Enjoyment should always come first, if a majority of players finds the skulk class frustrating to play then that is a much more serious issue than aliens winning more games. I feel they could probably tweak the numbers a little more and in general I'd rather they address the alien imbalances by messing with the economy and spawn times than with a core aspect of a lifeform.
That being said, I do believe people are somewhat exaggerating how 'poor' skulks are. But the fact that many players are perceiving it to be a problem is cause enough for alarm.
Personally I'd rather they beef up skulk movement again and just make skulks weaker at first but scale better throughout the game. (See Sewlek's balance mod)
I took note of what everyone has been saying in this thread and tried it myself. By god, OP is right. Side-jumping and circle-strafing using nothing but the A and D keys is ridiculous. Even against good players. You can hop around maybe 3-4 times before you get tired and lose speed. But 3-4 circle strafes are enough to take on one or two skulks at the same time.
The more I use it, the more I don't want to use it. Once you get a shotgun, you are an unstoppable machine.
While I can appreciate the feeling of frustration the bottom line is that there's a lot of good skulk players out there that don't have this problem.
You don't get it. Everyone has this problem because it is a matter of physics. If the marine strafe jumps in a direction the skulk isn't traveling in then the lack of skulk acceleration makes it physically impossible to close the distance before a good marine will gun you down. This is a fact. No amount of "getting better" will let you close the gap in that situation.
DC_DarklingJoin Date: 2003-07-10Member: 18068Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver
your solution is getting of the floor, and climb.
Even a good aimer has a lot more trouble reacquiring a target if the target is moving near random at objects on ceiling & wall.
Yes it takes longer, but you as a skulk will live.
Added bonus that the dropping down helps a bit on speed.
your solution is getting of the floor, and climb.
Even a good aimer has a lot more trouble reacquiring a target if the target is moving near random at objects on ceiling & wall.
Yes it takes longer, but you as a skulk will live.
Added bonus that the dropping down helps a bit on speed.
You don't get it either. Your "solution" is for a totally different problem.
Farknut, the way that uber skulks appear to compensate is not by changing direction to follow the marine but instead to maintain as much of their momentum as possible, and to keep an erratic movement pattern going, or continue out of shot and retry. I agree that it's a problem, as the vast majority of us don't have that level of skill or awareness. I would like to see skulks able to turn faster, and not be so skiddy.
Just saying that while what you describe is by and large the norm, there are a few unbelievable skulks out there who can still hold their own against top level marines at present.
While I can appreciate the feeling of frustration the bottom line is that there's a lot of good skulk players out there that don't have this problem.
You don't get it. Everyone has this problem because it is a matter of physics. If the marine strafe jumps in a direction the skulk isn't traveling in then the lack of skulk acceleration makes it physically impossible to close the distance before a good marine will gun you down. This is a fact. No amount of "getting better" will let you close the gap in that situation.
Listen to this man
This game mechanic is frustrating and not fun because:
- there is nothing YOU can, as a player, do immediately (not talking about changing lifeforms or becoming a super bouncy pro Skulk or running away after every bite)
- you have to rely on the Marine being not good enough. nothing you can influence <- that sucks!
This thread is NOT "nerf Marines".
This thread is NOT "Skulk vs Marine balance should be changed towards Skulk".
This thread is about "this particular game mechanic is frustrating and not fun for Skulk players, because the player him-/herself cannot influence a certain situation because of Skulk physics".
It's a gameplay dead end.
It's not very fun as a Marine as well, it just feels cheap.
What about a crippling bite, limiting jumping speed/distance after the first bite. Would work as a debuff applied by the bite, with a duration of something around one second, two maximum.
wtf?
Close combat is the part where your fps skill is measured. Prediction, aim, movement all come together in it. As a skulk the most important part is to get the 1st hit before marine gets hits on you; that way you can still have hp for his dodges to chew him down. It's so damn boring to play vs public marines that just stand there when you go on them. This mechanic should stay in ns definitely and even be encouraged. If we get the balance mod's marine and skulk movement, the skill difference between players in close combat would really shine and now that would be very interesting and fun to play as you got more speed in place and therefore more options in close combat.
Skulk could use more ns1 style adadad ground dodge speed but otherwise it's fine.
DC_DarklingJoin Date: 2003-07-10Member: 18068Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver
Nono.. I do get it.
people state that marines jumping and hopping around cause a gap which a skulk can not bridge and thus can not get in melee range.
I state this is wrong. Using some near random jumping & climbing, almost all but the very top marines must reacquire aim. Use this time to close the gap.
Also as they need to reacquire where you are, they can jump in the wrong direction, and if you ambush them from above.. you can easily compensate.
The best thing to do when a marine starts hopping is to climb, hide if needed, and attack again.
Nono.. I do get it.
people state that marines jumping and hopping around cause a gap which a skulk can not bridge and thus can not get in melee range.
I state this is wrong. Using some near random jumping & climbing, almost all but the very top marines must reacquire aim. Use this time to close the gap.
Also as they need to reacquire where you are, they can jump in the wrong direction, and if you ambush them from above.. you can easily compensate.
The best thing to do when a marine starts hopping is to climb, hide if needed, and attack again.
It's mostly about the side-stepping. Using nothing but the A and D keys, you can achieve some weirdly long distances between you and the Skulk. Added bonus if you constantly switch around the rotation of your circle strafing.
As I tell all the free weekend noobs, this game is all about the jump spam. The poor collision during movement just makes jump too good not to use as skulk OR marine.
wtf?
Close combat is the part where your fps skill is measured. Prediction, aim, movement all come together in it. As a skulk the most important part is to get the 1st hit before marine gets hits on you; that way you can still have hp for his dodges to chew him down. It's so damn boring to play vs public marines that just stand there when you go on them. This mechanic should stay in ns definitely and even be encouraged. If we get the balance mod's marine and skulk movement, the skill difference between players in close combat would really shine and now that would be very interesting and fun to play as you got more speed in place and therefore more options in close combat.
Skulk could use more ns1 style adadad ground dodge speed but otherwise it's fine.
This is simply incorrect, I'm afraid. The point is the marine should not be able to out maneuver a skulk once both are within melee range. Yes you can compensate for this by climbing walls etc but in a wide open room this is often not possible. So what happens is two equally skilled players could meet, one marine one skulk, the skulk can ambush for the first bite, possibly land a second, but the marine can then press W + A or W + D to side step and then jump which will give him the ability to create a gap that the skulk cannot close, even if the skulk sees the side step coming in advance he cannot keep up as his acceleration rate is lower than that of the marine. So the marine creates this gap, and the skulk now must either run straight at him which is certain death, or try to move erratically which may make the marine miss but also gives him more time to aim and prepare his next evade.
I was on your side to begin with - my first post in this thread I actually told people L2P w/ skulk but after a few dozen hours on the new release, I have conceded that I was wrong, and that the skulk ground acceleration really was nerfed too heavily.
I agree with you that the marines should keep this dodging ability - but a skulk should at the very least match this mobility, and arguably be slightly superior.
This is simply incorrect, I'm afraid. The point is the marine should not be able to out maneuver a skulk once both are within melee range. Yes you can compensate for this by climbing walls etc but in a wide open room this is often not possible. So what happens is two equally skilled players could meet, one marine one skulk, the skulk can ambush for the first bite, possibly land a second, but the marine can then press W + A or W + D to side step and then jump which will give him the ability to create a gap that the skulk cannot close, even if the skulk sees the side step coming in advance he cannot keep up as his acceleration rate is lower than that of the marine. So the marine creates this gap, and the skulk now must either run straight at him which is certain death, or try to move erratically which may make the marine miss but also gives him more time to aim and prepare his next evade.
I was on your side to begin with - my first post in this thread I actually told people L2P w/ skulk but after a few dozen hours on the new release, I have conceded that I was wrong, and that the skulk ground acceleration really was nerfed too heavily.
I agree with you that the marines should keep this dodging ability - but a skulk should at the very least match this mobility, and arguably be slightly superior.
What they can do is now remake all maps and future maps to have no wide areas then balanced!
I enjoyed skulk prior to "gorgeous" patch. Lately I'll get mood to play aliens then after a round or maybe two realize why I stop playing this game as much. The skulks aren't nearly as fun anymore. I've played marine more often lately just because it feels like I'm shooting fish in a barrel. Just hop around and watch the skulks try to catch up . (Also its annoying when marine bunny hops away faster then I can turn around and catch up. Not only can they do it once but they can do it twice in a row.)
I just don't get why skulks are slower in ns2 vs ns1. In ns1 my favorite form was skulk and ns2 it was as well until the latest patch. Now I just mostly com aliens/marines or just play marines because I realize how bad skulks are now. (by bad I mean the fun factor has dropped below my enjoyable level)
Btw reason why I think rines can hold 3 bases easily now is because most bases are a WIDE OPEN AREA minus marines buildings (some bases have a few pillars). Thus meaning skulks cannot "wall jump".
What they can do is now remake all maps and future maps to have no wide areas then balanced!
I enjoyed skulk prior to "gorgeous" patch. Lately I'll get mood to play aliens then after a round or maybe two realize why I stop playing this game as much. The skulks aren't nearly as fun anymore. I've played marine more often lately just because it feels like I'm shooting fish in a barrel. Just hop around and watch the skulks try to catch up . (Also its annoying when marine bunny hops away faster then I can turn around and catch up. Not only can they do it once but they can do it twice in a row.)
I just don't get why skulks are slower in ns2 vs ns1. In ns1 my favorite form was skulk and ns2 it was as well until the latest patch. Now I just mostly com aliens/marines or just play marines because i realize how bad skulks are now.
Btw reason why I think rines can hold 3 bases easily now is because most bases are a WIDE OPEN AREA minus marines buildings (some bases have a few pillars). Thus meaning skulks cannot "wall jump".
You outlined why I stopped playing as much as I use to. I load up the game go to RR see a pile of marines waiting to get into marines and then look at the player list and see stacks and ask myself if I really want to go alien. So I just end up exiting and maybe play another day since we all know why everyone pre free weekend wants to go marines. At least with the free weekend there were so many rookies that it did not matter though eventually they would have learned and the process would repeat.
I do not like going marine as much because it feels like a stomp as you said. When I jump away I see the skulks have so much trouble catching up as I finish them off I was actually surprised at how floaty they are. Besides once everyone learns the game/maps it becomes easier to know the skulk's usual locations and to constantly scan all the areas they could come from. Like many others are saying skulk is no longer fun anymore in my opinion. Slowing down the base melee class to become an easier target is just frustrating.
UWE seems to be taking the nerfing approach so I am sort of afraid again that they will just end up modifying marine movement if it is complained about too much. I agree with Xarius when he said "I feel they could probably tweak the numbers a little more and in general I'd rather they address the alien imbalances by messing with the economy and spawn times than with a core aspect of a lifeform." When alien was winning most of their games I was also afraid of class nerfs like the speed one because I thought skulk vs marines was fine so I had hoped they would take the economic route. Oh well.
Dodging a Skulk like a bull with strafe jumps is part of the melee fight. It needs skill to perform it the right way and it is easily counter-able by a good skulk. It's not that you can't kill good marines as skulk. It is difficult. But that's how it should be when playing against skilled opponents.
Summary: In my opinion the skulk vs marine gameplay is perfectly fine right now.
I wouldn't really use skill as a defense for that argument. When you add more skill to both sides, the marine/skulk balance becomes more and more lopsided. Go watch some competitive matches. You can put the best players in the world on both sides and early game marines are going to win four out of five 1v1 engagements. I haven't watched the latest games but I'm pretty sure it hasn't changed since it's been like that since NS1. Then aliens get fades and it will flip the other way around. So I guess that's just the nature of the game.
Problem is that even one of those players will absolutely destroy any pub server. It doesn't help that most of them seem to view skulks or the whole alien side as a chore and will never join aliens if given the choice.
Dodging a Skulk like a bull with strafe jumps is part of the melee fight. It needs skill to perform it the right way and it is easily counter-able by a good skulk. It's not that you can't kill good marines as skulk. It is difficult. But that's how it should be when playing against skilled opponents.
Summary: In my opinion the skulk vs marine gameplay is perfectly fine right now.
I wouldn't really use skill as a defense for that argument. When you add more skill to both sides, the marine/skulk balance becomes more and more lopsided. Go watch some competitive matches. You can put the best players in the world on both sides and early game marines are going to win four out of five 1v1 engagements. I haven't watched the latest games but I'm pretty sure it hasn't changed since it's been like that since NS1. Then aliens get fades and it will flip the other way around. So I guess that's just the nature of the game.
Problem is that even one of those players will absolutely destroy any pub server. It doesn't help that most of them seem to view skulks or the whole alien side as a chore and will never join aliens if given the choice.
Skulks are meant to have the mobility advantage, making it easier to outnumber marines more of the time. Don't think of it as a 1v1, think of it as a 1.7 v 1.
This reply is to the main poster...
I've noticed this a lot...a very good player will easily take out a skulk without the skulk even reaching the target...What I noticed is that when I play skulk I now use tactics to kill marines....holding down shift early game and hiding,
The fact is...it will never be completely balanced but you just got to find new approaches and new methods to win battles
If you fail try try again...but don't just aimlessly try...actually use different techniques/spins jumping patterns and hopefully the marine will fall...
Dodging a Skulk like a bull with strafe jumps is part of the melee fight. It needs skill to perform it the right way and it is easily counter-able by a good skulk. It's not that you can't kill good marines as skulk. It is difficult. But that's how it should be when playing against skilled opponents.
Summary: In my opinion the skulk vs marine gameplay is perfectly fine right now.
I wouldn't really use skill as a defense for that argument. When you add more skill to both sides, the marine/skulk balance becomes more and more lopsided. Go watch some competitive matches. You can put the best players in the world on both sides and early game marines are going to win four out of five 1v1 engagements. I haven't watched the latest games but I'm pretty sure it hasn't changed since it's been like that since NS1. Then aliens get fades and it will flip the other way around. So I guess that's just the nature of the game.
Problem is that even one of those players will absolutely destroy any pub server. It doesn't help that most of them seem to view skulks or the whole alien side as a chore and will never join aliens if given the choice.
Skulks are meant to have the mobility advantage, making it easier to outnumber marines more of the time. Don't think of it as a 1v1, think of it as a 1.7 v 1.
Except between sprinting, the faster marine respawn rate, beacon, phasegates and the wall jumping nerf aliens really don't have the mobility advantage. It's nearly always equal numbers in important battles.
This is confusing. Why should an ambush character that can climb on walls be buffed with movement performance so they can stay and the ground longer and operate in a manner they weren't even designed to do?
Everyone is argueing over the worst possible way to play skulk. Why would you ever be running in circles or strafing around a marine??? That means you are on the ground the whole time. Of course you're going to get killed. There's no way thats going to work against a decent marine. And why should it?
I just want walljumping to be decent again. :< So that there's actually something to do while traversing the map for the umpteenth time. Nowdays I just collide with stuff and spam space. ...and someone sticking to the floor runs past me.
This is confusing. Why should an ambush character that can climb on walls be buffed with movement performance so they can stay and the ground longer and operate in a manner they weren't even designed to do?
Everyone is argueing over the worst possible way to play skulk. Why would you ever be running in circles or strafing around a marine??? That means you are on the ground the whole time. Of course you're going to get killed. There's no way thats going to work against a decent marine. And why should it?
Not asking for a buff, just a rethink on the recent 50% nerf to skulk acceleration. What you are describing isn't the issue, and that didn't work before the patch and doesn't work after it. The skulk should be the master of close combat. Why should the marine have better maneuverability at that range? It was perfect before they decided to brick the skulks.
DC_DarklingJoin Date: 2003-07-10Member: 18068Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver
Yes you can wait sometimes.. if a marine is building he is attackable.
If a marine is watching the pillar he thinks you are on, go some place else..
I have never ever experienced the problem you are describing as a actual problem. Yes they strafe, yes its faster moving, get of the floor. It does help.
Im up for agreeing that a skulk should be master melee, but its a overstatement to say that its a actual problem and that skulks cant kill anything these days.
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
edited March 2013
So just to clarify:
Those who dislike the current mechanics want that marine to be unable to effectively dodge the skulk if the skulk is able to close that distance gap?
I would disagree with that, as that would produce a very binary mechanic whereas the marine is unable to contest it's own survival based on map design. Rounding a tight spaced corner would mean random death to marines who otherwise could have employed a well timed dodge.
Soft counters are better,
as in "skulk has the advantage when closing the distance gap, but skillful reaction times, movement prediction, and positioning can still make the difference." Previously it felt like quick ground skulks were able to negate even the best dodging efforts.
Not suggesting the current implementation couldn't use refinement though.
Tldr: I think the marine skulk dance/approach is one of the most enjoyable and skilled mechanics in the game, so as long as that's preserved somewhat in that proximity isn't an instant win, adjust away.
I have to admit that I have a great deal of trouble understanding what the fuss is about, since I haven't encountered any unkillable marines myself, and win the majority of my 1v1 engagements as a skulk before I go lerk.
I also win the majority of my 1v1 engagements while I'm a marine. This is what I observe: beyond the skulks who prefer to simply beeline at me on the floor (always a mistake), I also notice how certain skulks try to 'match' my jump/jukes by jumping at where I was standing just before I jumped out of the way. This is usually a bad idea, since it basically just creates a nice arc I can shoot at while they fly through the air beside me. See, since I have a rifle, I can more easily shoot in more directions than they can bite (even while I'm moving), and at a greater range. They should understand this.
The skulks I consistently have trouble with are 1) those willing to ambush me (which is ALWAYS a good idea...especially for skulks who are willing to reset their ambush mid-fight by using the map geometry advantageously (e.g. climbing up a pillar beyond my sight and trying to surprise me again)) and 2) those who mix up their close-range strategies. Dangerous skulks take full advantage of their movement capabilities, whereas middle-of-the-pack skulks play the melee range game by juking as if they were marines.
What do I mean by #2 - mixing up close-range strategies? Well, the hop-hop-hop-hop method of 'catching' me is never going to work in a skulk's favor unless it has a ton of momentum built up through expert walljumping, because a skulk's cone of 'fire' is far more limited than a marine's. Put otherwise, when you miss a bite yet commit yourself to a given airborne trajectory, you waste a good deal of time before you can 'reset' for another bite attempt. This is the time my juking earns me, and it's this key window of time I'll use to kill you.
(Using Leap is usually the exception to this rule, because the burst of speed and distance covered is enough to put you out of quite-so-easy tracking range. Using Leap defensively is usually enough to avoid damage, even if it won't necessarily set you up for an additional attack immediately. The good thing about skulks is that a Leap should be enough to get you to a location where you can then set up for another attack, or get away completely.)
Skulks need to stop thinking that hopping at a juking marine once the gap has been closed is always a good idea. Marines do it because it's the single best method by which they can avoid a skulk barreling at them. As a skulk, though, sometimes it's better to stay on the ground once you're already up close and personal. Jumping should only be used if it'll put you in an advantageous position; close-quarters combat isn't just about attempting to rapidly out-damage the marine, and is actually sometimes about avoiding damage altogether (you need a little defense to be offensively successful if a marine knows what he's doing).
Once you're up close, predict where the marine is going to land once he commits himself to a juke-jump (since predicting where you'll be is exactly what he'll do to you if you jump around like a fool), and quickly navigate away from his likely cone of fire (which is determined by 1) which way he's facing and 2) which way he's jumping). You can do this through a combination of movement techniques: leaping, jumping (sparingly), strafing, circling, climbing, etc. Your goal should be to disorient the marine, since the marine has only one real method of disorienting you, and it's far more predictable.
People get angry about marines using the one defensive maneuver they have - juking - because marines can still 'stream' damage while doing so, especially if the skulk tries to follow the marine's jumping pattern. This is because, as stated, the standard marine's equipment gives a ranged advantage, and defensive jumping is designed to keep range between you and the target. Most skulk defensive tactics aren't great for dealing damage, but they are great at setting you up to deal damage by allowing you to avoid the marine's fire. Skulks deal burst-damage -- think of your teeth as if they were a weaker variant of shotgun. You want to be surgical with your bites.
Furthermore, a skulk needs to listen just as much as a marine does. Learn the sound of a full clip being expended. Get a feel for how many shots are left in that pistol. Take advantage of the fact that if a marine thinks you're gone for even a second, he's probably going to reload. Many a marine has been slaughtered while reloading, but a skulk runs out of 'bite' in only the rarest of circumstances. That's a pretty key asymmetry. A skulk playing close-quarters defense successfully almost always implies a marine is playing close-quarters offense unsuccessfully, and unlike skulks, marines who fail with their weapons quickly become vulnerable.
Edit: While a shotgunning marine changes the 'streamed' vs. 'burst' damage mechanic to 'burst' vs. 'burst', you have to keep in mind that those shotguns are worth 20 personal resources, and require really twitchy aim to be preserved if the marine gets ambushed. That's 2/3rds of a lerk. Good lerks can utterly dominate a marine team, and the alien economy is already much more forgiving than the marine economy, so...
So just to clarify:
Those who dislike the current mechanics want that marine to be unable to effectively dodge the skulk if the skulk is able to close that distance gap?
No, they want the skulk to have the advantage (or at least an even chance) in close combat. Just like how the marine has the absolute advantage at range.
I would disagree with that, as that would produce a very binary mechanic whereas the marine is unable to contest it's own survival based on map design. Rounding a tight spaced corner would mean random death to marines who otherwise could have employed a well timed dodge.
No, marines could dodge before, it just wasn't a freewin. Also, rounding any corner can currently mean instant death for a skulk. So can rounding any corner and being a whole room away if you are running from the marine.
Soft counters are better,
as in "skulk has the advantage when closing the distance gap, but skillful reaction times, movement prediction, and positioning can still make the difference." Previously it felt like quick ground skulks were able to negate even the best dodging efforts.
I don't agree that was the case previously, and even if it was, this is close combat. If the skulk made it in range of the marine without being gunned down then they should have the close combat advantage.
Tldr: I think the marine skulk dance/approach is one of the most enjoyable and skilled mechanics in the game, so as long as that's preserved somewhat in that proximity isn't an instant win, adjust away.
Proximity wasn't an instant win for anyone before. If anything it was marine favored as the amount of bullets needed to kill a skulk can be expended faster than the minimum 3 bites can land. Now it's practically an instant win for the marine if the marine can aim and strafe jump correctly.
Comments
That being said, I do believe people are somewhat exaggerating how 'poor' skulks are. But the fact that many players are perceiving it to be a problem is cause enough for alarm.
Personally I'd rather they beef up skulk movement again and just make skulks weaker at first but scale better throughout the game. (See Sewlek's balance mod)
The more I use it, the more I don't want to use it. Once you get a shotgun, you are an unstoppable machine.
You don't get it. Everyone has this problem because it is a matter of physics. If the marine strafe jumps in a direction the skulk isn't traveling in then the lack of skulk acceleration makes it physically impossible to close the distance before a good marine will gun you down. This is a fact. No amount of "getting better" will let you close the gap in that situation.
Even a good aimer has a lot more trouble reacquiring a target if the target is moving near random at objects on ceiling & wall.
Yes it takes longer, but you as a skulk will live.
Added bonus that the dropping down helps a bit on speed.
You don't get it either. Your "solution" is for a totally different problem.
Just saying that while what you describe is by and large the norm, there are a few unbelievable skulks out there who can still hold their own against top level marines at present.
Listen to this man
This game mechanic is frustrating and not fun because:
- there is nothing YOU can, as a player, do immediately (not talking about changing lifeforms or becoming a super bouncy pro Skulk or running away after every bite)
- you have to rely on the Marine being not good enough. nothing you can influence <- that sucks!
This thread is NOT "nerf Marines".
This thread is NOT "Skulk vs Marine balance should be changed towards Skulk".
This thread is about "this particular game mechanic is frustrating and not fun for Skulk players, because the player him-/herself cannot influence a certain situation because of Skulk physics".
It's a gameplay dead end.
It's not very fun as a Marine as well, it just feels cheap.
Close combat is the part where your fps skill is measured. Prediction, aim, movement all come together in it. As a skulk the most important part is to get the 1st hit before marine gets hits on you; that way you can still have hp for his dodges to chew him down. It's so damn boring to play vs public marines that just stand there when you go on them. This mechanic should stay in ns definitely and even be encouraged. If we get the balance mod's marine and skulk movement, the skill difference between players in close combat would really shine and now that would be very interesting and fun to play as you got more speed in place and therefore more options in close combat.
Skulk could use more ns1 style adadad ground dodge speed but otherwise it's fine.
people state that marines jumping and hopping around cause a gap which a skulk can not bridge and thus can not get in melee range.
I state this is wrong. Using some near random jumping & climbing, almost all but the very top marines must reacquire aim. Use this time to close the gap.
Also as they need to reacquire where you are, they can jump in the wrong direction, and if you ambush them from above.. you can easily compensate.
The best thing to do when a marine starts hopping is to climb, hide if needed, and attack again.
It's mostly about the side-stepping. Using nothing but the A and D keys, you can achieve some weirdly long distances between you and the Skulk. Added bonus if you constantly switch around the rotation of your circle strafing.
This is simply incorrect, I'm afraid. The point is the marine should not be able to out maneuver a skulk once both are within melee range. Yes you can compensate for this by climbing walls etc but in a wide open room this is often not possible. So what happens is two equally skilled players could meet, one marine one skulk, the skulk can ambush for the first bite, possibly land a second, but the marine can then press W + A or W + D to side step and then jump which will give him the ability to create a gap that the skulk cannot close, even if the skulk sees the side step coming in advance he cannot keep up as his acceleration rate is lower than that of the marine. So the marine creates this gap, and the skulk now must either run straight at him which is certain death, or try to move erratically which may make the marine miss but also gives him more time to aim and prepare his next evade.
I was on your side to begin with - my first post in this thread I actually told people L2P w/ skulk but after a few dozen hours on the new release, I have conceded that I was wrong, and that the skulk ground acceleration really was nerfed too heavily.
I agree with you that the marines should keep this dodging ability - but a skulk should at the very least match this mobility, and arguably be slightly superior.
What they can do is now remake all maps and future maps to have no wide areas then balanced!
I enjoyed skulk prior to "gorgeous" patch. Lately I'll get mood to play aliens then after a round or maybe two realize why I stop playing this game as much. The skulks aren't nearly as fun anymore. I've played marine more often lately just because it feels like I'm shooting fish in a barrel. Just hop around and watch the skulks try to catch up
I just don't get why skulks are slower in ns2 vs ns1. In ns1 my favorite form was skulk and ns2 it was as well until the latest patch. Now I just mostly com aliens/marines or just play marines because I realize how bad skulks are now. (by bad I mean the fun factor has dropped below my enjoyable level)
Btw reason why I think rines can hold 3 bases easily now is because most bases are a WIDE OPEN AREA minus marines buildings (some bases have a few pillars). Thus meaning skulks cannot "wall jump".
You outlined why I stopped playing as much as I use to. I load up the game go to RR see a pile of marines waiting to get into marines and then look at the player list and see stacks and ask myself if I really want to go alien. So I just end up exiting and maybe play another day since we all know why everyone pre free weekend wants to go marines. At least with the free weekend there were so many rookies that it did not matter though eventually they would have learned and the process would repeat.
I do not like going marine as much because it feels like a stomp as you said. When I jump away I see the skulks have so much trouble catching up as I finish them off I was actually surprised at how floaty they are. Besides once everyone learns the game/maps it becomes easier to know the skulk's usual locations and to constantly scan all the areas they could come from. Like many others are saying skulk is no longer fun anymore in my opinion. Slowing down the base melee class to become an easier target is just frustrating.
UWE seems to be taking the nerfing approach so I am sort of afraid again that they will just end up modifying marine movement if it is complained about too much. I agree with Xarius when he said "I feel they could probably tweak the numbers a little more and in general I'd rather they address the alien imbalances by messing with the economy and spawn times than with a core aspect of a lifeform." When alien was winning most of their games I was also afraid of class nerfs like the speed one because I thought skulk vs marines was fine so I had hoped they would take the economic route. Oh well.
I wouldn't really use skill as a defense for that argument. When you add more skill to both sides, the marine/skulk balance becomes more and more lopsided. Go watch some competitive matches. You can put the best players in the world on both sides and early game marines are going to win four out of five 1v1 engagements. I haven't watched the latest games but I'm pretty sure it hasn't changed since it's been like that since NS1. Then aliens get fades and it will flip the other way around. So I guess that's just the nature of the game.
Problem is that even one of those players will absolutely destroy any pub server. It doesn't help that most of them seem to view skulks or the whole alien side as a chore and will never join aliens if given the choice.
Skulks are meant to have the mobility advantage, making it easier to outnumber marines more of the time. Don't think of it as a 1v1, think of it as a 1.7 v 1.
I've got it:
Reduce energy used by leap
BAM!
Now you might have arguments against this, however, you cannot argue against it being awesome.
I've noticed this a lot...a very good player will easily take out a skulk without the skulk even reaching the target...What I noticed is that when I play skulk I now use tactics to kill marines....holding down shift early game and hiding,
The fact is...it will never be completely balanced but you just got to find new approaches and new methods to win battles
If you fail try try again...but don't just aimlessly try...actually use different techniques/spins jumping patterns and hopefully the marine will fall...
Cheers! See you in game
-<h^2> hewa
Except between sprinting, the faster marine respawn rate, beacon, phasegates and the wall jumping nerf aliens really don't have the mobility advantage. It's nearly always equal numbers in important battles.
And why would you rush in a big room without 0 cover as a skulk? Wait till the sucker of a marine is either busy or closer to a object
Everyone is argueing over the worst possible way to play skulk. Why would you ever be running in circles or strafing around a marine??? That means you are on the ground the whole time. Of course you're going to get killed. There's no way thats going to work against a decent marine. And why should it?
Not asking for a buff, just a rethink on the recent 50% nerf to skulk acceleration. What you are describing isn't the issue, and that didn't work before the patch and doesn't work after it. The skulk should be the master of close combat. Why should the marine have better maneuverability at that range? It was perfect before they decided to brick the skulks.
Because skulks need to attack. You can't wait for an ambush for every engagement. Also you still don't get it.
If a marine is watching the pillar he thinks you are on, go some place else..
I have never ever experienced the problem you are describing as a actual problem. Yes they strafe, yes its faster moving, get of the floor. It does help.
Im up for agreeing that a skulk should be master melee, but its a overstatement to say that its a actual problem and that skulks cant kill anything these days.
Those who dislike the current mechanics want that marine to be unable to effectively dodge the skulk if the skulk is able to close that distance gap?
I would disagree with that, as that would produce a very binary mechanic whereas the marine is unable to contest it's own survival based on map design. Rounding a tight spaced corner would mean random death to marines who otherwise could have employed a well timed dodge.
Soft counters are better,
as in "skulk has the advantage when closing the distance gap, but skillful reaction times, movement prediction, and positioning can still make the difference." Previously it felt like quick ground skulks were able to negate even the best dodging efforts.
Not suggesting the current implementation couldn't use refinement though.
Tldr: I think the marine skulk dance/approach is one of the most enjoyable and skilled mechanics in the game, so as long as that's preserved somewhat in that proximity isn't an instant win, adjust away.
I also win the majority of my 1v1 engagements while I'm a marine. This is what I observe: beyond the skulks who prefer to simply beeline at me on the floor (always a mistake), I also notice how certain skulks try to 'match' my jump/jukes by jumping at where I was standing just before I jumped out of the way. This is usually a bad idea, since it basically just creates a nice arc I can shoot at while they fly through the air beside me. See, since I have a rifle, I can more easily shoot in more directions than they can bite (even while I'm moving), and at a greater range. They should understand this.
The skulks I consistently have trouble with are 1) those willing to ambush me (which is ALWAYS a good idea...especially for skulks who are willing to reset their ambush mid-fight by using the map geometry advantageously (e.g. climbing up a pillar beyond my sight and trying to surprise me again)) and 2) those who mix up their close-range strategies. Dangerous skulks take full advantage of their movement capabilities, whereas middle-of-the-pack skulks play the melee range game by juking as if they were marines.
What do I mean by #2 - mixing up close-range strategies? Well, the hop-hop-hop-hop method of 'catching' me is never going to work in a skulk's favor unless it has a ton of momentum built up through expert walljumping, because a skulk's cone of 'fire' is far more limited than a marine's. Put otherwise, when you miss a bite yet commit yourself to a given airborne trajectory, you waste a good deal of time before you can 'reset' for another bite attempt. This is the time my juking earns me, and it's this key window of time I'll use to kill you.
(Using Leap is usually the exception to this rule, because the burst of speed and distance covered is enough to put you out of quite-so-easy tracking range. Using Leap defensively is usually enough to avoid damage, even if it won't necessarily set you up for an additional attack immediately. The good thing about skulks is that a Leap should be enough to get you to a location where you can then set up for another attack, or get away completely.)
Skulks need to stop thinking that hopping at a juking marine once the gap has been closed is always a good idea. Marines do it because it's the single best method by which they can avoid a skulk barreling at them. As a skulk, though, sometimes it's better to stay on the ground once you're already up close and personal. Jumping should only be used if it'll put you in an advantageous position; close-quarters combat isn't just about attempting to rapidly out-damage the marine, and is actually sometimes about avoiding damage altogether (you need a little defense to be offensively successful if a marine knows what he's doing).
Once you're up close, predict where the marine is going to land once he commits himself to a juke-jump (since predicting where you'll be is exactly what he'll do to you if you jump around like a fool), and quickly navigate away from his likely cone of fire (which is determined by 1) which way he's facing and 2) which way he's jumping). You can do this through a combination of movement techniques: leaping, jumping (sparingly), strafing, circling, climbing, etc. Your goal should be to disorient the marine, since the marine has only one real method of disorienting you, and it's far more predictable.
People get angry about marines using the one defensive maneuver they have - juking - because marines can still 'stream' damage while doing so, especially if the skulk tries to follow the marine's jumping pattern. This is because, as stated, the standard marine's equipment gives a ranged advantage, and defensive jumping is designed to keep range between you and the target. Most skulk defensive tactics aren't great for dealing damage, but they are great at setting you up to deal damage by allowing you to avoid the marine's fire. Skulks deal burst-damage -- think of your teeth as if they were a weaker variant of shotgun. You want to be surgical with your bites.
Furthermore, a skulk needs to listen just as much as a marine does. Learn the sound of a full clip being expended. Get a feel for how many shots are left in that pistol. Take advantage of the fact that if a marine thinks you're gone for even a second, he's probably going to reload. Many a marine has been slaughtered while reloading, but a skulk runs out of 'bite' in only the rarest of circumstances. That's a pretty key asymmetry. A skulk playing close-quarters defense successfully almost always implies a marine is playing close-quarters offense unsuccessfully, and unlike skulks, marines who fail with their weapons quickly become vulnerable.
Edit: While a shotgunning marine changes the 'streamed' vs. 'burst' damage mechanic to 'burst' vs. 'burst', you have to keep in mind that those shotguns are worth 20 personal resources, and require really twitchy aim to be preserved if the marine gets ambushed. That's 2/3rds of a lerk. Good lerks can utterly dominate a marine team, and the alien economy is already much more forgiving than the marine economy, so...
Me either, but it doesn't change the fact that marines having more maneuverability in close combat is not fun and is just plain retarded.
No, they want the skulk to have the advantage (or at least an even chance) in close combat. Just like how the marine has the absolute advantage at range.
No, marines could dodge before, it just wasn't a freewin. Also, rounding any corner can currently mean instant death for a skulk. So can rounding any corner and being a whole room away if you are running from the marine.
I don't agree that was the case previously, and even if it was, this is close combat. If the skulk made it in range of the marine without being gunned down then they should have the close combat advantage.
Proximity wasn't an instant win for anyone before. If anything it was marine favored as the amount of bullets needed to kill a skulk can be expended faster than the minimum 3 bites can land. Now it's practically an instant win for the marine if the marine can aim and strafe jump correctly.