ZunniThe best thing to happen to I&S in a long whileJoin Date: 2002-11-26Member: 10016Members
edited November 2004
I honestly wasn't going to stick my nose in here, and to be honest, I probably shouldn't... But let me say this..
Any server admin/community has the right to run their server anyway (rules etc) they want.. for whatever reasons they want.
They are 'paying' for the server (box/bandwidth etc) and as such have the right to make any decisions they want.
What this means to you (Nadagast): is that any server that wants to have Blockscripts enabled (for example) regardless if they can script or not, has the right to do this. And you have a choice.. Play there.. or don't....
It's like trying to tell any religious person that their religion is wrong because of your world view. Even if you had talked to 'God' himself, and was told explicitely that the correct religion was Baptist (for example), doesn't mean that you would/should be able to walk into another church and shut it down based solely on your opinion or view.
It's not a matter of being 'right' or 'wrong' it's about making a choice on how they want to run their community.. And this means they don't have to debate with you about any of their rules, they make them, if you can't abide by them find another server to play on.
So to complete this specific issue, regardless if a server admin knows about scripting OR not, they have the right to be able to run their server any way they want. PERIOD.
(Note, I'm not getting into how clan members present themselves, nor how the public generally reacts to clan players, or any mp_BS debates specifically. I wanted to address the original statement)
<!--QuoteBegin-TheAdj`+Nov 7 2004, 08:56 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (TheAdj` @ Nov 7 2004, 08:56 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> What Nadagast is trying to get is certain specific server communities that have very negative attitudes towards competitive players and what they represent to listen to the facts and understand what competitive players are trying to say. Saying "ogm clanners are evil scripters and we refuse to listen to what they say becuase scripts are exploits and aren't supposed to be used because I didn't know they were included in the hl engine and evil clan players use them and ruin by game because they can kill 40 skulks and that must be hacks or scripts" doesn't make clan players arrogant for calling that attitude ignorant. Arrogance is an overbearing self-pride of over-exhalted self-importance. I believe the lack of belief and ignoring of the competitive community makes clan players assert themselves more often, and results in the average player feeling clan players are overbearing. If instead of saying "clan players are arrogant because they say what they think" people listened to what some competitive players said, we would have much better communication and less retarded, worthless arguing that accomplishes nothing. We listen to what you say, now listen to what we say, and argue on facts and educated points of view, not worthless opinions based on lies and mis-information. Inform yourself about the game and how it works, and the things related to it, then use that information and argue from that. Informed people make informed decisions. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> *applause*
Nadagast, if I wasn't responding to your point, it's because I don't understand WTH your point is. You talk about things like blockscript misguidedly causing a rift in the community and denying people their passage into the "top of the ladder," clan play.
I explained the reason why we have things like blockscripts and special rules along with my personal opinion on why I think the clan scene doesn't matter worth jack, and that there is no "top of the ladder" when the goal is to have fun.
There is a reason these servers are attracting people, and it's because they enjoy the gameplay. If I create a server whose sole purpose is to deny clanners and vets entrance (which I have not, and would not), and people play there, it means that people enjoy playing without clanners and vets. If they found playing with clanners and vets to be more fun, they would not be playing there (if they don't know clanners and vets exist, then there's a bigger deficiency, which I'll discuss below).
New players tend to visit many different servers before they settle down. It's not like Bob Newbie will play on, to use your example, Lunixmonster for the first game and be tied there for the rest of his gaming career. Furthermore, there tends to be only one or two true newbies playing on a server with such a broad community base at one time, if at all. So it's ludicrous to suggest that a server is working against some sort of mass exodus into clan land. Rather, we find that it's the influence of other servers that usually drive newbies back to Lunixmonster begging for a res slot.
So maybe, instead of blaming a deficiency in the numbers joining clans (which is something I have no experience with) on the mindset of a few select pub servers, look at what the CLANS could be doing to recruit new members -- whether it be creating more and better servers organized towards clan-style NS, whatever that may be, or working together to make a really good website for all clans to post games, HLTV servers, and generate excitement for match-ups. Hell, it looks like the BUS, if and when it's ever released, will be some sort of aid to promote clanning.
EDIT: BTW, in case someone misinterprets "clan scene doesn't matter worth jack," I don't have any problem with clanners and I honestly really don't like the bad rap they get. It's just that I wouldn't care if their clan tags were all gone tomorrow and CAL vanished into the earth except insofar as everyone's wasted time commitment and general sorrow.
Inform ourselfves.... How can we inform ourselves if there are "lies" everywhere? I mean, at least provide some evidence that the things you say are true instead of telling players to go investigate such accusations themselves. I mean hell, look at American politics, people use websites which are not government sanctioned to state facts, such as if some politician was arrested for drunk driving 3 years ago which is a blatant lie for this example and claim that it is true and the source given is a reliable source.
Also, if arguing accomplishes nothing, why are does it happen so often? I mean, somewhere someone has to say "hrmm, you know, maybe he makes a good point!" Otherwise Nadagast would not have even created this thread.
<!--QuoteBegin-Nadagast+Nov 7 2004, 05:48 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Nadagast @ Nov 7 2004, 05:48 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Also (damn I have to edit a lot), please don't say that it's their server, they can do as they please. I know they can, but that is no excuse for voluntary ignorance. I respect your right to block scripts or whatever you wish, but basing your decisions out of ignorance is not justified and it does not improve the situation for anyone. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Zunni I said this in my first post... I understand they can do whatever they want with their server, that doesn't make it right =\
And other than that: I think I'm gonna stop posting on this thread. I'm just not a good enough writer to convincingly convey an argument apparantly <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin-Star+Nov 7 2004, 07:46 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Star @ Nov 7 2004, 07:46 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Nadagast+Nov 7 2004, 07:37 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Nadagast @ Nov 7 2004, 07:37 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Do you know how scripts work? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Unrelated. Some ancient wallhacks used holes in the HL rendering engine, doesn't mean they're okay. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> gl_zmax 0 ? <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Yeah, that was hilarious back when it happened. However, scripting is just using the HL console interface (the .txt files are for convenience so you don't have to retype it everytime) to macro completely legal commands - hence the wait ; safegaurd. If for some reason this wasn't considered part of NS, it would take 2 minutes to entirely remove it - essentially like forcing servers to run mp_blockscripts 1. Duhhhh.
Well since this threads all but dead: good luck in your match. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin-MrGunner+Nov 7 2004, 10:04 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (MrGunner @ Nov 7 2004, 10:04 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Oh no I actually like to win at a game that I enjoy. There must be something wrong with me. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Yet you only have fun if you win? Don't you have fun anywhere between? What about when the outcome is uncertain and you actually have to work to achieve victory?
Working hard and having large battles is what makes the game fun for me, don't care if I win or lose just so long as I get some real fighting in <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->. Fast wins suck, fast loses are even worse. Long wins when it appeared that it would have been a lose on your average gametime are my favorite to play <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->.
<!--QuoteBegin-MrGunner+Nov 7 2004, 11:04 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (MrGunner @ Nov 7 2004, 11:04 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Oh no I actually like to win at a game that I enjoy. There must be something wrong with me. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I cant remember the last time i played to win..... id rather have fun.... ironically... if im having fun... me and my team (i like to comm) usually win.... <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Oh yeah, I forgot to mention, "Fun" can be interpreted as differing things too, so it is a bad point to state for any reason. Such as, some people have "fun" by teamkilling everyone on FF servers, others by blocking the doors to prevent anyone on their team from getting through. Then some people have fun by building hives. So "fun" can be stated as "this is not a fun server" and "this server has fun players" at the same time and state totally opposite meanings.
Of course if you pay for a server then you're free to do things as you wish, is it right though to be making decisions based off a poor understanding and based off a prejudice. Nada is using blockscripts an example as the problem, where people are making decisions and judgements off rumours and heresay.
What nada wants is for people to cast aside any prejudices they might have and to stop making decisions and judgements based off poor education. People in the discussion forum people do not appreciate comments like Bush sucks, they do not expect people to make posts without any evidence to back them up, they do not expect posts based off prejudice which have no substance, why shouldn't it be the same here?
Most people do not know why blockscripts is on, they cannot give you a coherant arguement and back it up with facts, likewise most people do not know why they hate the clan scene. It's merely a bandwagon that people feel the need to jump on. These forums are the tabloid newspapers of the NS world, you don't believe everything you read in the Sun do you?
For NS to ever truely grow then the two scenes need to work as one, now granted public NS doesn't rely on the clanscene, but the clanscene does rely on public NS. And i think NS's future is intertwined with the clan scenes survival. Most of the success of CS comes from the growning e-sports and competitive side of it.
I think the developers, especially flayra need to ask themselves this, how does the management of the clan scene and it dying reflect on you and your product. What does every single player who tried to take the game to the next level slowing quitting say about your game?
I personally think the effects of myths that reside in random public servers are being a bit overstated on its effect to new players and their perceptions of clans in general. I agree to that it DOES effect the perceptions of people but not sway them to the point were it is stagnating the clan scene. I have witnessed many actions in which this 'ignorance' has manifested itself, but not to any significant degree in which I can’t find in other games.
I may disagree with the overall judgment of the effects in this debate, but I do believe it is prevalent to some degree. As for many people who have posted before me, I suggest reading over the thread in closer detail because many of you seem to have misinterpreted the meaning of this discussion. Either that, or I'm reading all your posts incorrectly <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->.
one problem is that every time a new nsplayer who has played the game for some days or weeks and wants to learn new stuff, he's heard of "scripting" and how it makes playing more convenient and he's seen skulks just fly past him at incredibly speeds, right at the start of the game. so he asks somwhere (forums, in-game, whatever) how to accomplish those things. in rush your worst stereotypes, claiming to him that scripts=hacks and bunnyhop=exploit that is only used by "clanners and vets". =/
also on the argument of "fun game" i want to say that i can have fun winning or losing, but if i lose (on a public server this is, mind you) because of others' mistakes then it is not fun.
i could play a perfect game, have the best fading in my whole ns career but my team did not get a second hive or more than 1 rt, and kept dying to lmg's in reactor room, and at the 7 minute mark i have 30 kills and 0 deaths, but the marines are outside our hive with sieges and jp's then no i did not have fun, i had one very frustrating game.
<!--QuoteBegin-lagger+Nov 8 2004, 06:19 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (lagger @ Nov 8 2004, 06:19 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I personally think the effects of myths that reside in random public servers are being a bit overstated on its effect to new players and their perceptions of clans in general. I agree to that it DOES effect the perceptions of people but not sway them to the point were it is stagnating the clan scene. I have witnessed many actions in which this 'ignorance' has manifested itself, but not to any significant degree in which I can’t find in other games. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Recruit some people straight out of the public pool, or talk to a clan formed out of such - you don't realize how receptive some people are to these things, and how deeply ingrained these mentalitys can become.
I agree it happens in every game, but you'll have to grant me that NS can't afford to have it happen to this extent. Fair enough?
<!--QuoteBegin-Nadagast+Nov 7 2004, 06:05 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Nadagast @ Nov 7 2004, 06:05 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-DarkEnligther+Nov 7 2004, 04:00 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (DarkEnligther @ Nov 7 2004, 04:00 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> *Jumps in Comm Chair:
Marine 1 go to the waypoint, stay with M2 Marine 1.. please? Marine 1.. c'mon, just go to the waypoint Marine 1, stop asking for meds, you'll get them when you listen Marine 1: OMG Comm woulndt drop meds!!!!111! admin kick!
Now this isn't a great example.. but there's a difference between being better than the average player and acting like a elitist. If you shoot better.. great, cover people building RTs, cover people in general. If you think that just because you're better you're somehow allowed to do whatever you want and that you're above the command chain.. think again.
I agree that a lot of players are very closed-minded.. which is a shame.. but a LOT of vets are ramboers / res ****. And the vet sign is starting to be a: stack this guys team sign, or a res **** sign.. which is a shame. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> First, there's nothing wrong with being a res ****. Aliens need fades/lerks to win the game. This doesn't mean that you should go Fade every single time on a pub, but seriously, if someone saves off the bat for Fade, they are no worse than the guy who dropped an RT, and BETTER than the guy who saved to 30 res, went gorge, and dropped 2 OCs at a random spot on the map.
Second, I think that following a comm's orders is all well and good, but if they tell you to do something dumb, then obviously I won't follow the order. If the game just started and the comm wants me to stay with these 4 terrible, slow moving marines, I'm not gonna do it. I'm gonna go kill a gorge who's dropping a node. Just because you're the commander doesn't mean you are all knowing or that you know what to do best at each moment. Drop your rambos meds/ammo, many times they will be good clanners and more than pay off for themselves in RFK. Not to mention there are many instances where going alone is beneficial. Early game it is beneficial, because I can kill skulks solo, and I can pressure the gorges much faster. It's beneficial to sneak 1 guy into the hive and spawn camp. It's beneficial to have 1 guy capping nodes on the far side while their team is distracted. It's beneficial to have a guy sneak a phase gate at a hive. Ramboing isn't always bad, and ramboing doesn't mean that the person isn't a teamplayer. Walking around with another marine isn't real teamplay... stuff like baiting, boosting, and welding is.
Last, pubs aren't supposed to be the haven for teamplay that many pubbers like to think of it as... It's a place where I can go and have a fun game (with voice_enable 0) and leave. If you want to get into some great teamplay, JOIN A CLAN. I can't stress this enough. It's like you're sitting there telling me "WTH WHERES TEAMPLAY," then you refuse to do what's necessary (join a clan) to find great teamplay. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> problem with that:
there are so few clans, and most are only recruiting 'serious' players, that those just looking for a good, fun, teamwork game WITHOUT caring about their personal stats arent really recruited.
ive been lookin for a clan to join for awhile now, as pubbing gets old... but none ive found are either A)recruiting, or B) interested in a player who isnt interested in serious competitive playing *i dont give a rats rear end what my w/l or k/d ration is. i just wanna play, and if i i die, i die, if we win, we win. if not, oh well, least it was fun, next game*. thats not to say all are, but its what i get when i try to join one of the few ive looked into *that arent completely new and dead in the water*
but yea, i agree, most peopole on pubs have their mind set, and dont wanna hear it. while ive never witnessed mistreatment of vets or clan players personally *since i drift from server to server*, i have witnessed the single-mindedness.
ChurchMeatshield grunt-fodder // Has pre-ordered NS2Join Date: 2002-12-31Member: 11646Members, Constellation
I can be a gorge for most the game in a PUG, have like zero kills, and still have fun while working together with the rest of my team to defeat the opposition. I don't care about my personal stats that much either, but that doesn't mean I can't help the team either.
Having fun and using teamwork is totally consistent with clan play (in fact there is usually more teamwork in clan play) and guess what, you can have fun and use teamwork AND be in a clan as long as you are "serious" about the game as in, you'll show up to practice, show up to matches, and be willing to put forth the effort! Though I'm sure people can name (whether fairly or not) a few example of clans that require you to be able to get like 100-0 k:d ratios as a Fade or something as part of the entrance test, not all clans are like that! Yes, there aren't that many recruiting clans right now. Well guess what? Why don't you try starting your own, with your own ideals of promoting fun and teamwork? I'm sure the clan scene would welcome the addition of anotehr clan, and undoubtedly many existing clanners will be willing ot give you guys advice/help if you ask for it nicely.
i would love to make my own clan. except for one thing: im no leader, and i know it. i havent the skill nor the time to lead a clan. <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/confused-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
So I read this right guys about a problem in NS no one wants to admit. But I don't care because convincing pubbers is like teaching people from the middle ages about philosophy and evolution.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->(Damnit this is something that forlorn would do <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--><!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This brings up a good point that I've said to quite a few people; I could leave this community and there will always be more just like me.
In other words people like me are a symptom of a larger problem.
Only one thing to say to this:
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA Please do not be insulted but I find it highly ironic how many times I've been offered teh ban when I'm just the frontline of a wave. You remove me and nothing happens.
And nadagast, don't worry about being a bad writer, every one else who has replied in this thread is no better than you are.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->My own theory on the clan scene doing so terribly in NS is that while other mods require competitive play to get a feeling of teamwork and accomplishment with fellow players (This is what I have found and heard throughout my years of HL gaming), Natural Selection did a very good job of incorporating this into "normal" games. There's no real drive to go to the competitive scene when one can already find teamwork in a normal game of NS, unless they wish to be in the spotlight or be recognized within certain circles as being a good player.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This goes back to nadagast's main point. You are speaking straight out of thin air. How can you say that when you are not a clanner?
Clanner = Pubber + competetion
Pubber = Pubber
Therefore
Clanner > Pubber In terms of experience and knowledge of the game
Imagine NS in terms of money;
Pub CS = 25,000 Clan CS = 100,000
Pub NS = 50,000 Clan NS = 200,000
Sure you could settle with NS being supperior to other games in your mind, but the fact is competetive play always makes a game so much better.
And by the way, I've been in <b>several</b> pub communities in my NS lifetime, including but not limited to:
HAMPTONS, FreeNS, and Predatorial-Selection, I used to regular them all at one point on a daily basis.
And I can say, you pub because you want to play the game but you clan because you want more out of it. Community wise, clanning is also much more enjoyable than pubbing is. I've made friends from this community and met them IRL. I've played poker with them.
It is both hilarious and damning of the pub community that they claim clanners are evil or bad or lamers or whatever, when in fact none of the people who have condemned clanners were clanners themselves. A perfect example of what Nadagast was talking about, and that is reinforced ignorance.
Too bad Saraph left NS, I'm sure he'd be able to point out the serious inconsistancies as well.
I'd rather not join your server on accident and download a ton of "cool" sounds, **** "fun" maps, and play massively retarded gameplay with "sweet" plugins like rocketlauncher and refrigerator bombs and whatnot.
<!--QuoteBegin-lagger+Nov 8 2004, 06:19 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (lagger @ Nov 8 2004, 06:19 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I may disagree with the overall judgment of the effects in this debate, but I do believe it is prevalent to some degree. As for many people who have posted before me, I suggest reading over the thread in closer detail because many of you seem to have misinterpreted the meaning of this discussion. Either that, or I'm reading all your posts incorrectly <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I'm just a terrible writer <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
I get the sense of community and competition I require out of pubbing. I feel no need to "take it to the next level", because I'm getting what I want out of the game. I don't understand what you are asking, honestly. How can I say that I have found teamwork and companionship in many public communities? When I've been playing the game for 2 years and would know what I've experienced? Your argument is based off of the assumption that the clanning community is more enjoyable than a pubbing community. That comes from your own experiences, and that's great, but that is hardly a factual statement that you could use to counter anything I've said.
I could just as easily say that a pubbing community is more enjoyable than a clan community, even without clanning myself, just because I hold different ideals as to what makes a community enjoyable. Judging from what I've seen in your general posting and activity on IRC, we <b>obviously</b> have completely different ideas as to what makes a good community and playing environment (I recall a long argument about how having more idlers in an IRC channel is better than a channel with less people that actually talk, and a post on what you think is important in a community).
<!--QuoteBegin-Ness-Earthbound+Nov 8 2004, 04:30 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Ness-Earthbound @ Nov 8 2004, 04:30 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I get the sense of community and competition I require out of pubbing. I feel no need to "take it to the next level", because I'm getting what I want out of the game. I don't understand what you are asking, honestly. How can I say that I have found teamwork and companionship in many public communities? When I've been playing the game for 2 years and would know what I've experienced? Your argument is based off of the assumption that the clanning community is more enjoyable than a pubbing community. That comes from your own experiences, and that's great, but that is hardly a factual statement that you could use to counter anything I've said.
I could just as easily say that a pubbing community is more enjoyable than a clan community, even without clanning myself, just because I hold different ideals as to what makes a community enjoyable. Judging from what I've seen in your general posting and activity on IRC, we <b>obviously</b> have completely different ideas as to what makes a good community and playing environment (I recall a long argument about how having more idlers in an IRC channel is better than a channel with less people that actually talk, and a post on what you think is important in a community). <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I know I said I wouldn't post, but things seem to have cooled down so I'll take the bait <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
This isn't my argument at all.... I said clanning isn't for everyone. The point of this post isn't to get people to join a clan (although that might be a side effect). Clans don't need to even enter into this post at all, forget I mentioned them. This post is about combatting ignorance...
QuaunautThe longest seven days in history...Join Date: 2003-03-21Member: 14759Members, Constellation, Reinforced - Shadow
Having had a tour in clan play(RR clan, aka the old obs- great clan), I can definately say that clan play is the best play there is. Teamwork, when put together correctly, is absolutely orgasmic. I've seen games where my team will have 2 fades, a lerk, a skulk, and 2 gorges just capping nodes, the skulk taking 'em down. The 2 fades easily keep the marines at bay, with the lerk's help.
As marine, its even more impressive- you'll have you're "natural born rambos"- that yes, they are rambos. But theres a difference between a rambo, and the oft-confused ninja- I've seen countless games won in both competitive and non competitive play thanks to 1 single "rambo"(ninja) that gets a phase next to the hive, and BAM its all over.
Clan play is faster than pub play. Its more fun overall too- while there are a lot of asshats in the community(myself included, though I'm not really in the clanning scene, but would like to be), there are even more nice people. I myself have massive respect for real clanners- not just the "for fun" clanners, but people who play their damned heart out in each and every scrim. I remember doing that for a month or two, and those were great times. Too bad I couldn't take jokes.
To wrap up: To your first post Nad, I fully, utterly, agree.
Ah, sorry, I should have quoted Forlorn. It's not like I haven't clanned, people. I know what alot of clanning communities are like. I've clanned for TFC, CS, been in and lead squads for various Delta Force games. I've always clanned in these mods and games because I did not find a sense of teamwork and companionship in them, and had to clan to get that. I would join a sniper squad for Delta Force back in the day when I needed to be a part of a team. Now I just join any NS server, and usually I'm a part of a cooperative team. I get all I need now, without needing to bother with worrying about my clan's status, practices, etc. In NS, all I had to do was find a server to regular on, and I was part of a great community. Didn't matter if it was RedPhive, Nano-Gridlock, Lunixmonster, etc, I always had a great time and felt absolutely no need to join the competitive scene. I'm not just pulling my theory out of thin air here, I'm basing it off my own experiences and from a great many discussions I've had with people. Just because it's a differing view does not mean I don't know what the hell I'm talking about.
The points that Nadagast first mentioned is only too true, he wasn't focusing on the admins of those servers he mentioned though it seems like the argument has delinerated towards that, he's speaking about the community of those servers in general. It seems like 75% of the players that command on Voogru G4B2S server <b>loves</b> to either build turrets at base or try to get a massive two hive turret lockdown. After fustratingly playing through one of these failure of an attempt, where even an average team is able to overwhelm the marine team due to lack of upgrades, I try to explain and educate the marines about turret farming and how they are pretty unnecessary. Perhaps it's because I am in #cri or have a vet-tag on, they quickly scoffed the idea of getting armor 1 early, saying 'You don't need it early on, its more important to get turrets'. I then try to explain to them why armor 1 > turrets, then I quickly get called a n00b and whatnot, with the rest of the regular marines on the team supporting that uniformed commander. It's stuff like that that really fustrates me as an experienced player of the game, you try to be nice and help make the general skill level (not just knowing how to aim but the better ways of gameplay) only to get shrugged off without a second of consideration. Atleast the other regulars or admins of the server should be doing the same, or emphasizing that fact.
As for Lunixmonster, I had no problems with the server till the other day. I know they had the rule about no advertisements, I usually play with the # off of #cri even though it made absolutely no sense to me. I mean that's like telling someone with the last name 'Coors' you can't use your last name because it's the same as the beer company, so you're advertising. #cri has worked hard to establish itself as a long time clan, for better or for worse, yet it's not allowed for you to show your loyalty and support for your OWN clan because you can't have #. I have to thank Redford though for trying to stand up for us using #cri, but he was overuled. My teammate Gunner thought the rule was dumb and said he was going to leave the server after the round we were playing on, because he doesn't like the stupid # rule and I support his actions, of course for some reason that gives the admin an excuse to ban me first, and probably Gunner next. Perhaps it's just a coincidence that we were both in #cri and somehow there is a 2for1 special on banning that day, or we just weren't liked because of the clan we are in.
Things definately need a change for the better in the NS community in general or the deterioation will continue. Skill and educated gameplay as more experienced players filter out due to lack of interest or fustration, only to be replaced by newer players who are being told half-truths or outright lies about certain aspects of the game by those who are ignorant and uneducated. Seems like CS, TFC, DoD clanscene hold a good portion, even a majority over the pub scene because the players there look up to the better clans in the game, wanting to learn how to try to raise their skill to that level. It seems like NS is the only mod where some people are content on playing nubtacular fun, turret farming over and over again, feeding aliens res over and over again then wonder why the marines lose, in general deteriorating the quality of the players of this game.
<!--QuoteBegin-Quaunaut+Nov 8 2004, 04:43 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Quaunaut @ Nov 8 2004, 04:43 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Having had a tour in clan play(RR clan, aka the old obs- great clan), I can definately say that clan play is the best play there is. Teamwork, when put together correctly, is absolutely orgasmic. I've seen games where my team will have 2 fades, a lerk, a skulk, and 2 gorges just capping nodes, the skulk taking 'em down. The 2 fades easily keep the marines at bay, with the lerk's help.
As marine, its even more impressive- you'll have you're "natural born rambos"- that yes, they are rambos. But theres a difference between a rambo, and the oft-confused ninja- I've seen countless games won in both competitive and non competitive play thanks to 1 single "rambo"(ninja) that gets a phase next to the hive, and BAM its all over.
Clan play is faster than pub play. Its more fun overall too- while there are a lot of asshats in the community(myself included, though I'm not really in the clanning scene, but would like to be), there are even more nice people. I myself have massive respect for real clanners- not just the "for fun" clanners, but people who play their damned heart out in each and every scrim. I remember doing that for a month or two, and those were great times. Too bad I couldn't take jokes.
To wrap up: To your first post Nad, I fully, utterly, agree. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I sense a group hug coming on <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Seriously if you have a bad taste in your mouth about clanners (I realize this goes against what I just posted but I'm an idiot like that), get on IRC... join a pug in #nspug, or pm a clanner if you want to ask a question or just talk. There are a few retards, but generally we're good people :o
QuaunautThe longest seven days in history...Join Date: 2003-03-21Member: 14759Members, Constellation, Reinforced - Shadow
<!--QuoteBegin-crisano+Nov 8 2004, 02:46 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (crisano @ Nov 8 2004, 02:46 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> The points that Nadagast first mentioned is only too true, he wasn't focusing on the admins of those servers he mentioned though it seems like the argument has delinerated towards that, he's speaking about the community of those servers in general. It seems like 75% of the players that command on Voogru G4B2S server <b>loves</b> to either build turrets at base or try to get a massive two hive turret lockdown. After fustratingly playing through one of these failure of an attempt, where even an average team is able to overwhelm the marine team due to lack of upgrades, I try to explain and educate the marines about turret farming and how they are pretty unnecessary. Perhaps it's because I am in #cri or have a vet-tag on, they quickly scoffed the idea of getting armor 1 early, saying 'You don't need it early on, its more important to get turrets'. I then try to explain to them why armor 1 > turrets, then I quickly get called a n00b and whatnot, with the rest of the regular marines on the team supporting that uniformed commander. It's stuff like that that really fustrates me as an experienced player of the game, you try to be nice and help make the general skill level (not just knowing how to aim but the better ways of gameplay) only to get shrugged off without a second of consideration. Atleast the other regulars or admins of the server should be doing the same, or emphasizing that fact.
As for Lunixmonster, I had no problems with the server till the other day. I know they had the rule about no advertisements, I usually play with the # off of #cri even though it made absolutely no sense to me. I mean that's like telling someone with the last name 'Coors' you can't use your last name because it's the same as the beer company, so you're advertising. #cri has worked hard to establish itself as a long time clan, for better or for worse, yet it's not allowed for you to show your loyalty and support for your OWN clan because you can't have #. I have to thank Redford though for trying to stand up for us using #cri, but he was overuled. My teammate Gunner thought the rule was dumb and said he was going to leave the server after the round we were playing on, because he doesn't like the stupid # rule and I support his actions, of course for some reason that gives the admin an excuse to ban me first, and probably Gunner next. Perhaps it's just a coincidence that we were both in #cri and somehow there is a 2for1 special on banning that day, or we just weren't liked because of the clan we are in.
Things definately need a change for the better in the NS community in general or the deterioation will continue. Skill and educated gameplay as more experienced players filter out due to lack of interest or fustration, only to be replaced by newer players who are being told half-truths or outright lies about certain aspects of the game by those who are ignorant and uneducated. Seems like CS, TFC, DoD clanscene hold a good portion, even a majority over the pub scene because the players there look up to the better clans in the game, wanting to learn how to try to raise their skill to that level. It seems like NS is the only mod where some people are content on playing nubtacular fun, turret farming over and over again, feeding aliens res over and over again then wonder why the marines lose, in general deteriorating the quality of the players of this game. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I'm sad to admit that while I love lunixmonster, its true that they hate clanners.
I've seen people keep on saying racist things, and they won't be banned for a long time- I've seen people have even worse names spam things and not be banned for a long time.
But a #cri member? BAM- right out the gate, their gone.
Its sad, really. I think that whole "No Advertising" rule is pure and absolute BS- its half the reason I don't play at LM anymore(other half is, my mic is broken, so NS teamwork is a lot...more impossible. Damned people not listening to text). I've debated it on behalf of #cri, #nslearn, and several other great orginization/clans, but no one ever thinks that there is no problem with them.
Then again, a lot of people have been abandoning #LM thanks to rather asshatted rules, and a way-too-lax for comfort adminning system. Either that, or different MMOs steal their life D:
Comments
Any server admin/community has the right to run their server anyway (rules etc) they want.. for whatever reasons they want.
They are 'paying' for the server (box/bandwidth etc) and as such have the right to make any decisions they want.
What this means to you (Nadagast): is that any server that wants to have Blockscripts enabled (for example) regardless if they can script or not, has the right to do this. And you have a choice.. Play there.. or don't....
It's like trying to tell any religious person that their religion is wrong because of your world view. Even if you had talked to 'God' himself, and was told explicitely that the correct religion was Baptist (for example), doesn't mean that you would/should be able to walk into another church and shut it down based solely on your opinion or view.
It's not a matter of being 'right' or 'wrong' it's about making a choice on how they want to run their community.. And this means they don't have to debate with you about any of their rules, they make them, if you can't abide by them find another server to play on.
So to complete this specific issue, regardless if a server admin knows about scripting OR not, they have the right to be able to run their server any way they want. PERIOD.
(Note, I'm not getting into how clan members present themselves, nor how the public generally reacts to clan players, or any mp_BS debates specifically. I wanted to address the original statement)
*applause*
I explained the reason why we have things like blockscripts and special rules along with my personal opinion on why I think the clan scene doesn't matter worth jack, and that there is no "top of the ladder" when the goal is to have fun.
There is a reason these servers are attracting people, and it's because they enjoy the gameplay. If I create a server whose sole purpose is to deny clanners and vets entrance (which I have not, and would not), and people play there, it means that people enjoy playing without clanners and vets. If they found playing with clanners and vets to be more fun, they would not be playing there (if they don't know clanners and vets exist, then there's a bigger deficiency, which I'll discuss below).
New players tend to visit many different servers before they settle down. It's not like Bob Newbie will play on, to use your example, Lunixmonster for the first game and be tied there for the rest of his gaming career. Furthermore, there tends to be only one or two true newbies playing on a server with such a broad community base at one time, if at all. So it's ludicrous to suggest that a server is working against some sort of mass exodus into clan land. Rather, we find that it's the influence of other servers that usually drive newbies back to Lunixmonster begging for a res slot.
So maybe, instead of blaming a deficiency in the numbers joining clans (which is something I have no experience with) on the mindset of a few select pub servers, look at what the CLANS could be doing to recruit new members -- whether it be creating more and better servers organized towards clan-style NS, whatever that may be, or working together to make a really good website for all clans to post games, HLTV servers, and generate excitement for match-ups. Hell, it looks like the BUS, if and when it's ever released, will be some sort of aid to promote clanning.
EDIT:
BTW, in case someone misinterprets "clan scene doesn't matter worth jack," I don't have any problem with clanners and I honestly really don't like the bad rap they get. It's just that I wouldn't care if their clan tags were all gone tomorrow and CAL vanished into the earth except insofar as everyone's wasted time commitment and general sorrow.
Also, if arguing accomplishes nothing, why are does it happen so often? I mean, somewhere someone has to say "hrmm, you know, maybe he makes a good point!" Otherwise Nadagast would not have even created this thread.
Zunni I said this in my first post... I understand they can do whatever they want with their server, that doesn't make it right =\
And other than that: I think I'm gonna stop posting on this thread. I'm just not a good enough writer to convincingly convey an argument apparantly <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Unrelated. Some ancient wallhacks used holes in the HL rendering engine, doesn't mean they're okay.
<!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
gl_zmax 0 ? <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Yeah, that was hilarious back when it happened. However, scripting is just using the HL console interface (the .txt files are for convenience so you don't have to retype it everytime) to macro completely legal commands - hence the wait ; safegaurd. If for some reason this wasn't considered part of NS, it would take 2 minutes to entirely remove it - essentially like forcing servers to run mp_blockscripts 1. Duhhhh.
Yet you only have fun if you win? Don't you have fun anywhere between? What about when the outcome is uncertain and you actually have to work to achieve victory?
Working hard and having large battles is what makes the game fun for me, don't care if I win or lose just so long as I get some real fighting in <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->. Fast wins suck, fast loses are even worse. Long wins when it appeared that it would have been a lose on your average gametime are my favorite to play <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->.
I cant remember the last time i played to win..... id rather have fun.... ironically... if im having fun... me and my team (i like to comm) usually win.... <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Something about the whole morale thing.... :-P
~Jason
What nada wants is for people to cast aside any prejudices they might have and to stop making decisions and judgements based off poor education. People in the discussion forum people do not appreciate comments like Bush sucks, they do not expect people to make posts without any evidence to back them up, they do not expect posts based off prejudice which have no substance, why shouldn't it be the same here?
Most people do not know why blockscripts is on, they cannot give you a coherant arguement and back it up with facts, likewise most people do not know why they hate the clan scene. It's merely a bandwagon that people feel the need to jump on. These forums are the tabloid newspapers of the NS world, you don't believe everything you read in the Sun do you?
For NS to ever truely grow then the two scenes need to work as one, now granted public NS doesn't rely on the clanscene, but the clanscene does rely on public NS. And i think NS's future is intertwined with the clan scenes survival. Most of the success of CS comes from the growning e-sports and competitive side of it.
I think the developers, especially flayra need to ask themselves this, how does the management of the clan scene and it dying reflect on you and your product. What does every single player who tried to take the game to the next level slowing quitting say about your game?
I may disagree with the overall judgment of the effects in this debate, but I do believe it is prevalent to some degree. As for many people who have posted before me, I suggest reading over the thread in closer detail because many of you seem to have misinterpreted the meaning of this discussion. Either that, or I'm reading all your posts incorrectly <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->.
also on the argument of "fun game" i want to say that i can have fun winning or losing, but if i lose (on a public server this is, mind you) because of others' mistakes then it is not fun.
i could play a perfect game, have the best fading in my whole ns career but my team did not get a second hive or more than 1 rt, and kept dying to lmg's in reactor room, and at the 7 minute mark i have 30 kills and 0 deaths, but the marines are outside our hive with sieges and jp's then no i did not have fun, i had one very frustrating game.
Recruit some people straight out of the public pool, or talk to a clan formed out of such - you don't realize how receptive some people are to these things, and how deeply ingrained these mentalitys can become.
I agree it happens in every game, but you'll have to grant me that NS can't afford to have it happen to this extent. Fair enough?
Marine 1 go to the waypoint, stay with M2
Marine 1.. please?
Marine 1.. c'mon, just go to the waypoint
Marine 1, stop asking for meds, you'll get them when you listen
Marine 1: OMG Comm woulndt drop meds!!!!111! admin kick!
Now this isn't a great example.. but there's a difference between being better than the average player and acting like a elitist.
If you shoot better.. great, cover people building RTs, cover people in general.
If you think that just because you're better you're somehow allowed to do whatever you want and that you're above the command chain.. think again.
I agree that a lot of players are very closed-minded.. which is a shame.. but a LOT of vets are ramboers / res ****. And the vet sign is starting to be a: stack this guys team sign, or a res **** sign.. which is a shame. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
First, there's nothing wrong with being a res ****. Aliens need fades/lerks to win the game. This doesn't mean that you should go Fade every single time on a pub, but seriously, if someone saves off the bat for Fade, they are no worse than the guy who dropped an RT, and BETTER than the guy who saved to 30 res, went gorge, and dropped 2 OCs at a random spot on the map.
Second, I think that following a comm's orders is all well and good, but if they tell you to do something dumb, then obviously I won't follow the order. If the game just started and the comm wants me to stay with these 4 terrible, slow moving marines, I'm not gonna do it. I'm gonna go kill a gorge who's dropping a node. Just because you're the commander doesn't mean you are all knowing or that you know what to do best at each moment. Drop your rambos meds/ammo, many times they will be good clanners and more than pay off for themselves in RFK.
Not to mention there are many instances where going alone is beneficial. Early game it is beneficial, because I can kill skulks solo, and I can pressure the gorges much faster. It's beneficial to sneak 1 guy into the hive and spawn camp. It's beneficial to have 1 guy capping nodes on the far side while their team is distracted. It's beneficial to have a guy sneak a phase gate at a hive. Ramboing isn't always bad, and ramboing doesn't mean that the person isn't a teamplayer. Walking around with another marine isn't real teamplay... stuff like baiting, boosting, and welding is.
Last, pubs aren't supposed to be the haven for teamplay that many pubbers like to think of it as... It's a place where I can go and have a fun game (with voice_enable 0) and leave. If you want to get into some great teamplay, JOIN A CLAN. I can't stress this enough. It's like you're sitting there telling me "WTH WHERES TEAMPLAY," then you refuse to do what's necessary (join a clan) to find great teamplay. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
problem with that:
there are so few clans, and most are only recruiting 'serious' players, that those just looking for a good, fun, teamwork game WITHOUT caring about their personal stats arent really recruited.
ive been lookin for a clan to join for awhile now, as pubbing gets old... but none ive found are either A)recruiting, or B) interested in a player who isnt interested in serious competitive playing *i dont give a rats rear end what my w/l or k/d ration is. i just wanna play, and if i i die, i die, if we win, we win. if not, oh well, least it was fun, next game*. thats not to say all are, but its what i get when i try to join one of the few ive looked into *that arent completely new and dead in the water*
but yea, i agree, most peopole on pubs have their mind set, and dont wanna hear it. while ive never witnessed mistreatment of vets or clan players personally *since i drift from server to server*, i have witnessed the single-mindedness.
Having fun and using teamwork is totally consistent with clan play (in fact there is usually more teamwork in clan play) and guess what, you can have fun and use teamwork AND be in a clan as long as you are "serious" about the game as in, you'll show up to practice, show up to matches, and be willing to put forth the effort! Though I'm sure people can name (whether fairly or not) a few example of clans that require you to be able to get like 100-0 k:d ratios as a Fade or something as part of the entrance test, not all clans are like that! Yes, there aren't that many recruiting clans right now. Well guess what? Why don't you try starting your own, with your own ideals of promoting fun and teamwork? I'm sure the clan scene would welcome the addition of anotehr clan, and undoubtedly many existing clanners will be willing ot give you guys advice/help if you ask for it nicely.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->(Damnit this is something that forlorn would do <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--><!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This brings up a good point that I've said to quite a few people; I could leave this community and there will always be more just like me.
In other words people like me are a symptom of a larger problem.
Only one thing to say to this:
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
Please do not be insulted but I find it highly ironic how many times I've been offered teh ban when I'm just the frontline of a wave. You remove me and nothing happens.
And nadagast, don't worry about being a bad writer, every one else who has replied in this thread is no better than you are.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->My own theory on the clan scene doing so terribly in NS is that while other mods require competitive play to get a feeling of teamwork and accomplishment with fellow players (This is what I have found and heard throughout my years of HL gaming), Natural Selection did a very good job of incorporating this into "normal" games. There's no real drive to go to the competitive scene when one can already find teamwork in a normal game of NS, unless they wish to be in the spotlight or be recognized within certain circles as being a good player.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This goes back to nadagast's main point. You are speaking straight out of thin air. How can you say that when you are not a clanner?
Clanner = Pubber + competetion
Pubber = Pubber
Therefore
Clanner > Pubber
In terms of experience and knowledge of the game
Imagine NS in terms of money;
Pub CS = 25,000
Clan CS = 100,000
Pub NS = 50,000
Clan NS = 200,000
Sure you could settle with NS being supperior to other games in your mind, but the fact is competetive play always makes a game so much better.
And by the way, I've been in <b>several</b> pub communities in my NS lifetime, including but not limited to:
HAMPTONS, FreeNS, and Predatorial-Selection, I used to regular them all at one point on a daily basis.
And I can say, you pub because you want to play the game but you clan because you want more out of it.
Community wise, clanning is also much more enjoyable than pubbing is. I've made friends from this community and met them IRL. I've played poker with them.
It is both hilarious and damning of the pub community that they claim clanners are evil or bad or lamers or whatever, when in fact none of the people who have condemned clanners were clanners themselves. A perfect example of what Nadagast was talking about, and that is reinforced ignorance.
Too bad Saraph left NS, I'm sure he'd be able to point out the serious inconsistancies as well.
steamid 0 0 20786
I'd rather not join your server on accident and download a ton of "cool" sounds, **** "fun" maps, and play massively retarded gameplay with "sweet" plugins like rocketlauncher and refrigerator bombs and whatnot.
thanks <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
I'm just a terrible writer <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
I could just as easily say that a pubbing community is more enjoyable than a clan community, even without clanning myself, just because I hold different ideals as to what makes a community enjoyable. Judging from what I've seen in your general posting and activity on IRC, we <b>obviously</b> have completely different ideas as to what makes a good community and playing environment (I recall a long argument about how having more idlers in an IRC channel is better than a channel with less people that actually talk, and a post on what you think is important in a community).
I could just as easily say that a pubbing community is more enjoyable than a clan community, even without clanning myself, just because I hold different ideals as to what makes a community enjoyable. Judging from what I've seen in your general posting and activity on IRC, we <b>obviously</b> have completely different ideas as to what makes a good community and playing environment (I recall a long argument about how having more idlers in an IRC channel is better than a channel with less people that actually talk, and a post on what you think is important in a community). <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I know I said I wouldn't post, but things seem to have cooled down so I'll take the bait <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
This isn't my argument at all.... I said clanning isn't for everyone. The point of this post isn't to get people to join a clan (although that might be a side effect). Clans don't need to even enter into this post at all, forget I mentioned them. This post is about combatting ignorance...
As marine, its even more impressive- you'll have you're "natural born rambos"- that yes, they are rambos. But theres a difference between a rambo, and the oft-confused ninja- I've seen countless games won in both competitive and non competitive play thanks to 1 single "rambo"(ninja) that gets a phase next to the hive, and BAM its all over.
Clan play is faster than pub play. Its more fun overall too- while there are a lot of asshats in the community(myself included, though I'm not really in the clanning scene, but would like to be), there are even more nice people. I myself have massive respect for real clanners- not just the "for fun" clanners, but people who play their damned heart out in each and every scrim. I remember doing that for a month or two, and those were great times. Too bad I couldn't take jokes.
To wrap up: To your first post Nad, I fully, utterly, agree.
As for Lunixmonster, I had no problems with the server till the other day. I know they had the rule about no advertisements, I usually play with the # off of #cri even though it made absolutely no sense to me. I mean that's like telling someone with the last name 'Coors' you can't use your last name because it's the same as the beer company, so you're advertising. #cri has worked hard to establish itself as a long time clan, for better or for worse, yet it's not allowed for you to show your loyalty and support for your OWN clan because you can't have #. I have to thank Redford though for trying to stand up for us using #cri, but he was overuled. My teammate Gunner thought the rule was dumb and said he was going to leave the server after the round we were playing on, because he doesn't like the stupid # rule and I support his actions, of course for some reason that gives the admin an excuse to ban me first, and probably Gunner next. Perhaps it's just a coincidence that we were both in #cri and somehow there is a 2for1 special on banning that day, or we just weren't liked because of the clan we are in.
Things definately need a change for the better in the NS community in general or the deterioation will continue. Skill and educated gameplay as more experienced players filter out due to lack of interest or fustration, only to be replaced by newer players who are being told half-truths or outright lies about certain aspects of the game by those who are ignorant and uneducated. Seems like CS, TFC, DoD clanscene hold a good portion, even a majority over the pub scene because the players there look up to the better clans in the game, wanting to learn how to try to raise their skill to that level. It seems like NS is the only mod where some people are content on playing nubtacular fun, turret farming over and over again, feeding aliens res over and over again then wonder why the marines lose, in general deteriorating the quality of the players of this game.
As marine, its even more impressive- you'll have you're "natural born rambos"- that yes, they are rambos. But theres a difference between a rambo, and the oft-confused ninja- I've seen countless games won in both competitive and non competitive play thanks to 1 single "rambo"(ninja) that gets a phase next to the hive, and BAM its all over.
Clan play is faster than pub play. Its more fun overall too- while there are a lot of asshats in the community(myself included, though I'm not really in the clanning scene, but would like to be), there are even more nice people. I myself have massive respect for real clanners- not just the "for fun" clanners, but people who play their damned heart out in each and every scrim. I remember doing that for a month or two, and those were great times. Too bad I couldn't take jokes.
To wrap up: To your first post Nad, I fully, utterly, agree. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I sense a group hug coming on <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Seriously if you have a bad taste in your mouth about clanners (I realize this goes against what I just posted but I'm an idiot like that), get on IRC... join a pug in #nspug, or pm a clanner if you want to ask a question or just talk. There are a few retards, but generally we're good people :o
As for Lunixmonster, I had no problems with the server till the other day. I know they had the rule about no advertisements, I usually play with the # off of #cri even though it made absolutely no sense to me. I mean that's like telling someone with the last name 'Coors' you can't use your last name because it's the same as the beer company, so you're advertising. #cri has worked hard to establish itself as a long time clan, for better or for worse, yet it's not allowed for you to show your loyalty and support for your OWN clan because you can't have #. I have to thank Redford though for trying to stand up for us using #cri, but he was overuled. My teammate Gunner thought the rule was dumb and said he was going to leave the server after the round we were playing on, because he doesn't like the stupid # rule and I support his actions, of course for some reason that gives the admin an excuse to ban me first, and probably Gunner next. Perhaps it's just a coincidence that we were both in #cri and somehow there is a 2for1 special on banning that day, or we just weren't liked because of the clan we are in.
Things definately need a change for the better in the NS community in general or the deterioation will continue. Skill and educated gameplay as more experienced players filter out due to lack of interest or fustration, only to be replaced by newer players who are being told half-truths or outright lies about certain aspects of the game by those who are ignorant and uneducated. Seems like CS, TFC, DoD clanscene hold a good portion, even a majority over the pub scene because the players there look up to the better clans in the game, wanting to learn how to try to raise their skill to that level. It seems like NS is the only mod where some people are content on playing nubtacular fun, turret farming over and over again, feeding aliens res over and over again then wonder why the marines lose, in general deteriorating the quality of the players of this game. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm sad to admit that while I love lunixmonster, its true that they hate clanners.
I've seen people keep on saying racist things, and they won't be banned for a long time- I've seen people have even worse names spam things and not be banned for a long time.
But a #cri member? BAM- right out the gate, their gone.
Its sad, really. I think that whole "No Advertising" rule is pure and absolute BS- its half the reason I don't play at LM anymore(other half is, my mic is broken, so NS teamwork is a lot...more impossible. Damned people not listening to text). I've debated it on behalf of #cri, #nslearn, and several other great orginization/clans, but no one ever thinks that there is no problem with them.
Then again, a lot of people have been abandoning #LM thanks to rather asshatted rules, and a way-too-lax for comfort adminning system. Either that, or different MMOs steal their life D: