Necrosis - I can see where you're coming from, but I think you're wrong.
I think if Nada walks into a pub, destroys everyone he sees, and then: 1. ignores hostility, and 2. responds positively to queries That will be a much more effective recruit-to-clanning strategy than playing below par.
When I'm pubbing (almost daily), there is nothing I hate more than being patronized. If I'm getting spawncamped, watching the campers walk away and let me and my team spawn as a "courtesy" drives me up the wall. If I got beat, I got beat, and I have one of two reactions: 1. Go take a break 2. Wait impatiently to take another crack at it
I first started to seriously pub NS on a passworded pub server that the HAMs played on. There were eventually political difficulties that led to that situation breaking up, but as an utter nub I was playing against and with steamed, shampoo, green, etc on a daily basis. It was <i>great</i>, a million times better than my short stints on Voogru.
That said, I'd like to reiterate my point. In my opinion, good clanners playing below their best will do nothing to recruit to the clan scene. At best, pubs will be indifferent to them. At worst, they'll go "meh, these clanners ain't so hot" and it'll be a <i>dis</i>incentive to clanning. On the other hand, if they play a good game, unsmurfed, and take a little time to be polite and explain to x or y pub that running straight at a marine is a bad idea - well, I think we might see a few more clans.
Personaly I go into a pub, just to see how my skill stacks up against my own standards. I go in and try to do everything ive learned, and see how well it works when 7 skulks are comming at you from every corner. Its fun to just run around and kill stuff, and im sure most clanners agree that after a certain point in NS, you just go in and start mindlessly killing. All the time spent playing in pubs, and analyizing your gameplay eventualy pays off, its not that hard to become a great pub player if you just learn from your mistakes and figure out what you did wrong when u got killed. Any pubber can get better. Clanplay just lets you finetune it because the level of gameplay is just that much higher. I suggest it to anyone who wants to learn to play at a higher level, because they say, no pain no gain.. and if u arn't playing the upper teir of the NS community constantly, your not going to get better than your average pub all-star. I mean, how did those "crazy haxor clanners" get so good? Not because they hack, its because they they learned the maps, best ambush spots, how to line up their shots, how to use a weapon effectivly, and how to solo as well as in a team. That and they spend countless hours perfecting their gameplay, so that they could beat the other Uber players out there... so when they come into a pub, i doubt they are sadistic and want to stop newbies, on the contrary, they just want to have some fun and kill stuff.
I have posted this a few times, but I will post it again.
<a href='http://www.battleforthegalaxy.com' target='_blank'>http://www.battleforthegalaxy.com</a> A tournament for competive players, and casual players.
You pick one side to be on (alien or marine) for the whole tournament. Practices are 3 times a week.
Battles last 12 hrs, a player is not expected to last the entire 12 hrs, because that is just unrealistic. Any player on the team can stay and play as long as they want, so people with commitment issues can play just 1 game if they like, and still get a little taste of what its like to be on a competitive team, where people have roles and do them to the best of their ability.
Not all the CAL players do the fading and lerking. I've had some top CAL guys perm gorge so that other players can get experience fading and lerking. We play to win, but we also play to develop other players skill.
My practices that I run (I am the Alien leader) are geared towards getting people on the same page. If some of my guys have questions about the map, I explain it to them so they can understand it from a more tactical point of view. Give them key points that they may or may not of have known.
Then we do simulations. I have some of the CAL guys go marines and they have to kill a hive. I have the aliens surpress them in an area as long as they can, if the hive dies (or spawn camping happens) marines get beaconed and a new wave goes in. I go spectator and comment on the alien game play.
The team leaders are me, and Vinin. We both have extensive knowledge on competitive gaming, and we both have the leadership qualities to relay this knowledge. My guys not only listen and give it their all every single time, which I am extremely proud of, they also know that what I am trying to get them to do is what in my mind is best for the team, and we won our first battle.
If clanners are to teach other people, they need to be respected, otherwise its wasted time for both parties.
The battle for the galaxy is that outlet for experienced players to give people without competitive knowledge, a way to get a taste of competitive play, with out being committed to a clan, and without getting "fat kidded" in nspug.
People from a variety of skill, knowlege and dedication have signed up for BFG, for those vets who wish to give back to the community, as well as casual players who want to improve their game, this is the place to do it, and the time is NOW.
<!--QuoteBegin-Firewater+Jun 30 2004, 05:16 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Firewater @ Jun 30 2004, 05:16 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Offering advice when not asked is impolite and arrogant. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> No. Being offended by advice offered in a friendly manner is arrogant and elitist. Not the other way around. It is precisely that kind of attitude that we are trying to do away with here. If someone is insulted when someone else offers them advice, it means that they have problems with insecurity.
<!--QuoteBegin-Florp Incarnate+Jun 30 2004, 01:17 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Florp Incarnate @ Jun 30 2004, 01:17 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Firewater+Jun 30 2004, 05:16 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Firewater @ Jun 30 2004, 05:16 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Offering advice when not asked is impolite and arrogant. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> No. Being offended by advice offered in a friendly manner is arrogant and elitist. Not the other way around. It is precisely that kind of attitude that we are trying to do away with here. If someone is insulted when someone else offers them advice, it means that they have problems with insecurity. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I've had people call me an **** for telling them what they needed to do to improve, responses like that lead to my way of thinking.
<!--QuoteBegin-Firewater+Jun 30 2004, 06:20 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Firewater @ Jun 30 2004, 06:20 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-Florp Incarnate+Jun 30 2004, 01:17 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Florp Incarnate @ Jun 30 2004, 01:17 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Firewater+Jun 30 2004, 05:16 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Firewater @ Jun 30 2004, 05:16 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Offering advice when not asked is impolite and arrogant. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> No. Being offended by advice offered in a friendly manner is arrogant and elitist. Not the other way around. It is precisely that kind of attitude that we are trying to do away with here. If someone is insulted when someone else offers them advice, it means that they have problems with insecurity. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I've had people call me an **** for telling them what they needed to do to improve, responses like that lead to my way of thinking.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> In those cases, it's their fault, not yours. Don't stoop to their way of thinking, just because of a few bad eggs.
In other news, drama is very much included here. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo-->
I'm sure this is the sort of thing that gets one lynched around here, but why not a new forum on ns.org geared towards the clan scene and competitive play. As was mentioned somewhere way up this thread, there's no good common place for competitive players to gather and discuss things. The cal or the amped forums are pretty much just line after line of 'pandas sux' 'exi owns tbh' 'SUYF nub' and so forth. No new clans are going to come there and say 'hey, can someone give us suggestions on how to cover a room while trying to build sieges when the aliens have two hive fades?' or what have you.
Right now here, we have the clan recruitment forum, obviously not a good place for this, and the league/tournament forum. It's empty, and looks like the dust on it hasn't been brushed off for a while. The only other place clan advice discussions would be semi-appropriate would be in the new player forum, and I don't see any clan, no matter HOW new, feeling like it would be right for them to post their queries in there.
Maybe the underused league forum could be rolled up into a new competitive discussion forum, and all league announcements could also be put there? Might be a way for clans to get to know each other off the battlefield and foster more of a sense of community.
<!--QuoteBegin-BobTheJanitor+Jun 30 2004, 10:40 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (BobTheJanitor @ Jun 30 2004, 10:40 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I'm sure this is the sort of thing that gets one lynched around here, but why not a new forum on ns.org geared towards the clan scene and competitive play. As was mentioned somewhere way up this thread, there's no good common place for competitive players to gather and discuss things. The cal or the amped forums are pretty much just line after line of 'pandas sux' 'exi owns tbh' 'SUYF nub' and so forth. No new clans are going to come there and say 'hey, can someone give us suggestions on how to cover a room while trying to build sieges when the aliens have two hive fades?' or what have you.
Right now here, we have the clan recruitment forum, obviously not a good place for this, and the league/tournament forum. It's empty, and looks like the dust on it hasn't been brushed off for a while. The only other place clan advice discussions would be semi-appropriate would be in the new player forum, and I don't see any clan, no matter HOW new, feeling like it would be right for them to post their queries in there.
Maybe the underused league forum could be rolled up into a new competitive discussion forum, and all league announcements could also be put there? Might be a way for clans to get to know each other off the battlefield and foster more of a sense of community. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I've always wondered why the ns.org forums never had a place like that.
I remember back in the FA scene, there was a forum called "Clan Forum", and all the drama went right in there. It was hilarious, hack accusations, movies get posted, leagues are annouced, new clans are talked about, all rolled up in one forum.
It was a very popular part of the forum, and any time people had problems they just took them there.
Anyhow,
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> And I'm sure you told them in your ever so colorful, sadistic way of yours... lemmie guess the dialoge here: FW: "jesus, you suck! give up now! your shots are all off, you cant bite for crap, and you are a nub! gtfo!" player: "gee... uhh thanks... "<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No, you are completely wrong. Telling someone even in a polite manner passes you off as someone who thinks they are better than you, therefore elitist.
I've been banned, llama'ed, and muted on servers for trying to help out the comm, telling him not to use a turret factory at the start of a game, not to elec every node, etc. etc.
Of course, this doesn't stop me from talking to newb comms and/or bad players, because I can't stand wasting my time like that where I kill a ton of stuff and then lose because the comm forgets to give out shotguns and get armor lv. 1.
So I do the next logical step: I stop pubbing classic NS games, because quite simply, they suck. It is no fun to lose because your arrogant teammates won't listen to you, even though you know you are right.
This is a typical conversation on pub games:
"Hey comm, we shouldn't lock down this hive, they started with the middle one and besides we need to get more upgrades, we should also pressure their nodes more."
Comm: "Hey, do you see who's in the chair right now? Does it look like you? Now be quiet and build."
"Guys, don't even build this, you still get 80% back of the structure if it's recycled while unbuilt. Lets go forward and pressure."
Of course, people just build anyways because they don't even know what the hell 'pressure the nodes' means, but I run off anyhow and become a 1 man army with maybe one other guy who follows you.
I kill an alien node, and then request for it to be capped.
Comm: "Did I tell you to go there? I'm not capping that node because you aren't following orders."
"What orders?"
Comm: "Go lock down the hive you were just at."
"Look man, it's more important to kill an alien node, cap it, and get upgrades for the marines than it is to build some worthless turrets whose first alien they will see is a fade."
Comm: "Oh really, look at that, those turrets just killed 3 skulks and prevented the hive location from falling to aliens."
"But you have 5 marines in that hive anyways!"
Comm: "Oh, wait, <insert regular of the pub here> needs a node built for them. Here ya go!"
Comm drops node for another player, and the res count is around 15 anyways.
"Can you drop me a node now?"
Comm: "No. I'm busy somewhere else."
- Forlorn has left the game
You'd think that these situations are rare, but I have far worse stories than this one. So I stick to combat, which is 1000000x more enjoyable over pubbing regular NS.
And in combat, if you do good, people might say you hack, cheat, script, but then there is someone else who chimes in, "That's Forlorn you noob, he's just good", and people ask you questions like, "Forlorn what upgrades do you get as fade?", "How do you jump like that?" "Why do you never get cloaking Forlorn?"
It's just much more fun. There is no need to tell others in a combat game what they are doing wrong, since there is almost no strategy in combat, it is all skill based, and since 1 player can easily win a game in combat, there is no need to help anyone, all you have to do is solo the hive or spawn camp marines.
<!--QuoteBegin-BobTheJanitor+Jun 30 2004, 03:40 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (BobTheJanitor @ Jun 30 2004, 03:40 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I'm sure this is the sort of thing that gets one lynched around here, but why not a new forum on ns.org geared towards the clan scene and competitive play. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> That's a very good idea. I'll put it up for discussion in our private forum.
I pity the brave fool who steps in to moderate a forum like that. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo-->
If a competitive forum is to be put in to place, guys like FW and Forlorn should be moderators for that forum.
Here's what I, a very competitive player in a clan, am getting from self proclaimed "pubbers" in this thread: "We hate you. Die and good riddance, no one likes clanner a-holes, all you do is come on our pubs and ruin our fun and then yell 'OMG NOOBS QUIT NS NOW!' Stay off pub servers and I hope the clan scene dies." Let's analyse this attitude. You want the clan scene to die, so there will be a general end to leagues and scrimming. You also want clan players to not play on pub servers ever. What did you just tell every single clan player? Let's make the connection here....Oh yeah, you just said "YOU ALL SUCK QUIT NS NOW." And then continued to bash on clanners, because apparently they are constantly telling that to all the pubbers.
Yes, almost all of the people in clans are disenchanted with pubs. Because, like FW said, on pubs we are repeatedly told "GTFO F*G YOU'RE RUINING THE GAME" just because of the fact that we're there, regardless of what we're doing. I have to smurf just to be able to be left alone, and then even when I'm smurfing, I still get yelled at and abused because in general I play at a higher skill level than most players. I've also got an extra strike against me on pubs because I have a vet icon, though we certainly don't need to start up the old debate about vets.
90% of the pub games a clanner plays in will result in one of the following outcomes: Aliens: -Changes to higher lifeform. If he is good, he's cursed out for ruining the game. If he's bad, cursed out for sucking. Cursed out for res-whoring in both instances. -Gorges and builds the teams necessary structures, which usually end up being all chambers, all hives, and most of the nodes. Team loses because the rest of the team can't stop the marines. Gets angered by lack of a grasp of basic strategy by the rest of the team. -Skulks to save for hive or something. Unable to hold off six marines by himself, the clanner gets run over and the game is eventually lost; similar to gorge outcome. Marines: -Rambos and is refused equipment/nodes/strategic structures by the comm. -Comms and is unfailingly ejected, usually immediately or when he refuses to turret up the base. -Follows orders and is either given bad orders, refused structures/equipment because he's in a clan, or rushed by 3 skulks and a fade and slaughtered while the rest of the team is building a structure/getting ammo/refusing to weld anyone's HA. Win or lose, pub games are almost never any fun, because of the constant abuse and general ignorange exhibited by the vast majority of pub players.
One thing that none of the pubbers seem to realize is that clan players generally only come in to pubs for two reasons: because it isn't possible to play on a competitive level at the moment since no one is on, or to pratice work on a specific skill. Rarely do we want to play on pubs. If we were all griefers just out to ruin your fun with our terrible mean ol' skill, why on earth would we be trying to encourage more players to join the competitive scene? If our aim was to just grief it up, we'd all be playing on pubs constantly just to **** you off. And guess what? If the competitive scene dies, pubs will be seeing a <b>LOT</b> more of competitive players. So if you're really dedicated to keeping those horrid unbearable skilled players off your server, help the clan scene out, otherwise we'll all have nothing else to do but go play on pubs all day.
Actually, for the sake of clarity, the "Quit NS now" comment came in a scrim, one of the first ones that OldF had when they were trying to poke their way into the competitive scene. It was quick ownage by two rushes, which is about the quickest and most painless way for green clanners to learn that it's a hard world out there and there are lots of people better than you. It also taught us all that some clanners are jerks and like to rub in the fact that they've outskilled you.
That was my main problem. I don't mind getting totally owned inside and out in a scrim or match. I have even learned to take the abuse if someone wants to then mock me for it. But new clans, just coming in, going for their first foray into the wild world of competitive level NS, being beaten to ribbons and then laughed at and mocked for it... well, it's hardly the way to get people to stay around and keep playing at a competitive level, is it? A few of our members were ready to quit right then.
This isn't war. It's not an actual life or death battle. We're just people, playing a game. Emotions may run high, but there's no reason that after the round you can't look your opponent (metaphorically) in the eye and shake hands and congratulate him on a game well played. That will keep people coming back to it.
On clanners playing on pubs, well that can be tough. Find a pub that doesn't look kindly on spending starting res on turrets (they do exist), stick to combat as much as possible, like forlorn mentioned. Maybe download a bot and stack ten of them against you to beef up your aim skill without having to listen to hackusations, whatever floats your boat.
But there's no reason that clanners and pubbers can't peacefully coexist in the same world. The attitude shift has to come from the clanners, though. By definition, pubbers are basically just random occasional players. There's no way to make pubbers change their attitudes, because they don't exist as a singualar group that can be changed. Clanners do. Most of them have been around for a while, know one another, and a majority could decide to start acting a different way, if they so chose. I'm not saying that's EASY, simply that it's more possible than the alternative.
Go idle in #caleague-ns, #nspug, #findnsscrim, or any of the other competitive geared IRC channels for a few hours and then get back to me on that. If you still stand by your statement, then I'll bother coming up with arguments.
Our Clan will be joining CAL soon, 14 members and rising! <!--emo&::marine::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/marine.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='marine.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::tsa::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tsa.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tsa.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin-Hobojoe+Jun 30 2004, 06:29 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Hobojoe @ Jun 30 2004, 06:29 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Nemesis Zero+Jun 30 2004, 12:52 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Nemesis Zero @ Jun 30 2004, 12:52 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->That's a very good idea. I'll put it up for discussion in our private forum. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> will we have the same moderation team there? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I don't see why not.
By the way, so far, Bobs idea got toroughly favorable feedback, so I'll soon start drafting the rules for such a forum. Seeing that my experience in competitive environments is limited, I'd appreciate argumentatively founded suggestions. Simply send me a PM with your input.
actually, i don't mind if a uber duper uber player goes all out, as long as there is another one on the other side to balance it out. it's mainly when all the uber players stack one side (yes, a longtime problem with ANY game) taht it makes it very very painful.
<!--QuoteBegin-Nemesis Zero+Jun 30 2004, 11:52 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Nemesis Zero @ Jun 30 2004, 11:52 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-BobTheJanitor+Jun 30 2004, 03:40 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (BobTheJanitor @ Jun 30 2004, 03:40 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I'm sure this is the sort of thing that gets one lynched around here, but why not a new forum on ns.org geared towards the clan scene and competitive play. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> That's a very good idea. I'll put it up for discussion in our private forum.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Which, the forum, or lynching Bob? <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Yeah, the "how <b>dare</b> you tell me I'm making a mistake!" impulse runs pretty strong in some people. But I daresay those people aren't going to be interested in a clan anyways.
<!--QuoteBegin-Kwil+Jun 30 2004, 05:40 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Kwil @ Jun 30 2004, 05:40 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Nemesis Zero+Jun 30 2004, 11:52 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Nemesis Zero @ Jun 30 2004, 11:52 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-BobTheJanitor+Jun 30 2004, 03:40 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (BobTheJanitor @ Jun 30 2004, 03:40 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I'm sure this is the sort of thing that gets one lynched around here, but why not a new forum on ns.org geared towards the clan scene and competitive play. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> That's a very good idea. I'll put it up for discussion in our private forum.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Which, the forum, or lynching Bob? <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Both, I hope!
While it is a nice idea, creating a seperate clan forums isn't going to save competitive NS, I think we should get back to the subject on hand without the bitterness from BOTH sides of the arguement.
Back in November of 2002, I became a regular on the Stormtroopers of Death public server. It was a fast, sixteen slot server. The game was brand-new, and NS became the only game I played for a long time. Of course the members of STD frequented the server and since I showed some skill at the game, I was asked to join the clan and see how these scrims that I read about in forums worked out.
STD at first was just a clan running an ns server, like many of the pub clans today. It developed a roster of members to compete in scrims and eventually league play. We had intra-clan practices and decided we were ready for introduction into the competitive scene.
On the first day we scrimmed other clans, we won all three that we played. We were elated that we could beat other teams on the first day we played on a level above public play. We were confident in our skills and decided to scrim as much as possible to hone our strategies and techniques. However, for the next two weeks, we lost EVERY SINGLE GAME. Not even tied, but lost. Of course we were feeling dejected and wondered whether we should continue to play when it seemed every team was demolishing us. A few members left after getting frustrated at the lack of winning, but a group of about eight (out of like 14) stuck it out.
The top team back then was sYn, and whenever they advertised to scrim, we had debates on TeamSpeak whether we should play them or not. More times than not, we played them and got stomped every time. But we accepted that there were teams MUCH more skilled than us and could take beatings from the top teams. We learned from our experiences, both the many losses and the morale boosting wins. So much, in fact, that STD was one of the original Veteran clans for the 1.1/2.0 beta testing.
By the summer of 2003, after the release of 2.0 and its patches, the clan fell apart due to inactive leadership and its members drifted to other clans. But it's still amazing to me how far a bunch of regulars on one server went and how fun that experience was.
Basically, I'm saying that forming a new clan to play competively is going to be a hard and challenging process. If you love this game though, it's well worth it. You'll never fully experience the capabilities this mod can go if you just pub, and if you do make the jump to competitive play, don't be discouraged to the point of quitting match play because you got owned left and right. Those other teams put time into this game, and that is why they are able to perform in match conditions. By continuing to play, you'll undoubtedly get better and more adept at this higher level of play. There will be skilled players who may belittle you and your team, but there will also be players on his team that will offer you advice if you simply ask them over IRC. If you seem to be hooked on this game, relish the challenge and try to break into the clan scene. You won’t regret it.
- Volume 2 will be released August 2nd, preorder now!
Comments
I think if Nada walks into a pub, destroys everyone he sees, and then:
1. ignores hostility, and
2. responds positively to queries
That will be a much more effective recruit-to-clanning strategy than playing below par.
When I'm pubbing (almost daily), there is nothing I hate more than being patronized. If I'm getting spawncamped, watching the campers walk away and let me and my team spawn as a "courtesy" drives me up the wall. If I got beat, I got beat, and I have one of two reactions:
1. Go take a break
2. Wait impatiently to take another crack at it
I first started to seriously pub NS on a passworded pub server that the HAMs played on. There were eventually political difficulties that led to that situation breaking up, but as an utter nub I was playing against and with steamed, shampoo, green, etc on a daily basis. It was <i>great</i>, a million times better than my short stints on Voogru.
That said, I'd like to reiterate my point. In my opinion, good clanners playing below their best will do nothing to recruit to the clan scene. At best, pubs will be indifferent to them. At worst, they'll go "meh, these clanners ain't so hot" and it'll be a <i>dis</i>incentive to clanning. On the other hand, if they play a good game, unsmurfed, and take a little time to be polite and explain to x or y pub that running straight at a marine is a bad idea - well, I think we might see a few more clans.
<a href='http://www.battleforthegalaxy.com' target='_blank'>http://www.battleforthegalaxy.com</a> A tournament for competive players, and casual players.
You pick one side to be on (alien or marine) for the whole tournament. Practices are 3 times a week.
Battles last 12 hrs, a player is not expected to last the entire 12 hrs, because that is just unrealistic. Any player on the team can stay and play as long as they want, so people with commitment issues can play just 1 game if they like, and still get a little taste of what its like to be on a competitive team, where people have roles and do them to the best of their ability.
Not all the CAL players do the fading and lerking. I've had some top CAL guys perm gorge so that other players can get experience fading and lerking. We play to win, but we also play to develop other players skill.
My practices that I run (I am the Alien leader) are geared towards getting people on the same page. If some of my guys have questions about the map, I explain it to them so they can understand it from a more tactical point of view. Give them key points that they may or may not of have known.
Then we do simulations. I have some of the CAL guys go marines and they have to kill a hive. I have the aliens surpress them in an area as long as they can, if the hive dies (or spawn camping happens) marines get beaconed and a new wave goes in. I go spectator and comment on the alien game play.
The team leaders are me, and Vinin. We both have extensive knowledge on competitive gaming, and we both have the leadership qualities to relay this knowledge. My guys not only listen and give it their all every single time, which I am extremely proud of, they also know that what I am trying to get them to do is what in my mind is best for the team, and we won our first battle.
If clanners are to teach other people, they need to be respected, otherwise its wasted time for both parties.
The battle for the galaxy is that outlet for experienced players to give people without competitive knowledge, a way to get a taste of competitive play, with out being committed to a clan, and without getting "fat kidded" in nspug.
People from a variety of skill, knowlege and dedication have signed up for BFG, for those vets who wish to give back to the community, as well as casual players who want to improve their game, this is the place to do it, and the time is NOW.
<a href='http://www.battleforthegalaxy.com' target='_blank'>http://www.battleforthegalaxy.com</a>
No. Being offended by advice offered in a friendly manner is arrogant and elitist. Not the other way around. It is precisely that kind of attitude that we are trying to do away with here. If someone is insulted when someone else offers them advice, it means that they have problems with insecurity.
No. Being offended by advice offered in a friendly manner is arrogant and elitist. Not the other way around. It is precisely that kind of attitude that we are trying to do away with here. If someone is insulted when someone else offers them advice, it means that they have problems with insecurity. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I've had people call me an **** for telling them what they needed to do to improve, responses like that lead to my way of thinking.
No. Being offended by advice offered in a friendly manner is arrogant and elitist. Not the other way around. It is precisely that kind of attitude that we are trying to do away with here. If someone is insulted when someone else offers them advice, it means that they have problems with insecurity. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I've had people call me an **** for telling them what they needed to do to improve, responses like that lead to my way of thinking.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
In those cases, it's their fault, not yours. Don't stoop to their way of thinking, just because of a few bad eggs.
Drama included, I never put this much time into any game before.
In other news, drama is very much included here. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Right now here, we have the clan recruitment forum, obviously not a good place for this, and the league/tournament forum. It's empty, and looks like the dust on it hasn't been brushed off for a while. The only other place clan advice discussions would be semi-appropriate would be in the new player forum, and I don't see any clan, no matter HOW new, feeling like it would be right for them to post their queries in there.
Maybe the underused league forum could be rolled up into a new competitive discussion forum, and all league announcements could also be put there? Might be a way for clans to get to know each other off the battlefield and foster more of a sense of community.
Right now here, we have the clan recruitment forum, obviously not a good place for this, and the league/tournament forum. It's empty, and looks like the dust on it hasn't been brushed off for a while. The only other place clan advice discussions would be semi-appropriate would be in the new player forum, and I don't see any clan, no matter HOW new, feeling like it would be right for them to post their queries in there.
Maybe the underused league forum could be rolled up into a new competitive discussion forum, and all league announcements could also be put there? Might be a way for clans to get to know each other off the battlefield and foster more of a sense of community. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I've always wondered why the ns.org forums never had a place like that.
I remember back in the FA scene, there was a forum called "Clan Forum", and all the drama went right in there. It was hilarious, hack accusations, movies get posted, leagues are annouced, new clans are talked about, all rolled up in one forum.
It was a very popular part of the forum, and any time people had problems they just took them there.
Anyhow,
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> And I'm sure you told them in your ever so colorful, sadistic way of yours... lemmie guess the dialoge here:
FW: "jesus, you suck! give up now! your shots are all off, you cant bite for crap, and you are a nub! gtfo!"
player: "gee... uhh thanks... "<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No, you are completely wrong. Telling someone even in a polite manner passes you off as someone who thinks they are better than you, therefore elitist.
I've been banned, llama'ed, and muted on servers for trying to help out the comm, telling him not to use a turret factory at the start of a game, not to elec every node, etc. etc.
Of course, this doesn't stop me from talking to newb comms and/or bad players, because I can't stand wasting my time like that where I kill a ton of stuff and then lose because the comm forgets to give out shotguns and get armor lv. 1.
So I do the next logical step: I stop pubbing classic NS games, because quite simply, they suck. It is no fun to lose because your arrogant teammates won't listen to you, even though you know you are right.
This is a typical conversation on pub games:
"Hey comm, we shouldn't lock down this hive, they started with the middle one and besides we need to get more upgrades, we should also pressure their nodes more."
Comm: "Hey, do you see who's in the chair right now? Does it look like you? Now be quiet and build."
"Guys, don't even build this, you still get 80% back of the structure if it's recycled while unbuilt. Lets go forward and pressure."
Of course, people just build anyways because they don't even know what the hell 'pressure the nodes' means, but I run off anyhow and become a 1 man army with maybe one other guy who follows you.
I kill an alien node, and then request for it to be capped.
Comm: "Did I tell you to go there? I'm not capping that node because you aren't following orders."
"What orders?"
Comm: "Go lock down the hive you were just at."
"Look man, it's more important to kill an alien node, cap it, and get upgrades for the marines than it is to build some worthless turrets whose first alien they will see is a fade."
Comm: "Oh really, look at that, those turrets just killed 3 skulks and prevented the hive location from falling to aliens."
"But you have 5 marines in that hive anyways!"
Comm: "Oh, wait, <insert regular of the pub here> needs a node built for them. Here ya go!"
Comm drops node for another player, and the res count is around 15 anyways.
"Can you drop me a node now?"
Comm: "No. I'm busy somewhere else."
- Forlorn has left the game
You'd think that these situations are rare, but I have far worse stories than this one. So I stick to combat, which is 1000000x more enjoyable over pubbing regular NS.
And in combat, if you do good, people might say you hack, cheat, script, but then there is someone else who chimes in, "That's Forlorn you noob, he's just good", and people ask you questions like, "Forlorn what upgrades do you get as fade?", "How do you jump like that?" "Why do you never get cloaking Forlorn?"
It's just much more fun. There is no need to tell others in a combat game what they are doing wrong, since there is almost no strategy in combat, it is all skill based, and since 1 player can easily win a game in combat, there is no need to help anyone, all you have to do is solo the hive or spawn camp marines.
That's a very good idea. I'll put it up for discussion in our private forum.
Here's what I, a very competitive player in a clan, am getting from self proclaimed "pubbers" in this thread:
"We hate you. Die and good riddance, no one likes clanner a-holes, all you do is come on our pubs and ruin our fun and then yell 'OMG NOOBS QUIT NS NOW!' Stay off pub servers and I hope the clan scene dies."
Let's analyse this attitude. You want the clan scene to die, so there will be a general end to leagues and scrimming. You also want clan players to not play on pub servers ever.
What did you just tell every single clan player? Let's make the connection here....Oh yeah, you just said "YOU ALL SUCK QUIT NS NOW." And then continued to bash on clanners, because apparently they are constantly telling that to all the pubbers.
Yes, almost all of the people in clans are disenchanted with pubs. Because, like FW said, on pubs we are repeatedly told "GTFO F*G YOU'RE RUINING THE GAME" just because of the fact that we're there, regardless of what we're doing. I have to smurf just to be able to be left alone, and then even when I'm smurfing, I still get yelled at and abused because in general I play at a higher skill level than most players. I've also got an extra strike against me on pubs because I have a vet icon, though we certainly don't need to start up the old debate about vets.
90% of the pub games a clanner plays in will result in one of the following outcomes:
Aliens:
-Changes to higher lifeform. If he is good, he's cursed out for ruining the game. If he's bad, cursed out for sucking. Cursed out for res-whoring in both instances.
-Gorges and builds the teams necessary structures, which usually end up being all chambers, all hives, and most of the nodes. Team loses because the rest of the team can't stop the marines. Gets angered by lack of a grasp of basic strategy by the rest of the team.
-Skulks to save for hive or something. Unable to hold off six marines by himself, the clanner gets run over and the game is eventually lost; similar to gorge outcome.
Marines:
-Rambos and is refused equipment/nodes/strategic structures by the comm.
-Comms and is unfailingly ejected, usually immediately or when he refuses to turret up the base.
-Follows orders and is either given bad orders, refused structures/equipment because he's in a clan, or rushed by 3 skulks and a fade and slaughtered while the rest of the team is building a structure/getting ammo/refusing to weld anyone's HA.
Win or lose, pub games are almost never any fun, because of the constant abuse and general ignorange exhibited by the vast majority of pub players.
One thing that none of the pubbers seem to realize is that clan players generally only come in to pubs for two reasons: because it isn't possible to play on a competitive level at the moment since no one is on, or to pratice work on a specific skill. Rarely do we want to play on pubs. If we were all griefers just out to ruin your fun with our terrible mean ol' skill, why on earth would we be trying to encourage more players to join the competitive scene? If our aim was to just grief it up, we'd all be playing on pubs constantly just to **** you off. And guess what? If the competitive scene dies, pubs will be seeing a <b>LOT</b> more of competitive players. So if you're really dedicated to keeping those horrid unbearable skilled players off your server, help the clan scene out, otherwise we'll all have nothing else to do but go play on pubs all day.
That was my main problem. I don't mind getting totally owned inside and out in a scrim or match. I have even learned to take the abuse if someone wants to then mock me for it. But new clans, just coming in, going for their first foray into the wild world of competitive level NS, being beaten to ribbons and then laughed at and mocked for it... well, it's hardly the way to get people to stay around and keep playing at a competitive level, is it? A few of our members were ready to quit right then.
This isn't war. It's not an actual life or death battle. We're just people, playing a game. Emotions may run high, but there's no reason that after the round you can't look your opponent (metaphorically) in the eye and shake hands and congratulate him on a game well played. That will keep people coming back to it.
On clanners playing on pubs, well that can be tough. Find a pub that doesn't look kindly on spending starting res on turrets (they do exist), stick to combat as much as possible, like forlorn mentioned. Maybe download a bot and stack ten of them against you to beef up your aim skill without having to listen to hackusations, whatever floats your boat.
But there's no reason that clanners and pubbers can't peacefully coexist in the same world. The attitude shift has to come from the clanners, though. By definition, pubbers are basically just random occasional players. There's no way to make pubbers change their attitudes, because they don't exist as a singualar group that can be changed. Clanners do. Most of them have been around for a while, know one another, and a majority could decide to start acting a different way, if they so chose. I'm not saying that's EASY, simply that it's more possible than the alternative.
will we have the same moderation team there? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't see why not.
By the way, so far, Bobs idea got toroughly favorable feedback, so I'll soon start drafting the rules for such a forum. Seeing that my experience in competitive environments is limited, I'd appreciate argumentatively founded suggestions. Simply send me a PM with your input.
On.
Topic.</span>
That's a very good idea. I'll put it up for discussion in our private forum.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Which, the forum, or lynching Bob? <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
That's a very good idea. I'll put it up for discussion in our private forum.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Which, the forum, or lynching Bob? <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Both, I hope!
Maybe something posisitive would happen.
Back in November of 2002, I became a regular on the Stormtroopers of Death public server. It was a fast, sixteen slot server. The game was brand-new, and NS became the only game I played for a long time. Of course the members of STD frequented the server and since I showed some skill at the game, I was asked to join the clan and see how these scrims that I read about in forums worked out.
STD at first was just a clan running an ns server, like many of the pub clans today. It developed a roster of members to compete in scrims and eventually league play. We had intra-clan practices and decided we were ready for introduction into the competitive scene.
On the first day we scrimmed other clans, we won all three that we played. We were elated that we could beat other teams on the first day we played on a level above public play. We were confident in our skills and decided to scrim as much as possible to hone our strategies and techniques. However, for the next two weeks, we lost EVERY SINGLE GAME. Not even tied, but lost. Of course we were feeling dejected and wondered whether we should continue to play when it seemed every team was demolishing us. A few members left after getting frustrated at the lack of winning, but a group of about eight (out of like 14) stuck it out.
The top team back then was sYn, and whenever they advertised to scrim, we had debates on TeamSpeak whether we should play them or not. More times than not, we played them and got stomped every time. But we accepted that there were teams MUCH more skilled than us and could take beatings from the top teams. We learned from our experiences, both the many losses and the morale boosting wins. So much, in fact, that STD was one of the original Veteran clans for the 1.1/2.0 beta testing.
By the summer of 2003, after the release of 2.0 and its patches, the clan fell apart due to inactive leadership and its members drifted to other clans. But it's still amazing to me how far a bunch of regulars on one server went and how fun that experience was.
Basically, I'm saying that forming a new clan to play competively is going to be a hard and challenging process. If you love this game though, it's well worth it. You'll never fully experience the capabilities this mod can go if you just pub, and if you do make the jump to competitive play, don't be discouraged to the point of quitting match play because you got owned left and right. Those other teams put time into this game, and that is why they are able to perform in match conditions. By continuing to play, you'll undoubtedly get better and more adept at this higher level of play. There will be skilled players who may belittle you and your team, but there will also be players on his team that will offer you advice if you simply ask them over IRC. If you seem to be hooked on this game, relish the challenge and try to break into the clan scene. You won’t regret it.
- Volume 2 will be released August 2nd, preorder now!
edit: this seemed so much smaller in notepad