QuaunautThe longest seven days in history...Join Date: 2003-03-21Member: 14759Members, Constellation, Reinforced - Shadow
<!--QuoteBegin-Nadagast+Nov 8 2004, 02:48 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Nadagast @ Nov 8 2004, 02:48 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I sense a group hug coming on <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Seriously if you have a bad taste in your mouth about clanners (I realize this goes against what I just posted but I'm an idiot like that), get on IRC... join a pug in #nspug <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Group hug indeed. <3
Also, #nspug is a really bad example. Sadly, no one admins those games, so when people go and make racist comments for 20 minutes, call you an idiot, refuse to use teamwork, and the such, it REALLY detracts from the experience I used to get out of #nspug, quite a few months back. It used to be good, but I lack respect for almost all that touch it now.
<!--QuoteBegin-Quaunaut+Nov 8 2004, 04:53 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Quaunaut @ Nov 8 2004, 04:53 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Nadagast+Nov 8 2004, 02:48 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Nadagast @ Nov 8 2004, 02:48 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I sense a group hug coming on <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Seriously if you have a bad taste in your mouth about clanners (I realize this goes against what I just posted but I'm an idiot like that), get on IRC... join a pug in #nspug <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Group hug indeed. <3
Also, #nspug is a really bad example. Sadly, no one admins those games, so when people go and make racist comments for 20 minutes, call you an idiot, refuse to use teamwork, and the such, it REALLY detracts from the experience I used to get out of #nspug, quite a few months back. It used to be good, but I lack respect for almost all that touch it now. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Hmm, I never had the need to find an admin but I thought that they do have admins for the game. All you have to do is request and admin in the channel with .admin, and someone will be there to help you I believe. I've seen people banned for leaving pugs early and screwing a team, stuff like that. Racism is probably against the rules too since it shouldn't be tolerated.
I can hardly stand Pubs any more. Once BS_1 was 'fixed' and 98% of the servers put it on. I almost, for a time totally lost all interest in NS. You had people always saying how lame scripts were, how they Bunnyhop for you, how they shoot your pistol in .001 nanoseconds. Its almost sickning that it came down to this. Once this blockscripts came onto the block my regging on 15 servers went down to 3. Its pathetic this happened, hopefully some day people will open their eyes.
<!--QuoteBegin-Quaunaut+Nov 8 2004, 04:53 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Quaunaut @ Nov 8 2004, 04:53 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Nadagast+Nov 8 2004, 02:48 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Nadagast @ Nov 8 2004, 02:48 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I sense a group hug coming on <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Seriously if you have a bad taste in your mouth about clanners (I realize this goes against what I just posted but I'm an idiot like that), get on IRC... join a pug in #nspug <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Group hug indeed. <3
Also, #nspug is a really bad example. Sadly, no one admins those games, so when people go and make racist comments for 20 minutes, call you an idiot, refuse to use teamwork, and the such, it REALLY detracts from the experience I used to get out of #nspug, quite a few months back. It used to be good, but I lack respect for almost all that touch it now. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Shrug I've never gotten anything like that. The worst I've seen is a person leave mid-round, but that's bannable. Other than that usually the only problems I have is nobody taking charge and calling out the strat <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Sure you could settle with NS being supperior to other games in your mind, but the fact is competetive play always makes a game so much better.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Bingo! Except, completely wrong. I played Tribes 1/2, UT/2K4, Quake 2/3, CS, TFC, NS, Jedi Knight 1/2/3, and a whole plethora of other FPS that I don't feel like making a laundry list of now. I was active in all of their communities, I chatted in their IRC channels where applicable, and I posted on their message boards. The point is, I can't name you a single damned clan, past or present, in any one of these games except for one or two from NS that have a member that frequent the server I play on right now.
The problem with a lot of the clanners in this thread is that you overrate your importance to the game by a damned far sight. The vast majority of gamers don't even bother to make it to the IRC channels or message boards. The clanners tend to be active in the community and thus make up a disproportionate amount of the IRC and message board regs. And yet, you can still see even on the boards and in the IRC channels that there are many, many people who do not participate or care to participate in the clan scene at all. Most of them have contributed ideas, playtesting and money that is just as important as anyone in a clan has.
If you want a thriving clan scene, you need to give people a reason to care about it at all. Yes, you guys are good. The excitement from that wears off after watching a couple demos or having an entire team get owned by one player.
Sure, there's a different atmosphere if you actually join a clan. That's the kind of atmosphere that mandates showing up to practice sessions and games on a schedule, and having high pressure put on your successes and failures. That's not the kind of stress most people who play games want.
And yes, there is a sense of community, which it is possible to duplicate without being on a clan. Certain close-knit communities are part of the impetus of this post, ne?
Which goes back to my original point: "So maybe, instead of blaming a deficiency in the numbers joining clans (which is something I have no experience with) on the mindset of a few select pub servers, look at what the CLANS could be doing to recruit new members -- whether it be creating more and better servers organized towards clan-style NS, whatever that may be, or working together to make a really good website for all clans to post games, HLTV servers, and generate excitement for match-ups. Hell, it looks like the BUS, if and when it's ever released, will be some sort of aid to promote clanning."
So, to reiterate the fundamental question: why should I, or anyone else, care about clans?
I was tempted to read only the first + last posts of this thread then respond, but I have in fact read the entire thing.
First off, YES - scripting has been given a very bad name by certain people, a combination of rumours and hearsay has convinced your average pubber/noob that it's just another form of aimbotting.
One quote that amused me:
"Hmm let's see, they can help you bunnyhop by removing most of the challenge in it".
You Sir, have no idea what you're talking about. It took me a MONTH of hard work and practice to learn the movement and timing involved in bunnyhopping, the 3jump element is about 5% of the total work required.
Many decent players don't use pistolfire scripts at all - they prefer to bind an additional fire button to their keyboard - this allows them to aim using the mouse, and fire using the keyboard, without affecting their accuracy.
Put a 'vet' against a 'noob' and the vet will win with ease.
Turn on blockscripts, and the vet will once again win with ease.
However, the 'noob' will continue to blame scripting, because it's the EASIEST EXCUSE AVAILABLE. It is a scapegoat, and one that they find many (equally ignorant) people agree with.
The ignorance is rampant - 3jump scripts are usually referred to 'bunnyhopping' scripts. This is ludicrous, since it is completely impossible to script bunnyhopping itself.
I myself help run one of the most popular NS public servers in the USA, the [C.A.P] server. A little evidence to prove I know what I'm talking about:
This is an extract from the private server stats, I present these as some evidence that the server is representative of your 'average' classic server.
I spend almost as much time spectating on the server these days as playing there, and I would say I know more about what goes on there in terms of playing styles, what works, what doesn't, than anyone else.
Addressing a few points in earlier pages: There's nothing wrong with an expert fade going fade. Newer players call it res whoring, but decent fades more than make up their res in kills, and the overall effect they have on aliens winning means they have been more useful to the team than say, someone putting up a res node. If a player is new to the game and wants to learn how to play fade, then they should play combat. That way, they can die as a fade without screwing up the game for 7 other people on their team.
I don't believe spawncamping is a good thing, but I don't believe the people that get spawncamped make much of an effort. Half of them have no idea that they're about to spawn back in, so they don't actually move from their spawnpoint for about 5 seconds anyway. If you're going to complain about spawncamping then at least make some kind of effort to kill the guy doing it.
Stacking is a large problem on any server, it happens on ours and it's hard to prevent. Since I got a PT icon, I've found people stacking me when they didn't before. If I join a team first, people blame me because I apparently 'incite' stacking. If I wait until the teams have filled up and then choose one, I'm accused of 'stacking the team'.
Vet icons are a problem. First off, I've met many vets who are nice, kind, helpful, and deserved of their icon. That said, sadly, the MAJORITY of people I've seen wearing vet tags are arrogant, insolent, and would do better to stay well away from publics.
Yes, they get abuse, they rambo, they spawncamp. But they attract it, and they love attracting it. Many of them love the attention, and many of them use phrases such as 'noobed' whenever they die, however they died. These people are insults to the Vet icon itself. They have no-one to blame but themselves for the negative attention that they recieve on public servers, since they do their absolute best to provoke it out of the players.
Having seen the attention that all kinds of vets get on our server, my advice to them is as follows: Either keep quiet, and ignore accusations, or try to HELP people. EXPLAIN to them HOW you are owning them, and they may choose differently on that fine line between jealousy and respect.
A vet without an ego is a rare sight, but a great one when one finds it.
As has been said, at the bottom of things it's the server operator's choice to run blockscripts, and it's your choice whether you play there. People on the internet are incredibly difficult to argue with, because there's almost no incentive to admit you're wrong in any case. Lying to other people, and indeed oneself on the internet is too easy to get away with, that is why people do it. Perhaps they know deep down that scripting is NOT what's owning them, but they would rather believe otherwise.
Skill > Scripts.
Thanks for reading this hideously long post, if you did <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin-Nadagast+Nov 8 2004, 05:06 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Nadagast @ Nov 8 2004, 05:06 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Quaunaut+Nov 8 2004, 04:53 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Quaunaut @ Nov 8 2004, 04:53 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Nadagast+Nov 8 2004, 02:48 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Nadagast @ Nov 8 2004, 02:48 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I sense a group hug coming on <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Seriously if you have a bad taste in your mouth about clanners (I realize this goes against what I just posted but I'm an idiot like that), get on IRC... join a pug in #nspug <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Group hug indeed. <3
Also, #nspug is a really bad example. Sadly, no one admins those games, so when people go and make racist comments for 20 minutes, call you an idiot, refuse to use teamwork, and the such, it REALLY detracts from the experience I used to get out of #nspug, quite a few months back. It used to be good, but I lack respect for almost all that touch it now. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Shrug I've never gotten anything like that. The worst I've seen is a person leave mid-round, but that's bannable. Other than that usually the only problems I have is nobody taking charge and calling out the strat <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> #nspug is a blast if you love waiting an hour for a game to start. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
But all jokes aside, nada, there are good communities. Take NSA, they used to have a rule "no advertising", but they soon realized that, hey, this rule is pretty stupid. They got rid of the rule pretty soon after that.
I'll go on the certain servers you mention, and see what it's like there... I hope it's not as dreadful as you say it is...
<!--QuoteBegin-skifly+Nov 8 2004, 04:14 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (skifly @ Nov 8 2004, 04:14 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Admins of these crap servers plz ban me
steamid 0 0 20786
I'd rather not join your server on accident and download a ton of "cool" sounds, **** "fun" maps, and play massively retarded gameplay with "sweet" plugins like rocketlauncher and refrigerator bombs and whatnot. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Amen.
How does being in a clan require you to set perfect schedules and sign up for leagues like CAL? That isn't what being a clan is about, it's about constantly playing with people you like and working together to get better at the game. You may say that 'oh, that's what pubs are right now!'. But that is totally wrong, the pubs right now do have people playing together but they all aren't trying to get better at the game, sometimes it seems like they are going totally backwards. And the points Nadagast brought up hurts this situation even more because they choose NOT to listen to those who try to go out of their way to help educate and lend them their experience. You don't have to constantly practice but I tell you it's a helluva lot more fun playing organized NS games than random pubbing. At the higher tier level of competitive, maybe liking each other a lot isn't that important but developing teamwork that compliments each other fluidly and winning is what's fun. You're ******* me if you tell me that losing is a lot more fun than winning with great teamwork where each team member supports and compliments each other, winning a masterful game as a team.
TheAdjHe demanded a cool forum title of some type.Join Date: 2004-05-03Member: 28436Members, NS1 Playtester, Constellation
<!--QuoteBegin-Alkiller+Nov 8 2004, 05:12 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Alkiller @ Nov 8 2004, 05:12 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Nadagast+Nov 8 2004, 05:06 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Nadagast @ Nov 8 2004, 05:06 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Quaunaut+Nov 8 2004, 04:53 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Quaunaut @ Nov 8 2004, 04:53 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Nadagast+Nov 8 2004, 02:48 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Nadagast @ Nov 8 2004, 02:48 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I sense a group hug coming on <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Seriously if you have a bad taste in your mouth about clanners (I realize this goes against what I just posted but I'm an idiot like that), get on IRC... join a pug in #nspug <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Group hug indeed. <3
Also, #nspug is a really bad example. Sadly, no one admins those games, so when people go and make racist comments for 20 minutes, call you an idiot, refuse to use teamwork, and the such, it REALLY detracts from the experience I used to get out of #nspug, quite a few months back. It used to be good, but I lack respect for almost all that touch it now. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Shrug I've never gotten anything like that. The worst I've seen is a person leave mid-round, but that's bannable. Other than that usually the only problems I have is nobody taking charge and calling out the strat <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> #nspug is a blast if you love waiting an hour for a game to start. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
But all jokes aside, nada, there are good communities. Take NSA, they used to have a rule "no advertising", but they soon realized that, hey, this rule is pretty stupid. They got rid of the rule pretty soon after that.
I'll go on the certain servers you mention, and see what it's like there... I hope it's not as dreadful as you say it is... <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> When more communities do this we're starting to move along.
<!--QuoteBegin-crisano+Nov 8 2004, 05:20 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (crisano @ Nov 8 2004, 05:20 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> How does being in a clan require you to set perfect schedules and sign up for leagues like CAL? That isn't what being a clan is about, it's about constantly playing with people you like and working together to get better at the game. You may say that 'oh, that's what pubs are right now!'. But that is totally wrong, the pubs right now do have people playing together but they all aren't trying to get better at the game, sometimes it seems like they are going totally backwards. And the points Nadagast brought up hurts this situation even more because they choose NOT to listen to those who try to go out of their way to help educate and lend them their experience. You don't have to constantly practice but I tell you it's a helluva lot more fun playing organized NS games than random pubbing. At the higher tier level of competitive, maybe liking each other a lot isn't that important but developing teamwork that compliments each other fluidly and winning is what's fun. You're ******* me if you tell me that losing is a lot more fun than winning with great teamwork where each team member supports and compliments each other, winning a masterful game as a team. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Exactly the problem.
I can get into the chair on some servers, not drop a tf and get ejected, when I try to reason with them, I am a newb.
Pubbers are pubbers, they don't want to improve <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/confused-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin-SageGaspar+Nov 8 2004, 05:08 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (SageGaspar @ Nov 8 2004, 05:08 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> So, to reiterate the fundamental question: why should I, or anyone else, care about clans? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> You don't have to and it has no bearing on this post... Please take it up in PM with whoever you quoted it from if you want to discuss it further <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Alkiller, I listed NSA as a good pub several times, and I think that if all the other pubs were to 'see the light' as NSA did, the NS community on the whole would be FAR more unified and it would solve many problems. That is the main point of this post <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
And Crisano and Amplifier touch on good points: this lack of change is widespread in these servers. Even trying to change the strat or suggesting to try dropping an arms lab, or asking for the comm to not drop a TF will get me yelled at or assaulted with comments like "Why don't YOU comm if <insert snide remark here>!"
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> You don't have to and it has no bearing on this post... Please take it up in PM with whoever you quoted it from if you want to discuss it further<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
See, but that's wrong. You say we need to eliminate bad blood between certain pubs and clans because it's hurting the clans by spreading disinformation and dissuading people from joining clans. In addition to trivializing these people's free thought, you're also assuming that sending people up into clan land is a desirable thing that "needs to happen."
I know you're trying (with those annoying little smileys) to be a peace keeper and stop the degeneration of this thread, but my question is surely valid. If I don't think the existence of clans is worthwhile (as the people you're talking about must, else there wouldn't be an issue), why do I care about its slow death enough to effect a change?
First just another example: <a href='http://marineshideout.nssource.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?t=154' target='_blank'>http://marineshideout.nssource.co.uk/forum...topic.php?t=154</a>
Now...
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->See, but that's wrong. You say we need to eliminate bad blood between certain pubs and clans because it's hurting the clans by spreading disinformation and dissuading people from joining clans. In addition to trivializing these people's free thought, you're also assuming that sending people up into clan land is a desirable thing that "needs to happen."<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I said the bad blood needs to be eliminated, and I said it's hurting clans, yes. It's hurting the entire NS community being this polarized on these topics. I'm not trivializing their free thought, THEY are. When they post stuff like "If you don't like it leave" etc, it shows they aren't willing to even look at the evidence. I think we can agree that's bad? I said that yes having people join the clan scene is a desirable thing, but I also said that it isn't for everyone (I actually said this about 10 times, I dunno how you missed it =\ ). I'm not attempting to force people to join clans, just trying to show them what the truth is (or even just the evidence), and I think that a likely outcome of that is some people will join clans. Shrug.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I know you're trying (with those annoying little smileys) to be a peace keeper and stop the degeneration of this thread, but my question is surely valid. If I don't think the existence of clans is worthwhile (as the people you're talking about must, else there wouldn't be an issue), why do I care about its slow death enough to effect a change?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
First, smileys own <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> I think I answered your question... This isn't about the NS clanscene. I've mentioned that a ton of times in my post and replies, I'm not sure how you're seeing it that way. <b>This is about stopping the spread of misinformation.</b> In doing that, I think it's likely that some people will join clans. What's wrong with that? Again, I said clanning ISN'T for everyone... and if you don't like it, thats fine. I just want people to know the truth about stuff...
OK, that link you posted was just ridiculous. I didn't realize there were actually servers like that out there. I honestly don't think it's worth the effort to try to get through to people like that... they're just the random smacktards that you get with any large enough group of people.
Sorry if I got a little defensive, I'm just tired of people trying to aggressively force a playstyle on the server I play at, which does tend to be less tolerant of clanners, but nowhere near that level. I'm not going to go back and edit out my posts because I hate when other people do that, but suffice it to say that I don't think we disagree on the main point.
<!--QuoteBegin-SageGaspar+Nov 8 2004, 06:01 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (SageGaspar @ Nov 8 2004, 06:01 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> OK, that link you posted was just ridiculous. I didn't realize there were actually servers like that out there. I honestly don't think it's worth the effort to try to get through to people like that... they're just the random smacktards that you get with any large enough group of people.
Sorry if I got a little defensive, I'm just tired of people trying to aggressively force a playstyle on the server I play at, which does tend to be less tolerant of clanners, but nowhere near that level. I'm not going to go back and edit out my posts because I hate when other people do that, but suffice it to say that I don't think we disagree on the main point. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yup I'm not trying to force clanning down people's throats I'm just trying to show them truth... as opposed to this level of ignorance and closed-minded BS <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/sad-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Edit: I just saw this, and just for example, <a href='http://marineshideout.nssource.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?t=154' target='_blank'>here,</a> NeonKnight says that CAL has banned scripting. It just isn't true. As far as I know, CAL has banned no scripts and has no plans to.
And Sage, just keep in mind that there are a LOT more servers out there just like that, even servers who auto-kick people who have 'vet' icons because in their ignorant minds, all vets either hack/script or do something malicious automatically. That's the point of this thread, to get people to wake up and realize what is happening to the NS community as a whole. It might not happen in your small communities, or might not happen in such a severe degree, but it's happening and sadly, it's spreading.
<!--QuoteBegin-Alkiller+Nov 8 2004, 06:29 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Alkiller @ Nov 8 2004, 06:29 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I just tried out one of said communities... It was 9 minutes into the game before we got an arms lab... <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> but did you have fun? <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
I used to play a Text based MUD online called Dragon Realms. The learning curve was a little high in the game. But the one thing that made it diffrent is that they had "mentors" who when a new player joined they would be told who they are, where they are and come by to see if they need any help and show them the ropes. If a system could be set up with NSguides and NSlearn that would give one of thier helpers a message everytime a new player join NS. THAT would actualy help.
This is probrably impossible right now, but might work out for the future.
TheAdjHe demanded a cool forum title of some type.Join Date: 2004-05-03Member: 28436Members, NS1 Playtester, Constellation
<!--QuoteBegin-Roberto+Nov 8 2004, 06:46 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Roberto @ Nov 8 2004, 06:46 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Alkiller+Nov 8 2004, 06:29 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Alkiller @ Nov 8 2004, 06:29 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I just tried out one of said communities... It was 9 minutes into the game before we got an arms lab... <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> but did you have fun? <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Because we all know it's fun to have 10 turrets in base, no arms lab, and 3 fades chewing your face off as you have armor 0 and a level 0 LMG. That's the most fun in the world.
this thread has far too many people who consider themselves to be the patron saints of the internet rambling about that which they have no understanding of and wondering why noone is listening to their magical solutions
brilliant i love it
edit for clarity: you can argue back and forth all day about "pub communities" and "clan communities" and how each are killing whatever you like but the reason Natural Selection has a "dying" community revolves entirely around 3 reasons
<b>1: there is a much steeper learning curve in NS than in most games and many people who play games which appeal to the lowest common denominator (such as counter-strike) can't be bothered to attempt to play this
2: NS is a combination of two genres and as a result it only attracts people who like at least <u>some</u> aspect of both genres, limiting its' target audience
3: NS is far too resource-intensive, especially processor-wise, which makes it extremely difficult to host in a cost-effective manner. this makes it hard for companies to run NS servers at reasonable prices (when compared to other online games) and still get decent performance, which means less servers</b>
but please, continue to argue about other points which have a minor (if any) impact on the life of this game, as it seems that people far more enjoy arguing than accepting information <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
I wasn't aware the mod was dying. On the contrary, it has seemed to grow, at least to me. I'll look into your magical solutions for all 3 of those problems, though.
<!--QuoteBegin-Ness-Earthbound+Nov 8 2004, 07:15 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Ness-Earthbound @ Nov 8 2004, 07:15 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I wasn't aware the mod was dying. On the contrary, it has seemed to grow, at least to me. I'll look into your magical solutions for all 3 of those problems, though. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> i made no claims of having solutions to any of the three problems i named, so i don't know what you're talking about
in fact, it isn't possible to solve any of those problems, as they are all a result of the nature of the game
i'm simply sick and tired of hearing people on both sides of this pointless "argument" talk about how the other side is screwing things up and how noone's view is correct but their own
people can play the game however they choose and server admins can run their servers however they choose
these problems ("pub" vs "clan") exist in every game i've ever played but in most the game is large enough that it really doesn't matter. it only matters in NS because of the size of the community, so addressing the symptoms of the problem instead of the cause is pointless
hasn't this dead horse been beaten enough already?
and re: NS dying, i was merely echoing this: <!--QuoteBegin-Nadagast+Nov 7 2004, 05:48 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Nadagast @ Nov 7 2004, 05:48 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->... is killing NS's clan scene, and NS on a whole...<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I've seen plenty of arguments from both sides stating that their view is not the absolute correct way, but simply their interpretation of things from their own experiences. Of course, for your three reasons, I was just asking for some sort of solution to these things (I believe that Combat was a step in taking care of your second issue, for example). The worst that could come from this thread is that each "side" would get a better view of how the other thinks. Seems like that would be helping more than hurting, now that I think about it.
<!--QuoteBegin-titanium+Nov 8 2004, 07:22 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (titanium @ Nov 8 2004, 07:22 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> these problems ("pub" vs "clan") exist in every game i've ever played but in most the game is large enough that it really doesn't matter. it only matters in NS because of the size of the community, so addressing the symptoms of the problem instead of the cause is pointless <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> No... they don't. In almost all games pubbers respect top clanners (that is if they know of them)... And they certainly don't go around calling the top league a bunch of scripters or cheaters.
Anyway, I think you missed the point of my post. I'm not professing to know any more than anyone else, all I'm saying is that the closed-mindedness of some pub communities (I don't think anyone will argue that blindly ignoring any evidence is good) is bad... and should be fixed
I remember when this beta first came out and we had a scrim with blockscripts on. The so called l33t players on the other team all of a sudden where crap! I mean they really played ALOT worse.
I think scripts give an unfair advantage if they didn't you wouldn't use them.. Some scripts are fine stuff like changing mouse sensetivity based on what team you go.
But pistol scripts, blink/swip, blink/meta, bunny hop, knife scripts etc etc i feel give a player an unfair advantage.
Either code these into the game so everyone has access to them or block them so everyone plays on a level playing field.
<!--QuoteBegin-kabab+Nov 8 2004, 07:45 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (kabab @ Nov 8 2004, 07:45 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I am a clanner and i am all for blockscripts.
I remember when this beta first came out and we had a scrim with blockscripts on. The so called l33t players on the other team all of a sudden where crap! I mean they really played ALOT worse.
I think scripts give an unfair advantage if they didn't you wouldn't use them.. Some scripts are fine stuff like changing mouse sensetivity based on what team you go.
But pistol scripts, blink/swip, blink/meta, bunny hop, knife scripts etc etc i feel give a player an unfair advantage.
Either code these into the game so everyone has access to them or block them so everyone plays on a level playing field. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> So... you haven't actually tried scripts (anyone who's tried blink/swipe knows it sucks) or know how they work?
What clan are you in? Are you in CAL? Do you ever scrim? Want to scrim my team? We can play with consistency, blockscripts, and Cheating-Death. And we certainly won't "play ALOT worse" with mp_bs on.
Comments
Seriously if you have a bad taste in your mouth about clanners (I realize this goes against what I just posted but I'm an idiot like that), get on IRC... join a pug in #nspug <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Group hug indeed. <3
Also, #nspug is a really bad example. Sadly, no one admins those games, so when people go and make racist comments for 20 minutes, call you an idiot, refuse to use teamwork, and the such, it REALLY detracts from the experience I used to get out of #nspug, quite a few months back. It used to be good, but I lack respect for almost all that touch it now.
Seriously if you have a bad taste in your mouth about clanners (I realize this goes against what I just posted but I'm an idiot like that), get on IRC... join a pug in #nspug <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Group hug indeed. <3
Also, #nspug is a really bad example. Sadly, no one admins those games, so when people go and make racist comments for 20 minutes, call you an idiot, refuse to use teamwork, and the such, it REALLY detracts from the experience I used to get out of #nspug, quite a few months back. It used to be good, but I lack respect for almost all that touch it now. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Hmm, I never had the need to find an admin but I thought that they do have admins for the game. All you have to do is request and admin in the channel with .admin, and someone will be there to help you I believe. I've seen people banned for leaving pugs early and screwing a team, stuff like that. Racism is probably against the rules too since it shouldn't be tolerated.
Seriously if you have a bad taste in your mouth about clanners (I realize this goes against what I just posted but I'm an idiot like that), get on IRC... join a pug in #nspug <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Group hug indeed. <3
Also, #nspug is a really bad example. Sadly, no one admins those games, so when people go and make racist comments for 20 minutes, call you an idiot, refuse to use teamwork, and the such, it REALLY detracts from the experience I used to get out of #nspug, quite a few months back. It used to be good, but I lack respect for almost all that touch it now. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Shrug I've never gotten anything like that. The worst I've seen is a person leave mid-round, but that's bannable. Other than that usually the only problems I have is nobody taking charge and calling out the strat <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Bingo! Except, completely wrong. I played Tribes 1/2, UT/2K4, Quake 2/3, CS, TFC, NS, Jedi Knight 1/2/3, and a whole plethora of other FPS that I don't feel like making a laundry list of now. I was active in all of their communities, I chatted in their IRC channels where applicable, and I posted on their message boards. The point is, I can't name you a single damned clan, past or present, in any one of these games except for one or two from NS that have a member that frequent the server I play on right now.
The problem with a lot of the clanners in this thread is that you overrate your importance to the game by a damned far sight. The vast majority of gamers don't even bother to make it to the IRC channels or message boards. The clanners tend to be active in the community and thus make up a disproportionate amount of the IRC and message board regs. And yet, you can still see even on the boards and in the IRC channels that there are many, many people who do not participate or care to participate in the clan scene at all. Most of them have contributed ideas, playtesting and money that is just as important as anyone in a clan has.
If you want a thriving clan scene, you need to give people a reason to care about it at all. Yes, you guys are good. The excitement from that wears off after watching a couple demos or having an entire team get owned by one player.
Sure, there's a different atmosphere if you actually join a clan. That's the kind of atmosphere that mandates showing up to practice sessions and games on a schedule, and having high pressure put on your successes and failures. That's not the kind of stress most people who play games want.
And yes, there is a sense of community, which it is possible to duplicate without being on a clan. Certain close-knit communities are part of the impetus of this post, ne?
Which goes back to my original point: "So maybe, instead of blaming a deficiency in the numbers joining clans (which is something I have no experience with) on the mindset of a few select pub servers, look at what the CLANS could be doing to recruit new members -- whether it be creating more and better servers organized towards clan-style NS, whatever that may be, or working together to make a really good website for all clans to post games, HLTV servers, and generate excitement for match-ups. Hell, it looks like the BUS, if and when it's ever released, will be some sort of aid to promote clanning."
So, to reiterate the fundamental question: why should I, or anyone else, care about clans?
First off, YES - scripting has been given a very bad name by certain people, a combination of rumours and hearsay has convinced your average pubber/noob that it's just another form of aimbotting.
One quote that amused me:
"Hmm let's see, they can help you bunnyhop by removing most of the challenge in it".
You Sir, have no idea what you're talking about. It took me a MONTH of hard work and practice to learn the movement and timing involved in bunnyhopping, the 3jump element is about 5% of the total work required.
Many decent players don't use pistolfire scripts at all - they prefer to bind an additional fire button to their keyboard - this allows them to aim using the mouse, and fire using the keyboard, without affecting their accuracy.
Put a 'vet' against a 'noob' and the vet will win with ease.
Turn on blockscripts, and the vet will once again win with ease.
However, the 'noob' will continue to blame scripting, because it's the EASIEST EXCUSE AVAILABLE. It is a scapegoat, and one that they find many (equally ignorant) people agree with.
The ignorance is rampant - 3jump scripts are usually referred to 'bunnyhopping' scripts. This is ludicrous, since it is completely impossible to script bunnyhopping itself.
I myself help run one of the most popular NS public servers in the USA, the [C.A.P] server. A little evidence to prove I know what I'm talking about:
Total Connections: 251699
Monthly Connections: 38404
Daily Connections: 1923
Classic Victories: Marine - 3828, Alien - 4653
This is an extract from the private server stats, I present these as some evidence that the server is representative of your 'average' classic server.
I spend almost as much time spectating on the server these days as playing there, and I would say I know more about what goes on there in terms of playing styles, what works, what doesn't, than anyone else.
Addressing a few points in earlier pages: There's nothing wrong with an expert fade going fade. Newer players call it res whoring, but decent fades more than make up their res in kills, and the overall effect they have on aliens winning means they have been more useful to the team than say, someone putting up a res node. If a player is new to the game and wants to learn how to play fade, then they should play combat. That way, they can die as a fade without screwing up the game for 7 other people on their team.
I don't believe spawncamping is a good thing, but I don't believe the people that get spawncamped make much of an effort. Half of them have no idea that they're about to spawn back in, so they don't actually move from their spawnpoint for about 5 seconds anyway. If you're going to complain about spawncamping then at least make some kind of effort to kill the guy doing it.
Stacking is a large problem on any server, it happens on ours and it's hard to prevent. Since I got a PT icon, I've found people stacking me when they didn't before. If I join a team first, people blame me because I apparently 'incite' stacking. If I wait until the teams have filled up and then choose one, I'm accused of 'stacking the team'.
Vet icons are a problem. First off, I've met many vets who are nice, kind, helpful, and deserved of their icon. That said, sadly, the MAJORITY of people I've seen wearing vet tags are arrogant, insolent, and would do better to stay well away from publics.
Yes, they get abuse, they rambo, they spawncamp. But they attract it, and they love attracting it. Many of them love the attention, and many of them use phrases such as 'noobed' whenever they die, however they died. These people are insults to the Vet icon itself. They have no-one to blame but themselves for the negative attention that they recieve on public servers, since they do their absolute best to provoke it out of the players.
Having seen the attention that all kinds of vets get on our server, my advice to them is as follows: Either keep quiet, and ignore accusations, or try to HELP people. EXPLAIN to them HOW you are owning them, and they may choose differently on that fine line between jealousy and respect.
A vet without an ego is a rare sight, but a great one when one finds it.
As has been said, at the bottom of things it's the server operator's choice to run blockscripts, and it's your choice whether you play there. People on the internet are incredibly difficult to argue with, because there's almost no incentive to admit you're wrong in any case. Lying to other people, and indeed oneself on the internet is too easy to get away with, that is why people do it. Perhaps they know deep down that scripting is NOT what's owning them, but they would rather believe otherwise.
Skill > Scripts.
Thanks for reading this hideously long post, if you did <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Seriously if you have a bad taste in your mouth about clanners (I realize this goes against what I just posted but I'm an idiot like that), get on IRC... join a pug in #nspug <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Group hug indeed. <3
Also, #nspug is a really bad example. Sadly, no one admins those games, so when people go and make racist comments for 20 minutes, call you an idiot, refuse to use teamwork, and the such, it REALLY detracts from the experience I used to get out of #nspug, quite a few months back. It used to be good, but I lack respect for almost all that touch it now. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Shrug I've never gotten anything like that. The worst I've seen is a person leave mid-round, but that's bannable. Other than that usually the only problems I have is nobody taking charge and calling out the strat <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
#nspug is a blast if you love waiting an hour for a game to start. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
But all jokes aside, nada, there are good communities. Take NSA, they used to have a rule "no advertising", but they soon realized that, hey, this rule is pretty stupid. They got rid of the rule pretty soon after that.
I'll go on the certain servers you mention, and see what it's like there... I hope it's not as dreadful as you say it is...
steamid 0 0 20786
I'd rather not join your server on accident and download a ton of "cool" sounds, **** "fun" maps, and play massively retarded gameplay with "sweet" plugins like rocketlauncher and refrigerator bombs and whatnot. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Amen.
Seriously if you have a bad taste in your mouth about clanners (I realize this goes against what I just posted but I'm an idiot like that), get on IRC... join a pug in #nspug <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Group hug indeed. <3
Also, #nspug is a really bad example. Sadly, no one admins those games, so when people go and make racist comments for 20 minutes, call you an idiot, refuse to use teamwork, and the such, it REALLY detracts from the experience I used to get out of #nspug, quite a few months back. It used to be good, but I lack respect for almost all that touch it now. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Shrug I've never gotten anything like that. The worst I've seen is a person leave mid-round, but that's bannable. Other than that usually the only problems I have is nobody taking charge and calling out the strat <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
#nspug is a blast if you love waiting an hour for a game to start. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
But all jokes aside, nada, there are good communities. Take NSA, they used to have a rule "no advertising", but they soon realized that, hey, this rule is pretty stupid. They got rid of the rule pretty soon after that.
I'll go on the certain servers you mention, and see what it's like there... I hope it's not as dreadful as you say it is... <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
When more communities do this we're starting to move along.
Exactly the problem.
I can get into the chair on some servers, not drop a tf and get ejected, when I try to reason with them, I am a newb.
Pubbers are pubbers, they don't want to improve
<!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/confused-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
You don't have to and it has no bearing on this post... Please take it up in PM with whoever you quoted it from if you want to discuss it further <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Alkiller, I listed NSA as a good pub several times, and I think that if all the other pubs were to 'see the light' as NSA did, the NS community on the whole would be FAR more unified and it would solve many problems. That is the main point of this post <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
And Crisano and Amplifier touch on good points: this lack of change is widespread in these servers. Even trying to change the strat or suggesting to try dropping an arms lab, or asking for the comm to not drop a TF will get me yelled at or assaulted with comments like "Why don't YOU comm if <insert snide remark here>!"
See, but that's wrong. You say we need to eliminate bad blood between certain pubs and clans because it's hurting the clans by spreading disinformation and dissuading people from joining clans. In addition to trivializing these people's free thought, you're also assuming that sending people up into clan land is a desirable thing that "needs to happen."
I know you're trying (with those annoying little smileys) to be a peace keeper and stop the degeneration of this thread, but my question is surely valid. If I don't think the existence of clans is worthwhile (as the people you're talking about must, else there wouldn't be an issue), why do I care about its slow death enough to effect a change?
Now...
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->See, but that's wrong. You say we need to eliminate bad blood between certain pubs and clans because it's hurting the clans by spreading disinformation and dissuading people from joining clans. In addition to trivializing these people's free thought, you're also assuming that sending people up into clan land is a desirable thing that "needs to happen."<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I said the bad blood needs to be eliminated, and I said it's hurting clans, yes. It's hurting the entire NS community being this polarized on these topics. I'm not trivializing their free thought, THEY are. When they post stuff like "If you don't like it leave" etc, it shows they aren't willing to even look at the evidence. I think we can agree that's bad?
I said that yes having people join the clan scene is a desirable thing, but I also said that it isn't for everyone (I actually said this about 10 times, I dunno how you missed it =\ ). I'm not attempting to force people to join clans, just trying to show them what the truth is (or even just the evidence), and I think that a likely outcome of that is some people will join clans. Shrug.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I know you're trying (with those annoying little smileys) to be a peace keeper and stop the degeneration of this thread, but my question is surely valid. If I don't think the existence of clans is worthwhile (as the people you're talking about must, else there wouldn't be an issue), why do I care about its slow death enough to effect a change?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
First, smileys own <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
I think I answered your question... This isn't about the NS clanscene. I've mentioned that a ton of times in my post and replies, I'm not sure how you're seeing it that way. <b>This is about stopping the spread of misinformation.</b> In doing that, I think it's likely that some people will join clans. What's wrong with that? Again, I said clanning ISN'T for everyone... and if you don't like it, thats fine. I just want people to know the truth about stuff...
Sorry if I got a little defensive, I'm just tired of people trying to aggressively force a playstyle on the server I play at, which does tend to be less tolerant of clanners, but nowhere near that level. I'm not going to go back and edit out my posts because I hate when other people do that, but suffice it to say that I don't think we disagree on the main point.
Sorry if I got a little defensive, I'm just tired of people trying to aggressively force a playstyle on the server I play at, which does tend to be less tolerant of clanners, but nowhere near that level. I'm not going to go back and edit out my posts because I hate when other people do that, but suffice it to say that I don't think we disagree on the main point. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yup I'm not trying to force clanning down people's throats I'm just trying to show them truth... as opposed to this level of ignorance and closed-minded BS <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/sad-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Edit: I just saw this, and just for example, <a href='http://marineshideout.nssource.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?t=154' target='_blank'>here,</a> NeonKnight says that CAL has banned scripting. It just isn't true. As far as I know, CAL has banned no scripts and has no plans to.
I understand what you're trying to do, and I support you in doing so, but it will probably never change.
but did you have fun? <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
I used to play a Text based MUD online called Dragon Realms. The learning curve was a little high in the game. But the one thing that made it diffrent is that they had "mentors" who when a new player joined they would be told who they are, where they are and come by to see if they need any help and show them the ropes. If a system could be set up with NSguides and NSlearn that would give one of thier helpers a message everytime a new player join NS. THAT would actualy help.
This is probrably impossible right now, but might work out for the future.
but did you have fun? <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Because we all know it's fun to have 10 turrets in base, no arms lab, and 3 fades chewing your face off as you have armor 0 and a level 0 LMG. That's the most fun in the world.
brilliant i love it
edit for clarity: you can argue back and forth all day about "pub communities" and "clan communities" and how each are killing whatever you like but the reason Natural Selection has a "dying" community revolves entirely around 3 reasons
<b>1: there is a much steeper learning curve in NS than in most games and many people who play games which appeal to the lowest common denominator (such as counter-strike) can't be bothered to attempt to play this
2: NS is a combination of two genres and as a result it only attracts people who like at least <u>some</u> aspect of both genres, limiting its' target audience
3: NS is far too resource-intensive, especially processor-wise, which makes it extremely difficult to host in a cost-effective manner. this makes it hard for companies to run NS servers at reasonable prices (when compared to other online games) and still get decent performance, which means less servers</b>
but please, continue to argue about other points which have a minor (if any) impact on the life of this game, as it seems that people far more enjoy arguing than accepting information <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
i made no claims of having solutions to any of the three problems i named, so i don't know what you're talking about
in fact, it isn't possible to solve any of those problems, as they are all a result of the nature of the game
i'm simply sick and tired of hearing people on both sides of this pointless "argument" talk about how the other side is screwing things up and how noone's view is correct but their own
people can play the game however they choose and server admins can run their servers however they choose
these problems ("pub" vs "clan") exist in every game i've ever played but in most the game is large enough that it really doesn't matter. it only matters in NS because of the size of the community, so addressing the symptoms of the problem instead of the cause is pointless
hasn't this dead horse been beaten enough already?
and re: NS dying, i was merely echoing this:
<!--QuoteBegin-Nadagast+Nov 7 2004, 05:48 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Nadagast @ Nov 7 2004, 05:48 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->... is killing NS's clan scene, and NS on a whole...<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No... they don't. In almost all games pubbers respect top clanners (that is if they know of them)... And they certainly don't go around calling the top league a bunch of scripters or cheaters.
Anyway, I think you missed the point of my post. I'm not professing to know any more than anyone else, all I'm saying is that the closed-mindedness of some pub communities (I don't think anyone will argue that blindly ignoring any evidence is good) is bad... and should be fixed
I remember when this beta first came out and we had a scrim with blockscripts on. The so called l33t players on the other team all of a sudden where crap! I mean they really played ALOT worse.
I think scripts give an unfair advantage if they didn't you wouldn't use them.. Some scripts are fine stuff like changing mouse sensetivity based on what team you go.
But pistol scripts, blink/swip, blink/meta, bunny hop, knife scripts etc etc i feel give a player an unfair advantage.
Either code these into the game so everyone has access to them or block them so everyone plays on a level playing field.
I remember when this beta first came out and we had a scrim with blockscripts on. The so called l33t players on the other team all of a sudden where crap! I mean they really played ALOT worse.
I think scripts give an unfair advantage if they didn't you wouldn't use them.. Some scripts are fine stuff like changing mouse sensetivity based on what team you go.
But pistol scripts, blink/swip, blink/meta, bunny hop, knife scripts etc etc i feel give a player an unfair advantage.
Either code these into the game so everyone has access to them or block them so everyone plays on a level playing field. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
So... you haven't actually tried scripts (anyone who's tried blink/swipe knows it sucks) or know how they work?
What clan are you in? Are you in CAL? Do you ever scrim? Want to scrim my team? We can play with consistency, blockscripts, and Cheating-Death. And we certainly won't "play ALOT worse" with mp_bs on.