It's more of a moral issue actually. Quoted from the Southern Baptist Convention's Position on Sexual Orientation <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The SBC's Christian Life Commission publishes a pamphlet called Critical Issues: Homosexuality. It states that:
The many Bible passages that are commonly quoted as condemning homosexuality are valid
People can change their sexual orientation
Homosexual orientation is not "caused" by hormonal imbalance or genetic factors, but by an unhealthy relationship with one's parents
People cannot be pigeonholed into two classifications: homosexual or heterosexual. A continuum exists which includes various degrees of bisexuality
Although homosexuality is a sin, it is not the unpardonable sin, or the most terrible of sins.
Homosexuals can only lead moral lives by remaining celibate
Discrimination against *** and lesbians is proper, in the areas of: employment to protect the (presumably heterosexual) "family" to protect other social institutions <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> ... nuff said <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin-Depot+Feb 19 2005, 05:52 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Depot @ Feb 19 2005, 05:52 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> It's more of a moral issue actually. Quoted from the Southern Baptist Convention's Position on Sexual Orientation <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The SBC's Christian Life Commission publishes a pamphlet called Critical Issues: Homosexuality. It states that:
The many Bible passages that are commonly quoted as condemning homosexuality are valid
People can change their sexual orientation
Homosexual orientation is not "caused" by hormonal imbalance or genetic factors, but by an unhealthy relationship with one's parents
People cannot be pigeonholed into two classifications: homosexual or heterosexual. A continuum exists which includes various degrees of bisexuality
Although homosexuality is a sin, it is not the unpardonable sin, or the most terrible of sins.
Homosexuals can only lead moral lives by remaining celibate
Discrimination against *** and lesbians is proper, in the areas of: employment to protect the (presumably heterosexual) "family" to protect other social institutions <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Well damn. A quote from the Southern Baptist Conventions Christian Life Commission. That will surely be unbiased and a fair representation of the both sides of the arguement.
1: Quotes from the bible do not and should not bear upon people who are not Christian.
2: How? Explain to me how in a humane way you can change someones sexual orientation.
3: I know plenty of people who have unhappy home lives and aren't ****, and I know plenty of people who have perfectly happy home lives and are ****.
4: Ok
5: Again, the bible doesn't bear upon people who don't follow it. I'd listen to the bible as equally as I'd listen to any other book of religion.
6: See above. Also, an explanation would be nice.
7: I suppose it's ok against black people, transsexuals and any other minorities, too. Please prove this to me.
I think that with ".. nuff said <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->", he was being ironic.
<!--QuoteBegin-Depot+Feb 19 2005, 04:10 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Depot @ Feb 19 2005, 04:10 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I don't know why you think STDs and safe sex weren't talked about in the late 70's and 80's, because that's totally false (I doubt you were around then). Granted it wasn't on the level it is now due to HIV but don't say it wasn't talked about because I heard plenty on it. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I believe information about STD's back then was restricted to visible cahracteristics. People knew that if there was something visibly wrong with another person's genitals (as is the case with most forms of STD) that it was a communicable disease.
HIV has no visible symptoms, you cannot inspect another person and tell if they have this disease. I believe (no i was not active in the **** community in the 1970's) that when one person saw that another person looked clean, they were presumed to be clean. This would lead to the rampant spread of the virus among sexual partners.
Diseases that are communicable before they show symptoms always spread like wildfire among the unprotected. The flu works similarly, it can be spread for a few days before any symptoms arise, and before you kno youve got it you wont take precautions to prevent its spread either!
//im straight and was born in 84. //Depot, thanks for pointing out my typos, and is that avatar from BaseWars?
@Zel: Well stated, thanks. As to the avatar, as often as I get asked that I really need to find out ... I simply don't remember atm. <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
TalesinOur own little well of hateJoin Date: 2002-11-08Member: 7710NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators
It was a stern warning lolfighter.
And for those who don't quite know, Southern Baptism is akin to the christian version of Scientology. As an example, I have a friend who decided to leave the church. Her only friends had ever been a part of that church. The problem was.. she had a son. And they didn't like the idea that he would be raised in any other (godless) environment. They appointed a couple from the congregation to sue for custody, and with the massive amount of character witnesses, had the child removed from his mother (deemed mentally unfit to be a parent), and placed in a hatemongering home.
And this is not a friend-of-a-friend; she reluctantly explained what had happened after a number of months. She is also quite sane and sound of mind, in case anyone was wondering. Unfortunately the state refuses to overturn the decision, as her child has already settled into his new life.
<!--QuoteBegin-Talesin+Feb 19 2005, 05:25 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Talesin @ Feb 19 2005, 05:25 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->It is a threat, and is treated as one in the homosexual community, but is seen as the '**** disease' by the heterosexual<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> <!--QuoteBegin-Talesin @ Feb 19 2005+ 05:25 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Talesin @ Feb 19 2005 @ 05:25 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Knee-jerk bigotry is not welcomed here<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin-Talesin+Feb 19 2005, 08:40 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Talesin @ Feb 19 2005, 08:40 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> It was a stern warning lolfighter.
And for those who don't quite know, Southern Baptism is akin to the christian version of Scientology. As an example, I have a friend who decided to leave the church. Her only friends had ever been a part of that church. The problem was.. she had a son. And they didn't like the idea that he would be raised in any other (godless) environment. They appointed a couple from the congregation to sue for custody, and with the massive amount of character witnesses, had the child removed from his mother (deemed mentally unfit to be a parent), and placed in a hatemongering home.
And this is not a friend-of-a-friend; she reluctantly explained what had happened after a number of months. She is also quite sane and sound of mind, in case anyone was wondering. Unfortunately the state refuses to overturn the decision, as her child has already settled into his new life. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Jesus......
Or the lack thereof.... <!--emo&::marine::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/marine.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='marine.gif' /><!--endemo-->
That is one of the greatest abominations of justice and religion I have ever heard.
And Edward: It's not simple bigotry if there are examples of that way of thinking all around you. I'd be hard pressed to give a real statistic, but I would say that the notion that AIDS is the "**** disease" is present in 1/3 to 1/2 of all Americans' minds.
<!--QuoteBegin-SkulkBait+Feb 19 2005, 03:56 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (SkulkBait @ Feb 19 2005, 03:56 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-AvengerX+Feb 19 2005, 02:00 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (AvengerX @ Feb 19 2005, 02:00 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Caboose+Feb 19 2005, 01:45 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Caboose @ Feb 19 2005, 01:45 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-AvengerX+Feb 19 2005, 12:12 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (AvengerX @ Feb 19 2005, 12:12 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> and if I couldn't get the girls... wouldn't I be PRO-homo... don't ya think that makes sense? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> So... are you saying that people turn to homosexuality out of desperation for sex? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> that could be one reason. among others. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> As a man desperate for sex, I can assure you that it isn't a cause of homosexuality in any way shape or form. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> thats why when your in prison you make sure not to drop the soap huh? I'm pretty sure thats the cause of all that
<!--QuoteBegin-Sky+Feb 19 2005, 09:40 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Sky @ Feb 19 2005, 09:40 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> And Edward: It's not simple bigotry if there are examples of that way of thinking all around you. I'd be hard pressed to give a real statistic, but I would say that the notion that AIDS is the "**** disease" is present in 1/3 to 1/2 of all Americans' minds. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> So if I move to a strife ridden area of Isreal, then proceed to say all Palestinians are terrorists, I'm not a bigot by virtue of the fact that I witness a fair number of them committing terrorist acts? Please. Bigotry is bigotry, and there is no excuse for it.
<!--QuoteBegin-AvengerX+Feb 19 2005, 09:41 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (AvengerX @ Feb 19 2005, 09:41 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-SkulkBait+Feb 19 2005, 03:56 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (SkulkBait @ Feb 19 2005, 03:56 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-AvengerX+Feb 19 2005, 02:00 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (AvengerX @ Feb 19 2005, 02:00 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Caboose+Feb 19 2005, 01:45 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Caboose @ Feb 19 2005, 01:45 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-AvengerX+Feb 19 2005, 12:12 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (AvengerX @ Feb 19 2005, 12:12 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> and if I couldn't get the girls... wouldn't I be PRO-homo... don't ya think that makes sense? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> So... are you saying that people turn to homosexuality out of desperation for sex? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> that could be one reason. among others. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> As a man desperate for sex, I can assure you that it isn't a cause of homosexuality in any way shape or form. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> thats why when your in prison you make sure not to drop the soap huh? I'm pretty sure thats the cause of all that <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Somehow I think there are OTHER FACTORS THAN LACK OF SEX in prison as opposed to public life. First of all, the people are more liable to being slightly off-center; they're in prison after all. Secondly, there's the mental anguish caused by boredom, repetitive labor, general physical abuse, etc. I guarantee that a lot of the homosexual activity in prison is more a result of twisted minds rather than actual homosexuality, as opposed to "normal" homosexuals.
[edit because I'm trying to avoid double posting] @Edward: he said, and I quote: <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> It[...]is seen as the '**** disease' by the heterosexual<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Note that he didn't say "all" heterosexuals, he said "the" heterosexual. One generalizes a population down to a single way of thought, the other lays out the idea that it is a heterosexual idea to assume that AIDS is the "**** disease". Note that the latter is different from your scenario.
so now theres "normal" and non-"normal" types of homosexuality, as far as I'm concerend theres nothing "normal" with any of it.
but since you guys are so willing to accecpt it thats cool I guess... how about Polygamy? if you think a Man can love another man... why can't a man love 5 diffrent women and support them all? huh, if you guys think people should be able to do whatever they want as long as it doesn't effect others
<!--QuoteBegin-AvengerX+Feb 19 2005, 09:50 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (AvengerX @ Feb 19 2005, 09:50 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> so now theres "normal" and non-"normal" types of homosexuality, as far as I'm concerend theres nothing "normal" with any of it.
but since you guys are so willing to accecpt it thats cool I guess... how about paligmany? if you think a Man can love another man... why can't a man love 5 diffrent women and support them all? huh, if you guys think people should be able to do whatever they want as long as it doesn't effect others <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Love isn't limited solely to two people. You can be in love with more than one person. (I've felt it before.)
But I'm not going to elaborate or participate any further in this discussion. Your logic is extremely flawed and it's pointless to debate with you.
[EDIT:] And since you're so concerned with being normal, turn your computer off. Sell everything you own, strip naked and live in a forest, hunting other animals for food and using caves as shelter from the weather. That would be what is normal for any animal, including humans.
<!--QuoteBegin-CForrester+Feb 19 2005, 09:54 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (CForrester @ Feb 19 2005, 09:54 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-AvengerX+Feb 19 2005, 09:50 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (AvengerX @ Feb 19 2005, 09:50 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> so now theres "normal" and non-"normal" types of homosexuality, as far as I'm concerend theres nothing "normal" with any of it.
but since you guys are so willing to accecpt it thats cool I guess... how about paligmany? if you think a Man can love another man... why can't a man love 5 diffrent women and support them all? huh, if you guys think people should be able to do whatever they want as long as it doesn't effect others <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Love isn't limited solely to two people. You can be in love with more than one person. (I've felt it before.)
But I'm not going to elaborate or participate any further in this discussion. Your logic is extremely flawed and it's pointless to debate with you. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> hehehe... I just noticed you were born in 88 same year as me. and maybe I'm just a little behind but I've never been in "love" , I've had plenty of crushes and realtionships. but I don't think you can really understand something like "love" at age 17.... but maybe thats just me. if you want to knock yourself off romeo, you totally go for it.
<!--QuoteBegin-AvengerX+Feb 19 2005, 09:50 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (AvengerX @ Feb 19 2005, 09:50 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> so now theres "normal" and non-"normal" types of homosexuality, as far as I'm concerend theres nothing "normal" with any of it. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> No, there are "normal" and non-"normal" types of people, and I'm sorry but comparing the behaviors of free citizens to people who have been locked up for God knows how long in a very tense environment is simply stupid.
<!--QuoteBegin-AvengerX+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (AvengerX)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->hehehe... I just noticed you were born in 88 same year as me. and maybe I'm just a little behind but I've never been in "love" , I've had plenty of crushes and realtionships. but I don't think you can really understand something like "love" at age 17.... but maybe thats just me. if you want to knock yourself off romeo, you totally go for it. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> You know, if this were any other forum, I would make a puberty joke or something like that. As is, I'll just say that was in poor taste, and recommend that this dead-end discussion get locked, which I know Talesin wants to do anyway.
I don't really know if this topic is dead yet or not. but it might as well be.. no one is really bringing anything to the table and no one is going to change their opinion... so were just kinda slugging it out with pointless verbal insults and what have you.
<!--QuoteBegin-AvengerX+Feb 19 2005, 10:03 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (AvengerX @ Feb 19 2005, 10:03 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I don't really know if this topic is dead yet or not. but it might as well be.. no one is really bringing anything to the table and no one is going to change their opinion... so were just kinda slugging it out with pointless verbal insults and what have you. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> When you started this topic it was not aimed to stimulate meaningful discussion it was simply another snipe at a lifestyle you disagree with.
I really don't know what you expect the rest of us "to bring to the table" when you've pretty much smeared the whole thing with a decent layer of intolerance and close-mindedness from post #1.
According to you (apparently) when one is a homosexual one is: i) Incapable of genuine love ii) Incapable of practicing safe sex iii) Automatically attracted (and a threat) to small children iv) A drain on the economy v) Unethical and immoral
To be frank you're simply not living in the same reality as the rest of us. I have homosexual friends and <b> none </b> of the above points apply to them.
<!--QuoteBegin-AvengerX+Feb 19 2005, 09:03 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (AvengerX @ Feb 19 2005, 09:03 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I don't really know if this topic is dead yet or not. but it might as well be.. no one is really bringing anything to the table and no one is going to change their opinion... so were just kinda slugging it out with pointless verbal insults and what have you. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> This is a discussion forum, you know. There have been a lot of things brought up to the table, they just don't agree with your homophobia, that's all.
I have a difficult time when people argue that its bad solely because its said in whatever miscellaneous religious text, sorry, but, those text regardless of how much control they excise over the blind or fearful, they were still written by man, flawed. It is also illogical and foolish to try and impliment ancient morals and values on modern society.
Also i want to add that just because someone does not approve of their behavior does not make it homophobia. Homophobia's definition implies fear. I do not have cold sweats and nightmares over two men having sex. I don't like it because it is wrong for two of the same sex to attempt copulation. However, if they do it to show their love for one another and do it in private than I am fine with it.
However, to dislike homosexuality out of fear alone is foolish, then I condone the use of "Homophobia" as a label.
Personally? I don't care what two adults do in private as long as <ul><li>I am not involved</li><li>Children are not involved</li><li>Animals are not being abused.</li></ul>
<!--QuoteBegin-Talesin+Feb 19 2005, 08:40 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Talesin @ Feb 19 2005, 08:40 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> It was a stern warning lolfighter.
And for those who don't quite know, Southern Baptism is akin to the christian version of Scientology. As an example, I have a friend who decided to leave the church. Her only friends had ever been a part of that church. The problem was.. she had a son. And they didn't like the idea that he would be raised in any other (godless) environment. They appointed a couple from the congregation to sue for custody, and with the massive amount of character witnesses, had the child removed from his mother (deemed mentally unfit to be a parent), and placed in a hatemongering home.
And this is not a friend-of-a-friend; she reluctantly explained what had happened after a number of months. She is also quite sane and sound of mind, in case anyone was wondering. Unfortunately the state refuses to overturn the decision, as her child has already settled into his new life. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> If that happened to me you'd have a dead congregation overnight. Don't care about being captured or killed by the law, me, my silenced SIG, and a bunch of very devout and very mutilated corpses. <!--emo&:angry:--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/mad-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='mad-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Back on "topic" (if you can call it that), Avenger's "points" were really too laughable to comment on, but I pretty much agree with what has been said by everyone else (except possibly Depot).
Avenger seems to think that prison rape is the same as consentual homosexuality.
prison rape is about superiority, exerting power, defiling the new inmates to show your superiority. its a horrible thing done by horrible people in horrible conditions and it has nothing to do with gender roles.
/i tried writing more but it's too late at night to be coherent.
<!--QuoteBegin-Sky+Feb 19 2005, 10:24 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Sky @ Feb 19 2005, 10:24 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> This thread never even had a shot at producing meaningful discussion. The community is still reeling from the last homosexuality war. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> yeah well ya know... the war between good and evil has raged on for quite a bit
<!--QuoteBegin-AvengerX+Feb 20 2005, 01:12 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (AvengerX @ Feb 20 2005, 01:12 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Sky+Feb 19 2005, 10:24 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Sky @ Feb 19 2005, 10:24 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> This thread never even had a shot at producing meaningful discussion. The community is still reeling from the last homosexuality war. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> yeah well ya know... the war between good and evil has raged on for quite a bit <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> So homosexuality is evil now? Murder is evil, things that directly harm others are evil. Two people of the same gender doing the bumb n' grind is not evil, nor is love, be that hetrosexual or homosexual love.
<!--QuoteBegin-Caboose+Feb 20 2005, 02:54 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Caboose @ Feb 20 2005, 02:54 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-AvengerX+Feb 20 2005, 01:12 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (AvengerX @ Feb 20 2005, 01:12 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Sky+Feb 19 2005, 10:24 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Sky @ Feb 19 2005, 10:24 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> This thread never even had a shot at producing meaningful discussion. The community is still reeling from the last homosexuality war. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> yeah well ya know... the war between good and evil has raged on for quite a bit <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> So homosexuality is evil now? Murder is evil, things that directly harm others are evil. Two people of the same gender doing the bumb n' grind is not evil, nor is love, be that hetrosexual or homosexual love. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> yeah, its sad to see that people are so disensatized they can't tell good from evil anymore. oh well, theres still people in the world with standerds... just not many that play NS
<!--QuoteBegin-AvengerX+Feb 20 2005, 03:01 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (AvengerX @ Feb 20 2005, 03:01 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> yeah, its sad to see that people are so disensatized they can't tell good from evil anymore. oh well, theres still people in the world with standerds... just not many that play NS <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Still staying out of this discussion, just poking at your very flawed logic from the sidelines.
You haven't explained why it's evil. Do you have any logical reason why you think homosexuality is wrong? Is it something other than "Thuh bibul sez it iz"?
Ask yourself that. Why do you think it's wrong? Why do you think that the Bible says that it's wrong? Is that reason really logical to you? Think about it for a while, don't just bash people over the heads with scripture written by fallible humans and then translated by other fallible humans.
TalesinOur own little well of hateJoin Date: 2002-11-08Member: 7710NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators
At this point it seems pretty clear that AvengerX is simply trolling. If he wants to label the homosexual community as 'evil', he's quite able to pick up a cross and don his white hood... on his own dime, in his own town, face to face... where if people take offense, they can beat him down.
That's the beautiful part about the internet. The bigots don't have to be afraid of a punch in the nose when they go too far, as the people they're insulting are hundreds if not tens of thousands of miles away.
Given that there is no actual argument against homosexuality (believe all you want, as soon as your beliefs start impinging on my life, we'll have words) listed anywhere in this thread...
Sorry to reopen this, but this IS the discussion forum and this topic hasn't gotten to hot to handle yet (feel free to override this mods).
Perhaps any of those against homosexuality here would start to change their minds if they knew that various members of the NS dev team (past and present) were/are not heterosexual.
There is lots of interesting discussion of the implied "homosexual=pederasty" link throughout queer studies (summarized in the very readable "<a href='http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0375501649/104-6011634-2384764' target='_blank'>The Velveteen Father</a>").
The trouble is that there's not that much more to discuss. The second AvengerX said that it was a matter of "good versus evil", all reason for posting evaporated.
Comments
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The SBC's Christian Life Commission publishes a pamphlet called Critical Issues: Homosexuality. It states that:
The many Bible passages that are commonly quoted as condemning homosexuality are valid
People can change their sexual orientation
Homosexual orientation is not "caused" by hormonal imbalance or genetic factors, but by an unhealthy relationship with one's parents
People cannot be pigeonholed into two classifications: homosexual or heterosexual. A continuum exists which includes various degrees of bisexuality
Although homosexuality is a sin, it is not the unpardonable sin, or the most terrible of sins.
Homosexuals can only lead moral lives by remaining celibate
Discrimination against *** and lesbians is proper, in the areas of:
employment
to protect the (presumably heterosexual) "family"
to protect other social institutions <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
... nuff said <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The SBC's Christian Life Commission publishes a pamphlet called Critical Issues: Homosexuality. It states that:
The many Bible passages that are commonly quoted as condemning homosexuality are valid
People can change their sexual orientation
Homosexual orientation is not "caused" by hormonal imbalance or genetic factors, but by an unhealthy relationship with one's parents
People cannot be pigeonholed into two classifications: homosexual or heterosexual. A continuum exists which includes various degrees of bisexuality
Although homosexuality is a sin, it is not the unpardonable sin, or the most terrible of sins.
Homosexuals can only lead moral lives by remaining celibate
Discrimination against *** and lesbians is proper, in the areas of:
employment
to protect the (presumably heterosexual) "family"
to protect other social institutions <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well damn. A quote from the Southern Baptist Conventions Christian Life Commission. That will surely be unbiased and a fair representation of the both sides of the arguement.
1: Quotes from the bible do not and should not bear upon people who are not Christian.
2: How? Explain to me how in a humane way you can change someones sexual orientation.
3: I know plenty of people who have unhappy home lives and aren't ****, and I know plenty of people who have perfectly happy home lives and are ****.
4: Ok
5: Again, the bible doesn't bear upon people who don't follow it. I'd listen to the bible as equally as I'd listen to any other book of religion.
6: See above. Also, an explanation would be nice.
7: I suppose it's ok against black people, transsexuals and any other minorities, too. Please prove this to me.
I believe information about STD's back then was restricted to visible cahracteristics. People knew that if there was something visibly wrong with another person's genitals (as is the case with most forms of STD) that it was a communicable disease.
HIV has no visible symptoms, you cannot inspect another person and tell if they have this disease. I believe (no i was not active in the **** community in the 1970's) that when one person saw that another person looked clean, they were presumed to be clean. This would lead to the rampant spread of the virus among sexual partners.
Diseases that are communicable before they show symptoms always spread like wildfire among the unprotected. The flu works similarly, it can be spread for a few days before any symptoms arise, and before you kno youve got it you wont take precautions to prevent its spread either!
//im straight and was born in 84.
//Depot, thanks for pointing out my typos, and is that avatar from BaseWars?
And for those who don't quite know, Southern Baptism is akin to the christian version of Scientology. As an example, I have a friend who decided to leave the church. Her only friends had ever been a part of that church. The problem was.. she had a son. And they didn't like the idea that he would be raised in any other (godless) environment. They appointed a couple from the congregation to sue for custody, and with the massive amount of character witnesses, had the child removed from his mother (deemed mentally unfit to be a parent), and placed in a hatemongering home.
And this is not a friend-of-a-friend; she reluctantly explained what had happened after a number of months. She is also quite sane and sound of mind, in case anyone was wondering. Unfortunately the state refuses to overturn the decision, as her child has already settled into his new life.
<!--QuoteBegin-Talesin @ Feb 19 2005+ 05:25 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Talesin @ Feb 19 2005 @ 05:25 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Knee-jerk bigotry is not welcomed here<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And for those who don't quite know, Southern Baptism is akin to the christian version of Scientology. As an example, I have a friend who decided to leave the church. Her only friends had ever been a part of that church. The problem was.. she had a son. And they didn't like the idea that he would be raised in any other (godless) environment. They appointed a couple from the congregation to sue for custody, and with the massive amount of character witnesses, had the child removed from his mother (deemed mentally unfit to be a parent), and placed in a hatemongering home.
And this is not a friend-of-a-friend; she reluctantly explained what had happened after a number of months. She is also quite sane and sound of mind, in case anyone was wondering. Unfortunately the state refuses to overturn the decision, as her child has already settled into his new life. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Jesus......
Or the lack thereof.... <!--emo&::marine::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/marine.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='marine.gif' /><!--endemo-->
That is one of the greatest abominations of justice and religion I have ever heard.
And Edward: It's not simple bigotry if there are examples of that way of thinking all around you. I'd be hard pressed to give a real statistic, but I would say that the notion that AIDS is the "**** disease" is present in 1/3 to 1/2 of all Americans' minds.
So... are you saying that people turn to homosexuality out of desperation for sex? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
that could be one reason. among others. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
As a man desperate for sex, I can assure you that it isn't a cause of homosexuality in any way shape or form. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
thats why when your in prison you make sure not to drop the soap huh? I'm pretty sure thats the cause of all that
So if I move to a strife ridden area of Isreal, then proceed to say all Palestinians are terrorists, I'm not a bigot by virtue of the fact that I witness a fair number of them committing terrorist acts? Please. Bigotry is bigotry, and there is no excuse for it.
So... are you saying that people turn to homosexuality out of desperation for sex? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
that could be one reason. among others. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
As a man desperate for sex, I can assure you that it isn't a cause of homosexuality in any way shape or form. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
thats why when your in prison you make sure not to drop the soap huh? I'm pretty sure thats the cause of all that <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Somehow I think there are OTHER FACTORS THAN LACK OF SEX in prison as opposed to public life. First of all, the people are more liable to being slightly off-center; they're in prison after all. Secondly, there's the mental anguish caused by boredom, repetitive labor, general physical abuse, etc. I guarantee that a lot of the homosexual activity in prison is more a result of twisted minds rather than actual homosexuality, as opposed to "normal" homosexuals.
[edit because I'm trying to avoid double posting] @Edward: he said, and I quote:
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> It[...]is seen as the '**** disease' by the heterosexual<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Note that he didn't say "all" heterosexuals, he said "the" heterosexual. One generalizes a population down to a single way of thought, the other lays out the idea that it is a heterosexual idea to assume that AIDS is the "**** disease". Note that the latter is different from your scenario.
but since you guys are so willing to accecpt it thats cool I guess... how about Polygamy? if you think a Man can love another man... why can't a man love 5 diffrent women and support them all? huh, if you guys think people should be able to do whatever they want as long as it doesn't effect others
but since you guys are so willing to accecpt it thats cool I guess... how about paligmany? if you think a Man can love another man... why can't a man love 5 diffrent women and support them all? huh, if you guys think people should be able to do whatever they want as long as it doesn't effect others <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Love isn't limited solely to two people. You can be in love with more than one person. (I've felt it before.)
But I'm not going to elaborate or participate any further in this discussion. Your logic is extremely flawed and it's pointless to debate with you.
[EDIT:] And since you're so concerned with being normal, turn your computer off. Sell everything you own, strip naked and live in a forest, hunting other animals for food and using caves as shelter from the weather. That would be what is normal for any animal, including humans.
but since you guys are so willing to accecpt it thats cool I guess... how about paligmany? if you think a Man can love another man... why can't a man love 5 diffrent women and support them all? huh, if you guys think people should be able to do whatever they want as long as it doesn't effect others <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Love isn't limited solely to two people. You can be in love with more than one person. (I've felt it before.)
But I'm not going to elaborate or participate any further in this discussion. Your logic is extremely flawed and it's pointless to debate with you. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
hehehe... I just noticed you were born in 88 same year as me. and maybe I'm just a little behind but I've never been in "love" , I've had plenty of crushes and realtionships. but I don't think you can really understand something like "love" at age 17.... but maybe thats just me. if you want to knock yourself off romeo, you totally go for it.
No, there are "normal" and non-"normal" types of people, and I'm sorry but comparing the behaviors of free citizens to people who have been locked up for God knows how long in a very tense environment is simply stupid.
<!--QuoteBegin-AvengerX+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (AvengerX)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->hehehe... I just noticed you were born in 88 same year as me. and maybe I'm just a little behind but I've never been in "love" , I've had plenty of crushes and realtionships. but I don't think you can really understand something like "love" at age 17.... but maybe thats just me. if you want to knock yourself off romeo, you totally go for it. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You know, if this were any other forum, I would make a puberty joke or something like that. As is, I'll just say that was in poor taste, and recommend that this dead-end discussion get locked, which I know Talesin wants to do anyway.
When you started this topic it was not aimed to stimulate meaningful discussion it was simply another snipe at a lifestyle you disagree with.
I really don't know what you expect the rest of us "to bring to the table" when you've pretty much smeared the whole thing with a decent layer of intolerance and close-mindedness from post #1.
According to you (apparently) when one is a homosexual one is:
i) Incapable of genuine love
ii) Incapable of practicing safe sex
iii) Automatically attracted (and a threat) to small children
iv) A drain on the economy
v) Unethical and immoral
To be frank you're simply not living in the same reality as the rest of us. I have homosexual friends and <b> none </b> of the above points apply to them.
This is a discussion forum, you know. There have been a lot of things brought up to the table, they just don't agree with your homophobia, that's all.
Also i want to add that just because someone does not approve of their behavior does not make it homophobia. Homophobia's definition implies fear. I do not have cold sweats and nightmares over two men having sex. I don't like it because it is wrong for two of the same sex to attempt copulation. However, if they do it to show their love for one another and do it in private than I am fine with it.
However, to dislike homosexuality out of fear alone is foolish, then I condone the use of "Homophobia" as a label.
Personally? I don't care what two adults do in private as long as
<ul><li>I am not involved</li><li>Children are not involved</li><li>Animals are not being abused.</li></ul>
And for those who don't quite know, Southern Baptism is akin to the christian version of Scientology. As an example, I have a friend who decided to leave the church. Her only friends had ever been a part of that church. The problem was.. she had a son. And they didn't like the idea that he would be raised in any other (godless) environment. They appointed a couple from the congregation to sue for custody, and with the massive amount of character witnesses, had the child removed from his mother (deemed mentally unfit to be a parent), and placed in a hatemongering home.
And this is not a friend-of-a-friend; she reluctantly explained what had happened after a number of months. She is also quite sane and sound of mind, in case anyone was wondering. Unfortunately the state refuses to overturn the decision, as her child has already settled into his new life. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
If that happened to me you'd have a dead congregation overnight. Don't care about being captured or killed by the law, me, my silenced SIG, and a bunch of very devout and very mutilated corpses. <!--emo&:angry:--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/mad-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='mad-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Back on "topic" (if you can call it that), Avenger's "points" were really too laughable to comment on, but I pretty much agree with what has been said by everyone else (except possibly Depot).
prison rape is about superiority, exerting power, defiling the new inmates to show your superiority. its a horrible thing done by horrible people in horrible conditions and it has nothing to do with gender roles.
/i tried writing more but it's too late at night to be coherent.
yeah well ya know... the war between good and evil has raged on for quite a bit
yeah well ya know... the war between good and evil has raged on for quite a bit <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
So homosexuality is evil now? Murder is evil, things that directly harm others are evil. Two people of the same gender doing the bumb n' grind is not evil, nor is love, be that hetrosexual or homosexual love.
yeah well ya know... the war between good and evil has raged on for quite a bit <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So homosexuality is evil now? Murder is evil, things that directly harm others are evil. Two people of the same gender doing the bumb n' grind is not evil, nor is love, be that hetrosexual or homosexual love. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
yeah, its sad to see that people are so disensatized they can't tell good from evil anymore. oh well, theres still people in the world with standerds... just not many that play NS
Still staying out of this discussion, just poking at your very flawed logic from the sidelines.
You haven't explained why it's evil. Do you have any logical reason why you think homosexuality is wrong? Is it something other than "Thuh bibul sez it iz"?
Ask yourself that. Why do you think it's wrong? Why do you think that the Bible says that it's wrong? Is that reason really logical to you? Think about it for a while, don't just bash people over the heads with scripture written by fallible humans and then translated by other fallible humans.
That's the beautiful part about the internet. The bigots don't have to be afraid of a punch in the nose when they go too far, as the people they're insulting are hundreds if not tens of thousands of miles away.
Given that there is no actual argument against homosexuality (believe all you want, as soon as your beliefs start impinging on my life, we'll have words) listed anywhere in this thread...
<span style='color:red'>*LOCKED.*</span>
Perhaps any of those against homosexuality here would start to change their minds if they knew that various members of the NS dev team (past and present) were/are not heterosexual.
There is lots of interesting discussion of the implied "homosexual=pederasty" link throughout queer studies (summarized in the very readable "<a href='http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0375501649/104-6011634-2384764' target='_blank'>The Velveteen Father</a>").