Clearly this feature isn't aimed towards veteran/competitive players, but rather the new folks, in order to give them a better understanding of damage feedback, right? The side effect is that it has a bigger impact than foreseen, as not only it makes things easier to track, but it also provides people with vital information that otherwise wouldn't be available unless communicated (teamwork).
So maybe it wouldn't be a bad idea to only enable this feature on rookie-only servers, to get them into the swing of things easier, and to not upset the balance of higher level gameplay?
So maybe it wouldn't be a bad idea to only enable this feature on rookie-only servers, to get them into the swing of things easier, and to not upset the balance of higher level gameplay?
We've already discussed that. It's not good to have different versions.
update: Acceptable solution is to add a death cam that will be showing who killed you and the remaining HP. The impact is almost the same as the current commander view (just there will be more eyes), but this thing will be directly giving the idea of how much damage you're dealing.
So maybe it wouldn't be a bad idea to only enable this feature on rookie-only servers, to get them into the swing of things easier, and to not upset the balance of higher level gameplay?
We've already discussed that. It's not good to have different versions.
update: Acceptable solution is to add a death cam that will be showing the remaining HP. The effect is almost the same as the current commander view (just there will be more eyes), but this thing will be directly giving the idea of how much damage you're dealing.
Yes, it's not good to have different versions, but it's also not good to impose a thing like this in the first place. Yet it was, and now we're trying to figure out what to do with it. NS1 did fine without HP bars, and it was never really needed in NS2 imo, but if they're adamant about adding it, a compromise such as enabling it on rookie-only servers would be preferable.
I can only imagine how much this helps out the high level players.. My accuracy on marine has definitely gone up and its normally stupidly low (7-10%) now I'm getting 15% and up... What's it like for those who dominate with 25-30% acc?
I also tried it with Lerk today and it felt pretty much exactly like having aura only without seeing through walls.. When fighting multiple marines it was stupidly easy to keep track of the one i had injured...
I don't think I'll be able to play this game comfortably until healthbars are removed.
Using NS2+ you can turn on serverside blood. This will remove the healthbars. It is a sort of work around.
I agree with pelagir. I don't foresee the healthbars being removed.
Yes but other players still have it. If UWE refuses to remove this, then mods to disable it will most certainly come up (and likely be widespread) and will just cause confusion for new players. Not to mention it would also end up dividing the player base.
Experienced players generally "know" how much HP an alien has left, if you put 70-80 into a skulk, you know he's nearly done for. If you put 150 into a lerk, you know he won't be coming back to re-engage you. Veterans already have this information when they play because they inherently know it.
By adding a small health bar element when you damage something, we're attempting to give everyone (especially newer players) this same sense of how much damage you've actually done. It's one part in our goal to increasing game feedback during combat (like the ragdoll change) - We have more planned for this (sounds, directional damage feedback).
With everything we do, it's not set in stone. We'll be watching for feedback on this.
Well someone in a pub just said it helps them on aliens too. So it could help a lerk for example almost always have aura in a sense. So yeah, it could help both sides and improve people's accuracy. The problem is, it might make good shooters even better cause they will just go after the life form they know they can kill. It will help all players though, so maybe the trade off is worth it. It does feel like a hack though when it's on. I guess this was one way to make it easier on people to play this game, this or increasing the size of the hitbox. I do understand the reasoning behind why they did this, it's very difficult to aim well in this game. It's also difficult to know what to focus on with a lot of craziness moving around you.
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
Personally I'd much rather have the hit boxes enlarged.
I think that improves accessibility and the frustration for all ranges of skill except the highest.
So maybe it wouldn't be a bad idea to only enable this feature on rookie-only servers, to get them into the swing of things easier, and to not upset the balance of higher level gameplay?
We've already discussed that. It's not good to have different versions.
Why there is rookie only servers? If the version/game play is the same.
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
@lhooq to separate by skill, not gameplay, in order to create a safe learning environment before being stomped by vets with thousands of hours under their belt.
This is a preemptive post. Most of you have already seen me post some version of this already, but after IronHorse's comment I know someone is thinking it. So I am preemptively posting the response.
ROOKIES DO NOT NEED VETERANS TO TEACH THEM! Coaching and mentor programs have been tried before and have not had any success. This alone is enough to prove that veterans trying to teach rookies has little or no effect on player retention.
Coaching/mentoring would be unwanted by the majority of rookies. I know this because it already is. Go on any pub server with any amount of rookies and you will have a hard time finding even one that is willing to actually listen to you. These players only play the game for 2 hours and quit forever regardless of any training.
The people who would benefit the most from coaching are more intermediate players who are willing to seek it out already.
Coaching, mentoring, or whatever you want to call it is just not worth any time or effort.
Rookies really do not need veterans to teach them. If you do not believe me watch the videos in this spoiler.
These guys have never played ns2.
These guys had some minor practice before hand but almost all of them are total rookies.
This is a full round on a rookie only server. http://www.twitch.tv/calego/v/38082162
In those videos you will see that rookies do indeed learn the game on their very own. Sure, they do not play the way we veterans expect them to but that is not the point. Rookies are very new to the game and they do not know what things are. Let them learn at their own pace so that they are more willing to continue learning when they get to regular servers.
So maybe it wouldn't be a bad idea to only enable this feature on rookie-only servers, to get them into the swing of things easier, and to not upset the balance of higher level gameplay?
We've already discussed that. It's not good to have different versions.
Why there is rookie only servers? If the version/game play is the same.
rookies need somewhere safe from cheaters, no matter how bae she is.
Personally I can see why they were added, as it can lower frustration upon death for new players and is great feedback to know that they are actually making a difference (I.e. no more hackusations due to invulnrible fades, onos, and lerks, etc.). There were a few engagements where I blackbarred lifeform that the bar confirmed my thoughts that the lifeform was close to death.
However, it really feels like a quasi aimbot, as tracking skulks in packs is amazingly easy as the one your damaging has healthbars above it. As such, you can track them the whole way in until they are dead after which you move to the next one, etc. Close quarters engagements are also much easier to track because their is a flying neon bar above the lifeform.
If you want to keep them perhapse do some sort of middle ground where you de-link the bars and the targets location (I.e. have it displayed somewhere else on the HUD for Marines, say in an "alien health scanner" box or something, maybe have a few options for locations on the HUD as well). That way it doesn't clutter the screen, has the intended rookie effect, and prevents the tracking/aiming improvements.
Personally I can see why they were added, as it can lower frustration upon death for new players and is great feedback to know that they are actually making a difference (I.e. no more hackusations due to invulnrible fades, onos, and lerks, etc.).
Personally I can see why they were added, as it can lower frustration upon death for new players and is great feedback to know that they are actually making a difference (I.e. no more hackusations due to invulnrible fades, onos, and lerks, etc.).
Matso had already started on an early version of this, but it introduced too many issues and was going to take a long time to get it working smoothly. I don't think there's anyone on the team that wouldn't love to see this in the game, but unfortunately we have to be realistic about time constraints and stuff. It might get revisited if the team gets their contracts extended for phase 3.
Matso had already started on an early version of this, but it introduced too many issues and was going to take a long time to get it working smoothly. I don't think there's anyone on the team that wouldn't love to see this in the game, but unfortunately we have to be realistic about time constraints and stuff. It might get revisited if the team gets their contracts extended for phase 3.
If the half-assed healthbars are doable, the similar level killcam is as easy as one of the GUI mods.
Do it like in Dota: an image of the enemy on the HUD. 80% of the info (including beloved HP level, excluding the positional info that healthbars don't give anyways) you can put there.
A killcam would remove pretty much all the problems with the health bar...
You would no longer know exactly how much health a Marine/Alien has going into a fight... Plus you wouldn't have the giant red bar to aid so much in keeping track of your target.
A killcam would remove pretty much all the problems with the health bar...
You would no longer know exactly how much health a Marine/Alien has going into a fight... Plus you wouldn't have the giant red bar to aid so much in keeping track of your target.
How is a killcam going to have the same impact they wanted? It might help people have better awareness, but they could be getting hit by 3 targets at once or look at themselves missing a skulk in front of them as they die. I feel like a killcam helps people understand why they died so they don't feel like magic just happened, but it may not have much impact on people's aim or focus in fights which is what they probably wanted.
They could consider making the health bars change into hp left indicators that didn't make it as easy to track. Or they could increase the size of the hit boxes or do both
I don't feel like looking it up right now but I'm pretty sure they said their goal with this change was to help stop those wtf moments caused by rookies not knowing how much hp a Fade has left after a fight, or not knowing how they died (like thinking a Skulk got a one hit kill when he bit them 3 times)
I don't believe they mentioned anything about trying to help Rookies aim or tracking during fights.. And if that's the case and their goal was to help rookies with their aim/tracking then again it should be something that is only on a rookie server. Simply because having such aim/tracking help (in addition to knowing the hp of your target BEFORE the fight) will help high skill veterans a LOT more than it will help casuals or rookies...
I could be wrong, but yeah.. A killcam would help rookies understand how close they got to getting the kill, while helping them see how the veteran got the kill on them (so they might learn something) yet without giving aim/tracking assistance...
Seems like a no brainer to me... The longer we have these hp bars the more Marine players will like them and want them to stay (and why not, they make things a LOT easier on Marine)
Guys, it is a matter of time allocation. Everybody wants a killcam. It is just too long a project given the time the PDT has been given to work on NS2. Killcams will not be happening in the foreseeable future. Beigealert pretty much said so himself.
I don't believe they mentioned anything about trying to help Rookies aim or tracking during fights.. And if that's the case and their goal was to help rookies with their aim/tracking then again it should be something that is only on a rookie server. Simply because having such aim/tracking help (in addition to knowing the hp of your target BEFORE the fight) will help high skill veterans a LOT more than it will help casuals or rookies...
It wasn't the initial intent, but it fit with the objectives of the feature to make the game more accessible to new players, and make it more fun to shoot skulks. I had actually been trying outlining player models to help with the tracking, but found that the health bars alone did a fine job of assisting in that regard.
I could be wrong, but yeah.. A killcam would help rookies understand how close they got to getting the kill, while helping them see how the veteran got the kill on them (so they might learn something) yet without giving aim/tracking assistance...
A kill cam serves a slightly different purpose, although there is some overlap. It is definitely something I would like to see but it is not a simple feature to add and would definitely take some time to implement (not just engine side either, there's a lot of lua that would probably need to be modified to make it work too).
Seems like a no brainer to me... The longer we have these hp bars the more Marine players will like them and want them to stay (and why not, they make things a LOT easier on Marine)
I don't understand these arguments, or rather, they don't sway me. If it makes the game feel easier / more fun why would we revert it? This change did raise the skill floor for marines, but rather than reverting to bring the balance back in check, I'd rather we adjust other gameplay elements to help sway it towards Aliens instead. See https://trello.com/c/ojAhL7zx/121-298-adjust-pres-flow for an example of a change that is likely to help out aliens by making it so players get more pres so they can replace their lifeforms more quickly.
Seems like a no brainer to me... The longer we have these hp bars the more Marine players will like them and want them to stay (and why not, they make things a LOT easier on Marine)
I don't understand these arguments, or rather, they don't sway me. If it makes the game feel easier / more fun why would we revert it? This change did raise the skill floor for marines, but rather than reverting to bring the balance back in check, I'd rather we adjust other gameplay elements to help sway it towards Aliens instead. See https://trello.com/c/ojAhL7zx/121-298-adjust-pres-flow for an example of a change that is likely to help out aliens by making it so players get more pres so they can replace their lifeforms more quickly.
Maybe it's more fun as a marine, but as an alien the game is now as linear as the proposed pres changes: boring, but with more pres you will be able to do more of it, yay.
(btw, the argument was about the speed of removal from the game; so it's completely valid)
Comments
So maybe it wouldn't be a bad idea to only enable this feature on rookie-only servers, to get them into the swing of things easier, and to not upset the balance of higher level gameplay?
We've already discussed that. It's not good to have different versions.
update: Acceptable solution is to add a death cam that will be showing who killed you and the remaining HP. The impact is almost the same as the current commander view (just there will be more eyes), but this thing will be directly giving the idea of how much damage you're dealing.
Yes, it's not good to have different versions, but it's also not good to impose a thing like this in the first place. Yet it was, and now we're trying to figure out what to do with it. NS1 did fine without HP bars, and it was never really needed in NS2 imo, but if they're adamant about adding it, a compromise such as enabling it on rookie-only servers would be preferable.
What do you people think? There were any discussions?
Suggested stuff ranged from TF2 with stats to Dirty Bomb with ghosts of you and the enemy and where they shoot from
Also, letting people disable them for themselves isn't really a solution. Its less a UI change and more a voluntary handicap.
I also tried it with Lerk today and it felt pretty much exactly like having aura only without seeing through walls.. When fighting multiple marines it was stupidly easy to keep track of the one i had injured...
Yes but other players still have it. If UWE refuses to remove this, then mods to disable it will most certainly come up (and likely be widespread) and will just cause confusion for new players. Not to mention it would also end up dividing the player base.
I think that improves accessibility and the frustration for all ranges of skill except the highest.
ROOKIES DO NOT NEED VETERANS TO TEACH THEM! Coaching and mentor programs have been tried before and have not had any success. This alone is enough to prove that veterans trying to teach rookies has little or no effect on player retention.
Coaching/mentoring would be unwanted by the majority of rookies. I know this because it already is. Go on any pub server with any amount of rookies and you will have a hard time finding even one that is willing to actually listen to you. These players only play the game for 2 hours and quit forever regardless of any training.
The people who would benefit the most from coaching are more intermediate players who are willing to seek it out already.
Coaching, mentoring, or whatever you want to call it is just not worth any time or effort.
Rookies really do not need veterans to teach them. If you do not believe me watch the videos in this spoiler.
These guys had some minor practice before hand but almost all of them are total rookies.
This is a full round on a rookie only server.
http://www.twitch.tv/calego/v/38082162
In those videos you will see that rookies do indeed learn the game on their very own. Sure, they do not play the way we veterans expect them to but that is not the point. Rookies are very new to the game and they do not know what things are. Let them learn at their own pace so that they are more willing to continue learning when they get to regular servers.
Rookies do not need veterans to teach them.
rookies need somewhere safe from cheaters, no matter how bae she is.
However, it really feels like a quasi aimbot, as tracking skulks in packs is amazingly easy as the one your damaging has healthbars above it. As such, you can track them the whole way in until they are dead after which you move to the next one, etc. Close quarters engagements are also much easier to track because their is a flying neon bar above the lifeform.
If you want to keep them perhapse do some sort of middle ground where you de-link the bars and the targets location (I.e. have it displayed somewhere else on the HUD for Marines, say in an "alien health scanner" box or something, maybe have a few options for locations on the HUD as well). That way it doesn't clutter the screen, has the intended rookie effect, and prevents the tracking/aiming improvements.
So give them a death cam, for the sake of...
That isn't exactly easy to do.
http://forums.unknownworlds.com/discussion/comment/2284220/#Comment_2284220
On killcams:
If the half-assed healthbars are doable, the similar level killcam is as easy as one of the GUI mods.
Do it like in Dota: an image of the enemy on the HUD. 80% of the info (including beloved HP level, excluding the positional info that healthbars don't give anyways) you can put there.
I agree, something like a deathcam would be the dream solution, and do wonders to help people learn how to engage as aliens.
You would no longer know exactly how much health a Marine/Alien has going into a fight... Plus you wouldn't have the giant red bar to aid so much in keeping track of your target.
How is a killcam going to have the same impact they wanted? It might help people have better awareness, but they could be getting hit by 3 targets at once or look at themselves missing a skulk in front of them as they die. I feel like a killcam helps people understand why they died so they don't feel like magic just happened, but it may not have much impact on people's aim or focus in fights which is what they probably wanted.
They could consider making the health bars change into hp left indicators that didn't make it as easy to track. Or they could increase the size of the hit boxes or do both
I don't believe they mentioned anything about trying to help Rookies aim or tracking during fights.. And if that's the case and their goal was to help rookies with their aim/tracking then again it should be something that is only on a rookie server. Simply because having such aim/tracking help (in addition to knowing the hp of your target BEFORE the fight) will help high skill veterans a LOT more than it will help casuals or rookies...
I could be wrong, but yeah.. A killcam would help rookies understand how close they got to getting the kill, while helping them see how the veteran got the kill on them (so they might learn something) yet without giving aim/tracking assistance...
Seems like a no brainer to me... The longer we have these hp bars the more Marine players will like them and want them to stay (and why not, they make things a LOT easier on Marine)
A kill cam serves a slightly different purpose, although there is some overlap. It is definitely something I would like to see but it is not a simple feature to add and would definitely take some time to implement (not just engine side either, there's a lot of lua that would probably need to be modified to make it work too).
I don't understand these arguments, or rather, they don't sway me. If it makes the game feel easier / more fun why would we revert it? This change did raise the skill floor for marines, but rather than reverting to bring the balance back in check, I'd rather we adjust other gameplay elements to help sway it towards Aliens instead. See https://trello.com/c/ojAhL7zx/121-298-adjust-pres-flow for an example of a change that is likely to help out aliens by making it so players get more pres so they can replace their lifeforms more quickly.
Maybe it's more fun as a marine, but as an alien the game is now as linear as the proposed pres changes: boring, but with more pres you will be able to do more of it, yay.
(btw, the argument was about the speed of removal from the game; so it's completely valid)