To remove all armor gain from an armory seems a bit overkill. What about, if you upgrade your armory to advanced. THEN it would give you your armor back. Then the commander has to decide if he wants to invest 30 TR to repair your armor.
One of the main purposes of removing armour repair at the armoury is to minimise the effectiveness of marine turtling. Allowing advanced armoury to repair armour brings essentially no benefits (by this point in the game, welders are already bought frequently as it is), and all the drawbacks (because aliens don't have quite the sieging abilities of marines in a turtle situation).
Also, 'many of us' have NOT agreed that self-weld is a good idea - quite the opposite, most people here seem to disagree with that.
I agree that a reduction in the cost of welders should be TESTED, but personally I think it's fine at 5 pres.
In vanilla NS2 right now, I almost always buy a welder when they're available. Other marines should be doing this - and many are in the games I play - and the removal of armour repair at the armoury *shouldn't* have the catastrophic impact that's being predicted here. I personally would love to see only this change being tested so we can evaluate its effect in isolation. That would give us a basis to test all the proposals here, such as self weld, varying cost of welders, advanced armoury repair, etc etc. Unfortunately, I can't see that happening!
I personally would love to see only this change being tested so we can evaluate its effect in isolation. That would give us a basis to test all the proposals here, such as self weld, varying cost of welders, advanced armoury repair, etc etc. Unfortunately, I can't see that happening!
Hm I wonder if the the armory changes are even being considered at this point. The balance mod has had some drastic changes that each one could potentially bring huge arguments that dwarf the armory healing topic. So I am curious as to how these changes would go to being potentially considered and processed for possible implementation.
As for self weld why is it such a bad idea in your opinion? From my view, if people have good team mates they will get faster welding within seconds from them and if they have bad team mates they will get nothing. I was personally frustrated when I was playing the mod and I sank pres to weld my team mates and no one wanted to return the favor even when I obviously saw them pick up welders. At least self welding guarantees that the one who spends pres to heal his team also has a method to heal his own armor at a much slower rate (leaving himself vulnerable and indicating he has low armor to the other team) if his team mates do not feel like buying welders or welding.
I found in the few ns1 servers with self weld that I tried, it promoted ramboism, because the mechanism exists to be essentially self-sufficient. I'm not averse to trying it out, but I inherently don't like it.
I would like to see an additional 'weld me' key like q on the exo for all marines, this would help reduce the rate of non-welders.
invTempestJoin Date: 2003-03-02Member: 14223Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
edited March 2013
+1 to removing armory weld.
+1 to promoting team work.
+1 to limiting end game marine turtles on A3.
+1 to allowing aliens to hit and run and actually do damage.
It may be easy to take out MACs, but it's just as easy to replace them. Otherwise you might as well discuss a permanent armor healing upgrade for the Armory, which is not what this change was aiming to do.
I was merely naming a way to get armor healing in your base that people were worried about, not something to replace the need to have Welders instead of relying on a forward Armory. MACs do a fine job at getting you back to full, it's not that much slower than a default Armory, just that one MAC can't weld all guys at the same time and you might want to get a second one if you feel the need for it. Or keep using Welders. Added benefits of MACs are that they also keep your base repaired.
There isn't much micromanagement involved in them after all. And if you assign the Follow & Weld to the Armory, the MAC will keep all guys coming towards it healed up and then returns. I don't see a problem with the AI anywhere.
Lower Welder cost to 3 pres, that's fine.
It might be a good idea to have the population limit scale with the player count of the server as well, though. More players mean more MACs that are needed, more enemies who can just outnumber any Sentry nest that you place and more Gorges that can outheal a few ARCs in a Hive assault.
Sure it is easy to replace them wasting tres. But that just drains tres that could have been used to save up for upgrades if you go early robo factory + 2 MACs. So it is draining marine expansion if you decide to build those MACs +robo factory and to send MACs to each base you obtain. How will it affect balance I really do not know.
Lowering welder cost is fine with me. What is your opinion on a self weld? I mainly state it because it allows you to weld yourself when faced when unwilling teammates who do not weld or do not buy welders and that led to frustration in some games I played with the mod. It still removes the armor hump and you still got people draining pres on it. Plus you no longer have armory healing with a gun out as you would need to take the welder out to self weld putting yourself at risk. It would also give people incentive to buy a welder since they know they can always repair their own armor if people are unwilling.
Long long ago in the I&S fourm I bought up the idea of a marine being able to repair only 50% of their own armor with a welder as they can't reach all the nooks and crannies by themselves leaving the other 50% to be welded by a teammate. Would remove the need to constantly go back to armories and promote team play between marines.
Metal ManJoin Date: 2011-11-13Member: 132717Members
Wow Worthy I like that so much... nice.
OR (though I probably like your idea better) you can only weld yourself while you weld a teammate, but you both weld to full. It's a bit gimmicky I know
I wonder if the the armory changes are even being considered at this point.
Considered for what? Inclusion? It hasn't reached that stage yet, and it may or may not. Once the devs have time to start looking at changes/new features, they'll consider everything - whether part of that mod or not.
However, based on how a VERY subtle change in the game swung balance by a marked amount, anything they do change will be internally tested extensively before it gets anywhere. One of the problems with NS2 is that balance is so easy to torpedo without intending to.
Given how long the game went with aliens winning 60% of games, you can be sure the devs won't be doing anything that might push the game back in that direction.
Long long ago in the I&S fourm I bought up the idea of a marine being able to repair only 50% of their own armor with a welder as they can't reach all the nooks and crannies by themselves leaving the other 50% to be welded by a teammate. Would remove the need to constantly go back to armories and promote team play between marines.
Gotta say, I really like this idea. I was always against self welding, and I was surprised when I discovered that the armories repaired armor. I think this is a happy medium.
Once you have purchased a Welder (costs more) you always spawn with a Welder. Want your Axe back? Go to and buy it again (same res. as the Welder).
You know this is pretty good idea. The only problem is that it isn't terribly consistent with all other armory purchases....Maybe turn it into a researchable upgrade in armory that will make you always spawn with welder once you purchase one (you will also not drop the welder after death for obvious reason, and can revert back to axe by dropping the welder)?
SewlekThe programmer previously known as SchimmelJoin Date: 2003-05-13Member: 16247Members, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Gold, Subnautica Developer
the armory changes are being considered, thats why i opened the thread and I will soon make a new mod which features changes considered for the next patch. im relying on your feedback here and ingame, so thanks everybody for posting so much!
the armory changes are being considered, thats why i opened the thread and I will soon make a new mod which features changes considered for the next patch. im relying on your feedback here and ingame, so thanks everybody for posting so much!
Cool that means we can keep our arguing relevant to those considered changes. The heads up helps a lot in shaping the game. Thanks
I assume that marines start with full armor? If that were the case, than in the game as it is now if the armories did not provide armor repair, I would not hesitate to console kill myself to restore my armor. Hell, I already do it once in a while when the walk back is a little long (I currently have kill bound to F5). I don't think adding a mechanic to the game that encourages suicide as a viable option is a good idea.
I assume that marines start with full armor? If that were the case, than in the game as it is now if the armories did not provide armor repair, I would not hesitate to console kill myself to restore my armor.
I said the same thing upthread. Just take a peek at the scoreboard to make sure there isn't a line in the spawn queue. Hell, people used to suicide in NS1 because they got PARASITED, since you could never remove the effect. Never thought I would need to start doing that again.
What? How can you have any sort of map presence if you type kill in console .. are you unable to mouse1 unless you have full armor?
Depends on where you are and what your doing (or planning to do). If you would be heading back to base anyway, you lose nothing by suiciding. Of course, there's the question of why you wouldn't just suicide charge some harvester or base of the enemies, but sometimes that's not as good an idea as it sounds.
What? How can you have any sort of map presence if you type kill in console .. are you unable to mouse1 unless you have full armor?
You won't have any map presence if you die in 2 bites instead of 4 either. Once armor 1 has been researched, you only weaken your ability to survive a conflict if you have no armor.
I think the armories should not restore any type of armor. There are welders in the game and they should be used. Why have welders whenever you can just drop an armory around every corner? I strongly support not having armories restore armor.
What? How can you have any sort of map presence if you type kill in console .. are you unable to mouse1 unless you have full armor?
Depends on where you are and what your doing (or planning to do). If you would be heading back to base anyway, you lose nothing by suiciding. Of course, there's the question of why you wouldn't just suicide charge some harvester or base of the enemies, but sometimes that's not as good an idea as it sounds.
Imagine you do this with 4 more in queue and a base rush happens. It isn't like in NS1 where beaconing resurrects your dead :P It is a risk you take. Plus i like a good k:d ratio and i refuse to kill myself.
What i will like seeing if this change gets made (probably already been said) is the constant marine pressure through welding and med packs. No more armory humpers running half the map to heal up. So frustrating they get a little damage and run back losing time and positioning. Early game welders will become important for the much needed marine aggression.
+1 to removing armory weld.
+1 to promoting team work.
+1 to limiting end game marine turtles on A3.
+1 to allowing aliens to hit and run and actually do damage.
+1 to eliminating cancer
+1 to world peace
+1 to global prosperity
Killing yourself only to lose your armour again next time you're in a fight is both ridiculous and pointless. I would be pretty annoyed with my marines if they kept doing this while I was comming. Imagine if everyone did this. Might as well just stay in base and spam kill when you spawn, frankly. Reductio ab absurdum? Not really. How often do you as comm rely on your marines to hold a position for a while - just while phase tech is finishing, while a couple more marines support from another location ready for a push. "Wait up comm, I can't push with the team, I've got no armour so I have to kill myself and make you all wait while I respawn and get back into position."
There is literally NO time you can convince me that /kill is the better option, unless you consistently kill the entire team single-handedly, but only ever when you have full armour. In this case, you could argue that having full armour is essential before every engagement, assuming the enemy team is all together. And if this is true, then your team will win regardless, so it's a moot point, and also an infeasibly unlikely scenario.
Instead of a suicide mission (a label I really dislike... if you're successful, you can fall back for health/welding anyway), what about distraction? "Hey comm, I'm over in the dome with no armour, want me to hit cargo while the squad gets ready to hit sub sector?" What about scouting (save the team the res for a scan, get the opportunity to damage the alien economy, retain the chance to pull off a good few kills and secure a new area, maintain map presence, support your fellow marines...)? Not to mention that you don't get res while dead in any case (though I would like to see this changed, I'll admit).
And you're forgetting another thing: buying welders in the current build DOES happen. There are those of us who DO weld our teammates, and get welded. Frequently. And that keeps us alive as a group in key locations for significant portions of time when it's not necessary, economically viable, or possible to build an armoury. Remember, the armoury costs res, needs power, and can't be built on infestation. Getting people into the good practice of welding for armour can only improve this situation and I would project would lead in the medium term to a buff for marines' attacking capability (compared to the current situation where fewer people buy welders than they would if this change goes ahead, because they don't yet understand why, even now, it's a great purchase).
Look at higher level play to see why welding your buddy is so effective right now. I would love for more people to understand this...
Now sure let's talk about pricing of welders if you like, let's talk about welders being a researchable permanent upgrade, whatever - though personally I think 5 res is about right anyway - but just saying this change would promote /kill is ridiculous. I haven't seen ANYONE do that currently, so it's all very well to say 'well I do it,' but I'm sorry to inform you that this is not the norm, it's not common, in fact it's got to be incredibly rare. In 300h, I have not seen anyone /kill to respawn with armour. Not one. Just how big a problem do you predict this will become?
A dichotomy that I find both laughable and tragic here is that on the one hand 'buying welders/welding is not fun,' yet 'I'll type /kill in console to spawn with full armour.'
Staying alive, helping teammates, maintaining tactical and strategic advantage, faster and safer way of de-cysting amd declogging: NOT FUN.
Typing kill in console: FUN.
Comments
Ideas on that?
Also, 'many of us' have NOT agreed that self-weld is a good idea - quite the opposite, most people here seem to disagree with that.
I agree that a reduction in the cost of welders should be TESTED, but personally I think it's fine at 5 pres.
In vanilla NS2 right now, I almost always buy a welder when they're available. Other marines should be doing this - and many are in the games I play - and the removal of armour repair at the armoury *shouldn't* have the catastrophic impact that's being predicted here. I personally would love to see only this change being tested so we can evaluate its effect in isolation. That would give us a basis to test all the proposals here, such as self weld, varying cost of welders, advanced armoury repair, etc etc. Unfortunately, I can't see that happening!
Hm I wonder if the the armory changes are even being considered at this point. The balance mod has had some drastic changes that each one could potentially bring huge arguments that dwarf the armory healing topic. So I am curious as to how these changes would go to being potentially considered and processed for possible implementation.
As for self weld why is it such a bad idea in your opinion? From my view, if people have good team mates they will get faster welding within seconds from them and if they have bad team mates they will get nothing. I was personally frustrated when I was playing the mod and I sank pres to weld my team mates and no one wanted to return the favor even when I obviously saw them pick up welders. At least self welding guarantees that the one who spends pres to heal his team also has a method to heal his own armor at a much slower rate (leaving himself vulnerable and indicating he has low armor to the other team) if his team mates do not feel like buying welders or welding.
I would like to see an additional 'weld me' key like q on the exo for all marines, this would help reduce the rate of non-welders.
+1 to promoting team work.
+1 to limiting end game marine turtles on A3.
+1 to allowing aliens to hit and run and actually do damage.
Sure it is easy to replace them wasting tres. But that just drains tres that could have been used to save up for upgrades if you go early robo factory + 2 MACs. So it is draining marine expansion if you decide to build those MACs +robo factory and to send MACs to each base you obtain. How will it affect balance I really do not know.
Lowering welder cost is fine with me. What is your opinion on a self weld? I mainly state it because it allows you to weld yourself when faced when unwilling teammates who do not weld or do not buy welders and that led to frustration in some games I played with the mod. It still removes the armor hump and you still got people draining pres on it. Plus you no longer have armory healing with a gun out as you would need to take the welder out to self weld putting yourself at risk. It would also give people incentive to buy a welder since they know they can always repair their own armor if people are unwilling.
OR (though I probably like your idea better) you can only weld yourself while you weld a teammate, but you both weld to full. It's a bit gimmicky I know
However, based on how a VERY subtle change in the game swung balance by a marked amount, anything they do change will be internally tested extensively before it gets anywhere. One of the problems with NS2 is that balance is so easy to torpedo without intending to.
Given how long the game went with aliens winning 60% of games, you can be sure the devs won't be doing anything that might push the game back in that direction.
Gotta say, I really like this idea. I was always against self welding, and I was surprised when I discovered that the armories repaired armor. I think this is a happy medium.
Go to an Armory to heal health. Go to the Arms Lab to heal armour.
Once you have purchased a Welder (costs more) you always spawn with a Welder. Want your Axe back? Go to and buy it again (same res. as the Welder).
Allow the Commander to drop meds and armour. Armour costs significantly more.
You know this is pretty good idea. The only problem is that it isn't terribly consistent with all other armory purchases....Maybe turn it into a researchable upgrade in armory that will make you always spawn with welder once you purchase one (you will also not drop the welder after death for obvious reason, and can revert back to axe by dropping the welder)?
How else can you crouch around the map failing to kill anything before being eaten?
So many people do this ^_^
I've gotten axe kills on lerks and gorges, skulks no, though welder.kill yes... still waiting for axe kill on fade though.
Cool that means we can keep our arguing relevant to those considered changes. The heads up helps a lot in shaping the game. Thanks
Depends on where you are and what your doing (or planning to do). If you would be heading back to base anyway, you lose nothing by suiciding. Of course, there's the question of why you wouldn't just suicide charge some harvester or base of the enemies, but sometimes that's not as good an idea as it sounds.
Imagine you do this with 4 more in queue and a base rush happens. It isn't like in NS1 where beaconing resurrects your dead :P It is a risk you take. Plus i like a good k:d ratio and i refuse to kill myself.
What i will like seeing if this change gets made (probably already been said) is the constant marine pressure through welding and med packs. No more armory humpers running half the map to heal up. So frustrating they get a little damage and run back losing time and positioning. Early game welders will become important for the much needed marine aggression.
+1 to eliminating cancer
+1 to world peace
+1 to global prosperity
Pls don't give them more ideas.
There is literally NO time you can convince me that /kill is the better option, unless you consistently kill the entire team single-handedly, but only ever when you have full armour. In this case, you could argue that having full armour is essential before every engagement, assuming the enemy team is all together. And if this is true, then your team will win regardless, so it's a moot point, and also an infeasibly unlikely scenario.
Instead of a suicide mission (a label I really dislike... if you're successful, you can fall back for health/welding anyway), what about distraction? "Hey comm, I'm over in the dome with no armour, want me to hit cargo while the squad gets ready to hit sub sector?" What about scouting (save the team the res for a scan, get the opportunity to damage the alien economy, retain the chance to pull off a good few kills and secure a new area, maintain map presence, support your fellow marines...)? Not to mention that you don't get res while dead in any case (though I would like to see this changed, I'll admit).
And you're forgetting another thing: buying welders in the current build DOES happen. There are those of us who DO weld our teammates, and get welded. Frequently. And that keeps us alive as a group in key locations for significant portions of time when it's not necessary, economically viable, or possible to build an armoury. Remember, the armoury costs res, needs power, and can't be built on infestation. Getting people into the good practice of welding for armour can only improve this situation and I would project would lead in the medium term to a buff for marines' attacking capability (compared to the current situation where fewer people buy welders than they would if this change goes ahead, because they don't yet understand why, even now, it's a great purchase).
Look at higher level play to see why welding your buddy is so effective right now. I would love for more people to understand this...
Now sure let's talk about pricing of welders if you like, let's talk about welders being a researchable permanent upgrade, whatever - though personally I think 5 res is about right anyway - but just saying this change would promote /kill is ridiculous. I haven't seen ANYONE do that currently, so it's all very well to say 'well I do it,' but I'm sorry to inform you that this is not the norm, it's not common, in fact it's got to be incredibly rare. In 300h, I have not seen anyone /kill to respawn with armour. Not one. Just how big a problem do you predict this will become?
A dichotomy that I find both laughable and tragic here is that on the one hand 'buying welders/welding is not fun,' yet 'I'll type /kill in console to spawn with full armour.'
Staying alive, helping teammates, maintaining tactical and strategic advantage, faster and safer way of de-cysting amd declogging: NOT FUN.
Typing kill in console: FUN.
I despair.
The issue is that you probably (maybe/occasionally) won't get welded.
So, I pose the question. If you have no armour, and nobody will weld you, what do you do? What are your options?