<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Just checked out the progress on the new main menu. It's been waaaay more work than we were expecting but it's coming along nicely.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> don't talk, reeeeeleeeeeeeease!
IeptBarakatThe most difficult name to speak ingame.Join Date: 2009-07-10Member: 68107Members, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Diamond, Reinforced - Shadow
<!--quoteo(post=1929720:date=Apr 25 2012, 02:50 PM:name=luns)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (luns @ Apr 25 2012, 02:50 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1929720"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->i just want them to expand on customized settings more, and add steam server browser.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That steam server browser is what we all grew up on, definitely would like the same or an enhanced version.
nadyliJoin Date: 2007-11-01Member: 62791Members, Squad Five Blue
edited April 2012
Thank you for the new FAQ. Now I know that NS2 will not be the game I hoped it could become and will remain only shadow of its predecessor unless theres some serious changes in design. I guess it's up to CS:GO to fill the void for esports shooters (not that likely either).
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I’m all for simplicity, but having the concept of energy allows multiple structures to have more of an effect (as noted in Structures above). Otherwise you would just build one Crag and could just pay pres for umbra whenever you needed it there.
Energy also allows abilities to be delayed for an amount of time - a structure can start with X energy and then slowly gain it over time. It also adds drama to the game: “The team already beaconed twice and so they won’t be able to do it a third timeâ€.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
To be fair, putting energy based abilities on p.res would not cut into the drama. Instead of running out of energy the commander could simply run out of p.res. (Same drama) At least with p.res it's easier to manage and keep an eye on, and it increases the p.res sinks and trade-offs/choices for both sides, which is greatly needed (particularly for the alien comm). There would also be no need for cooldowns, since there are so many other things the commanders can and probably will spend p.res on, they will never be able to just spam beacon/umbra/scan. (And even if they did, that would come at the cost of no medpacks/ammo/etc)
That really only leaves the 'more structures of type X should have an effect' argument in favour of keeping energy in. Simplicity and accessibility and more depth/choices on the remaining 2 resources are surely MORE important than this one remaining argument. Players will still want multiple crags for faster healing, multiple obs for radar/distress, etc so it's not even as if removing energy would change that.
Please do reconsider the whole energy thing. I know from experience sometimes it's hard to let go of things you designed, but if you were honest you would have to admit there's really no sensible argument for keeping energy in the game.
<!--quoteo(post=1929786:date=Apr 25 2012, 06:05 PM:name=zh`)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (zh` @ Apr 25 2012, 06:05 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1929786"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Thank you for the new FAQ. Now I know that NS2 will not be the game I hoped it could become and will remain only shadow of its predecessor. ...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
weird. i wasn't able to draw that conclusion from the topics discussed in that FAQ. I have a feeling you would have said that no matter what was written.
i agree with xarius that i dont see a compelling reason to keep energy separate from pres. or let me say i think simplicity trumps those reasons.
<!--quoteo(post=1929792:date=Apr 25 2012, 05:24 PM:name=Xarius)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Xarius @ Apr 25 2012, 05:24 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1929792"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->To be fair, putting energy based abilities on p.res would not cut into the drama. Instead of running out of energy the commander could simply run out of p.res. (Same drama) At least with p.res it's easier to manage and keep an eye on, and it increases the p.res sinks and trade-offs/choices for both sides, which is greatly needed (particularly for the alien comm). There would also be no need for cooldowns, since there are so many other things the commanders can and probably will spend p.res on, they will never be able to just spam beacon/umbra/scan. (And even if they did, that would come at the cost of no medpacks/ammo/etc)
That really only leaves the 'more structures of type X should have an effect' argument in favour of keeping energy in. Simplicity and accessibility and more depth/choices on the remaining 2 resources are surely MORE important than this one remaining argument. Players will still want multiple crags for faster healing, multiple obs for radar/distress, etc so it's not even as if removing energy would change that.
Please do reconsider the whole energy thing. I know from experience sometimes it's hard to let go of things you designed, but if you were honest you would have to admit there's really no sensible argument for keeping energy in the game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I party agree, My thinking is that the game does not need a 3rd resource and its much easier to manage it with only 2 resources. It could be tres + energy or tres+pres. The problem working with pres is that you can't really have anything important there, otherwise good teams will simply dual command for extra advantages.
Also adding cooldowns are not solutions in most of these situations, its more like a quick fix since you can't find another way to fix the problem. It should be used as a last resort.(This is a different story if abilities are made with cd in mind, but then there is no need for energy cost). With that in mind, CD only could work for umbra. It still keeps the effectiveness of spamming them without making them useless when they are made or to strong if they stay down to long. The reason for pres umbra suggestion is to create a pres sync for the commander since he just saves for onos nowdays. *** <!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->“You should remove XYZ because it obscures my view or removes control from the playerâ€<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> The reason why people were talking about this is because you guys were going overboard with them. There is nothing wrong with negative abilities when they are added with a clear role in mind and give more value to the gameplay than harm. However really powerful abilities such as 0 vision or stun should not be a common thing during the gameplay, it can easily make players frustrated since they die helplessly against something repeatitly(no way to outmanuver will skillful play). Also when negativity is added to abilities(such fade blink) you need to make it as little as possible. This gives full control to the player and its up to him how to use it(very rewarding). *** There are few comments in yoru design FAQ where you say you want cool things in the game. I think everyone agrees with that but it should never make the gameplay part suffer. The power node going down is a perfect example: Its awesome the first 20 times you see it but after that its just another feature that does not really add any value to the gameplay itself. That's why it needs improvements and I do hope you can find the perfect place for it because the idea behind it is really good.
<!--quoteo(post=1929816:date=Apr 25 2012, 07:05 PM:name=Grissi)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Grissi @ Apr 25 2012, 07:05 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1929816"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The problem working with pres is that you can't really have anything important there, otherwise good teams will simply dual command for extra advantages.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
a swapped out commander would be gimped for a time by inability to have a higher level weapon or life form - that would be your balance point for deciding whether to do this.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Keep in mind that we'll likely have Gorge structures expire if their parent dies and doesn't re-Gorge in a minute or so.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I really hope you don't implement this. Natural Selection 2 is already hard enough for new players without obscure features/rules that are not obvious to the player.
Every time you implement a "hidden" gameplay rule, you are adding a new barrier of entry for new players. This creates situations where people are screaming on the servers because the new player didn't know X obscure feature and failed the team.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Just added push-back when marines spawn out of IPs or Phase Gates. Take that, Kharaa-kampers.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm not understanding the logic or reasoning for this. Will marines be thrown around when they're attacking eggs too then?
rhombusLerk QueenJoin Date: 2011-06-23Member: 106055Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
<!--quoteo(post=1932387:date=May 1 2012, 05:32 PM:name=DJPenguin)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (DJPenguin @ May 1 2012, 05:32 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1932387"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm not understanding the logic or reasoning for this. Will marines be thrown around when they're attacking eggs too then?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It was really easy for Aliens to camp IP/PG because the Marine would clip into the Alien or get stuck on them while spawning/phasing. This gives Marines at least a bit of a chance.
<!--quoteo(post=1932387:date=May 1 2012, 11:32 PM:name=DJPenguin)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (DJPenguin @ May 1 2012, 11:32 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1932387"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm not understanding the logic or reasoning for this. Will marines be thrown around when they're attacking eggs too then?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm sure if egg camping becomes a notable problem, some mechanic will be added to prevent or discourage it. At the moment, however, it isn't.
<!--quoteo(post=1932397:date=May 1 2012, 04:46 PM:name=Imbalanxd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Imbalanxd @ May 1 2012, 04:46 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1932397"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm sure if egg camping becomes a notable problem, some mechanic will be added to prevent or discourage it. At the moment, however, it isn't.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> We have a mechanic that sort of does this: randomized egg spawn locations over the entire hive area and an egg HP that must be reduced to 0 in order to remove the spawn location.
<!--quoteo(post=1932394:date=May 1 2012, 06:44 PM:name=SabaHell)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SabaHell @ May 1 2012, 06:44 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1932394"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It was really easy for Aliens to camp IP/PG because the Marine would clip into the Alien or get stuck on them while spawning/phasing. This gives Marines at least a bit of a chance.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So what it sounds like is a lerk bandage... For the phase gate it think its fine. For ip's i dont agree, maybe a burst of damage to the alien as the marines tp's in.
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
<!--quoteo(post=1932387:date=May 1 2012, 01:32 PM:name=DJPenguin)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (DJPenguin @ May 1 2012, 01:32 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1932387"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm not understanding the logic or reasoning for this. Will marines be thrown around when they're attacking eggs too then?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Only if marines get dozens of Fake IPs laying around, too. :-P
i know of the issue of marines getting literally stuck inside the alien, but this sounds like it's gonna be a handicap in a fight against unguarded IP's and PG's. Guess we'll see how intense the push back is soon enough.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Just added push-back when marines spawn out of IPs or Phase Gates. Take that, Kharaa-kampers.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> How is that any different from egg-camping/killing? Not cool..
<!--quoteo(post=1932418:date=May 2 2012, 12:23 AM:name=Smasher)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Smasher @ May 2 2012, 12:23 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1932418"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->How is that any different from egg-camping/killing? Not cool..<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I've never been able to understand the course of reasoning. Are you trying to imply that the developers of Natural Selection 2 favour the marines over the aliens? What possible incentive could they have for doing this?
<!--quoteo(post=1932418:date=May 1 2012, 05:23 PM:name=Smasher)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Smasher @ May 1 2012, 05:23 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1932418"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->How is that any different from egg-camping/killing? Not cool..<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
any different... let me think:
does an egg cost 20 res? are there 1-2 eggs or 8+? does an egg indicate whether or not to spawn a player soon?
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Actively soliciting ideas for the Shade "Ink Cloud" ability which allows the aliens to "confuse and deceive". DM me please. Go.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Would be cool if marine HUD and minimap started flickering/spassing out, maybe even have false red dots appear, lose connection with commander, etc.
<!--quoteo(post=1933464:date=May 4 2012, 12:05 PM:name=Pampelmuse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Pampelmuse @ May 4 2012, 12:05 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1933464"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->any different... let me think:
does an egg cost 20 res? are there 1-2 eggs or 8+? does an egg indicate whether or not to spawn a player soon?
ah yeah. it is any different.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
+1 to this. Besides the eggs are spread out and require a Marine to extend themselves into enemy territory trying to destroy them while camping the IP just means sitting in one spot biting since the marines will have to come through every 7 seconds. Plus when this has happened to me the camper took great care to make sure they were not actually damaging the IP when they attacked so it would stay up longer and they could get more kills instead of actually worrying about the team's objective.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Actively soliciting ideas for the Shade "Ink Cloud" ability which allows the aliens to "confuse and deceive". DM me please. Go.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The ink cloud obscures visibility for short period, but once it clears it leaves behind a "fake" offensive structure(s) ....such as whip or hydra. These structure behave the same... with same animations and all, but do no damage. They also can take a few hits from a rifle (like 3-5) before "dying", but don't release any of the "blood" you would normally see. This would give you a small clue it wasn't real. Also after dying, instead of it dissolving into green infestation, it dissolves as the same ink cloud. Essentially, part of the ink cloud forms itself into a fake shell of the structure to "confuse and deceive."
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Actively soliciting ideas for the Shade "Ink Cloud" ability which allows the aliens to "confuse and deceive". DM me please. Go.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
"Ink" doesn't sound very alien to me, and by calling it that it seems like the only thing it can logically do is obscure visibility which isn't much different from spores.
Going with the Cloud idea, what if being inside the cloud causes the positions of aliens to appear displaced to marines? Say, they see the aliens where they were a second ago as opposed to where they are now, or they see them as being a few feet to the left/right of where they actually are, etc.
Comments
<a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=117547&view=findpost&p=1929368" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/in...t&p=1929368</a>
former playtester
don't talk, reeeeeleeeeeeeease!
That steam server browser is what we all grew up on, definitely would like the same or an enhanced version.
Energy also allows abilities to be delayed for an amount of time - a structure can start with X energy and then slowly gain it over time. It also adds drama to the game: “The team already beaconed twice and so they won’t be able to do it a third timeâ€.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
To be fair, putting energy based abilities on p.res would not cut into the drama. Instead of running out of energy the commander could simply run out of p.res. (Same drama) At least with p.res it's easier to manage and keep an eye on, and it increases the p.res sinks and trade-offs/choices for both sides, which is greatly needed (particularly for the alien comm). There would also be no need for cooldowns, since there are so many other things the commanders can and probably will spend p.res on, they will never be able to just spam beacon/umbra/scan. (And even if they did, that would come at the cost of no medpacks/ammo/etc)
That really only leaves the 'more structures of type X should have an effect' argument in favour of keeping energy in. Simplicity and accessibility and more depth/choices on the remaining 2 resources are surely MORE important than this one remaining argument. Players will still want multiple crags for faster healing, multiple obs for radar/distress, etc so it's not even as if removing energy would change that.
Please do reconsider the whole energy thing. I know from experience sometimes it's hard to let go of things you designed, but if you were honest you would have to admit there's really no sensible argument for keeping energy in the game.
weird. i wasn't able to draw that conclusion from the topics discussed in that FAQ. I have a feeling you would have said that no matter what was written.
i agree with xarius that i dont see a compelling reason to keep energy separate from pres. or let me say i think simplicity trumps those reasons.
That really only leaves the 'more structures of type X should have an effect' argument in favour of keeping energy in. Simplicity and accessibility and more depth/choices on the remaining 2 resources are surely MORE important than this one remaining argument. Players will still want multiple crags for faster healing, multiple obs for radar/distress, etc so it's not even as if removing energy would change that.
Please do reconsider the whole energy thing. I know from experience sometimes it's hard to let go of things you designed, but if you were honest you would have to admit there's really no sensible argument for keeping energy in the game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I party agree, My thinking is that the game does not need a 3rd resource and its much easier to manage it with only 2 resources. It could be tres + energy or tres+pres.
The problem working with pres is that you can't really have anything important there, otherwise good teams will simply dual command for extra advantages.
Also adding cooldowns are not solutions in most of these situations, its more like a quick fix since you can't find another way to fix the problem. It should be used as a last resort.(This is a different story if abilities are made with cd in mind, but then there is no need for energy cost). With that in mind, CD only could work for umbra. It still keeps the effectiveness of spamming them without making them useless when they are made or to strong if they stay down to long. The reason for pres umbra suggestion is to create a pres sync for the commander since he just saves for onos nowdays.
***
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->“You should remove XYZ because it obscures my view or removes control from the playerâ€<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The reason why people were talking about this is because you guys were going overboard with them. There is nothing wrong with negative abilities when they are added with a clear role in mind and give more value to the gameplay than harm. However really powerful abilities such as 0 vision or stun should not be a common thing during the gameplay, it can easily make players frustrated since they die helplessly against something repeatitly(no way to outmanuver will skillful play).
Also when negativity is added to abilities(such fade blink) you need to make it as little as possible. This gives full control to the player and its up to him how to use it(very rewarding).
***
There are few comments in yoru design FAQ where you say you want cool things in the game. I think everyone agrees with that but it should never make the gameplay part suffer. The power node going down is a perfect example: Its awesome the first 20 times you see it but after that its just another feature that does not really add any value to the gameplay itself. That's why it needs improvements and I do hope you can find the perfect place for it because the idea behind it is really good.
Ditto, and hopefully Gorge no-res build system (seeing as we have the "Gorge buildings dying when not Gorge" bug...)
Edit: Sweet! It's finally in, and I'm having a blast with the new Khamm!
a swapped out commander would be gimped for a time by inability to have a higher level weapon or life form - that would be your balance point for deciding whether to do this.
I really hope you don't implement this. Natural Selection 2 is already hard enough for new players without obscure features/rules that are not obvious to the player.
Every time you implement a "hidden" gameplay rule, you are adding a new barrier of entry for new players. This creates situations where people are screaming on the servers because the new player didn't know X obscure feature and failed the team.
I'm not understanding the logic or reasoning for this. Will marines be thrown around when they're attacking eggs too then?
It was really easy for Aliens to camp IP/PG because the Marine would clip into the Alien or get stuck on them while spawning/phasing. This gives Marines at least a bit of a chance.
I'm sure if egg camping becomes a notable problem, some mechanic will be added to prevent or discourage it. At the moment, however, it isn't.
We have a mechanic that sort of does this: randomized egg spawn locations over the entire hive area and an egg HP that must be reduced to 0 in order to remove the spawn location.
So what it sounds like is a lerk bandage... For the phase gate it think its fine. For ip's i dont agree, maybe a burst of damage to the alien as the marines tp's in.
Only if marines get dozens of Fake IPs laying around, too.
:-P
How is that any different from egg-camping/killing? Not cool..
I've never been able to understand the course of reasoning. Are you trying to imply that the developers of Natural Selection 2 favour the marines over the aliens? What possible incentive could they have for doing this?
@Killer Monkey
Yeah I'm really excited too! :)
any different... let me think:
does an egg cost 20 res?
are there 1-2 eggs or 8+?
does an egg indicate whether or not to spawn a player soon?
ah yeah. it is any different.
Would be cool if marine HUD and minimap started flickering/spassing out, maybe even have false red dots appear, lose connection with commander, etc.
does an egg cost 20 res?
are there 1-2 eggs or 8+?
does an egg indicate whether or not to spawn a player soon?
ah yeah. it is any different.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
+1 to this. Besides the eggs are spread out and require a Marine to extend themselves into enemy territory trying to destroy them while camping the IP just means sitting in one spot biting since the marines will have to come through every 7 seconds. Plus when this has happened to me the camper took great care to make sure they were not actually damaging the IP when they attacked so it would stay up longer and they could get more kills instead of actually worrying about the team's objective.
The ink cloud obscures visibility for short period, but once it clears it leaves behind a "fake" offensive structure(s) ....such as whip or hydra. These structure behave the same... with same animations and all, but do no damage. They also can take a few hits from a rifle (like 3-5) before "dying", but don't release any of the "blood" you would normally see. This would give you a small clue it wasn't real. Also after dying, instead of it dissolving into green infestation, it dissolves as the same ink cloud. Essentially, part of the ink cloud forms itself into a fake shell of the structure to "confuse and deceive."
"Ink" doesn't sound very alien to me, and by calling it that it seems like the only thing it can logically do is obscure visibility which isn't much different from spores.
Going with the Cloud idea, what if being inside the cloud causes the positions of aliens to appear displaced to marines? Say, they see the aliens where they were a second ago as opposed to where they are now, or they see them as being a few feet to the left/right of where they actually are, etc.