<!--QuoteBegin-NEO_Phyte+Nov 7 2004, 07:58 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (NEO_Phyte @ Nov 7 2004, 07:58 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--Alpha-+Nov 7 2004, 06:52 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (-Alpha- @ Nov 7 2004, 06:52 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Nada the answer your seeking for is simple. Many players neither want to be good nor be destroyed round after round.
You see, there are many players who in a years time of playing this game have made about a 0% improvement. Those who improve in pubs search themselves for something more challanging when they are ready. Obviously those who play in servers like voogru's neither want to improve nor be raped by you. Their not really closed minded the way you think, they just dont want to admit to you their inability to learn the game. The end. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> while this can be true, another way of looking at it is:
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The answer your seeking for is simple. Many players just want to have fun.
You see, there are many players who in a years time of playing this game have made about a 0% improvement. Those who improve in pubs search themselves for something more challanging when they are ready. Obviously those who play in servers like voogru's just want to have fun. Their not really closed minded the way you think, they are just trying to have fun, and feel that allowing scripts detracts from the fun factor.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
[opinion] while this may not be 100% accurate, i personally feel that it is more accuate than alpha's post [/opinion] <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> View of the clanner vs pubber. Their both correct.
As we speak, there are 1600 unique players playing Natural Selection according to steampowered.com. How many of those players do you think are good enough to be in a clan, have ever been in a clan, or will ever be in a clan? I'm going to give you a generous 10% of the playerbase. Mind you, I'm not talking about groups of players that like going around with the same tag, I'm talking about an actual clan where everyone scrims and has matches on a regular basis.
Out of the other 90%, how many do you think know what CAL is, have watched a CAL match, or care about the outcome of CAL, let alone some random clan match? I think very few. As the ever-compelling anecdotal evidence, I've played online games since, essentially, the beginning of online games, and neither myself nor any of my friends have been in a clan or care what happens in clan matches in any game.
To the average NS player, the bread and butter of the populace that plays NS and will pay for it if it's commercially released, clans are just something you hear about in the distance once in a while. Players come for the unique gameplay and the high-tech marines vs. aliens theme. They stay because they're enjoying the game and have found a group of people who share their enjoyment.
I will tell you some of the most frustrating things in NS that would deter potential community members. The first is being spawncamped, either as marines or aliens. Whether you put yourself in the position or not, sitting in the spawn queue to achieve a brief second of life before being devoured or SGed is not a fun time.
The second is playing on a server where if you're not skilled, or if you deviate from optimal strategy and try to play for fun once in a while, your teammates are going to start mocking you and/or yelling at you.
The third is being killed by lame tactics like structure blocking, or being griefed by a teammate on a continual basis (for instance, an onos blocking a doorway -- I've seen it happen several times before).
If plugging those holes squeezes the life out of the clan community (which, frankly, I don't see), then, well, it's for the good of the game. Sorry.
Mp_blockscripts... eh, I don't really care, on or off. I used scripts back in TFC and that's it. Yes, I know what they do and I've heard how I'm handicapping myself by not using them, etc, but I play NS for fun, not to play optimally at every second. If a server admin wants to attract more like-minded people, that's their perogative, and will foster a community that enjoys playing with scripts off. Again, most people don't use scripts, certainly not new players who we're worried about scaring off.
The irony of all this, of course, is that at least one of the servers you're talking about is strictly vanilla NS to the point of having the normal mapcycle, except for an admin mod (strictly for admining and res slotting) and a couple anti-lame rules.
What I understand this thread to be about is that "pub servers" specifically a few you have listed, are ignorant. You state this ignorance is a blind hate of pubbers and anyone with skill. You also demand specific people that have been seen to be mean players. Well, what I ask of you is could you tell us who has been treating clanners and vets badly? I mean, hell, I am a member of The Lunixmonster community and we have our fair share of vets and clanncers, although a few we have departed with for various reasons. Saltzbad being one of these players, oh look, I named a name!
Now, the real reason no one names names is because then it will become a flame war. If everyone went and made a list of every clanner/vet that they have had a horrible time ingame with, then you would get them coming back with why they were so horrible and that the specific players whom are making such accusations suck.
I also don't see what you have against mp_blockscripts, I mean the only thing I have against it is the fact that I can't type +use in console. Hell, everyone has said so themselves, they can play fine without scripts it is mainly for convenience. I can't type +use in console, you don't see me parading around everywhere spamming how ignorant everyone is for enforcing such a thing.
Spawncamping is fun, especially since if you can spawncamp you can take down that hive. I am not very skilled and I have taken down the hive with ONE other person before, whom was quite skilled himself. That was about one minute into game, didn't really have any upgrades at all yet the skulks couldn't fly out of the way as they spawned in at one of the hives of ns_altair allowing me to LMG the hive down. You don't need to F4 if the game is half a minute away, you also don't need to recycle unless you have some onos devouring every marine who spawns. I mean hell, if the round is so horrible that you WILL lose, why not just wait that short amount of time? I mean, if you aren't attacked, you can push back. If the other team just walls you in with turrets, have every single person rush it in a group.
I don't hate all clanners/vets, although I do hate the majority of clanners/vets who have been banned off lunixmonster excluding about four or five of them whom I am quite fond of.
Oh, I don't think you can win this battle, nadagast, especially since you are "ignorant" in your ways also. I mean hell, neither side will admit they are wrong in any way, what's the point?
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Hmm let's see, they can help you bunnyhop by removing most of the challenge in it. They can fire your pistol insanely fast without the lowered accuracy that comes from clicking a lot. They can even assist in movement exploits like wigglewalk. Sounds perfectly innocent to me.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->Have you even bothered reading what others have been posting?
Bunnhop - I have my n52 set to send the jump command repeatedly. It still hasn't helped me bunnyhop perfectly. I'm still practicing bunnyhoping and have been doing so for several weeks.
Pistol script - I can fire my pistol just as fast and accurately without scripting than I can with my n52. Oh wow. It's called practice. It just causes less wear & tear on my mx510.
Wigglewalk - like the pistol script, I can wigglewalk just as fast with as without. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
I'm not saying the players are bad (I don't care), I'm not saying they hate clanners (although some do, and it's part of the problem)... I've said that these pubs are ignorant to the facts surrounding clans, scripts, and good players. Someone asked what I mean by ignorant, I mean that they don't know much, if anything, about them, and they have beliefs about them caused by a sort of urban legend "my friend told me scripts could do x!" thing about them... This is worsened by the fact that they won't listen to the evidence, and refuse to provide any proof for what they believe (see the link to the G4B2S forums).
My post has NOTHING to do with how good a player someone is, or how much more 3l33t clanners are than pubbers (we both play for fun, I don't see why you think otherwise). It's about combatting voluntary ignorance on these 'taboo' subjects....
<!--QuoteBegin-Ness-Earthbound+Nov 7 2004, 07:57 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Ness-Earthbound @ Nov 7 2004, 07:57 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I'd put forth how my way of playing the mod is superior and if you didn't join me in playing that way, you would be inferior and need to admit it. Then again, I don't want to be arrogant. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> you're really misreading my post. I knew this would happen, and it's worse cuz I'm not a good writer.
I'm not saying a way of playing the game is better/worse. I like pubs just as much as any other guy...
I'm saying that if someone refuses to look at evidence/proof/facts for or against something they are voluntarily being ignorant to the topic. Get me? Surely you're not justifying sitting there and saying "I'm right, and you're wrong, and I'm not going to look at anything you say, because I'm right." Cuz that's what these servers are doing, and that's what I'm talking about.
I can't see how it could be fun to lose unless you are deliberately trying to do it. I mean something has to be wrong with you if you actually enjoy losing. As for blockscripts it really doesn't bother me that much because although there are quite a few servers with it running, for the most part those are servers not worth playing on. Mostly due to guys that don't know how to play ruining my fun, or arrogant admins banning me for something silly (like having a "#" in my name). Until CAL changes the rules to make scripts illegal I will keep using them, and playing on pubs with bright pink skulk models.
NEO_PhyteWe need shirtgons!Join Date: 2003-12-16Member: 24453Members, Constellation
<!--QuoteBegin-MrGunner+Nov 7 2004, 08:21 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (MrGunner @ Nov 7 2004, 08:21 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I can't see how it could be fun to lose unless you are deliberately trying to do it. I mean something has to be wrong with you if you actually enjoy losing. As for blockscripts it really doesn't bother me that much because although there are quite a few servers with it running, for the most part those are servers not worth playing on. Mostly due to guys that don't know how to play ruining my fun, or arrogant admins banning me for something silly (like having a "#" in my name). Until CAL changes the rules to make scripts illegal I will keep using them, and playing on pubs with bright pink skulk models. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> if you dont have fun playing the game, why do you to play the game in the first place?
if you HAVE to win to have fun, why did you not stop playing NS when you first started it? (im assuming you started as a noob)
<!--QuoteBegin-MrGunner+Nov 7 2004, 08:21 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (MrGunner @ Nov 7 2004, 08:21 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I can't see how it could be fun to lose unless you are deliberately trying to do it. I mean something has to be wrong with you if you actually enjoy losing. As for blockscripts it really doesn't bother me that much because although there are quite a few servers with it running, for the most part those are servers not worth playing on. Mostly due to guys that don't know how to play ruining my fun, or arrogant admins banning me for something silly (like having a "#" in my name). Until CAL changes the rules to make scripts illegal I will keep using them, and playing on pubs with bright pink skulk models. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Provided both teams play nice, that it is a roughly fair match and everyone is a good sport, a game of NS is always fun - win, loose or draw. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin-SageGaspar+Nov 7 2004, 08:11 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (SageGaspar @ Nov 7 2004, 08:11 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> As we speak, there are 1600 unique players playing Natural Selection according to steampowered.com. How many of those players do you think are good enough to be in a clan, have ever been in a clan, or will ever be in a clan? I'm going to give you a generous 10% of the playerbase. Mind you, I'm not talking about groups of players that like going around with the same tag, I'm talking about an actual clan where everyone scrims and has matches on a regular basis.
Out of the other 90%, how many do you think know what CAL is, have watched a CAL match, or care about the outcome of CAL, let alone some random clan match? I think very few. As the ever-compelling anecdotal evidence, I've played online games since, essentially, the beginning of online games, and neither myself nor any of my friends have been in a clan or care what happens in clan matches in any game. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Ok. Why do you think that is? NS has roughly double the amount of pubbers than TFC does at any given time, yet it has about half (or less) the number of clans. Why? I think it's because on many pub community servers, they are made to be evil, and the pub is said to be the height of teamwork (those darn evil no-teamwork-using clanners)! Again, I'm not saying every pub is like this, there are some on each side of the fence (and I commend NSA for being good to clanners and educated about scripts).
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->To the average NS player, the bread and butter of the populace that plays NS and will pay for it if it's commercially released, clans are just something you hear about in the distance once in a while. Players come for the unique gameplay and the high-tech marines vs. aliens theme. They stay because they're enjoying the game and have found a group of people who share their enjoyment.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Right and how is a clan any different from these groups of people? Clanning isn't for everyone, but that doesn't mean clanners should be viewed as evil/haxorz/scripterz. I distinctly remember going into [FAT] clan's IRC channel (it was a pub server) and saying that I was in a CAL clan or something. The admins (who had just banned me) replied that everyone in CAL is an evil scripter, then I got banned from the IRC channel <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/sad-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I will tell you some of the most frustrating things in NS that would deter potential community members. The first is being spawncamped, either as marines or aliens. Whether you put yourself in the position or not, sitting in the spawn queue to achieve a brief second of life before being devoured or SGed is not a fun time.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Spawncamping is a problem I agree, but that's because of the design of NS. If the objective you have to kill is also where the enemies spawn, that's bad. It's the alien's job to prevent getting spawn camped.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The second is playing on a server where if you're not skilled, or if you deviate from optimal strategy and try to play for fun once in a while, your teammates are going to start mocking you and/or yelling at you.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Right. I have no problem with going for the occasional hand grenade rush. However, the strats these pubs use actually make the game boring. Turret farm locking down both hives is BORING. Anyway, this wasn't the point of the post at all, so if you disagree, just drop it. It isn't relevant to the point...
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The third is being killed by lame tactics like structure blocking, or being griefed by a teammate on a continual basis (for instance, an onos blocking a doorway -- I've seen it happen several times before).<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree with you, buildings shouldn't block until they are built IMO (or they should have like 100 hp so you can kill them very quickly). Or they should be etheral or something, so you can pass through them until they are finished building. I dunno. Regardless, this doesn't have to do with my argument =\
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->If plugging those holes squeezes the life out of the clan community (which, frankly, I don't see), then, well, it's for the good of the game. Sorry.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You listed 3 things that really didn't have much to do with my point.... so I don't see where you're going with this =\
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Mp_blockscripts... eh, I don't really care, on or off. I used scripts back in TFC and that's it. Yes, I know what they do and I've heard how I'm handicapping myself by not using them, etc, but I play NS for fun, not to play optimally at every second. If a server admin wants to attract more like-minded people, that's their perogative, and will foster a community that enjoys playing with scripts off. Again, most people don't use scripts, certainly not new players who we're worried about scaring off.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Like I said in the original post... blockscripts isn't the point.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The irony of all this, of course, is that at least one of the servers you're talking about is strictly vanilla NS to the point of having the normal mapcycle, except for an admin mod (strictly for admining and res slotting) and a couple anti-lame rules.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Which one? Lunix? Like I said I haven't played there in a long time... it isn't showing up in my Find Servers thing for some reason... Shrug. Regardless, I don't see how this is ironic. So I'm wrong about 1 server? So what? How does that destroy my point?
I'm commenting on the attitude I have run into myself since almost the beginning of my NS "career". Whatever you want to think your post is about, or what "needs" to happen, many people walk around with the assumption that competitive play is the Holy Grail of Natural Selection, and not converting to this playstyle makes you a lesser being. It is simply a preference in a playstyle, and I have this nagging feeling that people have some inner desire to make sure that the beliefs, rules, and playstyles of leagues they set up become the standard of the mod.
Many people would call others ignorant simply because, while they do review your arguments and viewpoints, they end up not agreeing with them. I've seen a lot of this myself, and I would be lying if I said that the majority of it has not come from my own brushes with the competitive community. Please realise that asserting opinions on how great something is doesn't count as fact, and people disagreeing with these opinions aren't morons (This is more a plea to people in general than to you, Nadagast). I'm in no way trying to justify not looking at the "facts", but simply that not agreeing with them does not make one ignorant.
As for your bit on these servers, I do wonder if you know what you are talking about. I've had an extensive relationship with the Lunixmonster community and it's members before the community itself was even formed, and I haven't found what you are saying to be true. It seems more like you have either been getting your information about that community from a biased source (Banned person, etc), or just decided to stick it in your list because Forlorn mentioned it. Either way, you've admitted yourself you haven't played there in a long time, yet you will freely include it in a list of "ignorant" communities.
I could be missing your point here, but I'm not all that sure what it is. Please forgive me for misreading your post, at the least.
<!--QuoteBegin-Ness-Earthbound+Nov 7 2004, 09:28 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Ness-Earthbound @ Nov 7 2004, 09:28 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I'm commenting on the attitude I have run into myself since almost the beginning of my NS "career". Whatever you want to think your post is about, or what "needs" to happen, many people walk around with the assumption that competitive play is the Holy Grail of Natural Selection, and not converting to this playstyle makes you a lesser being. It is simply a preference in a playstyle, and I have this nagging feeling that people have some inner desire to make sure that the beliefs, rules, and playstyles of leagues they set up become the standard of the mod. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Okay see, you're stereotyping me just because I'm a clanner. I never said ANYTHING about clanners being better than pubbers or that people need to use the optimal strategy OMG!~ or anything like that. Your reaction is kinda what I'm talking about.... if you can see my point. Don't be biased against me because I'm a clanner. I fully agree with you that pub/clan is a personal preference.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Many people would call others ignorant simply because, while they do review your arguments and viewpoints, they end up not agreeing with them. I've seen a lot of this myself, and I would be lying if I said that the majority of it has not come from my own brushes with the competitive community. Please realise that asserting opinions on how great something is doesn't count as fact, and people disagreeing with these opinions aren't morons (This is more a plea to people in general than to you, Nadagast). I'm in no way trying to justify not looking at the "facts", but simply that not agreeing with them does not make one ignorant.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
See the G4B2S link I provided... They just dismiss my attempt to have a reasonable discussion. They don't even consider the possibility that they are wrong. It's just pretty much "we're right, you're wrong, and if you don't like it, GTFO." Which doesn't do anyone good. I agree an opinion is not fact, but everyone who's seen the facts about scripting has converted to pro-scripting. So all I ask is to just listen to the facts <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->As for your bit on these servers, I do wonder if you know what you are talking about. I've had an extensive relationship with the Lunixmonster community and it's members before the community itself was even formed, and I haven't found what you are saying to be true. It seems more like you have either been getting your information about that community from a biased source (Banned person, etc), or just decided to stick it in your list because Forlorn mentioned it. Either way, you've admitted yourself you haven't played there in a long time, yet you will freely include it in a list of "ignorant" communities.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yep like I said before maybe I shouldn't have added it... but I remember getting banned there awhile back when I did play on it... so I included it. Forlorn mentioned Lunixmonster...? Where? Regardless, my mistake, don't include it in the list, it doesn't take anything away from the validity of the argument <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I could be missing your point here, but I'm not all that sure what it is. Please forgive me for misreading your post, at the least.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
np... Are you still missing the point even after I quoted you and replied? I don't know if I can make this any clearer... uhm: These communities promote ignorance by not listening to reason or evidence. Just to be clear: It doesn't have to do with "pubbers bad" or "clanners good", it has more to do with the fact that the clan scene is not getting the amount of new players it should be, because of this promoted ignorance....
<!--QuoteBegin-Nadagast+Nov 7 2004, 09:04 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Nadagast @ Nov 7 2004, 09:04 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I'm not saying the players are bad (I don't care), I'm not saying they hate clanners (although some do, and it's part of the problem)... I've said that these pubs are ignorant to the facts surrounding clans, scripts, and good players. Someone asked what I mean by ignorant, I mean that they don't know much, if anything, about them, and they have beliefs about them caused by a sort of urban legend "my friend told me scripts could do x!" thing about them... This is worsened by the fact that they won't listen to the evidence, and refuse to provide any proof for what they believe (see the link to the G4B2S forums).
My post has NOTHING to do with how good a player someone is, or how much more 3l33t clanners are than pubbers (we both play for fun, I don't see why you think otherwise). It's about combatting voluntary ignorance on these 'taboo' subjects.... <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->This is worsened by the fact that they won't listen to the evidence, and refuse to provide any proof for what they believe (see the link to the G4B2S forums).<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Perhaps you should provide some evidence for you own argument then because youve yet to provide any yourself other than saying 'Theres certain servers that don't like clanners because they don't understand the scripts they use'. I don't see what you're trying to argue.
<!--QuoteBegin-OttoDestruct+Nov 7 2004, 09:39 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (OttoDestruct @ Nov 7 2004, 09:39 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Nadagast+Nov 7 2004, 09:04 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Nadagast @ Nov 7 2004, 09:04 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I'm not saying the players are bad (I don't care), I'm not saying they hate clanners (although some do, and it's part of the problem)... I've said that these pubs are ignorant to the facts surrounding clans, scripts, and good players. Someone asked what I mean by ignorant, I mean that they don't know much, if anything, about them, and they have beliefs about them caused by a sort of urban legend "my friend told me scripts could do x!" thing about them... This is worsened by the fact that they won't listen to the evidence, and refuse to provide any proof for what they believe (see the link to the G4B2S forums).
My post has NOTHING to do with how good a player someone is, or how much more 3l33t clanners are than pubbers (we both play for fun, I don't see why you think otherwise). It's about combatting voluntary ignorance on these 'taboo' subjects.... <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->This is worsened by the fact that they won't listen to the evidence, and refuse to provide any proof for what they believe (see the link to the G4B2S forums).<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Perhaps you should provide some evidence for you own argument then because youve yet to provide any yourself other than saying 'Theres certain servers that don't like clanners because they don't understand the scripts they use'. I don't see what you're trying to argue. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> holy crap seriously. ***DISREGARD WHAT I SAID ABOUT THEM HATING CLANNERS... IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE POINT***. Sorry that isn't yelling it just needs to be emphasized.
See the bottom of the post just above yours to see my point in a clear (I hope) sentence or two.
<!--QuoteBegin-Nadagast+Nov 7 2004, 09:41 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Nadagast @ Nov 7 2004, 09:41 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-OttoDestruct+Nov 7 2004, 09:39 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (OttoDestruct @ Nov 7 2004, 09:39 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Nadagast+Nov 7 2004, 09:04 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Nadagast @ Nov 7 2004, 09:04 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I'm not saying the players are bad (I don't care), I'm not saying they hate clanners (although some do, and it's part of the problem)... I've said that these pubs are ignorant to the facts surrounding clans, scripts, and good players. Someone asked what I mean by ignorant, I mean that they don't know much, if anything, about them, and they have beliefs about them caused by a sort of urban legend "my friend told me scripts could do x!" thing about them... This is worsened by the fact that they won't listen to the evidence, and refuse to provide any proof for what they believe (see the link to the G4B2S forums).
My post has NOTHING to do with how good a player someone is, or how much more 3l33t clanners are than pubbers (we both play for fun, I don't see why you think otherwise). It's about combatting voluntary ignorance on these 'taboo' subjects.... <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->This is worsened by the fact that they won't listen to the evidence, and refuse to provide any proof for what they believe (see the link to the G4B2S forums).<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Perhaps you should provide some evidence for you own argument then because youve yet to provide any yourself other than saying 'Theres certain servers that don't like clanners because they don't understand the scripts they use'. I don't see what you're trying to argue. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> holy crap seriously. ***DISREGARD WHAT I SAID ABOUT THEM HATING CLANNERS... IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE POINT***. Sorry that isn't yelling it just needs to be emphasized.
See the bottom of the post just above yours to see my point in a clear (I hope) sentence or two. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> And you have yet to answer me. What ignorance? You keep on saying "OMG THEYRE PROMOTING IGNORANCE" yet you have yet to say what that ignorance is.
<!--QuoteBegin-OttoDestruct+Nov 7 2004, 09:43 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (OttoDestruct @ Nov 7 2004, 09:43 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Nadagast+Nov 7 2004, 09:41 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Nadagast @ Nov 7 2004, 09:41 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-OttoDestruct+Nov 7 2004, 09:39 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (OttoDestruct @ Nov 7 2004, 09:39 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Nadagast+Nov 7 2004, 09:04 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Nadagast @ Nov 7 2004, 09:04 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I'm not saying the players are bad (I don't care), I'm not saying they hate clanners (although some do, and it's part of the problem)... I've said that these pubs are ignorant to the facts surrounding clans, scripts, and good players. Someone asked what I mean by ignorant, I mean that they don't know much, if anything, about them, and they have beliefs about them caused by a sort of urban legend "my friend told me scripts could do x!" thing about them... This is worsened by the fact that they won't listen to the evidence, and refuse to provide any proof for what they believe (see the link to the G4B2S forums).
My post has NOTHING to do with how good a player someone is, or how much more 3l33t clanners are than pubbers (we both play for fun, I don't see why you think otherwise). It's about combatting voluntary ignorance on these 'taboo' subjects.... <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->This is worsened by the fact that they won't listen to the evidence, and refuse to provide any proof for what they believe (see the link to the G4B2S forums).<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Perhaps you should provide some evidence for you own argument then because youve yet to provide any yourself other than saying 'Theres certain servers that don't like clanners because they don't understand the scripts they use'. I don't see what you're trying to argue. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> holy crap seriously. ***DISREGARD WHAT I SAID ABOUT THEM HATING CLANNERS... IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE POINT***. Sorry that isn't yelling it just needs to be emphasized.
See the bottom of the post just above yours to see my point in a clear (I hope) sentence or two. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> And you have yet to answer me. What ignorance? You keep on saying "OMG THEYRE PROMOTING IGNORANCE" yet you have yet to say what that ignorance is. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> <a href='http://guns4back2school.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=7043' target='_blank'>http://guns4back2school.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=7043</a>
Like I said before, it's the closed-mindedness and the complete void of reasonable thought that I have a problem with...
<!--QuoteBegin-Nadagast+Nov 7 2004, 09:44 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Nadagast @ Nov 7 2004, 09:44 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-OttoDestruct+Nov 7 2004, 09:43 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (OttoDestruct @ Nov 7 2004, 09:43 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Nadagast+Nov 7 2004, 09:41 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Nadagast @ Nov 7 2004, 09:41 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-OttoDestruct+Nov 7 2004, 09:39 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (OttoDestruct @ Nov 7 2004, 09:39 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Nadagast+Nov 7 2004, 09:04 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Nadagast @ Nov 7 2004, 09:04 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I'm not saying the players are bad (I don't care), I'm not saying they hate clanners (although some do, and it's part of the problem)... I've said that these pubs are ignorant to the facts surrounding clans, scripts, and good players. Someone asked what I mean by ignorant, I mean that they don't know much, if anything, about them, and they have beliefs about them caused by a sort of urban legend "my friend told me scripts could do x!" thing about them... This is worsened by the fact that they won't listen to the evidence, and refuse to provide any proof for what they believe (see the link to the G4B2S forums).
My post has NOTHING to do with how good a player someone is, or how much more 3l33t clanners are than pubbers (we both play for fun, I don't see why you think otherwise). It's about combatting voluntary ignorance on these 'taboo' subjects.... <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->This is worsened by the fact that they won't listen to the evidence, and refuse to provide any proof for what they believe (see the link to the G4B2S forums).<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Perhaps you should provide some evidence for you own argument then because youve yet to provide any yourself other than saying 'Theres certain servers that don't like clanners because they don't understand the scripts they use'. I don't see what you're trying to argue. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> holy crap seriously. ***DISREGARD WHAT I SAID ABOUT THEM HATING CLANNERS... IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE POINT***. Sorry that isn't yelling it just needs to be emphasized.
See the bottom of the post just above yours to see my point in a clear (I hope) sentence or two. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> And you have yet to answer me. What ignorance? You keep on saying "OMG THEYRE PROMOTING IGNORANCE" yet you have yet to say what that ignorance is. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> <a href='http://guns4back2school.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=7043' target='_blank'>http://guns4back2school.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=7043</a>
Like I said before, it's the closed-mindedness and the complete void of reasonable thought that I have a problem with... <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> So youre saying that pub servers are promoting ignorance because one of your threads on ONE server got locked? ......
<!--QuoteBegin-OttoDestruct+Nov 7 2004, 08:45 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (OttoDestruct @ Nov 7 2004, 08:45 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> So youre saying that pub servers are promoting ignorance because one of your threads on ONE server got locked? ...... <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> No, it's because that is an <i>example</i> of the attitudes and ideas servers are promoting.
The link to the G4B2S forums proves nothing. It merely proves that the admin staff are tired of your complaints, and feel no reason to justify their rules. Especially considering that no matter what anyone else will say to you, you still feel that these are wrong and going to complain about them. Now, considering the fact that you will not agree to the majority of the points being made, why should they tell you anything?
<!--QuoteBegin-Nadagast+Nov 7 2004, 09:49 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Nadagast @ Nov 7 2004, 09:49 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Every pub is like that. You trivializing them locking my post doesn't add to your argument...
It's not that they locked a post, it's that they refuse to consider the possibility of being wrong. Get it? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> So youre saying that every pub doesnt want you scripting? And what was all that rant about stereotyping?
<!--QuoteBegin-StUpId_Fo0L+Nov 7 2004, 09:48 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (StUpId_Fo0L @ Nov 7 2004, 09:48 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> The link to the G4B2S forums proves nothing. It merely proves that the admin staff are tired of your complaints, and feel no reason to justify their rules. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I've made 2 posts on that forum, both about blockscripts, both with me being civil, and both of them were locked. They get 'tired of my complaints' on the first post I make?
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Especially considering that no matter what anyone else will say to you, you still feel that these are wrong and going to complain about them. Now, considering the fact that you will not agree to the majority of the points being made, why should they tell you anything?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Nope, I have no problem changing my mind. For example, I've gone from Christian to Atheist, and Republican to moderate/liberal. I know that these don't really have to do with the game but I hope they show that I'm pretty open-minded...
<!--QuoteBegin-Nadagast+Nov 7 2004, 08:49 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Nadagast @ Nov 7 2004, 08:49 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Every pub is like that. You trivializing them locking my post doesn't add to your argument...
It's not that they locked a post, it's that they refuse to consider the possibility of being wrong. Get it? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I beg to differ. I have considered the possibility of being wrong many times before, then I realize that <b>BOTH</b> sides tend to make good arguments. Then comes the issue of what are the rules of the server, could this in any way be classified as breaking them slightly, and what do the server regulars think about this. I also admin on a pub server. It could be possible that they do not wish to publicize if they ever possibly think themselves wrong to be able to enforce their rules with "set in stone" ease.
<!--QuoteBegin-Nadagast+Nov 7 2004, 08:52 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Nadagast @ Nov 7 2004, 08:52 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-StUpId_Fo0L+Nov 7 2004, 09:48 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (StUpId_Fo0L @ Nov 7 2004, 09:48 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> The link to the G4B2S forums proves nothing. It merely proves that the admin staff are tired of your complaints, and feel no reason to justify their rules. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I've made 2 posts on that forum, both about blockscripts, both with me being civil, and both of them were locked. They get 'tired of my complaints' on the first post I make? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Tired of your complaints meaning tired of "OMG UR RULES SUX CHANGE THEM PLEASE" in more civil wording, no matter what one person will not change a rule unless they happen to own the server. I mean hell, no matter how many times someone will ask me if I ever think that F4ing will be OK my answer will always be "no, with exceptions." and I won't really feel the need to explain myself.
<!--QuoteBegin-OttoDestruct+Nov 7 2004, 09:50 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (OttoDestruct @ Nov 7 2004, 09:50 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Nadagast+Nov 7 2004, 09:49 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Nadagast @ Nov 7 2004, 09:49 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Every pub is like that. You trivializing them locking my post doesn't add to your argument...
It's not that they locked a post, it's that they refuse to consider the possibility of being wrong. Get it? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> So youre saying that every pub doesnt want you scripting? And what was all that rant about stereotyping? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> OK, you got me! I didn't mean 'every pub' I meant 'some pubs'. SORRY. ::ROLLEYES::
Please stop ignoring the point <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
The rant about stereotyping? It's true, and I thought it furthered the point. If you don't think it does, just ignore it.
Look, I'm not a good debater or writer. I think the best way for you to be convinced of my arguments (although not the easiest) is to see it from my side of the fence. Become a clanner or get educated about scripts and I guarantee you will agree with me 100%. There's plenty of examples of this...
TheAdjHe demanded a cool forum title of some type.Join Date: 2004-05-03Member: 28436Members, NS1 Playtester, Constellation
Ignorance n. - The condition of being uneducated, unaware, or uninformed.
Disagreeing with someone is not ignorance. Disagreeing with someone because you have 0 knowledge on the topic being argued, and refuse to inform yourself about what's being argued IS ignorance. Having an opinion which is backed up by no facts and a lack of information is an ignorant opinion. That's what Nadagast is talking about. Blockscripts are commonly linked to ignorant communites that in general have little to no knowledge of scripts. This distinct lack of knowledge leads to a very negative attitude on people who DO possess this knowledge, and attempt to educate people on it. I've literally been banned from servers for explaining what scripts do to people, because some people truly believe that scripts are cheating. Ignorance breeds contempt, and that's what happening in the NS community.
Imagine if you had the best of intentions regarding a topic, and other people not only did not understand why you did the things you did (with the intention of improving said topic), yet argued with you that what you were doing was not only wrong, but hurting the community. What do you do against such things? You simply try to state your intentions in a medium that everyone can understand. Most competitive players see it like this: Pubs are a place for people to learn about and enjoy the game, and competitive play is a place for people who excel at the game to go to. Many people never learn about the competitive side of the scene because of the extreme negative attitude certain server communities have against competitive players. Certain competitive players make arrogant assumptions about the public server scene. When these two attitudes clash we have back and forth arguments like we see in this very thread.
What Nadagast is trying to get is certain specific server communities that have very negative attitudes towards competitive players and what they represent to listen to the facts and understand what competitive players are trying to say. Saying "ogm clanners are evil scripters and we refuse to listen to what they say becuase scripts are exploits and aren't supposed to be used because I didn't know they were included in the hl engine and evil clan players use them and ruin by game because they can kill 40 skulks and that must be hacks or scripts" doesn't make clan players arrogant for calling that attitude ignorant. Arrogance is an overbearing self-pride of over-exhalted self-importance. I believe the lack of belief and ignoring of the competitive community makes clan players assert themselves more often, and results in the average player feeling clan players are overbearing. If instead of saying "clan players are arrogant because they say what they think" people listened to what some competitive players said, we would have much better communication and less retarded, worthless arguing that accomplishes nothing. We listen to what you say, now listen to what we say, and argue on facts and educated points of view, not worthless opinions based on lies and mis-information. Inform yourself about the game and how it works, and the things related to it, then use that information and argue from that. Informed people make informed decisions.
I didn't mention you at all Nadagast. I'm talking about an attitude, one that I've run into often in competitive players. I did not say that all competitive players have this attitude, and I did not say that you have this attitude. I am not stereotyping at all, in fact.
I'm not going to take a thread from one G4B2S discussion and apply it to multiple communities or a group of people, so I can't really take that as evidence that there is a huge problem with the "pubber" community and ignorance.
I've seen the facts about scripting, yet I choose not to go "pro-script" or script myself. Does this make me ignorant? Does the fact that my own personal gaming preferences and playstyle conflicts with your own make me a stupid, uninformed zombie?
My own theory on the clan scene doing so terribly in NS is that while other mods require competitive play to get a feeling of teamwork and accomplishment with fellow players (This is what I have found and heard throughout my years of HL gaming), Natural Selection did a very good job of incorporating this into "normal" games. There's no real drive to go to the competitive scene when one can already find teamwork in a normal game of NS, unless they wish to be in the spotlight or be recognized within certain circles as being a good player.
The generally sour attitudes that the competitive community is known for (and many will readily admit that it exists and is an issue) really kills off any interest in joining such a community. There isn't much incentive for clanning beyond fame and all of that business, when many people are getting the teamwork and comraderie they require out of normal matches. I've found this feeling on the majority of the servers I have played on over these past two years, so I really can't accept any "Pubs are dumb and have no teamwork" generalizations used to explain why people clan.
I guess your best bet would be to find an actual reason for people to play competitively. Pubs having no teamwork and all of that obviously isn't working (Probably, once again, because <b>many</b> do), and stating that competitive play is better isn't working (People want to know why), so try and think of a good honeypot. My own stereotype of sour attitudes among clanners comes from my own experiences and those of others I've talked to, so I apologise if you've experienced differently (Or maybe I'm just ignorant). Saying that, somehow have people act nicer.
<!--QuoteBegin-StUpId_Fo0L+Nov 7 2004, 09:56 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (StUpId_Fo0L @ Nov 7 2004, 09:56 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Tired of your complaints meaning tired of "OMG UR RULES SUX CHANGE THEM PLEASE" in more civil wording, no matter what one person will not change a rule unless they happen to own the server. I mean hell, no matter how many times someone will ask me if I ever think that F4ing will be OK my answer will always be "no, with exceptions." and I won't really feel the need to explain myself. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> .... Yes I guess disagreeing with the rules is sort of like "OMG UR RULES SUX CHANGE THEM PLEASE." I guess inviting a reasonable discussion on things is not acceptable? Sorry I don't follow. If your position is right, you should have no problem defending it in a discussion with me right? Nope? Just censor me!
This thread has managed to completely derail itself off of the original point and I'm not surprised tbh. K read Adj's post for the re-hijack back to the original point.
<!--QuoteBegin-Nadagast+Nov 7 2004, 09:59 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Nadagast @ Nov 7 2004, 09:59 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-StUpId_Fo0L+Nov 7 2004, 09:56 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (StUpId_Fo0L @ Nov 7 2004, 09:56 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Tired of your complaints meaning tired of "OMG UR RULES SUX CHANGE THEM PLEASE" in more civil wording, no matter what one person will not change a rule unless they happen to own the server. I mean hell, no matter how many times someone will ask me if I ever think that F4ing will be OK my answer will always be "no, with exceptions." and I won't really feel the need to explain myself. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> .... Yes I guess disagreeing with the rules is sort of like "OMG UR RULES SUX CHANGE THEM PLEASE." I guess inviting a reasonable discussion on things is not acceptable? Sorry I don't follow. If your position is right, you should have no problem defending it in a discussion with me right? Nope? Just censor me! <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Perhaps they just don't feel like justifying themself to every single person that comes along and decides that they're wrong.
Comments
You see, there are many players who in a years time of playing this game have made about a 0% improvement. Those who improve in pubs search themselves for something more challanging when they are ready. Obviously those who play in servers like voogru's neither want to improve nor be raped by you. Their not really closed minded the way you think, they just dont want to admit to you their inability to learn the game. The end. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
while this can be true, another way of looking at it is:
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The answer your seeking for is simple. Many players just want to have fun.
You see, there are many players who in a years time of playing this game have made about a 0% improvement. Those who improve in pubs search themselves for something more challanging when they are ready. Obviously those who play in servers like voogru's just want to have fun. Their not really closed minded the way you think, they are just trying to have fun, and feel that allowing scripts detracts from the fun factor.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
[opinion]
while this may not be 100% accurate, i personally feel that it is more accuate than alpha's post
[/opinion] <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
View of the clanner vs pubber. Their both correct.
Out of the other 90%, how many do you think know what CAL is, have watched a CAL match, or care about the outcome of CAL, let alone some random clan match? I think very few. As the ever-compelling anecdotal evidence, I've played online games since, essentially, the beginning of online games, and neither myself nor any of my friends have been in a clan or care what happens in clan matches in any game.
To the average NS player, the bread and butter of the populace that plays NS and will pay for it if it's commercially released, clans are just something you hear about in the distance once in a while. Players come for the unique gameplay and the high-tech marines vs. aliens theme. They stay because they're enjoying the game and have found a group of people who share their enjoyment.
I will tell you some of the most frustrating things in NS that would deter potential community members. The first is being spawncamped, either as marines or aliens. Whether you put yourself in the position or not, sitting in the spawn queue to achieve a brief second of life before being devoured or SGed is not a fun time.
The second is playing on a server where if you're not skilled, or if you deviate from optimal strategy and try to play for fun once in a while, your teammates are going to start mocking you and/or yelling at you.
The third is being killed by lame tactics like structure blocking, or being griefed by a teammate on a continual basis (for instance, an onos blocking a doorway -- I've seen it happen several times before).
If plugging those holes squeezes the life out of the clan community (which, frankly, I don't see), then, well, it's for the good of the game. Sorry.
Mp_blockscripts... eh, I don't really care, on or off. I used scripts back in TFC and that's it. Yes, I know what they do and I've heard how I'm handicapping myself by not using them, etc, but I play NS for fun, not to play optimally at every second. If a server admin wants to attract more like-minded people, that's their perogative, and will foster a community that enjoys playing with scripts off. Again, most people don't use scripts, certainly not new players who we're worried about scaring off.
The irony of all this, of course, is that at least one of the servers you're talking about is strictly vanilla NS to the point of having the normal mapcycle, except for an admin mod (strictly for admining and res slotting) and a couple anti-lame rules.
Now, the real reason no one names names is because then it will become a flame war. If everyone went and made a list of every clanner/vet that they have had a horrible time ingame with, then you would get them coming back with why they were so horrible and that the specific players whom are making such accusations suck.
I also don't see what you have against mp_blockscripts, I mean the only thing I have against it is the fact that I can't type +use in console. Hell, everyone has said so themselves, they can play fine without scripts it is mainly for convenience. I can't type +use in console, you don't see me parading around everywhere spamming how ignorant everyone is for enforcing such a thing.
Spawncamping is fun, especially since if you can spawncamp you can take down that hive. I am not very skilled and I have taken down the hive with ONE other person before, whom was quite skilled himself. That was about one minute into game, didn't really have any upgrades at all yet the skulks couldn't fly out of the way as they spawned in at one of the hives of ns_altair allowing me to LMG the hive down. You don't need to F4 if the game is half a minute away, you also don't need to recycle unless you have some onos devouring every marine who spawns. I mean hell, if the round is so horrible that you WILL lose, why not just wait that short amount of time? I mean, if you aren't attacked, you can push back. If the other team just walls you in with turrets, have every single person rush it in a group.
I don't hate all clanners/vets, although I do hate the majority of clanners/vets who have been banned off lunixmonster excluding about four or five of them whom I am quite fond of.
Oh, I don't think you can win this battle, nadagast, especially since you are "ignorant" in your ways also. I mean hell, neither side will admit they are wrong in any way, what's the point?
Bunnhop - I have my n52 set to send the jump command repeatedly. It still hasn't helped me bunnyhop perfectly. I'm still practicing bunnyhoping and have been doing so for several weeks.
Pistol script - I can fire my pistol just as fast and accurately without scripting than I can with my n52. Oh wow. It's called practice. It just causes less wear & tear on my mx510.
Wigglewalk - like the pistol script, I can wigglewalk just as fast with as without. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
My post has NOTHING to do with how good a player someone is, or how much more 3l33t clanners are than pubbers (we both play for fun, I don't see why you think otherwise). It's about combatting voluntary ignorance on these 'taboo' subjects....
you're really misreading my post. I knew this would happen, and it's worse cuz I'm not a good writer.
I'm not saying a way of playing the game is better/worse. I like pubs just as much as any other guy...
I'm saying that if someone refuses to look at evidence/proof/facts for or against something they are voluntarily being ignorant to the topic. Get me? Surely you're not justifying sitting there and saying "I'm right, and you're wrong, and I'm not going to look at anything you say, because I'm right." Cuz that's what these servers are doing, and that's what I'm talking about.
if you dont have fun playing the game, why do you to play the game in the first place?
if you HAVE to win to have fun, why did you not stop playing NS when you first started it? (im assuming you started as a noob)
Provided both teams play nice, that it is a roughly fair match and everyone is a good sport, a game of NS is always fun - win, loose or draw. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Out of the other 90%, how many do you think know what CAL is, have watched a CAL match, or care about the outcome of CAL, let alone some random clan match? I think very few. As the ever-compelling anecdotal evidence, I've played online games since, essentially, the beginning of online games, and neither myself nor any of my friends have been in a clan or care what happens in clan matches in any game. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ok. Why do you think that is? NS has roughly double the amount of pubbers than TFC does at any given time, yet it has about half (or less) the number of clans. Why? I think it's because on many pub community servers, they are made to be evil, and the pub is said to be the height of teamwork (those darn evil no-teamwork-using clanners)! Again, I'm not saying every pub is like this, there are some on each side of the fence (and I commend NSA for being good to clanners and educated about scripts).
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->To the average NS player, the bread and butter of the populace that plays NS and will pay for it if it's commercially released, clans are just something you hear about in the distance once in a while. Players come for the unique gameplay and the high-tech marines vs. aliens theme. They stay because they're enjoying the game and have found a group of people who share their enjoyment.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Right and how is a clan any different from these groups of people? Clanning isn't for everyone, but that doesn't mean clanners should be viewed as evil/haxorz/scripterz. I distinctly remember going into [FAT] clan's IRC channel (it was a pub server) and saying that I was in a CAL clan or something. The admins (who had just banned me) replied that everyone in CAL is an evil scripter, then I got banned from the IRC channel <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/sad-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I will tell you some of the most frustrating things in NS that would deter potential community members. The first is being spawncamped, either as marines or aliens. Whether you put yourself in the position or not, sitting in the spawn queue to achieve a brief second of life before being devoured or SGed is not a fun time.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Spawncamping is a problem I agree, but that's because of the design of NS. If the objective you have to kill is also where the enemies spawn, that's bad. It's the alien's job to prevent getting spawn camped.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The second is playing on a server where if you're not skilled, or if you deviate from optimal strategy and try to play for fun once in a while, your teammates are going to start mocking you and/or yelling at you.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Right. I have no problem with going for the occasional hand grenade rush. However, the strats these pubs use actually make the game boring. Turret farm locking down both hives is BORING. Anyway, this wasn't the point of the post at all, so if you disagree, just drop it. It isn't relevant to the point...
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The third is being killed by lame tactics like structure blocking, or being griefed by a teammate on a continual basis (for instance, an onos blocking a doorway -- I've seen it happen several times before).<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree with you, buildings shouldn't block until they are built IMO (or they should have like 100 hp so you can kill them very quickly). Or they should be etheral or something, so you can pass through them until they are finished building. I dunno. Regardless, this doesn't have to do with my argument =\
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->If plugging those holes squeezes the life out of the clan community (which, frankly, I don't see), then, well, it's for the good of the game. Sorry.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You listed 3 things that really didn't have much to do with my point.... so I don't see where you're going with this =\
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Mp_blockscripts... eh, I don't really care, on or off. I used scripts back in TFC and that's it. Yes, I know what they do and I've heard how I'm handicapping myself by not using them, etc, but I play NS for fun, not to play optimally at every second. If a server admin wants to attract more like-minded people, that's their perogative, and will foster a community that enjoys playing with scripts off. Again, most people don't use scripts, certainly not new players who we're worried about scaring off.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Like I said in the original post... blockscripts isn't the point.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The irony of all this, of course, is that at least one of the servers you're talking about is strictly vanilla NS to the point of having the normal mapcycle, except for an admin mod (strictly for admining and res slotting) and a couple anti-lame rules.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Which one? Lunix? Like I said I haven't played there in a long time... it isn't showing up in my Find Servers thing for some reason... Shrug. Regardless, I don't see how this is ironic. So I'm wrong about 1 server? So what? How does that destroy my point?
Many people would call others ignorant simply because, while they do review your arguments and viewpoints, they end up not agreeing with them. I've seen a lot of this myself, and I would be lying if I said that the majority of it has not come from my own brushes with the competitive community. Please realise that asserting opinions on how great something is doesn't count as fact, and people disagreeing with these opinions aren't morons (This is more a plea to people in general than to you, Nadagast). I'm in no way trying to justify not looking at the "facts", but simply that not agreeing with them does not make one ignorant.
As for your bit on these servers, I do wonder if you know what you are talking about. I've had an extensive relationship with the Lunixmonster community and it's members before the community itself was even formed, and I haven't found what you are saying to be true. It seems more like you have either been getting your information about that community from a biased source (Banned person, etc), or just decided to stick it in your list because Forlorn mentioned it. Either way, you've admitted yourself you haven't played there in a long time, yet you will freely include it in a list of "ignorant" communities.
I could be missing your point here, but I'm not all that sure what it is. Please forgive me for misreading your post, at the least.
Okay see, you're stereotyping me just because I'm a clanner. I never said ANYTHING about clanners being better than pubbers or that people need to use the optimal strategy OMG!~ or anything like that. Your reaction is kinda what I'm talking about.... if you can see my point. Don't be biased against me because I'm a clanner. I fully agree with you that pub/clan is a personal preference.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Many people would call others ignorant simply because, while they do review your arguments and viewpoints, they end up not agreeing with them. I've seen a lot of this myself, and I would be lying if I said that the majority of it has not come from my own brushes with the competitive community. Please realise that asserting opinions on how great something is doesn't count as fact, and people disagreeing with these opinions aren't morons (This is more a plea to people in general than to you, Nadagast). I'm in no way trying to justify not looking at the "facts", but simply that not agreeing with them does not make one ignorant.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
See the G4B2S link I provided... They just dismiss my attempt to have a reasonable discussion. They don't even consider the possibility that they are wrong. It's just pretty much "we're right, you're wrong, and if you don't like it, GTFO." Which doesn't do anyone good. I agree an opinion is not fact, but everyone who's seen the facts about scripting has converted to pro-scripting. So all I ask is to just listen to the facts <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->As for your bit on these servers, I do wonder if you know what you are talking about. I've had an extensive relationship with the Lunixmonster community and it's members before the community itself was even formed, and I haven't found what you are saying to be true. It seems more like you have either been getting your information about that community from a biased source (Banned person, etc), or just decided to stick it in your list because Forlorn mentioned it. Either way, you've admitted yourself you haven't played there in a long time, yet you will freely include it in a list of "ignorant" communities.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yep like I said before maybe I shouldn't have added it... but I remember getting banned there awhile back when I did play on it... so I included it. Forlorn mentioned Lunixmonster...? Where? Regardless, my mistake, don't include it in the list, it doesn't take anything away from the validity of the argument <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I could be missing your point here, but I'm not all that sure what it is. Please forgive me for misreading your post, at the least.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
np... Are you still missing the point even after I quoted you and replied? I don't know if I can make this any clearer... uhm:
These communities promote ignorance by not listening to reason or evidence. Just to be clear: It doesn't have to do with "pubbers bad" or "clanners good", it has more to do with the fact that the clan scene is not getting the amount of new players it should be, because of this promoted ignorance....
My post has NOTHING to do with how good a player someone is, or how much more 3l33t clanners are than pubbers (we both play for fun, I don't see why you think otherwise). It's about combatting voluntary ignorance on these 'taboo' subjects.... <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->This is worsened by the fact that they won't listen to the evidence, and refuse to provide any proof for what they believe (see the link to the G4B2S forums).<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Perhaps you should provide some evidence for you own argument then because youve yet to provide any yourself other than saying 'Theres certain servers that don't like clanners because they don't understand the scripts they use'. I don't see what you're trying to argue.
My post has NOTHING to do with how good a player someone is, or how much more 3l33t clanners are than pubbers (we both play for fun, I don't see why you think otherwise). It's about combatting voluntary ignorance on these 'taboo' subjects.... <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->This is worsened by the fact that they won't listen to the evidence, and refuse to provide any proof for what they believe (see the link to the G4B2S forums).<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Perhaps you should provide some evidence for you own argument then because youve yet to provide any yourself other than saying 'Theres certain servers that don't like clanners because they don't understand the scripts they use'. I don't see what you're trying to argue. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
holy crap seriously. ***DISREGARD WHAT I SAID ABOUT THEM HATING CLANNERS... IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE POINT***. Sorry that isn't yelling it just needs to be emphasized.
See the bottom of the post just above yours to see my point in a clear (I hope) sentence or two.
My post has NOTHING to do with how good a player someone is, or how much more 3l33t clanners are than pubbers (we both play for fun, I don't see why you think otherwise). It's about combatting voluntary ignorance on these 'taboo' subjects.... <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->This is worsened by the fact that they won't listen to the evidence, and refuse to provide any proof for what they believe (see the link to the G4B2S forums).<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Perhaps you should provide some evidence for you own argument then because youve yet to provide any yourself other than saying 'Theres certain servers that don't like clanners because they don't understand the scripts they use'. I don't see what you're trying to argue. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
holy crap seriously. ***DISREGARD WHAT I SAID ABOUT THEM HATING CLANNERS... IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE POINT***. Sorry that isn't yelling it just needs to be emphasized.
See the bottom of the post just above yours to see my point in a clear (I hope) sentence or two. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
And you have yet to answer me. What ignorance? You keep on saying "OMG THEYRE PROMOTING IGNORANCE" yet you have yet to say what that ignorance is.
My post has NOTHING to do with how good a player someone is, or how much more 3l33t clanners are than pubbers (we both play for fun, I don't see why you think otherwise). It's about combatting voluntary ignorance on these 'taboo' subjects.... <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->This is worsened by the fact that they won't listen to the evidence, and refuse to provide any proof for what they believe (see the link to the G4B2S forums).<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Perhaps you should provide some evidence for you own argument then because youve yet to provide any yourself other than saying 'Theres certain servers that don't like clanners because they don't understand the scripts they use'. I don't see what you're trying to argue. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
holy crap seriously. ***DISREGARD WHAT I SAID ABOUT THEM HATING CLANNERS... IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE POINT***. Sorry that isn't yelling it just needs to be emphasized.
See the bottom of the post just above yours to see my point in a clear (I hope) sentence or two. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And you have yet to answer me. What ignorance? You keep on saying "OMG THEYRE PROMOTING IGNORANCE" yet you have yet to say what that ignorance is. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<a href='http://guns4back2school.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=7043' target='_blank'>http://guns4back2school.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=7043</a>
Like I said before, it's the closed-mindedness and the complete void of reasonable thought that I have a problem with...
My post has NOTHING to do with how good a player someone is, or how much more 3l33t clanners are than pubbers (we both play for fun, I don't see why you think otherwise). It's about combatting voluntary ignorance on these 'taboo' subjects.... <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->This is worsened by the fact that they won't listen to the evidence, and refuse to provide any proof for what they believe (see the link to the G4B2S forums).<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Perhaps you should provide some evidence for you own argument then because youve yet to provide any yourself other than saying 'Theres certain servers that don't like clanners because they don't understand the scripts they use'. I don't see what you're trying to argue. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
holy crap seriously. ***DISREGARD WHAT I SAID ABOUT THEM HATING CLANNERS... IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE POINT***. Sorry that isn't yelling it just needs to be emphasized.
See the bottom of the post just above yours to see my point in a clear (I hope) sentence or two. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And you have yet to answer me. What ignorance? You keep on saying "OMG THEYRE PROMOTING IGNORANCE" yet you have yet to say what that ignorance is. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<a href='http://guns4back2school.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=7043' target='_blank'>http://guns4back2school.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=7043</a>
Like I said before, it's the closed-mindedness and the complete void of reasonable thought that I have a problem with... <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
So youre saying that pub servers are promoting ignorance because one of your threads on ONE server got locked? ......
No, it's because that is an <i>example</i> of the attitudes and ideas servers are promoting.
It's not that they locked a post, it's that they refuse to consider the possibility of being wrong. Get it?
It's not that they locked a post, it's that they refuse to consider the possibility of being wrong. Get it? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
So youre saying that every pub doesnt want you scripting? And what was all that rant about stereotyping?
I've made 2 posts on that forum, both about blockscripts, both with me being civil, and both of them were locked. They get 'tired of my complaints' on the first post I make?
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Especially considering that no matter what anyone else will say to you, you still feel that these are wrong and going to complain about them. Now, considering the fact that you will not agree to the majority of the points being made, why should they tell you anything?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Nope, I have no problem changing my mind. For example, I've gone from Christian to Atheist, and Republican to moderate/liberal. I know that these don't really have to do with the game but I hope they show that I'm pretty open-minded...
It's not that they locked a post, it's that they refuse to consider the possibility of being wrong. Get it? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I beg to differ. I have considered the possibility of being wrong many times before, then I realize that <b>BOTH</b> sides tend to make good arguments. Then comes the issue of what are the rules of the server, could this in any way be classified as breaking them slightly, and what do the server regulars think about this. I also admin on a pub server. It could be possible that they do not wish to publicize if they ever possibly think themselves wrong to be able to enforce their rules with "set in stone" ease.
I've made 2 posts on that forum, both about blockscripts, both with me being civil, and both of them were locked. They get 'tired of my complaints' on the first post I make?
<!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Tired of your complaints meaning tired of "OMG UR RULES SUX CHANGE THEM PLEASE" in more civil wording, no matter what one person will not change a rule unless they happen to own the server. I mean hell, no matter how many times someone will ask me if I ever think that F4ing will be OK my answer will always be "no, with exceptions." and I won't really feel the need to explain myself.
It's not that they locked a post, it's that they refuse to consider the possibility of being wrong. Get it? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So youre saying that every pub doesnt want you scripting? And what was all that rant about stereotyping? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
OK, you got me! I didn't mean 'every pub' I meant 'some pubs'. SORRY. ::ROLLEYES::
Please stop ignoring the point <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
The rant about stereotyping? It's true, and I thought it furthered the point. If you don't think it does, just ignore it.
Look, I'm not a good debater or writer. I think the best way for you to be convinced of my arguments (although not the easiest) is to see it from my side of the fence. Become a clanner or get educated about scripts and I guarantee you will agree with me 100%. There's plenty of examples of this...
Disagreeing with someone is not ignorance. Disagreeing with someone because you have 0 knowledge on the topic being argued, and refuse to inform yourself about what's being argued IS ignorance. Having an opinion which is backed up by no facts and a lack of information is an ignorant opinion. That's what Nadagast is talking about. Blockscripts are commonly linked to ignorant communites that in general have little to no knowledge of scripts. This distinct lack of knowledge leads to a very negative attitude on people who DO possess this knowledge, and attempt to educate people on it. I've literally been banned from servers for explaining what scripts do to people, because some people truly believe that scripts are cheating. Ignorance breeds contempt, and that's what happening in the NS community.
Imagine if you had the best of intentions regarding a topic, and other people not only did not understand why you did the things you did (with the intention of improving said topic), yet argued with you that what you were doing was not only wrong, but hurting the community. What do you do against such things? You simply try to state your intentions in a medium that everyone can understand. Most competitive players see it like this: Pubs are a place for people to learn about and enjoy the game, and competitive play is a place for people who excel at the game to go to. Many people never learn about the competitive side of the scene because of the extreme negative attitude certain server communities have against competitive players. Certain competitive players make arrogant assumptions about the public server scene. When these two attitudes clash we have back and forth arguments like we see in this very thread.
What Nadagast is trying to get is certain specific server communities that have very negative attitudes towards competitive players and what they represent to listen to the facts and understand what competitive players are trying to say. Saying "ogm clanners are evil scripters and we refuse to listen to what they say becuase scripts are exploits and aren't supposed to be used because I didn't know they were included in the hl engine and evil clan players use them and ruin by game because they can kill 40 skulks and that must be hacks or scripts" doesn't make clan players arrogant for calling that attitude ignorant. Arrogance is an overbearing self-pride of over-exhalted self-importance. I believe the lack of belief and ignoring of the competitive community makes clan players assert themselves more often, and results in the average player feeling clan players are overbearing. If instead of saying "clan players are arrogant because they say what they think" people listened to what some competitive players said, we would have much better communication and less retarded, worthless arguing that accomplishes nothing. We listen to what you say, now listen to what we say, and argue on facts and educated points of view, not worthless opinions based on lies and mis-information. Inform yourself about the game and how it works, and the things related to it, then use that information and argue from that. Informed people make informed decisions.
I'm not going to take a thread from one G4B2S discussion and apply it to multiple communities or a group of people, so I can't really take that as evidence that there is a huge problem with the "pubber" community and ignorance.
I've seen the facts about scripting, yet I choose not to go "pro-script" or script myself. Does this make me ignorant? Does the fact that my own personal gaming preferences and playstyle conflicts with your own make me a stupid, uninformed zombie?
My own theory on the clan scene doing so terribly in NS is that while other mods require competitive play to get a feeling of teamwork and accomplishment with fellow players (This is what I have found and heard throughout my years of HL gaming), Natural Selection did a very good job of incorporating this into "normal" games. There's no real drive to go to the competitive scene when one can already find teamwork in a normal game of NS, unless they wish to be in the spotlight or be recognized within certain circles as being a good player.
The generally sour attitudes that the competitive community is known for (and many will readily admit that it exists and is an issue) really kills off any interest in joining such a community. There isn't much incentive for clanning beyond fame and all of that business, when many people are getting the teamwork and comraderie they require out of normal matches. I've found this feeling on the majority of the servers I have played on over these past two years, so I really can't accept any "Pubs are dumb and have no teamwork" generalizations used to explain why people clan.
I guess your best bet would be to find an actual reason for people to play competitively. Pubs having no teamwork and all of that obviously isn't working (Probably, once again, because <b>many</b> do), and stating that competitive play is better isn't working (People want to know why), so try and think of a good honeypot. My own stereotype of sour attitudes among clanners comes from my own experiences and those of others I've talked to, so I apologise if you've experienced differently (Or maybe I'm just ignorant). Saying that, somehow have people act nicer.
.... Yes I guess disagreeing with the rules is sort of like "OMG UR RULES SUX CHANGE THEM PLEASE." I guess inviting a reasonable discussion on things is not acceptable? Sorry I don't follow. If your position is right, you should have no problem defending it in a discussion with me right? Nope? Just censor me!
This thread has managed to completely derail itself off of the original point and I'm not surprised tbh. K read Adj's post for the re-hijack back to the original point.
.... Yes I guess disagreeing with the rules is sort of like "OMG UR RULES SUX CHANGE THEM PLEASE." I guess inviting a reasonable discussion on things is not acceptable? Sorry I don't follow. If your position is right, you should have no problem defending it in a discussion with me right? Nope? Just censor me! <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Perhaps they just don't feel like justifying themself to every single person that comes along and decides that they're wrong.