Pretty much everything dragon has said in this thread is spot on. Beyond that, there's two sides to the game, and the changes you're making in this mod would leave aliens in an awful state that no one would want to play.
Simply put, dealing with super mines and turrets wouldn't be fun on any level - let alone being balanced. Do you seriously think people would want to play alien against that?
Bad marines lose games by being inattentive and having bad aim. But they arent feeling actively punished when they lose. Aliens playing against your proposed mechanics would actively feel like crap, because bashing your head against strong static d is one of the least fun things imaginable.
Pretty much everything dragon has said in this thread is spot on. Beyond that, there's two sides to the game, and the changes you're making in this mod would leave aliens in an awful state that no one would want to play.
Simply put, dealing with super mines and turrets wouldn't be fun on any level - let alone being balanced. Do you seriously think people would want to play alien against that?
Bad marines lose games by being inattentive and having bad aim. But they arent feeling actively punished when they lose. Aliens playing against your proposed mechanics would actively feel like crap, because bashing your head against strong static d is one of the least fun things imaginable.
That is irrelevant to my mod like 2 days now. Sooo much irrelevant.
*********************************************
Our very own server: AltBalance Valley
searchable by Game: balance
*********************************************
Full feature list: -Aliens-
1. No glancing bites for skulks and lerks.
2. Bilebomb: -33% damage. Gorge is reworked to be less dependent on carapace. 15 clogs.
3. Hallucinations got 3 times more HP.
4. Adjusted costs of Chambers and Evolutions to 10 res.
5. Carapace is slightly nerfed. 700 armor for Onos.
6. Crags only heal up to 65% of your constitution.
7. All Abilities are available at second Hive, except for Stomp. Research time is increased. Costs adjusted.
8. Khammander can't drop Onos eggs.
-Marines-
1. Sentries depend on electricity and have 360 degree awareness. 2 per room.
2. Batteries work as small reserve power sources for structures. 1 per room, small radius. Don't need Robotics to use.
3. Mines trigger faster.
4. Slightly higher jetpack acceleration.
5. ARCs HP reduced to 1500.
6. Nanoshield: 35% dmg reduction and 60 sec cooldown.
7. Exos crush cysts.
8. Marine tech tree cost slightly reduced to give more freedom in starting build orders.
Summary. In issue-solution form.
1. Games depend a lot on early game Skulk vs Marine fights. Forced skulks to aim more precisely like marines do. Both sides require skill now.
2. It's hard for marines to secure even their own RT's, not to mention - attacking aliens.
Altered sentries. Also, they can help against Fades, while marines don't have Jets.
3. Horrible weak point in the whole marine infrastructure - power nodes. Nerfed bilebomb, so gorges need some cooperation (ARCs got nerfed HP to reflect bilebomb nerf). Added minor additional power supply.
4. Nerfed Nanoshield as an overpowered feature.
5. Nerfed crags to prevent craging Hives, turtling and incresing role of healing Gorges and Regeneration.
6. The rest of changes are made to make gameplay more variable, give more freedom and reintroduce less used features like Hallucinations and Xenocide.
Goals and result: more balanced, more diversified gameplay. More options, less frustration. More action, less turtrling. Let's discuss and play it.
I would like to try this Mod. To be honest i kind of like the idea of most of the changes. My only reservation is the 360 degree cone of sentries.
Would it be out of the question to reduce the degree to 180 degrees? This way you could drop two back to back and have 360 or spread them out to cover different entrances. Keep in mind I haven't played the mod yet so i don't know how much an impact that 360 has, could be I'm spitting in the wind.
I would like to try this Mod. To be honest i kind of like the idea of most of the changes. My only reservation is the 360 degree cone of sentries.
Would it be out of the question to reduce the degree to 180 degrees? This way you could drop two back to back and have 360 or spread them out to cover different entrances. Keep in mind I haven't played the mod yet so i don't know how much an impact that 360 has, could be I'm spitting in the wind.
I might nerf them, if they will seem inbalanced. But I'm pretty sure they are very good now. I'm glad you're interested!
Not SureJoin Date: 2013-01-06Member: 177758Members
No offense, but it seems like you're "fixing" all the things that new/bad players have trouble with and experienced/good players have learned to overcome.
No offense, but it seems like you're "fixing" all the things that new/bad players have trouble with and experienced/good players have learned to overcome.
You're talking too general. There are several directions in these changes. Point out what bothers you the most.
I'm sure balance is a lot better now. Now marines can advance in game strategically and aliens got a lot new options.
I understand the problem of alien comm/economy model. And those changes are also pointed to adress these issues. Also, I don't want to cut off fun and action. So this is a completed Phase 1 of this mod, which brings balance the soft way.
That is irrelevant to my mod like 2 days now. Sooo much irrelevant.
Sentries are still 360. Mines still trigger faster. Bile bomb drastically nerfed. Seems like my criticism is still 100% accurate.
Yet it brings balance. Sentries deal basic 5 damage. Mines trigger just as much faster to explode when alien is on it, not a meter away.
Bilebomb is a gamebraker at current state in addition to other points. You're being picky and don't want to see the effect of these changes all together.
That is irrelevant to my mod like 2 days now. Sooo much irrelevant.
Sentries are still 360. Mines still trigger faster. Bile bomb drastically nerfed. Seems like my criticism is still 100% accurate.
Yet it brings balance. Sentries deal basic 5 damage. Mines trigger just as much faster to explode when alien is on it, not a meter away.
Bilebomb is a gamebraker at current state in addition to other points. You're being picky and don't want to see the effect of these changes all together.
Sentries in their current (real game) implementation are balanced solely because of their nest/sight limitation requirement. Those requirements stop them from turning every room into an obnoxious sentry shitshow that's horribly unfun for the aliens to deal with. Mines are already overpowered in the current iteration, and buffing them is beyond over the top. Seriously, if mines have any problem, it's that bad commanders don't get them until late into the game - additional buffs to them are insanity.
Bile bomb is one of the only things that lets an alien team break a similarly skilled marine team in the late game. Bile bomb has to be at the strength it's at now, or it's way too easy to survive indefinitely in a turtle setup. Things like armory blocks (against onos) become nearly impossible to kill with any sort of effectiveness. Remember that nerfing bile bomb also drastically nerfs its damage rate against someone actively welding.
Big picture, the problem is that your low level of skill in NS2 is leading you to believe that marines have a problem with defense. They don't. Marines lose pub games because they have a problem with offense. Pub marines don't harass RTs well, and don't get through gorge walls very well. It leads to situations in where 7 marines are constantly trying to get through one gorged point and consistently fail. It leads to situations in where the alien team has 5 RTs 3 minutes into the game that never die.
Realistically, if you wanted to make one change that would drastically change the win rate with bad players, I would trash most of the proposed changes and limit the alien team to 3 RTs on one hive. Meaning, the alien team would only be able to grab RTs 4/5/6 after the second hive was complete. It wouldn't really change much in games against good marines, because aliens struggle to hold on to more than 3 RTs in those situations anyways. It would however, compensate for terrible marines who don't pressure anything in the first 5 minutes of the game.
Sentries in their current (real game) implementation are balanced solely because of their nest/sight limitation requirement.
Sentries are a waste of resources at the moment. A full pack of sentries can't stop a skulk. One, 0 res skulk. They can't protect anything, even themselves. Now there are only 2 sentries, 5 damage each, which cannot scare even a gorge, but are needed for support fire.
Mines are balready overpowered
And they're almost untouched. What's the point of a mine that can't even explode in time? Counter to mines: Bilebombs, Lerk's flight, Fade's blink, Onos's stomp. They explode from infestation. And you can make them explode by just moving right as a skulk. How is that overpowered?
Bilebomb is too strong for a gorge to have.
Exo is a no match for Onos. I had a situation like this: 1 onos vs 2 dual exos. Onos rushes at them and manages to kill one before dying. How is that balanced? Not to mention the whole unfair economy of aliens. And you whine of mine's faster trigger speed?
Big picture, the problem is that your low level of skill in NS2 is leading you to believe that marines have a problem with defense.
I like people who start from becoming personal and expect to get a proper conversation, instead of "go #### yourself". Have you thought, that 95% of all games are on pubs with average skilled people?
Marines lose pub games because they have a problem with offense.
And why can't the attack? Because they need to keep what they already have. And you can't think of a way, to use sentries offinsively, do you?
Realistically, if you wanted to make one change that would drastically change the win rate with bad players, I would trash most of the proposed changes and limit the alien team to 3 RTs on one hive. Meaning, the alien team would only be able to grab RTs 4/5/6 after the second hive was complete. It wouldn't really change much in games against good marines, because aliens struggle to hold on to more than 3 RTs in those situations anyways. It would however, compensate for terrible marines who don't pressure anything in the first 5 minutes of the game.
That's a lot of mind soup. You've been so busy attacking my position you forgot to build your own.
Yuno it's funny... The more people bicker over a mod that they have never played and that is only on one server so far, the more I think the mod author is on the right track. If no one cared about the mod, I would think that would likely be a far worse result. The fact that it has 'touched a nerve' I think is a good thing. It's getting people discussing the problems and with the mod different balance options can be tested.
Yuno it's funny... The more people bicker over a mod that they have never played and that is only on one server so far, the more I think the mod author is on the right track. If no one cared about the mod, I would think that would likely be a far worse result. The fact that it has 'touched a nerve' I think is a good thing. It's getting people discussing the problems and with the mod different balance options can be tested.
I can't help but think this is a good thing.
No, it's more the fact that other people think they know more on how to balance the game, which they may or may not be right. Instead of learning how to code and putting the effort into making a mod themselves, they'd rather just argue their point and hope the creator of this mod will "see the light".
You talk, like most people playing are pro. And everyone who isn't should l2p. And that's their problem, not balance one. But aliens still keep winning.
That means your understanding of balance is too narrow. Balance should consider skills of it's player base.
And tell me then, why marines should aim precisely and skulks had bite's angle so big you could hit marine while watching in another direction? Is that a fair skill vs skill competition?
Yuno it's funny... The more people bicker over a mod that they have never played and that is only on one server so far, the more I think the mod author is on the right track. If no one cared about the mod, I would think that would likely be a far worse result. The fact that it has 'touched a nerve' I think is a good thing. It's getting people discussing the problems and with the mod different balance options can be tested.
I can't help but think this is a good thing.
To be honest, I cant help but to think that the primary reason for the bickering is not what is IN the mod, but HOW it was presented:
BigTracer posted several posts beforehand in which he claimed to solve all balance problems and in general acted pretty smug and arrogant. He dropped the act pretty soon to his credit and is very open-minded and reasonable about feedback, but I think that initial attitude, together with the proposed changes not being that good is the main reason why people attack his mod.
Thanks for doing this; even if I don't agree with all your changes it is nice to see mods that people can try out.
I do want to say that alien changes 2, 5, 6, and 8 combined with marine change 2... those sound like they would make for an unfun endgame when the aliens have 3 hives and can't break a marine turtle.
Yuno it's funny... The more people bicker over a mod that they have never played and that is only on one server so far, the more I think the mod author is on the right track. If no one cared about the mod, I would think that would likely be a far worse result. The fact that it has 'touched a nerve' I think is a good thing. It's getting people discussing the problems and with the mod different balance options can be tested.
I can't help but think this is a good thing.
To be honest, I cant help but to think that the primary reason for the bickering is not what is IN the mod, but HOW it was presented. Author posted several posts beforehand in which he claimed to solve all balance problems and in general acted pretty arrogant and insufferable. He dropped the act pretty soon to his credit and was pretty good about feedback, but I think that attitude, together with the proposed changes not being that good is the main reason why people attack his mod.
I don't think JAMESEARLJONOS tried playing it. Most likely he saw Turrets and Mines = TurtleTurtleTurtle. I doubt he tried even make 1+1.
Thanks for doing this; even if I don't agree with all your changes it is nice to see mods that people can try out.
I do want to say that alien changes 2, 5, 6, and 8 combined with marine change 2... those sound like they would make for an unfun endgame when the aliens have 3 hives and can't break a marine turtle.
I guess I should limit Armories to 2 per room to prevent blocking entrances with them and delaying inevitable.
I don't think JAMESEARLJONOS tried playing it. Most likely he saw Turrets and Mines = TurtleTurtleTurtle. I doubt he tried even make 1+1.
Yeah, he probably didn't. But lets be honest here: I doubt ANY poster posting here had tried playing it. I also doubt that you have enough data to really reach conclusion if those changes are or aren't good in actual game, considering that there is only one server running your mod for like 2 days.
The whole discussion here, INCLUDING all your proposed changes is pure theorycrafting, so JAMESEARLJONOS opinion isn't any less valid for not playing the mod.
My approach for now is to balance the game without shaking fundamental things like p.res or building times, cause they'll most likely lead to unpredictable consequences and will take a lot of testing to balance it.
I want to balance NS2 within current paradigm AND keep pressure on marines. Affordable pressure brings competition and fun. It's hell of a pleasure to fend off two onoses with cooperated actions and make it fall face to the ground, while it runs away. And I'm still confident I can do that. Especially with that ocean of info and support from you, guys. I wonder why UWE didn't.
I don't think JAMESEARLJONOS tried playing it. Most likely he saw Turrets and Mines = TurtleTurtleTurtle. I doubt he tried even make 1+1.
Yeah, he probably didn't. But lets be honest here: I doubt ANY poster posting here had tried playing it. I also doubt that you have enough data to really reach conclusion if those changes are or aren't good in actual game, considering that there is only one server running your mod for like 2 days.
The whole discussion here, INCLUDING all your proposed changes is pure theorycrafting, so JAMESEARLJONOS opinion isn't any less valid for not playing the mod.
I had a lot of meditation with paper. And I've been trying out different situations in Exploration mode for 5 days now. That's why I speak so confidently that new mines aren't OPed and turrets won't make aliens cry.
A full pack of sentries can't stop a skulk. One, 0 res skulk. They can't protect anything, even themselves. Now there are only 2 sentries, 5 damage each, which cannot scare even a gorge, but are needed for support fire.
Static ranged defense in the form of sentries being buffed in the way you suggest would make alien play horrendously unfun. With your suggested changes, 1 marine and 2 sentries would be able to consistently hold a room against 3 skulks - even if the marine was terrible. Not only is that dynamic ridiculously unfun for the alien side, it's also not even close to balanced.
And they're almost untouched. What's the point of a mine that can't even explode in time? Counter to mines: Bilebombs, Lerk's flight, Fade's blink, Onos's stomp. They explode from infestation. And you can make them explode by just moving right as a skulk. How is that overpowered?
Mines aren't meant for late game power. They are meant for early game map control of key locations. Researching early mines effectively makes forward locations invincible if the people on your team place them down. There's plenty of areas in where the marine team simply outright wins by rushing early mines and getting into an area in the first 2 minutes of the game. Like rushing Cargo vs a Pipeline spawn on veil, and throwing mines up in cargo. The reason why they degrade in power as the game goes on (not dealing with carapace leaping skulks well), is because the idea of mines being a defense unto themselves is not fun. They're designed to help marines who are actively fighting skulks by giving them a strong edge. Fighting in a minefield is an insane advantage.
Bilebomb is too strong for a gorge to have.
Aliens need a strong ranged siege option, or else two-three base marine turtles are essentially unbreakable. Onos get countered extremely hard by any sort of armory wall off. Armory wall offs get countered by max range gorge spam that cannot be outwelded. There are serious and fundamental flaws to the game that become very apparent against a decently skilled marine team if you don't have an option for a strong bile bomb.
Exo is a no match for Onos. I had a situation like this: 1 onos vs 2 dual exos. Onos rushes at them and manages to kill one before dying. How is that balanced? Not to mention the whole unfair economy of aliens. And you whine of mine's faster trigger speed?
Those are really bad exos then who can't hit an onos then. The raw damage output of 2 dual exos is more than enough to utterly crap on an onos long before it kills anything.
Big picture, the problem is that your low level of skill in NS2 is leading you to believe that marines have a problem with defense.
I like people who start from becoming personal and expect to get a proper conversation, instead of "go #### yourself". Have you thought, that 95% of all games are on pubs with average skilled people?
It's a factual observation really. Please go find a single high skill marine and get them to say that marine defense is weak in this game. The fact that you think marine defense is weak (to the point of suggesting several absurd changes) directly reveals your current level of play. It also limits you in actually finding solutions that would work because you have a terrible grasp of the game's current mechanics. Facts are facts.
And why can't the attack? Because they need to keep what they already have. And you can't think of a way, to use sentries offinsively, do you?
Marines can't attack effectively because they usually ball up and get screwed by 1-2 gorge walls. It really has nothing to do with attacks on the base. Most marine teams simply devolve into an ineffective zerg that tries pushing into an area of concentrated aliens. They're also generally slow at running into areas because your average pub marine is apparently scared shitless of being the first person to enter a room. It has nothing to do with defense, which marines are already really good at.
That's a lot of mind soup. You've been so busy attacking my position you forgot to build your own.
Translation: I don't want to acknowlege (or I don't understand) your point, so I'm going to ignore it and make a deflecting statement.
You talk, like most people playing are pro. And everyone who isn't should l2p. And that's their problem, not balance one. But aliens still keep winning.
That means your understanding of balance is too narrow. Balance should consider skills of it's player base.
And tell me then, why marines should aim precisely and skulks had bite's angle so big you could hit marine while watching in another direction? Is that a fair skill vs skill competition?
I'm pretty sure I already pointed out why balance is the way it is right now for average pub players. Pub marines are bad at offense, and its a problem that gets amplified by how gorges work in pub play.
Limiting aliens to 3 RTs per hive, and reducing the effectiveness of clogs/hydras would go a very long way in compensating for terrible marine play. The first change compensates for marines who don't harass RTs well, and prevents situations that should never happen (like the alien team grabbing 5 RTs in the first 3 minutes). The second change helps to prevent the problem of 6 bad pub marines getting stalled by 1-2 gorges indefinitely.
edit:
Improving skulk visibility/changing the skulk model to be more visible in its default form would probably go a really long way also. Top players already compensate for this by having good monitors and cranking up their gamma via control panel settings. Average players usually are playing on substandard monitors, and have no idea how to change gamma settings to deal with overly dark areas. Current skulk visibility comes down hard on the new and inexperienced, and has little effect on veteran level play.
On a side note, if you want to see first hand why offense is the problem (and improving it is the solution), you're more than welcome to follow me into a game and spectate me. You can pretty much see first hand the difference in gameplay outcome/win rate when you have just one high level marine preventing mass RT expansion in the beginning of the game. A change that can be mostly replicated on a structural level by tying alien RT growth to the overall number of hives.
Static ranged defense in the form of sentries being buffed in the way you suggest would make alien play horrendously unfun. With your suggested changes, 1 marine and 2 sentries would be able to consistently hold a room against 3 skulks - even if the marine was terrible. Not only is that dynamic ridiculously unfun for the alien side, it's also not even close to balanced.
And now I'm gettting and idea to stop fighting with you, cause you're making assumptions based on your fantasies. It took about 6 seconds for 2 turrets to take down 1 upgradeless skulk. 3 skulks jump in and ravage marine first, then deal with turrets. 1 can go down. Turrets don't provide that much firepower.
Mines aren't meant for late game power. They are meant for early game map control of key locations. Researching early mines effectively makes forward locations invincible if the people on your team place them down. There's plenty of areas in where the marine team simply outright wins by rushing early mines and getting into an area in the first 2 minutes of the game. Like rushing Cargo vs a Pipeline spawn on veil, and throwing mines up in cargo. The reason why they degrade in power as the game goes on (not dealing with carapace leaping skulks well), is because the idea of mines being a defense unto themselves is not fun. They're designed to help marines who are actively fighting skulks by giving them a strong edge. Fighting in a minefield is an insane advantage.
So what? I didn't increase mine's damage. They only trigger a little faster. That's all.
Aliens need a strong ranged siege option, or else two-three base marine turtles are essentially unbreakable. Onos get countered extremely hard by any sort of armory wall off. Armory wall offs get countered by max range gorge spam that cannot be outwelded. There are serious and fundamental flaws to the game that become very apparent against a decently skilled marine team if you don't have an option for a strong bile bomb.
I'll set a limit for armories today. 2 per room. In all other means bilebomb is overpowered.
Those are really bad exos then who can't hit an onos then. The raw damage output of 2 dual exos is more than enough to utterly crap on an onos long before it kills anything.
I was that onos. They were unloading everything to my face. And as much as I remember I had regen. Maybe they didn't have some upgrades. But I destroyed 1 exo under fire of 2 of them. That's ridiculously balanced.
It's a factual observation really. Please go find a single high skill marine and get them to say that marine defense is weak in this game. The fact that you think marine defense is weak (to the point of suggesting several absurd changes) directly reveals your current level of play. It also limits you in actually finding solutions that would work because you have a terrible grasp of the game's current mechanics. Facts are facts.
And now you're messing your fantasies with reality for the second time. New turrets stay. And I explained many times why.
Marines can't attack effectively because they usually ball up and get screwed by 1-2 gorge walls. It really has nothing to do with attacks on the base. Most marine teams simply devolve into an ineffective zerg that tries pushing into an area of concentrated aliens. They're also generally slow at running into areas because your average pub marine is apparently scared shitless of being the first person to enter a room. It has nothing to do with defense, which marines are already really good at.
You like giving your "VagueOpinion" as facts, do you? What I see most games - our RT's going down while we try to push. And if we divide forces - assault drowns. It's a very rare event to see a succesful ninja-marine taking down harvester. And usually skulks come to get you very soon.
Yes, things change with Phase Gates. But that's another story. And it's hard for marines to push early game. That's where turrets come in. They don't scale with time, so it's a good, balanced solution.
On a side note, if you want to see first hand why offense is the problem (and improving it is the solution), you're more than welcome to follow me into a game and spectate me. You can pretty much see first hand the difference in gameplay outcome/win rate when you have just one high level marine preventing mass RT expansion in the beginning of the game. A change that can be mostly replicated on a structural level by tying alien RT growth to the overall number of hives.
Games aren't won by 1 person. And you proved my "l2p nabs" suspicion. Most players are average skilled. And game should consider it, which it doesn't. My mod doesn't force you to use turrets. They're 7 res each. You can save up for other things, if you can dominate your area yourself.
And a note for you for the future. When you start flaming, other people stop listening. If you want to get anything from anyone, don't start your speech with "you're flacking moron". I don't mean this thread.
Part of the problem with the Onos (vs EXO) is that the Onos can actually clip *through* the EXO. Since the Onos is so big, they made the Onos collision box smaller so he wouldn't get stuck. The side-effect of this is that the model (and hitbox?) are now partially overlapping the EXO. The question is, can the EXO's gun hit the Onos from the *INSIDE*?
If you crunch the numbers for firepower of the Onos it doesn't seem possible that the Onos can last attacking head-on against an EXO - yet he does.
Part of the problem with the Onos (vs EXO) is that the Onos can actually clip *through* the EXO. Since the Onos is so big, they made the Onos collision box smaller so he wouldn't get stuck. The side-effect of this is that the model (and hitbox?) are now partially overlapping the EXO. The question is, can the EXO's gun hit the Onos from the *INSIDE*?
If you crunch the numbers for firepower of the Onos it doesn't seem possible that the Onos can last attacking head-on against an EXO - yet he does.
Onos just has 2,5 times more health+armor(if take armor for 2 points of health) than Exo. Exo simply can't outdamage that in time. But that's cool. Jp + shooties/fires is a counter. And it's a lot of fun.
Exos can form a wall of fire instead and have range. It's not effective against Onoses, but I don't think it has to be.
I don't want to nerf onos in to the ground nevertheless. It has to be strong. Minus 200 armor on carapace just holds it's temper a little.
Actually, shooting from inside hitbox might be an issue too. I'll try to look into it later.
The turrets are meant for supporting marines in forward bases and helping pushes. They were changed to be like that because static defense turrets were not fun for the marine commander nor the aliens. Marine defense is built on putting constant pressure on the aliens now more than anything and mines help in early game if you research those. Marine defense also relies on the commander doing his job, being aware of the situation and beaconing when necessary.
What I'd really like to see is the turrets being more effective in their current job rather than going back to the static defense that no one liked, not even the devs.
The main problem with EXO currently isn't its combat effectiveness against higher lifeforms (though it can be a problem) but rather the fact that it can't really do anything and has zero survivability alone and as such is just too much of a waste in terms of resources, time and manpower unless you're completely dominating. In higher player counts it really isn't an issue but in 8v8 it's just "okay" and in competitive 6v6 it's pretty useless. The Onos on the other hand can do much more in games of all sizes and grows more effective the less players you have. What is left in the marine team's arsenal that is viable and cheaper are jetpacks and w2/w3.
If you really want to affect balance you could look into making alien pushes failing actually mattering with two evenly skilled teams. Though the balance patch mod 240 might address that if the changes get implemented into the main game.
We'll just have to see how the next patch will tip the scales since there will be new abilities and probably some changes as well.
If you crunch the numbers for firepower of the Onos it doesn't seem possible that the Onos can last attacking head-on against an EXO - yet he does.
Onos just has 2,5 times more health+armor(if take armor for 2 points of health) than Exo. Exo simply can't outdamage that in time.
I recall crunching the numbers for this, and the EXO should be able to kill an Onos many times over before his guns overheat.
He has 1300 health and 900 armor (with carapace). Since the minigun does 'heavy' damage, the Onos' armor will only absorb damage on a one-to-one basis. So that's 2200 'effective health' on the Onos.
The EXO minigun does 25 damage per bullet. That means the EXO needs to connect with 88 bullets to kill an Onos. The minigun has a clip size of *250 bullets for each gun*. So the EXO should be able to kill an Onos more than 5 times over before the guns overheat. Yet how many times have you seen an Onos attacking an EXO head on and not dying?
The more I think about it, the more I think the reason why the EXO sucks versus the Onos is because the Onos just isn't getting hit because his model is over top of the EXO. I know the bullet spread is obscene, but even with that if the Onos is sitting on top of the EXO the bullet spread shouldn't be a factor.
The EXO minigun does 25 damage per bullet. That means the EXO needs to connect with 88 bullets to kill an Onos. The minigun has a clip size of *250 bullets for each gun*. So the EXO should be able to kill an Onos more than 5 times over before the guns overheat. Yet how many times have you seen an Onos attacking an EXO head on and not dying?
The more I think about it, the more I think the reason why the EXO sucks versus the Onos is because the Onos just isn't getting hit because his model is over top of the EXO. I know the bullet spread is obscene, but even with that if the Onos is sitting on top of the EXO the bullet spread shouldn't be a factor.
Now that's disturbing. I'll look at actual numbers in code now.
And now I'm gettting and idea to stop fighting with you, cause you're making assumptions based on your fantasies. It took about 6 seconds for 2 turrets to take down 1 upgradeless skulk. 3 skulks jump in and ravage marine first, then deal with turrets. 1 can go down. Turrets don't provide that much firepower.
Supported by two turrets, a single marine is not going to die to three skulks with that vantage point. A good marine stands a chance at killing all 3 without dying himself, and an average to bad marine (provided he's not blind) is going to kill 1 outright and hurt the second. That's a defense without losing even a single turret in most cases. Simple as that.
So what? I didn't increase mine's damage. They only trigger a little faster. That's all.
Point completely over your head as usual. Making mines trigger faster makes them many times more effective against skulks/fades in the mid-late game. A power that's absolutely not warranted on any level for a variety of reasons.
I'll set a limit for armories today. 2 per room. In all other means bilebomb is overpowered.
Armory wall offs were the low hanging fruit I used to illustrate the main point (since it's an easy example). Reducing to 2 armories per room is fine, and honestly probably solves other issues however.
The more complex answer as to why bile bomb has to be as powerful as it is, is that aliens straight up have less combat power than marines. They make up the difference in combat power via flanking and smart areas to engage in. The aliens don't have anything strong in their bag of tricks when it comes to flanking and/or surprise when attacking an enemy base. The alien team is in every way at a combat disadvantage all things being equal. Bile bomb is the one thing that lets an alien team do substantial damage to a base despite losing the battle. And when all things are equal, the alien team will lose when attacking an equally defended marine base. A nerfed bile bomb essentially means that aliens cannot do enough damage in a losing fight to break a turtle and win the game.
I was that onos. They were unloading everything to my face. And as much as I remember I had regen. Maybe they didn't have some upgrades. But I destroyed 1 exo under fire of 2 of them. That's ridiculously balanced.
Two things.
1.) If you're going regen Onos, your understanding of game mechanics is at a lower level than I even thought beforehand. It is an awful choice that has zero upside given the trade off.
2.) Regen Onos dies in 2-4 seconds of sustained fire from two exos. You could do the math to find the exact number, but your onos living in that situation is a case of stormtrooper marine aim and nothing more. Two exos have a truly obscene level of sustained damage. God only knows how one of the two exos managed to not hit something as big as an onos.
And now you're messing your fantasies with reality for the second time. New turrets stay. And I explained many times why.
Non-sequitors ahoy!
You like giving your "VagueOpinion" as facts, do you? What I see most games - our RT's going down while we try to push. And if we divide forces - assault drowns. It's a very rare event to see a succesful ninja-marine taking down harvester. And usually skulks come to get you very soon.
Yes, things change with Phase Gates. But that's another story. And it's hard for marines to push early game. That's where turrets come in. They don't scale with time, so it's a good, balanced solution.
The problem is that marines trying to push run into the inevitable gorge wall and do nothing. Staying there to the point that the alien team eventually finds it's way to killing other RTs. It's not a quick process, because the alien team is hardly aggressive at going after RTs itself. Marines losing RTs over the course of a game is more or less a function of pushes stalling out (giving aliens breathing room), and less over any sort of defensive deficency.
Besides that, it's not "very rare" for marines to single take harvesters. I'm pretty sure I do it all the time in a highly consistent fashion.
Games aren't won by 1 person. And you proved my "l2p nabs" suspicion. Most players are average skilled. And game should consider it, which it doesn't. My mod doesn't force you to use turrets. They're 7 res each. You can save up for other things, if you can dominate your area yourself.
Games actually are won by 1 person all the time. A single high skill marine (with an average comm), or a high skill fade can consistently carry average pub games with a high degree of regularity.
Beyond that, my point was more or less in the theory of what happens to games when RTs die early and are consistently pressured. It's less about the fact that I can single handedly do it, and more about the fact of what happens to the alien team (and consequently marine win rate) when someone does apply such pressure to RTs. Meaning that the onus of change should be compensating for terrible offensive marines, as opposed to buffing marine defense which is already ridiculously good to begin with.
Comments
Simply put, dealing with super mines and turrets wouldn't be fun on any level - let alone being balanced. Do you seriously think people would want to play alien against that?
Bad marines lose games by being inattentive and having bad aim. But they arent feeling actively punished when they lose. Aliens playing against your proposed mechanics would actively feel like crap, because bashing your head against strong static d is one of the least fun things imaginable.
That is irrelevant to my mod like 2 days now. Sooo much irrelevant.
*********************************************
Our very own server: AltBalance Valley
searchable by Game: balance
*********************************************
Full feature list:
-Aliens-
1. No glancing bites for skulks and lerks.
2. Bilebomb: -33% damage. Gorge is reworked to be less dependent on carapace. 15 clogs.
3. Hallucinations got 3 times more HP.
4. Adjusted costs of Chambers and Evolutions to 10 res.
5. Carapace is slightly nerfed. 700 armor for Onos.
6. Crags only heal up to 65% of your constitution.
7. All Abilities are available at second Hive, except for Stomp. Research time is increased. Costs adjusted.
8. Khammander can't drop Onos eggs.
-Marines-
1. Sentries depend on electricity and have 360 degree awareness. 2 per room.
2. Batteries work as small reserve power sources for structures. 1 per room, small radius. Don't need Robotics to use.
3. Mines trigger faster.
4. Slightly higher jetpack acceleration.
5. ARCs HP reduced to 1500.
6. Nanoshield: 35% dmg reduction and 60 sec cooldown.
7. Exos crush cysts.
8. Marine tech tree cost slightly reduced to give more freedom in starting build orders.
Summary. In issue-solution form.
1. Games depend a lot on early game Skulk vs Marine fights. Forced skulks to aim more precisely like marines do. Both sides require skill now.
2. It's hard for marines to secure even their own RT's, not to mention - attacking aliens.
Altered sentries. Also, they can help against Fades, while marines don't have Jets.
3. Horrible weak point in the whole marine infrastructure - power nodes. Nerfed bilebomb, so gorges need some cooperation (ARCs got nerfed HP to reflect bilebomb nerf). Added minor additional power supply.
4. Nerfed Nanoshield as an overpowered feature.
5. Nerfed crags to prevent craging Hives, turtling and incresing role of healing Gorges and Regeneration.
6. The rest of changes are made to make gameplay more variable, give more freedom and reintroduce less used features like Hallucinations and Xenocide.
Goals and result: more balanced, more diversified gameplay. More options, less frustration. More action, less turtrling. Let's discuss and play it.
Would it be out of the question to reduce the degree to 180 degrees? This way you could drop two back to back and have 360 or spread them out to cover different entrances. Keep in mind I haven't played the mod yet so i don't know how much an impact that 360 has, could be I'm spitting in the wind.
I might nerf them, if they will seem inbalanced. But I'm pretty sure they are very good now. I'm glad you're interested!
You're talking too general. There are several directions in these changes. Point out what bothers you the most.
I understand the problem of alien comm/economy model. And those changes are also pointed to adress these issues. Also, I don't want to cut off fun and action. So this is a completed Phase 1 of this mod, which brings balance the soft way.
Sentries are still 360. Mines still trigger faster. Bile bomb drastically nerfed. Seems like my criticism is still 100% accurate.
Yet it brings balance. Sentries deal basic 5 damage. Mines trigger just as much faster to explode when alien is on it, not a meter away.
Bilebomb is a gamebraker at current state in addition to other points. You're being picky and don't want to see the effect of these changes all together.
Sentries in their current (real game) implementation are balanced solely because of their nest/sight limitation requirement. Those requirements stop them from turning every room into an obnoxious sentry shitshow that's horribly unfun for the aliens to deal with. Mines are already overpowered in the current iteration, and buffing them is beyond over the top. Seriously, if mines have any problem, it's that bad commanders don't get them until late into the game - additional buffs to them are insanity.
Bile bomb is one of the only things that lets an alien team break a similarly skilled marine team in the late game. Bile bomb has to be at the strength it's at now, or it's way too easy to survive indefinitely in a turtle setup. Things like armory blocks (against onos) become nearly impossible to kill with any sort of effectiveness. Remember that nerfing bile bomb also drastically nerfs its damage rate against someone actively welding.
Big picture, the problem is that your low level of skill in NS2 is leading you to believe that marines have a problem with defense. They don't. Marines lose pub games because they have a problem with offense. Pub marines don't harass RTs well, and don't get through gorge walls very well. It leads to situations in where 7 marines are constantly trying to get through one gorged point and consistently fail. It leads to situations in where the alien team has 5 RTs 3 minutes into the game that never die.
Realistically, if you wanted to make one change that would drastically change the win rate with bad players, I would trash most of the proposed changes and limit the alien team to 3 RTs on one hive. Meaning, the alien team would only be able to grab RTs 4/5/6 after the second hive was complete. It wouldn't really change much in games against good marines, because aliens struggle to hold on to more than 3 RTs in those situations anyways. It would however, compensate for terrible marines who don't pressure anything in the first 5 minutes of the game.
And they're almost untouched. What's the point of a mine that can't even explode in time? Counter to mines: Bilebombs, Lerk's flight, Fade's blink, Onos's stomp. They explode from infestation. And you can make them explode by just moving right as a skulk. How is that overpowered?
Bilebomb is too strong for a gorge to have.
Exo is a no match for Onos. I had a situation like this: 1 onos vs 2 dual exos. Onos rushes at them and manages to kill one before dying. How is that balanced? Not to mention the whole unfair economy of aliens. And you whine of mine's faster trigger speed?
I like people who start from becoming personal and expect to get a proper conversation, instead of "go #### yourself". Have you thought, that 95% of all games are on pubs with average skilled people?
And why can't the attack? Because they need to keep what they already have. And you can't think of a way, to use sentries offinsively, do you?
That's a lot of mind soup. You've been so busy attacking my position you forgot to build your own.
I can't help but think this is a good thing.
No, it's more the fact that other people think they know more on how to balance the game, which they may or may not be right. Instead of learning how to code and putting the effort into making a mod themselves, they'd rather just argue their point and hope the creator of this mod will "see the light".
You talk, like most people playing are pro. And everyone who isn't should l2p. And that's their problem, not balance one. But aliens still keep winning.
That means your understanding of balance is too narrow. Balance should consider skills of it's player base.
And tell me then, why marines should aim precisely and skulks had bite's angle so big you could hit marine while watching in another direction? Is that a fair skill vs skill competition?
I suggest you reading this thread once again, before telling me how faster mines destroy your precious balance: http://forums.unknownworlds.com/discussion/127784/its-time-we-start-talking-about-the-real-culprit-behind-the-horrendeous-balance/
To be honest, I cant help but to think that the primary reason for the bickering is not what is IN the mod, but HOW it was presented:
BigTracer posted several posts beforehand in which he claimed to solve all balance problems and in general acted pretty smug and arrogant. He dropped the act pretty soon to his credit and is very open-minded and reasonable about feedback, but I think that initial attitude, together with the proposed changes not being that good is the main reason why people attack his mod.
I do want to say that alien changes 2, 5, 6, and 8 combined with marine change 2... those sound like they would make for an unfun endgame when the aliens have 3 hives and can't break a marine turtle.
I don't think JAMESEARLJONOS tried playing it. Most likely he saw Turrets and Mines = TurtleTurtleTurtle. I doubt he tried even make 1+1.
I guess I should limit Armories to 2 per room to prevent blocking entrances with them and delaying inevitable.
Yeah, he probably didn't. But lets be honest here: I doubt ANY poster posting here had tried playing it. I also doubt that you have enough data to really reach conclusion if those changes are or aren't good in actual game, considering that there is only one server running your mod for like 2 days.
The whole discussion here, INCLUDING all your proposed changes is pure theorycrafting, so JAMESEARLJONOS opinion isn't any less valid for not playing the mod.
I want to balance NS2 within current paradigm AND keep pressure on marines. Affordable pressure brings competition and fun. It's hell of a pleasure to fend off two onoses with cooperated actions and make it fall face to the ground, while it runs away. And I'm still confident I can do that. Especially with that ocean of info and support from you, guys. I wonder why UWE didn't.
I had a lot of meditation with paper. And I've been trying out different situations in Exploration mode for 5 days now. That's why I speak so confidently that new mines aren't OPed and turrets won't make aliens cry.
Static ranged defense in the form of sentries being buffed in the way you suggest would make alien play horrendously unfun. With your suggested changes, 1 marine and 2 sentries would be able to consistently hold a room against 3 skulks - even if the marine was terrible. Not only is that dynamic ridiculously unfun for the alien side, it's also not even close to balanced.
Mines aren't meant for late game power. They are meant for early game map control of key locations. Researching early mines effectively makes forward locations invincible if the people on your team place them down. There's plenty of areas in where the marine team simply outright wins by rushing early mines and getting into an area in the first 2 minutes of the game. Like rushing Cargo vs a Pipeline spawn on veil, and throwing mines up in cargo. The reason why they degrade in power as the game goes on (not dealing with carapace leaping skulks well), is because the idea of mines being a defense unto themselves is not fun. They're designed to help marines who are actively fighting skulks by giving them a strong edge. Fighting in a minefield is an insane advantage.
Aliens need a strong ranged siege option, or else two-three base marine turtles are essentially unbreakable. Onos get countered extremely hard by any sort of armory wall off. Armory wall offs get countered by max range gorge spam that cannot be outwelded. There are serious and fundamental flaws to the game that become very apparent against a decently skilled marine team if you don't have an option for a strong bile bomb.
Those are really bad exos then who can't hit an onos then. The raw damage output of 2 dual exos is more than enough to utterly crap on an onos long before it kills anything.
It's a factual observation really. Please go find a single high skill marine and get them to say that marine defense is weak in this game. The fact that you think marine defense is weak (to the point of suggesting several absurd changes) directly reveals your current level of play. It also limits you in actually finding solutions that would work because you have a terrible grasp of the game's current mechanics. Facts are facts.
Marines can't attack effectively because they usually ball up and get screwed by 1-2 gorge walls. It really has nothing to do with attacks on the base. Most marine teams simply devolve into an ineffective zerg that tries pushing into an area of concentrated aliens. They're also generally slow at running into areas because your average pub marine is apparently scared shitless of being the first person to enter a room. It has nothing to do with defense, which marines are already really good at.
Translation: I don't want to acknowlege (or I don't understand) your point, so I'm going to ignore it and make a deflecting statement.
I'm pretty sure I already pointed out why balance is the way it is right now for average pub players. Pub marines are bad at offense, and its a problem that gets amplified by how gorges work in pub play.
Limiting aliens to 3 RTs per hive, and reducing the effectiveness of clogs/hydras would go a very long way in compensating for terrible marine play. The first change compensates for marines who don't harass RTs well, and prevents situations that should never happen (like the alien team grabbing 5 RTs in the first 3 minutes). The second change helps to prevent the problem of 6 bad pub marines getting stalled by 1-2 gorges indefinitely.
edit:
Improving skulk visibility/changing the skulk model to be more visible in its default form would probably go a really long way also. Top players already compensate for this by having good monitors and cranking up their gamma via control panel settings. Average players usually are playing on substandard monitors, and have no idea how to change gamma settings to deal with overly dark areas. Current skulk visibility comes down hard on the new and inexperienced, and has little effect on veteran level play.
And now I'm gettting and idea to stop fighting with you, cause you're making assumptions based on your fantasies. It took about 6 seconds for 2 turrets to take down 1 upgradeless skulk. 3 skulks jump in and ravage marine first, then deal with turrets. 1 can go down. Turrets don't provide that much firepower.
So what? I didn't increase mine's damage. They only trigger a little faster. That's all.
I'll set a limit for armories today. 2 per room. In all other means bilebomb is overpowered.
I was that onos. They were unloading everything to my face. And as much as I remember I had regen. Maybe they didn't have some upgrades. But I destroyed 1 exo under fire of 2 of them. That's ridiculously balanced.
And now you're messing your fantasies with reality for the second time. New turrets stay. And I explained many times why.
You like giving your "VagueOpinion" as facts, do you? What I see most games - our RT's going down while we try to push. And if we divide forces - assault drowns. It's a very rare event to see a succesful ninja-marine taking down harvester. And usually skulks come to get you very soon.
Yes, things change with Phase Gates. But that's another story. And it's hard for marines to push early game. That's where turrets come in. They don't scale with time, so it's a good, balanced solution.
Games aren't won by 1 person. And you proved my "l2p nabs" suspicion. Most players are average skilled. And game should consider it, which it doesn't. My mod doesn't force you to use turrets. They're 7 res each. You can save up for other things, if you can dominate your area yourself.
And a note for you for the future. When you start flaming, other people stop listening. If you want to get anything from anyone, don't start your speech with "you're flacking moron". I don't mean this thread.
If you crunch the numbers for firepower of the Onos it doesn't seem possible that the Onos can last attacking head-on against an EXO - yet he does.
Onos just has 2,5 times more health+armor(if take armor for 2 points of health) than Exo. Exo simply can't outdamage that in time. But that's cool. Jp + shooties/fires is a counter. And it's a lot of fun.
Exos can form a wall of fire instead and have range. It's not effective against Onoses, but I don't think it has to be.
I don't want to nerf onos in to the ground nevertheless. It has to be strong. Minus 200 armor on carapace just holds it's temper a little.
Actually, shooting from inside hitbox might be an issue too. I'll try to look into it later.
What I'd really like to see is the turrets being more effective in their current job rather than going back to the static defense that no one liked, not even the devs.
The main problem with EXO currently isn't its combat effectiveness against higher lifeforms (though it can be a problem) but rather the fact that it can't really do anything and has zero survivability alone and as such is just too much of a waste in terms of resources, time and manpower unless you're completely dominating. In higher player counts it really isn't an issue but in 8v8 it's just "okay" and in competitive 6v6 it's pretty useless. The Onos on the other hand can do much more in games of all sizes and grows more effective the less players you have. What is left in the marine team's arsenal that is viable and cheaper are jetpacks and w2/w3.
If you really want to affect balance you could look into making alien pushes failing actually mattering with two evenly skilled teams. Though the balance patch mod 240 might address that if the changes get implemented into the main game.
We'll just have to see how the next patch will tip the scales since there will be new abilities and probably some changes as well.
He has 1300 health and 900 armor (with carapace). Since the minigun does 'heavy' damage, the Onos' armor will only absorb damage on a one-to-one basis. So that's 2200 'effective health' on the Onos.
The EXO minigun does 25 damage per bullet. That means the EXO needs to connect with 88 bullets to kill an Onos. The minigun has a clip size of *250 bullets for each gun*. So the EXO should be able to kill an Onos more than 5 times over before the guns overheat. Yet how many times have you seen an Onos attacking an EXO head on and not dying?
The more I think about it, the more I think the reason why the EXO sucks versus the Onos is because the Onos just isn't getting hit because his model is over top of the EXO. I know the bullet spread is obscene, but even with that if the Onos is sitting on top of the EXO the bullet spread shouldn't be a factor.
That's a point. Exo's a complicated phenomen. I need to meditate more to make any additional statements.
Now that's disturbing. I'll look at actual numbers in code now.
Supported by two turrets, a single marine is not going to die to three skulks with that vantage point. A good marine stands a chance at killing all 3 without dying himself, and an average to bad marine (provided he's not blind) is going to kill 1 outright and hurt the second. That's a defense without losing even a single turret in most cases. Simple as that.
Point completely over your head as usual. Making mines trigger faster makes them many times more effective against skulks/fades in the mid-late game. A power that's absolutely not warranted on any level for a variety of reasons.
Armory wall offs were the low hanging fruit I used to illustrate the main point (since it's an easy example). Reducing to 2 armories per room is fine, and honestly probably solves other issues however.
The more complex answer as to why bile bomb has to be as powerful as it is, is that aliens straight up have less combat power than marines. They make up the difference in combat power via flanking and smart areas to engage in. The aliens don't have anything strong in their bag of tricks when it comes to flanking and/or surprise when attacking an enemy base. The alien team is in every way at a combat disadvantage all things being equal. Bile bomb is the one thing that lets an alien team do substantial damage to a base despite losing the battle. And when all things are equal, the alien team will lose when attacking an equally defended marine base. A nerfed bile bomb essentially means that aliens cannot do enough damage in a losing fight to break a turtle and win the game.
Two things.
1.) If you're going regen Onos, your understanding of game mechanics is at a lower level than I even thought beforehand. It is an awful choice that has zero upside given the trade off.
2.) Regen Onos dies in 2-4 seconds of sustained fire from two exos. You could do the math to find the exact number, but your onos living in that situation is a case of stormtrooper marine aim and nothing more. Two exos have a truly obscene level of sustained damage. God only knows how one of the two exos managed to not hit something as big as an onos.
Non-sequitors ahoy!
The problem is that marines trying to push run into the inevitable gorge wall and do nothing. Staying there to the point that the alien team eventually finds it's way to killing other RTs. It's not a quick process, because the alien team is hardly aggressive at going after RTs itself. Marines losing RTs over the course of a game is more or less a function of pushes stalling out (giving aliens breathing room), and less over any sort of defensive deficency.
Besides that, it's not "very rare" for marines to single take harvesters. I'm pretty sure I do it all the time in a highly consistent fashion.
Games actually are won by 1 person all the time. A single high skill marine (with an average comm), or a high skill fade can consistently carry average pub games with a high degree of regularity.
Beyond that, my point was more or less in the theory of what happens to games when RTs die early and are consistently pressured. It's less about the fact that I can single handedly do it, and more about the fact of what happens to the alien team (and consequently marine win rate) when someone does apply such pressure to RTs. Meaning that the onus of change should be compensating for terrible offensive marines, as opposed to buffing marine defense which is already ridiculously good to begin with.