tankefuglOne Script To Rule Them All...Trondheim, NorwayJoin Date: 2002-11-14Member: 8641Members, Retired Developer, NS1 Playtester, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
ShockehIf a packet drops on the web and nobody's near to see it...Join Date: 2002-11-19Member: 9336NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Constellation
<!--QuoteBegin-crazynet+Oct 18 2004, 07:08 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (crazynet @ Oct 18 2004, 07:08 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> The most likely reason for there having to be behind the seen play testing is because: A. There would be so many updates that we could not keep up B. At times there’s probably some really messed up stuff in there that’s being tweaked C. Every time we would start playing something would be different D. How would u make sure everyone is on the same version which references back to A. E. Some one new to the game would not understand if there were constant changes and stuff broken in the game
And I like the over all idea of just a few select group of people dealing with development and testing than a really large group because two many cooks in the kitchen causes a bigger mess than with just a few. (Dang cant remember the phrase <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html//emoticons/sad-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> ) <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> You win crazynet!
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Too many cooks spoil the broth.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin-[SiD]Squishy+Oct 17 2004, 10:36 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> ([SiD]Squishy @ Oct 17 2004, 10:36 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Lorn isn't a pt. Why is he talking like he knows things? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Easy, because I'm just leaking false info that gets everyone riled up, a threaten to be banned, and 151 posts removed, right? Because of false info, right? Anyhow, I just like being the friendly guy... these people want info. All you have to do to make everyone happy is name a alien buff here and there, and generally this forum population will go nuts.
Oh, so the only important thing is to say something to make people happy, correct?
OK then: We're implementing the flamethrower for Beta 6. Along with a sixth alien class. Oh, and before I forget: BUS is actually a new graphic engine based on holographic algorithms. You see, since we may not make direct profit with NS, it being a mod and all, we decided to develop a holoprojector and will sell it at 15 bucks a piece.
Last time I checked, you wanted to hear about what will <i>really</i> be in Beta 6, and that can just not be said for certain at this point. Yes, we've got test candidates out, we do play them, so there's a tentative changelog. But <i>no</i> item on it is final. None. Some stuff still has to be added, some other might be cut again. There's nothing I, or anyone else, could tell you that we could guarantee will make the cut, and thus, we won't start alluding to stuff - this is something we learned the hard way from BUS and the obstacles that hit its path.
I can not stop others from creating rumors - that is, I can, but my conduct as admin doesn't permit me to ban people for spurting stuff they have no real insight into without of giving them a warning first. It's your decision whether to listen or not, though.
ZunniThe best thing to happen to I&S in a long whileJoin Date: 2002-11-26Member: 10016Members
edited October 2004
Nem = dead on...
I want to share information with the public.. I have had several conversations going over every planned/currently implemented change with the higher ups trying to come up with a tidbit here/there to release to you.. But to restate what Nem said, there are exactly 0 items that's NONE/ZERO, that we know for 100% sure will be staying in the game. We could implement something/anything, discover it causes major bugs/balance issues and immediately pull it, or not realize it's an issue until near the end of testing, and then pull it..
Even last release, I gave the public a full run-down on changes to ns_Eclipse... And when B5 was released Eclipse was not included due to last minute undiscovered bugs with the build. And for at least a month afterwards we had people asking where Eclipse was, and PM'ing me asking what happened..
We strive to give you the most correct information we can, so we will not be releasing any information based on early unbalanced test builds or rumours...
I think you guys are looking for a degree of certainty that really isn't possible... Realistically, anything could happen to change the feature list before release. Like Zunni said, with ns_eclipse there was no reasonable reason for the devs to expect that it wouldn't make it in, so they told us about it. Are you now saying that that was a mistake, and you should have waited for yet more certainty? Well, you wouldn't know <b><i>for sure</i></b> that there are no issues with it until the final build is done and being uploaded. Uncertainty is always going to exist when you're announcing features early, and I don't see what's wrong with that.
I think you're underestimating the maturity of this community. Regen overflow and the ns_eclipse changes were both pulled pre-release from B5, but people took it in stride and I don't remember many serious complaints. If you want to avoid the confused questions, then just throw in a post-script to the final changelog explaining what didn't make it in and why. Sure there will be the whiners, but I doubt they'll be as commonplace as the people frustrated with a lack of information are. Add a big disclaimer to all the feature announcements stating that they aren't guaranteed if you want.
We're all playing a beta version here, so why is it such a huge deal if a feature or two gets pulled after we've heard about it? Is that really enough of a justification to keep the entire community in the dark for weeks on end?
<!--QuoteBegin-Zek+Oct 18 2004, 09:57 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Zek @ Oct 18 2004, 09:57 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> We're all playing a beta version here, so why is it such a huge deal if a feature or two gets pulled after we've heard about it? Is that really enough of a justification to keep the entire community in the dark for weeks on end? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Because we can't ever give you the <i>whole</i> picture. Say I told you that the playtesters were testing a version of beta 6 wherein the marines spawned with rocket launchers and the skulks could breathe fire. Now say we try that and find that, even though it's a lot of fun, it just doesn't fit with the NS concept, or maybe it's just terribly unbalanced and every effort to balance it only makes it worse. So all those changes are rolled back. Now you have a whole community of people with secondhand information yelling "WHERE'S THE ROCKET LAUNCHERS!?!?!" And there's no way to get across exactly why they were taken out. Even if I explain in detail that the rocket launchers cause knockback that blasts aliens across the map, or that the firebreathing skulks tended to attack marines in a group and overwhelm them and gave the marines no chance, no one would listen. They'd all have suggestions on how to fix it that have probably already been considered and discarded. The simple fact is that the playtesters are there to do their job so that the game that is eventually given to the public is PLAYABLE. The version of the game that is being tested right now may or may not even be playable at all. We try out some pretty drastic changes. So just be patient. All will be made clear in due time. Until then, I doubt people would WANT to play the current PT build. It's still got a lot of rough edges and a lot of issues to hammer out. Patience, patience. All in due time...
ZunniThe best thing to happen to I&S in a long whileJoin Date: 2002-11-26Member: 10016Members
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->What I meant was, surely there's something in there that they know for a fact will make the release, right? If so, then why not release some of them in announcements like with B5? <i>Anything</i> to confirm the progress being made on the build would satisfy us plebs more than the relative silence coming from the devs right now.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
We have a few minor cosmetic changes, but as I stated in my other thread.. We want to avoid people bemoaning the fact that all this build is are cosmetic changes while large scale balance issues remain uncommented upon...
Other than those few things, every other single thing in the game is still wide open which means it's as probable as any of the items Nem Zero mentioned in his post.. (Flame Thrower, 6th alien etc)
This is actually the reply to your later post Zek...
So with this information, it would be foolish of me (or anyone) to state any of the proposed/rumoured changes while they are still in this stage of testing...
<!--QuoteBegin-Cerebral+Oct 18 2004, 05:15 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Cerebral @ Oct 18 2004, 05:15 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> so wait....when do we get the skulks with firebreath? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> when the BUS makes its return trip from their house in the mountains.
<!--QuoteBegin-shanks+Oct 18 2004, 05:40 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (shanks @ Oct 18 2004, 05:40 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Cerebral+Oct 18 2004, 05:15 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Cerebral @ Oct 18 2004, 05:15 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> so wait....when do we get the skulks with firebreath? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> when the BUS makes its return trip from their house in the mountains. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Dude, you weren't supposed to mention the trip. Were you?
O Noos the pts are fighting... lol... I enjoy the suspense of not know what the heck you all are going to be putting in the next build. Granted some times I do wonder what's going on in the back ground but as a dev of other software its hard to tell some one what is going to be in the release until you actually build the software. I am still working on Hl Global Stats, NS Stats Global, and NS Stats Client, and I am still not able to tell what features ill have included when I get my release done. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Good job PT's and Devs, you all take all the heat just to help create a great game for us all to play and it seems that you all don't get the credit at time. Keep up the good work and make <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::gorge::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/pudgy.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='pudgy.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin-BobTheJanitor+Oct 18 2004, 12:33 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (BobTheJanitor @ Oct 18 2004, 12:33 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Because we can't ever give you the <i>whole</i> picture. Say I told you that the playtesters were testing a version of beta 6 wherein the marines spawned with rocket launchers and the skulks could breathe fire. Now say we try that and find that, even though it's a lot of fun, it just doesn't fit with the NS concept, or maybe it's just terribly unbalanced and every effort to balance it only makes it worse. So all those changes are rolled back. Now you have a whole community of people with secondhand information yelling "WHERE'S THE ROCKET LAUNCHERS!?!?!" And there's no way to get across exactly why they were taken out. Even if I explain in detail that the rocket launchers cause knockback that blasts aliens across the map, or that the firebreathing skulks tended to attack marines in a group and overwhelm them and gave the marines no chance, no one would listen. They'd all have suggestions on how to fix it that have probably already been considered and discarded. The simple fact is that the playtesters are there to do their job so that the game that is eventually given to the public is PLAYABLE. The version of the game that is being tested right now may or may not even be playable at all. We try out some pretty drastic changes. So just be patient. All will be made clear in due time. Until then, I doubt people would WANT to play the current PT build. It's still got a lot of rough edges and a lot of issues to hammer out. Patience, patience. All in due time... <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I can understand keeping really extreme changes like that under wraps while they're being first tried out, though more realistic changes being revoked aren't going to get nearly as violent as reaction as the removal of rocket launchers and fire breath... If you don't like the idea of people operating on secondhand information, then put firsthand information in the announcements. Clarify with each of the beta announcements that all of these things are subject to removal at any time, and add notes to the final changelog stating which of the announced features were removed and why. Contrary to popular belief, most of the people in this community are at least reasonably competent and will probably be able to understand that. Even if you don't tell anyone anything before the release, they'll find out about these changes from the PTs afterwards and if they were going to be irritated before they'll be irritated then.
Even if I know for a fact that something isn't going in, I for one would still like to hear about it just because I'm curious to know what's being tested. There are way more people who would benefit from the knowledge than there are people who would be aggrivated by it.
<!--QuoteBegin-Zunni+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Zunni)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->We have a few minor cosmetic changes, but as I stated in my other thread.. We want to avoid people bemoaning the fact that all this build is are cosmetic changes while large scale balance issues remain uncommented upon...<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Another case where a little extra communication goes a long way. Just mention in the announcements that there are other, more major balance changes being experimented with that can't be announced yet. What few people remain that are still unsatisfied, well, ignore them. If the concept of having people complaining about things on the forums is what bothers you, then one would think that the current state of silence would be the worst possible solution.
<!--QuoteBegin-Zunni+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Zunni)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->So with this information, it would be foolish of me (or anyone) to state any of the proposed/rumoured changes while they are still in this stage of testing...<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Why? Just tell me, what is the worst that could possibly happen due to people knowing about the experimental phases of the private tests? Do you really believe that the community is so juvenile that they would scream profanities or whatever else if their favorite change doesn't make it? If not, what's the big deal?
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Why? Just tell me, what is the worst that could possibly happen due to people knowing about the experimental phases of the private tests? Do you really believe that the community is so juvenile that they would scream profanities or whatever else if their favorite change doesn't make it? If not, what's the big deal?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes, and unless they've deleted the posts from previous release, there is proof.
<!--QuoteBegin-Ahnteis+Oct 18 2004, 02:50 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Ahnteis @ Oct 18 2004, 02:50 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Yes, and unless they've deleted the posts from previous release, there is proof. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Well, I'd like to see it. If you're referring to B5, the changes that were excluded were not mentioned in the changelog at all, nor the reasoning for their removal, so of course people were annoyed.
<!--QuoteBegin-Zek+Oct 18 2004, 03:57 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Zek @ Oct 18 2004, 03:57 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> We're all playing a beta version here, so why is it such a huge deal if a feature or two gets pulled after we've heard about it? Is that really enough of a justification to keep the entire community in the dark for weeks on end? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Don't think I'm not thinking about this.
The long and short is that we're talking about gradual 'maturity' of a concept here. If we go around announcing basically untested material left and right, we're going to create confusion, overdrawn expectations, in one word, hype, and I doubt you want that. It's similiar in the other extreme. In the end, we've begun to playtest the builds, and as soon as the inevitable early bugs are resolved, we'll be able to ascertain what works in principle, and what doesn't. From that point onwards, you'll get more informations.
We're not going to keep you 'in the dark' until the night before release, but please, give us enough time to get fairly sure of what works before filling you in.
<!--QuoteBegin-Zek+Oct 18 2004, 12:40 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Zek @ Oct 18 2004, 12:40 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Why? Just tell me, what is the worst that could possibly happen due to people knowing about the experimental phases of the private tests? Do you really believe that the community is so juvenile that they would scream profanities or whatever else if their favorite change doesn't make it? If not, what's the big deal?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Because the last time a single change was mentioned (ammo dropped with weapons) it spawned a massive thread about how this would affect gameplay. And anything we mention now will breed a horde of questions about why it's going in, or if it gets pulled, then why it's NOT going in. Everyone will have their own ideas on how to balance it. Everyone will want to provide their 'expert' opinion on it. And nothing is solidly determined to be a sure bet for going into B6 yet. Let our awesome PR-meister take care of the dissemination of information. I'm betting Zunni will start feeding out tidbits of useful and fascinating info once we have something concrete. But at the moment, giving out any information would only cause trouble. There's no solid info to give out yet.
And I agree that the community can be very mature and level-headed. It is one of the most enjoyable gaming communities that it has ever been my pleasure to take part in. But I also know that the community is quite capable of grabbing hold of an idea and hanging on to it like a mad dog. I'd be surprised if someone doesn't come back later asking why we cut out the fire breathing skulks. So giving out information that's not solid yet is nothing but unprofessional behavior that will lead to problems later. AND I should probably shut up in any case. I'm no PR person, I'm just here to lock your posts and delete your sigs. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Just sit tight and wait. NS is being updated more frequently than most mods or even games out there and you guys still aren't happy <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/sad-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> You make baby Flayra cry.
Keep your panties on and just wait for the patch everyone. We can b**** after they release it <!--emo&::siege::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/siege.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='siege.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::siege::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/siege.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='siege.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::siege::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/siege.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='siege.gif' /><!--endemo-->
You're focussing too strongly on the boards, honestly. Yes, I love this little well of insanity (guess why I sticked with you for three years), but our playing community is more than twenty times as big as this forum.
So, let's say we announce that we are currently testing a build in which the flashlight can incenerate OCs if you put a magnifying glass before them (<!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->). We also add that this is highly experimental and very difficult to implement. The board's community has a heated, but mostly productive discussion on the issue. Enter X, who runs a NS fansite in another language. In an effort to shorten the news up, he runs the headline "Flashlights to burn OCs in the next version?" over his (let's be frank) not very accurate translation of our announcement. Enter Y, who skims X's frontpage from time to time. He reads the headline. The next time he joins Z's server, he casually mentions "BTW, did you know the marines can burn aliens in the next version?", only shorter and with more numbers around the edges. A few lines of heated, partly garbled discussion later, Z sets his server's MOTD to "Flamethrowers in the next version!!!!111".
Every piece of information we release is going to be re-communicated a lot of times. In that process, a lot of informative value will be lost. It's thus only sensible to limit our communication to halfway sure points, to reduce the inevitable confusion as far as possible.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Yeah, it's an awful crime to be curious about what's going on. Damn idiot f***ing stupid forum-goers.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> As much as I appreciate acid sarcasm, that was uncalled for. Nowhere here were you or people of your opinion belittled, so please don't do us the injustice of acting as though this had happened.
obuhNot Quite Smart at NSJoin Date: 2003-03-31Member: 15072Members, Constellation
edited October 2004
Well I was just pointing out the fact that it's normal that people are interested in changes and stuff that are being made. It shouldn't be seen as a whine or complaint, it just shows their interest. I understand very well that you don't want to release information if you're not sure whether it's going in the final build or not, to prevent riots, etc. I posted this to react to Wither's post, which seemed to imply that we are whiney spoiled kids.
<span style='color:white'>Be nice.</span>, even though my post was entirely filled with sarcasm, as the last comment might have given away. Before I was a PT, I wanted to know what was going to happen in the next versions as well, but lets be honest and say that parts of the NS fanbase <b>not</b> mature enough to handle small tidbits that aren't, in any way, certain to make it in. Regen overflow is just one example of that. Somehow that got leaked out and our very own lorn argued it was horribly unbalanced when he..well..uh..never played, or saw it, or used it, or..anything.
Do I need to continue? All small info that gets released and doesn't make it in will have people whine about it. I'd rather not have another 10 page thread stating x feature is unbalanced when the people argueing honestly wouldn't know.
<!--QuoteBegin-Wither+Oct 18 2004, 02:32 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Wither @ Oct 18 2004, 02:32 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <span style='color:white'>Be nice.</span>, even though my post was entirely filled with sarcasm, as the last comment might have given away. Before I was a PT, I wanted to know what was going to happen in the next versions as well, but lets be honest and say that parts of the NS fanbase <b>not</b> mature enough to handle small tidbits that aren't, in any way, certain to make it in. Regen overflow is just one example of that. Somehow that got leaked out and our very own lorn argued it was horribly unbalanced when he..well..uh..never played, or saw it, or used it, or..anything.
Do I need to continue? All small info that gets released and doesn't make it in will have people whine about it. I'd rather not have another 10 page thread stating x feature is unbalanced when the people argueing honestly wouldn't know. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Overflowing regen was in for quite a few betas. I know this because I do. It was screwed up beyond belief and made aliens quite literally invincible in the hive. Not only did I play with it on, but I also argued against it <b>in game</b>.
Sorry I missed your comment grendel, I'm sure it was really witty <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/sad-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Comments
A. There would be so many updates that we could not keep up
B. At times there’s probably some really messed up stuff in there that’s being tweaked
C. Every time we would start playing something would be different
D. How would u make sure everyone is on the same version which references back to A.
E. Some one new to the game would not understand if there were constant changes and stuff broken in the game
And I like the over all idea of just a few select group of people dealing with development and testing than a really large group because two many cooks in the kitchen causes a bigger mess than with just a few. (Dang cant remember the phrase <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html//emoticons/sad-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> ) <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
You win crazynet!
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Too many cooks spoil the broth.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And when have we seen <b>that</b> before?
- Shockwave
Easy, because I'm just leaking false info that gets everyone riled up, a threaten to be banned, and 151 posts removed, right? Because of false info, right? Anyhow, I just like being the friendly guy... these people want info. All you have to do to make everyone happy is name a alien buff here and there, and generally this forum population will go nuts.
OK then: We're implementing the flamethrower for Beta 6. Along with a sixth alien class. Oh, and before I forget: BUS is actually a new graphic engine based on holographic algorithms. You see, since we may not make direct profit with NS, it being a mod and all, we decided to develop a holoprojector and will sell it at 15 bucks a piece.
Last time I checked, you wanted to hear about what will <i>really</i> be in Beta 6, and that can just not be said for certain at this point. Yes, we've got test candidates out, we do play them, so there's a tentative changelog. But <i>no</i> item on it is final. None. Some stuff still has to be added, some other might be cut again. There's nothing I, or anyone else, could tell you that we could guarantee will make the cut, and thus, we won't start alluding to stuff - this is something we learned the hard way from BUS and the obstacles that hit its path.
I can not stop others from creating rumors - that is, I can, but my conduct as admin doesn't permit me to ban people for spurting stuff they have no real insight into without of giving them a warning first. It's your decision whether to listen or not, though.
I want to share information with the public.. I have had several conversations going over every planned/currently implemented change with the higher ups trying to come up with a tidbit here/there to release to you.. But to restate what Nem said, there are exactly 0 items that's NONE/ZERO, that we know for 100% sure will be staying in the game. We could implement something/anything, discover it causes major bugs/balance issues and immediately pull it, or not realize it's an issue until near the end of testing, and then pull it..
Even last release, I gave the public a full run-down on changes to ns_Eclipse... And when B5 was released Eclipse was not included due to last minute undiscovered bugs with the build. And for at least a month afterwards we had people asking where Eclipse was, and PM'ing me asking what happened..
We strive to give you the most correct information we can, so we will not be releasing any information based on early unbalanced test builds or rumours...
I think you're underestimating the maturity of this community. Regen overflow and the ns_eclipse changes were both pulled pre-release from B5, but people took it in stride and I don't remember many serious complaints. If you want to avoid the confused questions, then just throw in a post-script to the final changelog explaining what didn't make it in and why. Sure there will be the whiners, but I doubt they'll be as commonplace as the people frustrated with a lack of information are. Add a big disclaimer to all the feature announcements stating that they aren't guaranteed if you want.
We're all playing a beta version here, so why is it such a huge deal if a feature or two gets pulled after we've heard about it? Is that really enough of a justification to keep the entire community in the dark for weeks on end?
Because we can't ever give you the <i>whole</i> picture. Say I told you that the playtesters were testing a version of beta 6 wherein the marines spawned with rocket launchers and the skulks could breathe fire. Now say we try that and find that, even though it's a lot of fun, it just doesn't fit with the NS concept, or maybe it's just terribly unbalanced and every effort to balance it only makes it worse. So all those changes are rolled back. Now you have a whole community of people with secondhand information yelling "WHERE'S THE ROCKET LAUNCHERS!?!?!" And there's no way to get across exactly why they were taken out. Even if I explain in detail that the rocket launchers cause knockback that blasts aliens across the map, or that the firebreathing skulks tended to attack marines in a group and overwhelm them and gave the marines no chance, no one would listen. They'd all have suggestions on how to fix it that have probably already been considered and discarded. The simple fact is that the playtesters are there to do their job so that the game that is eventually given to the public is PLAYABLE. The version of the game that is being tested right now may or may not even be playable at all. We try out some pretty drastic changes. So just be patient. All will be made clear in due time. Until then, I doubt people would WANT to play the current PT build. It's still got a lot of rough edges and a lot of issues to hammer out. Patience, patience. All in due time...
We have a few minor cosmetic changes, but as I stated in my other thread.. We want to avoid people bemoaning the fact that all this build is are cosmetic changes while large scale balance issues remain uncommented upon...
Other than those few things, every other single thing in the game is still wide open which means it's as probable as any of the items Nem Zero mentioned in his post.. (Flame Thrower, 6th alien etc)
This is actually the reply to your later post Zek...
So with this information, it would be foolish of me (or anyone) to state any of the proposed/rumoured changes while they are still in this stage of testing...
when the BUS makes its return trip from their house in the mountains.
when the BUS makes its return trip from their house in the mountains. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Dude, you weren't supposed to mention the trip. Were you?
Good job PT's and Devs, you all take all the heat just to help create a great game for us all to play and it seems that you all don't get the credit at time. Keep up the good work and make <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::gorge::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/pudgy.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='pudgy.gif' /><!--endemo-->
I can understand keeping really extreme changes like that under wraps while they're being first tried out, though more realistic changes being revoked aren't going to get nearly as violent as reaction as the removal of rocket launchers and fire breath... If you don't like the idea of people operating on secondhand information, then put firsthand information in the announcements. Clarify with each of the beta announcements that all of these things are subject to removal at any time, and add notes to the final changelog stating which of the announced features were removed and why. Contrary to popular belief, most of the people in this community are at least reasonably competent and will probably be able to understand that. Even if you don't tell anyone anything before the release, they'll find out about these changes from the PTs afterwards and if they were going to be irritated before they'll be irritated then.
Even if I know for a fact that something isn't going in, I for one would still like to hear about it just because I'm curious to know what's being tested. There are way more people who would benefit from the knowledge than there are people who would be aggrivated by it.
<!--QuoteBegin-Zunni+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Zunni)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->We have a few minor cosmetic changes, but as I stated in my other thread.. We want to avoid people bemoaning the fact that all this build is are cosmetic changes while large scale balance issues remain uncommented upon...<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Another case where a little extra communication goes a long way. Just mention in the announcements that there are other, more major balance changes being experimented with that can't be announced yet. What few people remain that are still unsatisfied, well, ignore them. If the concept of having people complaining about things on the forums is what bothers you, then one would think that the current state of silence would be the worst possible solution.
<!--QuoteBegin-Zunni+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Zunni)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->So with this information, it would be foolish of me (or anyone) to state any of the proposed/rumoured changes while they are still in this stage of testing...<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Why? Just tell me, what is the worst that could possibly happen due to people knowing about the experimental phases of the private tests? Do you really believe that the community is so juvenile that they would scream profanities or whatever else if their favorite change doesn't make it? If not, what's the big deal?
Yes, and unless they've deleted the posts from previous release, there is proof.
Well, I'd like to see it. If you're referring to B5, the changes that were excluded were not mentioned in the changelog at all, nor the reasoning for their removal, so of course people were annoyed.
Don't think I'm not thinking about this.
The long and short is that we're talking about gradual 'maturity' of a concept here. If we go around announcing basically untested material left and right, we're going to create confusion, overdrawn expectations, in one word, hype, and I doubt you want that. It's similiar in the other extreme.
In the end, we've begun to playtest the builds, and as soon as the inevitable early bugs are resolved, we'll be able to ascertain what works in principle, and what doesn't. From that point onwards, you'll get more informations.
We're not going to keep you 'in the dark' until the night before release, but please, give us enough time to get fairly sure of what works before filling you in.
Because the last time a single change was mentioned (ammo dropped with weapons) it spawned a massive thread about how this would affect gameplay. And anything we mention now will breed a horde of questions about why it's going in, or if it gets pulled, then why it's NOT going in. Everyone will have their own ideas on how to balance it. Everyone will want to provide their 'expert' opinion on it. And nothing is solidly determined to be a sure bet for going into B6 yet. Let our awesome PR-meister take care of the dissemination of information. I'm betting Zunni will start feeding out tidbits of useful and fascinating info once we have something concrete. But at the moment, giving out any information would only cause trouble. There's no solid info to give out yet.
And I agree that the community can be very mature and level-headed. It is one of the most enjoyable gaming communities that it has ever been my pleasure to take part in. But I also know that the community is quite capable of grabbing hold of an idea and hanging on to it like a mad dog. I'd be surprised if someone doesn't come back later asking why we cut out the fire breathing skulks. So giving out information that's not solid yet is nothing but unprofessional behavior that will lead to problems later. AND I should probably shut up in any case. I'm no PR person, I'm just here to lock your posts and delete your sigs. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
So, let's say we announce that we are currently testing a build in which the flashlight can incenerate OCs if you put a magnifying glass before them (<!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->). We also add that this is highly experimental and very difficult to implement. The board's community has a heated, but mostly productive discussion on the issue.
Enter X, who runs a NS fansite in another language. In an effort to shorten the news up, he runs the headline "Flashlights to burn OCs in the next version?" over his (let's be frank) not very accurate translation of our announcement.
Enter Y, who skims X's frontpage from time to time. He reads the headline. The next time he joins Z's server, he casually mentions "BTW, did you know the marines can burn aliens in the next version?", only shorter and with more numbers around the edges. A few lines of heated, partly garbled discussion later, Z sets his server's MOTD to "Flamethrowers in the next version!!!!111".
Every piece of information we release is going to be re-communicated a lot of times. In that process, a lot of informative value will be lost. It's thus only sensible to limit our communication to halfway sure points, to reduce the inevitable confusion as far as possible.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Yeah, it's an awful crime to be curious about what's going on. Damn idiot f***ing stupid forum-goers.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
As much as I appreciate acid sarcasm, that was uncalled for. Nowhere here were you or people of your opinion belittled, so please don't do us the injustice of acting as though this had happened.
Do I need to continue? All small info that gets released and doesn't make it in will have people whine about it. I'd rather not have another 10 page thread stating x feature is unbalanced when the people argueing honestly wouldn't know.
Do I need to continue? All small info that gets released and doesn't make it in will have people whine about it. I'd rather not have another 10 page thread stating x feature is unbalanced when the people argueing honestly wouldn't know. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Overflowing regen was in for quite a few betas. I know this because I do. It was screwed up beyond belief and made aliens quite literally invincible in the hive. Not only did I play with it on, but I also argued against it <b>in game</b>.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><span style='color:white'>Be nice.</span><!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sorry I missed your comment grendel, I'm sure it was really witty <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/sad-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->