Try following:
Open http://ns2stats.com/ and look @ the last games tracked there.
Im sure you will find these "chosen ones" as someone mentioned before on 80% of these rounds.
I find a round where the OP had 13-1 on a rookie server: http://ns2stats.com/round/round/258226
Is 13-1 pub stomping? Well, looks like.
8 out of 10 of his last rounds were on that same server with K:D of 21:2, 23:4, 34:1
This is my serverbroweser, trying to enter a game right now, it includes the server you reffered to in your post.
I find 7 white and 11 green servers.
3 of the top 5 servers (ordered by skill) are green (how can this even happen if white/green has ANY meaning and good players are not allowed to play on green servers?).
5 of the 7 white servers have pings above 150.
3 of them are shown in my list although they are full because of the dumb reserverd slots...
What do you reccoment? Wich server should I join here?
Or do you really want me to not play the game at all?
Using hive stats is hardly evidence of pubstomping. I wouldn't use those stats for much of anything. Snails and Titus have an average skill factor of less than 500. So why is BestProfileName not the god of gods in NS2?
Also, 21:2 and 23:4 is hardly pubstomping. 34:1 is pushing it but you never know the circumstances. As I mentioned in my previous post, I was helping a new-ish commander and fading. Anzestral's not a douchebag. I'm sure he's helped plenty in pubs. Hes helped me with Marine and fade play as well during a practice or two. Good luck trying to killing him with the ping difference though. Lol
Saying people are brainless and/or playing brainlessly doesn't help, either... honestly, I think this is partially the fault of how the game has been built. But, of course, there are going to be stackers here and there.
Pointless thread is pointless. People will be people. The game seemingly was made for everyone of equal skill.
All i wanted to say is:
There are empty med to high skill servers while the med-high skill players are on low skill servers.
And as you have high skilled pub players also this isnt a "pro" clanplayers problem only.
Can i name & shame myself?
I play on low skill servers also sometimes. Most of the time i try to stack against pub stars but sometimes i need some relaxed rounds where i dont care about how stacked a round is.
If you lose one round after another i need these rounds to motivate me.
I play this game around 3,5 years now and 1,5 years after the release im tired to tell the people to leave the base @ roundstart.
And im tired of teaching rookies, i have done this for around 1 year.
But after telling the same again and again like an mantra in every round to rookies with zero effect i let them play and let them learn for themself.
I'll say it again; the solution is getting more players, and keeping them.
Problem wouldn't nearly be as bad if it weren't for the awful player retention. At least people who stay, learn and get better.
YO used to be considerably higher in average skill level, but the past few months I can really identify with what DePara is saying. It's like the last green wave washed away all the players who cba to teach, and it's still here.
Every single game lately is a huge freaking effort to steer these players in the right direction (mostly not green named, but very much the green players). I played at least 12 hours this weekend, and had perhaps 2-3 games that didnt feel like i was babysitting the entire team, save for a couple.
What am I even doing in this game? Am I just here to attempt to teach people who will ultimately lose interest before learning the most basic of engagement mechanics?
For hours and hours every day.
It feels more like a job than recreation.
And after all that, as server admin I'm put in the incredibly uncomfortable position of having the 9 other players on my team complain that they have no chance against the stack that inevitably happens when players from div 1 join and want to play a bit of pub.
I do not feel at all comfortable kicking players from a non-rookie server because they are too good, nor do I enjoy being bitched at by a team of people every time it happens.
All I can do is 'force even' as much as possible and try as much as I can to counter the stack (basically go onos so the marines stop shooting my floor-running buddies).
Skill difference game allows is very big. Mind you, it does not justify the actions of of certain people who so subtly (and shamelessly) try to justify themselves or just have no spines: preach about learn-to-play but so seldom go against same skill player and demonstrate how to deal with the guy that killed half of the team in seconds.
Ahem. @MoFo brought some good points, there is just nothing we, casual players, can do against stack. NO self respecting game puts so much power in hands of a player.
That said, me and reminder of my friends who still play (well 1 guy basically) evade YOClan server like a plague since earliest of times. Not that stacking is exclusive on it but is just plain obvious and brutal and met with "*hurrrrrr* my friends'n me ltp!!!1" elitist shit or just awkward silence followed by 2 min game.
Using hive stats is hardly evidence of pubstomping. I wouldn't use those stats for much of anything. Snails and Titus have an average skill factor of less than 500. So why is BestProfileName not the god of gods in NS2?
Whoosh.
No. 1 player on hive stats played pretty much exclusively on the UWE rookie friendly servers. He stomped rookies as an "advanced" player (not competitive or "pro"). He was getting in the 1000s point range. That is a stomp. Those are the the players we should be discussing in this thread, NOT the legitimate "pros" who we've seen through ns2stats show less of a stomp and through anecdotes of other players who defend us.
All the high level comp players defending themselves in this thread specifically are some of the most intelligent, fair and helpful people I've played with, and the same goes for most of the rest of them.
Just to provide a different perspective from all the pro player bashing: I played a recent round with ancestral on ghouls server on veil. He immediately went gorge, supported the team the whole time, gave strategic advice and went 2/5 k/d.
I'm just asking everyone to stop throwing their fingers around at an easily identifiable part of the community (badges, clan tags, names, scores) who legitimately aren't playing maliciously, and look for the real problems.
We join a server, can't identify who's good/bad for the first round and join.
2nd round+ the "advanced" players stack us when we're often first to join a team.
Rookie stack (this is the opposite side of the same coin as "advanced" players stacking)
New commanders
Psychological disadvantage (Giving up before the game starts)
I've just realised that I can sit in ready room and be the last person to join a team, asking people what they think is the best side for me to go on. I'm now going to start doing this, although I'll probably stop as soon as the conceited arrogance flame starts coming in.
I will offer again. I want to help people get better, so if you want any advice, if you want to play with/against me, if you want me to spec you, I will help. I'd much much much rather spend my time helping people than spend my time getting abused.
If you don't want to take this offer up for whatever reason, that's ok. I don't expect people to set aside extra time to improve themselves. I just want to put this out on the table to help narrow skill disparities across the board, which is undeniably one of the biggest problems in public.
But I must ask people to stop and think before they call "stack". The word means little, changes little, is often used incorrectly, and contributes to nothing but a toxic blaming ideology that is detrimental to the community and yourself. Don't undervalue yourself, do the best you can do in that situation, and the teams will inevitably change at some point regardless of if you call "stack".
As meat says, if there was not such a low player base, we would not be talking about pub stomping 10 years later..... all in all its unfair to tell anyone how to enjoy the game, if they wanna ruin the game for others and even cause them to stop playing, then that is on them, its been said, and ill say it again, NS2 "needed" better player retention. And i somewhat feel its little to late as fewer and fewer players are returning daily to play,
Not sure what the difference in best destroying lower skilled players and comp players doing the same on a regular server full of players way below a comp player is.
Not sure what the difference in best destroying lower skilled players and comp players doing the same on a regular server full of players way below a comp player is.
Those players are doing it maliciously and are the true problem representing the issue OP made.
Vetinari picked on "pro" players doing different things and who actually balance things out (hence even losing rounds as well as winning).
Those hive stats players were chasing rookie servers to stomp rookie players. We play the highest possible skill servers and only play those people that join those servers, where they still have the choice of playing in an environment more suited to themselves
We gorge, we command, we play against each other. We lose and we win. It's not a consistent stomp that has been painted out of fantasy.
Not sure what the difference in best destroying lower skilled players and comp players doing the same on a regular server full of players way below a comp player is.
You really do not see the difference between guys who only join UWE rookie friendly servers and get 1000+ scores every single game and competitive players like me and wob who join the highest skilled servers? I really thought you were a reasonable guy and I must admit I have been taken by complete surprise reading your following post yesterday:
How does someone know it's a bad decision, you can do the right thing and still get destroyed. If your only experience is a public game your never going to be aware of comp tactics or why a player would move in a certain way through rooms. Why they would stand in a certain place. now your expecting them to do this in quite frankly the short amount of time some players get. That is elitism, I'd suggest reading into the allegory of the cave before judging others.
This was posted shortly after I played on YOClan with you as marines on Kodiak. I hold the south side of the map with another guy for half the game telling him when to move back, when to pressure all the time. Not sure if you maybe played without sound or simply didn't pay attention but don't you think this is exactly the way pub players can get in touch with competitive tactics? Not to mention we lost that round in the end although I had a pretty high KD and the alien team had no premier division player but very nice teamplay and communication (Meatmachine mentioned that after the game and sounded pretty happy about it). Isn't this the kind of game that helps everyone? Mabe the guy holding the south with me learned something, the aliens won the game against the one single prem player "stack" and sounded pretty happy after the game? Noone was complaining that I had a hight KD or was stacking or pubstomping after the game although I think before the round started there was some "marines gonna win, gg" talking in the chat. But I am almost 100% sure some guys here could now go to ns2stats or hive or whatever and look at that round seeing me getting a high KD and top score in my team and complain about prem players pubstomping again...
Not sure what the difference in best destroying lower skilled players and comp players doing the same on a regular server full of players way below a comp player is.
Those players are doing it maliciously and are the true problem representing the issue OP made.
Vetinari picked on "pro" players doing different things and who actually balance things out (hence even losing rounds as well as winning).
Those hive stats players were chasing rookie servers to stomp rookie players. We play the highest possible skill servers and only play those people that join those servers, where they still have the choice of playing in an environment more suited to themselves
We gorge, we command, we play against each other. We lose and we win. It's not a consistent stomp that has been painted out of fantasy.
Just to clarify: I don't have a problem with you guys. I don't have a problem with you guys playing pubs, either. I, though, have a problem with you blatantly disregarding balance in pub play (not always, of course, but it happens) and your way of justifying it.
I'd like to take that offer with you speccing me. Maybe my self-perception is all wrong, and I should change my behavior/attitude, and even if it isn't, I still can learn something.
Not sure who it was but I only got a game in on mineshaft and tram yesterday. Meat definitely wasn't on as I was messaging him on steam.
Personally I'm of the opinion that at this point anything that damages our quite frankly meagre player base is bad. Be it intentional pub stomping or not. I'm not here to paint people as the "bad guy" it's just a shitty situation with the amount of folks playing at the minute as meat has already said.
I guess he meant that the problematic is similar, not that both groups would do it with the same malicious motive.
Stack how I see it is when for example 4 players with 30:4 stats are joining the same team over and over again while playing against people who have stats like 5:12. And if you ask them to split for even teams, they just ignore you. And if you vote random or forced teams, they just join the same team again and continue to be fun busters.
If you two are not doing that stuff, I wonder why you are so on the defense. Just relax and don't let the stack yellers get to you if you know you did whatever you could do to be reasonable. Most of them just feel frustrated. Ns2 doesn't let you fight on even terms. That kinda sucks. So - mess with the best, die like the rest - is ok for games like UT, but you won't get a better skulk by learning ns2 and then you can beat a sg-rine that never misses on your own. Even you guys say that this is futile. Ns2 has just a lot of frustration potential (whereas ns1 had more fun potential IMO). I still think it is a game design problem after hearing you all out.
But this thread is kinda pointless anyways. The people who do this stuff won't change and won't definitely join the discussion and say: "Yes, I was one of them. I am sorry. This thread opened my eyes. I will start being social again."
-> admins should try to balance teams and the damn forced team votes should glue players to a team by IP, so they don't just do whatever they want against the majority votes. (that the votes never balance correctly is another problem).
I guess he meant that the problematic is similar, not that both groups would do it with the same malicious motive.
We are playing at the top of the skill chain in terms of public servers and leave players the chance to go elsewhere.
Rookies play at the bottom of the skill chain in terms of public servers and can not go anywhere else when there's a pub stomper on rookie severs.
We are not malicious in intent. He is.
The defence in this thread is to try and break this WRONG mentality and mistargeting of the abuse to fair and good players. This thread was your platform to bring to attention an issue and this is the chance to interact with your perceived perpetrators. It's an open forum to discuss the problems and issues from both sides of the table (and we're not really from different sides). I hope you can appreciate that these claims of us stacking have been disproven, compromises made, and that in future people will stop thinking that we're the ones bullying people and in fact just playing the game.
We are playing at the top of the skill chain in terms of public servers and leave players the chance to go elsewhere.
Rookies play at the bottom of the skill chain in terms of public servers and can not go anywhere else when there's a pub stomper on rookie severs.
So all of the players in YOclan should just go play in another server? Best way to kill the server.
The skill gap between pub and comp is absolutely massive, probably larger than the gap between regular players and greens.
As others have said - the problem is really just lack of players, but NS2 will soon drop to a point where even the semi-dedicated players move on, things like this don't help.
Soul_RiderMod BeanJoin Date: 2004-06-19Member: 29388Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
I see people quoting the skill rating on servers. You do realise that is just a rating of the skill of player currently on the server? If you have spent anytime watching servers, you will notice the skill level of servers fluctuates hourly, as it is based on who is playing currently. A server goes from a tiny bar to a nearly full bar and back again as players join and leave. Heck, even when joining a server and disconnecting back to the browser after I've finished playing, I can often see a huge swing either way, up or down, depending on what the server was when I joined.
I see people quoting the skill rating on servers. You do realise that is just a rating of the skill of player currently on the server? If you have spent anytime watching servers, you will notice the skill level of servers fluctuates hourly, as it is based on who is playing currently. A server goes from a tiny bar to a nearly full bar and back again as players join and leave. Heck, even when joining a server and disconnecting back to the browser after I've finished playing, I can often see a huge swing either way, up or down, depending on what the server was when I joined.
It is not a good guide to use at all.
The skill rating itself is not that accurate either. If you look at the comp players ratings per game, it can easily double when they play in a pub server instead of a competitive game
We are playing at the top of the skill chain in terms of public servers and leave players the chance to go elsewhere.
Rookies play at the bottom of the skill chain in terms of public servers and can not go anywhere else when there's a pub stomper on rookie severs.
So all of the players in YOclan should just go play in another server? Best way to kill the server.
No because most of the regular players on this server are good and is what attracts us to play on it. Playing rounds against daveodeath, yourself, octosapien, meat machine, modest/keen, and others is entertaining and we get often good games out of it (Read veil the other day where modestmouse beats the team I was playing on)
You're disrespecting these players, undervaluing yourself, and putting us on a pedal stool. Stop with this nonsense of killing servers.
@joshhh I play a large amount of public and enjoy the few games where people focus on playing and focus on winning. I want to help the community understand that we're not the problem, offer solutions, and give help to those that want it. I want to provide a positive impact for the sake of the game. If that means going in roundabouts on a forum thread, so be it. I want to see the problem properly addressed and properly fixed by the whole community, not just let it turn more toxic day by day a la Simpsons movie
I'm surprised we can still get a 5 page thread on this in a couple days. Sad to say but a lot of this I think has become white noise to many of the people this is probably addressing.
So yes, PaLaGi said it all. People need to learn the game. When the overall level of the people playing the game will rise (if ever), then the best players will automatically have a lesser impact (and games will be better for everyone). The amount of players who have NO CLUE what to do in this game is astonishing. And I'm not talking free weekends/rookies. I'm talking about people with 200+, 300+ hours in this game. I don't ask everyone to go premium division, but please there is a limit to how low your level can be after playing a game for some time (I'm trying to say this without sounding mean, because we all know how much some prem div players love to be rude to the noobs they just stomped hardcore in the face with 8+ of them stacking marine).
I would like to say that we, comp players (or should I say div1/prem players), are not evil beings who only wish to go on pub to stack and roll over baddies. If that were our mindset, we would NOT be playing competitive and be at the best level there is in this game at the moment, because to achieve that, you have to do exactly the opposite.
I personally go on pub to train/warm up, and I try to only play on servers with the best overall level (usually servers using ns2+, compmod, not too high population...). I do not wish to stack. I just can't help it if I ALONE by just playing (and not tryharding, usually putting myself in hard situations on purpose to get the most out of this playing session) am just having too much of an impact on the round.
Also we might not all be born equal and all, but none of us (div1/prem) were born with uberskills and uberIntelligence. In NS2, no one is so good that he is unreacheable. The level is not as high as it can be on quake or CS or sc2.
I am saying all that to make you understand that when a div1/prem joins a server, he is not the only responsible for the skill disparity in the game. The difference can only be as great as the difference between him and the level of the other players. Hence the "l2p" argument. It is not elitism. We are not an elite. We are normal people like you. We just take NS2 or games in general more seriously. And there comes a point where we just can't lower ourself or handicap ourself enough to get to the pub level while still effectively achieving the goal we had in mind when we launched NS2 (be it having fun, train, warm up or anything else). When we get to that point, the only parameter left is the level of other players on the server. The better it is, the closer it is to the div1/prem player's, and it will automatically reduce the impact the div1/prem player has on the round.
And as I said, the div1/prem level isn't THAT HIGH that if most pubbers would be willing to learn and apply the basics of the game it wouldn't be enough to drastically reduce this stomping/stacking problem.
I am not asking you to become a robot or to challenge yourself as hard as you may do irl at work or anything.
But please it is not that hard to get decent in pub at this game if you play it enough with a little of constructive self-criticism.
And don't give me the "but I don't want to become better, I don't care I just want to have fun" argument. I am sure the first time you tried ping pong or tennis you understood that it was more fun if you could at least hit the ball and pass the net, even if not to the point of becoming Rafael Nadal. An overall better level means better games, wich seems is what people whining about stacking/pubstomping is looking for too.
If you are not willing to do the minimum to ensure a better game for enveryone, why should I ?
tl;dr : Well f*cking read you noob pubber, your laziness is why you are bad at this game, and why I am proud of belonging to the elite class of NS2 World Champions.
So yes, PaLaGi said it all. People need to learn the game. When the overall level of the people playing the game will rise (if ever), then the best players will automatically have a lesser impact (and games will be better for everyone). The amount of players who have NO CLUE what to do in this game is astonishing. And I'm not talking free weekends/rookies. I'm talking about people with 200+, 300+ hours in this game. I don't ask everyone to go premium division, but please there is a limit to how low your level can be after playing a game for some time (I'm trying to say this without sounding mean, because we all know how much some prem div players love to be rude to the noobs they just stomped hardcore in the face with 8+ of them stacking marine).
I would like to say that we, comp players (or should I say div1/prem players), are not evil beings who only wish to go on pub to stack and roll over baddies. If that were our mindset, we would NOT be playing competitive and be at the best level there is in this game at the moment, because to achieve that, you have to do exactly the opposite.
I personally go on pub to train/warm up, and I try to only play on servers with the best overall level (usually servers using ns2+, compmod, not too high population...). I do not wish to stack. I just can't help it if I ALONE by just playing (and not tryharding, usually putting myself in hard situations on purpose to get the most out of this playing session) am just having too much of an impact on the round.
Also we might not all be born equal and all, but none of us (div1/prem) were born with uberskills and uberIntelligence. In NS2, no one is so good that he is unreacheable. The level is not as high as it can be on quake or CS or sc2.
I am saying all that to make you understand that when a div1/prem joins a server, he is not the only responsible for the skill disparity in the game. The difference can only be as great as the difference between him and the level of the other players. Hence the "l2p" argument. It is not elitism. We are not an elite. We are normal people like you. We just take NS2 or games in general more seriously. And there comes a point where we just can't lower ourself or handicap ourself enough to get to the pub level while still effectively achieving the goal we had in mind when we launched NS2 (be it having fun, train, warm up or anything else). When we get to that point, the only parameter left is the level of other players on the server. The better it is, the closer it is to the div1/prem player's, and it will automatically reduce the impact the div1/prem player has on the round.
And as I said, the div1/prem level isn't THAT HIGH that if most pubbers would be willing to learn and apply the basics of the game it wouldn't be enough to drastically reduce this stomping/stacking problem.
I am not asking you to become a robot or to challenge yourself as hard as you may do irl at work or anything.
But please it is not that hard to get decent in pub at this game if you play it enough with a little of constructive self-criticism.
And don't give me the "but I don't want to become better, I don't care I just want to have fun" argument. I am sure the first time you tried ping pong or tennis you understood that it was more fun if you could at least hit the ball and pass the net, even if not to the point of becoming Rafael Nadal. An overall better level means better games, wich seems is what people whining about stacking/pubstomping is looking for too.
If you are not willing to do the minimum to ensure a better game for enveryone, why should I ?
tl;dr : Well f*cking read you noob pubber, your laziness is why you are bad at this game, and why I am proud of belonging the elite class of NS2 World Champions.
I've hit my skill limit. I've played 400 hours or so and I'm pretty good at the planning and commanding but just above average at everything else.
My ideal game is one where it lasts about 30 minutes, there is a bit of back and forth and one team wins after a dedicated push. It's fun, I have a few laughs. I'm not warming up for anything, this is my free time.
What happens in most games is a base is rushed, the game is over at four minutes and I'm sat in my chair pondering why I could even be bothered to load up the game.
Not at one point do I feel the outcome of the game is down to me being shit, how the hell do you expect me to get better when I can't even get a decent game in.
At the point when an excellent player joins the game and kills me constantly, I don't feel like it's my fault, none of the blame hangs over my head I just quit and play something else.
The environment of the game at the moment will never encourage people to play more and get better, it's just going to force people to leave. The blame for this isn't one sided, crappy players maybe could do with learning how to play, but you need to stop believing you are infallible because you like to 'warm up' by ruining the enjoyment of others. It's as simple as that.
Is this partly down to the current balance of the game allowing a single player to shine so bright? No idea. What I do know is that it's only going to take a few more games with horrendously stacked teams for me to go looking elsewhere.
tl;dr : In a short amount of time there won't be any servers for you to warm up on.
@king_yo lets assume you are 100% correct in everything you said.
Do you think its in any way realistic that the average skill level of a pubber is going to increase because of anything you or I, or anyone else says on this forum?
The evidence thus far suggests its just not going to happen. Which leaves us absolutely no better off than when this thread started.
I am one of the few people so far in this thread that has actually proposed a solution that is any way realistic and achievable. Instead of just trying to reallocate blame or shift responsibility. So far I have had one person actually comment on it.
Let me say that I have no idea if my proposed solution would work, if it would be tolerated etc, however this thread is completely devoid of people actually suggesting things that could actually work. I don't feel anyone is justified in saying things like "people need to learn to play" while knowing that there that just plainly isn't going to happen without some kind of an intervention....
I am one of the few people so far in this thread that has actually proposed a solution that is any way realistic and achievable. Instead of just trying to reallocate blame or shift responsibility. So far I have had one person actually comment on it.
Your idea has been discussed several times on this forum already and most people didn't like the idea as far as I remember.
And why do you think you are the only one trying to find a solution here? All the high level comp player who commented in this thread seem to have the opinion that the bad overall understanding of the game and the missing willingness to improve are an importand factor that leads to bad games and people getting stomped. So we (particulary wob) offered help in many different ways for players who actually want to improve their game, because we believe it will lead to a better games in the end of the day and some guys already indicated interest. Don't you think this is a much better approach to create a better experience with this game for everyone than just blaming comp players and not allowing them to play?
I honestly recon i havent read everything in this thread ( stopped at page 3 ), i would to pinpoint some stuff that hasnt been focused on:
* There always will be stacking when 2 friends want to play together, and nothing we can do can change that. I play every Monday with 2 friends, and, yes, we stack teams to play together. Last night was really brutal stomps, but that wasn't the point for us.
* There is a solution to the all mighty call of "stack!!!11" ( which is more and more common in Yo Clan games btw ), which is team captain. Each team captain choose one player in turn. Team captain can be chosen randomly from a team of regular. Yo Clan is a prime target for an experiment like this ( wink wink MeatMachine ), as we pretty much know each other for a long time.
I've hit my skill limit. I've played 400 hours or so and I'm pretty good at the planning and commanding but just above average at everything else.
My ideal game is one where it lasts about 30 minutes, there is a bit of back and forth and one team wins after a dedicated push. It's fun, I have a few laughs. I'm not warming up for anything, this is my free time.
What happens in most games is a base is rushed, the game is over at four minutes and I'm sat in my chair pondering why I could even be bothered to load up the game.
Not at one point do I feel the outcome of the game is down to me being shit, how the hell do you expect me to get better when I can't even get a decent game in.
At the point when an excellent player joins the game and kills me constantly, I don't feel like it's my fault, none of the blame hangs over my head I just quit and play something else.
The environment of the game at the moment will never encourage people to play more and get better, it's just going to force people to leave. The blame for this isn't one sided, crappy players maybe could do with learning how to play, but you need to stop believing you are infallible because you like to 'warm up' by ruining the enjoyment of others. It's as simple as that.
Is this partly down to the current balance of the game allowing a single player to shine so bright? No idea. What I do know is that it's only going to take a few more games with horrendously stacked teams for me to go looking elsewhere.
tl;dr : In a short amount of time there won't be any servers for you to warm up on.
You look like you are exactly what this game is missing the most, a decent player. As I said, I don't expect you to push yourself over your limit during your free time if you don't want to. Just the minimum to have a decent game. You will still get killed a good amount of time by an excellent player. It's expected, if you are the only decent player around. But if you are enough you are going to overcome this excellent player, go on with your game and it will be more enjoyable for everyone.
But apparently it's not happening, and it's not your fault, and you get frustrated. Is it the excellent player's fault ? Can you blame him for being more dedicated on a game on his free time than you ? I don't think so.
The blame for this isn't one sided, crappy players maybe could do with learning how to play, but you need to stop believing you are infallible because you like to 'warm up' by ruining the enjoyment of others. It's as simple as that.
Reread my post. I do NOT like that. I do not want to join a server just to pwn some noobs. I am doing what I can from my side to avoid this situation. But it still happens. I am not happy about it. It frustrate me too that I can't get a decent game on pub too. But there is only so much I can do about it. I feel like I do my part. I have come to a point where it's not on me anymore, even if it may look like I am the obvious problem because I am the one on top of the scoreboard. Others need to look at themselves too. Please stop thinking that the good players are the only problem and we actually like the situation. WE DO NOT. If we had the choice, we would avoid the bad players and let them play each other alone and enjoy themselves. But we don't have the choice. It's as simple as that.
@king_yo lets assume you are 100% correct in everything you said.
Do you think its in any way realistic that the average skill level of a pubber is going to increase because of anything you or I, or anyone else says on this forum?
The evidence thus far suggests its just not going to happen. Which leaves us absolutely no better off than when this thread started.
I am one of the few people so far in this thread that has actually proposed a solution that is any way realistic and achievable. Instead of just trying to reallocate blame or shift responsibility. So far I have had one person actually comment on it.
Let me say that I have no idea if my proposed solution would work, if it would be tolerated etc, however this thread is completely devoid of people actually suggesting things that could actually work. I don't feel anyone is justified in saying things like "people need to learn to play" while knowing that there that just plainly isn't going to happen without some kind of an intervention....
No it probably won't make a difference, but is whining about too good players gonna do anything either ?
If it can at least change the way some people look at us the evil good players, or the way they look at themselves, then it's already something.
I don't have a miracle solution, but I least I am stating the problem, and it's not one sided, and I know how it could be dealt with. But it's not in my hand. I can't learn the game for others. If people needs an intervention to learn the game, well what can you do about it ?
Maybe your thing would work, I don't know. It might work to balance a game. If you want to try it, go ahead, I encourage you. But it still would just be a band aid fix. But I can't be bothered to do the things for others. My free time is precious too. Just stop pointing at me for being the problem when in reality I am not.
@Anzestral You absolutely can make a positive contribution by helping players to improve, I agree with what you and wob want to do. We are not at all in disagreement there.
It has been established that its skill disparity that causes the problem, and anything that reduces that will ease the problem. It can be tackled many ways, we can try and improve the overall skill level of newer players so that the pro players are not so far out of reach. The game could have its gameplay modified so that its less dependent on skill, although I realise nobody wants this to turn into call of duty.
You want to help rookies improve, and thats great. However there are a great number of people out there who don't want too for a whole range of reasons, they just want to play a game and have fun. I am not satisfied that they are unjustified in wanting to do this, I think it should be possible for these people to play the game and have fun. I just don't see them all lining up for a training session.
I firmly believe people are leaving because they find getting completely owned over and over tiresome. Perhaps we should just let these people leave as they are not invested enough in improving so that they can put up a fight. However I also want UWE to be successful, and I want to see an NS3 one day. I think in business terms they need the more casual audience. People who leave NS2 out of frustration will be less likely to buy NS3 (if it ever happens).
1. Its clear we can't have players at the top of their game playing in the same server as casual players which simply get dominated. No you cannot teach them to enjoy getting owned over and over.
2. As you have found out we don't have a large enough player base for pro players to keep to themselves.
How do you realistically have both pro players and casual players in the same server together without the casual players becoming disheartened? At best they will find another server, at worse they leave the game entirely.
The idea that I proposed is most likely absolutely rubbish, I am in no way emotionally attached to it.
I am still looking for a solution to the problem that would stop a single pro player (with good or bad intentions) emptying my servers, and I mean a solution that would work say... tomorrow.. A mass player base education program would likely require massive buy in by UWE, special events, a new offline training system, a realistic skill tracking system etc. After all that it might not even work, and I don't see it happening any faster than 6 months..
I have not ruled out that this is just what happens to a game when its player base starts to dwindle, I'm not quite ready to give up yet.
@king_yo I understand what you are trying to achieve here now and I think I agree with you.
If it makes any difference I don't blame the pro players for this problem. Which is why I haven't kicked anyone from any of my servers for being so overpowering. If I were a pro player I would likely not be acting any differently at all.
The problem of huge skill disparity is highlighted to the point of concern whenever a pro player joins yes, but that isn't their fault. Sure they can be the symptom of the problem, but its clear to me at least that there is no malicious intent.
I hope that goes some way to alleviating your concern.
Comments
This is my serverbroweser, trying to enter a game right now, it includes the server you reffered to in your post.
I find 7 white and 11 green servers.
3 of the top 5 servers (ordered by skill) are green (how can this even happen if white/green has ANY meaning and good players are not allowed to play on green servers?).
5 of the 7 white servers have pings above 150.
3 of them are shown in my list although they are full because of the dumb reserverd slots...
What do you reccoment? Wich server should I join here?
Or do you really want me to not play the game at all?
Btw, YOCLan rookie friendly now?
You can practise your gorge
That YOclan server is their 2nd server with ns2+ on. It's rookie friendly for reasons unbeknown to me.
Also, 21:2 and 23:4 is hardly pubstomping. 34:1 is pushing it but you never know the circumstances. As I mentioned in my previous post, I was helping a new-ish commander and fading. Anzestral's not a douchebag. I'm sure he's helped plenty in pubs. Hes helped me with Marine and fade play as well during a practice or two. Good luck trying to killing him with the ping difference though. Lol
Pointless thread is pointless. People will be people. The game seemingly was made for everyone of equal skill.
I didnt name & shame anyone in my post.
All i wanted to say is:
There are empty med to high skill servers while the med-high skill players are on low skill servers.
And as you have high skilled pub players also this isnt a "pro" clanplayers problem only.
Can i name & shame myself?
I play on low skill servers also sometimes. Most of the time i try to stack against pub stars but sometimes i need some relaxed rounds where i dont care about how stacked a round is.
If you lose one round after another i need these rounds to motivate me.
I play this game around 3,5 years now and 1,5 years after the release im tired to tell the people to leave the base @ roundstart.
And im tired of teaching rookies, i have done this for around 1 year.
But after telling the same again and again like an mantra in every round to rookies with zero effect i let them play and let them learn for themself.
Problem wouldn't nearly be as bad if it weren't for the awful player retention. At least people who stay, learn and get better.
YO used to be considerably higher in average skill level, but the past few months I can really identify with what DePara is saying. It's like the last green wave washed away all the players who cba to teach, and it's still here.
Every single game lately is a huge freaking effort to steer these players in the right direction (mostly not green named, but very much the green players). I played at least 12 hours this weekend, and had perhaps 2-3 games that didnt feel like i was babysitting the entire team, save for a couple.
What am I even doing in this game? Am I just here to attempt to teach people who will ultimately lose interest before learning the most basic of engagement mechanics?
For hours and hours every day.
It feels more like a job than recreation.
And after all that, as server admin I'm put in the incredibly uncomfortable position of having the 9 other players on my team complain that they have no chance against the stack that inevitably happens when players from div 1 join and want to play a bit of pub.
I do not feel at all comfortable kicking players from a non-rookie server because they are too good, nor do I enjoy being bitched at by a team of people every time it happens.
All I can do is 'force even' as much as possible and try as much as I can to counter the stack (basically go onos so the marines stop shooting my floor-running buddies).
And fuck me, is it exhausting to do.
Ahem. @MoFo brought some good points, there is just nothing we, casual players, can do against stack. NO self respecting game puts so much power in hands of a player.
That said, me and reminder of my friends who still play (well 1 guy basically) evade YOClan server like a plague since earliest of times. Not that stacking is exclusive on it but is just plain obvious and brutal and met with "*hurrrrrr* my friends'n me ltp!!!1" elitist shit or just awkward silence followed by 2 min game.
Whoosh.
No. 1 player on hive stats played pretty much exclusively on the UWE rookie friendly servers. He stomped rookies as an "advanced" player (not competitive or "pro"). He was getting in the 1000s point range. That is a stomp. Those are the the players we should be discussing in this thread, NOT the legitimate "pros" who we've seen through ns2stats show less of a stomp and through anecdotes of other players who defend us.
I'm just asking everyone to stop throwing their fingers around at an easily identifiable part of the community (badges, clan tags, names, scores) who legitimately aren't playing maliciously, and look for the real problems.
We join a server, can't identify who's good/bad for the first round and join.
2nd round+ the "advanced" players stack us when we're often first to join a team.
Rookie stack (this is the opposite side of the same coin as "advanced" players stacking)
New commanders
Psychological disadvantage (Giving up before the game starts)
I've just realised that I can sit in ready room and be the last person to join a team, asking people what they think is the best side for me to go on. I'm now going to start doing this, although I'll probably stop as soon as the conceited arrogance flame starts coming in.
I will offer again. I want to help people get better, so if you want any advice, if you want to play with/against me, if you want me to spec you, I will help. I'd much much much rather spend my time helping people than spend my time getting abused.
If you don't want to take this offer up for whatever reason, that's ok. I don't expect people to set aside extra time to improve themselves. I just want to put this out on the table to help narrow skill disparities across the board, which is undeniably one of the biggest problems in public.
But I must ask people to stop and think before they call "stack". The word means little, changes little, is often used incorrectly, and contributes to nothing but a toxic blaming ideology that is detrimental to the community and yourself. Don't undervalue yourself, do the best you can do in that situation, and the teams will inevitably change at some point regardless of if you call "stack".
Those players are doing it maliciously and are the true problem representing the issue OP made.
Vetinari picked on "pro" players doing different things and who actually balance things out (hence even losing rounds as well as winning).
Those hive stats players were chasing rookie servers to stomp rookie players. We play the highest possible skill servers and only play those people that join those servers, where they still have the choice of playing in an environment more suited to themselves
We gorge, we command, we play against each other. We lose and we win. It's not a consistent stomp that has been painted out of fantasy.
You really do not see the difference between guys who only join UWE rookie friendly servers and get 1000+ scores every single game and competitive players like me and wob who join the highest skilled servers? I really thought you were a reasonable guy and I must admit I have been taken by complete surprise reading your following post yesterday:
This was posted shortly after I played on YOClan with you as marines on Kodiak. I hold the south side of the map with another guy for half the game telling him when to move back, when to pressure all the time. Not sure if you maybe played without sound or simply didn't pay attention but don't you think this is exactly the way pub players can get in touch with competitive tactics? Not to mention we lost that round in the end although I had a pretty high KD and the alien team had no premier division player but very nice teamplay and communication (Meatmachine mentioned that after the game and sounded pretty happy about it). Isn't this the kind of game that helps everyone? Mabe the guy holding the south with me learned something, the aliens won the game against the one single prem player "stack" and sounded pretty happy after the game? Noone was complaining that I had a hight KD or was stacking or pubstomping after the game although I think before the round started there was some "marines gonna win, gg" talking in the chat. But I am almost 100% sure some guys here could now go to ns2stats or hive or whatever and look at that round seeing me getting a high KD and top score in my team and complain about prem players pubstomping again...
Just to clarify: I don't have a problem with you guys. I don't have a problem with you guys playing pubs, either. I, though, have a problem with you blatantly disregarding balance in pub play (not always, of course, but it happens) and your way of justifying it.
I'd like to take that offer with you speccing me. Maybe my self-perception is all wrong, and I should change my behavior/attitude, and even if it isn't, I still can learn something.
Personally I'm of the opinion that at this point anything that damages our quite frankly meagre player base is bad. Be it intentional pub stomping or not. I'm not here to paint people as the "bad guy" it's just a shitty situation with the amount of folks playing at the minute as meat has already said.
Stack how I see it is when for example 4 players with 30:4 stats are joining the same team over and over again while playing against people who have stats like 5:12. And if you ask them to split for even teams, they just ignore you. And if you vote random or forced teams, they just join the same team again and continue to be fun busters.
If you two are not doing that stuff, I wonder why you are so on the defense. Just relax and don't let the stack yellers get to you if you know you did whatever you could do to be reasonable. Most of them just feel frustrated. Ns2 doesn't let you fight on even terms. That kinda sucks. So - mess with the best, die like the rest - is ok for games like UT, but you won't get a better skulk by learning ns2 and then you can beat a sg-rine that never misses on your own. Even you guys say that this is futile. Ns2 has just a lot of frustration potential (whereas ns1 had more fun potential IMO). I still think it is a game design problem after hearing you all out.
But this thread is kinda pointless anyways. The people who do this stuff won't change and won't definitely join the discussion and say: "Yes, I was one of them. I am sorry. This thread opened my eyes. I will start being social again."
-> admins should try to balance teams and the damn forced team votes should glue players to a team by IP, so they don't just do whatever they want against the majority votes. (that the votes never balance correctly is another problem).
We are playing at the top of the skill chain in terms of public servers and leave players the chance to go elsewhere.
Rookies play at the bottom of the skill chain in terms of public servers and can not go anywhere else when there's a pub stomper on rookie severs.
We are not malicious in intent. He is.
The defence in this thread is to try and break this WRONG mentality and mistargeting of the abuse to fair and good players. This thread was your platform to bring to attention an issue and this is the chance to interact with your perceived perpetrators. It's an open forum to discuss the problems and issues from both sides of the table (and we're not really from different sides). I hope you can appreciate that these claims of us stacking have been disproven, compromises made, and that in future people will stop thinking that we're the ones bullying people and in fact just playing the game.
So all of the players in YOclan should just go play in another server? Best way to kill the server.
The skill gap between pub and comp is absolutely massive, probably larger than the gap between regular players and greens.
As others have said - the problem is really just lack of players, but NS2 will soon drop to a point where even the semi-dedicated players move on, things like this don't help.
It is not a good guide to use at all.
The skill rating itself is not that accurate either. If you look at the comp players ratings per game, it can easily double when they play in a pub server instead of a competitive game
You're disrespecting these players, undervaluing yourself, and putting us on a pedal stool. Stop with this nonsense of killing servers.
@joshhh I play a large amount of public and enjoy the few games where people focus on playing and focus on winning. I want to help the community understand that we're not the problem, offer solutions, and give help to those that want it. I want to provide a positive impact for the sake of the game. If that means going in roundabouts on a forum thread, so be it. I want to see the problem properly addressed and properly fixed by the whole community, not just let it turn more toxic day by day a la Simpsons movie
I would like to say that we, comp players (or should I say div1/prem players), are not evil beings who only wish to go on pub to stack and roll over baddies. If that were our mindset, we would NOT be playing competitive and be at the best level there is in this game at the moment, because to achieve that, you have to do exactly the opposite.
I personally go on pub to train/warm up, and I try to only play on servers with the best overall level (usually servers using ns2+, compmod, not too high population...). I do not wish to stack. I just can't help it if I ALONE by just playing (and not tryharding, usually putting myself in hard situations on purpose to get the most out of this playing session) am just having too much of an impact on the round.
Also we might not all be born equal and all, but none of us (div1/prem) were born with uberskills and uberIntelligence. In NS2, no one is so good that he is unreacheable. The level is not as high as it can be on quake or CS or sc2.
I am saying all that to make you understand that when a div1/prem joins a server, he is not the only responsible for the skill disparity in the game. The difference can only be as great as the difference between him and the level of the other players. Hence the "l2p" argument. It is not elitism. We are not an elite. We are normal people like you. We just take NS2 or games in general more seriously. And there comes a point where we just can't lower ourself or handicap ourself enough to get to the pub level while still effectively achieving the goal we had in mind when we launched NS2 (be it having fun, train, warm up or anything else). When we get to that point, the only parameter left is the level of other players on the server. The better it is, the closer it is to the div1/prem player's, and it will automatically reduce the impact the div1/prem player has on the round.
And as I said, the div1/prem level isn't THAT HIGH that if most pubbers would be willing to learn and apply the basics of the game it wouldn't be enough to drastically reduce this stomping/stacking problem.
I am not asking you to become a robot or to challenge yourself as hard as you may do irl at work or anything.
But please it is not that hard to get decent in pub at this game if you play it enough with a little of constructive self-criticism.
And don't give me the "but I don't want to become better, I don't care I just want to have fun" argument. I am sure the first time you tried ping pong or tennis you understood that it was more fun if you could at least hit the ball and pass the net, even if not to the point of becoming Rafael Nadal. An overall better level means better games, wich seems is what people whining about stacking/pubstomping is looking for too.
If you are not willing to do the minimum to ensure a better game for enveryone, why should I ?
tl;dr : Well f*cking read you noob pubber, your laziness is why you are bad at this game, and why I am proud of belonging to the elite class of NS2 World Champions.
I've hit my skill limit. I've played 400 hours or so and I'm pretty good at the planning and commanding but just above average at everything else.
My ideal game is one where it lasts about 30 minutes, there is a bit of back and forth and one team wins after a dedicated push. It's fun, I have a few laughs. I'm not warming up for anything, this is my free time.
What happens in most games is a base is rushed, the game is over at four minutes and I'm sat in my chair pondering why I could even be bothered to load up the game.
Not at one point do I feel the outcome of the game is down to me being shit, how the hell do you expect me to get better when I can't even get a decent game in.
At the point when an excellent player joins the game and kills me constantly, I don't feel like it's my fault, none of the blame hangs over my head I just quit and play something else.
The environment of the game at the moment will never encourage people to play more and get better, it's just going to force people to leave. The blame for this isn't one sided, crappy players maybe could do with learning how to play, but you need to stop believing you are infallible because you like to 'warm up' by ruining the enjoyment of others. It's as simple as that.
Is this partly down to the current balance of the game allowing a single player to shine so bright? No idea. What I do know is that it's only going to take a few more games with horrendously stacked teams for me to go looking elsewhere.
tl;dr : In a short amount of time there won't be any servers for you to warm up on.
Do you think its in any way realistic that the average skill level of a pubber is going to increase because of anything you or I, or anyone else says on this forum?
The evidence thus far suggests its just not going to happen. Which leaves us absolutely no better off than when this thread started.
I am one of the few people so far in this thread that has actually proposed a solution that is any way realistic and achievable. Instead of just trying to reallocate blame or shift responsibility. So far I have had one person actually comment on it.
Let me say that I have no idea if my proposed solution would work, if it would be tolerated etc, however this thread is completely devoid of people actually suggesting things that could actually work. I don't feel anyone is justified in saying things like "people need to learn to play" while knowing that there that just plainly isn't going to happen without some kind of an intervention....
Your idea has been discussed several times on this forum already and most people didn't like the idea as far as I remember.
And why do you think you are the only one trying to find a solution here? All the high level comp player who commented in this thread seem to have the opinion that the bad overall understanding of the game and the missing willingness to improve are an importand factor that leads to bad games and people getting stomped. So we (particulary wob) offered help in many different ways for players who actually want to improve their game, because we believe it will lead to a better games in the end of the day and some guys already indicated interest. Don't you think this is a much better approach to create a better experience with this game for everyone than just blaming comp players and not allowing them to play?
* There always will be stacking when 2 friends want to play together, and nothing we can do can change that. I play every Monday with 2 friends, and, yes, we stack teams to play together. Last night was really brutal stomps, but that wasn't the point for us.
* There is a solution to the all mighty call of "stack!!!11" ( which is more and more common in Yo Clan games btw ), which is team captain. Each team captain choose one player in turn. Team captain can be chosen randomly from a team of regular. Yo Clan is a prime target for an experiment like this ( wink wink MeatMachine ), as we pretty much know each other for a long time.
You look like you are exactly what this game is missing the most, a decent player. As I said, I don't expect you to push yourself over your limit during your free time if you don't want to. Just the minimum to have a decent game. You will still get killed a good amount of time by an excellent player. It's expected, if you are the only decent player around. But if you are enough you are going to overcome this excellent player, go on with your game and it will be more enjoyable for everyone.
But apparently it's not happening, and it's not your fault, and you get frustrated. Is it the excellent player's fault ? Can you blame him for being more dedicated on a game on his free time than you ? I don't think so.
Reread my post. I do NOT like that. I do not want to join a server just to pwn some noobs. I am doing what I can from my side to avoid this situation. But it still happens. I am not happy about it. It frustrate me too that I can't get a decent game on pub too. But there is only so much I can do about it. I feel like I do my part. I have come to a point where it's not on me anymore, even if it may look like I am the obvious problem because I am the one on top of the scoreboard. Others need to look at themselves too. Please stop thinking that the good players are the only problem and we actually like the situation. WE DO NOT. If we had the choice, we would avoid the bad players and let them play each other alone and enjoy themselves. But we don't have the choice. It's as simple as that.
No it probably won't make a difference, but is whining about too good players gonna do anything either ?
If it can at least change the way some people look at us the evil good players, or the way they look at themselves, then it's already something.
I don't have a miracle solution, but I least I am stating the problem, and it's not one sided, and I know how it could be dealt with. But it's not in my hand. I can't learn the game for others. If people needs an intervention to learn the game, well what can you do about it ?
Maybe your thing would work, I don't know. It might work to balance a game. If you want to try it, go ahead, I encourage you. But it still would just be a band aid fix. But I can't be bothered to do the things for others. My free time is precious too. Just stop pointing at me for being the problem when in reality I am not.
It has been established that its skill disparity that causes the problem, and anything that reduces that will ease the problem. It can be tackled many ways, we can try and improve the overall skill level of newer players so that the pro players are not so far out of reach. The game could have its gameplay modified so that its less dependent on skill, although I realise nobody wants this to turn into call of duty.
You want to help rookies improve, and thats great. However there are a great number of people out there who don't want too for a whole range of reasons, they just want to play a game and have fun. I am not satisfied that they are unjustified in wanting to do this, I think it should be possible for these people to play the game and have fun. I just don't see them all lining up for a training session.
I firmly believe people are leaving because they find getting completely owned over and over tiresome. Perhaps we should just let these people leave as they are not invested enough in improving so that they can put up a fight. However I also want UWE to be successful, and I want to see an NS3 one day. I think in business terms they need the more casual audience. People who leave NS2 out of frustration will be less likely to buy NS3 (if it ever happens).
1. Its clear we can't have players at the top of their game playing in the same server as casual players which simply get dominated. No you cannot teach them to enjoy getting owned over and over.
2. As you have found out we don't have a large enough player base for pro players to keep to themselves.
How do you realistically have both pro players and casual players in the same server together without the casual players becoming disheartened? At best they will find another server, at worse they leave the game entirely.
The idea that I proposed is most likely absolutely rubbish, I am in no way emotionally attached to it.
I am still looking for a solution to the problem that would stop a single pro player (with good or bad intentions) emptying my servers, and I mean a solution that would work say... tomorrow.. A mass player base education program would likely require massive buy in by UWE, special events, a new offline training system, a realistic skill tracking system etc. After all that it might not even work, and I don't see it happening any faster than 6 months..
I have not ruled out that this is just what happens to a game when its player base starts to dwindle, I'm not quite ready to give up yet.
If it makes any difference I don't blame the pro players for this problem. Which is why I haven't kicked anyone from any of my servers for being so overpowering. If I were a pro player I would likely not be acting any differently at all.
The problem of huge skill disparity is highlighted to the point of concern whenever a pro player joins yes, but that isn't their fault. Sure they can be the symptom of the problem, but its clear to me at least that there is no malicious intent.
I hope that goes some way to alleviating your concern.