I'm going to write my thesis on this subject guys, it affects everyone in the community <!--emo&:angry:--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/mad-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='mad-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin-Amplifier+Nov 10 2004, 06:00 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Amplifier @ Nov 10 2004, 06:00 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I'm not even going to read this whole topic but I WILL tell you guys one thing
Clanners are trying to help, and all I see is flames/hate <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> On the flip side, I see plenty of arrogance from the clanners. Putting up disclaimers that "I'm not trying to come off as arrogant" don't really cut it.
<!--QuoteBegin-john_sheu+Nov 10 2004, 07:06 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (john_sheu @ Nov 10 2004, 07:06 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Amplifier+Nov 10 2004, 06:00 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Amplifier @ Nov 10 2004, 06:00 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I'm not even going to read this whole topic but I WILL tell you guys one thing
Clanners are trying to help, and all I see is flames/hate <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> On the flip side, I see plenty of arrogance from the clanners. Putting up disclaimers that "I'm not trying to come off as arrogant" don't really cut it. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> how about accept it, and ignore any traces of arrogance at least for a while. i'm sure it would be good for you (and everyone else as well).
<!--QuoteBegin-Nadagast+Nov 11 2004, 12:28 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Nadagast @ Nov 11 2004, 12:28 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I don't suck at the game. Thats why. [/QUOTE] Right and I don't go around saying I'm better than everyone else, yet you say I do. Anyway, want to play a game sometime? Maybe you can teach me a thing or two...
Besides, you're basing your entire argument on a logical fallacy. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> See thats funny because it'll never happen. Necrosis doesn't play NS. Go to any of these "communities" which people have named in this thread & you'll find plenty more like him. People like him never play the game but they know absolutely everything there is to know about it (in their own mind) & are generally the most vocal people in IRC & forums while the rest of us are off enjoying a fine game of Natural Selection.
<!--QuoteBegin-TOmekki+Nov 10 2004, 06:10 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (TOmekki @ Nov 10 2004, 06:10 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-john_sheu+Nov 10 2004, 07:06 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (john_sheu @ Nov 10 2004, 07:06 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Amplifier+Nov 10 2004, 06:00 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Amplifier @ Nov 10 2004, 06:00 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I'm not even going to read this whole topic but I WILL tell you guys one thing
Clanners are trying to help, and all I see is flames/hate <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> On the flip side, I see plenty of arrogance from the clanners. Putting up disclaimers that "I'm not trying to come off as arrogant" don't really cut it. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> how about accept it, and ignore any traces of arrogance at least for a while. i'm sure it would be good for you (and everyone else as well). <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> This cannot be ignored, because it's a <i>fundamental part of the discussion</i>. The attitude I see is one of "any reasonable educated person would think this way, if you don't think this way you must be an bass-ackward tard". And they hammer this point over and over again.
<!--QuoteBegin-eBnar+Nov 10 2004, 07:03 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (eBnar @ Nov 10 2004, 07:03 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> haha, this is hot <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> hi ebnar how are you
joevGiving grief... With a smile.Join Date: 2002-07-20Member: 977Members, Retired Developer, NS1 Playtester, Contributor, Constellation, Reinforced - Shadow
<!--QuoteBegin-john_sheu+Nov 11 2004, 01:07 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (john_sheu @ Nov 11 2004, 01:07 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> So <b>joev</b> comes in here with a different opinion, and then you slander the whole community. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Actually I only voiced the opinion that necrosis was a wise man. I didn't say I *agreed* with him <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin-DarkEnligther+Nov 7 2004, 06:23 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (DarkEnligther @ Nov 7 2004, 06:23 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Send half the team to one side of the map, half the team to the other side, make them move for the 2 empty hives whilst capping RTs, lock down the hives , go for double, siege if necessary, tech up and end the game.
Pro: Works most of the time Con: Like you said, leads to boring turret farms and games being dragged out because marines can't kill the mostly lamed up alien hive. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Why would they be unable to kill the hive ? Me thinks you account for some very crappy marines, and therefore some very crappy aliens, and perhaps a poor strategy. If it is just a last lamed hive, just siege that **** out, or grenade it
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Kindly ask him to drop a hive or DCs or something next game. I'm sure he'll oblige... if he can hear you <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html//emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ah.. if only that worked, if I see someone being a res **** every game in a row and he does have a vet icon, I don't even bother asking him. They know perfectly well what they're doing and won't listen.. if they seem normal pubbers, it might work, but a lot of people just want to play and not think.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Think ? Think about, what he's going to do next in the game, or think about how he's making other people feel bad ?
<u>Necrosis</u> I find this man to be a cynical paternal authoritarian.
Popular opinion is always wrong. Lowest common denominator is not of high quality. What a fool thinks is not any more valid whether one person believes or 100,000.
There is such a thing as right and wrong, apart from emotions, apart from whatever it makes you feel.
There is such a thing as truth, and appearance and association do not make.
The fundamental issue is really that, some people are better at the game than others, and this is something that will not change.
If necrosis speaks for a large portion of the community, then god help us <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/sad-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Excellent, we're actaully making progress and the people who flame are getting shot down so we can get somewhere.
BIG NOTE: the key word for the rest of my post is 'some' I have seen people who fit every type of discrption i have put forth, and more who haven't.
Summary of my post in a few points: - pubbers AND clanners are both contributing to the rift between us - both groups have to work to fix this - if the devs helped, it might go along faster.
IMO the rift between pubbers and clanners is because neitehr side will listen to the other. There are pubbers who will ignore everything teh clanners say. But there are also clanners who ignore everything pubbers say.
Some clanners beleive that all pubbers simply don't get what they are saying. And they refuse to beleive that *gasp* a pubber could actaully know about scripting! *end gasp*
Some clanners also say they're trying to 'teach' when they just call people nubs for not knowing anything, in a very arrogant attitude. In fact, there are many instances in this thread where some seem to think that the problem lies solely with pubbers. Mr. Ben and Amplifier both seem to think so.
Pubbers too, have problems. Many of they are repeating the "scripts are bad" mantra and not getting anywhere. Alot don't listen at all to what anyone else has to say.
But the biggest problem by far is with teh community as a whole. Clanners are spreading thier hate for pubs around, and pubs are spreading thier hate for Clans around. Granted, not all do this, some are neutral. But we need to see more clans and pubs actively doign things to stop this rift from becoming bigger. Maybe it will help improve the clan scene, as well as clean up alot of the players who call scripts and hax on everything.
This was said a while ago, but the only real way to reach both of these communities in a large number are the Devs. Not to say that us, as players, have no part in this. We shoudl also try our best to fix this rift.
P.S. Gekko, I was taught bunnyhopping a long while ago, but never bothered to use it.
I don't recall ever saying it was soley down to pubbers, i just said we're trying to do our bit, if they want this to work then they have to do their bit.
fanaticThis post has been edited.Join Date: 2003-07-23Member: 18377Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
<!--QuoteBegin-Mr.Ben+Nov 11 2004, 02:12 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Mr.Ben @ Nov 11 2004, 02:12 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I don't recall ever saying it was soley down to pubbers, i just said we're trying to do our bit, if they want this to work then they have to do their bit.
omg hai fana! <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Stop it. I'm trying to lurk, here. <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/sad-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Good opporunity for me to state that both sides arguing this case have their fair shares of problems with ignorance and misinformation. Yes, both. How can you have a debate, when neither side has a clue what's going on?
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->If you want people to care you'll have to lower that number. Make more BS_0 servers, lead by example, or find yourself extinct. Noone has to listen to your viewpoint, noone has to care about your viewpoint. You are not voting for them, you are not paying their wages, in fact all you are doing is griefing them and acting badly on their hard earned servers. Would you let a persistent griefer occupy a slot on your server? I credit you with enough honesty to admit that you would punish a rulebreaker, just like everyone else would. If you intend to grow your community you need to swallow hard and accept that you're going to have to PROVE you're the best of the community. Not in skill, not in game knowledge, but in the ability to provide a better play experience. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
See this has already been tried (several times).
It never works however because large games of clanners (skilled players) are always biased to the marines and therefore people stopped pubbing.
Clanners realized why large games sucked back in 2.01, and it's been 1 year later and no fix.
So of course the clanners see the problem and what happens?
1. They stop pubbing 2. They try to get the devs to fix it
Does 2 ever happen? Almost a year since THE HAMPTONS died, and is anyone ever listened to?
Dude it's a vicious cycle
Clanners cannot make large pub games for themselves due to the imbalances ---> Ask for devs to fix the game ---> Nothing happens, clanners still want to pub occasionaly so they play on ignorant servers ----> They get banned/abused/mistreated ----> Clanners ask for people to open their eyes -----> They are told to make their own server -------> Clanners cannot make large pub games for themselves due to the imbalances
So unless there is a change with the server admins this cycle will kill NS. You want that to happen?
After reading the past 25 pages, I must give my opinion of the matter since I was the one who did decide that Guns4Back2School would not be disabling mp_blockscripts.
I am sad to see the community that I and my partner have created is being reflected in such a negative tone and almost being used as a posterchild for the possible-downfall of the entire NS community. I must retort these alligations with what I and my admins see as the most prosperous for my community, G4B2S, and for the whole NS community in general.
When Guns4Back2School was created (before NS was in public release), like all communities, it was based on the idea of FUN. Like everyone, the "clanners" and the "pubbers" it's what we are looking for. G4B2S obviously suits itself more towards "pubbers." I am not saying this is bad for the "clanners", but it's just not what we are about in general.
As we took in NS as our main serving-mod, we had three ways to go, which Hump (creator and owner) and I discussed in depth:
1. Become and NS-Mega-information site. Hosts maps, models, and strats, trying to be "one-size-fits-all", like what NSArmslab does.
2. Become more clan-oriented. Organized tournaments and competitions.
3. Fit rather to the "general player", someone who comes home after work, kicks back, and plays a few games of NS with some regulars in our servers, not freting about commanding strats or the newest models or fashions of gameplay.
We chose number three because it's just how we are. We don't have some global-conspiracy to conform everyone to play as "newbies" for the rest of their lives and be ignorant to the fact that their are more advanced game-tactics out there. As the server-operator, the head administrator who has sole control over what is going to be played as a map or mod, I CARE ABOUT THE NS COMMUNITY. I value the time, money, and work I put into my community, I enjoy it. I am very proud to be a part of helping Flayra and Co. producing a fantastic piece of art by bringing more people into the whole community in general.
As in Nada's point, he has a great one. Competitive play is great, but as for G4B2S, don't hold your breath. The purpose I see my server doing is to service new players and players who are not interested in competitive play. I removed myself from orginized clans and squads many years ago because for me, it wasn't fun, the workload got too demanding. Not everyone who plays games are there for the competitive play.
@Necrosis : <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->People run servers precisely for the privilege of running THEIR ideal of a good game. Not yours. Not mine. Not Flayra's. THEIRS. If their community dies, then they're doing something wrong. If their community flourishes, then they are doing something right.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
"Hey kids, if you can get away with inciting irrational hatred, you're doing something right!"
Sounds like a lesson for life to me :rolleyes: Because really, the largest mass of people is always uniformly the most educated and has never been wrong. Why bother using reason to justify our actions, when mob rule serves our purpose at the time?
Maybe because as a person running a free server, and already having no worrys about population no matter how hard you try to make everyone leave, the first and foremost thing on your mind should be how you're actually contribuiting to <i>the entire free mod.</i> Remember you didn't pay for this either (beyond voluntary donations), its exclusively a labor of love. While you're legally perfectly justified to warp new players minds all you like, <b>that does not automatically make it a noble act</b>. More than anything it would, although I find the label silly, make you a 'griefer' as Necrosis calls it, on a scale of the entire mod.
So while you're at it, you're entirely justified in your oppinions and actions. Its your good right to think people that have any scripts are 'griefers', and that we're having this discussion because they fear for their right to 'grief', not because they find your approach simply unethical and assume if you <i>knew the truth</i>, you wouldn't want to be doing it. You're also right to tell these people that its the internet, and wherever you provide the bandwidth you're free to do as you please.
But maybe, just maybe doing a good thing would be more rewarding than bunkering yourself in as close a homogenous community of xenophobia as possible, just "because you can". It really is up to you.
<!--QuoteBegin-Head crab+Nov 10 2004, 06:23 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Head crab @ Nov 10 2004, 06:23 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> The "Natural Selection" Allegory Of The Cave <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Head Crab, that is the best post evar...hilarious! <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Saltz: to my understanding, Necrosis's point is that, while it may not be noble, it certainly is not against the rules nor is it mean or evil to run a server how one like its. His other point is that yelling at server ops to play how one wants it and deliberately breaking the rules on their servers is greifing; he didn't say anything about having scripts immediately making somebody a greifer. One would be a greifer if he managed to bypass the blockscripts code to use scripts on an mp_blockscripts 1 server anyway.
It's sad. I find that I agree very much with Necrosis's point, but I a lot of posts simply sitting there disagreeing with him without putting forth any evidence. I'd love to hear what you guys think. I'm being honest. I'd hate to believe in something if there's a very solid point against it that I'm missing. That's not sarcasm; I'm dead serious.
<!--QuoteBegin-Suicidal Tendencies+Nov 10 2004, 06:08 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Suicidal Tendencies @ Nov 10 2004, 06:08 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> After reading the past 25 pages, I must give my opinion of the matter since I was the one who did decide that Guns4Back2School would not be disabling mp_blockscripts.
I am sad to see the community that I and my partner have created is being reflected in such a negative tone and almost being used as a posterchild for the possible-downfall of the entire NS community. I must retort these alligations with what I and my admins see as the most prosperous for my community, G4B2S, and for the whole NS community in general.
When Guns4Back2School was created (before NS was in public release), like all communities, it was based on the idea of FUN. Like everyone, the "clanners" and the "pubbers" it's what we are looking for. G4B2S obviously suits itself more towards "pubbers." I am not saying this is bad for the "clanners", but it's just not what we are about in general.
As we took in NS as our main serving-mod, we had three ways to go, which Hump (creator and owner) and I discussed in depth:
1. Become and NS-Mega-information site. Hosts maps, models, and strats, trying to be "one-size-fits-all", like what NSArmslab does.
2. Become more clan-oriented. Organized tournaments and competitions.
3. Fit rather to the "general player", someone who comes home after work, kicks back, and plays a few games of NS with some regulars in our servers, not freting about commanding strats or the newest models or fashions of gameplay.
We chose number three because it's just how we are. We don't have some global-conspiracy to conform everyone to play as "newbies" for the rest of their lives and be ignorant to the fact that their are more advanced game-tactics out there. As the server-operator, the head administrator who has sole control over what is going to be played as a map or mod, I CARE ABOUT THE NS COMMUNITY. I value the time, money, and work I put into my community, I enjoy it. I am very proud to be a part of helping Flayra and Co. producing a fantastic piece of art by bringing more people into the whole community in general.
As in Nada's point, he has a great one. Competitive play is great, but as for G4B2S, don't hold your breath. The purpose I see my server doing is to service new players and players who are not interested in competitive play. I removed myself from orginized clans and squads many years ago because for me, it wasn't fun, the workload got too demanding. Not everyone who plays games are there for the competitive play. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> See, this is a legitimate response to the bad rep you have been getting in this thread, actually, almost necessary. The problem is that you have failed to adress the issue which you are being criticized for. Yes you have every right to run you server the way you want to, just like the president has the unalienable right to run the country how he wants to, you just sure as hell be ready to defend your opinions.
The way you see it is that pesky people like TheAdj and Nadagast bring you a bad reputation by making you seem ignorant. Its annoying because, hell, you paid for the server and you are contributing to the ns community! They are too though. The way they see you contributing to the community is in a way that is facilitating the split between clanners and pubbers, so while respecting your right to run the server how you want, they also want to make it apparent what they believe to be a core issue with the natural-selection pub-clan relationship right now. Inevitably your server must be brought up (as other servers are [FAT] and lunixmonster for example) because they believe it, along with every other 'ignorant' pub, is a part of this core problem.
What you said seems like some BS to cover your community's reputation; its undeniable that you were intollerantly short with Nadagast and coming off indignant is not the way to do it. If you really want to contribute to the community enlighten us to what the views you have are, and how they justify treating clanners like you treated Nadagast. You're not the only server that is doing this, just the unfortunate one brought to public viewing.
My conclusion before I hit the sack: Necrosis has a good point that server ops should be able to set up their servers how they like it. However, the other good point in this issue is that it would be the <i>nice</i> thing to do to listen to legitimate arguments for and against blockscripts, and educate yourself, before you set up your server rules.
Come on guys, why can't we all just loooove each other? Here, have some peace pipe... <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
@stung256 - Your points are well taken, I wasn't articulate enough to address these issues, allow me to <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The way you see it is that pesky people like TheAdj and Nadagast bring you a bad reputation by making you seem ignorant. Its annoying because, hell, you paid for the server and you are contributing to the ns community! They are too though. The way they see you contributing to the community is in a way that is facilitating the split between clanners and pubbers, so while respecting your right to run the server how you want, they also want to make it apparent what they believe to be a core issue with the natural-selection pub-clan relationship right now. Inevitably your server must be brought up (as other servers are [FAT] and lunixmonster for example) because they believe it, along with every other 'ignorant' pub, is a part of this core problem. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Quite the contrary. I believe what TheAdj and Nadagast are doing are crucial for the growth and prosper of the NS community. Now calling my community and server as ignorant is rather demeaning in my opinion, instead, call us "not enlightened yet" to this movement.
I pay for the server and see myself contributing to the whole scene, but without people to use my service, I have no purpose, so it's not that I am throwing this back into someones face without a good reason. My reason is because my community doesn't want it at the moment.
On a personal note, I have nothing against TheAdj or Nadagast. I recently talked to TheAdj about another problem and I believe we both came off with the most professionalism and courtesy with each other, I value his views because of this. Nadagast I value for his views on how these types of things could "cause the destruction of Natural Selection." I was probably one of the accelerators of this discussion. He was in my server bunnyhopping (it was actually another term and might have been a different technique), and I told him to stop because it was irritating the rest of the players, he told me it was "his nature, why would he want to stop that?" My belief is that if you come to my server, you are held to the responsiblity to following my rules and my requests.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->What you said seems like some BS to cover your community's reputation; its undeniable that you were intollerantly short with Nadagast and coming off indignant is not the way to do it. If you really want to contribute to the community enlighten us to what the views you have are, and how they justify treating clanners like you treated Nadagast. You're not the only server that is doing this, just the unfortunate one brought to public viewing.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't see myself coming off short to Nadagast. My reason posting here is to itterate my view of things and to be a dignitary. The worst thing now is to come off harsh, hard, and rash, it does no good for any party. As a representative of my community, I have to make decisions for the good of my community, if I knew that this topic would congregate to such a massive level I would of approached it with much more causion but would of still made the same decision.
A request was made, by one person, for my community to turn off mp_blockscripts. It was the first request of it's kind made in my recent memory. Much resistance was shown by my staff and community to this decision. I decided it was best for my servers to not change the way of how they operate. It is indeed unfortunate that G4B2S had to be used as a posterchild for it, but I find value in that, providing structured debate.
I am one of the other admins on the guns servers. Just so that everyone is clear, his and anyone elses clan affiliation has nothing to do with how someone is treated on our servers. I for one didnt even know he was in a clan when i was called to spec him. So to say that he was teated diferent because he is from a clan is completly false. We make decisions based on each players actions ingame, on the forums and in irc.
The thread was locked, not because of any clan issue, but the discusion wasnt getting anywhere. We even reopened it to let our players and nad dissus it more, but still it got nowhere. Yes we have the right to run our server the way we want to, and we will. No one is forcing our players to come back, but they do, why, they like it there. If we werent given them what they wanted then they wouldn't come back. To say that we have to do something for the greater good of ns is bs. NO one knows what the greater good is. The best anyone can do is, make decsioned based on what you think is right and hope for the best. No one has the all mighty ssing eye of the future of were NS might be going to, so we offer what we think and feel is what a group of ns players want.
We as a server dont promote or disaprove of clans. We simply give a place for people to play. We have many regs who belive in teamwork, stagety, and winning, but we also have many new people who are new and want to learn. If they ask about scripts, we are more than happy to send them here to learn, but as ST stated the core of what we are about is not the competitve part of ns.
Why is it that both cant exist side by side. I myself was in a tfc clan many years ago and have never decided that a player would or should be treated diferently because of a clan affiation. I made a chose to move away from clans for my own reasons, but hold no ill will to anyone that is still in one.
Remember people this is a game, thats it. only a game, not a judgement on who you are, how smart you are or how good a person you are.
<!--QuoteBegin-SentrySteve+Nov 10 2004, 02:45 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (SentrySteve @ Nov 10 2004, 02:45 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-5kyh16h91+Nov 10 2004, 07:05 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (5kyh16h91 @ Nov 10 2004, 07:05 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> How <u>I</u> see that paragraph is, "Well, we never really know when an aimbotter or speedhacker will come on the server, nor do we know how to distinguish hacks from scripts. But instead of telling our admins to evaluate each individual case like good admins should, we just tell them to block scripts, because then we KNOW that anyone who is doing something we don't think is possible has to be hacking, and we can ban him accordingly." <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Who are you to dictate what a "good admin" is or what a "good admin" should do. Not your server. Not your money. Not your properity. Don't like it -- here's a crazy idea -- don't play there!
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->That's all I see there. Since scripting isn't an exploit, and by your argument you're trying to delay the spread of exploits to your server<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Looks like it! Too bad that's their server and all you can do is come here and complain! ^_~
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Not a good policy, IMO.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Luckly, your opinion is moot. <!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::gorge::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/pudgy.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='pudgy.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> /me takes point, folds it into a paper airplane, and sails it over your head /me thanks Gem for that line
How about instead of you attacking me for judging it as a good or bad practice, you defend your own side rather than attack mine? Please, justify to me how banning scripts to make hacks easier to spot is a fair practice. I'm not saying that's WHY mp_blockscripts is on on that server, I'm just saying that in his post, he was in effect saying that this was the case.
You call it complaining, I call it arguing/debating. Though you're doing neither, you're just trolling. As for my opinion being moot, at least I have a justifiable opinion, rather than endlessly repeating excuses and evading the questions.
Now that that's done, on to the actual debate.
If you really feel that bunnyhopping/scripting/whatever is upsetting your community, then fine, ban it in your server. But at the very least, let people make threads in your forums about the topic. The very fact that they were flamed so heavily indicates that the topic NEEDS to be discussed. I'm not saying you condone the discussion, but at least allow it. Let the flamers and trolls have their pass at a new thread; eventually they should get tired and the real discussion should begin, and it would be a very good education. Anyone who wants to play a game without scripters - though I can't see why - SHOULD BE ALLOWED TO DO SO. However, I believe it's your responsibility as a server operator, who has immense power over those who frequent the server, to clue your community in to both sides of the issue.
If and when you agree to let a discussion on your forum, we'll need a guinea pig to start a thread on those boards, and me thinks Nada has been tarnished....
Once more, said discussion would NOT be an attempt to change your server's rules, just to educate your players. They can still hate scripts all they want after that, see them as not part of the game, whatever, but hopefully such a discussion would help them to not hate the people who USE the scripts. That would be a fine start in the direction of healing the pub-clan rift. Hate the playstyle, but don't hate the player.
btw, I love the headcrab's analysis <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
His threads were seen as repetative. Came to the forums, made a request, and it was replied to and locked. We made our decision, making another post while having a third waiting, started by another person seemed repetative (not spam, as say). We reopened it because we saw the practicality to the argument, there was definately a good topic to discuss, but after awhile, it was the same old routine that strayed from the original proposal to what scripts do.
The decision and reasoning behind it I personally thought was well described.
Nadagast is a new face in our community, so not many members or admins knew of his status in the NS community because of his aliases. Blame that to whatever. The simple part of it was that in the beginning, I even asked him to stop, he declined to. Seeing the possible discussion bunnyhopping and such could create, I told him "Alright, you can do it for now" and left it at that since I decided it would be a topic at our monthly admin-meeting, and a topic in our own private forums.
Comments
Clanners are trying to help, and all I see is flames/hate
Clanners are trying to help, and all I see is flames/hate <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
On the flip side, I see plenty of arrogance from the clanners. Putting up disclaimers that "I'm not trying to come off as arrogant" don't really cut it.
Clanners are trying to help, and all I see is flames/hate <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
On the flip side, I see plenty of arrogance from the clanners. Putting up disclaimers that "I'm not trying to come off as arrogant" don't really cut it. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
how about accept it, and ignore any traces of arrogance at least for a while. i'm sure it would be good for you (and everyone else as well).
Right and I don't go around saying I'm better than everyone else, yet you say I do.
Anyway, want to play a game sometime? Maybe you can teach me a thing or two...
Besides, you're basing your entire argument on a logical fallacy. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
See thats funny because it'll never happen.
Necrosis doesn't play NS. Go to any of these "communities" which people have named in this thread & you'll find plenty more like him. People like him never play the game but they know absolutely everything there is to know about it (in their own mind) & are generally the most vocal people in IRC & forums while the rest of us are off enjoying a fine game of Natural Selection.
See the rest of you on the servers.
Show some Love people.
Clanners are trying to help, and all I see is flames/hate <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
On the flip side, I see plenty of arrogance from the clanners. Putting up disclaimers that "I'm not trying to come off as arrogant" don't really cut it. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
how about accept it, and ignore any traces of arrogance at least for a while. i'm sure it would be good for you (and everyone else as well). <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
This cannot be ignored, because it's a <i>fundamental part of the discussion</i>. The attitude I see is one of "any reasonable educated person would think this way, if you don't think this way you must be an bass-ackward tard". And they hammer this point over and over again.
hi ebnar how are you
how is bert
Actually I only voiced the opinion that necrosis was a wise man. I didn't say I *agreed* with him <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Pro: Works most of the time
Con: Like you said, leads to boring turret farms and games being dragged out because marines can't kill the mostly lamed up alien hive. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Why would they be unable to kill the hive ? Me thinks you account for some very crappy marines, and therefore some very crappy aliens, and perhaps a poor strategy. If it is just a last lamed hive, just siege that **** out, or grenade it
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Kindly ask him to drop a hive or DCs or something next game. I'm sure he'll oblige... if he can hear you <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html//emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ah.. if only that worked, if I see someone being a res **** every game in a row and he does have a vet icon, I don't even bother asking him. They know perfectly well what they're doing and won't listen.. if they seem normal pubbers, it might work, but a lot of people just want to play and not think.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Think ? Think about, what he's going to do next in the game, or think about how he's making other people feel bad ?
I find this man to be a cynical paternal authoritarian.
Popular opinion is always wrong. Lowest common denominator is not of high quality. What a fool thinks is not any more valid whether one person believes or 100,000.
There is such a thing as right and wrong, apart from emotions, apart from whatever it makes you feel.
There is such a thing as truth, and appearance and association do not make.
The fundamental issue is really that, some people are better at the game than others, and this is something that will not change.
BIG NOTE: the key word for the rest of my post is 'some' I have seen people who fit every type of discrption i have put forth, and more who haven't.
Summary of my post in a few points:
- pubbers AND clanners are both contributing to the rift between us
- both groups have to work to fix this
- if the devs helped, it might go along faster.
IMO the rift between pubbers and clanners is because neitehr side will listen to the other. There are pubbers who will ignore everything teh clanners say. But there are also clanners who ignore everything pubbers say.
Some clanners beleive that all pubbers simply don't get what they are saying. And they refuse to beleive that *gasp* a pubber could actaully know about scripting! *end gasp*
Some clanners also say they're trying to 'teach' when they just call people nubs for not knowing anything, in a very arrogant attitude. In fact, there are many instances in this thread where some seem to think that the problem lies solely with pubbers. Mr. Ben and Amplifier both seem to think so.
Pubbers too, have problems. Many of they are repeating the "scripts are bad" mantra and not getting anywhere. Alot don't listen at all to what anyone else has to say.
But the biggest problem by far is with teh community as a whole. Clanners are spreading thier hate for pubs around, and pubs are spreading thier hate for Clans around. Granted, not all do this, some are neutral. But we need to see more clans and pubs actively doign things to stop this rift from becoming bigger. Maybe it will help improve the clan scene, as well as clean up alot of the players who call scripts and hax on everything.
This was said a while ago, but the only real way to reach both of these communities in a large number are the Devs. Not to say that us, as players, have no part in this. We shoudl also try our best to fix this rift.
P.S. Gekko, I was taught bunnyhopping a long while ago, but never bothered to use it.
Edit: Omg hai fana!
omg hai fana! <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Stop it. I'm trying to lurk, here. <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/sad-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Good opporunity for me to state that both sides arguing this case have their fair
shares of problems with ignorance and misinformation. Yes, both. How can you
have a debate, when neither side has a clue what's going on?
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
See this has already been tried (several times).
It never works however because large games of clanners (skilled players) are always biased to the marines and therefore people stopped pubbing.
Clanners realized why large games sucked back in 2.01, and it's been 1 year later and no fix.
So of course the clanners see the problem and what happens?
1. They stop pubbing
2. They try to get the devs to fix it
Does 2 ever happen? Almost a year since THE HAMPTONS died, and is anyone ever listened to?
Dude it's a vicious cycle
Clanners cannot make large pub games for themselves due to the imbalances ---> Ask for devs to fix the game ---> Nothing happens, clanners still want to pub occasionaly so they play on ignorant servers ----> They get banned/abused/mistreated ----> Clanners ask for people to open their eyes -----> They are told to make their own server -------> Clanners cannot make large pub games for themselves due to the imbalances
So unless there is a change with the server admins this cycle will kill NS. You want that to happen?
I am sad to see the community that I and my partner have created is being reflected in such a negative tone and almost being used as a posterchild for the possible-downfall of the entire NS community. I must retort these alligations with what I and my admins see as the most prosperous for my community, G4B2S, and for the whole NS community in general.
When Guns4Back2School was created (before NS was in public release), like all communities, it was based on the idea of FUN. Like everyone, the "clanners" and the "pubbers" it's what we are looking for. G4B2S obviously suits itself more towards "pubbers." I am not saying this is bad for the "clanners", but it's just not what we are about in general.
As we took in NS as our main serving-mod, we had three ways to go, which Hump (creator and owner) and I discussed in depth:
1. Become and NS-Mega-information site. Hosts maps, models, and strats, trying to be "one-size-fits-all", like what NSArmslab does.
2. Become more clan-oriented. Organized tournaments and competitions.
3. Fit rather to the "general player", someone who comes home after work, kicks back, and plays a few games of NS with some regulars in our servers, not freting about commanding strats or the newest models or fashions of gameplay.
We chose number three because it's just how we are. We don't have some global-conspiracy to conform everyone to play as "newbies" for the rest of their lives and be ignorant to the fact that their are more advanced game-tactics out there. As the server-operator, the head administrator who has sole control over what is going to be played as a map or mod, I CARE ABOUT THE NS COMMUNITY. I value the time, money, and work I put into my community, I enjoy it. I am very proud to be a part of helping Flayra and Co. producing a fantastic piece of art by bringing more people into the whole community in general.
As in Nada's point, he has a great one. Competitive play is great, but as for G4B2S, don't hold your breath. The purpose I see my server doing is to service new players and players who are not interested in competitive play. I removed myself from orginized clans and squads many years ago because for me, it wasn't fun, the workload got too demanding. Not everyone who plays games are there for the competitive play.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->People run servers precisely for the privilege of running THEIR ideal of a good game. Not yours. Not mine. Not Flayra's. THEIRS. If their community dies, then they're doing something wrong. If their community flourishes, then they are doing something right.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
"Hey kids, if you can get away with inciting irrational hatred, you're doing something right!"
Sounds like a lesson for life to me :rolleyes: Because really, the largest mass of people is always uniformly the most educated and has never been wrong. Why bother using reason to justify our actions, when mob rule serves our purpose at the time?
Maybe because as a person running a free server, and already having no worrys about population no matter how hard you try to make everyone leave, the first and foremost thing on your mind should be how you're actually contribuiting to <i>the entire free mod.</i> Remember you didn't pay for this either (beyond voluntary donations), its exclusively a labor of love. While you're legally perfectly justified to warp new players minds all you like, <b>that does not automatically make it a noble act</b>. More than anything it would, although I find the label silly, make you a 'griefer' as Necrosis calls it, on a scale of the entire mod.
So while you're at it, you're entirely justified in your oppinions and actions. Its your good right to think people that have any scripts are 'griefers', and that we're having this discussion because they fear for their right to 'grief', not because they find your approach simply unethical and assume if you <i>knew the truth</i>, you wouldn't want to be doing it. You're also right to tell these people that its the internet, and wherever you provide the bandwidth you're free to do as you please.
But maybe, just maybe doing a good thing would be more rewarding than bunkering yourself in as close a homogenous community of xenophobia as possible, just "because you can". It really is up to you.
Head Crab, that is the best post evar...hilarious! <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
It's sad. I find that I agree very much with Necrosis's point, but I a lot of posts simply sitting there disagreeing with him without putting forth any evidence. I'd love to hear what you guys think. I'm being honest. I'd hate to believe in something if there's a very solid point against it that I'm missing. That's not sarcasm; I'm dead serious.
I am sad to see the community that I and my partner have created is being reflected in such a negative tone and almost being used as a posterchild for the possible-downfall of the entire NS community. I must retort these alligations with what I and my admins see as the most prosperous for my community, G4B2S, and for the whole NS community in general.
When Guns4Back2School was created (before NS was in public release), like all communities, it was based on the idea of FUN. Like everyone, the "clanners" and the "pubbers" it's what we are looking for. G4B2S obviously suits itself more towards "pubbers." I am not saying this is bad for the "clanners", but it's just not what we are about in general.
As we took in NS as our main serving-mod, we had three ways to go, which Hump (creator and owner) and I discussed in depth:
1. Become and NS-Mega-information site. Hosts maps, models, and strats, trying to be "one-size-fits-all", like what NSArmslab does.
2. Become more clan-oriented. Organized tournaments and competitions.
3. Fit rather to the "general player", someone who comes home after work, kicks back, and plays a few games of NS with some regulars in our servers, not freting about commanding strats or the newest models or fashions of gameplay.
We chose number three because it's just how we are. We don't have some global-conspiracy to conform everyone to play as "newbies" for the rest of their lives and be ignorant to the fact that their are more advanced game-tactics out there. As the server-operator, the head administrator who has sole control over what is going to be played as a map or mod, I CARE ABOUT THE NS COMMUNITY. I value the time, money, and work I put into my community, I enjoy it. I am very proud to be a part of helping Flayra and Co. producing a fantastic piece of art by bringing more people into the whole community in general.
As in Nada's point, he has a great one. Competitive play is great, but as for G4B2S, don't hold your breath. The purpose I see my server doing is to service new players and players who are not interested in competitive play. I removed myself from orginized clans and squads many years ago because for me, it wasn't fun, the workload got too demanding. Not everyone who plays games are there for the competitive play. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
See, this is a legitimate response to the bad rep you have been getting in this thread, actually, almost necessary. The problem is that you have failed to adress the issue which you are being criticized for. Yes you have every right to run you server the way you want to, just like the president has the unalienable right to run the country how he wants to, you just sure as hell be ready to defend your opinions.
The way you see it is that pesky people like TheAdj and Nadagast bring you a bad reputation by making you seem ignorant. Its annoying because, hell, you paid for the server and you are contributing to the ns community! They are too though. The way they see you contributing to the community is in a way that is facilitating the split between clanners and pubbers, so while respecting your right to run the server how you want, they also want to make it apparent what they believe to be a core issue with the natural-selection pub-clan relationship right now. Inevitably your server must be brought up (as other servers are [FAT] and lunixmonster for example) because they believe it, along with every other 'ignorant' pub, is a part of this core problem.
What you said seems like some BS to cover your community's reputation; its undeniable that you were intollerantly short with Nadagast and coming off indignant is not the way to do it. If you really want to contribute to the community enlighten us to what the views you have are, and how they justify treating clanners like you treated Nadagast. You're not the only server that is doing this, just the unfortunate one brought to public viewing.
Thanks and sorry for this,
stank
Come on guys, why can't we all just loooove each other? Here, have some peace pipe... <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The way you see it is that pesky people like TheAdj and Nadagast bring you a bad reputation by making you seem ignorant. Its annoying because, hell, you paid for the server and you are contributing to the ns community! They are too though. The way they see you contributing to the community is in a way that is facilitating the split between clanners and pubbers, so while respecting your right to run the server how you want, they also want to make it apparent what they believe to be a core issue with the natural-selection pub-clan relationship right now. Inevitably your server must be brought up (as other servers are [FAT] and lunixmonster for example) because they believe it, along with every other 'ignorant' pub, is a part of this core problem.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Quite the contrary. I believe what TheAdj and Nadagast are doing are crucial for the growth and prosper of the NS community. Now calling my community and server as ignorant is rather demeaning in my opinion, instead, call us "not enlightened yet" to this movement.
I pay for the server and see myself contributing to the whole scene, but without people to use my service, I have no purpose, so it's not that I am throwing this back into someones face without a good reason. My reason is because my community doesn't want it at the moment.
On a personal note, I have nothing against TheAdj or Nadagast. I recently talked to TheAdj about another problem and I believe we both came off with the most professionalism and courtesy with each other, I value his views because of this. Nadagast I value for his views on how these types of things could "cause the destruction of Natural Selection." I was probably one of the accelerators of this discussion. He was in my server bunnyhopping (it was actually another term and might have been a different technique), and I told him to stop because it was irritating the rest of the players, he told me it was "his nature, why would he want to stop that?" My belief is that if you come to my server, you are held to the responsiblity to following my rules and my requests.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->What you said seems like some BS to cover your community's reputation; its undeniable that you were intollerantly short with Nadagast and coming off indignant is not the way to do it. If you really want to contribute to the community enlighten us to what the views you have are, and how they justify treating clanners like you treated Nadagast. You're not the only server that is doing this, just the unfortunate one brought to public viewing.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't see myself coming off short to Nadagast. My reason posting here is to itterate my view of things and to be a dignitary. The worst thing now is to come off harsh, hard, and rash, it does no good for any party. As a representative of my community, I have to make decisions for the good of my community, if I knew that this topic would congregate to such a massive level I would of approached it with much more causion but would of still made the same decision.
A request was made, by one person, for my community to turn off mp_blockscripts. It was the first request of it's kind made in my recent memory. Much resistance was shown by my staff and community to this decision. I decided it was best for my servers to not change the way of how they operate. It is indeed unfortunate that G4B2S had to be used as a posterchild for it, but I find value in that, providing structured debate.
Just so that everyone is clear, his and anyone elses clan affiliation has nothing to do with how someone is treated on our servers. I for one didnt even know he was in a clan when i was called to spec him. So to say that he was teated diferent because he is from a clan is completly false. We make decisions based on each players actions ingame, on the forums and in irc.
The thread was locked, not because of any clan issue, but the discusion wasnt getting anywhere. We even reopened it to let our players and nad dissus it more, but still it got nowhere. Yes we have the right to run our server the way we want to, and we will. No one is forcing our players to come back, but they do, why, they like it there. If we werent given them what they wanted then they wouldn't come back. To say that we have to do something for the greater good of ns is bs. NO one knows what the greater good is. The best anyone can do is, make decsioned based on what you think is right and hope for the best. No one has the all mighty ssing eye of the future of were NS might be going to, so we offer what we think and feel is what a group of ns players want.
We as a server dont promote or disaprove of clans. We simply give a place for people to play. We have many regs who belive in teamwork, stagety, and winning, but we also have many new people who are new and want to learn. If they ask about scripts, we are more than happy to send them here to learn, but as ST stated the core of what we are about is not the competitve part of ns.
Why is it that both cant exist side by side. I myself was in a tfc clan many years ago and have never decided that a player would or should be treated diferently because of a clan affiation. I made a chose to move away from clans for my own reasons, but hold no ill will to anyone that is still in one.
Remember people this is a game, thats it. only a game, not a judgement on who you are, how smart you are or how good a person you are.
just a game
stank
Who are you to dictate what a "good admin" is or what a "good admin" should do. Not your server. Not your money. Not your properity. Don't like it -- here's a crazy idea -- don't play there!
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->That's all I see there. Since scripting isn't an exploit, and by your argument you're trying to delay the spread of exploits to your server<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Looks like it! Too bad that's their server and all you can do is come here and complain! ^_~
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Not a good policy, IMO.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Luckly, your opinion is moot. <!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::gorge::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/pudgy.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='pudgy.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
/me takes point, folds it into a paper airplane, and sails it over your head
/me thanks Gem for that line
How about instead of you attacking me for judging it as a good or bad practice, you defend your own side rather than attack mine? Please, justify to me how banning scripts to make hacks easier to spot is a fair practice. I'm not saying that's WHY mp_blockscripts is on on that server, I'm just saying that in his post, he was in effect saying that this was the case.
You call it complaining, I call it arguing/debating. Though you're doing neither, you're just trolling. As for my opinion being moot, at least I have a justifiable opinion, rather than endlessly repeating excuses and evading the questions.
Now that that's done, on to the actual debate.
If you really feel that bunnyhopping/scripting/whatever is upsetting your community, then fine, ban it in your server. But at the very least, let people make threads in your forums about the topic. The very fact that they were flamed so heavily indicates that the topic NEEDS to be discussed. I'm not saying you condone the discussion, but at least allow it. Let the flamers and trolls have their pass at a new thread; eventually they should get tired and the real discussion should begin, and it would be a very good education.
Anyone who wants to play a game without scripters - though I can't see why - SHOULD BE ALLOWED TO DO SO. However, I believe it's your responsibility as a server operator, who has immense power over those who frequent the server, to clue your community in to both sides of the issue.
If and when you agree to let a discussion on your forum, we'll need a guinea pig to start a thread on those boards, and me thinks Nada has been tarnished....
Once more, said discussion would NOT be an attempt to change your server's rules, just to educate your players. They can still hate scripts all they want after that, see them as not part of the game, whatever, but hopefully such a discussion would help them to not hate the people who USE the scripts. That would be a fine start in the direction of healing the pub-clan rift. Hate the playstyle, but don't hate the player.
btw, I love the headcrab's analysis <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
His threads were seen as repetative. Came to the forums, made a request, and it was replied to and locked. We made our decision, making another post while having a third waiting, started by another person seemed repetative (not spam, as say). We reopened it because we saw the practicality to the argument, there was definately a good topic to discuss, but after awhile, it was the same old routine that strayed from the original proposal to what scripts do.
The decision and reasoning behind it I personally thought was well described.
Nadagast is a new face in our community, so not many members or admins knew of his status in the NS community because of his aliases. Blame that to whatever. The simple part of it was that in the beginning, I even asked him to stop, he declined to. Seeing the possible discussion bunnyhopping and such could create, I told him "Alright, you can do it for now" and left it at that since I decided it would be a topic at our monthly admin-meeting, and a topic in our own private forums.