<!--quoteo(post=1844366:date=May 6 2011, 11:14 AM:name=Quovatis)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Quovatis @ May 6 2011, 11:14 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1844366"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I STRONGLY disagree with removing the tech point requirement. In fact, you should be moving the opposite direction: remove upgrading and only have it dependent on the number of tech points for upgrades. It takes skill to control territory and hold on to tech.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Agreed. Number of tech points held = your tech level (with the implication that if you lose tech points, you downgrade tech level).
The proposed expansionless gameplay effectively discourages taking and holding new territory--which is what imo strategy games should be about.
<!--quoteo(post=1844387:date=May 6 2011, 12:16 PM:name=Zek)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Zek @ May 6 2011, 12:16 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1844387"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->What if phase gates could only be built in the vicinity of a command chair? Then marines want to take expansions for map coverage just like they captured hives in NS1.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> This I like.
<u><b>Each structure unlocks one additional lifeform of that type</b></u> E.g. That way the Alien Commander unlocks <i>1 additional Fade</i> by constructing <i>1 additional Shift structure</i>.
<blockquote>+1 <b>Gorge</b>-slot per <b>Crag</b> +1 <b>Lerk</b>-slot per <b>Whip</b> +1 <b>Fade</b>-slot per <b>Shift</b> +1 <b>Onos</b>-slot per <b>Hive Colony</b></blockquote>
<b>Pros:</b> <ul><li>It's a more involving way to construct a tactic and is directly affecting players below.</li><li>If an Alien Commander is very defensive and constructs a lot of Crags, the team is limited to many Gorges, i.e. encourages diversity of tech-structures.</li><li>Encourages longer tech-chains and builds.</li><li>Marine counter-attacks to structures/alien tech isn't simply on/off for the alien tech, it becomes gradual.</li><li>As the game progress to late-game the limitations are naturally lifted as the Commander places more and more structures.</li><li>Onos truly becomes valuable, and makes it attractive to upgrade Hives to max-tech (aside from the health-bonus and spawnpoints it gets for doing so).</li></ul>
<b>Cons:</b> <ul><li>Does not scale with team-size.</li><li>Limits the player's choice.</li><li>Unexperienced players can take a valuable slot (Fade, Onos).</li><li>Alien Commander must know what he is doing or the team will suffer.</li><li>Somewhat complicated.</li></ul>
<u><b>Each <i>Mature </i>structure unlocks one additional lifeform of that type</b></u> You only unlock a form-slot if you upgrade the structure to <i>Mature</i>, allowing UWE to balance costs more easily. For example the cost for a Crag, Shift and Whip are all 10 resources, meaning that the Shift is more valuable since it unlocks Fade. That may be a problem. Thus you can make it so that Crag is cheapest to upgrade to Mature (say 5), Shift is the most expensive (say 25) to upgrade to Mature. Here are some rudimentary values:
<blockquote>+1 <b>Gorge</b>-slot per <b>Mature Crag</b> (Mature costs 5) +1 <b>Lerk</b>-slot per <b>Mature Whip</b> (Mature costs 15) +1 <b>Fade</b>-slot per <b>Mature Shift</b> (Mature costs 20) +1 <b>Onos</b>-slot per <b>Hive Colony</b></blockquote>
AsranielJoin Date: 2002-06-03Member: 724Members, Playtest Lead, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow, Subnautica Playtester, Retired Community Developer
i kind of like that idea.
The evolve screen will be reworked anyway (its flash now), so the amount of crags etc can be shown to make it obvious to the player when he can evolve and when not and why.
<!--quoteo(post=1844447:date=May 6 2011, 07:06 AM:name=Harimau)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Harimau @ May 6 2011, 07:06 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1844447"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The proposed expansionless gameplay effectively discourages taking and holding new territory--which is what imo strategy games should be about.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Not really. Control of the tech points is a requisite for victory: no tech points controlled = lose the game. I do not see de-linking tech points from tech levels will diminish the importance of controlling tech points. It needs to be play-tested.
<b>Triggerman</b>: Does not scale. And too many useless structures (structures for the sake of structures). Somewhat invisible as well (or much less visible), but perhaps you covered that with "complicated", and Asraniel proposed a solution. And you mentioned lack of choice on your own. Reminds me of someone's Armoury Stock suggestion - I don't like it.
My own take on Mature/Standard structures is that: Standard structures have all the basic utility (heals, attacks, cloaks, etc.) but lower health and no research options, but Mature structures have the same utility but greater health and unlocked research options. Mature structures would be considerably more expensive than Standard structures - they would sit in your base, defended, for you to research and maintain upgrades. Standard structures are more throwaway for your forward positions. Tech must also be tied to structures: Loss of a Mature structure would lead to temporary loss of the unlocked tech (until you upgrade a spare structure to Mature, or build one from scratch).
Also, regarding alien structures not placed on infestation - rather than taking damage and dying on their own, I think they should just go into hibernation (effectively deactivated). No innate healing, harvesters would not produce resources, crags would not heal, whips would not attack (or move), etc. I guess if you really wanted to, you could also lower their max HP but I don't see much point in that. Similar in practice to marine structures being deactivated due to loss of power.
<b>crae</b>: That isn't so. The tech-point-less gameplay would encourage turtling, since there is relatively little incentive to expand or hold more than one point. Resource points are understandable, because they give you increased income - increased income means better tech and increased firepower. Tech points on the other hand... nothing.
<!--quoteo(post=1844471:date=May 6 2011, 03:50 AM:name=Harimau)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Harimau @ May 6 2011, 03:50 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1844471"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><b>Triggerman</b>: Does not scale. And too many useless structures (structures for the sake of structures). Somewhat invisible as well (or much less visible), but perhaps you covered that with "complicated". And you mentioned lack of choice on your own. Reminds me of someone's Armoury Stock suggestion - I don't like it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
(<a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=113258&view=findpost&p=1844454" target="_blank">Topic of discussion</a>)
Does not scale is very true, may break my suggestion completely. But, moving on... :p
"And too many useless structures (structures for the sake of structures)" Each structure has a distinct advantage to the players below, placing them inside the home base would give the players the form but won't help them out in the field. They're not there for the sake of being there, they are actually useful and do cost valuable resources. But I see your point, may end up being too many structures cluttering the field.
But to motivate my suggestion is that I find simply on/off scenario for tech to be boring, you are basically completely guaranteed to keep tech if you just place two of the structures in a hard to reach area inside Alien Main basically. Place a structure up in the Alien Main rafters in Tram and it will be completely safe until the Marines get Jetpack. Also it requires the Alien Commander to actually <i>do</i> something actively throughout the game if he has to make sure to keep the distribution of the forms according to a tactic. It also sets a certain risk/reward to moving to the front with structures to back the players up. If they put it too far away from spawn then they're undefended for longer and if killed reduces the amount of forms available.
And personally I think that it's more interesting to have some "forced" diversity among the alien classes (but really players can still play all forms once a slot becomes available) rather than everyone going Fade, since that's what it feels like with the current resource distribution since there's no reason not to go Fade or Onos once that becomes available.
I don't know how it would be forced diversity, you would just end up with selfish (good, bad, or useless, it doesn't matter) players taking up useful slots, and you would end up with a situation where you have to ask the commander to drop another Shift because you want to go Fade, and hope that the commander has enough resources to, and is inclined to, accommodate your request, and also hope that no one else gets the jump on you.
Also, I don't personally see the value of forced or even encouraged diversity. There was another thread in I&S about marine weapons (upkeep) that deals with the same issue for the marine side instead.
Yeah, the crags and such are useful enough, but they should be placed for their utility, not because it increases your potential gorge count by 1. They should be placed primarily for their utility*, and anything else is just a bonus; whereas in your scenario they would probably be placed to increase slot count first, and then their utility is just a bonus - assuming they're placed in a reasonable location, which they mostly won't be. *It is for that reason that I suggest cheap throwaway chambers, which can be upgraded to better, more necessary chambers. I get what you're saying about placing mature structures in some dark corner of the room, but I don't imagine it will be much different from the Advanced Armoury is for marines. (I also suggest that an Advanced Armoury should be to an Armoury what a Mature Chamber is to a Chamber).
<!--quoteo(post=1844477:date=May 6 2011, 04:27 AM:name=Harimau)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Harimau @ May 6 2011, 04:27 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1844477"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't know how it would be forced diversity, you would just end up with selfish (good, bad, or useless, it doesn't matter) players taking up useful slots, and you would end up with a situation where you have to ask the commander to drop another Shift because you want to go Fade, and hope that the commander has enough resources to, and is inclined to, accommodate your request, and also hope that no one else gets the jump on you.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well in my opinion it's better to have for the forms have some value (like NS1), and if it involves waiting a few minutes in the early to mid game (in the late game there should be enough structures to accommodate more forms) then I personally would be fine with it. But yes it would be frustrating for example those who always wants to pick the same type of character in a fighting game because they are better at them, and there are many of those people too. So yes you're absolutely right.
Also actually having to ask the Commander to say drop a Shift is a player interaction with the Commander, and really what's the bad thing about that? Right now I just think the Alien Commander is so out of touch with the players below anyway.
P.S Nice discussing with you but I gotta get back to work :( Just tossed the idea out so I'll let it be at that now.
IeptBarakatThe most difficult name to speak ingame.Join Date: 2009-07-10Member: 68107Members, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Diamond, Reinforced - Shadow
edited May 2011
If you want additional techpoint using defensive structures for holding marine territory..
You could add a stationary siege cannon with self autoscan built onto the techpoint. Would slow down the alien advancement of structures/hydras.
A nano facility techpoint that would mildly repair structures and armor nearby, taking inspiration from a hive. Used best if medpacks don't heal armor. They could also prevent infestation from growing in their radius. Making them ideal to prevent infestation creeping to your main base.
The downside of these structures is you cannot place infantry portals next to them. And they still cannot defend themselves from an alien player.
It would give the marine team a good distinction from the alien team, while still giving a reason to control tech points.
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<!--quoteo(post=1844471:date=May 6 2011, 08:50 AM:name=Harimau)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Harimau @ May 6 2011, 08:50 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1844471"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Tech points on the other hand... nothing.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I fail to understand how you can make this statement when the victory condition of the game is to deny the enemy team access to all tech points. No, tech points do not produce res flow, no tech points may not be required for tier level upgrades, but the enemy team coverts them for their survival, therefore they have value, just not in the way that you have grown accustomed (upgrades). Which is in a more secure position; the team that has built up a single tech point or the team with 3 mature and developed tech points? Too many assumptions in here already, it needs to be play-tested.
the power nodes or power generators that are currently tech 2 need to be put on tech 1 backup power is essential and like ive noticed would be nice if someone purpously designed a level without power nodes or very few is essential to have them at the begining
<!--quoteo(post=1844477:date=May 6 2011, 09:27 AM:name=Harimau)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Harimau @ May 6 2011, 09:27 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1844477"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't know how it would be forced diversity, you would just end up with selfish (good, bad, or useless, it doesn't matter) players taking up useful slots, and you would end up with a situation where you have to ask the commander to drop another Shift because you want to go Fade, and hope that the commander has enough resources to, and is inclined to, accommodate your request, and also hope that no one else gets the jump on you.
Yeah, the crags and such are useful enough, but they should be placed for their utility, not because it increases your potential gorge count by 1. They should be placed primarily for their utility*, and anything else is just a bonus; whereas in your scenario they would probably be placed to increase slot count first, and then their utility is just a bonus...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I only see this happening when the Demand is always higher than the Supply, and there's an easy way to fix that: Supply more. Have each chamber increases the lifeform count for whatever lifeform it unlocks by enough to ease the Demand; perhaps by 2, 3, or 4. It still doesn't scale indefinitely, but it works, and these games do have a range of recommended players, and it's sort of impossible (and impractical) to create a perfect solution that scales to all sizes and accounts for all of the outlying situations.
Pylons are used both for their utility (providing power to structures) and for their supply cap increase, and I wouldn't say one is strictly more important than the other. When you need either power or supply it's the most important thing in the game, but neither of the functions of the Pylon really outweigh the other such that by building additional Pylons for the benefit of one cause you're hindering another.
<!--quoteo(post=1844454:date=May 6 2011, 12:31 PM:name=Triggerman)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Triggerman @ May 6 2011, 12:31 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1844454"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><b>Cons:</b> <ul><li>Does not scale with team-size.</li><li>Limits the player's choice.</li><li>Unexperienced players can take a valuable slot (Fade, Onos).</li><li>Alien Commander must know what he is doing or the team will suffer.</li><li>Somewhat complicated.</li></ul><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I think these are exactly the things they've tried to move away from in NS2. If there's a decision to accept such issues for the sake of more interesting and rewarding gameplay I don't think there's any reason to just stop at some slight lifeform limitations.
<!--quoteo(post=1844500:date=May 6 2011, 11:27 AM:name=crae)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (crae @ May 6 2011, 11:27 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1844500"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I fail to understand how you can make this statement when the victory condition of the game is to deny the enemy team access to all tech points. No, tech points do not produce res flow, no tech points may not be required for tier level upgrades, but the enemy team coverts them for their survival, therefore they have value, just not in the way that you have grown accustomed (upgrades). Which is in a more secure position; the team that has built up a single tech point or the team with 3 mature and developed tech points? Too many assumptions in here already, it needs to be play-tested.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's not cost effective to build multiple bases then split your players off to guard them to ensure survival. It's faster, easier, and less expensive to fortify one point. I'm speaking of marines here, of course, since aliens are mobile & alerted enough to swarm to defend a hive. Extra hives are already useful since they are cheap & provide drifter/infestation energy pools, although that will probably be a bit less useful once pustules are implemented and infestation isn't so overpowered.
Speaking of which, hives really should cost at least 30 team res if not more, and IPs should be reduce to maybe 15 or 10. Hives have a ton of health, provide a lot of spawn points (more so than a single or even double IP), and let the aliens infest the map faster. Comparatively, a CC and two IPs costs 60 team res and roughly provide the same role for marines (no infestation, so actually they're kind of worse). That's three times the cost of the alien hive right now.
<!--quoteo(post=1844569:date=May 6 2011, 06:51 PM:name=KuBaN)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (KuBaN @ May 6 2011, 06:51 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1844569"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I only see this happening when the Demand is always higher than the Supply, and there's an easy way to fix that: Supply more. Have each chamber increases the lifeform count for whatever lifeform it unlocks by enough to ease the Demand; perhaps by 2, 3, or 4. It still doesn't scale indefinitely, but it works, and these games do have a range of recommended players, and it's sort of impossible (and impractical) to create a perfect solution that scales to all sizes and accounts for all of the outlying situations.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This sounds too difficult to implement well. What happens when players join or players leave? Let's say it's just enough to bump the amount supplied per structure up or down. Suddenly you spent too much on unlocking evolutions or are supply locked. Players can come and go at any time. This wouldn't be intuitive to grasp and would frustrate a lot of people. I don't see it working.
<!--quoteo(post=1844571:date=May 6 2011, 07:55 PM:name=Stele007)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Stele007 @ May 6 2011, 07:55 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1844571"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This sounds too difficult to implement well. What happens when players join or players leave? Let's say it's just enough to bump the amount supplied per structure up or down. Suddenly you spent too much on unlocking evolutions or are supply locked. Players can come and go at any time. This wouldn't be intuitive to grasp and would frustrate a lot of people. I don't see it working.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Sounds like you understood the statement as suggesting that the number of lifeforms each chamber unlocks would automatically scale with the number of players. If so, that's not what I'm saying, but otherwise I don't really understand the point you're trying to make. I was suggesting, instead of 1 Whip unlocks 1 Lerk slot, 1 Whip unlocks 2 or 3 Lerk slots. That seems more than enough to ease the demand of any reasonably populated game.
Oh, okay. That still creates an imbalance where aliens don't have to spend as much team res to gain the same relative strength in smaller games, while marines don't have this advantage at all. It's essentially doing the same thing as 1 for 1 except balancing it for larger teams while unbalancing it for smaller teams.
<!--quoteo(post=1844590:date=May 6 2011, 09:51 PM:name=Stele007)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Stele007 @ May 6 2011, 09:51 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1844590"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Oh, okay. That still creates an imbalance where aliens don't have to spend as much team res to gain the same relative strength in smaller games, while marines don't have this advantage at all. It's essentially doing the same thing as 1 for 1 except balancing it for larger teams while unbalancing it for smaller teams.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Good point. Honestly I don't think it's necessary to limit the number of lifeforms by the structure; just playing the devil's advocate.
A tech node or base is money sometimes tons more in other RTSs. Some RTSs have done away with separate resource gathering.
A tech node should be a resource gathering multiplier. The multiplier should be so distinctive that marines can't buy nice shotties everytime and aliens can't upgrade without it.
When someone asks why no more ...it's because we lost position.
Why do what the comm says? Because otherwise i won't by a flamethrower next time. Why do what the comm says? Because otherwise i won't be a fade next time.
fsfodukJoin Date: 2004-04-09Member: 27810Members, NS2 Developer, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, Squad Five Gold, Subnautica Playtester, NS2 Community Developer, Pistachionauts
<!--quoteo(post=1844601:date=May 7 2011, 05:06 AM:name=kingmob)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (kingmob @ May 7 2011, 05:06 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1844601"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->A tech node should be a resource gathering multiplier.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I was thinking something along those lines but having techpoints being a cost modifier for high level tech instead On another note I think linking the gorge to any structure is just absurd it should be a base unit like the skulk.
I'm still confused why they have moved so far away from the NS1 structure:
U took hive/tech point to deny aliens a hive (didnt require a 2nd CC just substantial base to hold off aliens) and could upgrade rines on single CC
aliens needed a hive to unlock new chambers (mc/dc/sc)
chambers dictated which alien specy to go (some species useless without at least 2 chamber upgrades)
Allows for a lot more variation in tactics.
You could reduce the amount of tech points so marines and aliens fight it out to advance their tech as opposed to turtle teching very quickly and cancelling each other out.
All based on incomplete content obviously.
Also, what happened to turret factory and cheap turrets, makes much more sense.
<!--quoteo(post=1844607:date=May 7 2011, 01:06 AM:name=neilm86)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (neilm86 @ May 7 2011, 01:06 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1844607"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm still confused why they have moved so far away from the NS1 structure:
U took hive/tech points to deny aliens a have (didnt require a 2nd CC just substantial base to hold off aliens)
aliens needed a hive to unlock new chambers
chambers dictated which alien specy to go (some species useless without at least 2 chamber upgrades)
Allows for a lot more variation in tactics.
You could reduce the amount of tech points so marines and aliens fight it out to advance there tech as opposed to both reaching T3 very quickly and cancelling each other out.
All based on incomplete content obviously.
Also, what happened to turret factory and cheap turrets, makes much more sense.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Also realize that this is still in the testing stages. I would not be surprised (in fact I hope they do this) if by release, structure costs are jacked up considerably. This will keep people from getting T3 instantaneously, which is what it feels like in the current situation.
<!--quoteo(post=1844500:date=May 7 2011, 12:27 AM:name=crae)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (crae @ May 7 2011, 12:27 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1844500"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I fail to understand<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I know.
There is no value to tech points. If it were possible you could have 3 CCs in the same room, with one of them teched up to level 3, hidden behind a wall of sentries, and it would be MORE SECURE than 3 tech points spread out all across the map. <b>There is no value to tech points.</b>
<!--quoteo(post=1844569:date=May 7 2011, 07:51 AM:name=KuBaN)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (KuBaN @ May 7 2011, 07:51 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1844569"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I only see this happening when the Demand is always higher than the Supply, and there's an easy way to fix that: Supply more. Have each chamber increases the lifeform count for whatever lifeform it unlocks by enough to ease the Demand; perhaps by 2, 3, or 4. It still doesn't scale indefinitely, but it works, and these games do have a range of recommended players, and it's sort of impossible (and impractical) to create a perfect solution that scales to all sizes and accounts for all of the outlying situations.
Pylons are used both for their utility (providing power to structures) and for their supply cap increase, and I wouldn't say one is strictly more important than the other. When you need either power or supply it's the most important thing in the game, but neither of the functions of the Pylon really outweigh the other such that by building additional Pylons for the benefit of one cause you're hindering another.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Single structure or single tier unlocks DO scale indefinitely.
Structures will inevitably be placed wherever there's space (and not in a forward location) if there's any shortage in demand. In fact, it would be <b>stupid</b> for a commander to place a key structure in a forward location because then it would be <b>vulnerable</b> - that means that his supply of fades or lerks or gorges are <b>vulnerable</b>.
And if you make them abundant like you suggest, then there was no point to the suggestion in the first place - single structure unlocks would achieve the same with less pointless resource usage and less unnecessary clutter.
There is no value to tech points. If it were possible you could have 3 CCs in the same room, with one of them teched up to level 3, hidden behind a wall of sentries, and it would be MORE SECURE than 3 tech points spread out all across the map. <b>There is no value to tech points.</b><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Except you can't.
So your choices are, One CC, in one room, with one group of spawns and set of defences and resource income, or more than one room/set of spawns/defences/resources.
Which makes the more than one substantially more secure. At some point it becomes far more valuable to spread out and give your marines the option of not being spawn camped or forcing the alien team to split up, than it does to box yourself in.
The whole second CC (CS, whatever you call it nowadays) feels like a mess to me right now. There's not much strategical freedom when you're forced to get one to access something and as a byproduct you get a plenty of other seemingly random possibilities.
I think it's ok to have something tied to the expansions, but having a plethora of random things, none of them alone worth expanding seems pretty awkward. Why can't I just invest on tech, commander spells, map control or spawning speed, why do I have to go more than halfway to everything to get to the one I want?
I think it's much more interesting to have the abilitiy to choose between heavy teching, extra IP and commander spells, res towers and through that put myself into a strategical position to expand rather than having to expand to get all the strategical options.
a) Does anyone else think the activatable abilitys (Umbra etc) are pretty useless - especially because this structures need a lot protection and the effect is only around the structure as center point? b) With the idea linking them to the tech as requirement to unlock other lifeforms, doesnt itmake themt even more useless since you want them save... => at your hive.
You cant use these structures offensive, all you can do is exploit that the effect goes trough some walls, but most of the time you just spam your hive room with them.
PS: Whips are a joke(no range no dmg and as i said activatable abilitys suck), hydras and crags are the only structures ppl really use. (1 whip for the upgrades, then let your guys spamm hydras everywhere and keep them alive with crags)
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->a) Does anyone else think the activatable abilitys (Umbra etc) are pretty useless - especially because this structures need a lot protection and the effect is only around the structure as center point?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree with this and I have been bringing it up for awhile. My thought on this is to allow aliens on the floor to also activate the umbra ability by attacking or using the structure. As a more restricted alternative, you could only allow gorges and the commander to activate chamber abilities which would make the connection between the gorge and commander even more apparent and important. This would allow aliens and commanders to work together to keep chamber abilities going. I also think all alien structures should be able to move with certain restrictions. This would make aliens feel unique from rines, keep rines guessing when they enter infest areas, keep the commander busy continually shifting structures based on changing conditions, and would help with chamber abilities not being used because they're stuck in areas where the action isn't anymore.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->PS: Whips are a joke(no range no dmg and as i said activatable abilitys suck)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Right now I agree, but this will change once they get in the bombard ability that allows whips to throw sacs of acid at the enemy. Once that is in, you can hide a whip or two in the base, upgrade them until they have bombard, unroot them, march them towards the front line with a little backup, and laugh as the marines get melted by the barrage of acid.
<!--quoteo(post=1844771:date=May 7 2011, 05:52 PM:name=l3lessed)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (l3lessed @ May 7 2011, 05:52 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1844771"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Right now I agree, but this will change once they get in the bombard ability that allows whips to throw sacs of acid at the enemy. Once that is in, you can hide a whip or two in the base, upgrade them until they have bombard, unroot them, march them towards the front line with a little backup, and laugh as the marines get melted by the barrage of acid.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I just hope they beef up the Whip's range and damage as they are currently negligible as defenses. Bombard will be nice to have, but will require extensive attention from the comm due to being a target ability and we all know how slow Whips crawl :P
If ya guys would just add welders back in the game, they could be used to slowly burn away infestation just like flame throwers do just.. a lot slower and obviously not as wide of an area.
Comments
Agreed.
Number of tech points held = your tech level (with the implication that if you lose tech points, you downgrade tech level).
The proposed expansionless gameplay effectively discourages taking and holding new territory--which is what imo strategy games should be about.
<!--quoteo(post=1844387:date=May 6 2011, 12:16 PM:name=Zek)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Zek @ May 6 2011, 12:16 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1844387"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->What if phase gates could only be built in the vicinity of a command chair? Then marines want to take expansions for map coverage just like they captured hives in NS1.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This I like.
Still, that's just one small late-game aspect.
E.g. That way the Alien Commander unlocks <i>1 additional Fade</i> by constructing <i>1 additional Shift structure</i>.
<blockquote>+1 <b>Gorge</b>-slot per <b>Crag</b>
+1 <b>Lerk</b>-slot per <b>Whip</b>
+1 <b>Fade</b>-slot per <b>Shift</b>
+1 <b>Onos</b>-slot per <b>Hive Colony</b></blockquote>
<b>Pros:</b>
<ul><li>It's a more involving way to construct a tactic and is directly affecting players below.</li><li>If an Alien Commander is very defensive and constructs a lot of Crags, the team is limited to many Gorges, i.e. encourages diversity of tech-structures.</li><li>Encourages longer tech-chains and builds.</li><li>Marine counter-attacks to structures/alien tech isn't simply on/off for the alien tech, it becomes gradual.</li><li>As the game progress to late-game the limitations are naturally lifted as the Commander places more and more structures.</li><li>Onos truly becomes valuable, and makes it attractive to upgrade Hives to max-tech (aside from the health-bonus and spawnpoints it gets for doing so).</li></ul>
<b>Cons:</b>
<ul><li>Does not scale with team-size.</li><li>Limits the player's choice.</li><li>Unexperienced players can take a valuable slot (Fade, Onos).</li><li>Alien Commander must know what he is doing or the team will suffer.</li><li>Somewhat complicated.</li></ul>
<u><b>Each <i>Mature </i>structure unlocks one additional lifeform of that type</b></u>
You only unlock a form-slot if you upgrade the structure to <i>Mature</i>, allowing UWE to balance costs more easily.
For example the cost for a Crag, Shift and Whip are all 10 resources, meaning that the Shift is more valuable since it unlocks Fade. That may be a problem.
Thus you can make it so that Crag is cheapest to upgrade to Mature (say 5), Shift is the most expensive (say 25) to upgrade to Mature.
Here are some rudimentary values:
<blockquote>+1 <b>Gorge</b>-slot per <b>Mature Crag</b> (Mature costs 5)
+1 <b>Lerk</b>-slot per <b>Mature Whip</b> (Mature costs 15)
+1 <b>Fade</b>-slot per <b>Mature Shift</b> (Mature costs 20)
+1 <b>Onos</b>-slot per <b>Hive Colony</b></blockquote>
The evolve screen will be reworked anyway (its flash now), so the amount of crags etc can be shown to make it obvious to the player when he can evolve and when not and why.
Not really. Control of the tech points is a requisite for victory: no tech points controlled = lose the game. I do not see de-linking tech points from tech levels will diminish the importance of controlling tech points. It needs to be play-tested.
My own take on Mature/Standard structures is that: Standard structures have all the basic utility (heals, attacks, cloaks, etc.) but lower health and no research options, but Mature structures have the same utility but greater health and unlocked research options. Mature structures would be considerably more expensive than Standard structures - they would sit in your base, defended, for you to research and maintain upgrades. Standard structures are more throwaway for your forward positions. Tech must also be tied to structures: Loss of a Mature structure would lead to temporary loss of the unlocked tech (until you upgrade a spare structure to Mature, or build one from scratch).
Also, regarding alien structures not placed on infestation - rather than taking damage and dying on their own, I think they should just go into hibernation (effectively deactivated). No innate healing, harvesters would not produce resources, crags would not heal, whips would not attack (or move), etc. I guess if you really wanted to, you could also lower their max HP but I don't see much point in that. Similar in practice to marine structures being deactivated due to loss of power.
<b>crae</b>: That isn't so. The tech-point-less gameplay would encourage turtling, since there is relatively little incentive to expand or hold more than one point. Resource points are understandable, because they give you increased income - increased income means better tech and increased firepower. Tech points on the other hand... nothing.
(<a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=113258&view=findpost&p=1844454" target="_blank">Topic of discussion</a>)
Does not scale is very true, may break my suggestion completely.
But, moving on... :p
"And too many useless structures (structures for the sake of structures)"
Each structure has a distinct advantage to the players below, placing them inside the home base would give the players the form but won't help them out in the field. They're not there for the sake of being there, they are actually useful and do cost valuable resources.
But I see your point, may end up being too many structures cluttering the field.
But to motivate my suggestion is that I find simply on/off scenario for tech to be boring, you are basically completely guaranteed to keep tech if you just place two of the structures in a hard to reach area inside Alien Main basically. Place a structure up in the Alien Main rafters in Tram and it will be completely safe until the Marines get Jetpack. Also it requires the Alien Commander to actually <i>do</i> something actively throughout the game if he has to make sure to keep the distribution of the forms according to a tactic.
It also sets a certain risk/reward to moving to the front with structures to back the players up. If they put it too far away from spawn then they're undefended for longer and if killed reduces the amount of forms available.
And personally I think that it's more interesting to have some "forced" diversity among the alien classes (but really players can still play all forms once a slot becomes available) rather than everyone going Fade, since that's what it feels like with the current resource distribution since there's no reason not to go Fade or Onos once that becomes available.
Also, I don't personally see the value of forced or even encouraged diversity. There was another thread in I&S about marine weapons (upkeep) that deals with the same issue for the marine side instead.
Yeah, the crags and such are useful enough, but they should be placed for their utility, not because it increases your potential gorge count by 1. They should be placed primarily for their utility*, and anything else is just a bonus; whereas in your scenario they would probably be placed to increase slot count first, and then their utility is just a bonus - assuming they're placed in a reasonable location, which they mostly won't be.
*It is for that reason that I suggest cheap throwaway chambers, which can be upgraded to better, more necessary chambers. I get what you're saying about placing mature structures in some dark corner of the room, but I don't imagine it will be much different from the Advanced Armoury is for marines. (I also suggest that an Advanced Armoury should be to an Armoury what a Mature Chamber is to a Chamber).
Well in my opinion it's better to have for the forms have some value (like NS1), and if it involves waiting a few minutes in the early to mid game (in the late game there should be enough structures to accommodate more forms) then I personally would be fine with it. But yes it would be frustrating for example those who always wants to pick the same type of character in a fighting game because they are better at them, and there are many of those people too. So yes you're absolutely right.
Also actually having to ask the Commander to say drop a Shift is a player interaction with the Commander, and really what's the bad thing about that? Right now I just think the Alien Commander is so out of touch with the players below anyway.
P.S Nice discussing with you but I gotta get back to work :(
Just tossed the idea out so I'll let it be at that now.
You could add a stationary siege cannon with self autoscan built onto the techpoint. Would slow down the alien advancement of structures/hydras.
A nano facility techpoint that would mildly repair structures and armor nearby, taking inspiration from a hive. Used best if medpacks don't heal armor. They could also prevent infestation from growing in their radius. Making them ideal to prevent infestation creeping to your main base.
The downside of these structures is you cannot place infantry portals next to them. And they still cannot defend themselves from an alien player.
It would give the marine team a good distinction from the alien team, while still giving a reason to control tech points.
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I fail to understand how you can make this statement when the victory condition of the game is to deny the enemy team access to all tech points. No, tech points do not produce res flow, no tech points may not be required for tier level upgrades, but the enemy team coverts them for their survival, therefore they have value, just not in the way that you have grown accustomed (upgrades). Which is in a more secure position; the team that has built up a single tech point or the team with 3 mature and developed tech points? Too many assumptions in here already, it needs to be play-tested.
Yeah, the crags and such are useful enough, but they should be placed for their utility, not because it increases your potential gorge count by 1. They should be placed primarily for their utility*, and anything else is just a bonus; whereas in your scenario they would probably be placed to increase slot count first, and then their utility is just a bonus...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I only see this happening when the Demand is always higher than the Supply, and there's an easy way to fix that: Supply more. Have each chamber increases the lifeform count for whatever lifeform it unlocks by enough to ease the Demand; perhaps by 2, 3, or 4. It still doesn't scale indefinitely, but it works, and these games do have a range of recommended players, and it's sort of impossible (and impractical) to create a perfect solution that scales to all sizes and accounts for all of the outlying situations.
Pylons are used both for their utility (providing power to structures) and for their supply cap increase, and I wouldn't say one is strictly more important than the other. When you need either power or supply it's the most important thing in the game, but neither of the functions of the Pylon really outweigh the other such that by building additional Pylons for the benefit of one cause you're hindering another.
<ul><li>Does not scale with team-size.</li><li>Limits the player's choice.</li><li>Unexperienced players can take a valuable slot (Fade, Onos).</li><li>Alien Commander must know what he is doing or the team will suffer.</li><li>Somewhat complicated.</li></ul><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think these are exactly the things they've tried to move away from in NS2. If there's a decision to accept such issues for the sake of more interesting and rewarding gameplay I don't think there's any reason to just stop at some slight lifeform limitations.
It's not cost effective to build multiple bases then split your players off to guard them to ensure survival. It's faster, easier, and less expensive to fortify one point. I'm speaking of marines here, of course, since aliens are mobile & alerted enough to swarm to defend a hive. Extra hives are already useful since they are cheap & provide drifter/infestation energy pools, although that will probably be a bit less useful once pustules are implemented and infestation isn't so overpowered.
Speaking of which, hives really should cost at least 30 team res if not more, and IPs should be reduce to maybe 15 or 10. Hives have a ton of health, provide a lot of spawn points (more so than a single or even double IP), and let the aliens infest the map faster. Comparatively, a CC and two IPs costs 60 team res and roughly provide the same role for marines (no infestation, so actually they're kind of worse). That's three times the cost of the alien hive right now.
<!--quoteo(post=1844569:date=May 6 2011, 06:51 PM:name=KuBaN)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (KuBaN @ May 6 2011, 06:51 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1844569"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I only see this happening when the Demand is always higher than the Supply, and there's an easy way to fix that: Supply more. Have each chamber increases the lifeform count for whatever lifeform it unlocks by enough to ease the Demand; perhaps by 2, 3, or 4. It still doesn't scale indefinitely, but it works, and these games do have a range of recommended players, and it's sort of impossible (and impractical) to create a perfect solution that scales to all sizes and accounts for all of the outlying situations.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This sounds too difficult to implement well. What happens when players join or players leave? Let's say it's just enough to bump the amount supplied per structure up or down. Suddenly you spent too much on unlocking evolutions or are supply locked. Players can come and go at any time. This wouldn't be intuitive to grasp and would frustrate a lot of people. I don't see it working.
Sounds like you understood the statement as suggesting that the number of lifeforms each chamber unlocks would automatically scale with the number of players. If so, that's not what I'm saying, but otherwise I don't really understand the point you're trying to make. I was suggesting, instead of 1 Whip unlocks 1 Lerk slot, 1 Whip unlocks 2 or 3 Lerk slots. That seems more than enough to ease the demand of any reasonably populated game.
Good point. Honestly I don't think it's necessary to limit the number of lifeforms by the structure; just playing the devil's advocate.
A tech node or base is money sometimes tons more in other RTSs.
Some RTSs have done away with separate resource gathering.
A tech node should be a resource gathering multiplier.
The multiplier should be so distinctive that marines can't buy nice shotties everytime
and aliens can't upgrade without it.
When someone asks why no more ...it's because we lost position.
Why do what the comm says? Because otherwise i won't by a flamethrower next time.
Why do what the comm says? Because otherwise i won't be a fade next time.
My 2 cents.
I was thinking something along those lines but having techpoints being a cost modifier for high level tech instead
On another note I think linking the gorge to any structure is just absurd it should be a base unit like the skulk.
U took hive/tech point to deny aliens a hive (didnt require a 2nd CC just substantial base to hold off aliens) and could upgrade rines on single CC
aliens needed a hive to unlock new chambers (mc/dc/sc)
chambers dictated which alien specy to go (some species useless without at least 2 chamber upgrades)
Allows for a lot more variation in tactics.
You could reduce the amount of tech points so marines and aliens fight it out to advance their tech as opposed to turtle teching very quickly and cancelling each other out.
All based on incomplete content obviously.
Also, what happened to turret factory and cheap turrets, makes much more sense.
U took hive/tech points to deny aliens a have (didnt require a 2nd CC just substantial base to hold off aliens)
aliens needed a hive to unlock new chambers
chambers dictated which alien specy to go (some species useless without at least 2 chamber upgrades)
Allows for a lot more variation in tactics.
You could reduce the amount of tech points so marines and aliens fight it out to advance there tech as opposed to both reaching T3 very quickly and cancelling each other out.
All based on incomplete content obviously.
Also, what happened to turret factory and cheap turrets, makes much more sense.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Also realize that this is still in the testing stages. I would not be surprised (in fact I hope they do this) if by release, structure costs are jacked up considerably. This will keep people from getting T3 instantaneously, which is what it feels like in the current situation.
I know.
There is no value to tech points. If it were possible you could have 3 CCs in the same room, with one of them teched up to level 3, hidden behind a wall of sentries, and it would be MORE SECURE than 3 tech points spread out all across the map. <b>There is no value to tech points.</b>
Pylons are used both for their utility (providing power to structures) and for their supply cap increase, and I wouldn't say one is strictly more important than the other. When you need either power or supply it's the most important thing in the game, but neither of the functions of the Pylon really outweigh the other such that by building additional Pylons for the benefit of one cause you're hindering another.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Single structure or single tier unlocks DO scale indefinitely.
Structures will inevitably be placed wherever there's space (and not in a forward location) if there's any shortage in demand. In fact, it would be <b>stupid</b> for a commander to place a key structure in a forward location because then it would be <b>vulnerable</b> - that means that his supply of fades or lerks or gorges are <b>vulnerable</b>.
And if you make them abundant like you suggest, then there was no point to the suggestion in the first place - single structure unlocks would achieve the same with less pointless resource usage and less unnecessary clutter.
Edit: ######, wasn't meant to double.
There is no value to tech points. If it were possible you could have 3 CCs in the same room, with one of them teched up to level 3, hidden behind a wall of sentries, and it would be MORE SECURE than 3 tech points spread out all across the map. <b>There is no value to tech points.</b><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Except you can't.
So your choices are, One CC, in one room, with one group of spawns and set of defences and resource income, or more than one room/set of spawns/defences/resources.
Which makes the more than one substantially more secure. At some point it becomes far more valuable to spread out and give your marines the option of not being spawn camped or forcing the alien team to split up, than it does to box yourself in.
I think it's ok to have something tied to the expansions, but having a plethora of random things, none of them alone worth expanding seems pretty awkward. Why can't I just invest on tech, commander spells, map control or spawning speed, why do I have to go more than halfway to everything to get to the one I want?
I think it's much more interesting to have the abilitiy to choose between heavy teching, extra IP and commander spells, res towers and through that put myself into a strategical position to expand rather than having to expand to get all the strategical options.
Crag, Whip etc.
a) Does anyone else think the activatable abilitys (Umbra etc) are pretty useless - especially because this structures need a lot protection and the effect is only around the structure as center point?
b) With the idea linking them to the tech as requirement to unlock other lifeforms, doesnt itmake themt even more useless since you want them save... => at your hive.
You cant use these structures offensive, all you can do is exploit that the effect goes trough some walls, but most of the time you just spam your hive room with them.
PS: Whips are a joke(no range no dmg and as i said activatable abilitys suck), hydras and crags are the only structures ppl really use.
(1 whip for the upgrades, then let your guys spamm hydras everywhere and keep them alive with crags)
I agree with this and I have been bringing it up for awhile. My thought on this is to allow aliens on the floor to also activate the umbra ability by attacking or using the structure. As a more restricted alternative, you could only allow gorges and the commander to activate chamber abilities which would make the connection between the gorge and commander even more apparent and important. This would allow aliens and commanders to work together to keep chamber abilities going. I also think all alien structures should be able to move with certain restrictions. This would make aliens feel unique from rines, keep rines guessing when they enter infest areas, keep the commander busy continually shifting structures based on changing conditions, and would help with chamber abilities not being used because they're stuck in areas where the action isn't anymore.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->PS: Whips are a joke(no range no dmg and as i said activatable abilitys suck)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Right now I agree, but this will change once they get in the bombard ability that allows whips to throw sacs of acid at the enemy. Once that is in, you can hide a whip or two in the base, upgrade them until they have bombard, unroot them, march them towards the front line with a little backup, and laugh as the marines get melted by the barrage of acid.
I just hope they beef up the Whip's range and damage as they are currently negligible as defenses. Bombard will be nice to have, but will require extensive attention from the comm due to being a target ability and we all know how slow Whips crawl :P