WoW... this thread is still going. Let me remind you that if a new player takes a unit from a game and does literally nothing with it before dieing, and a skilled player takes that same unit... isn't it BALANCED?
Of course, unless you feel that the fade is <i>impossible</i> to kill providing equal skill levels... which i would disagree on. Good marine players will hold shotties in the background, hidden from the fade as he enters the room (baiting with 1-2 LA/LMG rines). Good marine players will move to block the fade's exit as soon as he enters the room. Good Comms will have a GL spamming the exit. Good Comms will have "Onos Traps" (where you throw a pack of mines in nearly the same spot) setup to take out the fade as he enters (to weaken and then take him out with a quick burst of weapons fire) or as he exits (when he is weak from the weapons fire).
You make it sound as though jesus himself was playing Fade and you are unable to kill him... if that happens, well you got beat then... thats a massive amount of skill you dont have.
as already mentionend the point is not the fade being to strong but the gap between skulk and fade being just too large. In NS games most of the game is done between the fades and the marines...skulks are just walking res for the marines, their ability of even just ambushing is annihilated by the first 2 or 3 rine upgrades.
The only problem I have with the fade is the early fade.
Theorectically in a 10v10 game, 4 aliens can save up their res and if they are half decent (with the other 6 not res-whoring), they'll get enough res from kills to go fade within the 3-5 minute mark.
Having 4 fades around marine start within 5 minutes is just a little much IMO. They're the second highest life form on the Kharaa and the aliens should not be able to evolve to them that early into the game.
The 7-8 minute two hive onos is a little too early too.
your talking about a 10v10 game... the problem lies in the fact that there are more players starting with 25 res... however the res flow is damn near none existant unless you control half the map. its true though, if the aliens can keep about4 out of the 6 starting res nodes the aliens can get 2-3 fades while the last saves for onos... those usually clear up the map allowing more room for gorges to snag res... maybe get a 2nd hive. By the time that happens you have an onos and 1-3 Fades (depending if they died or not) and maybe a 2nd hive. Get one of the builders to save for lerk and umbra your GOLDEN <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif' /><!--endemo-->
No, I don't think fades are overpowered. 3 marines with shotties are still an excellent counter to a good fade. 2 rines with shotties are an excellent counter to a mediocre fade.
Uberfade games were possible in 2.01, where fade had a very fast blink that wasn't affected by gravity and hitbox was tiny. Now, with blink nerf, and increased fade size, games like that aren't possible even against newbies - even newbies can hit the huge hitbox that fade has. Unless they're running rambo all the time, of course, but in that case the game is already won. Generally even a half decent squad of 4 marines with lmgs and lvl1 armor is a serious threat to a non-focus fade if commander knows how to support it properly. Good squad of three players with shotguns means almost certain death to a lonely fade trying a direct assault - you won't get a chance to land more then 2 swipes or so. Zak's post is borderline fantasy, I'm guessing that was both a 2.01 game and marines were total noobs. I did personally get a few 40+/~2-3 frag/death ratio games myself as a fade, but in those games you could tell it in two minutes after the game start that teams got skill-stacked in favor of aliens.
ShockehIf a packet drops on the web and nobody's near to see it...Join Date: 2002-11-19Member: 9336NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Constellation
I feel the problem lies with resources more than the Fade itself.
Simply put, a single HA/HMG represents a huge investment (far more than a single Fade) yet a single Fade is far more effective. Both are fairly multipurpose, yet we're seeing no running battles between aliens & marines anymore because every battle is already decided by the time they start.
Either the marines are blatantly going to win (most aliens are skulk, maybe a Fade and a single Onos which get chewed) or the marines are toasted because there's multiple Onos and 3 of the team get devoured in the first 3 seconds.
There's no middle ground to allow for the sort of 'battle' scale fights we saw in the 1.x era.
Combat specific however, I'd say Fades are easily overpowered overall. The learning curve is a jump. New fades are fodder, experienced Fades are near unkillable. Once again, no middle ground. However, this is an opinion I hold for CO only, not NS.
*Gussish blinks in, swipes killing a marine afer 3 hits.
Marine2: 0MG
*Gussish blinks away *Repeats
But anything is possible in a public server, I have had to blink away 5 times out of 7 to just kill 1 single HA because he jumped backwards and sideways while my poor fade was being shot and barely could move due to 'shock' (weapons slow you down when your shot as onos/fade), so I blinked and healed.........repeatidly and with focus swipe killed him on my next 'drive by' as I put it.
<!--QuoteBegin-Shockwave+Apr 7 2004, 06:41 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Shockwave @ Apr 7 2004, 06:41 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Simply put, a single HA/HMG represents a huge investment (far more than a single Fade) yet a single Fade is far more effective. Both are fairly multipurpose, yet we're seeing no running battles between aliens & marines anymore because every battle is already decided by the time they start. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> If I have an HMG I can waste a fade in under 2 seconds.
I think HA are very useful, and a fade will never kill a pair of them who are welding other than suciding on them, or they suck terribly.
ShockehIf a packet drops on the web and nobody's near to see it...Join Date: 2002-11-19Member: 9336NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Constellation
<!--QuoteBegin-Forlorn+Apr 7 2004, 03:09 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Forlorn @ Apr 7 2004, 03:09 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Shockwave+Apr 7 2004, 06:41 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Shockwave @ Apr 7 2004, 06:41 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Simply put, a single HA/HMG represents a huge investment (far more than a single Fade) yet a single Fade is far more effective. Both are fairly multipurpose, yet we're seeing no running battles between aliens & marines anymore because every battle is already decided by the time they start. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> If I have an HMG I can waste a fade in under 2 seconds.
I think HA are very useful, and a fade will never kill a pair of them who are welding other than suciding on them, or they suck terribly. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Funny, I don't recall saying anything about a pair Forlorn. And I also didn't say they aren't useful, just not as much as a Fade.
The theory is scalable too. Two HA/HMG die to two Fades who alternate attacks, as sooner or later the HA need to reload.
But thanks as usual for suggesting I was saying something I wasn't.
<!--QuoteBegin-Shockwave+Apr 7 2004, 09:37 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Shockwave @ Apr 7 2004, 09:37 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Forlorn+Apr 7 2004, 03:09 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Forlorn @ Apr 7 2004, 03:09 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Shockwave+Apr 7 2004, 06:41 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Shockwave @ Apr 7 2004, 06:41 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Simply put, a single HA/HMG represents a huge investment (far more than a single Fade) yet a single Fade is far more effective. Both are fairly multipurpose, yet we're seeing no running battles between aliens & marines anymore because every battle is already decided by the time they start. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If I have an HMG I can waste a fade in under 2 seconds.
I think HA are very useful, and a fade will never kill a pair of them who are welding other than suciding on them, or they suck terribly. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Funny, I don't recall saying anything about a pair Forlorn. And I also didn't say they aren't useful, just not as much as a Fade.
The theory is scalable too. Two HA/HMG die to two Fades who alternate attacks, as sooner or later the HA need to reload.
But thanks as usual for suggesting I was saying something I wasn't. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> If the fade blinks all the way up to you to swipe, and you have an HMG, then you have enough time to kill him. More than enough, actually.
One skilled HA is more than a match for a fade. The fade needs to use distractions or make sure he fights in very close quarter area's where he can run away quickly.
Also, two HA/HMGs or whatever can definatly beat two fades, focus fire kills a fade even faster.
This only pertains to regular NS, of course.
And the fades can have either one or two hives in these examples.
perhaps if the marines are fully upgraded and the aliens have one hive, but otherwise thats just not that case dude. if the fades have meta, or are fighting near a hive, or near DCs, or a gorg, they will be able to keep an almost constant attack going between them. even if the marines take turns reloading and covering theyll just not have the time to weld.
STOP COMPARING THE TWO TEAMS... they are totally different in just about every way, shape and form. Yes the Fade costs 50 res... but thats slowly gained from dividing the res from the towers between ALL aliens (and RFK). Marine's res is all pooled into one big lump. So the alien team might have 100+ res... but it doesn't do much because 10 players each have 10 res. Thats an extreme though.
perhaps if the marines are fully upgraded and the aliens have one hive, but otherwise thats just not that case dude. if the fades have meta, or are fighting near a hive, or near DCs, or a gorg, they will be able to keep an almost constant attack going between them. even if the marines take turns reloading and covering theyll just not have the time to weld. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Lets say you have lv. 2 shotties. This is how long it takes to kill a fade:
Shotgun's <a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=63997&view=findpost&p=946188' target='_blank'>ROF:</a> .67 secs per shot.
Now, since your argument is that fades are coming in so damn fast from healing, then lets assume two things:
1.) They aren't at a hive, 2 HA would lose at their hive, I agree on this for sure, hive is very powerful
2.) They have regen, because if they had carapace then they would have a larger downtime with just meta, and so the HA's have time to weld and reload.
Amount of lv. 2 shots to kill a hive 2 fade from <a href='http://www.nonoobs.com/damage.php' target='_blank'>this damage sim:</a>
34 attacks, or 4 blasts, but it's actually just 3 blasts and 4 pellets. But whatever, 4 shots to kill a fade.
So basically, it's two shots from each HA. Or, 1.34 seconds.
There are exactly 3 times to get a direct shot on a fade who is attacking you:
- On his way in, next to you, and on his way out.
- One skilled SG can nail three SG's if he's good, I might add.
So basically, a fade gets hit on the way in, and gets hit next to the marine's. Dead.
Or, the fade gets hit next to the marine's, and gets hit again on the way out. Dead.
Or, the fade gets hit on the way in, and on the way out. Dead.
Keep in mind this is syncronized shooting, but this easier than you may think.
Lets say the marine's are not equal in skill. One marine sucks pretty bad and the other is a good shot.
The good marine hits the fade 3 times, on the way in, next to them, and on the way out. Meanwhile, the sucky player just has to deal 62 damage (that's all a fade has after 3 shots) and the fade is toast.
HMG's at lv. 2 versus hive 2 fades:
Again, same assumptions:
1.) Not at hive 2.) Have regen
HMG's ROF = .067 28 attacks to kill fade
or, 14 per person
14 shots come out in .938 seconds (even faster than the Shotties (HMG's rock))
Also, keep in mind the HMG's range is just about unlimited against fades in all practical purposes, as the fade's enourmous hitbox (even when crouched) can be covered with an HMG. So basically, as long as the fade is in your view, he can be hit by the HMG.
Also, it's much easier to combine firepower from HMG marines than SG marines.
Again, the conclusion here is not only are the fades are at a serious disadvantage against HMG's, but much more so than the SG's.
The fade, believe it or not, never has the advantage in these situations. I understand that the numbers cannot hope to compensate for every situation, but the stats clearly indicate the fade is at a major disadvantage against SG's, moreso to HMG's, nevermind HA SG's/HMG's, which give the marines even more time to kill a fade who decides to linger by.
There's one major problem with your post forlorn, that effectively kills your point: you assume extreme accuracy. Do not forget that only totally noob fades will blink into your group - skilled ones will blink around and above at angles where your shotgun will have almost no power due to pellet spread. Once your loaded ammo is exausted, fades dive in. I've personally lead a 2-fade assault on a 3-5 ha 3/3 train several times against good players, and in the mess that is blinking/slashing around, shotguns simply cannot be wielded effectively. Hmg is a weapon to fear far more then a shotgun in small HA groups. Even if you forget the shotgun bug, majority of shooting will happen from either far enough to be effective (most pellets miss) or so close that the attacked marine absorbs most of them (assuming you come fomr a correct angle, which is a skill on its own). And don't forget the miniscule 8 bullet clip either. And you simply cannot engage an incoming/exting fade with shotgun - range is insuffcient, and you won't be switching to the pistol in the heat of the battle.
HMGs in good hands tend to rape fades rather badly though. Albeit I seriously wonder how you would kill a fade with hmg in 2 seconds alone (well, if he is standing still and you're close-by, maybe...)
Generally I suppose it's possible for a small ha/sg squad to survive a couple of fades in a place with a lot of large space all around. But it's the fade that gets to choose the term of engagement, not the HA squad, and no fade that's worth the resourses he spent on himself will ever engage a HA squad in open areas.
It's not the fade's ability (or lack thereof) to engage squads of well-armoured, well-equipped marines that's the main problem - it's the ability for 4 of them (as seen in a game played not 5 minutes ago) to appear before 2nd hive and rip apart every marine outpost (pgs by elec rt, pg in hive protected by turrets.. ) and then blink away before anything could be done about it. In the early game they were not dominating res, they were not racking up masses of kills compared to marines. They had a few nice people who bothered with dcs and rts to begin with and the rest went fade. gg! To me this is a serious balance issue that has less to do with individual fade power and more to do with too many fades too soon. <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin-Lucky_+Apr 7 2004, 03:32 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Lucky_ @ Apr 7 2004, 03:32 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> There's one major problem with your post forlorn, that effectively kills your point: you assume extreme accuracy. Do not forget that only totally noob fades will blink into your group - skilled ones will blink around and above at angles where your shotgun will have almost no power due to pellet spread. Once your loaded ammo is exausted, fades dive in. I've personally lead a 2-fade assault on a 3-5 ha 3/3 train several times against good players, and in the mess that is blinking/slashing around, shotguns simply cannot be wielded effectively. Hmg is a weapon to fear far more then a shotgun in small HA groups. Even if you forget the shotgun bug, majority of shooting will happen from either far enough to be effective (most pellets miss) or so close that the attacked marine absorbs most of them (assuming you come fomr a correct angle, which is a skill on its own). And don't forget the miniscule 8 bullet clip either. And you simply cannot engage an incoming/exting fade with shotgun - range is insuffcient, and you won't be switching to the pistol in the heat of the battle.
HMGs in good hands tend to rape fades rather badly though. Albeit I seriously wonder how you would kill a fade with hmg in 2 seconds alone (well, if he is standing still and you're close-by, maybe...)
Generally I suppose it's possible for a small ha/sg squad to survive a couple of fades in a place with a lot of large space all around. But it's the fade that gets to choose the term of engagement, not the HA squad, and no fade that's worth the resourses he spent on himself will ever engage a HA squad in open areas. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> If the fades are just blinking around beyond your effective range, the solution is simple:
<i>Don't shoot them!</i>
Focus on the skulks, and also I don't know what you consider to be your effective range with a SG, but trust me against the enourmous fade hitboxes it is very big. You can score about 8 pellets out of your 10 on a fade who is at the top of maintanence hive in ns_eclipse if you are on the mid level (like the bridges per se).
It's actually not that hard to hit a fade, and once you get the hang of it they die very quickly.
I'm like to remind you that pellet spread is totally random. Heck, you probably can kill a lerk in two shots from 5 meters with a shotgun, as long as you get lucky. Or you can miss him totally. Same with fade at range. And I didn't say "outside" the range, I said "on the edge", as shotgun will still hit. That is usually enough of insentive to shoot even for experienced players. And with him being a good fade, he'll have regeneration, mostly negating the incoming damage. Random pellet spread is a funny thing - sometimes you can frag a skulk in one shot from far away, and sometimes almost point blank shots miss completely. It has ablsolutely nothing to do with player's accuracy.
I'd also like to point out that fade's hitbox is only big from front/rear and somewhat big from left and right sides. It's quite small from top/bottom. Which is why many skilled fades grab adrenaline and stay close to the ceiling when blinking into the engagement.
And one more thing that you missed about my post - correct angle of attack. At almost any given time during the fight, there's always 1-2 marines that form a peak of a very steep angled triangle with the rest of the squad ....F ....T .../ \ ../ M \ .M----M
F: fade T: Target marine M: rest of the squad (random positions within the triangle)
This means that there's only 1 marine that can shoot at you effectively - your target. Rest will waste their ammo because the majority of pellets will get absorbed by target's hitbox. But spotting and engagning those guys in the middle of the ever-flowing change of the formation in the battle is a skill on its own.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->This means that there's only 1 marine that can shoot at you effectively - your target. Rest will waste their ammo because the majority of pellets will get absorbed by target's hitbox. But spotting and engagning those guys in the middle of the ever-flowing change of the formation in the battle is a skill on its own. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is why a small group of marines (eg. 2) will tear a fade to pieces in one or two seconds (given they are at full health/armor - in most of these situations in combat games fades come out on top because the marines are already injured). Personally I find fades rather amusing as long as I am not stuck in marine spawn with five marines blocking my line of fire.
This only goes for combat fades because classic fades are no threat for decent marines (with upgrades).
<!--QuoteBegin-Lucky_+Apr 9 2004, 05:13 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Lucky_ @ Apr 9 2004, 05:13 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I'm like to remind you that pellet spread is totally random. Heck, you probably can kill a lerk in two shots from 5 meters with a shotgun, as long as you get lucky. Or you can miss him totally. Same with fade at range. And I didn't say "outside" the range, I said "on the edge", as shotgun will still hit. That is usually enough of insentive to shoot even for experienced players. And with him being a good fade, he'll have regeneration, mostly negating the incoming damage. Random pellet spread is a funny thing - sometimes you can frag a skulk in one shot from far away, and sometimes almost point blank shots miss completely. It has ablsolutely nothing to do with player's accuracy.
I'd also like to point out that fade's hitbox is only big from front/rear and somewhat big from left and right sides. It's quite small from top/bottom. Which is why many skilled fades grab adrenaline and stay close to the ceiling when blinking into the engagement.
And one more thing that you missed about my post - correct angle of attack. At almost any given time during the fight, there's always 1-2 marines that form a peak of a very steep angled triangle with the rest of the squad ....F ....T .../ \ ../ M \ .M----M
F: fade T: Target marine M: rest of the squad (random positions within the triangle)
This means that there's only 1 marine that can shoot at you effectively - your target. Rest will waste their ammo because the majority of pellets will get absorbed by target's hitbox. But spotting and engagning those guys in the middle of the ever-flowing change of the formation in the battle is a skill on its own. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Actually the pellet spread is not random; go shoot a hive see where the pellet marks are. The actual spread of the shotgun seems to be very consistant.
Also, regen doesn't negate damage done to the fade, as long as you keep injuring him, his armor level will drop, and his HP will stay close to full; and hp is a joke compared to armor. The fade of 3.00 is nothing like the fade of 2.01, where blinking around having shots miss you by the masses while you regened is gone. Staying in the firing zone of shotguns or even LMG's will eventually kill you in 3.00 against good shots.
Also, I know when a fade is blinking against the ceiling, he will be a smaller target, but only if you are standing directly underneath him.
The angles of attack also are something that you have to work out beforehand and put yourself away from other marines.
Yeah, on crappy pubs marines tend to bunch up like a little fruity grape, its disgusting. Its like all of a sudden everything people learned in normal social life about intimacy and comfort zones was forgotten, and we're all cuddling up while discharging firearms - with predictably catastrophic results.
The Fade itself isn't even remotely an overpowered lifeform - if anything, the current Hive 1 Skulk is annoyingly underpowered (against anything but the 0/0 marine), leaving the Fade as the only real option to not get raped past 3:00 into the game.
The best solution to this would probably be to just remove or lower knockback - especially midair knockback while strafing in the bite direction (right if you're facing the Skulk, left if you're running away).
Edit : On pellet spread, I doubt the clientside graphic is that reliable an indicator, so yes its down to luck how your shotgun spreads. Even the types of hitgraphics you see (sparks vs blood) don't help, as often times sparking does damage, and hell I've seen kills via spark-hits (This coming from some extensive testing done on an empty co server with 2 Fogeys, drawdamage on and checking back and forth for damage dealt vs visual effect. FYI the fade crouchbug was also entirely reproducable there).
Have to wonder why this topic is still here... <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin-Forlorn+Apr 9 2004, 02:24 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Forlorn @ Apr 9 2004, 02:24 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Actually the pellet spread is not random; go shoot a hive see where the pellet marks are. The actual spread of the shotgun seems to be very consistant.
Also, regen doesn't negate damage done to the fade, as long as you keep injuring him, his armor level will drop, and his HP will stay close to full; and hp is a joke compared to armor. The fade of 3.00 is nothing like the fade of 2.01, where blinking around having shots miss you by the masses while you regened is gone. Staying in the firing zone of shotguns or even LMG's will eventually kill you in 3.00 against good shots.
Also, I know when a fade is blinking against the ceiling, he will be a smaller target, but only if you are standing directly underneath him.
The angles of attack also are something that you have to work out beforehand and put yourself away from other marines. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Like a post below indicates, the spread IS random - the client graphics do not represent the actual spread. No, it's pretty narutal that damage is not fully negated, but with shotguns in play, a skilled fade will not lose much armor, and will still retain almost full HP when actually entering the combat in my scenario. It takes a degree of skill to stay fast enough, and it won't work when there are good lmg shooters in the squad though, just as you mentioned. Angles of attack are NOT something you can work beforehand - if you have to do that, that means you've already lost the engagement. The formation starts shifting the very moment squad spots the fade, and will continue to change for the duration of the entire engagement. That is why I said that it's a skill on its own to be able to know how to find such target marine after they spot you and start moving, and keep the him between you and the rest of the squad while you slash him.
One more thing - the less people there is in a squad, the easier it is for a fade to keep the target marine between him and the rest of the squad. Sqaud consisting of two people is the easiest. Granted most pub fades don't even grasp the need to approach the enemy from the side or a blind spot, instead going for celerity and blinking straight into the target marine, so expecting finesse like this from them is foolish.
Actually, it's quite quite difficult to keep a marine between you and the rest of the other marines, simply because marines can quickly move themselves to make sure aliens stay in the line of fire.
Here we can see the marine displaces himself so that he is now at a diagnonal to the other marine. Fade is now prime target material. If the marines are fast and accurate enough, fade dies.
However, lets see the fade does not fall for the old 'toro' trick:
It may seem unpractical to see this, but keep in mind it's just as impractical to assume the same level of thinking from the fade. What I just gave you is high level play.
Still, no matter how you look at it, the fade is at the disadvantage. The number one way the fade wins? That's easy; it's if the marine's mess up.
True. However by the time enemy has started regrouping, you should be in the ceiling once again (which is why celerity is a huge nerf for high-level fade play - you simply run out of adrenaline). Not to mention that you can move as well, and with LA marines you only need 3-4 swipes at high-level play, and you can compensate for enemy movement with quick blink/slash switches. It gets exponentially harder to pull this off with multiple marines though, but with 2-3 marines, it's very feasible due to the speed of the fade and the fact that it takes a few moments for marines to realize what is wrong even in high level play. Generally, any death can be calssified as "messing up". Messing up by walking into a trap, not paying attention to the ceiling, missing too many shots, wandering off alone. Everything is about who messes up.
<!--QuoteBegin-Lucky_+Apr 9 2004, 06:49 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Lucky_ @ Apr 9 2004, 06:49 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> True. However by the time enemy has started regrouping, you should be in the ceiling once again (which is why celerity is a huge nerf for high-level fade play - you simply run out of adrenaline). Not to mention that you can move as well, and with LA marines you only need 3-4 swipes at high-level play, and you can compensate for enemy movement with quick blink/slash switches. It gets exponentially harder to pull this off with multiple marines though, but with 2-3 marines, it's very feasible due to the speed of the fade and the fact that it takes a few moments for marines to realize what is wrong even in high level play. Generally, any death can be calssified as "messing up". Messing up by walking into a trap, not paying attention to the ceiling, missing too many shots, wandering off alone. Everything is about who messes up. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Celerity is my movement upgrade of choice for the fade in 3.00. A faster fade is one who is out of danger that much faster. Metabolize also gives you energy, meaning that needed adren to recover energy back isn't nessesary.
Also, my other clanmates almost exclusively use celerity for fades.
I play in high level play all the time. I see some top fades prefer adren, and others prefer celerity. Still, I think celerity is the best movement upgrade for fades, but it's up for debate.
An adren fade who just blinks in circles around you; I can still hit him dead on with well timed shots meaning it's not that big of a threat. Meanwhile, a celerity fade who blinks in so fast and out so fast that I cannot shoot more than 2 shots before he leaves, poses a much bigger threat to me.
I strongly believe that currently in classic the fade is more or less ballanced. The problem is not that he is overpowering, but that he is generaly bad for gameplay. What I mean by this, is that the road he has forced the devs down is a ballanced one, but not a very fun one. It it not fun for so much of the game to be desided by a single person, it is not fun for there to be a single tactic that is used in all clan games, it is not fun for a whole marine team to be more or less pinned down while there is a single fade alive.
The biggest problem with the fade is his mobility gained from blink. The 1.X fades were so powerful because the combination of a semi-powerful ranged attack and the ability to out run non jetpack equiped marines meant it would never die. Now that the fade is melee based this isn't as big a problem as it was before.
<i>I believe that a radical change to the fade would make NS much more enjoyable, but the risk of upsetting the whole ballance of the game is so great that the change is most likely not worth it.</i>
Right now the problem is not the power of the fade, as since high end marines with jetpacks, heavy armor, or hmgs can often take it down, but the speed at which the fade is gotten. If the fade is to be weakened, it needs to only be in the early game stages. The best way to do this, is to tie the fade more heavily to hives. While all other aliens get much better at the second hive (leap, bilebomb, umbra, stomp) the fade isn't much stronger.
One suggestion I have thought of (and it seems others have as well) is to switch the placement of blink and metabolize. Alone this makes the fade much weaker until the second hive is finnished. However, in the big picture this will also reduce the need for defense chambers as the first chamber. The fade is the sole reason defense chambers are picked as the first chamber and if fades are able to heal by themselves than I believe sensory chambers and movement chambers may become viable as first hive chambers. Yet, if this changes is combined with a reduction in the cost hive construction (be it in the price of the hive, or the gorge) or build time of the hive I think that it would reduce the weakness of the fade and encourage aliens to get another hive, instead of simply another fade.
I should also note that if the switch of blink and metabolize was made, it would also increase the amount of time before a fade showed up in combat.
One suggestion I have thought of (and it seems others have as well) is to switch the placement of blink and metabolize. Alone this makes the fade much weaker until the second hive is finnished. However, in the big picture this will also reduce the need for defense chambers as the first chamber. The fade is the sole reason defense chambers are picked as the first chamber and if fades are able to heal by themselves than I believe sensory chambers and movement chambers may become viable as first hive chambers. Yet, if this changes is combined with a reduction in the cost hive construction (be it in the price of the hive, or the gorge) or build time of the hive I think that it would reduce the weakness of the fade and encourage aliens to get another hive, instead of simply another fade.
I should also note that if the switch of blink and metabolize was made, it would also increase the amount of time before a fade showed up in combat. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> That actually makes a LOT of sense. In 1.04 the blink of the fade was tied to the second hive. So if you lost it, you weren't totally screwed (because AR was 2nd slot weapon) but your mobility was greatly crippled. Now if Blink and Metabolize was switched, it would basically mean a whole new game of tactics (different chambers instead of the normal D-M-S).
you might as well just make Fade a 2 hive only evolution, your paying for a slower, weaker, bigger skulk with a small HP boost compared to the res cost.
If anything, make acid rocket (in it's current form) a hive 1 ability then blink then meta. Maybe boost meta a bit to compenaste for the third hive requirement.
See, you get MC first instead, so fades get celerity for approaching marines faster. And they can metabolize while dodging around. And fade base speed could be increased, and blink nerfed.
Comments
Of course, unless you feel that the fade is <i>impossible</i> to kill providing equal skill levels... which i would disagree on. Good marine players will hold shotties in the background, hidden from the fade as he enters the room (baiting with 1-2 LA/LMG rines). Good marine players will move to block the fade's exit as soon as he enters the room. Good Comms will have a GL spamming the exit. Good Comms will have "Onos Traps" (where you throw a pack of mines in nearly the same spot) setup to take out the fade as he enters (to weaken and then take him out with a quick burst of weapons fire) or as he exits (when he is weak from the weapons fire).
You make it sound as though jesus himself was playing Fade and you are unable to kill him... if that happens, well you got beat then... thats a massive amount of skill you dont have.
Theorectically in a 10v10 game, 4 aliens can save up their res and if they are half decent (with the other 6 not res-whoring), they'll get enough res from kills to go fade within the 3-5 minute mark.
Having 4 fades around marine start within 5 minutes is just a little much IMO. They're the second highest life form on the Kharaa and the aliens should not be able to evolve to them that early into the game.
The 7-8 minute two hive onos is a little too early too.
Generally even a half decent squad of 4 marines with lmgs and lvl1 armor is a serious threat to a non-focus fade if commander knows how to support it properly. Good squad of three players with shotguns means almost certain death to a lonely fade trying a direct assault - you won't get a chance to land more then 2 swipes or so. Zak's post is borderline fantasy, I'm guessing that was both a 2.01 game and marines were total noobs. I did personally get a few 40+/~2-3 frag/death ratio games myself as a fade, but in those games you could tell it in two minutes after the game start that teams got skill-stacked in favor of aliens.
Simply put, a single HA/HMG represents a huge investment (far more than a single Fade) yet a single Fade is far more effective. Both are fairly multipurpose, yet we're seeing no running battles between aliens & marines anymore because every battle is already decided by the time they start.
Either the marines are blatantly going to win (most aliens are skulk, maybe a Fade and a single Onos which get chewed) or the marines are toasted because there's multiple Onos and 3 of the team get devoured in the first 3 seconds.
There's no middle ground to allow for the sort of 'battle' scale fights we saw in the 1.x era.
Combat specific however, I'd say Fades are easily overpowered overall. The learning curve is a jump. New fades are fodder, experienced Fades are near unkillable. Once again, no middle ground. However, this is an opinion I hold for CO only, not NS.
You know how hard it is to hit a circling/jumping shotty marine with your crappy claw hit box attack?
You get 1 hit after doing an uber feat just to -hit- them and most likely die, or be smart and blink away.
Blinking away renders you useless and the marines dominate for they go in a group..........
However in a pubbie:
Marine1: AHHHH FAD----dies
***2 marines get shotties and run off from the rest of the team***
*Gussish chuckles
Marine1: ??!?!?
Marine2: SHHHH N00B
*Gussish blinks in, swipes killing a marine afer 3 hits.
Marine2: 0MG
*Gussish blinks away
*Repeats
But anything is possible in a public server, I have had to blink away 5 times out of 7 to just kill 1 single HA because he jumped backwards and sideways while my poor fade was being shot and barely could move due to 'shock' (weapons slow you down when your shot as onos/fade), so I blinked and healed.........repeatidly and with focus swipe killed him on my next 'drive by' as I put it.
If I have an HMG I can waste a fade in under 2 seconds.
I think HA are very useful, and a fade will never kill a pair of them who are welding other than suciding on them, or they suck terribly.
If I have an HMG I can waste a fade in under 2 seconds.
I think HA are very useful, and a fade will never kill a pair of them who are welding other than suciding on them, or they suck terribly. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Funny, I don't recall saying anything about a pair Forlorn. And I also didn't say they aren't useful, just not as much as a Fade.
The theory is scalable too. Two HA/HMG die to two Fades who alternate attacks, as sooner or later the HA need to reload.
But thanks as usual for suggesting I was saying something I wasn't.
If I have an HMG I can waste a fade in under 2 seconds.
I think HA are very useful, and a fade will never kill a pair of them who are welding other than suciding on them, or they suck terribly. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Funny, I don't recall saying anything about a pair Forlorn. And I also didn't say they aren't useful, just not as much as a Fade.
The theory is scalable too. Two HA/HMG die to two Fades who alternate attacks, as sooner or later the HA need to reload.
But thanks as usual for suggesting I was saying something I wasn't. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
If the fade blinks all the way up to you to swipe, and you have an HMG, then you have enough time to kill him. More than enough, actually.
One skilled HA is more than a match for a fade. The fade needs to use distractions or make sure he fights in very close quarter area's where he can run away quickly.
Also, two HA/HMGs or whatever can definatly beat two fades, focus fire kills a fade even faster.
This only pertains to regular NS, of course.
And the fades can have either one or two hives in these examples.
your joking...
2 HA take on 2 fades?!
perhaps if the marines are fully upgraded and the aliens have one hive, but otherwise thats just not that case dude.
if the fades have meta, or are fighting near a hive, or near DCs, or a gorg, they will be able to keep an almost constant attack going between them.
even if the marines take turns reloading and covering theyll just not have the time to weld.
your joking...
2 HA take on 2 fades?!
perhaps if the marines are fully upgraded and the aliens have one hive, but otherwise thats just not that case dude.
if the fades have meta, or are fighting near a hive, or near DCs, or a gorg, they will be able to keep an almost constant attack going between them.
even if the marines take turns reloading and covering theyll just not have the time to weld. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Lets say you have lv. 2 shotties. This is how long it takes to kill a fade:
Shotgun's <a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=63997&view=findpost&p=946188' target='_blank'>ROF:</a> .67 secs per shot.
Now, since your argument is that fades are coming in so damn fast from healing, then lets assume two things:
1.) They aren't at a hive, 2 HA would lose at their hive, I agree on this for sure, hive is very powerful
2.) They have regen, because if they had carapace then they would have a larger downtime with just meta, and so the HA's have time to weld and reload.
Amount of lv. 2 shots to kill a hive 2 fade from <a href='http://www.nonoobs.com/damage.php' target='_blank'>this damage sim:</a>
34 attacks, or 4 blasts, but it's actually just 3 blasts and 4 pellets. But whatever, 4 shots to kill a fade.
So basically, it's two shots from each HA. Or, 1.34 seconds.
There are exactly 3 times to get a direct shot on a fade who is attacking you:
- On his way in, next to you, and on his way out.
- One skilled SG can nail three SG's if he's good, I might add.
So basically, a fade gets hit on the way in, and gets hit next to the marine's. Dead.
Or, the fade gets hit next to the marine's, and gets hit again on the way out. Dead.
Or, the fade gets hit on the way in, and on the way out. Dead.
Keep in mind this is syncronized shooting, but this easier than you may think.
Lets say the marine's are not equal in skill. One marine sucks pretty bad and the other is a good shot.
The good marine hits the fade 3 times, on the way in, next to them, and on the way out. Meanwhile, the sucky player just has to deal 62 damage (that's all a fade has after 3 shots) and the fade is toast.
HMG's at lv. 2 versus hive 2 fades:
Again, same assumptions:
1.) Not at hive
2.) Have regen
HMG's ROF = .067
28 attacks to kill fade
or, 14 per person
14 shots come out in .938 seconds (even faster than the Shotties (HMG's rock))
Also, keep in mind the HMG's range is just about unlimited against fades in all practical purposes, as the fade's enourmous hitbox (even when crouched) can be covered with an HMG. So basically, as long as the fade is in your view, he can be hit by the HMG.
Also, it's much easier to combine firepower from HMG marines than SG marines.
Again, the conclusion here is not only are the fades are at a serious disadvantage against HMG's, but much more so than the SG's.
The fade, believe it or not, never has the advantage in these situations. I understand that the numbers cannot hope to compensate for every situation, but the stats clearly indicate the fade is at a major disadvantage against SG's, moreso to HMG's, nevermind HA SG's/HMG's, which give the marines even more time to kill a fade who decides to linger by.
Q.E.D.
Do not forget that only totally noob fades will blink into your group - skilled ones will blink around and above at angles where your shotgun will have almost no power due to pellet spread. Once your loaded ammo is exausted, fades dive in. I've personally lead a 2-fade assault on a 3-5 ha 3/3 train several times against good players, and in the mess that is blinking/slashing around, shotguns simply cannot be wielded effectively. Hmg is a weapon to fear far more then a shotgun in small HA groups. Even if you forget the shotgun bug, majority of shooting will happen from either far enough to be effective (most pellets miss) or so close that the attacked marine absorbs most of them (assuming you come fomr a correct angle, which is a skill on its own). And don't forget the miniscule 8 bullet clip either.
And you simply cannot engage an incoming/exting fade with shotgun - range is insuffcient, and you won't be switching to the pistol in the heat of the battle.
HMGs in good hands tend to rape fades rather badly though. Albeit I seriously wonder how you would kill a fade with hmg in 2 seconds alone (well, if he is standing still and you're close-by, maybe...)
Generally I suppose it's possible for a small ha/sg squad to survive a couple of fades in a place with a lot of large space all around. But it's the fade that gets to choose the term of engagement, not the HA squad, and no fade that's worth the resourses he spent on himself will ever engage a HA squad in open areas.
Do not forget that only totally noob fades will blink into your group - skilled ones will blink around and above at angles where your shotgun will have almost no power due to pellet spread. Once your loaded ammo is exausted, fades dive in. I've personally lead a 2-fade assault on a 3-5 ha 3/3 train several times against good players, and in the mess that is blinking/slashing around, shotguns simply cannot be wielded effectively. Hmg is a weapon to fear far more then a shotgun in small HA groups. Even if you forget the shotgun bug, majority of shooting will happen from either far enough to be effective (most pellets miss) or so close that the attacked marine absorbs most of them (assuming you come fomr a correct angle, which is a skill on its own). And don't forget the miniscule 8 bullet clip either.
And you simply cannot engage an incoming/exting fade with shotgun - range is insuffcient, and you won't be switching to the pistol in the heat of the battle.
HMGs in good hands tend to rape fades rather badly though. Albeit I seriously wonder how you would kill a fade with hmg in 2 seconds alone (well, if he is standing still and you're close-by, maybe...)
Generally I suppose it's possible for a small ha/sg squad to survive a couple of fades in a place with a lot of large space all around. But it's the fade that gets to choose the term of engagement, not the HA squad, and no fade that's worth the resourses he spent on himself will ever engage a HA squad in open areas. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
If the fades are just blinking around beyond your effective range, the solution is simple:
<i>Don't shoot them!</i>
Focus on the skulks, and also I don't know what you consider to be your effective range with a SG, but trust me against the enourmous fade hitboxes it is very big. You can score about 8 pellets out of your 10 on a fade who is at the top of maintanence hive in ns_eclipse if you are on the mid level (like the bridges per se).
It's actually not that hard to hit a fade, and once you get the hang of it they die very quickly.
And I didn't say "outside" the range, I said "on the edge", as shotgun will still hit. That is usually enough of insentive to shoot even for experienced players. And with him being a good fade, he'll have regeneration, mostly negating the incoming damage. Random pellet spread is a funny thing - sometimes you can frag a skulk in one shot from far away, and sometimes almost point blank shots miss completely. It has ablsolutely nothing to do with player's accuracy.
I'd also like to point out that fade's hitbox is only big from front/rear and somewhat big from left and right sides. It's quite small from top/bottom. Which is why many skilled fades grab adrenaline and stay close to the ceiling when blinking into the engagement.
And one more thing that you missed about my post - correct angle of attack. At almost any given time during the fight, there's always 1-2 marines that form a peak of a very steep angled triangle with the rest of the squad
....F
....T
.../ \
../ M \
.M----M
F: fade
T: Target marine
M: rest of the squad (random positions within the triangle)
This means that there's only 1 marine that can shoot at you effectively - your target. Rest will waste their ammo because the majority of pellets will get absorbed by target's hitbox. But spotting and engagning those guys in the middle of the ever-flowing change of the formation in the battle is a skill on its own.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is why a small group of marines (eg. 2) will tear a fade to pieces in one or two seconds (given they are at full health/armor - in most of these situations in combat games fades come out on top because the marines are already injured). Personally I find fades rather amusing as long as I am not stuck in marine spawn with five marines blocking my line of fire.
This only goes for combat fades because classic fades are no threat for decent marines (with upgrades).
And I didn't say "outside" the range, I said "on the edge", as shotgun will still hit. That is usually enough of insentive to shoot even for experienced players. And with him being a good fade, he'll have regeneration, mostly negating the incoming damage. Random pellet spread is a funny thing - sometimes you can frag a skulk in one shot from far away, and sometimes almost point blank shots miss completely. It has ablsolutely nothing to do with player's accuracy.
I'd also like to point out that fade's hitbox is only big from front/rear and somewhat big from left and right sides. It's quite small from top/bottom. Which is why many skilled fades grab adrenaline and stay close to the ceiling when blinking into the engagement.
And one more thing that you missed about my post - correct angle of attack. At almost any given time during the fight, there's always 1-2 marines that form a peak of a very steep angled triangle with the rest of the squad
....F
....T
.../ \
../ M \
.M----M
F: fade
T: Target marine
M: rest of the squad (random positions within the triangle)
This means that there's only 1 marine that can shoot at you effectively - your target. Rest will waste their ammo because the majority of pellets will get absorbed by target's hitbox. But spotting and engagning those guys in the middle of the ever-flowing change of the formation in the battle is a skill on its own. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Actually the pellet spread is not random; go shoot a hive see where the pellet marks are. The actual spread of the shotgun seems to be very consistant.
Also, regen doesn't negate damage done to the fade, as long as you keep injuring him, his armor level will drop, and his HP will stay close to full; and hp is a joke compared to armor. The fade of 3.00 is nothing like the fade of 2.01, where blinking around having shots miss you by the masses while you regened is gone. Staying in the firing zone of shotguns or even LMG's will eventually kill you in 3.00 against good shots.
Also, I know when a fade is blinking against the ceiling, he will be a smaller target, but only if you are standing directly underneath him.
The angles of attack also are something that you have to work out beforehand and put yourself away from other marines.
The Fade itself isn't even remotely an overpowered lifeform - if anything, the current Hive 1 Skulk is annoyingly underpowered (against anything but the 0/0 marine), leaving the Fade as the only real option to not get raped past 3:00 into the game.
The best solution to this would probably be to just remove or lower knockback - especially midair knockback while strafing in the bite direction (right if you're facing the Skulk, left if you're running away).
Edit :
On pellet spread, I doubt the clientside graphic is that reliable an indicator, so yes its down to luck how your shotgun spreads. Even the types of hitgraphics you see (sparks vs blood) don't help, as often times sparking does damage, and hell I've seen kills via spark-hits (This coming from some extensive testing done on an empty co server with 2 Fogeys, drawdamage on and checking back and forth for damage dealt vs visual effect. FYI the fade crouchbug was also entirely reproducable there).
Also, regen doesn't negate damage done to the fade, as long as you keep injuring him, his armor level will drop, and his HP will stay close to full; and hp is a joke compared to armor. The fade of 3.00 is nothing like the fade of 2.01, where blinking around having shots miss you by the masses while you regened is gone. Staying in the firing zone of shotguns or even LMG's will eventually kill you in 3.00 against good shots.
Also, I know when a fade is blinking against the ceiling, he will be a smaller target, but only if you are standing directly underneath him.
The angles of attack also are something that you have to work out beforehand and put yourself away from other marines. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Like a post below indicates, the spread IS random - the client graphics do not represent the actual spread.
No, it's pretty narutal that damage is not fully negated, but with shotguns in play, a skilled fade will not lose much armor, and will still retain almost full HP when actually entering the combat in my scenario. It takes a degree of skill to stay fast enough, and it won't work when there are good lmg shooters in the squad though, just as you mentioned.
Angles of attack are NOT something you can work beforehand - if you have to do that, that means you've already lost the engagement. The formation starts shifting the very moment squad spots the fade, and will continue to change for the duration of the entire engagement. That is why I said that it's a skill on its own to be able to know how to find such target marine after they spot you and start moving, and keep the him between you and the rest of the squad while you slash him.
One more thing - the less people there is in a squad, the easier it is for a fade to keep the target marine between him and the rest of the squad. Sqaud consisting of two people is the easiest. Granted most pub fades don't even grasp the need to approach the enemy from the side or a blind spot, instead going for celerity and blinking straight into the target marine, so expecting finesse like this from them is foolish.
<!--c1--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>CODE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='CODE'><!--ec1-->
X----X
F
<!--c2--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--ec2-->
Here, we have a fade who is charging two marines with shotties.
The fade decides to go from the side and hit one marine and make sure the other marine cannot touch the fade.
Keep in mind the dotted lines represent line of sight to the other marine.
<!--c1--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>CODE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='CODE'><!--ec1-->
X----X F
<!--c2--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--ec2-->
Fade now charges in! Marines, for some reason have not moved at all yet.
<!--c1--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>CODE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='CODE'><!--ec1-->
X_ F
\_
X
<!--c2--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--ec2-->
Here we can see the marine displaces himself so that he is now at a diagnonal to the other marine. Fade is now prime target material. If the marines are fast and accurate enough, fade dies.
However, lets see the fade does not fall for the old 'toro' trick:
<!--c1--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>CODE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='CODE'><!--ec1-->
X_
\_ F
X
Here we can see the fade is more or less on top of the other marine obscuring full damage from the second marine.
But lets say the marine smartens up:
X>>X
\_ F
X
And now the fade is back in veiw from a simple marine hop.
<!--c2--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--ec2-->
It may seem unpractical to see this, but keep in mind it's just as impractical to assume the same level of thinking from the fade. What I just gave you is high level play.
Still, no matter how you look at it, the fade is at the disadvantage. The number one way the fade wins? That's easy; it's if the marine's mess up.
Generally, any death can be calssified as "messing up". Messing up by walking into a trap, not paying attention to the ceiling, missing too many shots, wandering off alone. Everything is about who messes up.
Generally, any death can be calssified as "messing up". Messing up by walking into a trap, not paying attention to the ceiling, missing too many shots, wandering off alone. Everything is about who messes up. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Celerity is my movement upgrade of choice for the fade in 3.00. A faster fade is one who is out of danger that much faster. Metabolize also gives you energy, meaning that needed adren to recover energy back isn't nessesary.
Also, my other clanmates almost exclusively use celerity for fades.
I play in high level play all the time. I see some top fades prefer adren, and others prefer celerity. Still, I think celerity is the best movement upgrade for fades, but it's up for debate.
An adren fade who just blinks in circles around you; I can still hit him dead on with well timed shots meaning it's not that big of a threat. Meanwhile, a celerity fade who blinks in so fast and out so fast that I cannot shoot more than 2 shots before he leaves, poses a much bigger threat to me.
The biggest problem with the fade is his mobility gained from blink. The 1.X fades were so powerful because the combination of a semi-powerful ranged attack and the ability to out run non jetpack equiped marines meant it would never die. Now that the fade is melee based this isn't as big a problem as it was before.
<i>I believe that a radical change to the fade would make NS much more enjoyable, but the risk of upsetting the whole ballance of the game is so great that the change is most likely not worth it.</i>
Right now the problem is not the power of the fade, as since high end marines with jetpacks, heavy armor, or hmgs can often take it down, but the speed at which the fade is gotten. If the fade is to be weakened, it needs to only be in the early game stages. The best way to do this, is to tie the fade more heavily to hives. While all other aliens get much better at the second hive (leap, bilebomb, umbra, stomp) the fade isn't much stronger.
One suggestion I have thought of (and it seems others have as well) is to switch the placement of blink and metabolize. Alone this makes the fade much weaker until the second hive is finnished. However, in the big picture this will also reduce the need for defense chambers as the first chamber. The fade is the sole reason defense chambers are picked as the first chamber and if fades are able to heal by themselves than I believe sensory chambers and movement chambers may become viable as first hive chambers. Yet, if this changes is combined with a reduction in the cost hive construction (be it in the price of the hive, or the gorge) or build time of the hive I think that it would reduce the weakness of the fade and encourage aliens to get another hive, instead of simply another fade.
I should also note that if the switch of blink and metabolize was made, it would also increase the amount of time before a fade showed up in combat.
One suggestion I have thought of (and it seems others have as well) is to switch the placement of blink and metabolize. Alone this makes the fade much weaker until the second hive is finnished. However, in the big picture this will also reduce the need for defense chambers as the first chamber. The fade is the sole reason defense chambers are picked as the first chamber and if fades are able to heal by themselves than I believe sensory chambers and movement chambers may become viable as first hive chambers. Yet, if this changes is combined with a reduction in the cost hive construction (be it in the price of the hive, or the gorge) or build time of the hive I think that it would reduce the weakness of the fade and encourage aliens to get another hive, instead of simply another fade.
I should also note that if the switch of blink and metabolize was made, it would also increase the amount of time before a fade showed up in combat. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
That actually makes a LOT of sense. In 1.04 the blink of the fade was tied to the second hive. So if you lost it, you weren't totally screwed (because AR was 2nd slot weapon) but your mobility was greatly crippled. Now if Blink and Metabolize was switched, it would basically mean a whole new game of tactics (different chambers instead of the normal D-M-S).
If anything, make acid rocket (in it's current form) a hive 1 ability then blink then meta. Maybe boost meta a bit to compenaste for the third hive requirement.