<!--QuoteBegin-e.Nadagast+Jun 23 2004, 11:43 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (e.Nadagast @ Jun 23 2004, 11:43 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> wow cam can you be more negative about clans? 99% of clanners are really nice guys. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> like who? name me ten people besides yourself that goes on pub servers and plays like a pubber, has fun, and doesn't blame lag when he dies? better yet, name ten people who are willing to voluntarily spend 10-20 minutes going over with another clan what they did wrong. i can't name one. p.s. ok besides squishy :X
CAL has nothing to do with what's wrong with this community. the problem is not with scripts (they are legal in CAL-NS) or hacks, but with the people itself. if i were to have to pinpoint the problem to one point, it'd have to be the fact that the competitive community has no home. there are the ampednews and cal forums, but the former isn't taken seriously by most people, and the latter isn't very popular. IRC channels are a good place to find members of the clan community, but not everyone idles #findnsscrim or #nspug. for such a small community where everybody knows everybody, this is a huge problem. there's no place where someone can post about improving the community and be taken seriously. most of the people here who post "goodbye" threads are members of the clan community whom most forum goers don't know. it'd be great if you could say goodbye without someone going "who are you?"
of course, not that anyone's gonna take me seriously and actually start taking action. there'll probably be 3 more pages of this discussion on this thread before some punk makes a 10 page rant about veterans and their scripts. gg.
Hmm. Methinks you are blowing things a little (a lot) out of proportion Cam. Pretty much every clan in CAL-O that I have scrimmed/had matches with was a pleasure to play against. Since I am a newcomer to CAL-I I can't say too much about the overall gamma attitude, but I will say that on several occasions I have asked members of top clans for advice (Jink-Jink, Nadagast, Rennex, etc) and they have been very helpful and polite. Most of the problems come from immature drama **** who crave attention. These people compose about 1% of the community as a whole.
On the other hand, I do understand what some people here have said about clanners owning it up on pubs. I have the unique position of being an admin on the OldF community servers (some of the most popular pub servers in the community) and being a CAL clanner. Yes, I do see clanners clanstacking and owning up the servers. Yes, I do see clanners laughing at pubbers and putting them down when they drop TF's in MS on start. Yes, I do hear clanners verbally abusing new gorges who drop single MC's in the hive and reskulk. This is something that needs to change so that we can move forward. Hopefully this latest shakedown in the clan community will change some attitudes?
erm - i think there is one overlieing factor that no one has mentioned yet (i don't think, apologies if I missed it)...
marines win near every evenly-matched round? Forget pubs / pickups / pugs and all that stuff - I'm talking at the top flight... the experienced clanners who know the maps, know the strats, know the games - I've sat on IRC and seen all the results come in for rounds from the Atlantic Cup, the big Clanbase games (this is all euro scene by the way) and 90% of the results are draws with straight marine wins every round....
until the game is properly balanced for clan play, the scene will continue to collapse slowly
equally as pointed out, there is no central site - i know for a fact that work is being done on compete.natural-selection.org but these things take time especially with flayra's absence over the last 2-3 weeks
we were all new to ns at one point........ try to remember that Next time some one does something out of place instead of yelling, tell them what to do right. that way more people will know of good things to do or right things to do. yelling and calling some one a noob does nothing. i know not everyone has pateince for this but since this game isnt cs where u can randomly runaround and shoot stuff you need people to know what theyre doing and when some one doesnt, well its not that fun of a game. I am fairly new to the ns clan scene but i started in #nspug and played for a while sure at 1st I couldnt kill anything... but then u start undertsanding the strats and seeing where skulks hide or good places to ambush etc... also learning to bhop is a good thing. inc is also going through some stuff right now losing our comm and all. but we will survive.... i hope <!--emo&:0--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wow.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wow.gif' /><!--endemo-->
If you want to join a clan do, if you dont then dont join. Its that simple and there really shouldnt be any type of discussion about it. Either someone wants to or doesnt.
btw: Out of the 1+ years of being in eR not one clan has ever asked me or any of the eR members to help them out after a game. So i'm not sure were the instinces of people helping out after games comes about since in my experience nobody asks. I guess you could take the first step but by doing so it sounds really condasending imo.
<!--QuoteBegin-Zephor+Jun 23 2004, 08:51 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Zephor @ Jun 23 2004, 08:51 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-e.Nadagast+Jun 23 2004, 08:43 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (e.Nadagast @ Jun 23 2004, 08:43 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> wow cam can you be more negative about clans? 99% of clanners are really nice guys. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I dont think I've ever seen a cal-gamma clan stop and give suggestions or congraduate the other team for a game. It is just GG and its over. Systemshock's first DOD match pretty much ended with a awesome guy pm me and telling me that we played a great game. After much conversation, he mentioned to us new places to hid and ways to improve and offered to scrim with us in the future. If I ever saw a gamma clan do that to a open team I would be impressed but it NEVER happens. This community has a few nice people but most of them are selfish ****. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> .... It isn't up to the Gamma clans to babysit the newer clans, but if they want the help, I am (and I'm sure 99% of cal-gamma clanners are) very willing to help people out. Don't expect help without asking. How is a Gamma player to know if they think he is being condescending or not? And believe me, pretty much any gamma clan will scrim your clan anytime you want.
The bottom line is people aren't going to help you without you asking for it. If you ask, you will recieve help, lots of it. Calling people selfish **** is not at all correct...
<!--QuoteBegin-camO.o+Jun 23 2004, 11:46 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (camO.o @ Jun 23 2004, 11:46 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-e.Nadagast+Jun 23 2004, 11:43 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (e.Nadagast @ Jun 23 2004, 11:43 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> wow cam can you be more negative about clans? 99% of clanners are really nice guys. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> like who? name me ten people besides yourself that goes on pub servers and plays like a pubber, has fun, and doesn't blame lag when he dies? better yet, name ten people who are willing to voluntarily spend 10-20 minutes going over with another clan what they did wrong. i can't name one. p.s. ok besides squishy :X
CAL has nothing to do with what's wrong with this community. the problem is not with scripts (they are legal in CAL-NS) or hacks, but with the people itself. if i were to have to pinpoint the problem to one point, it'd have to be the fact that the competitive community has no home. there are the ampednews and cal forums, but the former isn't taken seriously by most people, and the latter isn't very popular. IRC channels are a good place to find members of the clan community, but not everyone idles #findnsscrim or #nspug. for such a small community where everybody knows everybody, this is a huge problem. there's no place where someone can post about improving the community and be taken seriously. most of the people here who post "goodbye" threads are members of the clan community whom most forum goers don't know. it'd be great if you could say goodbye without someone going "who are you?"
of course, not that anyone's gonna take me seriously and actually start taking action. there'll probably be 3 more pages of this discussion on this thread before some punk makes a 10 page rant about veterans and their scripts. gg. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> What the hell does 'play like a pubber' mean? I'm sure any vets have fun on pubs, or there would be no reason to pub. I mean, just today I saw my brother pubbing with a RL friend and they were having a great time and not blaming lag or anything (WTH? as if pubbers never complain about lag?).
Anyway, again, PM anyone in a CAL-Gamma clan asking them for advice and I'm absolutely positive that they would help you out for 10-20 minutes. Have you ever tried? Or do you get your impressions of vets from one random **** smurfing on a pub? I know Exigent will help out ANY (unless you're mean/****) clan that asks for it after a scrim. Hell, Florp PMed me today and I got a chance to help him out with alien strategy...
I don't know what your next paragraph is about but yeah it's nice to have a community site and forums...
<!--QuoteBegin-Zephor+Jun 23 2004, 11:48 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Zephor @ Jun 23 2004, 11:48 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Well it really doesnt' help when the game isn't changing at all and problems which should have been fixed 3 months ago aren't being fixed. If CS stopped at beta 1 im pretty sure, given the time, the clan scene would have died too. You can't have people continue playing when people know problems wont get fixed. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Wow, agreed++
someone said that playing clan matches is more fun..
sorry, i disagree.. I was in clan for a long while, and I found that matches were very stressfull! even when we win.. the win tasted like ashes, its not fun.. its just unsatisfactory hard work I have 1000 times more fun messing around on pub servers.. and I dont think pub games are THAT dis-organised!
1 in 3 games I have in pub are seriously good games.. and the laffs to be had out of them seem to be unlimited!
the problem I think is.. well, we are still playing with beta releases.. the game just isnt tournment worthy. how can it be if its under development still ?
look at the most popular tournement games.. they have actually been released into the shops, they are balanced very well ( i dont want to argue about the balance of NS.. i think it is, but only when all players are experienced and competant, needing lots of practise time, consequently detering new players to tourny)
and I think the fact that two major clans have gone is testiment to the fact.. if NS's best clans are quitting how the hell can you expect less dedicated/skilled players to go onto the scene?
I think the reasons why those clans have folded should be looked at.. not just start crying on forums that the scene is dying, begging for help.
NS is just as fun without being in a clan or playing clan matches and these post prove it! - clearly the popularity of the game is NOT affected by the slow in the competative scene.
<span style='color:white'>Be nice.</span> This already happened two or three times in the past. Way back in 1.04 when people were still asking for more clans, not much has changed since then.
in the last couple of months of 1.04 the clan scene was near dead (I'm not sure about USA etc, i'm talking principally euro)... all the strats had been played to death. It was marine rape constantly with either 2 hive lockdown slow games, or jetpack rushing slaughter....
NS is currently in another low point because work appears to have come to a standstill - 'appear' in this context means from the average persons point of view - there has been little contact with flayra recently due to him moving house, and even though the exterminators (god bless them) have been nibbling away at the bug list, none of that is seen by most people until the next release (and most of it still isn't even noticed as they remove bugs lots of people don't know about)
give it time people! <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Who cares if clans are dying. Its clans who made the Dev team make NS more competative, less balanced and MUCH less atmospheric. Im glad there all dying.
LM community will always be playing NS, even if its the last server standing the players have developed a bond there even though not in any clan, it cannot ever be broken. So i can really care less if the NS clan community dies, LM will always be there for those who are in doubt <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin-Diablus+Jun 24 2004, 09:53 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Diablus @ Jun 24 2004, 09:53 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Who cares if clans are dying. Its clans who made the Dev team make NS more competative, less balanced and MUCH less atmospheric. Im glad there all dying.
LM community will always be playing NS, even if its the last server standing the players have developed a bond there even though not in any clan, it cannot ever be broken. So i can really care less if the NS clan community dies, LM will always be there for those who are in doubt <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I agree. Praise the lord, LM is here.
I really don't think that anyone who isn't already in a clan is about to join one. Or they have joined one, but was shunted out. Like me(for no explained reason, I expect I didn't turn up often enough or something - over the course of 5 days I was in 2 of the games).
Besides, a good pub server is generally more fun than playing a clan game. Key word being fun.
<!--QuoteBegin-Diablus+Jun 24 2004, 09:53 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Diablus @ Jun 24 2004, 09:53 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Who cares if clans are dying. Its clans who made the Dev team make NS more competative, less balanced and MUCH less atmospheric. Im glad there all dying. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Yes, every problem in ns is the fault of the clan scene... I would much rather have the game balanced toward players with a bit of skill, instead of balancing for people still trying to land half their shots. Balancing toward the lower end leads to units that easily become overpowered in the hands of skilled players. And all those clans finding bugs/exploits- it is better to have them widely known and then fixed, as opposed to a few people knowing and abusing them.
I always found clan matches to be fun. If you aren't having fun in a clan match, you are with the wrong people.
ZunniThe best thing to happen to I&S in a long whileJoin Date: 2002-11-26Member: 10016Members
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->i <b>really</b> think that getting people involved in pick up games could help to give clanplay the kick in the **** it needs. come give it a try, you don't have anything to lose.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I play in a clan presently, have played in clans in the past, and have played a few PUG's... My impression is a few things about pugs...
1) Excellent players smurf their identities and tell the captain of the team they want to be on, who they are playing as. So one team gets stacked.. So massive imbalanced teams = fun right??
2) Captains, pick teams and the mentality of "last picked in gym class" happens over and over again, which encourages bad feelings.
3) The number of times I've played a pug where 1 good member who happened to get picked up on a less skilled team, sits and moans and whines about the fact that "this is the worst team ever", or says "Well we lose, SG rush to get this over with" before the match even starts happens in pretty much every pug I've played.
4) Those same people will often do things to sabatoge their own team so the game is over much faster..
So pugs aren't the be-all/end-all that some people would like to believe. It does teach you about the clan community, that some of them are jerks who enjoy putting other less-skilled players down and who will only play if they can be on the winning team..
I'm not trying to belittle the idea of pugging, or clans for that matter, but when you look at the game from an outside perspective it's easy to understand why there are pr0 pubbers out there who refuse to get involved with us.
TBH, the way pugging would work best is if everyone is assigned to random teams.. There still is a chance for stacking but at least it would ensure the majority of games would be more even.. (my 2 cents)
I tried a couple of clans for some of the other HL-Mods a few years back, they instantly sucked all of the fun out of whatever game we were playing. Both clans took the game too seriously and put winning over fun.
i.e. A TFC clan, no you can't go engineer and build a sentry gun in thier base you have to go soldier and stand in this exact spot(like a sentry gun), no you can't go for the flag, no this no that...
My experience is that Clans a the most efficient way to change a fun game into a chore.
<!--QuoteBegin-camO.o+Jun 23 2004, 09:28 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (camO.o @ Jun 23 2004, 09:28 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Vinin+Jun 23 2004, 07:04 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Vinin @ Jun 23 2004, 07:04 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The public community and the competitive scene are linked together.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> linked the same way fire and ice are? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> The concepts of energy and absence of energy are obviously linked, one can not be without the other.
I think the uninviting front that is put forward by most clanners is what turns your average pubber off to the idea of trying to go more competitive.
Imagine if a famous basketball or football player went down to the local park and found some kids messing around with a ball. Would he just jump in, completely own them, and then laugh about it and call them nubs? Sounds ridiculous, right? And yet this exact thing is prevalent in the NS world. Why? If you were those kids, would you ever say "Wow, I want to be just like that guy!" and then go buy his brand of running shoes? I doubt it.
I know some extremely good pubbers who refuse to do anything competitive because the scene is such a turn off. I know someone, in fact, who refuses to fade on pubs because -- GET THIS -- He's too good at it. He owns as skulk for a few minutes and then gorges with his RFK and gets several RTs, chambers, hive, whatever's needed. Imagine if some top tier clanners would decide to do that? Instead of changing your name to "Headsh0t Charlie" and going 50-2, how about keeping your normal name up with your clan tag and playing in order to help your team? Running to the hive and spawncamping isn't impressing anyone. Everyone else on the server is silently saying, "Great, another clanner jerk. Thanks for coming in to ruin our game."
Why would your average pubber want to join in to that community? They don't see the nice clanners, because they usually don't stick out. They're rare. Usually what they see is either total silence from a smurf who just came in to get a huge kill:death ratio, or else a whiny person who goes fade and then complains about lack of DCs, or runs into a roomful of skulks, gets killed, and then swears out the comm for not getting A1/dropping meds/ammo/whatever.
The point being, just be nicer. If you can't have fun on pubs if you're not camping for kills, maybe you shouldn't be playing on pubs at all?
And on the clan to clan treatment... well that's often ridiculous. I was there with florp in that incident he posted about earlier. "Quit playing NS now." Great thing to tell a clan fresh in to cal-O. It's to the point that you don't even want to make small talk with the other clan before a scrim or a match, as they might just be scathing idiots and want to do nothing but insult you. Common friendliness never hurt anyone. And just because you're anonymous behind your computer screen doesn't mean that your actions don't have an effect. They may even come back around to smack you in the end.
<!--QuoteBegin-Roberto+Jun 24 2004, 11:29 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Roberto @ Jun 24 2004, 11:29 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I would much rather have the game balanced toward players with a bit of skill, instead of balancing for people still trying to land half their shots. Balancing toward the lower end leads to units that easily become overpowered in the hands of skilled players. And all those clans finding bugs/exploits- it is better to have them widely known and then fixed, as opposed to a few people knowing and abusing them.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Roberto: Yes, every problem in ns is the fault of the clan scene... <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Im sensing a flame comment here.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->And all those clans finding bugs/exploits- it is better to have them widely known and then fixed, as opposed to a few people knowing and abusing them. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thats where your wrong. Most clanners who find a bug wont say a peep, unless it puts them at a disadvantage. IF it puts them at a advantege i kid you not, they will most likely 90% of the time(estimate from what IVE been seeing) abuse it. IF in fact it will give them the upper hand and nobody really knows about it.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->QUOTE (Tasty @ Jun 24 2004, 12:26 PM) I tried a couple of clans for some of the other HL-Mods a few years back, they instantly sucked all of the fun out of whatever game we were playing. Both clans took the game too seriously and put winning over fun.
i.e. A TFC clan, no you can't go engineer and build a sentry gun in thier base you have to go soldier and stand in this exact spot(like a sentry gun), no you can't go for the flag, no this no that...
My experience is that Clans a the most efficient way to change a fun game into a chore.
No one gets payed to play ns, therefore people play in clans because it is fun (or more fun then pub\puging), why else would they? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
IMO, the "Clan way of playing" that I experienced was no fun at all, so from my experience I can't imagine why anyone who isn't obcessed with winning would want to join one,
[<u>B]Anything can be quickly runied by takeing it too seriously.[/B]</u>
<!--QuoteBegin-Zunni+Jun 24 2004, 10:36 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Zunni @ Jun 24 2004, 10:36 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> TBH, the way pugging would work best is if everyone is assigned to random teams.. There still is a chance for stacking but at least it would ensure the majority of games would be more even.. (my 2 cents) <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> there has been a function which makes the bot pick the teams automatically for almost <b>3 months</b>, thanks
also as far as all of your other complaints go they're completely groundless because there are rules against every single thing you named and i have <b>never, not once since the day nspug was created</b> seen an admin request from you. i'm really, terribly sorry that the 14 people i've chosen to admin the channel aren't omnipotent and able to read your mind and drop whatever they are doing to fix problems in games; i'll be more careful in my choosing next time.
as the stickied thread on the nspug forums says, if you don't report problems, we don't know about them. it's quite simple. if you're going to play and have a bad experience and then be too lazy to say "hey this guy ruined the game" so that we can deal with it, you really have zero room to complain.
<!--QuoteBegin-BobTheJanitor+Jun 24 2004, 10:47 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (BobTheJanitor @ Jun 24 2004, 10:47 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Usually what they see is either total silence from a smurf who just came in to get a huge kill:death ratio, or else a whiny person who goes fade and then complains about lack of DCs, or runs into a roomful of skulks, gets killed, and then swears out the comm for not getting A1/dropping meds/ammo/whatever.
The point being, just be nicer. If you can't have fun on pubs if you're not camping for kills, maybe you shouldn't be playing on pubs at all? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You might ask yourself why this sort of behavior is exhibited. I can tell you the reason why I smurfed. Almost without fail every pub game I played where I didn't smurf and turn off the vet icon one of two things would happen. Either someone would spend 10 minutes ticking me off by calling me a hacker and many less imaginative names, or someone else would spend the entire round sucking up to me. Did you ever think that maybe the behavior of clanners is a result of the sort of celebrity status they "enjoy"?
I mean sometimes I see the most rediculous behavior from competitive players, such as people who join pubs to see how fast they can get an admin to ban them. That's completely immature but if you actually look at why they behave this way, you start to realize that it's actually a fairly natural reaction. What you should really bemoan is how the wider NS community treats its competitive players, which is <i>also</i> not at all like how a bunch of kids would treat a basketball star. Even a player who just got good at the game will soon act like that because shortsighted pub players will inevitably whine about how he "ruined" their 10 minute game by outskilling them.
The majority of good players I see that still bother to pub do so in the same way: silent with a smurf name so people will just leave them alone and let them play. They don't play to camp and ruin someone's day, they play to win the game. If you have issues with that then I don't know how to help you.
As far as the nasty clan to clan behavior I can only say that there will always be some bad apples but for the most part there has always been responsible community leaders that take it on themselves to regulate this sort thing (usually just through peer pressure, but it works). Drama is inevitable in a competitive community but it's not something you're forced to take part in.
The fact is that from what I've seen, it's the people on these boards who are quickest to point the finger and segregate the NS community into two factions: clanners and pubbers. If you're the former you must only use a shotgun and have a 1000-1 ratio and if you're the latter you must only build turrets and res **** for onos. The majority of the players I've seen are decent at the game but lack understanding of one or a few concepts. Some of these are people that play competitively. Some are not. Some of them have really crappy attitudes, most don't.
A quick comment on <i>playing to win </i>vs <i>playing for fun</i>. Those are not polar opposite concepts. I play to win, and that is what I find fun. If you think that people are emphasizing <i>winning</i> <b>at the expense of</b> <i>fun</i>, that is because you are looking at the issue from a different viewpoint than competitive players. The reality of the issue is that competitive play is NS taken to the next level. It's not a question of <i>winning</i> vs <i>fun</i>, it's a question of <i>dedication to one's hobby </i>vs a <i>casual approach to one's hobby</i>. Obviously people who prefer a casual approach will have trouble understanding how dedicated players enjoy it as much as they do. Please don't fault your fellow players because they are willing to commit more time to this game.
genius post bob <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
and florp bob: i'm not sure if this was the same game, perhaps not, but the comment that got seared into my brain was this one
"Just quit NS. Now."
ah, good times. just wanted to vent that.
er, i really have nothing to add to this. a small percentage of clanners are smacktards that create a stigma for the rest, yeah, i totally agree with that. and most are, well, mayeb they are nice, i dunno, i just know the majority are not mean. perhaps that's teh problem. eitehr they are silent, or they are talking smack. guess which one most pubbers remember?
what i've often wondered is, why do do top tier clanners BOTHER with going to a pub? why don't they stick to a ubar server (are there any around) and just play with ppl their skill? that seems more amenable to both sides.
Comments
like who? name me ten people besides yourself that goes on pub servers and plays like a pubber, has fun, and doesn't blame lag when he dies? better yet, name ten people who are willing to voluntarily spend 10-20 minutes going over with another clan what they did wrong. i can't name one.
p.s. ok besides squishy :X
CAL has nothing to do with what's wrong with this community. the problem is not with scripts (they are legal in CAL-NS) or hacks, but with the people itself. if i were to have to pinpoint the problem to one point, it'd have to be the fact that the competitive community has no home. there are the ampednews and cal forums, but the former isn't taken seriously by most people, and the latter isn't very popular. IRC channels are a good place to find members of the clan community, but not everyone idles #findnsscrim or #nspug. for such a small community where everybody knows everybody, this is a huge problem. there's no place where someone can post about improving the community and be taken seriously. most of the people here who post "goodbye" threads are members of the clan community whom most forum goers don't know. it'd be great if you could say goodbye without someone going "who are you?"
of course, not that anyone's gonna take me seriously and actually start taking action. there'll probably be 3 more pages of this discussion on this thread before some punk makes a 10 page rant about veterans and their scripts. gg.
On the other hand, I do understand what some people here have said about clanners owning it up on pubs. I have the unique position of being an admin on the OldF community servers (some of the most popular pub servers in the community) and being a CAL clanner. Yes, I do see clanners clanstacking and owning up the servers. Yes, I do see clanners laughing at pubbers and putting them down when they drop TF's in MS on start. Yes, I do hear clanners verbally abusing new gorges who drop single MC's in the hive and reskulk. This is something that needs to change so that we can move forward. Hopefully this latest shakedown in the clan community will change some attitudes?
marines win near every evenly-matched round? Forget pubs / pickups / pugs and all that stuff - I'm talking at the top flight... the experienced clanners who know the maps, know the strats, know the games - I've sat on IRC and seen all the results come in for rounds from the Atlantic Cup, the big Clanbase games (this is all euro scene by the way) and 90% of the results are draws with straight marine wins every round....
until the game is properly balanced for clan play, the scene will continue to collapse slowly
equally as pointed out, there is no central site - i know for a fact that work is being done on compete.natural-selection.org but these things take time especially with flayra's absence over the last 2-3 weeks
btw: Out of the 1+ years of being in eR not one clan has ever asked me or any of the eR members to help them out after a game. So i'm not sure were the instinces of people helping out after games comes about since in my experience nobody asks. I guess you could take the first step but by doing so it sounds really condasending imo.
I dont think I've ever seen a cal-gamma clan stop and give suggestions or congraduate the other team for a game. It is just GG and its over. Systemshock's first DOD match pretty much ended with a awesome guy pm me and telling me that we played a great game. After much conversation, he mentioned to us new places to hid and ways to improve and offered to scrim with us in the future. If I ever saw a gamma clan do that to a open team I would be impressed but it NEVER happens. This community has a few nice people but most of them are selfish ****. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
.... It isn't up to the Gamma clans to babysit the newer clans, but if they want the help, I am (and I'm sure 99% of cal-gamma clanners are) very willing to help people out. Don't expect help without asking. How is a Gamma player to know if they think he is being condescending or not? And believe me, pretty much any gamma clan will scrim your clan anytime you want.
The bottom line is people aren't going to help you without you asking for it. If you ask, you will recieve help, lots of it. Calling people selfish **** is not at all correct...
like who? name me ten people besides yourself that goes on pub servers and plays like a pubber, has fun, and doesn't blame lag when he dies? better yet, name ten people who are willing to voluntarily spend 10-20 minutes going over with another clan what they did wrong. i can't name one.
p.s. ok besides squishy :X
CAL has nothing to do with what's wrong with this community. the problem is not with scripts (they are legal in CAL-NS) or hacks, but with the people itself. if i were to have to pinpoint the problem to one point, it'd have to be the fact that the competitive community has no home. there are the ampednews and cal forums, but the former isn't taken seriously by most people, and the latter isn't very popular. IRC channels are a good place to find members of the clan community, but not everyone idles #findnsscrim or #nspug. for such a small community where everybody knows everybody, this is a huge problem. there's no place where someone can post about improving the community and be taken seriously. most of the people here who post "goodbye" threads are members of the clan community whom most forum goers don't know. it'd be great if you could say goodbye without someone going "who are you?"
of course, not that anyone's gonna take me seriously and actually start taking action. there'll probably be 3 more pages of this discussion on this thread before some punk makes a 10 page rant about veterans and their scripts. gg. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
What the hell does 'play like a pubber' mean? I'm sure any vets have fun on pubs, or there would be no reason to pub. I mean, just today I saw my brother pubbing with a RL friend and they were having a great time and not blaming lag or anything (WTH? as if pubbers never complain about lag?).
Anyway, again, PM anyone in a CAL-Gamma clan asking them for advice and I'm absolutely positive that they would help you out for 10-20 minutes. Have you ever tried? Or do you get your impressions of vets from one random **** smurfing on a pub? I know Exigent will help out ANY (unless you're mean/****) clan that asks for it after a scrim. Hell, Florp PMed me today and I got a chance to help him out with alien strategy...
I don't know what your next paragraph is about but yeah it's nice to have a community site and forums...
Wow, agreed++
sorry, i disagree.. I was in clan for a long while, and I found that matches were very stressfull! even when we win.. the win tasted like ashes, its not fun.. its just unsatisfactory hard work
I have 1000 times more fun messing around on pub servers.. and I dont think pub games are THAT dis-organised!
1 in 3 games I have in pub are seriously good games.. and the laffs to be had out of them seem to be unlimited!
the problem I think is.. well, we are still playing with beta releases.. the game just isnt tournment worthy. how can it be if its under development still ?
look at the most popular tournement games.. they have actually been released into the shops, they are balanced very well ( i dont want to argue about the balance of NS.. i think it is, but only when all players are experienced and competant, needing lots of practise time, consequently detering new players to tourny)
and I think the fact that two major clans have gone is testiment to the fact.. if NS's best clans are quitting how the hell can you expect less dedicated/skilled players to go onto the scene?
I think the reasons why those clans have folded should be looked at.. not just start crying on forums that the scene is dying, begging for help.
NS is just as fun without being in a clan or playing clan matches and these post prove it! - clearly the popularity of the game is NOT affected by the slow in the competative scene.
SADE-yX
<span style='color:white'>Be nice.</span>
NS is currently in another low point because work appears to have come to a standstill - 'appear' in this context means from the average persons point of view - there has been little contact with flayra recently due to him moving house, and even though the exterminators (god bless them) have been nibbling away at the bug list, none of that is seen by most people until the next release (and most of it still isn't even noticed as they remove bugs lots of people don't know about)
give it time people! <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
LM community will always be playing NS, even if its the last server standing the players have developed a bond there even though not in any clan, it cannot ever be broken. So i can really care less if the NS clan community dies, LM will always be there for those who are in doubt <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
LM community will always be playing NS, even if its the last server standing the players have developed a bond there even though not in any clan, it cannot ever be broken. So i can really care less if the NS clan community dies, LM will always be there for those who are in doubt <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree. Praise the lord, LM is here.
Edit: I hate all clans.
Everyone said the same about the Nano's, or NTFM, or Warservers.
Or they have joined one, but was shunted out. Like me(for no explained reason, I expect I didn't turn up often enough or something - over the course of 5 days I was in 2 of the games).
Besides, a good pub server is generally more fun than playing a clan game. Key word being fun.
Yes, every problem in ns is the fault of the clan scene...
I would much rather have the game balanced toward players with a bit of skill, instead of balancing for people still trying to land half their shots. Balancing toward the lower end leads to units that easily become overpowered in the hands of skilled players. And all those clans finding bugs/exploits- it is better to have them widely known and then fixed, as opposed to a few people knowing and abusing them.
I always found clan matches to be fun. If you aren't having fun in a clan match, you are with the wrong people.
I play in a clan presently, have played in clans in the past, and have played a few PUG's... My impression is a few things about pugs...
1) Excellent players smurf their identities and tell the captain of the team they want to be on, who they are playing as. So one team gets stacked.. So massive imbalanced teams = fun right??
2) Captains, pick teams and the mentality of "last picked in gym class" happens over and over again, which encourages bad feelings.
3) The number of times I've played a pug where 1 good member who happened to get picked up on a less skilled team, sits and moans and whines about the fact that "this is the worst team ever", or says "Well we lose, SG rush to get this over with" before the match even starts happens in pretty much every pug I've played.
4) Those same people will often do things to sabatoge their own team so the game is over much faster..
So pugs aren't the be-all/end-all that some people would like to believe. It does teach you about the clan community, that some of them are jerks who enjoy putting other less-skilled players down and who will only play if they can be on the winning team..
I'm not trying to belittle the idea of pugging, or clans for that matter, but when you look at the game from an outside perspective it's easy to understand why there are pr0 pubbers out there who refuse to get involved with us.
TBH, the way pugging would work best is if everyone is assigned to random teams.. There still is a chance for stacking but at least it would ensure the majority of games would be more even.. (my 2 cents)
i.e. A TFC clan, no you can't go engineer and build a sentry gun in thier base you have to go soldier and stand in this exact spot(like a sentry gun), no you can't go for the flag, no this no that...
My experience is that Clans a the most efficient way to change a fun game into a chore.
linked the same way fire and ice are? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The concepts of energy and absence of energy are obviously linked, one can not be without the other.
Imagine if a famous basketball or football player went down to the local park and found some kids messing around with a ball. Would he just jump in, completely own them, and then laugh about it and call them nubs? Sounds ridiculous, right? And yet this exact thing is prevalent in the NS world. Why? If you were those kids, would you ever say "Wow, I want to be just like that guy!" and then go buy his brand of running shoes? I doubt it.
I know some extremely good pubbers who refuse to do anything competitive because the scene is such a turn off. I know someone, in fact, who refuses to fade on pubs because -- GET THIS -- He's too good at it. He owns as skulk for a few minutes and then gorges with his RFK and gets several RTs, chambers, hive, whatever's needed. Imagine if some top tier clanners would decide to do that? Instead of changing your name to "Headsh0t Charlie" and going 50-2, how about keeping your normal name up with your clan tag and playing in order to help your team? Running to the hive and spawncamping isn't impressing anyone. Everyone else on the server is silently saying, "Great, another clanner jerk. Thanks for coming in to ruin our game."
Why would your average pubber want to join in to that community? They don't see the nice clanners, because they usually don't stick out. They're rare. Usually what they see is either total silence from a smurf who just came in to get a huge kill:death ratio, or else a whiny person who goes fade and then complains about lack of DCs, or runs into a roomful of skulks, gets killed, and then swears out the comm for not getting A1/dropping meds/ammo/whatever.
The point being, just be nicer. If you can't have fun on pubs if you're not camping for kills, maybe you shouldn't be playing on pubs at all?
And on the clan to clan treatment... well that's often ridiculous. I was there with florp in that incident he posted about earlier. "Quit playing NS now." Great thing to tell a clan fresh in to cal-O. It's to the point that you don't even want to make small talk with the other clan before a scrim or a match, as they might just be scathing idiots and want to do nothing but insult you. Common friendliness never hurt anyone. And just because you're anonymous behind your computer screen doesn't mean that your actions don't have an effect. They may even come back around to smack you in the end.
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<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Roberto: Yes, every problem in ns is the fault of the clan scene... <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Im sensing a flame comment here.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->And all those clans finding bugs/exploits- it is better to have them widely known and then fixed, as opposed to a few people knowing and abusing them.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thats where your wrong. Most clanners who find a bug wont say a peep, unless it puts them at a disadvantage. IF it puts them at a advantege i kid you not, they will most likely 90% of the time(estimate from what IVE been seeing) abuse it. IF in fact it will give them the upper hand and nobody really knows about it.
I tried a couple of clans for some of the other HL-Mods a few years back, they instantly sucked all of the fun out of whatever game we were playing. Both clans took the game too seriously and put winning over fun.
i.e. A TFC clan, no you can't go engineer and build a sentry gun in thier base you have to go soldier and stand in this exact spot(like a sentry gun), no you can't go for the flag, no this no that...
My experience is that Clans a the most efficient way to change a fun game into a chore.
No one gets payed to play ns, therefore people play in clans because it is fun (or more fun then pub\puging), why else would they?
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IMO, the "Clan way of playing" that I experienced was no fun at all, so from my experience I can't imagine why anyone who isn't obcessed with winning would want to join one,
[<u>B]Anything can be quickly runied by takeing it too seriously.[/B]</u>
see; religion, star trek, etc.
there has been a function which makes the bot pick the teams automatically for almost <b>3 months</b>, thanks
also as far as all of your other complaints go they're completely groundless because there are rules against every single thing you named and i have <b>never, not once since the day nspug was created</b> seen an admin request from you. i'm really, terribly sorry that the 14 people i've chosen to admin the channel aren't omnipotent and able to read your mind and drop whatever they are doing to fix problems in games; i'll be more careful in my choosing next time.
as the stickied thread on the nspug forums says, if you don't report problems, we don't know about them. it's quite simple. if you're going to play and have a bad experience and then be too lazy to say "hey this guy ruined the game" so that we can deal with it, you really have zero room to complain.
The point being, just be nicer. If you can't have fun on pubs if you're not camping for kills, maybe you shouldn't be playing on pubs at all? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You might ask yourself why this sort of behavior is exhibited. I can tell you the reason why I smurfed. Almost without fail every pub game I played where I didn't smurf and turn off the vet icon one of two things would happen. Either someone would spend 10 minutes ticking me off by calling me a hacker and many less imaginative names, or someone else would spend the entire round sucking up to me. Did you ever think that maybe the behavior of clanners is a result of the sort of celebrity status they "enjoy"?
I mean sometimes I see the most rediculous behavior from competitive players, such as people who join pubs to see how fast they can get an admin to ban them. That's completely immature but if you actually look at why they behave this way, you start to realize that it's actually a fairly natural reaction. What you should really bemoan is how the wider NS community treats its competitive players, which is <i>also</i> not at all like how a bunch of kids would treat a basketball star. Even a player who just got good at the game will soon act like that because shortsighted pub players will inevitably whine about how he "ruined" their 10 minute game by outskilling them.
The majority of good players I see that still bother to pub do so in the same way: silent with a smurf name so people will just leave them alone and let them play. They don't play to camp and ruin someone's day, they play to win the game. If you have issues with that then I don't know how to help you.
As far as the nasty clan to clan behavior I can only say that there will always be some bad apples but for the most part there has always been responsible community leaders that take it on themselves to regulate this sort thing (usually just through peer pressure, but it works). Drama is inevitable in a competitive community but it's not something you're forced to take part in.
The fact is that from what I've seen, it's the people on these boards who are quickest to point the finger and segregate the NS community into two factions: clanners and pubbers. If you're the former you must only use a shotgun and have a 1000-1 ratio and if you're the latter you must only build turrets and res **** for onos. The majority of the players I've seen are decent at the game but lack understanding of one or a few concepts. Some of these are people that play competitively. Some are not. Some of them have really crappy attitudes, most don't.
and florp bob: i'm not sure if this was the same game, perhaps not, but the comment that got seared into my brain was this one
"Just quit NS. Now."
ah, good times. just wanted to vent that.
er, i really have nothing to add to this. a small percentage of clanners are smacktards that create a stigma for the rest, yeah, i totally agree with that. and most are, well, mayeb they are nice, i dunno, i just know the majority are not mean. perhaps that's teh problem. eitehr they are silent, or they are talking smack. guess which one most pubbers remember?
what i've often wondered is, why do do top tier clanners BOTHER with going to a pub? why don't they stick to a ubar server (are there any around) and just play with ppl their skill? that seems more amenable to both sides.