<!--quoteo(post=2065698:date=Jan 24 2013, 03:44 AM:name=Savant)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Savant @ Jan 24 2013, 03:44 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2065698"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->In any case, if sentries can't kill skulks unless they walk up to the sentry and stand still, then what's the point? The skulk is the weakest unit in the game, so if it isn't effective against the skulk it won't be effective against anything else.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Skulks are also the alien default class. And when you die with a higher life form, without the pres to get a new one. What are you supposed to do than? When sentries are obliterating skulks, the marines will build them in every room. When skulks can't even move in marine territory, how much fun do you think is left in playing them?
<!--quoteo(post=2065698:date=Jan 23 2013, 07:44 PM:name=Savant)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Savant @ Jan 23 2013, 07:44 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2065698"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Does it really matter? I know it 'matters' but does it really <i>matter</i> what is causing the aliens to win more often? Let me use a fictitious NS2 example. (Folks, please do NOT try and debate whether this fictitious example is accurate of what is happening for balance in the game)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> It matters why when you're discussing changing the dynamic of the game. Especially in big ways, like giving the marines effective turrets. The whole thread posits that turrets are a solution to the Aliens win rate. It's in the title. I simply disagree that sentry changes have anything to do with it, unless you're admitting the average Marine player can't hit the broad side of an Onos. In which case, no amount of 'sentries' is going to turn that around for you. <!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Let's say the reason aliens are winning more often is a subtle mix of marine health being a bit too low (2-bite kills before armor 1) as well as aliens being able to expand too quickly. Let's also suggest because the game is so complex, that despite the best efforts of the developers and the public, no one is able to determine the 'real' reason for the imbalance. <b>What do we do? Just twiddle our thumbs and suggest that we don't touch the game until we figure it out exactly?</b><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I reread my post to make sure, but I'm afraid you created a strawman here. I never suggested they change <i>nothing</i> about the game until they have a perfect flow chart of the problem.
What you seem to suggest is taking blind, wild swings at the problem until it's either fixed or broken. Not a lot of players like playing through wild, unpredictable balance changes and reversions. This is not a Beta, this is a product people paid money for.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->What if instead of waiting we make a change that is unrelated. Let's say that the developers put in electrified res nodes. Let's also say that in testing this change actually brings win/loss balance from 60/40 for aliens to 51/49 for aliens.
Should this change be released despite not knowing why aliens are winning more? If this fixes the problem, is that not what we want? So in the end, does it really matter if we know why the aliens are winning more if we can make changes that will balance the game?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I will concede one point, in your scenario of course you would push the patch if that was what testing data showed. However, looking at things from the standpoint of a win/loss ratio is dangerous as it can make you myoptic and ignore things that might contribute to your win/loss ratio that are not fun but result in wins. There are a few examples of them in NS2 already, I'd like to keep that number low. That being said, if your change fixed the problem it was in fact related. In this example, your blind swing connected.
If you're building sentries you're putting yourself on your back foot strategically in a game that overly rewards hyper aggressive play. If anyone is surprised by this, they are new players.
The sentries are not, and probably should not be a set-it-and-forget-it solution. If your sentries can soften up a skulk so a bad marine can finish it off or a good marine can finish off two skulks; win.
Whether or not aliens should have defenses that function the way they do is another debate.
One could argue that the closed beta test went on for too long and did not represent the impact of new players on the game. Or that the beta testers just did a bad job of pointing out flaws. Obviously, there were some major changes in the last weeks of the beta but certainly, if sentries were no good in beta either, why did you leave them in the game?
The advantage of priceworthy turrets would be locking down hives. In maps like veil, a common strategy for the aliens is fortifying doubleres first thing in the game, even if they spawn in the outer hives. The smart marine commander would ignore dres and lock down cargo hive, denying the aliens their 2nd hive. If the aliens actually had to worry about this, they would have to play more defensively in early game, giving the marines an easier time to set up rts elsewhere or letting them take doubleres like pretty much every game in ns1.
Not being able to lock down a hive is not only the fault of the sentries. The powernode is involved too: Sentries should not be able to defend a site on their own agains a coordinated asault by multiple aliens (skulks + gorges should counter sentry). Therefore you would also need a pg there. Now your sentries have to cover the powernode, the pg, the restower and leave no blind spot around the sentry battery. With 3 sentries with fixed sight cone this is pretty much impossible.
<!--quoteo(post=2065887:date=Jan 24 2013, 07:55 AM:name=bERt0r)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (bERt0r @ Jan 24 2013, 07:55 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2065887"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->One could argue that the closed beta test went on for too long and did not represent the impact of new players on the game. Or that the beta testers just did a bad job of pointing out flaws. Obviously, there were some major changes in the last weeks of the beta but certainly, if sentries were no good in beta either, why did you leave them in the game?
The advantage of priceworthy turrets would be locking down hives. In maps like veil, a common strategy for the aliens is fortifying doubleres first thing in the game, even if they spawn in the outer hives. The smart marine commander would ignore dres and lock down cargo hive, denying the aliens their 2nd hive. If the aliens actually had to worry about this, they would have to play more defensively in early game, giving the marines an easier time to set up rts elsewhere or letting them take doubleres like pretty much every game in ns1.
Not being able to lock down a hive is not only the fault of the sentries. The powernode is involved too: Sentries should not be able to defend a site on their own agains a coordinated asault by multiple aliens (skulks + gorges should counter sentry). Therefore you would also need a pg there. Now your sentries have to cover the powernode, the pg, the restower and leave no blind spot around the sentry battery. With 3 sentries with fixed sight cone this is pretty much impossible.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Furthermore, in cargo hive it's actually impossible, even if you discount the resnode (which is of course miles away from the power). That hive is so easy to take with jetpacks, and so difficult to hold as marines as well: it does make veil more interesting for it, I think, because it brings nanogrid more to the fore. The danger there is that new players see teams almost always battling over nanogrid (because cargo is so difficult to hold!), and wrongly assume that holding the resnodes is more important than denying the resnodes/tech point.
It comes down to those of us who appreciate this important fact to educate the others: as marines, you have to deny as much alien res as possible as early as possible. 3 hive aliens with 1 harvester are immeasurably weaker than 2 hive aliens with 5 harvesters.
<!--quoteo(post=2065891:date=Jan 24 2013, 07:15 AM:name=Roobubba)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Roobubba @ Jan 24 2013, 07:15 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2065891"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It comes down to those of us who appreciate this important fact to educate the others: as marines, you have to deny as much alien res as possible as early as possible. 3 hive aliens with 1 harvester are immeasurably weaker than 2 hive aliens with 5 harvesters.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
i don't know, 3 hive on veil means one comm chair... jetpacks are pretty op.
<!--quoteo(post=2065684:date=Jan 23 2013, 08:56 PM:name=ScardyBob)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ScardyBob @ Jan 23 2013, 08:56 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2065684"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The skill gap would still exist, but be shifted more onto the comm. Right now, there is nothing a good comm can do to overcome a team that can't shoot, so there is less incentive to analyze strategy than there is to find and/or train good shooters. Hard counters make comm decisions more important if it can be used to overcome a FPS skill-deficient team.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I agree but I don't see that as a positive. In pub games it is rare that you have a strong enough comm to carry that much responsibility. More often it's just a guy who knows the build orders and if you're lucky is good at multitasking, or equally often there's no one that's good at it and someone just hops in so the game can proceed.
In short I think it's far more important that the field players feel empowered than that the comm feels empowered, given the choice between the two. NS2 is more shooter than RTS, and the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few.
<!--quoteo(post=2065851:date=Jan 24 2013, 07:35 AM:name=_Necro_)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (_Necro_ @ Jan 24 2013, 07:35 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2065851"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Skulks are also the alien default class. And when you die with a higher life form, without the pres to get a new one. What are you supposed to do than? When sentries are obliterating skulks, the marines will build them in every room. When skulks can't even move in marine territory, how much fun do you think is left in playing them?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->It's a catch-22 though. If they don't 'hurt' skulks, why have them in game when the skulk is the weakest unit in the game?
I don't think sentries should be 1-shotting skulks the moment they are in range. However, sentries do have range limits, as well as the limit of 3 per room. The marines can't 'lock down' the map with sentries.
My issue isn't that sentries don't kill skulks fast enough. Not at all. I don't want DAMAGE buffed, I want them to not be so easy to kill. They should be able to deny skulks access to an area, but not permanently. Right now it is WAY too easy to take out a sentry nest. Frankly I'd accept a slower rate of fire on the sentry if they were harder to kill. I want the sentry to make the alien team need to work at taking it down if they want what it is protecting. It shouldn't be a 'gimme' like it is now.
<!--quoteo(post=2065858:date=Jan 24 2013, 08:04 AM:name=SpaceJew)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SpaceJew @ Jan 24 2013, 08:04 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2065858"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It matters why when you're discussing changing the dynamic of the game. Especially in big ways, like giving the marines effective turrets. The whole thread posits that turrets are a solution to the Aliens win rate. It's in the title. I simply disagree that sentry changes have anything to do with it<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->As I have said repeatedly, I agree. Sentries are not the answer to this.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->What you seem to suggest is taking blind, wild swings at the problem until it's either fixed or broken. Not a lot of players like playing through wild, unpredictable balance changes and reversions.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->And not a lot of players like playing a game where one team wins over 60% of the time.
I'm not suggesting "blind, wild swings" at all, and you know that's a gross exaggeration. My point is that I would rather we do SOMETHING than do NOTHING. It doesn't have to be a big change at all, just SOMETHING to move us in the right direction. Yeah this is not a beta, which is why there is NO EXCUSE for balance to be so far off at this stage of the game. We're almost 3 months into the game and we still have one team winning nearly 2/3rds of the games. Not a lot of players like playing a game like that.
I'm telling you guys, let the marines buy one sentry that they can remote control. It's like a soft teleport, and it's hardcapped by how many people are in the server.
How 'bout making it mobile, like a sentry stuck on a much weaker version of the arc chassis. Stat/cost/build wise is it's exactly the same, but it can move around. And they can only travel in a room that has that has a RC tower (New coat of paint of the battery)
<!--quoteo(post=2066236:date=Jan 25 2013, 04:07 AM:name=AuroN2)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (AuroN2 @ Jan 25 2013, 04:07 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2066236"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->i still think turn them into a marine deployable.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->While I like the idea in principle, in practice I don't think it would improve things at all.
If the sentry still had the small FOV, then you wouldn't be able to put it in a place where it didn't have a blind spot. Even in a corner you can just sit on top of it since it can't shoot up. It would need to have 360 degree coverage. However balance could be maintained by giving it finite ammo limits, which require the person who dropped it to pick it up and refill ammo at an armoury and recharge it's internal power mechanism.
The bottom line is that it needs to be able to discourage an alien attack without it being easily destroyed. (otherwise it will end up like mines, too expensive to use more than once or twice.) It would be really hard to balance something like this.
ScardyBobScardyBobJoin Date: 2009-11-25Member: 69528Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
I like Runteh's solution to a marine-deployable sentry: <center><object width="450" height="356"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/tri7q0HWUWE"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/tri7q0HWUWE" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="450" height="356"></embed></object></center>
Before the last patch, I thought the game was ideal, then people cried and they changed things so now it's worse. Before the patch it was 50/50 after the patch it's now more like 40/60 (human aliens). Me and a group of maybe 2 -4 people could switch teams and win both ways, now a team of cruddy aliens can win with a good commander. They made aliens more powerful just because people suck at them? Only thing I could think of.
The game became more laggy after the patch as well, either that or the servers got worse. The game gets ruined because people complain and cry I've seen it happen to too many good games.
Now implementing a feature that teaches newer players how to be a good commander would be nice, since the first time you jump into a chair and you go stupid cause you don't know what half the stuff does.
<!--quoteo(post=2066913:date=Jan 26 2013, 04:06 AM:name=AvastIdiocracy)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (AvastIdiocracy @ Jan 26 2013, 04:06 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2066913"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Before the last patch, I thought the game was ideal, then people cried and they changed things so now it's worse. Before the patch it was 50/50 after the patch it's now more like 40/60 (human aliens)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Too bad that's not true. The developers have been recording stats, and the only time it was 49/51 (marines/aliens) was in the week of release. As time went on WITHOUT ANY PATCHES AT ALL, that ratio changed to 40/60 just because people learned alien gameplay.
I've been watching the stats, and none of the patches has had any meaningful impact on win/loss balance so far.
When I heard 'marine deployable sentry' I honestly thought this: <center><object width="450" height="356"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/Wmip6rWHu-U"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/Wmip6rWHu-U" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="450" height="356"></embed></object></center> So the LMG's marines drop when buying another weapon can still be useful. (Deploys sentry, then buys SG, GL etc...) Perhaps the commander can research sentry mode, and there is a limit on how many can be deployed in a room, (like 1 per marine, 3-4 per room) And for balance reasons it can only be placed on the floor. And a rather fitting coincidence since marine weps fold up too =)
<b>EDIT:</b> Lets compare the similarities -Folds up -50 round mag -<i>Similar</i> ROF -Lmg -Good damge (if you can aim) -Fairly accurate
Sentry idea similarities -Deployable by user -Finite ammo -Can be picked up/refilled/reused -Can be destroyed -One can only be deployed at a time
<!--quoteo(post=2066902:date=Jan 26 2013, 03:19 AM:name=ScardyBob)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ScardyBob @ Jan 26 2013, 03:19 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2066902"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I like Runteh's solution to a marine-deployable sentry: <center><object width="450" height="356"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/tri7q0HWUWE"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/tri7q0HWUWE" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="450" height="356"></embed></object></center><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->A couple intesting concepts...
The 'large' turret would be nice, but since it's easily flanked, what's the point? Say I'm a skulk and I get splatted by this cannon since I didn't know it was deployed. As soon as I spawn I'm gonna take the back way and take it out. This is a repeating problem with the sentries as they stand now, what protects the SENTRIES? Unlike hydras and whips (which enjoy a full 360° coverage), the sentries just no such coverage. Why? What ends up happening is that you need to have sentries covering sentries. What's the point? What's worse is that they all get taken out in 5 seconds with a brief spam of bile bomb. Or the battery gets sniped by a lerk. Or a blind spot is targeted. This 'cannon' would be just as susceptible to bile spam as anything else, and since it's basically one big blind spot, it's effectiveness is very limited. This would have a very narrow usage. Extremely situational.
As for the second 'personal' sentry, I like the idea of it floating. (hovering! without flapping! all we need is a scorpion decal and we're good to go!) But the 'one bite and your dead' health of it makes it useless. I'd rather buy mines, since all it would take is a leap to demolish this. Now if this thing was buffed up, I'd be more interested. If I'm going to be spending 10-15 res on something that is not a handheld weapon, then I need to know that it will be worth the risk of losing it to a premature death, and it should be able to take a few skulks with it before it is killed. Otherwise, why am I paying res for something that won't kill anything? I like the design and idea though! However the specs make it a 'pass' for me.
<b>1a) </b>Sentries are no longer placed by the Commander. <b>1b)</b> Sentries are now deployed by Marines (this takes x seconds). <b>2) </b>Sentries are built from the Robotics Factory (a Sentry leaves the factory in a box, like a box dropping of a conveyer belt). <b>3a) </b>Sentry boxes are picked up by Marines. <b>3b) </b>One Marine can carry one Sentry box (the Marine carries it on his back). <b>4a) </b>A Marine with a Sentry box can deploy that Sentry (much the same way Gorges builds Hydras, but only on floors). <b>4b) </b>Other Marines can assist in the deployment of a Sentry (but the Sentry still "belongs" to the Marine who carried it on his back). <b>5) </b>A Marine can undeploy the Sentry he deployed (see 3a). <b>6) </b>The Commander can undeploy any Sentry (leaving a box on the ground).
<b>Undecided:</b> <b>7a) </b>Sentries require a Power Node and/or a Sentry Battery. <b>7b) </b>If Sentries require a Power Node, only allow y Sentries per Power Node. <b>8) </b>The Marine that deployed the Sentry gets the kills and the Commander gets assists (or the other way around). <b>9) </b>Marines with Jetpacks can't carry Sentry boxes. <b>10) </b>Buff Sentries (a lot!).
<b>Extra:</b> <b>11a) </b>MAC's can also pick up Sentry boxes. <b>11b) </b>One MAC can also carry one Sentry box (the MAC carries it with its robotic arms, preventing it from welding and constructing). <b>12a) </b>MAC's can also deploy Sentries (this takes x seconds). <b>12b) </b>MAC's can also assist in the deployment of Sentries.
x = The same as the current build time. y = This number should be as low as possible without making Sentries useless due to flanking (three is perhaps a good number).
If sentries were made useful, their numbers being limited by how many tech points the marines hold could be a good way to stop them from being spammed.
Hold 1 tech point, you can build 2 sets of turrets, then 1 more with each tech point after that.
If we're gonna keep the power node mechanic (which I'm not a fan of) then let's make it simple. Allow sentries to be placed anywhere, max 3 to a power node. Give them a 180° FOV and the ability to shoot above them - but only in their forward FOV. Done. A single sentry is weak, and the FOV allows it to be placed against walls, but not in the open unless placed in a group. However, unlinking the sentries will give marines greater flexibility in placement. However, solo sentries won't be nearly as effective as they were when they were in a group of three. Sentries like this would be more useful, but not overpowered. No battery, which means taking out the power takes out the sentries. (Since I've never seen a situation where a sentry was helpful in a room that just lost power.) Just simplify sentries - so they are like hydras in that you drop them and forget them.
AurOn2COOKIES! FREEDOM, AND BISCUITS!AustraliaJoin Date: 2012-01-13Member: 140224Members, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Forum staff
<!--quoteo(post=2066784:date=Jan 26 2013, 12:01 PM:name=Savant)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Savant @ Jan 26 2013, 12:01 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2066784"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->While I like the idea in principle, in practice I don't think it would improve things at all.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Ah now thats where your wrong, if you make them have ammo, it will much improve sentries, you will need to either keep them checked up on and reloaded to maximise their effectiveness, or, bring it with you everywhere. this will add a level of tediousness to the automation that is the sentry. could also add a new dynamic of strategy for both teams. it will also make sentries dependant on ammo drops from a commander or an armory, which means sentries left well alone will go dry eventually. But anyway, the sentry battery function is broken and needs to be removed one way or another, bring back power packs! I don't much care if you take the personal sentry or the commander sentry, but do please take away the sentry battery?
sentries are ok where they are, impact-wise, i like their role, delaying tactic in the same vein as mines. i mean, i don't expect mines to kill things, i'm pleasantly surprised when they do, it's just that i use them to dissuade skulks from being where they shouldn't be.
the only change I would think necessary, might be reducing the cost to comm.
do something like, battery cost stays the same, sentry cost to comm reduced to 3 t-res. and each marine can buy a pack of 3 sentries for 15 pres.
also, have the actual sentries autobuild/ get thrown down completed. the time to build is frankly ridiculously negligible, what is it, like 3 seconds for a single marine?
the point being, i don't want something that would deny skulk harass, but that seems like a lot of t-res investment. i'd be a lot happier if it were an investment of 5 t-res and 15 p-res.
What they shuold implement is MACs with sentry turrets attachted to the bottom, those macs can later be upgraded to have arc cannons on top of them. They also should have built in passive scanner. And we should not have robotics factory for t, instead, let them come out of CC. Also, cost might be reduced to 2, and MAC count should not be tied to CC count. Problem solved.
I'd say give sentries 360° FOV, nerf their damage, tie them to powernodes, increase the limit to 5-6 per room and make sure they do light dmg so the onos doesnt start crying. If you were able to spread out sentries a bit, bileboms would not be so terrible against them, although still effective. A skulk with cara should be able to 1on1 a sentry, if he can get into a blindspot, he may take out a sentry farm by himself. In short, give us NS1 turrets back, they were superior in every aspect including fun for aliens to take them down.
I really don't get all the talk of "fighting turrets isn't fun" which to be honest is very one sided. Whips count as a type of turret and yet nobody complains about them.
The only reason turrets became such and issue is when they were powerful and you could build an unlimited amount leading to very long stalemates which left a very bitter taste in everyone mouth. The original power of turrets was ok and the 3 limit is good. But i do miss the way batteries were powerpacks for ninjaing
Personally I have ALWAYS LOVED the idea of ammo capacity for turrets and the packs being ammo replenishers so constant attack of turrets would deplete them meaning they would be able to have a decent amount of power to deter attacks but if a propper push was applied they would only have a limited amount of time to be useful.
Comments
Skulks are also the alien default class. And when you die with a higher life form, without the pres to get a new one. What are you supposed to do than? When sentries are obliterating skulks, the marines will build them in every room. When skulks can't even move in marine territory, how much fun do you think is left in playing them?
It matters why when you're discussing changing the dynamic of the game. Especially in big ways, like giving the marines effective turrets. The whole thread posits that turrets are a solution to the Aliens win rate. It's in the title. I simply disagree that sentry changes have anything to do with it, unless you're admitting the average Marine player can't hit the broad side of an Onos. In which case, no amount of 'sentries' is going to turn that around for you.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Let's say the reason aliens are winning more often is a subtle mix of marine health being a bit too low (2-bite kills before armor 1) as well as aliens being able to expand too quickly. Let's also suggest because the game is so complex, that despite the best efforts of the developers and the public, no one is able to determine the 'real' reason for the imbalance. <b>What do we do? Just twiddle our thumbs and suggest that we don't touch the game until we figure it out exactly?</b><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I reread my post to make sure, but I'm afraid you created a strawman here. I never suggested they change <i>nothing</i> about the game until they have a perfect flow chart of the problem.
What you seem to suggest is taking blind, wild swings at the problem until it's either fixed or broken. Not a lot of players like playing through wild, unpredictable balance changes and reversions. This is not a Beta, this is a product people paid money for.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->What if instead of waiting we make a change that is unrelated. Let's say that the developers put in electrified res nodes. Let's also say that in testing this change actually brings win/loss balance from 60/40 for aliens to 51/49 for aliens.
Should this change be released despite not knowing why aliens are winning more? If this fixes the problem, is that not what we want? So in the end, does it really matter if we know why the aliens are winning more if we can make changes that will balance the game?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I will concede one point, in your scenario of course you would push the patch if that was what testing data showed. However, looking at things from the standpoint of a win/loss ratio is dangerous as it can make you myoptic and ignore things that might contribute to your win/loss ratio that are not fun but result in wins. There are a few examples of them in NS2 already, I'd like to keep that number low. That being said, if your change fixed the problem it was in fact related. In this example, your blind swing connected.
If you're building sentries you're putting yourself on your back foot strategically in a game that overly rewards hyper aggressive play. If anyone is surprised by this, they are new players.
Whether or not aliens should have defenses that function the way they do is another debate.
The advantage of priceworthy turrets would be locking down hives. In maps like veil, a common strategy for the aliens is fortifying doubleres first thing in the game, even if they spawn in the outer hives. The smart marine commander would ignore dres and lock down cargo hive, denying the aliens their 2nd hive. If the aliens actually had to worry about this, they would have to play more defensively in early game, giving the marines an easier time to set up rts elsewhere or letting them take doubleres like pretty much every game in ns1.
Not being able to lock down a hive is not only the fault of the sentries. The powernode is involved too: Sentries should not be able to defend a site on their own agains a coordinated asault by multiple aliens (skulks + gorges should counter sentry). Therefore you would also need a pg there. Now your sentries have to cover the powernode, the pg, the restower and leave no blind spot around the sentry battery. With 3 sentries with fixed sight cone this is pretty much impossible.
The advantage of priceworthy turrets would be locking down hives. In maps like veil, a common strategy for the aliens is fortifying doubleres first thing in the game, even if they spawn in the outer hives. The smart marine commander would ignore dres and lock down cargo hive, denying the aliens their 2nd hive. If the aliens actually had to worry about this, they would have to play more defensively in early game, giving the marines an easier time to set up rts elsewhere or letting them take doubleres like pretty much every game in ns1.
Not being able to lock down a hive is not only the fault of the sentries. The powernode is involved too: Sentries should not be able to defend a site on their own agains a coordinated asault by multiple aliens (skulks + gorges should counter sentry). Therefore you would also need a pg there. Now your sentries have to cover the powernode, the pg, the restower and leave no blind spot around the sentry battery. With 3 sentries with fixed sight cone this is pretty much impossible.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Furthermore, in cargo hive it's actually impossible, even if you discount the resnode (which is of course miles away from the power). That hive is so easy to take with jetpacks, and so difficult to hold as marines as well: it does make veil more interesting for it, I think, because it brings nanogrid more to the fore. The danger there is that new players see teams almost always battling over nanogrid (because cargo is so difficult to hold!), and wrongly assume that holding the resnodes is more important than denying the resnodes/tech point.
It comes down to those of us who appreciate this important fact to educate the others: as marines, you have to deny as much alien res as possible as early as possible. 3 hive aliens with 1 harvester are immeasurably weaker than 2 hive aliens with 5 harvesters.
i don't know, 3 hive on veil means one comm chair... jetpacks are pretty op.
I agree but I don't see that as a positive. In pub games it is rare that you have a strong enough comm to carry that much responsibility. More often it's just a guy who knows the build orders and if you're lucky is good at multitasking, or equally often there's no one that's good at it and someone just hops in so the game can proceed.
In short I think it's far more important that the field players feel empowered than that the comm feels empowered, given the choice between the two. NS2 is more shooter than RTS, and the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few.
I don't think sentries should be 1-shotting skulks the moment they are in range. However, sentries do have range limits, as well as the limit of 3 per room. The marines can't 'lock down' the map with sentries.
My issue isn't that sentries don't kill skulks fast enough. Not at all. I don't want DAMAGE buffed, I want them to not be so easy to kill. They should be able to deny skulks access to an area, but not permanently. Right now it is WAY too easy to take out a sentry nest. Frankly I'd accept a slower rate of fire on the sentry if they were harder to kill. I want the sentry to make the alien team need to work at taking it down if they want what it is protecting. It shouldn't be a 'gimme' like it is now.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->What you seem to suggest is taking blind, wild swings at the problem until it's either fixed or broken. Not a lot of players like playing through wild, unpredictable balance changes and reversions.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->And not a lot of players like playing a game where one team wins over 60% of the time.
I'm not suggesting "blind, wild swings" at all, and you know that's a gross exaggeration. My point is that I would rather we do SOMETHING than do NOTHING. It doesn't have to be a big change at all, just SOMETHING to move us in the right direction. Yeah this is not a beta, which is why there is NO EXCUSE for balance to be so far off at this stage of the game. We're almost 3 months into the game and we still have one team winning nearly 2/3rds of the games. Not a lot of players like playing a game like that.
Stat/cost/build wise is it's exactly the same, but it can move around.
And they can only travel in a room that has that has a RC tower (New coat of paint of the battery)
remove sentry battery deployable
costs 5 res to add to res node
supports 2 turrets
max 4 per room
max 2 per rt
If the sentry still had the small FOV, then you wouldn't be able to put it in a place where it didn't have a blind spot. Even in a corner you can just sit on top of it since it can't shoot up. It would need to have 360 degree coverage. However balance could be maintained by giving it finite ammo limits, which require the person who dropped it to pick it up and refill ammo at an armoury and recharge it's internal power mechanism.
The bottom line is that it needs to be able to discourage an alien attack without it being easily destroyed. (otherwise it will end up like mines, too expensive to use more than once or twice.) It would be really hard to balance something like this.
<center><object width="450" height="356"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/tri7q0HWUWE"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/tri7q0HWUWE" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="450" height="356"></embed></object></center>
They made aliens more powerful just because people suck at them? Only thing I could think of.
The game became more laggy after the patch as well, either that or the servers got worse. The game gets ruined because people complain and cry I've seen it happen to too many good games.
Now implementing a feature that teaches newer players how to be a good commander would be nice, since the first time you jump into a chair and you go stupid cause you don't know what half the stuff does.
I've been watching the stats, and none of the patches has had any meaningful impact on win/loss balance so far.
<center><object width="450" height="356"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/tri7q0HWUWE"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/tri7q0HWUWE" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="450" height="356"></embed></object></center><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It sure has some points... but the strong one corner turret.. i dont know.. it would have to be very very expensive to warrent that firepower.
<center><object width="450" height="356"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/Wmip6rWHu-U"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/Wmip6rWHu-U" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="450" height="356"></embed></object></center>
So the LMG's marines drop when buying another weapon can still be useful. (Deploys sentry, then buys SG, GL etc...)
Perhaps the commander can research sentry mode, and there is a limit on how many can be deployed in a room, (like 1 per marine, 3-4 per room)
And for balance reasons it can only be placed on the floor. And a rather fitting coincidence since marine weps fold up too =)
<b>EDIT:</b> Lets compare the similarities
-Folds up
-50 round mag
-<i>Similar</i> ROF
-Lmg
-Good damge (if you can aim)
-Fairly accurate
Sentry idea similarities
-Deployable by user
-Finite ammo
-Can be picked up/refilled/reused
-Can be destroyed
-One can only be deployed at a time
<center><object width="450" height="356"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/tri7q0HWUWE"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/tri7q0HWUWE" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="450" height="356"></embed></object></center><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->A couple intesting concepts...
The 'large' turret would be nice, but since it's easily flanked, what's the point? Say I'm a skulk and I get splatted by this cannon since I didn't know it was deployed. As soon as I spawn I'm gonna take the back way and take it out. This is a repeating problem with the sentries as they stand now, what protects the SENTRIES? Unlike hydras and whips (which enjoy a full 360° coverage), the sentries just no such coverage. Why? What ends up happening is that you need to have sentries covering sentries. What's the point? What's worse is that they all get taken out in 5 seconds with a brief spam of bile bomb. Or the battery gets sniped by a lerk. Or a blind spot is targeted. This 'cannon' would be just as susceptible to bile spam as anything else, and since it's basically one big blind spot, it's effectiveness is very limited. This would have a very narrow usage. Extremely situational.
As for the second 'personal' sentry, I like the idea of it floating. (hovering! without flapping! all we need is a scorpion decal and we're good to go!) But the 'one bite and your dead' health of it makes it useless. I'd rather buy mines, since all it would take is a leap to demolish this. Now if this thing was buffed up, I'd be more interested. If I'm going to be spending 10-15 res on something that is not a handheld weapon, then I need to know that it will be worth the risk of losing it to a premature death, and it should be able to take a few skulks with it before it is killed. Otherwise, why am I paying res for something that won't kill anything? I like the design and idea though! However the specs make it a 'pass' for me.
<b>1b)</b> Sentries are now deployed by Marines (this takes x seconds).
<b>2) </b>Sentries are built from the Robotics Factory (a Sentry leaves the factory in a box, like a box dropping of a conveyer belt).
<b>3a) </b>Sentry boxes are picked up by Marines.
<b>3b) </b>One Marine can carry one Sentry box (the Marine carries it on his back).
<b>4a) </b>A Marine with a Sentry box can deploy that Sentry (much the same way Gorges builds Hydras, but only on floors).
<b>4b) </b>Other Marines can assist in the deployment of a Sentry (but the Sentry still "belongs" to the Marine who carried it on his back).
<b>5) </b>A Marine can undeploy the Sentry he deployed (see 3a).
<b>6) </b>The Commander can undeploy any Sentry (leaving a box on the ground).
<b>Undecided:</b>
<b>7a) </b>Sentries require a Power Node and/or a Sentry Battery.
<b>7b) </b>If Sentries require a Power Node, only allow y Sentries per Power Node.
<b>8) </b>The Marine that deployed the Sentry gets the kills and the Commander gets assists (or the other way around).
<b>9) </b>Marines with Jetpacks can't carry Sentry boxes.
<b>10) </b>Buff Sentries (a lot!).
<b>Extra:</b>
<b>11a) </b>MAC's can also pick up Sentry boxes.
<b>11b) </b>One MAC can also carry one Sentry box (the MAC carries it with its robotic arms, preventing it from welding and constructing).
<b>12a) </b>MAC's can also deploy Sentries (this takes x seconds).
<b>12b) </b>MAC's can also assist in the deployment of Sentries.
x = The same as the current build time.
y = This number should be as low as possible without making Sentries useless due to flanking (three is perhaps a good number).
Hold 1 tech point, you can build 2 sets of turrets, then 1 more with each tech point after that.
If we're gonna keep the power node mechanic (which I'm not a fan of) then let's make it simple. Allow sentries to be placed anywhere, max 3 to a power node. Give them a 180° FOV and the ability to shoot above them - but only in their forward FOV. Done. A single sentry is weak, and the FOV allows it to be placed against walls, but not in the open unless placed in a group. However, unlinking the sentries will give marines greater flexibility in placement. However, solo sentries won't be nearly as effective as they were when they were in a group of three. Sentries like this would be more useful, but not overpowered. No battery, which means taking out the power takes out the sentries. (Since I've never seen a situation where a sentry was helpful in a room that just lost power.) Just simplify sentries - so they are like hydras in that you drop them and forget them.
Ah now thats where your wrong, if you make them have ammo, it will much improve sentries, you will need to either keep them checked up on and reloaded to maximise their effectiveness, or, bring it with you everywhere. this will add a level of tediousness to the automation that is the sentry. could also add a new dynamic of strategy for both teams. it will also make sentries dependant on ammo drops from a commander or an armory, which means sentries left well alone will go dry eventually.
But anyway, the sentry battery function is broken and needs to be removed one way or another, bring back power packs! I don't much care if you take the personal sentry or the commander sentry, but do please take away the sentry battery?
the only change I would think necessary, might be reducing the cost to comm.
do something like, battery cost stays the same, sentry cost to comm reduced to 3 t-res. and each marine can buy a pack of 3 sentries for 15 pres.
also, have the actual sentries autobuild/ get thrown down completed. the time to build is frankly ridiculously negligible, what is it, like 3 seconds for a single marine?
the point being, i don't want something that would deny skulk harass, but that seems like a lot of t-res investment. i'd be a lot happier if it were an investment of 5 t-res and 15 p-res.
Problem solved.
In short, give us NS1 turrets back, they were superior in every aspect including fun for aliens to take them down.
The only reason turrets became such and issue is when they were powerful and you could build an unlimited amount leading to very long stalemates which left a very bitter taste in everyone mouth. The original power of turrets was ok and the 3 limit is good. But i do miss the way batteries were powerpacks for ninjaing
Personally I have ALWAYS LOVED the idea of ammo capacity for turrets and the packs being ammo replenishers so constant attack of turrets would deplete them meaning they would be able to have a decent amount of power to deter attacks but if a propper push was applied they would only have a limited amount of time to be useful.