame back, or noone's going to make a positive query. My suggestion only comes as part of a long term plan to make clanners better in the eye of the existing pubber - certainly for an enlightened pubber the approach you suggest would be just as good.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
When I'm pubbing (almost daily), there is nothing I hate more than being patronized.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm in complete agreement. I'm not in favour of patronizing people, just trying to make pub servers a bit more enjoyable when players of mixed skill are on. In the case of spawncamping, it SHOULD be as a prelude to taking the hive - not walking back out and waiting some more. Thats no courtesy at all, and its nothing to do with dumbing down a game.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
In my opinion, good clanners playing below their best will do nothing to recruit to the clan scene. At best, pubs will be indifferent to them. At worst, they'll go "meh, these clanners ain't so hot" and it'll be a disincentive to clanning. On the other hand, if they play a good game, unsmurfed, and take a little time to be polite and explain to x or y pub that running straight at a marine is a bad idea - well, I think we might see a few more clans.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Which is fair enough and a good suggestion too, I just worry that its too much like the existing situation where everyone just flames each other postgame. There's very little existing respect, and IMHO the only way to create some respect is a good image being created for the benefit of pubbers. Flaming is a lot more noticeable and people will see more of it before they see any praise. I would say that right now, on most servers, the response would be negative to most clanners. Clanners have to put up with a lot of grief, and we're all human, and the easiest response to flaming is to flame back.
If we could move past the flaming and get straight to the respect then all would be well - but I think there needs to be a more courteous face on the clanners, if only because a clan tag is an easy label. Pubbers will be smacktards, but they're not looking to recruit clanners. If you're looking to recruit to your community, then you need a GOOD public face. Thats what I'm trying to get at. Good comments, Kavasa.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
If clanners are to teach other people, they need to be respected, otherwise its wasted time for both parties.
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<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
If someone is insulted when someone else offers them advice, it means that they have problems with insecurity.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Totally. I mean if I was in a game and Firewater happened to dish out some advice, I'd receive it well because I know his virtual face and would believe that he's not being offensive. I agree the issue is respect and the suggestions I make are only to try to garner more respect for clanners. My methods might seem odd but I'm applying them from my own experience as a top end tabletop gamer. However its easier to offer advice to someone's face where they can SEE your sincerity than to type it out to them. I'll concede that.
Again, perhaps offering tips some time after the game might work. Perhaps even sending them a link to the server might be enough. If people aren't willing to accept help when its politely offered to them then its really their problem.
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I've been banned, llama'ed, and muted on servers for trying to help out the comm, telling him not to use a turret factory at the start of a game, not to elec every node, etc. etc.
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I have to come right out and be honest and say most people really don't like to be told how to comm when they're midgame. A better solution might be to hop in the chair next game and show them how its done. Yes, in all honesty the comm IS going to lose if he does stupid things and doesnt listen, but constantly commenting is only going to annoy him at best, and at worst will annoy the entire team who will instantly label any dissenters as non team players. Personally I would offer to comm the next round, and spend the rest of the current round struggling to win under the bad comm.
The next logical step of not playing pub classic games...... is fair enough. Better to keep your enjoyment by not going nuts in pub games if you ask me. And thats what I mean by informal segregation. Tho I think not playing classic *at all* is a bit extreme. But anyway, from the comm and team's point of view you're just a loud dissenter who may or may not even be Forlorn. I'm not trying to justify the pubber's response, I'm just saying try to understand why someone would be annoyed at a faceless dissenter who refuses to cooperate with the team.
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Here's what I, a very competitive player in a clan, am getting from self proclaimed "pubbers" in this thread:
"We hate you. Die and good riddance, no one likes clanner a-holes, all you do is come on our pubs and ruin our fun and then yell 'OMG NOOBS QUIT NS NOW!' Stay off pub servers and I hope the clan scene dies."
Let's analyse this attitude. You want the clan scene to die, so there will be a general end to leagues and scrimming. You also want clan players to not play on pub servers ever.
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Then to be honest you're only reading the negative view, you're ignoring the positive things said, and you're reading second or third hand posts where someone has talked about clanners quitting when NOONE has suggested all clanners leave pub NS forever. NOONE. Spend time rereading the posts and the suggestions and please don't wander in shooting your mouth off when easily the majority of this thread is dedicated to keeping the clan community alive, increasing respect amongst the pub players, and ways to get pubbers INTO the clan community.
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90% of the pub games a clanner plays in will result in one of the following outcomes:
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I don't want to rain on your parade but really that happens when someone of any skill level plays on a bad server, not just in NS but in ANY game. I'm not a clanner and I've had it happen to me. My solution? Find another server. Why waste my time mouthing to people who don't care? I'll go to another server more to my liking. That way I don't act like a smacktard, and I'm not bringing myself down to their level.
Aliens:
-Changes to higher lifeform. If he is good, he's cursed out for ruining the game. If he's bad, cursed out for sucking. Cursed out for res-whoring in both instances.
Happens to anyone going fade within 2 minutes. Solution? ASKING THE TEAM.
-Gorges and builds the teams necessary structures, which usually end up being all chambers, all hives, and most of the nodes. Team loses because the rest of the team can't stop the marines. Gets angered by lack of a grasp of basic strategy by the rest of the team.
Happens all the time to most team-biased gorge players. You almost become a marine comm, because you're laying all the structures while using the time inbetween to yell at the team.
-Skulks to save for hive or something. Unable to hold off six marines by himself, the clanner gets run over and the game is eventually lost; similar to gorge outcome.
Had that happen too, all the way up to the final hive when we were all lamed into the one room fighting a losing battle
Marines:
-Rambos and is refused equipment/nodes/strategic structures by the comm.
Rarely, if EVER, have I seen rambos rewarded. Even then, its only been in a game where the players involved *KNOW* each other.
-Comms and is unfailingly ejected, usually immediately or when he refuses to turret up the base.
Happens to any comm who tries something thats not accepted as best practice. I've seen people kicking for NOT placing turrets.
-Follows orders and is either given bad orders, refused structures/equipment because he's in a clan, or rushed by 3 skulks and a fade and slaughtered while the rest of the team is building a structure/getting ammo/refusing to weld anyone's HA.
Had that happen too.
To be quite honest your problem is with player skill, not clanners v pubbers. Try a different server or perhaps host your own, where you can best regulate skill level.
I know this has been a long post, but try to stick with me folks.
FW, yes its probably true that people shouldn't just fold when they meet bad clanners, but if you join a group where the forums are full of flames, the people hate each other, they stomp you and tell you to stop playing, then WHERE is the incentive to stay? People don't mind getting stomped at clan level. Thats part and parcel of high level competitive play. However, if the community attitude to smacktards is "well, suck it up" then there's little to no chance that ANYONE would want to be involved.
No, people shouldn't expect to live in a sugar coated little world, but a bit of competitive respect wouldn't go amiss would it? I've played competitive tabletop games, skilled sports, dabbled in the online stuff, but in each case I would quickly have lost interest if every other person had been completely arrogant. I have seen people leave groups because of ONE arrogant person, and yes I do feel that they should have stuck it out... but if your entire experience has been with the arrogant, then why further punish yourself?
BTW I like the sound of BftG, I'll give that a go once my current job instability sorts itself out. And I thoroughly expect to be thrashed <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo-->
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I agree. But those are places for veteran clanners to congregrate and get on eachothers nerves. And to start drama.
I see virtually no difference besides faster response time and more interactive learning conditions between a well modded forum and a well watched irc channel. Hell put me in charge and I'll ban any trouble. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif' /><!--endemo-->
...
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You talk about annihilation, but what exactly is that? Differentiation between 'getting beaten' and 'getting annihilated' is in the mind
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2. No its not. Getting annihilated is beaten with no hope of learning anything. IE being serially spawncamped. It teaches nothing and only serves to infuriate. Now, imagine you're losing because you're not checking doors, or you're always getting ambushed - that's teaching you something. Conversely on the tabletop side of things, there's an easily observable difference between a learning loss and one that gave no insight at all.
3. Yes, I will grant that a lot of pubbers will *NEVER* learn, no matter how little they lost by, but I'm hoping that we all believe the average pubber to have the capacity to learn why they're getting fragged.
4. I'm in complete agreement. I'm not in favour of patronizing people, just trying to make pub servers a bit more enjoyable when players of mixed skill are on. In the case of spawncamping, it SHOULD be as a prelude to taking the hive - not walking back out and waiting some more. Thats no courtesy at all, and its nothing to do with dumbing down a game.
5. There's very little existing respect, and IMHO the only way to create some respect is a good image being created for the benefit of pubbers. Flaming is a lot more noticeable and people will see more of it before they see any praise. I would say that right now, on most servers, the response would be negative to most clanners. Clanners have to put up with a lot of grief, and we're all human, and the easiest response to flaming is to flame back. If we could move past the flaming and get straight to the respect then all would be well - but I think there needs to be a more courteous face on the clanners, if only because a clan tag is an easy label. Pubbers will be smacktards, but they're not looking to recruit clanners. If you're looking to recruit to your community, then you need a GOOD public face.
6. I don't want to rain on your parade but really that happens when someone of any skill level plays on a bad server, not just in NS but in ANY game. I'm not a clanner and I've had it happen to me. My solution? Find another server. Why waste my time mouthing to people who don't care? I'll go to another server more to my liking. That way I don't act like a smacktard, and I'm not bringing myself down to their level. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
1. It is naive to think that the majority of pub players will 'shift mindset' after moving into clan play. If anything, it is so much easier to just declare h4x and return back to pubbing. Next.
2. Every loss can be learned from. Your example of spawncamping is just the end result of mistakes that were made before it came to that. The spawncamping itself is not really a form of annihilation - it is either dragging out something needlessly (which rarely occurs from the majority clanners that play on servers - unlike the proclamations of "cheater" from the other side) or being a poor sport. However, pubbers can still realize that they made errors before that point in the game which led to the spawncamp. Like you said, they didn't check doors, didn't check for ambushes - and now they got spawncamped. The spawncamp itself isn't annihilation. It doesn't exactly last for the entirety of the game. Try again.
3. What they learn, of course, varies depending on what their mindset is to start with. They could learn that the other person is cheating. In my experience, a small minority actually learns to improve their play. For example, most find it easier to run in a straight line towards a marine and say that they died in less than a second, therefore the marine hacks.
4. Spawncamping is a bad example of the kind of play clanners are capable of. How about killing 5 marines as a skulk or 5 skulks as a marine (with lmg and pistol)? Hacks? Should that be dumbed down?
5. It is quite funny, because whenever I join the game, I get asked what the symbol next to my name means (this is lately now that I no longer do the auth-smurf combo). I politely reply: veteran. They reply: more like hacker. Many don't say anything, but deep inside I am sure that there isn't respect in most of their hearts. There's hatred for someone who can play better than them. I don't flame back, I behave politely, but I still get abused quite a bit.
6. Good servers are becoming so rare these days....
I guess I might finally check out #nspug, but for the most part, you guys have made your bed.
You mean a few vets who decide to be **** on pubs have made our bed? =\
I'd say at least 95% of NS clanners are really nice guys... don't let a few bad ones ruin the entire thing. NS clanners on the whole are one of the nicest/fun communities I've been in.
You mean a few vets who decide to be **** on pubs have made our bed? =\
I'd say at least 95% of NS clanners are really nice guys... don't let a few bad ones ruin the entire thing. NS clanners on the whole are one of the nicest/fun communities I've been in. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm not saying I don't belive you, There are probably tons of NS forumites I totally respect who are in NS clans that I don't even know about, unfortuneately the 5% you speak about like to brag about how good they are, and ruin the whole process for everone else.
Unfortuneately the split in this comunity between those who see themselfs as clanners and those who see themselfs as pubbers is increadibly massive. I guess it isn't really fair to say "you guys have made your beds" but the fact remains that the split is definately there, and it isn't NO ONE's fault. To me, calling sides one way or another is borderline dangerous. What am is supposed to say next time one of those friggin bunny hopping threads comes along, and as soon as you say your a clanner, suddenly half the community assumes your an elitist **** who just wants to hold them down because you can do something they can't.
SLAK,
[MoD]
.SST.
[techx0r]
<a href='http://www.slak.com.au/stats/games.slak.com.au:27011/clans.php' target='_blank'>http://www.slak.com.au/stats/games.slak.co...27011/clans.php</a>
i am in [MoD], and i am the leader
www.m0dclan.tk <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Noo! My vice-leader stoll teh website password !!! Damn you Cal! <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
SLAK,
[MoD]
.SST.
[techx0r]
<a href='http://www.slak.com.au/stats/games.slak.com.au:27011/clans.php' target='_blank'>http://www.slak.com.au/stats/games.slak.co...27011/clans.php</a>
i am in [MoD], and i am the leader
www.m0dclan.tk <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Noo! My vice-leader stoll teh website password !!! Damn you Cal! <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Won't those kindof die when V3.0 goes out of beta?
In a way I think this can be attributed to the Vet icons. If someone is a **** with the icon on, it makes the pubbers think horribly of the entire clanning/vet community. In other games like TFC and CS, there is no icon to show that you're in a clan. It's pretty much total anonymity. If someone is a ****, people will say "oh he is a ****," instead of putting the blame on an entire section of the community. I'm pretty sure there is at least twice the percentage of a-holes in the CS clan community than in NS.
While part of the blame lies on the few clanners for being **** to a server, part of the blame also lies on the pubbers who have been accusing anyone decent at NS (that isn't a reg on their server) of hacking/scripting/somehow cheating. This has furthered the seperation between the two communities, and it is NOT the clanners fault for being good. Only two or three clanners have been found to be hacking that I know of, I'm sure the percentage of clanning hackers is lower than the random pubbing hacker.
To all you pubbers out there: feel privileged to play with a skilled player, and AT LEAST spec someone before you call them a cheater. Don't EVER call someone a scripter. I'm not very good at CS at all, but I know if I got the chance to pub with a CAL-I player I'd take it in an instant and learn from how they play. NS pubbers have that chance but they just reject it, sticking to the same old turret strategies (after getting DESTROYED with no armor1 10 minutes into the game).
Edit: Also, just because ONE clanner was a **** doesn't mean that you should never try a clan. That just doesn't make sense... That's like me automatically being a douche to every pubber I see, just because some have been **** to me. Make a clan with people you like, regular pubbers on your server, and scrim a few times. You'll realize that there are lots of nice people who are very willing to help you out if you ask for it. If you think a comeback in a pub is fun, wait until your first comeback from sure loss in a scrim or match (or even a pug). It's 10 times more rewarding and fun. And you'll probably lose a few games at the beginning, don't get discouraged and give up, remember these people you're scrimming have probably been doing it for at least a few months and have lots more experience than you do. Keep at it, ask questions, and have fun...
Or when WON disappears, at the end of the summer as far as I know.
It is my opinion that Natural Selection simply is not the right game to apply the traditional clan format to, despite the admittedly well-reasoned objections of those currently involved in serious competition. If it is true, as they say, that this game becomes unbalanced in other formats when you have current clan-level players and strategies, then perhaps the problem is that what is widely accepted as "clan-level" is too high a standard to maintain a healthy competitive community from this mod's player base. There are many people out there too skilled and experienced to find a consistent challenge in pub play, but who cannot hope to compete in the pug or clan scene, or don't want to due to matters of personal taste.
From my limited understanding of it, BftG's format tries to remedy these problems by making it more accessible, creating a competitive context that even newcomers can enjoy. This is a commendable effort, and I believe the competitive community at large could stand to learn from it, perhaps finding a new format that can strike a middle ground between "bring your best" and "bring them all."
If anything I'd play harder to get better and beat them.
Pugging did not go well for me. All this is only of minor relevance, though. I believe the poor health of the competitive community has this demanding standard as its root cause.
This further applies to the clan scene as well. In my past year+ experience I have found very few people to be as rude as I'm made to believe by this thread. I seriously doubt that even 30% of the clan scene can be half as bad as alluded to in this thread.
I think this entire issue is being taken out of context in regards to how big the problem actually is. The clan scene is in a slump... Ok, but that doesn’t mean there is a major problem with how the clan community is treating people it’s more a major problem in the lack of interest from people within the clan scene. People are losing interest in a static schedule. Nothing new is happening and there’s really nothing relatively new coming up that we can currently see. No "nsa tournaments" or the like that can be seen. I recently joined "battle for the galaxy" to spark a new interest and hopefully I will find fun within it but the problem with everyone is they are losing interest in current events.
Pugging did not go well for me. All this is only of minor relevance, though. I believe the poor health of the competitive community has this demanding standard as its root cause. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
You are supposed to report greifers, and they usually get banned by titantium within 15 minutes of him reading your PM over mIRC.
And I agree, there is a serious lack of teamwork on a pug.
Really guys, the major problem with a pug is that it's only as good as the players in it.
To be perfectly honest, pugging is <b>nothing</b> like clan play, at all... this is coming from someone who's played in a lot of pugs, pubs, and clan matches.
I consider pug - pub - scrim to be all completely different and unrelated from each other.
This is how I veiw it:
<b>Pub</b>
- No teamwork
- No organization
- Low level of skill
<b>Pug</b>
- No teamwork
- Some organization
- Generally higher than low level of skill
<b>Clan play</b>
- Teamwork
- Organization
- Low level of skill ranging to extreme levels of skill
Seriously, a pug is like a pub with caffine... it's barely better, at all
My first cal match I thought I was playing a different game.
FF on
6 on 6
More skilled Players.
Stratagies. (you know who is saving for hive/chamber/fades)
Pubs are a free for all and I can't compare them to pugs.
No strats (unless commanders make one)
no one knows what the other person is doing.
Player count constanly changes.
Skill level is very low.
ff is off.