matsoMaster of PatchesJoin Date: 2002-11-05Member: 7000Members, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, Squad Five Gold, Reinforced - Shadow, NS2 Community Developer
edited March 2013
As someone mentioned, I'm not an UWE employee - I get my yellow color from my previous association as a hired gun for improving Spark Engine performance (as well as the non-employee with the most patches accepted into the game).
As is obvious from my Member#, I played a lot of NS1, and when I say skulk/marine balance being close to what is desired, it is coloured by what I remember of the skulk/marine balance in NS1 (the really close to 50% balance in 8v8 games reported from 243 is also nice).
Now, it _is_ challenging (or as it is usually felt - frustrating) to play as a skulk vs non-noob marines. I know that feeling - in NS1, aliens needed a lot more teamwork to win compared to marines, and that challenge meant that winning came with the knowledge that you had won by playing well, both on the strategic and tactical level.
Personally, I feel the current version of NS2 is getting close to that same sweet feeling. That being said, there are plenty of things to improve and fix ... but that's no surprise - the performance limitations has hidden many issues that needs attending to over the next few patches (like the alien spawn system and large server balance).
Thank you jesus. It's nothing personal, at least you were kind enough to put your thoughts out there for us to read. I still have to disagree though, I feel like it is moving away from that feeling in a very big way, and that is coming from an expert. I'd hate to be a newbie right now, because the current state of skulks must be driving many players away. I personally very rarely even bother playing marines right now, because it is just way too easy.
Above all else, it seems counterproductive to make the game less fun in such a direct way in order to achieve win-rate balance. It's a shame that the free weekend came when it did, as I'm sure a better alien experience overall would have persuaded more people to purchase. Let's face it, while the exposure during it seemed relatively good (almost 10k concurrent players) compared to the regular player counts (~1500 on a good day), there hasn't been much of a followup gain in community size judging by the steam stats. Fun needs to be paramount if you want to grow the community beyond passing out gimmicks, ala Gorgeous.
As a side point, more concentration on smart balance decisions that make the game more fun, and less on the competitive scene, might be a good way to look at things. While the game isn't as dead as some people are starting to suggest elsewhere, it's far from where it should be in terms of concurrent players. There is only one reason for that --- it needs to be more fun.
matsoMaster of PatchesJoin Date: 2002-11-05Member: 7000Members, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, Squad Five Gold, Reinforced - Shadow, NS2 Community Developer
(like the alien spawn system and large server balance).
What's wrong with the Alien spawn system?
Doesn't scale with teamsize and have an extremly long minimum spawn time for aliens. Which was ok when skulks killed 1.3 marines for every skulk, not when it's reversed as in 243.
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
edited March 2013
Marine accel being 100 is too much I think..
I know nobody likes a nerf but the tracking benefits and lack of exploiting animation oddities brings the skulk to predictable movement, closer to ns1 skulk bhopping days..
Not to mention marine accel was increased originally to keep up with the skulk's.
So if skulk accel is now 64 , why not make marine accel the same? Level the playing field.
I know nobody likes a nerf but the tracking benefits and lack of exploiting animation oddities brings the skulk to predictable movement closer to ns1 skulk bhopping days..
Not to mention marine accel was increased originally to keep up with the skulk's.
So if skulk accel is now 64 , why not make marine accel the same? Level the playing field.
Could work in theory, but then this raises the whole "fun" thing again. It could be considered lowering the marines fun to get balance, rather than buffing the skulk agility (and making it more fun) to compete with the current early game marine.
I wouldnt say 100% no to your suggested chance, but I'd much rather see a skulk agility increase instead.
I know nobody likes a nerf but the tracking benefits and lack of exploiting animation oddities brings the skulk to predictable movement, closer to ns1 skulk bhopping days..
Not to mention marine accel was increased originally to keep up with the skulk's.
So if skulk accel is now 64 , why not make marine accel the same? Level the playing field.
I'd agree with a mild reduction of marine accell down to maybe 90 and bring skulk up to 80 ish . But don't totally nerf marine as the dodging is very much needed for late game battles vs fade / onos.
I'd agree with a mild reduction of marine accell down to maybe 90 and bring skulk up to 80 ish . But don't totally nerf marine as the dodging is very much needed for late game battles vs fade / onos.
Introduce a researchable speed upgrade in the Arms Lab then. Call it Stim Pack.
I'd agree with a mild reduction of marine accell down to maybe 90 and bring skulk up to 80 ish . But don't totally nerf marine as the dodging is very much needed for late game battles vs fade / onos.
Introduce a researchable speed upgrade in the Arms Lab then. Call it Stim Pack.
huh? If the point of the reduction is to level the playing field, why would something be introduced that would just uneven it again? ><
As a side point, more concentration on smart balance decisions that make the game more fun, and less on the competitive scene, might be a good way to look at things. While the game isn't as dead as some people are starting to suggest elsewhere, it's far from where it should be in terms of concurrent players. There is only one reason for that --- it needs to be more fun.
Skulk is still fun - but may seem less fun if you were used to abusing the ridiculous old system where you got 12m/s leap speed with wall jumping and ridiculous air control with little to no thought or skill.
I would wager performance is the biggest reason.
Fun and more gameplay depth will continue to come as they improve the game but right now I think most people can't play or are turned away by poor FPS performance unless you play 6v6 on NSL maps.
Marine accel is fine imo - if anything it needs to be improved when jetpacks come up. Those things are monstrously bad for anything but chasing down lifeforms like Onos or Fades - in actual combat it adds very little against a good player. It's worth the 10Pres per say.. but I'd like to see it a little more expensive but closer to the NS1 jetpack in terms of acceleration and control.
I'd agree with a mild reduction of marine accell down to maybe 90 and bring skulk up to 80 ish . But don't totally nerf marine as the dodging is very much needed for late game battles vs fade / onos.
Introduce a researchable speed upgrade in the Arms Lab then. Call it Stim Pack.
huh? If the point of the reduction is to level the playing field, why would something be introduced that would just uneven it again? ><
Exactly. It is just like Joederp said. Nerfing marine movement changes the balance agains 5 lifeforms. Yeah skulks have more advantage, but then when they evolve there would be a much larger gap in the balance of gameplay.
Wow, never thought I would see the day Ironhorse joined the cause. The majority of people seem to want a skulk based fix rather than a marine based one though.
Skulk is still fun - but may seem less fun if you were used to abusing the ridiculous old system where you got 12m/s leap speed with wall jumping and ridiculous air control with little to no thought or skill.
Hadn't really even considered leap, what happened to that is too depressing to think about. I'm more concerned about early game currently. I don't agree about jetpacks not being that great against skulks though. Before the patch, maybe I'd agree against a very good skulk who could stick on a jetpacking marine. Versus brick-skulk though, I'd say they are ridiculous, as late game skulk is just all around terrible.
That's definitely a big one too. I'd expect that more people might be inclined to overlook somewhat of a performance issue if the game was more fun though, especially given the (perhaps over-exaggerated) promises the devs keep putting out there about improving on performance. Maybe not the people with terrible performance of course, but some of the others.
While I think glissy said it best in one of these threads, the base alien life form is not fun to play. The movement is clunky, the life form feels weak, and it only gets worse as the game goes on. Carapace skulks vs base lmgs (~2:00 - 5:00 of game time) is about the only time that skulks don't feel like fodder.
And while the skulk is definitely less agile than the marine, he is still significantly faster (5 speed vs 7 speed, or ~40% faster). As a skulk, you shouldn't be getting juked for more than a bite or two and if you are then you are being greatly out played. I like having lower ground and air control as it rewards accurate biting and punishes drawn out melee battles. It also adds an element of positioning to melee combat that isn't present if skulks can just W-move and instantly respond to marine dodging. I wish the wall jumping was better.
Many of the complaints in this thread feel grossly exaggerated. One guy complained about a marine juking multiple skulks for 10 seconds. Another complains about how 1v1s are literally impossible to win as skulks. Even others complain that marines have an advantage even if the skulk is in melee combat with them. I, frankly, think these complaints are ridiculous.
I think the current problems with skulk are not a huge imbalance as claimed in this thread, but result from a lack of fun combined with a relatively low skill ceiling. Skulks feel weak, they feel sluggish, they don't scale well as well as LMGs with skill, and they don't scale as well as marines in general. Aliens can still win with teamwork and coordination, but it still feels bad for the individual.
I disagree with portions of this post, but agree with others. Mainly, I don't find the skulk any less fun to play, and I'm not sure the skill ceiling is as low as you describe--I just think the ceiling is held up by a greater number of variables (i.e. mechanical aim probably means less to a truly exceptional skulk than it does to a truly exceptional marine, whereas a fundamental knowledge of how your player model reacts to map geometry is exceptionally more important than it is to a marine). Perhaps this is because I never had to change my style very much on account of the patches.
Almost everything else matches my experience, however. The complaints in this thread are incredibly hyperbolic.
When a skulk lunges at a marine, the skulk should more or less be committing to that attack. While a marine is capable of attacking while dodging (thanks to, you know, guns), the skulk is more commonly forced to either defensively reset or attack, with opportunities to do both at the same time being fewer. While certain offensive movements can be played more defensively (e.g. attacking from behind when able, or snapping your jaws as you fly by) they still put you in harm's way.
As I said elsewhere, a large part of the problem being described in this thread is that skulks enter protracted melee battles where they continually hop in an attempt to catch the juking marine, which is very, very poor play. They get upset about this because they feel something along the lines of "well, a marine's chance to kill me should have been before I closed the distance," which is also silly, since skulks have great burst speed and there are a million scenarios where this mechanic would mean a free kill. More sensibly, the closer you are to a marine, the easier you will be to hit if the marine is aiming at you (but really, this applies most often if you hop around in nice, sloping arcs toward where the marine was standing a second ago). The solution is to not play hopscotch in the middle of a fight.
A combination of strafing, circling, predicting and then lunging is almost always preferred, to say nothing of using map geometry to reset your ambush whenever possible. I know that you know this, GORGEous, but many players seem not to. Skulks absolutely have the advantage once they close the gap. I agree with IronHorse as well--how often is it that you're really in a scenario where there's nothing to hide behind? As a non-carapace skulk I've taken down five or six marines in crossroads on more than one occasion thanks to those beautiful, beautiful pillars.
A skulk absolutely shouldn't be able to instantly respond to a marine dodge, which was the case before. It wasn't only mechanically bonkers--it also resulted in an animation explosion which further gimped the marine.
I also think that the only thing that really needs to change is an improved walljump mechanic. That's what's going to help the skulk pull off the strike once they commit.
I'd agree with a mild reduction of marine accell down to maybe 90 and bring skulk up to 80 ish . But don't totally nerf marine as the dodging is very much needed for late game battles vs fade / onos.
Introduce a researchable speed upgrade in the Arms Lab then. Call it Stim Pack.
huh? If the point of the reduction is to level the playing field, why would something be introduced that would just uneven it again? ><
You need to make marines slower to balance against Skulks. But later you need them to be on par to dodge Fades and Onos. So you nerf marines in the early game to be balanced against early alien lifeforms but provide an option for the lategame to tech up against lategame lifeforms.
I'd rather they not simply nerf marines, that will just result in watering down gameplay once again. The skulk nerf was a little drastic looking at those numbers, surely they can be tweaked upward a little without necessarily putting aliens back at 65% winrates again? And at the risk of repeating myself, even if they do, enjoyment still comes before balance. This is also why lowering spawn times isn't going to cut it, having to wait less between deaths doesn't actually do anything to make the skulk more fun to play... (I.e I'm sure most will take better skulks with longer spawn times over worse skulks with fast spawn times any day)
UWE needs to find a way to balance the two sides without affecting the enjoyment factor of it all, failure to do so is a lot more detrimental to the longevity of this game than any imbalance is.
Which again is why they need to look at meta-level balance like the economy.
Snares. Place-able by Skulks. Tier 2 upgrade. Problem solved.
Would act like a trip line or pressure plate and would snatch up the marine. Snare would have no timer and is considered structure based hp/armor comparable to a hydra (>1 clip). Skulk can bite through Snare. Snare can only hold up to 1 marine. Scales skulk strategic skill, viability, and fun factor. Snaring marines is fun as shit.
I'd rather they not simply nerf marines, that will just result in watering down gameplay once again. The skulk nerf was a little drastic looking at those numbers, surely they can be tweaked upward a little without necessarily putting aliens back at 65% winrates again? And at the risk of repeating myself, even if they do, enjoyment still comes before balance. This is also why lowering spawn times isn't going to cut it, having to wait less between deaths doesn't actually do anything to make the skulk more fun to play... (I.e I'm sure most will take better skulks with longer spawn times over worse skulks with fast spawn times any day)
UWE needs to find a way to balance the two sides without affecting the enjoyment factor of it all, failure to do so is a lot more detrimental to the longevity of this game than any imbalance is.
Which again is why they need to look at meta-level balance like the economy.
While i agree with your post overall, i would say a small change could be appropriate given how it was previously jacked up in order to compete with skulks in the first place. Something like say 85 instead of 100.
Incidentally, this might provide a slight buff to the other class weapons as well that can be dodged : Gorge spit, fade swipe, lerk bite .. which honestly i think would improve that "fun factor" slightly for those classes - something i think that is needed.
But thats a very subjective opinion so i understand if others don't agree.
I just wanted to point out the fear of the nerf bat can produce separation anxiety and aversion, despite it's benefits sometimes (As Locklear pointed out) And that there are sensible compromises.
That all being said.. the BT mod should be played more and given more feedback in regards to this subject, in case it is ever made official.
(Hint: Marines cannot change direction as fast as they can in Vanilla!! hehe )
I feel like marine movement finally feels 'right' and am thus more amenable to giving skulks something like an improved walljump mechanic (since I think the current implementation is lackluster, anyway). I say this as someone who definitely doesn't favor playing marines (I split my time evenly in pubs). I also find skulks really fun to play, so...
Skulk is still fun - but may seem less fun if you were used to abusing the ridiculous old system where you got 12m/s leap speed with wall jumping and ridiculous air control with little to no thought or skill.
Completely agreed about the old system's air control being ridiculously friendly to the skulk. I actually think it's the change from such a standard that's causing people to exaggerate their claims in this thread. Things feel pretty fair to me right now.
Marine accel is fine imo - if anything it needs to be improved when jetpacks come up. Those things are monstrously bad for anything but chasing down lifeforms like Onos or Fades - in actual combat it adds very little against a good player. It's worth the 10Pres per say.. but I'd like to see it a little more expensive but closer to the NS1 jetpack in terms of acceleration and control.
Not sure I can agree that it adds very little. It's certainly weightier than in NS2, and thus far less responsive, but it still has a nice skill floor/ceiling.
Playing aliens makes me feel ill, if you nerfed marines down to similar stats as aliens(marine accel for example) I guess playing marines would also make me feel ill.
While i agree with your post overall, i would say a small change could be appropriate given how it was previously jacked up in order to compete with skulks in the first place. Something like say 85 instead of 100.
Though I think a lot of players would agree that the marine is a lot more fun ever since they jacked up his maneuverability, which was something a lot of people complained about ever since the early beta days. IMO marines finally feel right, and I'd rather they bring skulks on par or at least closer.
What exactly is the downside of buffing aliens over nerfing marines? Arguably both will have a similar affect in terms of balance, the big difference is that with the first you are brining skulks on a more enjoyable level where as with the second you are simply taking marines away from their current enjoyable state and not addressing the fact that skulks feel sluggish.
I find that as a general rule, better manoeuvrability in an FPS will make the game more interesting and fun for everyone involved. The only exception for that is 'realism' based shooters and last time I checked NS2 isn't trying to be realistic...
Wow, a lot of great discussion and posts on the last 2 pages explaining what people perceive to be the problem. I'm surprised how high quality and troll free this thread went. Thx everyone.
@Ironhorse
I finally see where you are coming from when you are suggesting slowing Marines down instead of making Skulks faster - Marines have been noticeably slower before
But I'm worried that that might upset balance in a bigger way against the other lifeforms, unlike speeding up Skulks which seems relatively side effect free (there are basically only 2 Marine "lifeforms", Marines and Exos, and Exos... pff).
Also, Marine players seem to prefer the faster movement - and tbh, this is a PC game, and faster movement is generally more fun (<- key word for Marines and Skulks) than the clunky, console controller derived molasses movement that multiplatform titles have.
So I still suggest NOT slowing down Marines, just giving Skulks competitive acceleration/whatever again
In doubt, faster is better.
If Skulks are too strong then, just reduce their damage or HP.
If the Alien spawn system gets faster in the future, I wouldn't mind dying because lack of HP too much - it would still be skill based. Losing a fight despite all the effort you put into it, on the other hand, because of a mechanic/location that just feels unfair... nah. This just isn't fun.
Ooh wait more forward armory strategies with mega nano super duper ranged upgrade and with slowed marines GG! Casuals will love that others don't. Just no, tweak the skulks and not the best game factor (fun). This isn't that hard game go play ns1 say that again. Best thing in NS1 was the movement system it wasn't slow or boring. It was challenging, fun, rewarding while casuals didn't like it (too hard to learn while engine was a part of the problem).. OFC skulks are in trouble once performance will increase with reg!!!'
If you want nerf the marines just remove sprint, like it will help with the dodging
Am relatively new to this game, i played 239 for 2 weeks before it updated to 240 i really think half the problem is performance of the game, its horrible to say the least. My old rig athlon II 640 oc 3.6ghz hd6850 could play any other modern game with good frame rate this game would be average 40 fps mid game to 15 fps late game no matter what the grafic settings. People are trying to gun down an alien when the game is running like a slide show, don't get me wrong the game is brilliant or i would not have dumped 1000$ upgraiding to play it, i5 3570k 4.6ghz hd7970 i now find how easy it is to gun down aliens.
lower ground and air control as it rewards accurate biting and punishes drawn out melee battles. It also adds an element of positioning to melee combat that isn't present if skulks can just W-move and instantly respond to marine dodging.
you were used to abusing the ridiculous old system where you got 12m/s leap speed with wall jumping and ridiculous air control with little to no thought or skill.
I think going back to the old acceleration would be a bad choice, honestly, as all it did was create flickering/glitchy animations and highly unpredictable movement, imo. Skulk movement changes may not have been the sole reason for the sway in win rates, given the optimizations and hit reg fixes, but we all know it obviously factored in within the first few minutes playing that patch. They are far more predictable and thus easier to track.
Still neutral on the solution.. but I definitely see the downsides to going back to how it was.
Anymore ideas?
As somebody who has favored aliens over marines since NS1, I find myself playing marines more often lately. Marines are just in a better place. They're easily more fun to play, and it's easy to dominate skulks now.
And as somebody who abused the hell out of the old skulk, leaping over marines and 180ing midair into their backs and chomping them down, yes the air control needed a nerf so I couldn't fly a skulk like a lerk.
That's where the nerf needed to end, but they also got their legs broken with the nerf bat and patched back together with silly string. Skulk acceleration needs to go back up, but not to the point where mashing the strafe keys causing you to disappear like you're a DBZ character. However, they need to be able to keep up with bull fighting marines.
I've spent too long as a marine dominating alien teams by bull fighting skulks. Hell, at this point, just give me a red cloak and an anvil. That can be the new marine weapon. At least then it will be fun for the skulks that hear that metal clang when they smash their skulls on it. CLANG! Ha! That was great!
Novelty will wear off quickly, though.
As for wall jump, I can't even test the speeds I can get with it anymore because explore mode/start a server doesn't work at all anymore. Nothing but a long stream of lua errors too fast for me to diagnose anything. All I can say is it feels barely rewarding now. Sure, I get to the objective a couple of seconds faster than the floor skulks on my team, but that just ends up in my death. And I shout to the sky, "WHERE WAS MY TEAM?!"
In case the text didn't portray my tone well enough, I'm trying to be humorous while still being deadly serious about skulks needing a buff to their movement. 50-50 win rates aren't worth skulks feeling like being kicked in the groin until you can finally use a higher lifeform.
EDIT: Apparently Minimap Colored Players not only causes all of the lights to go out on the station on the menu screen, but it also completely breaks Explore Mode. Amazing.
ANOTHER EDIT: Apparently, I clock an average speed of 8m/s. I miss my 10-13. TINY EDIT: Leaping up and falling down is more rewarding than wall jumping. 3m/s more rewarding.
Comments
As is obvious from my Member#, I played a lot of NS1, and when I say skulk/marine balance being close to what is desired, it is coloured by what I remember of the skulk/marine balance in NS1 (the really close to 50% balance in 8v8 games reported from 243 is also nice).
Now, it _is_ challenging (or as it is usually felt - frustrating) to play as a skulk vs non-noob marines. I know that feeling - in NS1, aliens needed a lot more teamwork to win compared to marines, and that challenge meant that winning came with the knowledge that you had won by playing well, both on the strategic and tactical level.
Personally, I feel the current version of NS2 is getting close to that same sweet feeling. That being said, there are plenty of things to improve and fix ... but that's no surprise - the performance limitations has hidden many issues that needs attending to over the next few patches (like the alien spawn system and large server balance).
Thank you jesus. It's nothing personal, at least you were kind enough to put your thoughts out there for us to read. I still have to disagree though, I feel like it is moving away from that feeling in a very big way, and that is coming from an expert. I'd hate to be a newbie right now, because the current state of skulks must be driving many players away. I personally very rarely even bother playing marines right now, because it is just way too easy.
Let's not pretend that is all this is though. Performance hasn't really increased significantly enough to justify a lot of this stuff.
No doubt.
Above all else, it seems counterproductive to make the game less fun in such a direct way in order to achieve win-rate balance. It's a shame that the free weekend came when it did, as I'm sure a better alien experience overall would have persuaded more people to purchase. Let's face it, while the exposure during it seemed relatively good (almost 10k concurrent players) compared to the regular player counts (~1500 on a good day), there hasn't been much of a followup gain in community size judging by the steam stats. Fun needs to be paramount if you want to grow the community beyond passing out gimmicks, ala Gorgeous.
As a side point, more concentration on smart balance decisions that make the game more fun, and less on the competitive scene, might be a good way to look at things. While the game isn't as dead as some people are starting to suggest elsewhere, it's far from where it should be in terms of concurrent players. There is only one reason for that --- it needs to be more fun.
What's wrong with the Alien spawn system?
Doesn't scale with teamsize and have an extremly long minimum spawn time for aliens. Which was ok when skulks killed 1.3 marines for every skulk, not when it's reversed as in 243.
I know nobody likes a nerf but the tracking benefits and lack of exploiting animation oddities brings the skulk to predictable movement, closer to ns1 skulk bhopping days..
Not to mention marine accel was increased originally to keep up with the skulk's.
So if skulk accel is now 64 , why not make marine accel the same? Level the playing field.
Could work in theory, but then this raises the whole "fun" thing again. It could be considered lowering the marines fun to get balance, rather than buffing the skulk agility (and making it more fun) to compete with the current early game marine.
I wouldnt say 100% no to your suggested chance, but I'd much rather see a skulk agility increase instead.
I'd agree with a mild reduction of marine accell down to maybe 90 and bring skulk up to 80 ish . But don't totally nerf marine as the dodging is very much needed for late game battles vs fade / onos.
Introduce a researchable speed upgrade in the Arms Lab then. Call it Stim Pack.
huh? If the point of the reduction is to level the playing field, why would something be introduced that would just uneven it again? ><
Skulk is still fun - but may seem less fun if you were used to abusing the ridiculous old system where you got 12m/s leap speed with wall jumping and ridiculous air control with little to no thought or skill.
I would wager performance is the biggest reason.
Fun and more gameplay depth will continue to come as they improve the game but right now I think most people can't play or are turned away by poor FPS performance unless you play 6v6 on NSL maps.
Marine accel is fine imo - if anything it needs to be improved when jetpacks come up. Those things are monstrously bad for anything but chasing down lifeforms like Onos or Fades - in actual combat it adds very little against a good player. It's worth the 10Pres per say.. but I'd like to see it a little more expensive but closer to the NS1 jetpack in terms of acceleration and control.
Exactly. It is just like Joederp said. Nerfing marine movement changes the balance agains 5 lifeforms. Yeah skulks have more advantage, but then when they evolve there would be a much larger gap in the balance of gameplay.
Wow, never thought I would see the day Ironhorse joined the cause. The majority of people seem to want a skulk based fix rather than a marine based one though.
Hadn't really even considered leap, what happened to that is too depressing to think about. I'm more concerned about early game currently. I don't agree about jetpacks not being that great against skulks though. Before the patch, maybe I'd agree against a very good skulk who could stick on a jetpacking marine. Versus brick-skulk though, I'd say they are ridiculous, as late game skulk is just all around terrible.
That's definitely a big one too. I'd expect that more people might be inclined to overlook somewhat of a performance issue if the game was more fun though, especially given the (perhaps over-exaggerated) promises the devs keep putting out there about improving on performance. Maybe not the people with terrible performance of course, but some of the others.
Almost everything else matches my experience, however. The complaints in this thread are incredibly hyperbolic.
When a skulk lunges at a marine, the skulk should more or less be committing to that attack. While a marine is capable of attacking while dodging (thanks to, you know, guns), the skulk is more commonly forced to either defensively reset or attack, with opportunities to do both at the same time being fewer. While certain offensive movements can be played more defensively (e.g. attacking from behind when able, or snapping your jaws as you fly by) they still put you in harm's way.
As I said elsewhere, a large part of the problem being described in this thread is that skulks enter protracted melee battles where they continually hop in an attempt to catch the juking marine, which is very, very poor play. They get upset about this because they feel something along the lines of "well, a marine's chance to kill me should have been before I closed the distance," which is also silly, since skulks have great burst speed and there are a million scenarios where this mechanic would mean a free kill. More sensibly, the closer you are to a marine, the easier you will be to hit if the marine is aiming at you (but really, this applies most often if you hop around in nice, sloping arcs toward where the marine was standing a second ago). The solution is to not play hopscotch in the middle of a fight.
A combination of strafing, circling, predicting and then lunging is almost always preferred, to say nothing of using map geometry to reset your ambush whenever possible. I know that you know this, GORGEous, but many players seem not to. Skulks absolutely have the advantage once they close the gap. I agree with IronHorse as well--how often is it that you're really in a scenario where there's nothing to hide behind? As a non-carapace skulk I've taken down five or six marines in crossroads on more than one occasion thanks to those beautiful, beautiful pillars.
A skulk absolutely shouldn't be able to instantly respond to a marine dodge, which was the case before. It wasn't only mechanically bonkers--it also resulted in an animation explosion which further gimped the marine.
I also think that the only thing that really needs to change is an improved walljump mechanic. That's what's going to help the skulk pull off the strike once they commit.
You need to make marines slower to balance against Skulks. But later you need them to be on par to dodge Fades and Onos. So you nerf marines in the early game to be balanced against early alien lifeforms but provide an option for the lategame to tech up against lategame lifeforms.
UWE needs to find a way to balance the two sides without affecting the enjoyment factor of it all, failure to do so is a lot more detrimental to the longevity of this game than any imbalance is.
Which again is why they need to look at meta-level balance like the economy.
Would act like a trip line or pressure plate and would snatch up the marine. Snare would have no timer and is considered structure based hp/armor comparable to a hydra (>1 clip). Skulk can bite through Snare. Snare can only hold up to 1 marine. Scales skulk strategic skill, viability, and fun factor. Snaring marines is fun as shit.
Incidentally, this might provide a slight buff to the other class weapons as well that can be dodged : Gorge spit, fade swipe, lerk bite .. which honestly i think would improve that "fun factor" slightly for those classes - something i think that is needed.
But thats a very subjective opinion so i understand if others don't agree.
I just wanted to point out the fear of the nerf bat can produce separation anxiety and aversion, despite it's benefits sometimes (As Locklear pointed out) And that there are sensible compromises.
That all being said.. the BT mod should be played more and given more feedback in regards to this subject, in case it is ever made official.
(Hint: Marines cannot change direction as fast as they can in Vanilla!! hehe )
Not sure I can agree that it adds very little. It's certainly weightier than in NS2, and thus far less responsive, but it still has a nice skill floor/ceiling.
What exactly is the downside of buffing aliens over nerfing marines? Arguably both will have a similar affect in terms of balance, the big difference is that with the first you are brining skulks on a more enjoyable level where as with the second you are simply taking marines away from their current enjoyable state and not addressing the fact that skulks feel sluggish.
I find that as a general rule, better manoeuvrability in an FPS will make the game more interesting and fun for everyone involved. The only exception for that is 'realism' based shooters and last time I checked NS2 isn't trying to be realistic...
@Ironhorse
I finally see where you are coming from when you are suggesting slowing Marines down instead of making Skulks faster - Marines have been noticeably slower before
But I'm worried that that might upset balance in a bigger way against the other lifeforms, unlike speeding up Skulks which seems relatively side effect free (there are basically only 2 Marine "lifeforms", Marines and Exos, and Exos... pff).
Also, Marine players seem to prefer the faster movement - and tbh, this is a PC game, and faster movement is generally more fun (<- key word for Marines and Skulks) than the clunky, console controller derived molasses movement that multiplatform titles have.
So I still suggest NOT slowing down Marines, just giving Skulks competitive acceleration/whatever again
In doubt, faster is better.
If Skulks are too strong then, just reduce their damage or HP.
If the Alien spawn system gets faster in the future, I wouldn't mind dying because lack of HP too much - it would still be skill based. Losing a fight despite all the effort you put into it, on the other hand, because of a mechanic/location that just feels unfair... nah. This just isn't fun.
If you want nerf the marines just remove sprint, like it will help with the dodging
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Still neutral on the solution.. but I definitely see the downsides to going back to how it was.
Anymore ideas?
And as somebody who abused the hell out of the old skulk, leaping over marines and 180ing midair into their backs and chomping them down, yes the air control needed a nerf so I couldn't fly a skulk like a lerk.
That's where the nerf needed to end, but they also got their legs broken with the nerf bat and patched back together with silly string. Skulk acceleration needs to go back up, but not to the point where mashing the strafe keys causing you to disappear like you're a DBZ character. However, they need to be able to keep up with bull fighting marines.
I've spent too long as a marine dominating alien teams by bull fighting skulks. Hell, at this point, just give me a red cloak and an anvil. That can be the new marine weapon. At least then it will be fun for the skulks that hear that metal clang when they smash their skulls on it. CLANG! Ha! That was great!
Novelty will wear off quickly, though.
As for wall jump, I can't even test the speeds I can get with it anymore because explore mode/start a server doesn't work at all anymore. Nothing but a long stream of lua errors too fast for me to diagnose anything. All I can say is it feels barely rewarding now. Sure, I get to the objective a couple of seconds faster than the floor skulks on my team, but that just ends up in my death. And I shout to the sky, "WHERE WAS MY TEAM?!"
In case the text didn't portray my tone well enough, I'm trying to be humorous while still being deadly serious about skulks needing a buff to their movement. 50-50 win rates aren't worth skulks feeling like being kicked in the groin until you can finally use a higher lifeform.
EDIT: Apparently Minimap Colored Players not only causes all of the lights to go out on the station on the menu screen, but it also completely breaks Explore Mode. Amazing.
ANOTHER EDIT: Apparently, I clock an average speed of 8m/s. I miss my 10-13. TINY EDIT: Leaping up and falling down is more rewarding than wall jumping. 3m/s more rewarding.