<!--QuoteBegin-xtremecore+Jan 25 2005, 08:52 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (xtremecore @ Jan 25 2005, 08:52 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> it seems your social role is based on the effectiveness of your killing,
IE: the commander seems to give that first heavy or "big gun" to the MVP of the team, or sometimes ONLY to the marines with the highest ratio.
It boggles my mind sometimes that a commander thinks that one person with a shotgun while all the others sport an lmg is some kind of advantage. whilist if all of them had shotguns, even the lamest of the team could **** up a kill or two with a simple spammage of meds <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Same with aliens, just because you're a good fade or lerk.. why does that exempt you from dropping an rt or hive once in a while and let someone else go lerk or fade for once? skill is based on practice, if those who are less-skilled never get to exercise those skills, then they shall stay in their "less-skilled" level and never exceed.
Those who pair up with their teamates become better known than those who rambo off and keep to themselves most of the time. sometimes they are not where they are needed, and it screws up the rhythm and puts a downer on the team, perhaps puts a grudge on you from the team whining "where were you?!"
p.s. i didn't know s-n-a-t-ch was censored ;x <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> A lot of times in tight games, resources are restricted because of the constant battle over nodes, RTs being taken down and rebuilt over and over again. Resources must be conserved and dished out accordingly, scarcely at times. Good commanders deal out those resources to marines who have proved to have a more damage over death ratio. There are times when good marines don't get the gear, they still adapt with their LMG.
As for rambos, there are dumb rambos of course that goes off to useless places, but there are 'rambos' who are aware of how a certain map works, goes to key points to hold back the skulk while waiting for more backup. Once a commander calls out the first hive, good and experienced marines will immediately realize which areas of the maps will be the chokepoints that round, etc.
<!--QuoteBegin-Lancelot+Jan 25 2005, 08:54 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Lancelot @ Jan 25 2005, 08:54 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> When I comm on Pubs there is one extrmely important thing clanners do FAR BETTER than anyone else: They are at the place I want the next Phase Gate before I can tell it to my team...
It is great to have <insert fancy clantag here> member at building second hive, holding his own while he gets a PG up. This singel guy really makes the difference.
The rest of the pub team has an important function too: They annoy the aliens in odd places or love to take double, just because you are "supposed" to take dbl.
But in the end..the situational awareness (Part of the skill most clanners should have) of a single player helps me as a comm to win a game.
Skill is not only "aim, blink, and fast weaponswitch" but the ability to predict the next move of your enemy, second guess an ambushing skulks thoughts and camping in the right places.
mfg
Lance <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> you still take a risk directing that one marine to build you up a pg/turret factory/rt if no one phases.. which happens sometimes. Good marines are not invulnerable to ambush attacks either, they screw up as all players do. why put all your eggs in one basket. I recommend always pairing up in groups of 2 no matter the skill level.
There is no fool proof strategy, there is always somethign, that can go wrong and then I think of something else.
My team can't get a PG close to the second hive on a PUB? I go for res control and tech to HA. Or I use a team to distract at second hive and have one guy getting a Pg at their start hive...
About pairing up: I WOULD tell them to pair up, but more often than not there already IS a guy (clanner) at the place I need him.
<!--QuoteBegin-crisano+Jan 25 2005, 09:02 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (crisano @ Jan 25 2005, 09:02 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->If you say you're worth nothing for being a better skilled player on a team, then you must be a pretty crappy commander. All good commanders, whether a pubber or a clanner, knows a good marine within the first couple minutes of the game. They will like you say adapt, they will usually send the better marines to key junctions, they will usually gear up good marines because they believe that those marines will conserve the res better, by not dying and wasting res. Good marines as you say must adapt, they do. They take what they can get from the commander and make the best of it, if the commander doesn't like dropping meds, the good marine adapt, playing more carefully.
However, good marines don't adapt for the worse just because they're in pub play, that would be pure stupidity. It's like saying, "Oh I'm in a pub now, let me use bad strategies to help my team lose." Good marines will continue to try to hold known choke points, hamper the alien team's resources, etc. That's a key strategy in all of NS, telling a good player, clanner or not, to adapt by doing stupid stuff like locking down one hive while letting the aliens rampage through the other half of the map goes against good thinking. Same as building base turrets, why would you 'adapt' by wasting precious early game minutes building turrets in base while you can be out contesting key nodes with aliens, you don't adapt to a sure-lose strategy. You dont' adapt down a level, you always adapt up to try to win.
Edit Add-on: Great explanation, Lancelot.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Maybe I wasn’t that clear: You’re socially nothing more worth than other players only because you have more skill.
And I don’t say you should adept for the worse.
Your skill and ability to adept the mechanics of the game are only one side of the coin on a public server. If you play on a public you have other factor how are also very important like the team play. That’s includes also that you should try to be a part of the team and don’t just go your own way. Even if it’s the right way but nobody follows you its only semi-optimal. I have seen lower skilled player convinced other players to follow him doing the right thing. Maybe he had not the same kill count as you would be able to archive, but his performance was very valuable. He was able to do it because he had a good social status and the other players know that he know the game – aside he has not the best aiming.
You won’t get a good social status in the current group of players if you play on public servers all others muted, never using voice, faking and just doing your own thing. And many clanner play it that way on public servers.
Most clanners adept the game mechanics very good and fast – but they are probable only semi-optimal player on a public server.
If I’m commander I also support that kind of clanners because they perform well and give me often the chance for a phase gate at the right position. On the other side – lower skilled marines in pairs can archive the same.
Scylla: (Didn't want to use another quote to clutter up the board)
One thing I don't understand is why do you keep relating skill to killcount. Killcount only resembles part of a skilled player. As Lancelot pointed out, aiming is only a part of being a skilled player, situational awareness is even more important, mid-game strategy recognization is usually what separates the above average players with the good players.
Like you said, above average players might just rambo around to get up the kill count, but the good players will usually go to the places that are necessary. This has nothing to do with social status and whatnot, they do what is needed in a game to win, because to them winning is fun. Some players don't need to win to have fun, more power to them.
Most clanners mute everyone except for the commander if the commander is competent. There are more reasons to it than because they are being elitists. It's because of the harrassment they get from most of the public servers they go to. I won't go into detail about the harrassment because it'll turn into another flaming debate which Nem0 stated he doesn't want. You say that perhaps a marine with lower kill counts and lower aiming ability will know to go to the right places, getting those with higher kill counts and higher aiming ability to follow. Good players, by the whole definition, are probably already there or heading there, because they also know that the particular location is vital to the success of the team.
<!--QuoteBegin-crisano+Jan 25 2005, 09:52 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (crisano @ Jan 25 2005, 09:52 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> One thing I don't understand is why do you keep relating skill to killcount. Killcount only resembles part of a skilled player. As Lancelot pointed out, aiming is only a part of being a skilled player, situational awareness is even more important, mid-game strategy recognization is usually what separates the above average players with the good players. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I’m aware that there are other skills than aiming like the situation awareness or for example movement skill, map knowledge. But especially on a public you have other important skills like social skills, communication skills and probable more.
If you don’t want that the commander wasting unnecessary resources on sentries you have to convince him by communication skills. If you are well known and respected player on that server (social status) it will be easier for you.
If you fake, mute all others and never use voice you’re not able to use these skills. Also if you play that way on public servers the other team members may won’t consider you as a part of the team. I would feel myself as very limited if I play that way as I’m not that good aimer but have good situation awareness.
Natural Selection is very unique in the way of possible skills you can use for the advantage of your team.
Also I think that playing that way doesn’t help to develop a better relationship between the competitive and casual scene. And the casual players have to stop harass player only because they’re skilled.
At least everyone is a semi-optimal player in Natural Selection <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->.
the easiest way for you to bridge the skill gap is to get a bottle of 20yr/o whiskey and some ice. you can use a glass if you want. (I just put the ice in my mouth)
<!--QuoteBegin-ZiGGY+Jan 25 2005, 10:55 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (ZiGGY @ Jan 25 2005, 10:55 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->the easiest way for you to bridge the skill gap is to get a bottle of 20yr/o whiskey and some ice. you can use a glass if you want. (I just put the ice in my mouth)<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I'd take a 12 year old Laphroaig any day though. And no freaking ice, stop your american blasphemy.
<!--QuoteBegin-Lancelot+Jan 25 2005, 09:36 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Lancelot @ Jan 25 2005, 09:36 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> There is no fool proof strategy, there is always somethign, that can go wrong and then I think of something else.
My team can't get a PG close to the second hive on a PUB? I go for res control and tech to HA. Or I use a team to distract at second hive and have one guy getting a Pg at their start hive...
About pairing up: I WOULD tell them to pair up, but more often than not there already IS a guy (clanner) at the place I need him.
mfg
Lance <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> you should always have the res to compensate for that pg/tf or whatever. i see a lot of people doing hive rushes sporting two rt's.. it's a waste of time. Even if you managed to get that hive down, you're quickly encountered by fades/skulks/lerks thereafter and lack the sufficient funds to lock it down or even medpack your team for that matter.
<!--QuoteBegin-Lancelot+Jan 25 2005, 05:22 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Lancelot @ Jan 25 2005, 05:22 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Keep one guy on constant recap/RT coverage? You make it sound like it is impossible to kill a hive without 8 guys bunched up with HA and sieges.
Keeping up the pressure allows me to get nodes and keep them.
Of course your objections are valid. But I never said I wouldnt get nodes.
mfg
Lance <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> we're referring to the more early states of the game..
Last season, Rumblefish stole a round from [HAD] by sense rushing them. [HAD] was TOTALLY out of rF's league at this point in time. It was totally unorthodox, totally crazy, and some people could say, cheap.
But the point is that one team beat another team with a strat and not deathmatching skillz.
Rumblefish tried the same strat on ET and they countered by selling base and relocating to the middle hive. They forced a midgame in which our late fades died with no dc's and they easily dispatched our 2nd hive which was sewer on caged, cause we were trying to defend it all the way from generator hive.
That was them out strat-ing our crazy strat.
so get out of here with your no RTS in NS garbage.
I'm just wondering why people are so against the goal of reducing the skill gap and bringing novices and pros closer together... Aren't games with nearly equally skilled teams more fun than teams that has rapid differences in skill? It could also attract more people who are turned off by the initial hard core gamestyle.
If there is anything I hate more than pubbers building turrets its when clanners get on pubs and build turrets. Clanners know better than to follow the poor strategy of the pubs. It is outright stupid and destructive to the pubbing community for clanners to follow poor strategies just to win the round.
I would rather be a solo rambo pressuring a choke point than follow the pubbers in improper strategy. I refuse to feed the bears.
It is insulting to ask the clanners to reverse addapt to the pubbers playstyle just so the round can be won.
The fact of the matter is it is easiest for the pub commander to just give the clanner the meds and ammo when he asks and let him go on his way. The pub players will naturaly follow the better players.
Clanners are less than optimal in a pub?? ---Maybe from the point of view of a pubber that does not understand quality play.
Let me insure you, EVERYONE else is less than optimal from the point of view of the clanner (besides maybe those commanders that just drop ammo and meds, clanners love those).
<!--QuoteBegin-SmoodCroozn+Jan 25 2005, 04:22 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (SmoodCroozn @ Jan 25 2005, 04:22 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I'm just wondering why people are so against the goal of reducing the skill gap and bringing novices and pros closer together... Aren't games with nearly equally skilled teams more fun than teams that has rapid differences in skill? It could also attract more people who are turned off by the initial hard core gamestyle. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> No one is against closing the skill gap.
NS is the only community I have ever heard of that puts the blame of skill seperation on the skilled community. It is the responsibility of the indevidual player to seek improvement; it is not the job of everyone else to force someone to improve.
The competative community is more than helpfull to new players willing to improve. But like any skilled group they hold little respect for those players that do not want to improve.
take one Cal-I cser against 5 CS pubbers. watch the results. The same happens in NS. but actualy Cal-M could own almost an entire team of the average pub.
Right now your seeing the gap between the "Cal-I" nsplayers, "Cal-M" nsplayers, and ns-pubbers.
in CS balance of teams isn't questioned as much as NSs. mainly because in CS both teams have just about the same equipment, and very similar. While in NS the teams are vastly diffrent thus most people to not see it.
<!--QuoteBegin-SmoodCroozn+Jan 25 2005, 07:22 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (SmoodCroozn @ Jan 25 2005, 07:22 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I'm just wondering why people are so against the goal of reducing the skill gap and bringing novices and pros closer together... Aren't games with nearly equally skilled teams more fun than teams that has rapid differences in skill? It could also attract more people who are turned off by the initial hard core gamestyle. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Skill is just that. A skill. Something one gets by refineing their abilities in an area, (I.E. Natural-Selection) and becoming better than others at. If one was to limit it to simple "stratigies" that ALWAYS won or lost a game despite skill factors, the game would grow boring and stale, incredibly fast.
If anything, NS needs MORE skill differentiation. That includes smart strats, smart play, and smart ability. The rewards, for being the best LMGer in the world, more often than not are not going to save you from that cara walker fade.
But the current balance of required skill to win, really is quite nice right now. Teamwork, as you've put it, IS a skill in itself, and once one realize they don't need to be on top of eachother to work as a proficent team, one can realize how to better themselves at this game.
I think Firewater and others misunderstood my "steal a half" remark. I don't mean it in the sense that like... I think the skill gap should be narrowed somehow. That seems fine to me. I'd like, in a perfect world, to see the strategic possibilities opened up such the higher-skilled clan would just not have any idea what was going on until too late.
Failure to adapt, you might say.
Even dn's phase and shotgun rush on t wasn't analogous, that's been around since 2.01.
This is an all but impossible dream, though. I can only think of one RTS with a similar property, and that's TA. And even in TA, there were a couple hard counters that worked on just about everything, and a whole lot of TA was economy management and throwing hordes of fidos/pheonixes at the other guy. But there were definitely strange tech orders and tactical decisions you could make that could win you the game.
<!--QuoteBegin-homicide+Jan 26 2005, 01:39 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (homicide @ Jan 26 2005, 01:39 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-SmoodCroozn+Jan 25 2005, 04:22 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (SmoodCroozn @ Jan 25 2005, 04:22 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I'm just wondering why people are so against the goal of reducing the skill gap and bringing novices and pros closer together... Aren't games with nearly equally skilled teams more fun than teams that has rapid differences in skill? It could also attract more people who are turned off by the initial hard core gamestyle. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> No one is against closing the skill gap.
NS is the only community I have ever heard of that puts the blame of skill seperation on the skilled community. It is the responsibility of the indevidual player to seek improvement; it is not the job of everyone else to force someone to improve.
The competative community is more than helpfull to new players willing to improve. But like any skilled group they hold little respect for those players that do not want to improve. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Homicide gets it perfectly in that post.
There are at least 3 teams/clans that I know of who are being mentored by established CAL-Delta clans and a 4th which is sort of half mentored & half standing on their own. If someone asks our clan to show them how to play competitively or asks for help to perfect some of their skills then 90% of the time we'll happily oblige by getting them on our Ventrilo & our clan server and doing exactly that & I'm sure other clans & players have done too. NSlearn (http://www.nslearn.org/ & #nslearn on Gamesurge) was set up by mostly members from Terror to provide help & training for people wishing to improve their game.
Yes we're clearly "against the goal of reducing the skill gap and bringing novices and pros closer together".
This is 'General Competitive Discussion' not 'Please whine about competitive players from your preconceptions of them in your favourite pub server'
Ugh, fine. If we're going to play semantics I'll be ultra-philosopher precise:
Imagine there exist two clans, A and B, such that:
1. Clan A's deathmatching and teamwork are demonstrably superior to clan B. By this I mean the average clan A shooter will always cover his teammates from the most effective position, kill a skulk in five fewer bullets than his clan B counterpart, ambush with a higher degree of synchronicity, and so on. 2. Clan B can nevertheless steal a round or a game from clan A by surprising them with Strategy Q for which there is a Counter P that clan A does not know. Which is to say that if Clan A employed Counter P, they would win because of their superior deathmatching and teamwork.
As it stands, Clan A can execute one strategy, on both sides, that effectively counters all other strategies. It comes down entirely to teamwork and deathmatching, as well as minor adaptations. So if you're playing vs. an alien team that goes sensory second, for example, you'll want to employ a lot of welding. However, keeping armor welded works just as well as a counter to D and M chambers. Similarly, any and all of the chamber types can be used as an effective counter to any marine strategy. It's <i>all</i> deathmatching and teamwork, and a team knowing how best to employ the small set of universal counters available to them. Strategic and tactical innovation are extremely limited, at best.
Hey! We just scrimmed you guys! <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Didn't get to play aliens, only got to comm.
We got slaughtered as marines, but I had a lot of fun.
Wow, didn't know this would turn into such a popular thread..
Suspensions League and Team of Player: Natural Selection : From The Ashes Players Real Name: Aaron Fetterhoff Players Handle: funbags SteamID: 0:1817918 IP: 70.58.82.13 Suspended: 6 months Reason: Use of 3rd party software
<!--QuoteBegin-DrFurious+Feb 8 2005, 09:40 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (DrFurious @ Feb 8 2005, 09:40 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Suspensions League and Team of Player: Natural Selection : From The Ashes Players Real Name: Aaron Fetterhoff Players Handle: funbags SteamID: 0:1817918 IP: 70.58.82.13 Suspended: 6 months Reason: Use of 3rd party software
THANKS FOR THE OPINION ON COMPETETIVE NS! <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> what did he use?
<!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> It prooves nothing. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> 100% accurate while you're looking at the gorge, move away to shoot at the oc chambers, snap back to the gorge without missing a bullet, and then while firing again at the gorge, you still don't miss a single shot. Sorry, but you have to miss atleast one bullet, the LMG isn't <i>that</i> accurate.
Grendel - please take my copy and paste here in the spirit in which it is meant, honest inquiry:
What are the characteristics people are looking at here as aimbotish? I believe milo, that he's got a key set that only a hook for ns sets, but - the people that were spectating weren't operating off that. As in, when shoe goes "nice bot" or whatever, he was looking at the way the guy's aim was working, not at keys set to "pige0n". I looked at it in 1/4 time and my general rule in the past has been that if bullets hit the wall, it's not a bot. And yet he's botting and bullets hit the wall, so: what's the deal? Those bullets that miss right before the fade kills him, for example. And why didn't the bot lock on to the gorge until death did they part?
Comments
IE: the commander seems to give that first heavy or "big gun" to the MVP of the team, or sometimes ONLY to the marines with the highest ratio.
It boggles my mind sometimes that a commander thinks that one person with a shotgun while all the others sport an lmg is some kind of advantage. whilist if all of them had shotguns, even the lamest of the team could **** up a kill or two with a simple spammage of meds <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Same with aliens, just because you're a good fade or lerk.. why does that exempt you from dropping an rt or hive once in a while and let someone else go lerk or fade for once? skill is based on practice, if those who are less-skilled never get to exercise those skills, then they shall stay in their "less-skilled" level and never exceed.
Those who pair up with their teamates become better known than those who rambo off and keep to themselves most of the time. sometimes they are not where they are needed, and it screws up the rhythm and puts a downer on the team, perhaps puts a grudge on you from the team whining "where were you?!"
p.s. i didn't know s-n-a-t-ch was censored ;x <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
A lot of times in tight games, resources are restricted because of the constant battle over nodes, RTs being taken down and rebuilt over and over again. Resources must be conserved and dished out accordingly, scarcely at times. Good commanders deal out those resources to marines who have proved to have a more damage over death ratio. There are times when good marines don't get the gear, they still adapt with their LMG.
As for rambos, there are dumb rambos of course that goes off to useless places, but there are 'rambos' who are aware of how a certain map works, goes to key points to hold back the skulk while waiting for more backup. Once a commander calls out the first hive, good and experienced marines will immediately realize which areas of the maps will be the chokepoints that round, etc.
It is great to have <insert fancy clantag here> member at building second hive, holding his own while he gets a PG up. This singel guy really makes the difference.
The rest of the pub team has an important function too: They annoy the aliens in odd places or love to take double, just because you are "supposed" to take dbl.
But in the end..the situational awareness (Part of the skill most clanners should have) of a single player helps me as a comm to win a game.
Skill is not only "aim, blink, and fast weaponswitch" but the ability to predict the next move of your enemy, second guess an ambushing skulks thoughts and camping in the right places.
mfg
Lance <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
you still take a risk directing that one marine to build you up a pg/turret factory/rt if no one phases.. which happens sometimes. Good marines are not invulnerable to ambush attacks either, they screw up as all players do. why put all your eggs in one basket. I recommend always pairing up in groups of 2 no matter the skill level.
My team can't get a PG close to the second hive on a PUB? I go for res control and tech to HA. Or I use a team to distract at second hive and have one guy getting a Pg at their start hive...
About pairing up: I WOULD tell them to pair up, but more often than not there already IS a guy (clanner) at the place I need him.
mfg
Lance
However, good marines don't adapt for the worse just because they're in pub play, that would be pure stupidity. It's like saying, "Oh I'm in a pub now, let me use bad strategies to help my team lose." Good marines will continue to try to hold known choke points, hamper the alien team's resources, etc. That's a key strategy in all of NS, telling a good player, clanner or not, to adapt by doing stupid stuff like locking down one hive while letting the aliens rampage through the other half of the map goes against good thinking. Same as building base turrets, why would you 'adapt' by wasting precious early game minutes building turrets in base while you can be out contesting key nodes with aliens, you don't adapt to a sure-lose strategy. You dont' adapt down a level, you always adapt up to try to win.
Edit Add-on: Great explanation, Lancelot.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Maybe I wasn’t that clear: You’re socially nothing more worth than other players only because you have more skill.
And I don’t say you should adept for the worse.
Your skill and ability to adept the mechanics of the game are only one side of the coin on a public server. If you play on a public you have other factor how are also very important like the team play. That’s includes also that you should try to be a part of the team and don’t just go your own way. Even if it’s the right way but nobody follows you its only semi-optimal. I have seen lower skilled player convinced other players to follow him doing the right thing. Maybe he had not the same kill count as you would be able to archive, but his performance was very valuable. He was able to do it because he had a good social status and the other players know that he know the game – aside he has not the best aiming.
You won’t get a good social status in the current group of players if you play on public servers all others muted, never using voice, faking and just doing your own thing. And many clanner play it that way on public servers.
Most clanners adept the game mechanics very good and fast – but they are probable only semi-optimal player on a public server.
If I’m commander I also support that kind of clanners because they perform well and give me often the chance for a phase gate at the right position. On the other side – lower skilled marines in pairs can archive the same.
One thing I don't understand is why do you keep relating skill to killcount. Killcount only resembles part of a skilled player. As Lancelot pointed out, aiming is only a part of being a skilled player, situational awareness is even more important, mid-game strategy recognization is usually what separates the above average players with the good players.
Like you said, above average players might just rambo around to get up the kill count, but the good players will usually go to the places that are necessary. This has nothing to do with social status and whatnot, they do what is needed in a game to win, because to them winning is fun. Some players don't need to win to have fun, more power to them.
Most clanners mute everyone except for the commander if the commander is competent. There are more reasons to it than because they are being elitists. It's because of the harrassment they get from most of the public servers they go to. I won't go into detail about the harrassment because it'll turn into another flaming debate which Nem0 stated he doesn't want. You say that perhaps a marine with lower kill counts and lower aiming ability will know to go to the right places, getting those with higher kill counts and higher aiming ability to follow. Good players, by the whole definition, are probably already there or heading there, because they also know that the particular location is vital to the success of the team.
One thing I don't understand is why do you keep relating skill to killcount. Killcount only resembles part of a skilled player. As Lancelot pointed out, aiming is only a part of being a skilled player, situational awareness is even more important, mid-game strategy recognization is usually what separates the above average players with the good players. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I’m aware that there are other skills than aiming like the situation awareness or for example movement skill, map knowledge. But especially on a public you have other important skills like social skills, communication skills and probable more.
If you don’t want that the commander wasting unnecessary resources on sentries you have to convince him by communication skills. If you are well known and respected player on that server (social status) it will be easier for you.
If you fake, mute all others and never use voice you’re not able to use these skills. Also if you play that way on public servers the other team members may won’t consider you as a part of the team. I would feel myself as very limited if I play that way as I’m not that good aimer but have good situation awareness.
Natural Selection is very unique in the way of possible skills you can use for the advantage of your team.
Also I think that playing that way doesn’t help to develop a better relationship between the competitive and casual scene. And the casual players have to stop harass player only because they’re skilled.
At least everyone is a semi-optimal player in Natural Selection <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->.
I'd take a 12 year old Laphroaig any day though. And no freaking ice, stop your american blasphemy.
My team can't get a PG close to the second hive on a PUB? I go for res control and tech to HA. Or I use a team to distract at second hive and have one guy getting a Pg at their start hive...
About pairing up: I WOULD tell them to pair up, but more often than not there already IS a guy (clanner) at the place I need him.
mfg
Lance <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
you should always have the res to compensate for that pg/tf or whatever. i see a lot of people doing hive rushes sporting two rt's.. it's a waste of time. Even if you managed to get that hive down, you're quickly encountered by fades/skulks/lerks thereafter and lack the sufficient funds to lock it down or even medpack your team for that matter.
Keeping up the pressure allows me to get nodes and keep them.
Of course your objections are valid. But I never said I wouldnt get nodes.
mfg
Lance
Keeping up the pressure allows me to get nodes and keep them.
Of course your objections are valid. But I never said I wouldnt get nodes.
mfg
Lance <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
we're referring to the more early states of the game..
Last season, Rumblefish stole a round from [HAD] by sense rushing them. [HAD] was TOTALLY out of rF's league at this point in time. It was totally unorthodox, totally crazy, and some people could say, cheap.
But the point is that one team beat another team with a strat and not deathmatching skillz.
Rumblefish tried the same strat on ET and they countered by selling base and relocating to the middle hive. They forced a midgame in which our late fades died with no dc's and they easily dispatched our 2nd hive which was sewer on caged, cause we were trying to defend it all the way from generator hive.
That was them out strat-ing our crazy strat.
so get out of here with your no RTS in NS garbage.
I would rather be a solo rambo pressuring a choke point than follow the pubbers in improper strategy. I refuse to feed the bears.
It is insulting to ask the clanners to reverse addapt to the pubbers playstyle just so the round can be won.
The fact of the matter is it is easiest for the pub commander to just give the clanner the meds and ammo when he asks and let him go on his way. The pub players will naturaly follow the better players.
Clanners are less than optimal in a pub??
---Maybe from the point of view of a pubber that does not understand quality play.
Let me insure you, EVERYONE else is less than optimal from the point of view of the clanner (besides maybe those commanders that just drop ammo and meds, clanners love those).
No one is against closing the skill gap.
NS is the only community I have ever heard of that puts the blame of skill seperation on the skilled community. It is the responsibility of the indevidual player to seek improvement; it is not the job of everyone else to force someone to improve.
The competative community is more than helpfull to new players willing to improve. But like any skilled group they hold little respect for those players that do not want to improve.
The same happens in NS. but actualy Cal-M could own almost an entire team of the average pub.
Right now your seeing the gap between the "Cal-I" nsplayers, "Cal-M" nsplayers, and ns-pubbers.
in CS balance of teams isn't questioned as much as NSs. mainly because in CS both teams have just about the same equipment, and very similar. While in NS the teams are vastly diffrent thus most people to not see it.
Skill is just that. A skill. Something one gets by refineing their abilities in an area, (I.E. Natural-Selection) and becoming better than others at. If one was to limit it to simple "stratigies" that ALWAYS won or lost a game despite skill factors, the game would grow boring and stale, incredibly fast.
If anything, NS needs MORE skill differentiation. That includes smart strats, smart play, and smart ability. The rewards, for being the best LMGer in the world, more often than not are not going to save you from that cara walker fade.
But the current balance of required skill to win, really is quite nice right now. Teamwork, as you've put it, IS a skill in itself, and once one realize they don't need to be on top of eachother to work as a proficent team, one can realize how to better themselves at this game.
Failure to adapt, you might say.
Even dn's phase and shotgun rush on t wasn't analogous, that's been around since 2.01.
This is an all but impossible dream, though. I can only think of one RTS with a similar property, and that's TA. And even in TA, there were a couple hard counters that worked on just about everything, and a whole lot of TA was economy management and throwing hordes of fidos/pheonixes at the other guy. But there were definitely strange tech orders and tactical decisions you could make that could win you the game.
No one is against closing the skill gap.
NS is the only community I have ever heard of that puts the blame of skill seperation on the skilled community. It is the responsibility of the indevidual player to seek improvement; it is not the job of everyone else to force someone to improve.
The competative community is more than helpfull to new players willing to improve. But like any skilled group they hold little respect for those players that do not want to improve. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Homicide gets it perfectly in that post.
There are at least 3 teams/clans that I know of who are being mentored by established CAL-Delta clans and a 4th which is sort of half mentored & half standing on their own.
If someone asks our clan to show them how to play competitively or asks for help to perfect some of their skills then 90% of the time we'll happily oblige by getting them on our Ventrilo & our clan server and doing exactly that & I'm sure other clans & players have done too.
NSlearn (http://www.nslearn.org/ & #nslearn on Gamesurge) was set up by mostly members from Terror to provide help & training for people wishing to improve their game.
Yes we're clearly "against the goal of reducing the skill gap and bringing novices and pros closer together".
This is 'General Competitive Discussion' not 'Please whine about competitive players from your preconceptions of them in your favourite pub server'
Imagine there exist two clans, A and B, such that:
1. Clan A's deathmatching and teamwork are demonstrably superior to clan B. By this I mean the average clan A shooter will always cover his teammates from the most effective position, kill a skulk in five fewer bullets than his clan B counterpart, ambush with a higher degree of synchronicity, and so on.
2. Clan B can nevertheless steal a round or a game from clan A by surprising them with Strategy Q for which there is a Counter P that clan A does not know. Which is to say that if Clan A employed Counter P, they would win because of their superior deathmatching and teamwork.
As it stands, Clan A can execute one strategy, on both sides, that effectively counters all other strategies. It comes down entirely to teamwork and deathmatching, as well as minor adaptations. So if you're playing vs. an alien team that goes sensory second, for example, you'll want to employ a lot of welding. However, keeping armor welded works just as well as a counter to D and M chambers. Similarly, any and all of the chamber types can be used as an effective counter to any marine strategy. It's <i>all</i> deathmatching and teamwork, and a team knowing how best to employ the small set of universal counters available to them. Strategic and tactical innovation are extremely limited, at best.
Didn't get to play aliens, only got to comm.
We got slaughtered as marines, but I had a lot of fun.
Wow, didn't know this would turn into such a popular thread..
League and Team of Player: Natural Selection : From The Ashes
Players Real Name: Aaron Fetterhoff
Players Handle: funbags
SteamID: 0:1817918
IP: 70.58.82.13
Suspended: 6 months
Reason: Use of 3rd party software
THANKS FOR THE OPINION ON COMPETETIVE NS!
League and Team of Player: Natural Selection : From The Ashes
Players Real Name: Aaron Fetterhoff
Players Handle: funbags
SteamID: 0:1817918
IP: 70.58.82.13
Suspended: 6 months
Reason: Use of 3rd party software
THANKS FOR THE OPINION ON COMPETETIVE NS! <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
what did he use?
<!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> It prooves nothing.
I can't believe they only banned you for 6 months...
<!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> It prooves nothing. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
100% accurate while you're looking at the gorge, move away to shoot at the oc chambers, snap back to the gorge without missing a bullet, and then while firing again at the gorge, you still don't miss a single shot. Sorry, but you have to miss atleast one bullet, the LMG isn't <i>that</i> accurate.
Drop the subject please guys.
What are the characteristics people are looking at here as aimbotish? I believe milo, that he's got a key set that only a hook for ns sets, but - the people that were spectating weren't operating off that. As in, when shoe goes "nice bot" or whatever, he was looking at the way the guy's aim was working, not at keys set to "pige0n". I looked at it in 1/4 time and my general rule in the past has been that if bullets hit the wall, it's not a bot. And yet he's botting and bullets hit the wall, so: what's the deal? Those bullets that miss right before the fade kills him, for example. And why didn't the bot lock on to the gorge until death did they part?