1.) The point is that any skulk versus marine fight is going to open with marines shooting the skulk and the skulk not really being able to do much about it other than hope the marine is a poor shot.
2.)If the marine spends more time shooting the skulk, the skulk is more likely to lose, if he spends less time, the skulk is more likely to win.
3.) And more skulks actually means more surface area to get shot. More marines don't make it easier for skulks to hit their targets, it just means they have more people they have to kill.
4.) So 1 marine vs 1 skulk may be balanced from say, 15 meters away.
I am sorry but every one of these points in no way accurately reflect the game.
1.) You are making a statement that every skulk shares your experience of always being found first and being shot at first. That is in no way accurate.
2.) The more time a marine spends shooting at you the better. That means you are manuvering well or he is a bad shoot. That also opens up the best kill chance on any marine. That is during reload. A good marines deaths come from either an ambush or during reload.
3.) Easier to hit "anything" yes. Easier to kill every skulk no.
4.) How can you bite a marine from 15 meters? Because your 10 damage shot is not balanced to an LMG at 15 meters.
Skulks conversely don't scale as well together, because no amount of extra skulks makes them get close to marines any faster. And more skulks actually means more surface area to get shot. More marines don't make it easier for skulks to hit their targets, it just means they have more people they have to kill.
In tight spots, the more marines you have the more they block each other's way of fire. With skulks the higher number limits the movement towards optimal biting range in close combat.
Mostly in xvx fights the 1st skulk draws fire and attention while other can get in with higher hp for the kill. Most of clashes with 2 or more skulks the 1st skulk just draws the fire and doesn't even try to attack but to keep marines distracted and lose enough ammo for the other skulks to finish the job. It's very hard to maintain position/ shooting order with marines in a dense formation as your teammates are blocking the vision and the angles you need to cover needs to be clear for each marine in the group. This is most prominient in the season 2 matches of ns2_nsl_tram where most of the teams use 4 skulk formation in start and just head on rush the marine's one side team down.
Just a quick reply to those suggesting ambushing and picking fights is the rule for skulks: yes it works most of the times. But not all the time. If the marines team is pushing hard your base, you can't "ambush", or "pick your fight". You have to get there and actually kill them. Good luck with that. You'll never close the gap to be at close combat, and if so, you'll be dead very quickly.
1.) The point is that any skulk versus marine fight is going to open with marines shooting the skulk and the skulk not really being able to do much about it other than hope the marine is a poor shot.
2.)If the marine spends more time shooting the skulk, the skulk is more likely to lose, if he spends less time, the skulk is more likely to win.
3.) And more skulks actually means more surface area to get shot. More marines don't make it easier for skulks to hit their targets, it just means they have more people they have to kill.
4.) So 1 marine vs 1 skulk may be balanced from say, 15 meters away.
I am sorry but every one of these points in no way accurately reflect the game.
1.) You are making a statement that every skulk shares your experience of always being found first and being shot at first. That is in no way accurate.
2.) The more time a marine spends shooting at you the better. That means you are manuvering well or he is a bad shoot. That also opens up the best kill chance on any marine. That is during reload. A good marines deaths come from either an ambush or during reload.
3.) Easier to hit "anything" yes. Easier to kill every skulk no.
4.) How can you bite a marine from 15 meters? Because your 10 damage shot is not balanced to an LMG at 15 meters.
1) Unless the marine you're fighting is deaf, your team has chosen silence as an early evolution, or you happened to drop literally right on his head from the roof, you will be heard, and likely shot at, before you close to biting distance. This is especially true in situations where aliens are on the offensive, where ambush tactics are simply unusable. The statement is not universally, absolutely accurate, but it is accurate in a vast majority of cases.
2) No, the less time a marine spends shooting at you the better, the more time he has to shoot at you, the greater the probability of him hitting you, and killing you. This is assuming even marine capability. Assuming equal skill, a marine with more time to shoot the skulk will knock off more health than a marine with less time to shoot the skulk. Optimal marine combat therefore involves putting as many bullets downrange as possible for the longest amount of time possible. Aiming is of course preferable but 'aim better' is hardly a helpful suggestion, now is it? It also isn't something the skulk can control. Any given marine will have a flat aiming ability which the skulk has very little he can do to influence. The skulk can, however, influence how much time the marine has to shoot at him, which is why ambushing exists as a skulk tactic. Optimal skulk play consists heavily of minimising the amount of time a marine can shoot at you before you get into biting range.
3) Yes two skulks are harder to kill than one skulk, that isn't disputed, however as I then went on to explain, it is about relative scaling. Two skulks scale worse than two marines, as two marines can easily shoot past each other and don't really make things any easier for each skulk. Two skulks will get in the way of each other more often, and even if they don't, they mean that when two marines are firing at them, shots intended for one can easily miss and hit the other. Skulks incur a chance of catching more stray bullets the more of them there are, marines do not incur this kind of chance, as a rule, because skulks are melee attackers and it is rarely, if ever, favorable to switch between targets as a skulk. This is an example of why skulks are harder to play, because any, even the most worthless marine, can follow other marines and receive a significant combat effectiveness boost. A skulk cannot do the same, because skulks receive less benefit from being in a group than do marines.
4) That is taking into account the assumption that the skulk will move. There is a fairly short distance (it doesn't matter about the precise distance, only that it is short) from which skulks can attack a marine, take a bit of damage getting close, and have enough health to reasonably win the melee. Beyond that distance, it becomes harder and harder for the skulk to survive the melee, that is what the 15 meter comment is about. It does not assume a skulk is going to sit at 15 meters and do nothing while the marine shoots it, it is intended to represent the distance at which a skulk can expect to close to biting range in the open and win the ensuing melee a reasonable amount of the time.
Ezay that is an example of a good team pushing a struggling team. Not mechanics imbalance. It would be exactly the same if a good early skulk team pressures the marine team. I keep seeing the same tone with every evasive point made about skulks.
"Yeah the proper ambush tactic works MOST of the time...but when I come up against a good player I can't kill something needs to be done to help me be better than I am"
Why does everyone need to make the point that because a team is being successful or a class is becoming more skilled with time that something has to be done about it?
Originally (even before b240) the point was that Marines can hop backwards and stay out of bite range. Well marines can't jump backwards as far anymore. So now the new argument is that marines can strafe jump too well. Try playing marine and not jumping when a skulk lunges. You don't even need to jump. All you have to do is A or D and spin. That is because most skulks will jump into a bite. That means they have committed. A committed skulk bite is less forgiving than a marine committed shot. If a skulk lunges at me all I have to is slide and turn. The next time the skulk is on my screen it is usually landing with its back toward me. I would really like to see the examples in peoples minds that have posted about the disadvantage of being a skulk and see how many first bites they miss and proceed to be killed.
this thread is about skillful movement, not scaling, as someone clarified to me. So let's continue that debate without scaling issues factoring in, and assume we're talking about early game skulk vs marine only. I doubt anyone would argue that scaling is another major issue.
Yes. This issue can be discussed without any upgrades for both sides, right at the start of the game. Right when it matters most.
While it does not go away later, at least Skulks have Leap and higher lifeforms (and Marines have shotguns :O ). But usually the problem is at the start of the game, where you are losing territory against better Marines due to this (how often did Marines hold 3 TPs before 240, and how often do they now!). The longer the game runs, the less a Skulk death or kill means, and the more alternative options are available.
The problem can get worse with scaling (more bites needed due to armor upgrades) but scaling itself is something entirely different.
The problem is also different from any walljumping discussion. The problem is especially noticeable when there is NO wall to use.
That being said, I feel there's a lot of anecdotal stuff going on, which makes identifying a solution even more difficult. So what do you suggest? Increasing acceleration has it's downsides, as gorgeous mentioned.
Well, you have to change something if you want to fix it. Increasing the Skulk acceleration (or whatever it is, air control,...) is the obvious idea, because it worked before 240.
My idea would be:
- increase Skulk acceleration/??? to be "competitive". Not necessarily as big as before 240, just better.
- if necessary (Skulks too good then), reduce Skulk damage (e.g. 20/40/60). This would not influence an approaching Skulk (getting TO a Marine who has seen you) and makes the melee fight longer, so the Marine has more chances to do something and it does not feel unfair (the Marine still has a fair chance when the Skulk has reached or ambushed him)
- if necessary, you could talk about less Skulk HP, but this would influence getting TO a Marine, so I'd rather see Skulk damage reduced (which only affects melee) and HP unchanged
In short, the most simple/side effect free "fix" I can come up with.
Side note: because less Skulk damage scales worse later in game, this could be combined with some improvement for the Skulk scaling (which is a different discussion).
And No one wants a nerf..
But maybe if marine strafe jumping produced *slightly* less distance, but kept it's acceleration, you can close the disadvantage gap without making things feel un fun?
There is just no reason to nerf Marine movement. Sure you could, but why? It just makes things more complicated than necessary. And Marine players hate you for the suggestion
Skulk has a problem? Modify the Skulk, not something else. Easy
---
When no wall is nearby (so you could wall jump, run away, do something), strafing and jumping is the only things you can do. Both have been nerfed by like 50% in 240 (acceleration for ground movement, air control for jumping).
You can't really say "Skulks shouldn't jump at a Marine now that they have less air control" and "don't just walk on the floor" at the same time. There is nothing else to do (running away gets you killed and won't save a critical situation). It's not like you have much time against a ranged enemy, possibly with a one-shot weapon (shotgun).
Just a quick reply to those suggesting ambushing and picking fights is the rule for skulks: yes it works most of the times. But not all the time. If the marines team is pushing hard your base, you can't "ambush", or "pick your fight". You have to get there and actually kill them. Good luck with that. You'll never close the gap to be at close combat, and if so, you'll be dead very quickly.
Also, this.
When the enemy can't aim good enough? The problem isn't really noticeable (never had that problem during the free weekend lol).
When you have alternative options? Well, you can do something.
But when your early game Harvester is being axed, are Skulks supposed to sit on the walls and hope the Marines feels like coming towards any walls out of courtesy?
Defending Harvesters and territory control (most importantly early game), and just attacking something when you have to later in the game.
There are just situations where you have to do something.
Even if the enemy team is "better" (usually they are not better, they just have an advantage now which feels very much like an unfair and un-fun advantage - which is the very point of this thread).
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
edited March 2013
But when is this often mentioned scenario of having nothing to do but strafing and jumping on the ground??
I mean besides the very middle of ballcourt, in which case that's highly situational and the frequency is incredibly low, determined by map layout.
I choke on the irony of me giving anecdotal evidence but its relevant: i tried playing tonight with this thread in mind. What i experienced, and what i observed, was that this scenario you describe rarely ever occurs. Almost to the point of it not being an issue at all??
Even in rooms like Cargo i found myself not approaching the middle of the room, unless i reached a high enough height to drop from, undamaged.
Then i thought: This is exactly how i've always played?? I've always been weary of the middle of Cargo, or Ballcourt or Terminal. Its always been a risk??
In short I think in the corridor shooter that is NS2, you rarely find yourself without Walls, Props, Obstacles or something to A) provide cover or launch from / re approach.
Even columns in gigantic rooms like crossroads provide more than enough to re attack from.
As gorgeous mentioned, committing yourself to that attack is important if you are jumping. I think going back to the old acceleration would be a bad choice, honestly, as all it did was create flickering/glitchy animations and highly unpredictable movement, imo.
As for marine strafe jumping, well what about changing the acceleration then and keeping the distance? This would give the skulk the advantage during that last minute manuever, as marines would have to jump sooner, and therefore give the skulk more time to correct? I don't think it would be unreasonable or even that much of a nerf, really. Marines would still strafe jump and ruin the skulks who did not react in time.
This all of course if you think that highly available walls or props don't provide a method to re attack or adjust - which i believe they do. :shrug:
Ezay that is an example of a good team pushing a struggling team. Not mechanics imbalance. It would be exactly the same if a good early skulk team pressures the marine team. I keep seeing the same tone with every evasive point made about skulks.
"Yeah the proper ambush tactic works MOST of the time...but when I come up against a good player I can't kill something needs to be done to help me be better than I am"
See ? You just changed my point completely. That's never what I said, and you know it.
I said that marines have the advantage at range and can still win at close quarter combat. Skulk can only win if:
A. target didn't hear skulk coming
B. target didn't see skulk coming
Don't you see the pattern here ? It's fairly easy to understand: a skulk can only get a kill on a less skilled/aware player than himself. He will lose every fight against a player that has a skill equivalent or higher.
Losing 100% of the time vs higher skilled players would be okay if same-skill fights were balanced. But they're not. Once you learn every map, that you know every corner, that you learn to straff jump (which a monkey could do), you're never surprised anymore. The A. and B. I explained earlier can't be achieved anymore.
And finally, did I mention scanner ? Yeah, I'm a scanner whore as a commander. I'll scan everywhere, everytime and spam medpacks on my soldiers. Result: my marines always win 1vs1, because they're never surprised. And if they are, no problem muchachos, here's a shower of medpack.
matsoMaster of PatchesJoin Date: 2002-11-05Member: 7000Members, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, Squad Five Gold, Reinforced - Shadow, NS2 Community Developer
Ezay that is an example of a good team pushing a struggling team. Not mechanics imbalance. It would be exactly the same if a good early skulk team pressures the marine team. I keep seeing the same tone with every evasive point made about skulks.
"Yeah the proper ambush tactic works MOST of the time...but when I come up against a good player I can't kill something needs to be done to help me be better than I am"
See ? You just changed my point completely. That's never what I said, and you know it.
I said that marines have the advantage at range and can still win at close quarter combat. Skulk can only win if:
A. target didn't hear skulk coming
B. target didn't see skulk coming
Early game, the aliens have 2 strategic advantages:
- no need to build anything
- faster movement (8m/s with walljumping vs 6m/s marine sprint speed)
This is offset by marines having a tactical advantage in combat (since 24x).
Aliens can use this by concentrating their force (one large pack), wiping out smaller forces of marines and their newly built extractors.
Marines can't concentrate their force, because they need to screen their base so the large alien force can't enter it unopposed, and they also need to build those extractors.
So, there is a third situation where skulks win:
C. Outnumber the marines.
When you are giving a strategic advantage and a tactical disadvantage, you need to play the strategic game.
Pre-240, aliens could just attack all over, mindlessly, and expect to win because the skulk had both the strategic and tactical advantage.
Pre-240, aliens could just attack all over, mindlessly, and expect to win because the skulk had both the strategic and tactical advantage.
No longer true.
Pre 240 skulks were actually fun to play.
No longer true. (As indicated by the large amount of players complaining about it)
It'd be much better to actually cut their strategic advantage (i.e fix the alien economy) rather than messing with the 1vs1 balance that is so fragile and detrimental to this class' enjoyment.
matsoMaster of PatchesJoin Date: 2002-11-05Member: 7000Members, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, Squad Five Gold, Reinforced - Shadow, NS2 Community Developer
Pre-240, aliens could just attack all over, mindlessly, and expect to win because the skulk had both the strategic and tactical advantage.
No longer true.
Pre 240 skulks were actually fun to play.
No longer true. (As indicated by the large amount of players complaining about it)
Yea, its unfortunate that performance problems/bugs caused skulks to be OP at release.
It'd be much better to actually cut their strategic advantage rather than messing with the 1vs1 balance that is so fragile and detrimental to this class' enjoyment.
You have to offset the (early game) strategic advantage of speed, vent access, lack of building requirement somehow.
That means that marines need to have the tactical advantage. Which means that if you meet marines in a situation where you have no tactical advantage (ambush, cover, numbers), you can expect to loose more often than not.
Now, it may well be that the skulk movement changes in 24x was overdone, or that the skulk should get a slightly better wall-jumping, or that skulks should not be forced to wait an average of 15 seconds in spawn queue every time they die now that they die more often than marines... the game will continue to develop; NS1 took 2+ years before it started to get settled.
But comparing 241+ vs 239-, the skulk/marine balance is a lot closer to desired now than before, in my personal opinion.
yeah im sick and tired of those hit and run marines climbing up the walls and through the vents then jumping down on my fragile little skulk head when i least expect it. Please buff the skulk they keep getting me.
Pre-240, aliens could just attack all over, mindlessly, and expect to win because the skulk had both the strategic and tactical advantage.
No longer true.
Pre 240 skulks were actually fun to play.
No longer true. (As indicated by the large amount of players complaining about it)
Yea, its unfortunate that performance problems/bugs caused skulks to be OP at release.
It'd be much better to actually cut their strategic advantage rather than messing with the 1vs1 balance that is so fragile and detrimental to this class' enjoyment.
You have to offset the (early game) strategic advantage of speed, vent access, lack of building requirement somehow.
That means that marines need to have the tactical advantage. Which means that if you meet marines in a situation where you have no tactical advantage (ambush, cover, numbers), you can expect to loose more often than not.
Now, it may well be that the skulk movement changes in 24x was overdone, or that the skulk should get a slightly better wall-jumping, or that skulks should not be forced to wait an average of 15 seconds in spawn queue every time they die now that they die more often than marines... the game will continue to develop; NS1 took 2+ years before it started to get settled.
But comparing 241+ vs 239-, the skulk/marine balance is a lot closer to desired now than before, in my personal opinion.
The problem is that you've exchanged an enjoyable mechanic, which is combat ability, for a boring mechanic, which is strategic versatility.
The latter wins games, and always has, but as I've continually complained about, running around the map biting structures to death is not interesting gameplay.
By making skulks even worse at combat, you've only served to further exaggerate the existing problem that fighting other players is a waste of time and effort.
Why should aliens waste their crappy units on winning fights when they can just kill structures? You're literally telling aliens that they are bad at fighting and shouldn't try to do it unless they have to. That's insane in a game where the only thing to do is fight stuff.
matsoMaster of PatchesJoin Date: 2002-11-05Member: 7000Members, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, Squad Five Gold, Reinforced - Shadow, NS2 Community Developer
Strategic versatility being boring? That's not really how I would describe the feeling of being part of a pack of skulks that quickly munches down a doomed, outnumbered group of marines, then chomping down on the resource towers before the marines can muster enough forces to defend them.
Then, quickly crossing the map and wipe out ANOTHER outnumbered group of marines and killing off them as well.
When you are giving a strategic advantage and a tactical disadvantage, you need to play the strategic game.
The question is, if skulks are supposed to run in packs to outnumber the marines in order to win, what do you do when it's an even fight? Say the entire team against the entire team (7v7 since I play on 16 player servers). At that point you no longer have even a possibility of this strategic advantage since it is physically impossible to get more players.
TBH, imho, in a game such as this, you can't require one side to outnumber the other side in order to win fights and have it balanced due to the above point. Fights with even numbers should be able to be won assuming the proper tactics are used. As people above have said though, you can't always wait and ambush a marine(s) so skulks need to be able to take them in head-on fights. This is where their melee superiority should be coming in. If the skulk is able to use obstacles, dodge fire, and just get the drop on the marine in general, they should be able to take them, not have to rely on having more players there.
When you are giving a strategic advantage and a tactical disadvantage, you need to play the strategic game.
The question is, if skulks are supposed to run in packs to outnumber the marines in order to win, what do you do when it's an even fight? Say the entire team against the entire team (7v7 since I play on 16 player servers). At that point you no longer have even a possibility of this strategic advantage since it is physically impossible to get more players.
TBH, imho, in a game such as this, you can't require one side to outnumber the other side in order to win fights and have it balanced due to the above point. Fights with even numbers should be able to be won assuming the proper tactics are used. As people above have said though, you can't always wait and ambush a marine(s) so skulks need to be able to take them in head-on fights. This is where their melee superiority should be coming in. If the skulk is able to use obstacles, dodge fire, and just get the drop on the marine in general, they should be able to take them, not have to rely on having more players there.
If marines are in one giant deathball, then the goal is either to split them up, or take out the comm chair behind them if they're overextended and can't defend. It's an extreme action to send all marines in one direction, and not very wise! Scouting, communication and game sense should come into play at some point...
I don't, however, dispute the fact that the skulk simply doesn't 'feel fun' to play due to its more sluggish movement. I'd like to see small, incremental buffs to skulk movement (rather than the all-in approach that was used during the nerf stages of 240) to see if the skulk movement can be made to feel less clunky without skewing the 1v1 balance too far, but I can see that even tiny steps could have a major impact.
Strategic versatility being boring? That's not really how I would describe the feeling of being part of a pack of skulks that quickly munches down a doomed, outnumbered group of marines, then chomping down on the resource towers before the marines can muster enough forces to defend them.
Then, quickly crossing the map and wipe out ANOTHER outnumbered group of marines and killing off them as well.
Boring? Hmm... I don't know. Not to me, at least.
Well that's boring because I'm winning because I have superior numbers. It's about as fun as murdering a team full of rookies as an onos or something. Fighting with the odds entirely in your favor is boring.
Though I would suggest that the amount of times that actually happens in game is rather small, normally marines cluster in large enough groups to prevent that, or aliens split up and work individually.
If the only way to play the basic alien class is to cluster in a big ball with others of that class, well, what's the point in having one of that class? What is the point in me, as a player? I'm only useful as an extra chunk of hitpoints in a cluster of people.
Pretty dull.
I mean, compare it to marines, marines have a gun, the gun kills most aliens relatively well, especially with upgrades, so you go out, with your gun, and look for aliens. You use your senses and map/player knowledge to predict where aliens will appear, and if you're looking the right way, you get a nice advantage. Then you shoot the moving targets with your gun and if you do good, you kill them. This works in any situation. Your basic marine can go out, fight stuff, and expect to win through his own skill in any circumstance.
Skulks, apparently, are not only incapable of this, but this is by design?
I too agree that skulks definitely need to be improved, at the expense of the alien economy or higher lifeform performance if that's what balancing it out requires. Playtime as skulk should not be a mandatory suffering period before you can morph into an actually useful lerk or fade. You can only munch on so many res towers while avoiding marines before it gets seriously stale, yet you're forced to do this every game against competent marines.
maybe scale the skulks in some way ...
more hives=meaner skulks
:-/
It's in the official Balance Test mod already (lifeform HP scales with the available Biomass in the Hives), but we have no clue when or if that will ever be included in the main game.
(Really hope so because the Biomass system offers more varied strategies than "RT, RT, RT, Shift Tech Path, Traits, Second Hive, Crag Tech Path, 2nd Tier Upgrades, Traits, RT, RT, Third Hive, Shade Tech Path, Traits, 3rd Tier Upgrades".)
I hope to see at least stuff like the new spawn scaling and Egg Hatch moved from Shift to Hive included soon. It honestly gets boring to be forced into a Shift Hive as first tech path just because you are playing in a large server or have close spawns and your aliens die faster than the regular spawning can keep up, thus eliminating any strategic choice that was left to the khammander.
Christ, if what matso said is how the developers feel then this seems pretty hopeless. There is no way skulks can be expected to outnumber marines in every engagement, even if the communication was there, which it most definitely isn't in 99/100 games.
Strategic versatility being boring? That's not really how I would describe the feeling of being part of a pack of skulks that quickly munches down a doomed, outnumbered group of marines, then chomping down on the resource towers before the marines can muster enough forces to defend them.
Then, quickly crossing the map and wipe out ANOTHER outnumbered group of marines and killing off them as well.
While you are doing all that the other groups of marines are murdering your stuff elsewhere because the teams are even and you can't outnumber all of them in simultaneous engagements.
FYI Matso is a contracted overseas developer so I don't think his vision necessarily corresponds with that of the development team as a whole. I'm pretty sure he's just posting his personal opinion... so don't go too hard on him
These are the only 2 changes made to skulks in build 240:
1.) Skulk movement adjustments – Movement code now makes them slightly less erratic when dancing in your sights.
2.) Fixed bug causing Skulk hitbox and worldmodel to be misaligned on some vertical surfaces (Makes the buggers easier to hit).
So nothing affected speed, acceleration, or wall walking according to the changes. So one of two things have happened. A.) No changes to speed and acceleration were made and the combined effect makes you "think" you are slow and sluggish or B.) Speed/Acc changes were made and not specified with "movement adjustments" in the changelog.
My guess is option A. Less erratic means the model doesn't move in a way it should not.
Oh and then this was fixed in build 241
1.)Fixed bug which caused Skulks to lose all their momentum instantly when touching the ground.
So skulks actually gained their acceleration from touching the ground. So where is the evidence that skulks are slower now, loose all their acceleration from doing anything, can't wall walk etc. Unless skulk speed was nerf is a more previous build that no one is caring to even read up on, there isn't any solid evidence in build 240+ that skulks have just become plushie turtles.
All the changelogs give the complete opposite results that complaints are being made about.
Those who dislike the current mechanics want that marine to be unable to effectively dodge the skulk if the skulk is able to close that distance gap?
I would disagree with that, as that would produce a very binary mechanic whereas the marine is unable to contest it's own survival based on map design. Rounding a tight spaced corner would mean random death to marines who otherwise could have employed a well timed dodge.
I tend to agree here. I don't think the outcome of any particular encounter should be defined by the location of the players involved. Just because a skulk gets a jump on a marine shouldn't mean the marine will die in 100% of cases. While the alien should have the advantage in such cases - just as a marine has an advantage at range - that advantage should be just that, an advantage. Not an outcome.
I really don't have a problem with jumping so long as we don't get the glitches we had in NS1 where you could bite a marine and if you connected when he jumped, sometimes the marine was knocked back FAR out of melee range. Of course that screwed the skulk, and was highly annoying.
If marines want to spam the space bar, I say let 'em. Makes no difference to me since most fights will normally be over before a marine can jump more than twice anyway.
So nothing affected speed, acceleration, or wall walking according to the changes. So one of two things have happened. A.) No changes to speed and acceleration were made and the combined effect makes you "think" you are slow and sluggish or B.) Speed/Acc changes were made and not specified with "movement adjustments" in the changelog.
The changelog didnt mention the actual changes.
-acceleration was nerfed to 64. A marines acceleration is 100, 36% quicker at getting up to speed.
-skulk air control was nerfed, making it harder to turn, thus less agile in combat.
So nothing affected speed, acceleration, or wall walking according to the changes. So one of two things have happened. A.) No changes to speed and acceleration were made and the combined effect makes you "think" you are slow and sluggish or B.) Speed/Acc changes were made and not specified with "movement adjustments" in the changelog.
The changelog didnt mention the actual changes.
-acceleration was nerfed to 64. A marines acceleration is 100, 36% quicker at getting up to speed.
-skulk air control was nerfed, making it harder to turn, thus less agile in combat.
So where is that data coming from if its not from a changelog? That's specific values you are using.
Early game, the aliens have 2 strategic advantages:
- no need to build anything
- faster movement (8m/s with walljumping vs 6m/s marine sprint speed)
This is offset by marines having a tactical advantage in combat (since 24x).
Aliens can use this by concentrating their force (one large pack), wiping out smaller forces of marines and their newly built extractors.
Marines can't concentrate their force, because they need to screen their base so the large alien force can't enter it unopposed, and they also need to build those extractors.
So, there is a third situation where skulks win:
C. Outnumber the marines.
When you are giving a strategic advantage and a tactical disadvantage, you need to play the strategic game.
Pre-240, aliens could just attack all over, mindlessly, and expect to win because the skulk had both the strategic and tactical advantage.
No longer true.
Well, at least we know why it's like this now.
I've never heard of this suck at combat but make up for it in zerg nonsense in a game before, I imagine counterstrike would've been way better if one team had dualies and the other had AWPs and colts, but had a strategic disadvantage. The guys with dualies could run 2/ms faster!!! /hyperbole /butpointstands
Please make combat as equal as you can, I understand it's not meant to be X vs X it's X vs Y, but it's an absolute joke having one side significantly stronger in the early game combat aspect.
Strategic versatility being boring? That's not really how I would describe the feeling of being part of a pack of skulks that quickly munches down a doomed, outnumbered group of marines, then chomping down on the resource towers before the marines can muster enough forces to defend them.
Then, quickly crossing the map and wipe out ANOTHER outnumbered group of marines and killing off them as well.
Boring? Hmm... I don't know. Not to me, at least.
But to many of yours players, it's boring as all hell.
These are the only 2 changes made to skulks in build 240:
So nothing affected speed, acceleration, or wall walking according to the changes. So one of two things have happened. A.) No changes to speed and acceleration were made and the combined effect makes you "think" you are slow and sluggish or B.) Speed/Acc changes were made and not specified with "movement adjustments" in the changelog.
So where is the evidence that skulks are slower now, loose all their acceleration from doing anything, can't wall walk etc. Unless skulk speed was nerf is a more previous build that no one is caring to even read up on, there isn't any solid evidence in build 240+ that skulks have just become plushie turtles.
All the changelogs give the complete opposite results that complaints are being made about.
Changelogs never really go into the specifics. Anyways
Comments
I am sorry but every one of these points in no way accurately reflect the game.
1.) You are making a statement that every skulk shares your experience of always being found first and being shot at first. That is in no way accurate.
2.) The more time a marine spends shooting at you the better. That means you are manuvering well or he is a bad shoot. That also opens up the best kill chance on any marine. That is during reload. A good marines deaths come from either an ambush or during reload.
3.) Easier to hit "anything" yes. Easier to kill every skulk no.
4.) How can you bite a marine from 15 meters? Because your 10 damage shot is not balanced to an LMG at 15 meters.
In tight spots, the more marines you have the more they block each other's way of fire. With skulks the higher number limits the movement towards optimal biting range in close combat.
Mostly in xvx fights the 1st skulk draws fire and attention while other can get in with higher hp for the kill. Most of clashes with 2 or more skulks the 1st skulk just draws the fire and doesn't even try to attack but to keep marines distracted and lose enough ammo for the other skulks to finish the job. It's very hard to maintain position/ shooting order with marines in a dense formation as your teammates are blocking the vision and the angles you need to cover needs to be clear for each marine in the group. This is most prominient in the season 2 matches of ns2_nsl_tram where most of the teams use 4 skulk formation in start and just head on rush the marine's one side team down.
1) Unless the marine you're fighting is deaf, your team has chosen silence as an early evolution, or you happened to drop literally right on his head from the roof, you will be heard, and likely shot at, before you close to biting distance. This is especially true in situations where aliens are on the offensive, where ambush tactics are simply unusable. The statement is not universally, absolutely accurate, but it is accurate in a vast majority of cases.
2) No, the less time a marine spends shooting at you the better, the more time he has to shoot at you, the greater the probability of him hitting you, and killing you. This is assuming even marine capability. Assuming equal skill, a marine with more time to shoot the skulk will knock off more health than a marine with less time to shoot the skulk. Optimal marine combat therefore involves putting as many bullets downrange as possible for the longest amount of time possible. Aiming is of course preferable but 'aim better' is hardly a helpful suggestion, now is it? It also isn't something the skulk can control. Any given marine will have a flat aiming ability which the skulk has very little he can do to influence. The skulk can, however, influence how much time the marine has to shoot at him, which is why ambushing exists as a skulk tactic. Optimal skulk play consists heavily of minimising the amount of time a marine can shoot at you before you get into biting range.
3) Yes two skulks are harder to kill than one skulk, that isn't disputed, however as I then went on to explain, it is about relative scaling. Two skulks scale worse than two marines, as two marines can easily shoot past each other and don't really make things any easier for each skulk. Two skulks will get in the way of each other more often, and even if they don't, they mean that when two marines are firing at them, shots intended for one can easily miss and hit the other. Skulks incur a chance of catching more stray bullets the more of them there are, marines do not incur this kind of chance, as a rule, because skulks are melee attackers and it is rarely, if ever, favorable to switch between targets as a skulk. This is an example of why skulks are harder to play, because any, even the most worthless marine, can follow other marines and receive a significant combat effectiveness boost. A skulk cannot do the same, because skulks receive less benefit from being in a group than do marines.
4) That is taking into account the assumption that the skulk will move. There is a fairly short distance (it doesn't matter about the precise distance, only that it is short) from which skulks can attack a marine, take a bit of damage getting close, and have enough health to reasonably win the melee. Beyond that distance, it becomes harder and harder for the skulk to survive the melee, that is what the 15 meter comment is about. It does not assume a skulk is going to sit at 15 meters and do nothing while the marine shoots it, it is intended to represent the distance at which a skulk can expect to close to biting range in the open and win the ensuing melee a reasonable amount of the time.
"Yeah the proper ambush tactic works MOST of the time...but when I come up against a good player I can't kill something needs to be done to help me be better than I am"
Why does everyone need to make the point that because a team is being successful or a class is becoming more skilled with time that something has to be done about it?
Originally (even before b240) the point was that Marines can hop backwards and stay out of bite range. Well marines can't jump backwards as far anymore. So now the new argument is that marines can strafe jump too well. Try playing marine and not jumping when a skulk lunges. You don't even need to jump. All you have to do is A or D and spin. That is because most skulks will jump into a bite. That means they have committed. A committed skulk bite is less forgiving than a marine committed shot. If a skulk lunges at me all I have to is slide and turn. The next time the skulk is on my screen it is usually landing with its back toward me. I would really like to see the examples in peoples minds that have posted about the disadvantage of being a skulk and see how many first bites they miss and proceed to be killed.
While it does not go away later, at least Skulks have Leap and higher lifeforms (and Marines have shotguns :O ). But usually the problem is at the start of the game, where you are losing territory against better Marines due to this (how often did Marines hold 3 TPs before 240, and how often do they now!). The longer the game runs, the less a Skulk death or kill means, and the more alternative options are available.
The problem can get worse with scaling (more bites needed due to armor upgrades) but scaling itself is something entirely different.
The problem is also different from any walljumping discussion. The problem is especially noticeable when there is NO wall to use. Well, you have to change something if you want to fix it. Increasing the Skulk acceleration (or whatever it is, air control,...) is the obvious idea, because it worked before 240.
My idea would be:
- increase Skulk acceleration/??? to be "competitive". Not necessarily as big as before 240, just better.
- if necessary (Skulks too good then), reduce Skulk damage (e.g. 20/40/60). This would not influence an approaching Skulk (getting TO a Marine who has seen you) and makes the melee fight longer, so the Marine has more chances to do something and it does not feel unfair (the Marine still has a fair chance when the Skulk has reached or ambushed him)
- if necessary, you could talk about less Skulk HP, but this would influence getting TO a Marine, so I'd rather see Skulk damage reduced (which only affects melee) and HP unchanged
In short, the most simple/side effect free "fix" I can come up with.
Side note: because less Skulk damage scales worse later in game, this could be combined with some improvement for the Skulk scaling (which is a different discussion).
There is just no reason to nerf Marine movement. Sure you could, but why? It just makes things more complicated than necessary. And Marine players hate you for the suggestion
Skulk has a problem? Modify the Skulk, not something else. Easy
---
When no wall is nearby (so you could wall jump, run away, do something), strafing and jumping is the only things you can do. Both have been nerfed by like 50% in 240 (acceleration for ground movement, air control for jumping).
You can't really say "Skulks shouldn't jump at a Marine now that they have less air control" and "don't just walk on the floor" at the same time. There is nothing else to do (running away gets you killed and won't save a critical situation). It's not like you have much time against a ranged enemy, possibly with a one-shot weapon (shotgun).
Also, this.
When the enemy can't aim good enough? The problem isn't really noticeable (never had that problem during the free weekend lol).
When you have alternative options? Well, you can do something.
But when your early game Harvester is being axed, are Skulks supposed to sit on the walls and hope the Marines feels like coming towards any walls out of courtesy?
Defending Harvesters and territory control (most importantly early game), and just attacking something when you have to later in the game.
There are just situations where you have to do something.
Even if the enemy team is "better" (usually they are not better, they just have an advantage now which feels very much like an unfair and un-fun advantage - which is the very point of this thread).
I mean besides the very middle of ballcourt, in which case that's highly situational and the frequency is incredibly low, determined by map layout.
I choke on the irony of me giving anecdotal evidence but its relevant: i tried playing tonight with this thread in mind. What i experienced, and what i observed, was that this scenario you describe rarely ever occurs. Almost to the point of it not being an issue at all??
Even in rooms like Cargo i found myself not approaching the middle of the room, unless i reached a high enough height to drop from, undamaged.
Then i thought: This is exactly how i've always played?? I've always been weary of the middle of Cargo, or Ballcourt or Terminal. Its always been a risk??
In short I think in the corridor shooter that is NS2, you rarely find yourself without Walls, Props, Obstacles or something to A) provide cover or
Even columns in gigantic rooms like crossroads provide more than enough to re attack from.
As gorgeous mentioned, committing yourself to that attack is important if you are jumping. I think going back to the old acceleration would be a bad choice, honestly, as all it did was create flickering/glitchy animations and highly unpredictable movement, imo.
As for marine strafe jumping, well what about changing the acceleration then and keeping the distance? This would give the skulk the advantage during that last minute manuever, as marines would have to jump sooner, and therefore give the skulk more time to correct? I don't think it would be unreasonable or even that much of a nerf, really. Marines would still strafe jump and ruin the skulks who did not react in time.
This all of course if you think that highly available walls or props don't provide a method to re attack or adjust - which i believe they do. :shrug:
See ? You just changed my point completely. That's never what I said, and you know it.
I said that marines have the advantage at range and can still win at close quarter combat. Skulk can only win if:
A. target didn't hear skulk coming
B. target didn't see skulk coming
Don't you see the pattern here ? It's fairly easy to understand: a skulk can only get a kill on a less skilled/aware player than himself. He will lose every fight against a player that has a skill equivalent or higher.
Losing 100% of the time vs higher skilled players would be okay if same-skill fights were balanced. But they're not. Once you learn every map, that you know every corner, that you learn to straff jump (which a monkey could do), you're never surprised anymore. The A. and B. I explained earlier can't be achieved anymore.
And finally, did I mention scanner ? Yeah, I'm a scanner whore as a commander. I'll scan everywhere, everytime and spam medpacks on my soldiers. Result: my marines always win 1vs1, because they're never surprised. And if they are, no problem muchachos, here's a shower of medpack.
Early game, the aliens have 2 strategic advantages:
- no need to build anything
- faster movement (8m/s with walljumping vs 6m/s marine sprint speed)
This is offset by marines having a tactical advantage in combat (since 24x).
Aliens can use this by concentrating their force (one large pack), wiping out smaller forces of marines and their newly built extractors.
Marines can't concentrate their force, because they need to screen their base so the large alien force can't enter it unopposed, and they also need to build those extractors.
So, there is a third situation where skulks win:
C. Outnumber the marines.
When you are giving a strategic advantage and a tactical disadvantage, you need to play the strategic game.
Pre-240, aliens could just attack all over, mindlessly, and expect to win because the skulk had both the strategic and tactical advantage.
No longer true.
Pre 240 skulks were actually fun to play.
No longer true. (As indicated by the large amount of players complaining about it)
It'd be much better to actually cut their strategic advantage (i.e fix the alien economy) rather than messing with the 1vs1 balance that is so fragile and detrimental to this class' enjoyment.
Yea, its unfortunate that performance problems/bugs caused skulks to be OP at release.
You have to offset the (early game) strategic advantage of speed, vent access, lack of building requirement somehow.
That means that marines need to have the tactical advantage. Which means that if you meet marines in a situation where you have no tactical advantage (ambush, cover, numbers), you can expect to loose more often than not.
Now, it may well be that the skulk movement changes in 24x was overdone, or that the skulk should get a slightly better wall-jumping, or that skulks should not be forced to wait an average of 15 seconds in spawn queue every time they die now that they die more often than marines... the game will continue to develop; NS1 took 2+ years before it started to get settled.
But comparing 241+ vs 239-, the skulk/marine balance is a lot closer to desired now than before, in my personal opinion.
The problem is that you've exchanged an enjoyable mechanic, which is combat ability, for a boring mechanic, which is strategic versatility.
The latter wins games, and always has, but as I've continually complained about, running around the map biting structures to death is not interesting gameplay.
By making skulks even worse at combat, you've only served to further exaggerate the existing problem that fighting other players is a waste of time and effort.
Why should aliens waste their crappy units on winning fights when they can just kill structures? You're literally telling aliens that they are bad at fighting and shouldn't try to do it unless they have to. That's insane in a game where the only thing to do is fight stuff.
Then, quickly crossing the map and wipe out ANOTHER outnumbered group of marines and killing off them as well.
Boring? Hmm... I don't know. Not to me, at least.
The question is, if skulks are supposed to run in packs to outnumber the marines in order to win, what do you do when it's an even fight? Say the entire team against the entire team (7v7 since I play on 16 player servers). At that point you no longer have even a possibility of this strategic advantage since it is physically impossible to get more players.
TBH, imho, in a game such as this, you can't require one side to outnumber the other side in order to win fights and have it balanced due to the above point. Fights with even numbers should be able to be won assuming the proper tactics are used. As people above have said though, you can't always wait and ambush a marine(s) so skulks need to be able to take them in head-on fights. This is where their melee superiority should be coming in. If the skulk is able to use obstacles, dodge fire, and just get the drop on the marine in general, they should be able to take them, not have to rely on having more players there.
If marines are in one giant deathball, then the goal is either to split them up, or take out the comm chair behind them if they're overextended and can't defend. It's an extreme action to send all marines in one direction, and not very wise! Scouting, communication and game sense should come into play at some point...
I don't, however, dispute the fact that the skulk simply doesn't 'feel fun' to play due to its more sluggish movement. I'd like to see small, incremental buffs to skulk movement (rather than the all-in approach that was used during the nerf stages of 240) to see if the skulk movement can be made to feel less clunky without skewing the 1v1 balance too far, but I can see that even tiny steps could have a major impact.
Well that's boring because I'm winning because I have superior numbers. It's about as fun as murdering a team full of rookies as an onos or something. Fighting with the odds entirely in your favor is boring.
Though I would suggest that the amount of times that actually happens in game is rather small, normally marines cluster in large enough groups to prevent that, or aliens split up and work individually.
If the only way to play the basic alien class is to cluster in a big ball with others of that class, well, what's the point in having one of that class? What is the point in me, as a player? I'm only useful as an extra chunk of hitpoints in a cluster of people.
Pretty dull.
I mean, compare it to marines, marines have a gun, the gun kills most aliens relatively well, especially with upgrades, so you go out, with your gun, and look for aliens. You use your senses and map/player knowledge to predict where aliens will appear, and if you're looking the right way, you get a nice advantage. Then you shoot the moving targets with your gun and if you do good, you kill them. This works in any situation. Your basic marine can go out, fight stuff, and expect to win through his own skill in any circumstance.
Skulks, apparently, are not only incapable of this, but this is by design?
Something seems a bit wrong there.
more hives=meaner skulks
:-/
It's in the official Balance Test mod already (lifeform HP scales with the available Biomass in the Hives), but we have no clue when or if that will ever be included in the main game.
(Really hope so because the Biomass system offers more varied strategies than "RT, RT, RT, Shift Tech Path, Traits, Second Hive, Crag Tech Path, 2nd Tier Upgrades, Traits, RT, RT, Third Hive, Shade Tech Path, Traits, 3rd Tier Upgrades".)
I hope to see at least stuff like the new spawn scaling and Egg Hatch moved from Shift to Hive included soon. It honestly gets boring to be forced into a Shift Hive as first tech path just because you are playing in a large server or have close spawns and your aliens die faster than the regular spawning can keep up, thus eliminating any strategic choice that was left to the khammander.
While you are doing all that the other groups of marines are murdering your stuff elsewhere because the teams are even and you can't outnumber all of them in simultaneous engagements.
Sorry but this is a joke. So out of touch with how any reasonable player should feel.
1.) Skulk movement adjustments – Movement code now makes them slightly less erratic when dancing in your sights.
2.) Fixed bug causing Skulk hitbox and worldmodel to be misaligned on some vertical surfaces (Makes the buggers easier to hit).
So nothing affected speed, acceleration, or wall walking according to the changes. So one of two things have happened. A.) No changes to speed and acceleration were made and the combined effect makes you "think" you are slow and sluggish or B.) Speed/Acc changes were made and not specified with "movement adjustments" in the changelog.
My guess is option A. Less erratic means the model doesn't move in a way it should not.
Oh and then this was fixed in build 241
1.)Fixed bug which caused Skulks to lose all their momentum instantly when touching the ground.
So skulks actually gained their acceleration from touching the ground. So where is the evidence that skulks are slower now, loose all their acceleration from doing anything, can't wall walk etc. Unless skulk speed was nerf is a more previous build that no one is caring to even read up on, there isn't any solid evidence in build 240+ that skulks have just become plushie turtles.
All the changelogs give the complete opposite results that complaints are being made about.
I really don't have a problem with jumping so long as we don't get the glitches we had in NS1 where you could bite a marine and if you connected when he jumped, sometimes the marine was knocked back FAR out of melee range. Of course that screwed the skulk, and was highly annoying.
If marines want to spam the space bar, I say let 'em. Makes no difference to me since most fights will normally be over before a marine can jump more than twice anyway.
I really don't see the problem here.
The changelog didnt mention the actual changes.
-acceleration was nerfed to 64. A marines acceleration is 100, 36% quicker at getting up to speed.
-skulk air control was nerfed, making it harder to turn, thus less agile in combat.
So where is that data coming from if its not from a changelog? That's specific values you are using.
Well, at least we know why it's like this now.
I've never heard of this suck at combat but make up for it in zerg nonsense in a game before, I imagine counterstrike would've been way better if one team had dualies and the other had AWPs and colts, but had a strategic disadvantage. The guys with dualies could run 2/ms faster!!! /hyperbole /butpointstands
Please make combat as equal as you can, I understand it's not meant to be X vs X it's X vs Y, but it's an absolute joke having one side significantly stronger in the early game combat aspect.
But to many of yours players, it's boring as all hell.
Changelogs never really go into the specifics. Anyways
In 239
Skulk.kAcceleration = 140
Skulk.kGroundFriction = 20
Skulk.kGroundWalkFriction = 33
In 240+
Skulk.kAcceleration = 64
Skulk.kGroundFriction = 9.15
Skulk.kGroundWalkFriction = 15