<!--QuoteBegin-Necrosis+Nov 9 2004, 04:18 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Necrosis @ Nov 9 2004, 04:18 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> If you don't pay for the server, you don't dictate the rules.
Vote with your feet. Play elsewhere. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I guess you didn't see crisano's post with the A ---- B ------ C thing. The problem is NOT admins running their servers how they see fit. The problem is that these servers are where most of the new players go, and they are also havens of idiots that cite scripts as being the source of a clanner's skill, or classify all clanners are res ****, etc. The new players will obviously believe them, for the reasons crisano mentioned - when the occasional clanner comes on the pub, he'll most likely get harrassed by people if he's trying to hard, which will lead to bickering and in some cases a kick/ban. But the kick isn't necessary; to the new players, the veteran anti-clanners have been proven correct. The misinformation spreads, reaching a new wave of new players, who will in turn "inform" the next wave. So, in effect, these people aren't just affecting their own server, they're widening the rift between clanners and pubbers, which is a death toll for NS.
You can do whatever you want on your own server, block scripts, ban bunnyhopping, whatever, but the second you start to propogate an attitude that detrimentally affects all players everywhere, you've overstepped your boundaries, and you can't just blow it off as "play elsewhere".
<!--QuoteBegin-crisano+Nov 9 2004, 02:48 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (crisano @ Nov 9 2004, 02:48 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-SpaceJesus+Nov 9 2004, 02:43 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (SpaceJesus @ Nov 9 2004, 02:43 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Redford+Nov 9 2004, 02:15 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Redford @ Nov 9 2004, 02:15 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> ...If the pubber community hates you, it is directly though your actions towards them, either indirectly through using scripts... <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yet another major problem with the current NS community. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I've seen a lot of hate directed at clanners or vets just because they were clanners or vets. Perhaps yeah they used scripts, so using scripts deserves hating? As Space Jesus said, that's the totally wrong attitude that needs to be fixed in this community. If someone uses scripts, should you hate them? No. If someone uses hacks should you hate them? Sure! Does script = hacks? No. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> The bigger question is: How the hell do you find out that said vet is using a script? There is absolutely no way to tell.
I laugh EVERY TIME some random person on a pub yells SCRIPTZ after he gets owned. He has no idea what script, and has no way to tell if the person is scripting. He just yells out scripts because he thinks that's why he's getting owned. He's ignorant.
I have a demo of this for evidence if anyone needs some. Lordy will also attest to this. The guy said I was a blatant script cheater or something and told me to stay on the server for 30 more minutes so he could hack my computer and make it crash or something.... real mature.
During 1.0x eve, cri, and ReD all came to the server I always played on all the time quite a bit.
I hated those guys.
The Cri guys were always killing everyone, spawncamping, and LMGing the hive to death, the eve guys were always ramboing and killing everyone, then spawncamping. The ReD guys, well, we all just hated mulock. During 2.0x I went around hating anyone with a vet tag. anyone who came around doing really well and trying to tell everyone that they were wrong was stupid... And redline, from old EpX... he would always bhop around and go crazy fast, eventually someone talked about how they "had that script too." from then on scripts were the devil, and they played for you.
keep in mind that I had played on the same server from 1.0x to 2.01 or so... so pretty much anyone who came into the "bubble" was shunned, if they were a vet
eventually during 3.0 beta I joined Sphere, and we made it to the CAL omega playoffs... and we were always scrimming and such... It was great because I had played with almost every person in the clan since 1.04 or 2.0... Azkar told me all about different clan stuff, since he was in BAH in the earlier season. I got scripts for myself and learned how to bhop... and finally when I started pubbing during the more laid back parts of the season, and after it ended.
All the comms were terrible, getting weapons 1 first, not handing out shotties, just doing retarded mistakes that could easily be cured if someone just talked to them. So, I tried, but they wouldnt listen to me... I had the clan tag on along with a few others in the server.
Eventually I just got fed up with having everyone in the pub server having no idea what they're doing, and not listening to anyone about anything... The other day someone said I speedhacked, since I was moving my mouse in "odd" ways while jumping, and jumping of other slopes and such... speedhacking... "exploiting the **** out of the engine"
just like I used to be...
... anyway... Im just supporting the fact that once you get in a clan, everything is just so much clearer, i myself am an example... it happened to me...
Necrosis, there's a fine line between debating and flaming. I'm happy to say you don't tend to cross it. This is one debate I wouldn't easily take offense in anyway; this has gone out of the realm of "meaningful" and into the realm of "idealistic".
That said, I still can't agree with you. What if, hypothetically speaking, one server became very famous as a newbie server. So well known that everyone you met online referred you to it as a good place to learn. New players would hear about it, and most likely would visit.
Now, imagine that this particular server <u>also</u> had a rule: no battlegorging. If you're a gorge, and you actively seek out combat, you will be kicked or banned, because that's just the way the admins think the game should be played. Perfectly good rule - maybe they were having a problem at one point with new players gorging, running into a marine, and dying right away; perhaps they just ran into ms and dropped two ocs, which were promptly destroyed, and they didn't like people wasting all that res.
We agree that the admins are perfectly within their rights to enforce this rule. It might be strange, but you know, if you really want to be uber-battle-gorgy, there's plenty of other servers out there where you can practice. And they might have legitimate reasons; it's really none of your business. Besides, other than that, the server is well-admined. Lamers and llamas are kicked when they need to be, no racism is tolerated, and the admins respect the players' rights.
One last tidbit of information about this server: the admins and regulars on this server also badmouth anyone who battlegorges. Apparently anyone who gorge-dances properly is doing something to gain an advantage over the rest of the us. The new players will obviously think that what these people say is true, because whenever <u>they</u> get caught somewhere by a lone marine as gorge, they're dead before they even know what hit 'em. To these new players, there's no possible way someone could survive legitimately in battle with a gorge; it's impossible.
This attitude leads to two things. First of all, if a strange player comes on the server who knows how to conserve adrenaline, gorgedance, use web, etc, and starts getting kills as a gorge, he will either be banned or, at the very least, verbally abused by these players who don't know that it is indeed possible to do such things without cheating. In the grand scheme of things, this behavior really isn't important, because the abused player can obviously just leave.
Secondly, and more importantly, this new player - after playing for a while on this server - starts saying the same things to even newer players that the server vets told <i>him</i>, how to play, how to work as a team, and oh yeah, battlegorging is evil. Thus it passes on to the next wave of players. But the server is getting more and more crowded; people start leaving and moving off to other servers, where gorgedancing is allowed. Suddenly you have players that gorgedance getting abused <u>everywhere</u>, on all different kinds of servers, because the players that originally started from that particular newbie server all believe gorgedancing to be equivalent with cheating.
Furthermore, new players these anti-gorgedancers encounter are taken in by their words, because it all makes so much sense. Gorging is hard for them, and the movements they see other gorgedancers do are incredibly odd sometimes, and in the end it's just better to assume foul play rather than an imbalance of skill or experience (the ego expands with anonymity, for some reason).
Thus the cycle continues, new players constantly being told by this ever-expanding community of veteran pubbers that gorgedancing is evil, and should be shunned and/or banned. The best NS players are scorned by the incoming newbies because they're all haxors, according to the new players' mentors. Slowly the gap between the battlegorges and the anti-battlegorges widens, and the battlegorges soon find it impossible to find a decent public server without getting harrassed, and so they stop caring about ALL pubs. And it all started because one particular server's admins all badmouthed gorgedancing to new players.
Now, I'm not saying that any particular server has that power, though I believe some do come close. I'm just trying to raise the point: can server admins <u>still</u> do whatever they want, say whatever they want, badmouth whatever they want, as long as it's on their own server, <u>even if it affects other servers, and the community as a whole</u>? I think not.
It's not like it's the majority vs. the minority, oh no, because in this example anti-battlegorging was not the newbie's initial opinion. Unfortunately he was convinced of this opinion before he ever saw the other side to the story, which for most people solidifies their attitude. Therefore, I don't consider the battlegorgers to be in the minority; most people didn't even care about battlegorging one way or another before players from that unnamed server showed up in their servers and on their channels and boards. It's an imposed opinion, propaganda, if you will. It is not <u>their</u> opinion, it is them spouting someone else's opinion. And a thousand people all thinking with one mind and speaking from one mouth represents just one person, in my book. Minority vs majority my ****; the number of hardcore battlegorgers and hardcore anti-battlegorgers were probably equal in the beginning, and the only reason one side grew is because their opinion was the only one in circulation.
And cmon, I get points for the gorgedancing, right? Right?
Following post really goes out to whoever thinks it applies to them. Most of the real community will skim this or realise that it doesn't apply to them. Its not in my nature for personal attacks, so I use "you" as a sweeping generalisation of everyone who thinks the nub army are oppressing them. I do receive PM's and I do reply, so if anyone thinks they can have a civil conversation then roll on into my Inbox. If you just rant about how you're right, yet put forth no real proof (and smacktard comments like "I've been playing X years" don't cut it folks, tbh you could play this game your entire life and that'd still make some people a tard) then I *will* be deploying the ignorehammer.
Also bear in mind my great love for the community and the fact that there's nothing I'd like better than a nice clean forum without tards who should KNOW BETTER persistently clogging up the works.
Is your coffee boiled? Got a biscuit? Then sit down and read this like a Bremner sketch (or alternatively SNL) - no hate here except for the ignorant.
Crisano's A-B-C post has nothing to do with how people choose to spend their money, 5kyh16h.
If you believe certain servers are havens of idiots, then with my blessing I tell you to MAKE YOUR OWN. If its great, it will catch in. If your ideas are as dumb and idiotic (as you seem to think certain servers are) then people will not go to your server.
Of course, anyone who has an empty server will always be quick to claim "noone can handle my leet server rules". We all know what that means though, don't we.
Facts are facts, people will not play on crap servers. You can't dress it up any other way. Server ops pay good coin to ensure that they get to game the way they like it - none of us are any different. If anyone is feeling shortchanged, make their own server. Make their own mod. Whatever. You have a snowball in hell's chance of forcing someone to fork out their cash in order to run a server thats NOT the way they like it. A lot of server ops will take into consideration the requests of their community, but they are by no means obliged to.
If we attempt to bring this in line with the A-B-C then you'll note that the door swings both ways - all you need to do is get some friends and run your own server. As I've said, if its any good you'll grow a community, and from there you can try to increase your numbers. If people think your rules are dumb, your server will die, and you will have unequivocal proof that you are a minority.
I address this openly to anyone who feels that they know better - don't whine, don't make claims, pull your finger out and DO IT. Make a better server, get a bigger community.
As for this purported clanner-pubber gap, its not encouraged by serverside switches, or balance tweaks, its encouraged by the COMMUNITY. If people act like tards in servers, then people who play in those servers will associate those people with that behaviour. Anyone who stands up and says "that guys not a tard!" is instantly signing up to their banner and puts himself closer to the same flag.
Consider, I join a server, I act like a noob, tell the admins their rules are dumb, and demand explanations for why I should follow their rules. I get banned, and rightly so. Anyone who then sides with me will take on a portion of my tard behaviour, until the point where anyone who says "Nec was right" effectively says "I'm a tard too".
Newsflash - the man who pays the money does not have to justify his rules to you. You don't like them, bugger off. Jump off a cliff. People don't pay money for some immature brat with a grudge to bounce on their server, ignore half the rules, then turn round and backchat the admin as to why they should follow them.
You do that on ANY server, for ANY game, and you are heading for a ban. Wouldn't need to think twice. I defy anyone to say otherwise. If a new player joined a more experienced server and did dumb things, is he going to be educated? If he asks why he should have to do things your way, do you sit the little guy down and explain to him? If he gets in the CC, do you explain to him that your server doesn't like noobs in the chair? Doesn't like noobs dropping dumb chambers as gorge?
No, I tell you what you do, you ban him. And why not? He doesn't understand the rules, your motd said no noobs in the chair, your server name was GK426's NO NOOBS SERVOR, and yet he still came in! He's obviously and idiot, so lets ban him.
Consider now when a player enters a server with a "no consonants in your name" rule. He sees it in the motd, he's aware of the rules, yet he keeps the consonants in his name. Clearly, this man is an idiot. You could ban him on the spot. Instead you give him a friendly warning. His reply "Yeah I read the rules, they suck".
What would you do next? Whack him with a ban. Again, I double dare ANYONE to say that they would enter a dialogue with a griefer. What does our banned griefer do? He adds your name to his list in Notepad and then in every thread he makes, he'll mention your server's name as part of the Axis of Terror.
The majority of people will just laugh at the little tantrum child, especially when its clearly dumb enough to say "ogm I broke the rules of this server and got banned, how dare they, DON'T THEY KNOW WHO I AM". Frankly, noone cares who you are. There's plenty of people queuing up for the server, why worry about some child who knowingly broke the rules?
The issue at hand is not scripts, hacks, cheats, customs, etc, its about a small group of people who are blindingly convinced of their own superiority that they can see no other way. If they had any money, or intelligence, they'd be running their own server, happily educating the interested in how to play the game. Or, possibly, they'd be sitting on an empty server whining about how all those noobs won't join their leet server. Its a slap in the face that some people desperately need.
Realise that there are BIGGER things in this world, and your sole opinion will not influence them. You do not pay for it, you are not entitled to it, noone is obliged to provide it to you.
IF YOU DO NOT LIKE IT, MAKE YOUR OWN.
I want to look back on 5kyh16h's comment, which was
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> but the second you start to propogate an attitude that detrimentally affects all players everywhere <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I reply to this, but direct it to the group as a whole, I'm not singling ONE person out. Do you not think that that moment is when a small jumped up group of infants decides that they know better than the entire community? The servers have spoken, the players have spoken. Ranting in a thread about how everyone should bow to you is an exercise in futility.
What I find quite funny is that a smaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaall tiny group of children are bleating about a switch that they can change on their own server. Why force their views on others? Ironic they accuse so many of their own crime. Is it not easier, more acceptable, more tolerable, for them to make their own server? Invite people to play with them? Why must the people paying hard cash for their servers be forced to change just because some people can't find a "good" game?
The issue isn't about switches, its about people too cheap to fork out a small amount of money to run a server. People who would willingly admit to joining servers, fully aware of the rules, and then breaking them. Silly silly people. Here's a more fruitful exercise, run up to a local law enforcement official and kick him in the nuts. When he "exercises reasonable force" in restraining you from assaulting an officer of the law, turn round and tell him his laws are dumb.
I bet most people would say "Move to a different country then, tard".
Silly silly children. Crying babies get more attention. Once you get to a certain age, most of us realise whining will not help, noone will come to clean your bottom, talc it, and give you a new nappy. People will laugh and point at the man who pooed his pants. If you've any wit, you would know better. Lead by example, put your money on the line. Griefing people who are paying money to run a server is NOT a good way to get support. Griefing servers will make you look like a tard. Go into a server and KNOWINGLY break the rules and you will soon become very well known as "that nubtard who totally ignored our rules then told us they were dumb". If you don't listen to nubtards, then why do you think anyone else is going to listen to you? Who are you anyway? Some text on a forum messageboard? You think anyone cares?
This is reality Greg. You get a group of people, you make it work, and others will listen. Otherwise you may as well put on a placard, grab a megaphone, and sit outside city hall telling everyone your viewpoints until the police haul you off.
Put your money where your mouth is folks, you make your own server. Record your stats, let everyone see how popular you are. Let everyone know how many tards you had to ban because they wouldn't read the rules. I'd like to see it. It'd be an example and it would inspire others to do the same, and then NS would be like EVERY OTHER GAMING COMMUNITY where people run their OWN servers with their OWN decisions on switches. If your server is empty, then the people have spoken - you suck.
As a sort of epilogue to this post, consider that you are the MINORITY, and that as such you will need to be LIKED or at least TOLERATED in order to get people on your side. Griefing won't help. Having a grudge list of servers, mods, players whom you MUST name in every thread won't help either. Derailing threads by bringing up your personal crusade won't help. Sure, you'll attract 3 or 4 other grannies but you'll still end up looking like Mary Whitehouse. If you want to prove how RIGHT you are (and clearly from each and every thread we can see this IS the motivation) then lets see the meat.
Otherwise sit down and shut up, you're making yourself more of a joke and its really quite sad. Acknowledge this - I can say whatever I like on the matter because I have NOTHING to prove, I don't care what people do on their servers because I will play at the ones I like. I don't care what you think because you have absolutely zero impact on my servers, on my life, or on my gaming. You are nothing, and the vast bulk of the community feel exactly the same deep down.
You think you're all that? You know better? Then cmon, lets see it. Lets see your perfect server, with a thriving community, no tards, and no 2 yr olds running loose in OT or GD making whine/spam threads. You come back to us then, maybe we'll listen. Up to that point, heh, you're just a 5 minute comedy post on a 17 page thread.
If nothing else, consider the words of Milton - Better to reign in Hell than serve in Heaven.
Edit - Didn't want 5ky to think I was ripping on him directly, changed the wording to make it more obvious that I address a hypothetical "group".
<!--QuoteBegin-Quaunaut+Nov 9 2004, 06:58 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Quaunaut @ Nov 9 2004, 06:58 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> First off, LB has managed more servers than most in this community. If he says adminmod has a problem with it, <b>admin mod has a problem with it.</b> Spaces, if you didn't know, screw up a lot of things anyway. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Quaunaut I like you, you're a good bloke but please think about what you said.
I have at least 6 screenshots from different maps of entities and sections of maps deleted by adminmod on Lunixmonster. Its always fun to know you can't get to somewhere on the map without a lot of extra hassle, if at all, thanks to the ignorance of admins. adminmod has been breaking maps since it was created many years ago but pointing this out to LB gets you either ignored or banned (usually both).
A couple of instances which couldn't be captured in a screenshot you may have experienced yourself. On ns_caged the right hand func_ladder from Purification Station into Sewer Hive is regularly missing. I'm sure the marines enjoy having the normal routes which the mapper intended taken away from them (gorges & onos too I guess) because a server side plugin likes to randomly remove things from the map. Oh what fun it is to try & assault that hive when you're forced to use a single tight coridoor. On the combat map with the hive that looks like engine on bast (can't remember the name because I don't play much combat) one of the trigger_multiples for the doors in the upper area was deleted on the marine side forcing the marines to use the dark lower area to get to the hive. good game aliens win.
Nada had a great point. Education is needed to defeat ignorance but it only works if the people you're trying to educate actually want to learn. Like you said a lot of the regs/res slotters, who were the reason I kept returning to LM, are leaving these days.
We reap what we sow.
P.S. Necrosis if you're going to keep on posting 4 page essays on this thread I think people might listen to what you're saying if you actually played NS at all.
I'd say that server still has no obligation to the community. Hell, they would still be adding more to the community than most. These people are paying out of their own pocket to fund their own community and enjoy the game their way. Why should they stop that because apparently all new players are sheeple without brains easily led by the opinions of people on there? I could understand if these gorge-dancers were pitching in for server costs, but other than that, I can't see people paying a good chunk of cash for a community changing their core ideals to satisfy a minority of a playerbase. Sounds odd.
I'm not asking for admins to lift their bans on certain things, I'm not asking for them to accept or tolerate anything, I'm just asking for some common decency. Is it really such an invasion of their rights to request that they NOT badmouth scr....err....gorgedancing to everyone that frequents the server? Even on the message boards, is there any need to have such closemindedness? We've already seen examples of the ignorance and idiocy displayed in links from this thread to other message boards. Surprisingly, the debate in this thread has remained flame-free and (most of the time) logical for 17+ pages, which is something to be proud of, IMO. It's an idealistic goal, indeed, to promote an open-minded attitude (see the beginning of my last post), but that doesn't make it wrong to try. At the very least, call what I say unrealistic, rather than arguing about servers' rights. Promoting a good attitude and acceptance is not even close to infringing on a server's rights, so get over that argument. A server has the right to do anything to the players on his server that he wants, but admins definitely don't have the right to badmouth ANY group of people in the first place, let alone to a group of impressionable newbies, when the group they're blamming has no chance to voice their side (either because they're llamaed or kicked.....)
I don't think you quite get what I'm saying, because I'm actually saying that they do. You are right, it <b>is</b> idealistic. In a world where money matters, a person paying for a community has to right to badmouth whoever he wants as much as he wants within that community. There is absolutely zero obligation whatsoever to accept outside ideas, or to not be "ignorant". What that means is that these gorge-dancers are going to have to take steps to appeal to those insulting them, and realise that if those steps are rejected they will have to either stop gorge-dancing or live with the horrible shame of being yelled at online. Or, of course, pay for their own communities and ban anyone who hates gorge-dancing and complains about it. In the meantime, I'll trust the newbies to think for themselves.
alias Medpack "impulse 10;say_team [- Health Commander! -];impulse 10" alias Ammunition "impulse 11;say_team [- Ammo Commander! -];impulse 11"
alias nextwep "invnext;+attack;wait;-attack" alias prevwep "invprev;+attack;wait;-attack"<!--c2--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--ec2-->
^^ The only Scripts you ever need for marine period <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Those of you that understand, will see that these are directly out of a config.cfg and not created on some elite hax program.
On the subject of Pistol Scripting, the simple bind of attack to mousewheel gives the same effect, OR now here is the clincher, hold the mouse still and hammer LMB. Both not difficult . (first one works for bunny hop too, obviously binding mwheel to jump)
I am dissapointed in NS as it is at the moment, after playing since NS 1.0 until NSP 2.1 (when I moved house and lost internet for a year <!--emo&:angry:--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html//emoticons/mad-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='mad-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> ) returning was a shock to the system, those who knew me, or knew of me aren't the problem, its the new generation of them who seem to know everything and nothing.
You want real teamplay? Play a game where your commander give 0 waypoints and pull it off, thats clan play friends <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Also how can you reject the lone marine in aliens hive, he is in the BEST possition on the map, give him a phase gate, spam shotguns, win!
What they really want to sort out is the ability to "fix" your rates so that your hit reg is off slightly (many people dont believe things like this is possible, forgive me if it is me that is missinformed).
But all that is way off topic, just wanted to sort that stuff out.
I do believe there is alot of ignorance on these subjects, Scripts like what I show here are extremely simple to do, any monkey with half a brain can do them. There is no real advantage, its convenience, for instance; some keyboards cant press many buttons at once or the PC will beep at you, in my case i couldn't press "Forward, Left, Jump and change weapon" so i made the script so that the mousewheel will change them without me having to press fire to select the next one.
The other aspect discussed is the dissmissal that ANYONE is better than the publics, well if you like to think so then so be it, just remember when you are calling that guy who is killing you 100 times hax that you MUST be correct because you are the pinnacle of NS gamers.
Thank you, goodnight.
*EDIT* Meant to say, those of u on the forums that remember me, will know that I have done thing the community, I have tryed to make a map, although it didnt go well, I did get alot of praise for my efforts (topic will still be arround somewhere) ALSO I was the kickstart to the NS 1.05 Unofficial patch, combining the metamods that seemed closest to NS 1.1 into a semi requirement. I payed Flayra for NS long before the announcement of "Constellation will PT NS 2.1"
<!--QuoteBegin-Necrosis+Nov 9 2004, 08:30 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Necrosis @ Nov 9 2004, 08:30 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Following post really goes out to whoever thinks it applies to them. Most of the real community will skim this or realise that it doesn't apply to them. Its not in my nature for personal attacks, so I use "you" as a sweeping generalisation of everyone who thinks the nub army are oppressing them. I do receive PM's and I do reply, so if anyone thinks they can have a civil conversation then roll on into my Inbox. If you just rant about how you're right, yet put forth no real proof (and smacktard comments like "I've been playing X years" don't cut it folks, tbh you could play this game your entire life and that'd still make some people a tard) then I *will* be deploying the ignorehammer.
Also bear in mind my great love for the community and the fact that there's nothing I'd like better than a nice clean forum without tards who should KNOW BETTER persistently clogging up the works.
Is your coffee boiled? Got a biscuit? Then sit down and read this like a Bremner sketch (or alternatively SNL) - no hate here except for the ignorant.
Crisano's A-B-C post has nothing to do with how people choose to spend their money, 5kyh16h.
If you believe certain servers are havens of idiots, then with my blessing I tell you to MAKE YOUR OWN. If its great, it will catch in. If your ideas are as dumb and idiotic (as you seem to think certain servers are) then people will not go to your server.
Of course, anyone who has an empty server will always be quick to claim "noone can handle my leet server rules". We all know what that means though, don't we.
Facts are facts, people will not play on crap servers. You can't dress it up any other way. Server ops pay good coin to ensure that they get to game the way they like it - none of us are any different. If anyone is feeling shortchanged, make their own server. Make their own mod. Whatever. You have a snowball in hell's chance of forcing someone to fork out their cash in order to run a server thats NOT the way they like it. A lot of server ops will take into consideration the requests of their community, but they are by no means obliged to.
If we attempt to bring this in line with the A-B-C then you'll note that the door swings both ways - all you need to do is get some friends and run your own server. As I've said, if its any good you'll grow a community, and from there you can try to increase your numbers. If people think your rules are dumb, your server will die, and you will have unequivocal proof that you are a minority.
I address this openly to anyone who feels that they know better - don't whine, don't make claims, pull your finger out and DO IT. Make a better server, get a bigger community.
As for this purported clanner-pubber gap, its not encouraged by serverside switches, or balance tweaks, its encouraged by the COMMUNITY. If people act like tards in servers, then people who play in those servers will associate those people with that behaviour. Anyone who stands up and says "that guys not a tard!" is instantly signing up to their banner and puts himself closer to the same flag.
Consider, I join a server, I act like a noob, tell the admins their rules are dumb, and demand explanations for why I should follow their rules. I get banned, and rightly so. Anyone who then sides with me will take on a portion of my tard behaviour, until the point where anyone who says "Nec was right" effectively says "I'm a tard too".
Newsflash - the man who pays the money does not have to justify his rules to you. You don't like them, bugger off. Jump off a cliff. People don't pay money for some immature brat with a grudge to bounce on their server, ignore half the rules, then turn round and backchat the admin as to why they should follow them.
You do that on ANY server, for ANY game, and you are heading for a ban. Wouldn't need to think twice. I defy anyone to say otherwise. If a new player joined a more experienced server and did dumb things, is he going to be educated? If he asks why he should have to do things your way, do you sit the little guy down and explain to him? If he gets in the CC, do you explain to him that your server doesn't like noobs in the chair? Doesn't like noobs dropping dumb chambers as gorge?
No, I tell you what you do, you ban him. And why not? He doesn't understand the rules, your motd said no noobs in the chair, your server name was GK426's NO NOOBS SERVOR, and yet he still came in! He's obviously and idiot, so lets ban him.
Consider now when a player enters a server with a "no consonants in your name" rule. He sees it in the motd, he's aware of the rules, yet he keeps the consonants in his name. Clearly, this man is an idiot. You could ban him on the spot. Instead you give him a friendly warning. His reply "Yeah I read the rules, they suck".
What would you do next? Whack him with a ban. Again, I double dare ANYONE to say that they would enter a dialogue with a griefer. What does our banned griefer do? He adds your name to his list in Notepad and then in every thread he makes, he'll mention your server's name as part of the Axis of Terror.
The majority of people will just laugh at the little tantrum child, especially when its clearly dumb enough to say "ogm I broke the rules of this server and got banned, how dare they, DON'T THEY KNOW WHO I AM". Frankly, noone cares who you are. There's plenty of people queuing up for the server, why worry about some child who knowingly broke the rules?
The issue at hand is not scripts, hacks, cheats, customs, etc, its about a small group of people who are blindingly convinced of their own superiority that they can see no other way. If they had any money, or intelligence, they'd be running their own server, happily educating the interested in how to play the game. Or, possibly, they'd be sitting on an empty server whining about how all those noobs won't join their leet server. Its a slap in the face that some people desperately need.
Realise that there are BIGGER things in this world, and your sole opinion will not influence them. You do not pay for it, you are not entitled to it, noone is obliged to provide it to you.
IF YOU DO NOT LIKE IT, MAKE YOUR OWN.
I want to look back on 5kyh16h's comment, which was
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> but the second you start to propogate an attitude that detrimentally affects all players everywhere <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I reply to this, but direct it to the group as a whole, I'm not singling ONE person out. Do you not think that that moment is when a small jumped up group of infants decides that they know better than the entire community? The servers have spoken, the players have spoken. Ranting in a thread about how everyone should bow to you is an exercise in futility.
What I find quite funny is that a smaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaall tiny group of children are bleating about a switch that they can change on their own server. Why force their views on others? Ironic they accuse so many of their own crime. Is it not easier, more acceptable, more tolerable, for them to make their own server? Invite people to play with them? Why must the people paying hard cash for their servers be forced to change just because some people can't find a "good" game?
The issue isn't about switches, its about people too cheap to fork out a small amount of money to run a server. People who would willingly admit to joining servers, fully aware of the rules, and then breaking them. Silly silly people. Here's a more fruitful exercise, run up to a local law enforcement official and kick him in the nuts. When he "exercises reasonable force" in restraining you from assaulting an officer of the law, turn round and tell him his laws are dumb.
I bet most people would say "Move to a different country then, tard".
Silly silly children. Crying babies get more attention. Once you get to a certain age, most of us realise whining will not help, noone will come to clean your bottom, talc it, and give you a new nappy. People will laugh and point at the man who pooed his pants. If you've any wit, you would know better. Lead by example, put your money on the line. Griefing people who are paying money to run a server is NOT a good way to get support. Griefing servers will make you look like a tard. Go into a server and KNOWINGLY break the rules and you will soon become very well known as "that nubtard who totally ignored our rules then told us they were dumb". If you don't listen to nubtards, then why do you think anyone else is going to listen to you? Who are you anyway? Some text on a forum messageboard? You think anyone cares?
This is reality Greg. You get a group of people, you make it work, and others will listen. Otherwise you may as well put on a placard, grab a megaphone, and sit outside city hall telling everyone your viewpoints until the police haul you off.
Put your money where your mouth is folks, you make your own server. Record your stats, let everyone see how popular you are. Let everyone know how many tards you had to ban because they wouldn't read the rules. I'd like to see it. It'd be an example and it would inspire others to do the same, and then NS would be like EVERY OTHER GAMING COMMUNITY where people run their OWN servers with their OWN decisions on switches. If your server is empty, then the people have spoken - you suck.
As a sort of epilogue to this post, consider that you are the MINORITY, and that as such you will need to be LIKED or at least TOLERATED in order to get people on your side. Griefing won't help. Having a grudge list of servers, mods, players whom you MUST name in every thread won't help either. Derailing threads by bringing up your personal crusade won't help. Sure, you'll attract 3 or 4 other grannies but you'll still end up looking like Mary Whitehouse. If you want to prove how RIGHT you are (and clearly from each and every thread we can see this IS the motivation) then lets see the meat.
Otherwise sit down and shut up, you're making yourself more of a joke and its really quite sad. Acknowledge this - I can say whatever I like on the matter because I have NOTHING to prove, I don't care what people do on their servers because I will play at the ones I like. I don't care what you think because you have absolutely zero impact on my servers, on my life, or on my gaming. You are nothing, and the vast bulk of the community feel exactly the same deep down.
You think you're all that? You know better? Then cmon, lets see it. Lets see your perfect server, with a thriving community, no tards, and no 2 yr olds running loose in OT or GD making whine/spam threads. You come back to us then, maybe we'll listen. Up to that point, heh, you're just a 5 minute comedy post on a 17 page thread.
If nothing else, consider the words of Milton - Better to reign in Hell than serve in Heaven.
Edit - Didn't want 5ky to think I was ripping on him directly, changed the wording to make it more obvious that I address a hypothetical "group". <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Dude don't you get it?
This is YOUR community, if you want to uranite all over it, then it WILL COME BACK TO HAUNT YOU TOO!
I can tell your mentality; it's capitalist. Don't get me wrong, I <3 <3 capitalism! I love it's philsophies and it's beliefs. You may think you are following a capitalist mentality but you aren't!
If you were truely concerned about running a kickarse server then it's in your best intrests to promote the gameplay, the skill level, AND educate the masses about fallacies!
Every person that the LM community (or some other backwater community) manages to turn away from the clan community; this translates to 20 other people who may have brought more people to your server.
You may THINK that it's not your obligation to help out and you can keep feeding the masses all the crap you want, but the truth is straight from spyder man (lol can't believe I'm quoting this):
"With great power, comes great responsibility."
Hey, you wanna claim that you can abuse clanners all you want; go for it dude it's your own community (the same one me and you are in) that you are killing.
By the way, your entire example is reinforced ignorance; you promote the idea you need not to help others but simply leech off the system, and others accept this as fact.
Here's a fact, this logical fallacy of only taking care of yourself has been around forever, and always proven wrong.
That's a logical fallacy. "It's my server, so I can run it how I want." This is one of the most basic logical fallcies known to mankind. It's the same old story where the hero realizes his power and saves the day instead of ignoring it. The truth is if you keep spreading ignorance then it's going to accelerate your death. Do you really want that?
By the way, we can see this logical fallacy done throughout history:
- Hack and Burn farming. Burning down the foilage, then the burned crops provide nutrients to the ground. In turn you plant crops and have a killer season. Too bad it takes another 5 years after to re-use the farm land. But hey, just keep moving on to other farm lands, right? After NS is dead, the lunixmonster can move to another game to leech a community from.
- Slander. Slander is illegal in the United States. Even our founding fathers saw that you could not have people spread lies about each other without destroying the community. And the founding fathers were huge believers of allowing factions to flourish too.
- Pearl Harbor. The United States said, "We just need to take care of ourselves, and we will be fine..." and where did that take them? WW2 would have easily been prevented without people with your mentality necrosis. And today the USA is the world police because they learned the hard way they will eventually be the targets of other countries!
Now, I'm just going to enlarge this because it's a long post and I want to catch some attention to an important point:
<span style='font-size:21pt;line-height:100%'>Anyone who says "It's my server therefore I can run it <b>however</b> I want to." clearly does not care two craps about the NS community, except for their own exclusive community.</span>
Sounds like the best answer is to get the clanners to make clan pub servers, and make it famious that its a great place to learn. thus breeding out the old.
like the gorgedance anology. what happened if someone made a newbie server that encouraged gorgedacning? you would basicly be building a force to recon with the other. The one with the more people beliving gorgedancing is okay and good. the more people you have spreading the word. thus aliviating, or help aleviating the wide spreed fire that is ignorance.
So far both sides have vallid points....But this is not a black and white topic. its more gray than some realize. and the answer is in the grey areas.
I know of a server that used to ban anyone that played better than them. at one point they become unpopular untill a select few helped inprove the server and now its rather popular.
<!--QuoteBegin-Forlon+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Forlon)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->"It's my server therefore I can run it however I want to."<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It used to even have that adituide and it become unpopular because of it. now its alot better by reworking the system and we get some amazingly fun games now. which inturn made more people join
Ooops, I blatantly ignored the use of "gorgedancing" in my reply <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/confused-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
NOTE: I am not an admin of the G4B2S servers, my word is not an official comment coming from them. I am, however a donator to those servers and I have a vested interest in this.
Firstly, to all teh people who do this: I don't appreciate you lumping all pubbers into 1 giant category. We are not all ignorant as you think. We do not all res****, we do not all rambo. Many of us have good understanding of tactics and strategy. Do not take the couple of WORST PLAYERS form the WORST GAMES and apply all their WORST TRAITS to all pubbers. Yes, all these ancedotes are fine, but realize that all these are just the worst experiences peopel have had. No-one will tell you about the time the team listened to teh com, or the time the aliens didn't res **** and got that hive up in 3-4 mins, as well as put up and defended thier rts.
Nadagast: Yes, people will yell SCRIPTS and HACKER, but you forget to mention that alot of people on the server defended you as well.
Nadagast: Now to the main point you put up about the scripts. WE KNOW WHAT THEY ARE. WE KNOW WHAT THEY DO. From the words of admins on that server, we choose to disallow them because we cater to the general public. Not everyone is good enough so scripts dont' mean much at all. I know the overhyped blink-swipe script actaully sucks badly to any player who knows how to fade decently. We prefer that people not be lazy and use such scripts to become a mediocre fade, or use a triple-jump to help bunny hop. We know scripts cannot replace skill. But we prefer that you do nto use scripts to help you do things like bunnyhop, and prefer that if you want to bunnyhop, you do it yourself, with your own skill, and not get aid from a script.
Nadagast: In addition, you kept stating repeatedly that scripts were A CONVENIENCE. Teh only other things you kept doing were trying to prove we were ignorant about scripting. I know most scripting is harmless, but it being "convenient" to have scripts was NOT seen as a good enough reason to enable scripts.
In fact, having mp_blockscripts enabled allows people to immeadiately shoot down all those pubbers you seem to have a problem with. They yell SCRIPTOR, and we just tell them blockscripts is enabled. It creates a better and more fun environment.
The clanner hate from most of the pubbers comes from the the fact some clanners/vets go on server and immeadiately disregard everything they preach, and then bad-mouth the team for not being able to aim, or placing ocs. They rambo, and they might get some insane K:D ratio and kill lots of alien rts, but they dont' listen to the com either, and they they put on a I'm better than all you guys. "Look, I killed 30 of them and only died 5 times, and took out 4 rts. Why cant' you guys help me here?" That comes across are being very arrogant and being a total ****.
I know not all clanners do that, but the few who do make a bad impression. It's the same with pubbers. The few who call hacks or scripts every time someone with skill comes on gives a bad name to pubbers.
Nadagast: In addition, we are open minded. We reopened the topic for you to state your views. But you didn't seem to try to see it from our side either. It's a pub that we run. We cater to the general pub audience. You didnt' state any reasons how unblocking scripts would benefit our community/servers. We stated that having it enabled would benefit pubbers, because they could play and see that scripts didnt' increase skill. And not have to bother doing all that in-depth research into scripts to satisfy thier minds, when some of them only play a couple hours a week. In our view, blocking scripts has made the server more public friendly, and has furthered our goals.
To the people bad-mouthing admins on servers, and showing the "idiocy" of thier forms. I could point out many, many instances of indiocy on these forums. Take your time to get to know the community before juding it from a few topics. As for the admins, get to know teh admins better to. If the server constantly has admins abusing thier power, then find a new one.
I know for certain that G4B2S tries thier best to stop admins from abusing thier power. We had a problem with one admin before, but by taking it to the head admin, it was solved quickly. As well, some of it is all in good fun. Like some of our admins will start building alien tfs and alien ips and alien turrets when teh aliens have clearly lost. Yes, it's hacking the game, but it's funny. And the aliens have nothign better to do while the marines take thier time setting up seiges and such. Giving a JP to teh last marine alive so he can try to run it also entertaining. Some people lose sight of teh fact that this is a game, and even if you play competitively, you should play to have fun.
<!--QuoteBegin-Cypher-+Nov 9 2004, 07:06 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Cypher- @ Nov 9 2004, 07:06 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> During 1.0x eve, cri, and ReD all came to the server I always played on all the time quite a bit.
I hated those guys.
The Cri guys were always killing everyone, spawncamping, and LMGing the hive to death, the eve guys were always ramboing and killing everyone, then spawncamping. The ReD guys, well, we all just hated mulock. During 2.0x I went around hating anyone with a vet tag. anyone who came around doing really well and trying to tell everyone that they were wrong was stupid... And redline, from old EpX... he would always bhop around and go crazy fast, eventually someone talked about how they "had that script too." from then on scripts were the devil, and they played for you.
keep in mind that I had played on the same server from 1.0x to 2.01 or so... so pretty much anyone who came into the "bubble" was shunned, if they were a vet
eventually during 3.0 beta I joined Sphere, and we made it to the CAL omega playoffs... and we were always scrimming and such... It was great because I had played with almost every person in the clan since 1.04 or 2.0... Azkar told me all about different clan stuff, since he was in BAH in the earlier season. I got scripts for myself and learned how to bhop... and finally when I started pubbing during the more laid back parts of the season, and after it ended.
All the comms were terrible, getting weapons 1 first, not handing out shotties, just doing retarded mistakes that could easily be cured if someone just talked to them. So, I tried, but they wouldnt listen to me... I had the clan tag on along with a few others in the server.
Eventually I just got fed up with having everyone in the pub server having no idea what they're doing, and not listening to anyone about anything... The other day someone said I speedhacked, since I was moving my mouse in "odd" ways while jumping, and jumping of other slopes and such... speedhacking... "exploiting the **** out of the engine"
just like I used to be...
... anyway... Im just supporting the fact that once you get in a clan, everything is just so much clearer, i myself am an example... it happened to me...
edit: pubbing, not pugging <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> read this guy's post again everyone...
His story is true for everyone I've seen who's made the conversion from pubber to clanner. Things just get much clearer... you learn a lot more about the game. I know I myself learned a lot more in my first week clanning than all my months pubbing.
<!--QuoteBegin-Nadagast+Nov 10 2004, 04:26 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Nadagast @ Nov 10 2004, 04:26 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Cypher-+Nov 9 2004, 07:06 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Cypher- @ Nov 9 2004, 07:06 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> During 1.0x eve, cri, and ReD all came to the server I always played on all the time quite a bit.
I hated those guys.
The Cri guys were always killing everyone, spawncamping, and LMGing the hive to death, the eve guys were always ramboing and killing everyone, then spawncamping. The ReD guys, well, we all just hated mulock. During 2.0x I went around hating anyone with a vet tag. anyone who came around doing really well and trying to tell everyone that they were wrong was stupid... And redline, from old EpX... he would always bhop around and go crazy fast, eventually someone talked about how they "had that script too." from then on scripts were the devil, and they played for you.
keep in mind that I had played on the same server from 1.0x to 2.01 or so... so pretty much anyone who came into the "bubble" was shunned, if they were a vet
eventually during 3.0 beta I joined Sphere, and we made it to the CAL omega playoffs... and we were always scrimming and such... It was great because I had played with almost every person in the clan since 1.04 or 2.0... Azkar told me all about different clan stuff, since he was in BAH in the earlier season. I got scripts for myself and learned how to bhop... and finally when I started pubbing during the more laid back parts of the season, and after it ended.
All the comms were terrible, getting weapons 1 first, not handing out shotties, just doing retarded mistakes that could easily be cured if someone just talked to them. So, I tried, but they wouldnt listen to me... I had the clan tag on along with a few others in the server.
Eventually I just got fed up with having everyone in the pub server having no idea what they're doing, and not listening to anyone about anything... The other day someone said I speedhacked, since I was moving my mouse in "odd" ways while jumping, and jumping of other slopes and such... speedhacking... "exploiting the **** out of the engine"
just like I used to be...
... anyway... Im just supporting the fact that once you get in a clan, everything is just so much clearer, i myself am an example... it happened to me...
edit: pubbing, not pugging <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> read this guy's post again everyone...
His story is true for everyone I've seen who's made the conversion from pubber to clanner. Things just get much clearer... you learn a lot more about the game. I know I myself learned a lot more in my first week clanning than all my months pubbing. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> That is because you have to, if you don't then you and your clan will fail, or call themself "Fun" clans (my definition would be a clan who has the attitude of non clanners, enters into leagues just for the hell of it, loses and reports the winning clan to the league admins) : YOU KNOW WHO YOU ARE <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
*EDIT* Don't get me wrong, I do understand why these clans exist. Its more of an expantion of a public community than a clan.
When on a server I do not belittle anyone, or put them down if i see them as being less skilled (for want of different words) than the rest. If a commanders plan goes wrong, I don't start screaming "N00b COMM" down the mic or spam it on chat. If an alien game is looking bad, i'll try to give my input to resolve the problem, like "Instead of everyone going to save the hive, and dieing, 3 of us go get marine start, one get obs one get PG and one get arms lab". If people are looking to blame someone for the mess the game is in, I will attempt to calm the situation down, I don't mention names, I'll simply say "Someone did X, someone else did X" thats what happened (although I have had some guys start abusing me saying that i said what they did was wrong... I wasn't wanting to point fingers at that point they pointed a big one at their self then). If an when I see an oppertunity I will take hold of it, that WILL mean being a lone marine, but with the possibility of ending the game 5 minutes later, unless i am discovered. Stealth is an important aspect of the marine game, and 7 marine together isn't going to be stealthy, im sorry, teamplay isn't routed in teamwork, but in syncronised multiple location attacks.
I honestly don't know if there is a rolleyes emoticon on the internet big enough to express what I am feeling right now, Forlorn. The "teeming ignorant masses" can educate themselves. These are not mindless idiots, but are people with brains. With these brains, they can think for themselves. You are a fool if you think that pubbers are this big group of people that need guidance from some figure or community. All you can do is present the facts and they can decide for <b>THEMSELVES</b>.
It's good and all to blame pubbing communities for the trouble the clan scene is having (Evil ignorant communities converting the poor uneducated mindless pubbers by the dozens everyday! Stop them!), but you might want to take a look at what is being offered, and if people want to take it. Apparently, clan play is not the pinnacle of gaming, is not the end-all playstyle that everyone just <b>has</b> to get involved in, or else it would be doing better. People are seeing what these competitive communities have to offer, and they aren't being impressed enough to go ahead and join. Many are probably getting all they want already.
The arguments and facts you are presenting obviously aren't enough to change people's minds. Are they just blind jackasses unable to see the brilliance in what you are saying, or are you simply giving your own views way too much importance? I'm getting a strong feeling of "It's so unbeatable they have to agree with it, or they are ignorant!" coming off alot of what you say. An attitude like that isn't going to help you or anyone else's cause out much, imho.
People are seeing what these competitive communities have to offer, and they aren't being impressed enough to go ahead and join. Many are probably getting all they want already. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Maybe they believe in arrogance that they are truely above clan play, maybe they aren't impressed, or maybe they are intimidated by it, having a lack of confidence in their self.
Seems to me however alot of the pubbers are in CS clans, and use NS as a side game, so arent looking for a clan in NS at all, and being from CS we then get "h4x", "n00b", "script0r" and countless other ways to justify themself getting killed by someone else.
<!--QuoteBegin-Gecko God Of DOOOM+Nov 9 2004, 10:01 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Gecko God Of DOOOM @ Nov 9 2004, 10:01 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> like the gorgedance anology. what happened if someone made a newbie server that encouraged gorgedacning? you would basicly be building a force to recon with the other. The one with the more people beliving gorgedancing is okay and good. the more people you have spreading the word. thus aliviating, or help aleviating the wide spreed fire that is ignorance.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> That would be perfect! There would be balance, both sides would be heard, etc. Unfortunately in my hypothetical world, no one had bothered to set up a "pro-gorgedance" server, because unlike the one server that banned battlegorges, no one else even thought about it much <!--emo&:0--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wow.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wow.gif' /><!--endemo--> . The issue "Is gorgedancing cheating" first came up when players that based their views of the game on the opinions of that one server's admins; before that, no one really gave a crap.
And yes, gorgedancing and battlegorging were just used to replace scripting in my little analogy. It wasn't about the act debated, it was about players' reactions to it.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->So far both sides have vallid points....But this is not a black and white topic. its more gray than some realize. and the answer is in the grey areas.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Isn't it always *rollseyes*....
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-Forlon+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Forlon)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->"It's my server therefore I can run it however I want to."<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It used to even have that adituide and it become unpopular because of it. now its alot better by reworking the system and we get some amazingly fun games now. which inturn made more people join<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> psst, that's not Forlorn's opinion, that was Necrotic's <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
And Forlorn, bigger fonts don't get your point across better. <!--emo&::marine::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/marine.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='marine.gif' /><!--endemo-->
btw "gorgedancing" is basically battlegorging with style. Bunnyhopping + spitting + using obstacles to run out their clip, etc.
[edit] And Ness, remember, there is quite a difference from having apathy with clan members (not being one myself I really shouldn't care about simple apathy) and outright hating on clan members. You can hate on individuals, you might even be able to hate on entire clans, but the very fact that people hate clanners enough to call the entire group hackers and cheaters is very very bad. Do you see such outcries in any other mod? No, clanners are actually respected in most other games (at least the well-known, non-sucky clans...). So it's not just a question of "clanners vs. pubs" either, there's something unique about NS - or about NS servers - that is causing this problem.
It's a product of both sides sucking, really. Some clan members are just a <i>tad</i> elitist, some pub server admins and/or veterans are just a <i>tad</i> biased against them, and neither side is really willing to admit the other might actually have a valid position.
<!--QuoteBegin-Kobayashi+Nov 9 2004, 10:21 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Kobayashi @ Nov 9 2004, 10:21 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Nadagast: Yes, people will yell SCRIPTS and HACKER, but you forget to mention that alot of people on the server defended you as well. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yes, but I was banned, and my play on G4B2S isn't what this post is about really. It's more about how you guys lock my thread about mp_bs on your forums. It's not even about wether mp_bs is good or not, it's about you guys refusing to view the evidence.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Firstly, to all teh people who do this: I don't appreciate you lumping all pubbers into 1 giant category. We are not all ignorant as you think. We do not all res****, we do not all rambo. Many of us have good understanding of tactics and strategy. Do not take the couple of WORST PLAYERS form the WORST GAMES and apply all their WORST TRAITS to all pubbers. Yes, all these ancedotes are fine, but realize that all these are just the worst experiences peopel have had. No-one will tell you about the time the team listened to teh com, or the time the aliens didn't res **** and got that hive up in 3-4 mins, as well as put up and defended thier rts.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Nobody is lumping pubbers together, I've always tried to say 'some' before anything I say that can be considered a generalisation.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Nadagast: Now to the main point you put up about the scripts. WE KNOW WHAT THEY ARE. WE KNOW WHAT THEY DO. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> NO. YOU DON'T. Do I need to bring quotes from the G4B2S forums that explicitly show this? I know Hieyeck explicitly thinks that a script that bunny hops for you exists. He also believes wallstrafing is an exploit. If you knew what they were, you guys would've been able to make a coherent response to my thread instead of "SCRIPT BAD, CLOSE THREAD." (no offense) This insane anti-script thing is ridiculous. Look at this everyone: <a href='http://guns4back2school.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=7073' target='_blank'>http://guns4back2school.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=7073</a> The guy posts a thread about scripts that work with mp_bs 1, and are totally fair, and in no way unbalance gameplay. It is locked because "SCRIPT BAD, CLOSE THREAD." Please, tell me you know something about scripts? I don't believe it. I've since asked fubu to play some pugs and maybe join the clan scene. It seems he would be far better off here than there.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->From the words of admins on that server, we choose to disallow them because we cater to the general public. Not everyone is good enough so scripts dont' mean much at all. I know the overhyped blink-swipe script actaully sucks badly to any player who knows how to fade decently. We prefer that people not be lazy and use such scripts to become a mediocre fade, or use a triple-jump to help bunny hop. We know scripts cannot replace skill. But we prefer that you do nto use scripts to help you do things like bunnyhop, and prefer that if you want to bunnyhop, you do it yourself, with your own skill, and not get aid from a script.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> You don't know what scripts do. The end. Your points are all moot. I even made a huge post explaining EXACTLY what a 3jump does and you guys reply "SCRIPT BAD," with the exact same vigor. Hero (don't make me go get quotes) just kept spouting off the same "we feel scripts are unfair, the player should press each key himself, not have it automated," even AFTER my huge long post. He literally just kept saying it! I guess if he keeps saying it, it might come true? BTW, like I SAID ALREADY in the huge post, it's not possible to bhop in a real server (fps and lag varying) w/o mwheel or 3jump. It's not replacing skill, it's ADDING a skill level to the game.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Nadagast: In addition, you kept stating repeatedly that scripts were A CONVENIENCE. Teh only other things you kept doing were trying to prove we were ignorant about scripting. I know most scripting is harmless, but it being "convenient" to have scripts was NOT seen as a good enough reason to enable scripts.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I repeatedly stated that SOME (ok every script in existance except 2) SCRIPTS are a convenience. Like SOME FOOD is bagels, some is hamburgers. We've already been over this. If my argument is true: Scripts aren't bad, then WHY NOT turn off mp_bs? I don't understand. Like I've said 3 times before: mp_bs 0 would dominate mp_bs 1.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->In fact, having mp_blockscripts enabled allows people to immeadiately shoot down all those pubbers you seem to have a problem with. They yell SCRIPTOR, and we just tell them blockscripts is enabled. It creates a better and more fun environment.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> How ironic. The lack of education of the players justifies the lack of education by the admins? I don't think so. Turn off mp_bs and tell your players that scripts aren't bad (tell them to go read a guide if they disagree). It's that simple.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The clanner hate from most of the pubbers comes from the the fact some clanners/vets go on server and immeadiately disregard everything they preach, and then bad-mouth the team for not being able to aim, or placing ocs. They rambo, and they might get some insane K:D ratio and kill lots of alien rts, but they dont' listen to the com either, and they they put on a I'm better than all you guys. "Look, I killed 30 of them and only died 5 times, and took out 4 rts. Why cant' you guys help me here?" That comes across are being very arrogant and being a total ****.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Oh GOD FORBID someone asks the team to not drop OCs. They are totally arrogant. How is this different from random person Y coming on the server and saying the exact same thing? Oh right they have a vet tag, so you can stereotype them. NICE. Like I've said before: Don't hate a group because a few of them are ****. Hate the individual. Also you realize that 90% of the clan tags I see on pubs are just random tags, clans who aren't in CAL, on IRC, and never scrim. Clans with 2 buddies in them. FURTHER, you realize that, a few months ago, any random 6 people with an e-mail address could get veteran right? I think your point is pretty much moot.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I know not all clanners do that, but the few who do make a bad impression. It's the same with pubbers. The few who call hacks or scripts every time someone with skill comes on gives a bad name to pubbers.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> It's not the "few" who call hacks or scripts. It's the "many." I was banned from your server and I believe I've had as many as 9 people spectating me at once. I'm fairly sure that at least 10 total man hours have been logged of speccing me on your server. Just face it, pubbers and admins alike are not good at determining wether a clanner is hacking or not... after all, we come from a different world. I'm not blaming you, just HAVE SOME RESPECT. If someone is in a CAL-Delta clan, they most likely do not cheat. It's the inability to respect CAL or learn from past mistakes that I have a problem with. It happens on almost every pub.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Nadagast: In addition, we are open minded. We reopened the topic for you to state your views. But you didn't seem to try to see it from our side either. It's a pub that we run. We cater to the general pub audience. You didnt' state any reasons how unblocking scripts would benefit our community/servers. We stated that having it enabled would benefit pubbers, because they could play and see that scripts didnt' increase skill. And not have to bother doing all that in-depth research into scripts to satisfy thier minds, when some of them only play a couple hours a week. In our view, blocking scripts has made the server more public friendly, and has furthered our goals.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> You re-opened the topic after I made this 10+ page post... and you re-locked it after nothing happened. I do try to see it from your side. However, when you make arguments that are as weak as "script bad! it does things for you!" I can't really be swayed. Not to mention the fact that you guys repeatedly and doggedly ignore any evidence I present in favor of scripting. What, the most educated and most skilled community in the game is all for scripts? BAH. What, the biggest and most competetive NS league is all for scripts? Means nothing. What, every single pubber who has converted to clanner is now adamantly pro-script? WHO CARES?
The fact is, if you guys even had a clue as to what scripts can/cannot do, there'd be a chance I would be swayed by your arguments. However, the thread makes it clear to me that you guys just <b>do. not. know.</b> Not only that, you refuse to listen. Before you say no, SEE HIEYECK'S reply, after my big post. He says, and I quote: <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Take me as an example: Just as a skulk, i know i'm fairly good if i get up close - i can wipe out 5 marines in a pack, but i also know that when coming down long corridors (i'm usually already in teh red if i get that close and only manage to kill about 2 marines), i'm not the best at evading. now wouldn't you fell gipped if i loaded a bhop script (or your 3jump) and closed the distance in half the time? its not a skill i earned by practicing, but it sure made me at least 200% more effective. i know i would be **** if that happened, and that is why me and many of the community feel that scripts aren't good for this PUB server.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Okay, that's nice. Ignoring his rather smug attitude (I'm absolutely positive he would get <b>destroyed</b> by real players (Not implying that I am a 'real player')). I assumed he was talking about a 3jump, and somehow missed my huge post explaining what 3jump does (aka it doesn't bhop for you). So I reply: <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->For example, Hieyeck still believing that if he was given a 3jump, he could suddenly bhop. He couldn't. You would need to learn how to bhop first.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> SO THEN HE REPLIES (THIS IS FUNNY GUYS): <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->i'm not saying 3jumping is bhopping... read and achieve. <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->now wouldn't you fell gipped if i loaded a bhop script (or your 3jump)<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--><!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> So he has the balls to tell me read and achieve, yet at the same time adamantly believes that a script that bunny hops for you exists. I'm amazed. THIS IS WHAT I AM TALKING ABOUT. READ IT OVER AND OVER, UNTIL IT SINKS IN, PLEASE.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->To the people bad-mouthing admins on servers, and showing the "idiocy" of thier forms. I could point out many, many instances of indiocy on these forums. Take your time to get to know the community before juding it from a few topics. As for the admins, get to know teh admins better to. If the server constantly has admins abusing thier power, then find a new one.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> The admins don't get a chance to know me, because I'M WRONG, AND IF I DON'T LIKE IT, I CAN LEAVE <BANNED>. Also, it's incredibly hypocritical for you to say "just get to know the admins, they are nice guys really!" and at the same time say "vets are bad people because some of them decided to be mean to us." SURELY you can see the... uhm.... irony?
Last, I know that I can find a new one. That doesn't educate the admins about their wrong ways though does it? It seems you're telling us to not fix the problem, just put a bandage over it. Besides, it's not like there is some HUGE amount of NS servers to play on. Late at night, I usually get 10 or less that are not full, not empty, not PW'd, and have less than 100 ping.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I know for certain that G4B2S tries thier best to stop admins from abusing thier power. We had a problem with one admin before, but by taking it to the head admin, it was solved quickly. As well, some of it is all in good fun. Like some of our admins will start building alien tfs and alien ips and alien turrets when teh aliens have clearly lost. Yes, it's hacking the game, but it's funny. And the aliens have nothign better to do while the marines take thier time setting up seiges and such. Giving a JP to teh last marine alive so he can try to run it also entertaining. Some people lose sight of teh fact that this is a game, and even if you play competitively, you should play to have fun.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Right, you guys sure do curb those admins powers. I was banned from your IRC channel because someone asked what wallstrafing was, and I told them. Later, I was banned for asking to discuss scripts. Hey I'll post the entire PM log between Heiyeck and me, if you want. I'm sitting there talking nicely and he gets all heated and starts yelling at me. In this, he says that changing cl_rate is a speedhack. <Hieyeck> there are PLENTY of more severe exploits, such as faking lag to "speedhack". <Hieyeck> if cl_rate is low enough, you fake lag While it can make you sort of teleport around and be hard to hit... it is in no way a speedhack.
Finally, realize that several of your admins with open minds agree with me. About scripting, about your closed-mindedness, etc. If you don't want to listen to me, LISTEN TO THEM. Or we could always just say F them, F CAL, F clanners, F education, F evidence, F anything that doesn't support our viewpoint. We're right, like it or get out.
<!--QuoteBegin-DarkFrost+Nov 9 2004, 10:32 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (DarkFrost @ Nov 9 2004, 10:32 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> That is because you have to, if you don't then you and your clan will fail, or call themself "Fun" clans <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Do you have to use scripts? No. Do you have to learn a whole lot more about the game? Yes.
<!--QuoteBegin-Nadagast+Nov 10 2004, 05:12 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Nadagast @ Nov 10 2004, 05:12 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-DarkFrost+Nov 9 2004, 10:32 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (DarkFrost @ Nov 9 2004, 10:32 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> That is because you have to, if you don't then you and your clan will fail, or call themself "Fun" clans <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Do you have to use scripts? No. Do you have to learn a whole lot more about the game? Yes. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Exactly what i meant..
<!--QuoteBegin-Nadagast+Nov 9 2004, 11:10 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Nadagast @ Nov 9 2004, 11:10 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Or we could always just say F them, F CAL, F clanners, F education, F evidence, F anything that doesn't support our viewpoint. We're right, like it or get out. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> and they have every right to do so because they pay for the server and if you think someone devoting their <b>money</b> for you to play a <b>game</b> doesn't give them that right you've obviously never worked a day in your life and live in your parent's basement
i don't use any scripts (for <b>anything</b> -- i don't have medpack/ammo request scripts, 3jump, pistol, or anything else)
i completely support blockscripts 1
yet i frequently get banned from servers with blockscripts on while running cheating death because i'm "using an aim script" or "wallhacking"
however i <b>still</b> do not come here and post about how people are ignorant and they need to know everything that i know because clearly i know more than them, because if that's what they choose to believe, then so be it. claiming you will change everyone's mind and inform the masses of something they really can't be bothered to care about because <b>not everyone is as obsessive over this computer game as you are</b> is so incredibly short-sighted i'm amazed that you continue to press the issue
starting this thread which insults and spits all over many people who run and administrate servers, whether they are "ignorant" (in your opinion) or not, is no more mature than the actions of the individual who said he was going to "hack" your computer
trying to generalize problems you have so that they apply to all of natural selection and going so far as to say that they are the things ruining the game is not only absurd -- it's pathetic
i named for you the actual problems this game has; this thread now serves as nothing more than a self-indulgent flamefest for those who think that they're better than those on "the other side of the fence" and arguing common sense back and forth ad nauseum
Can you tell Nadagast is getting slightly **** off? He even stopped using the <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> . God Forbid!
<!--QuoteBegin-rennex+Nov 9 2004, 11:29 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (rennex @ Nov 9 2004, 11:29 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Nadagast+Nov 7 2004, 09:53 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Nadagast @ Nov 7 2004, 09:53 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> And other than that: I think I'm gonna stop posting on this thread. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> <!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> BLAST RENNEX HAS FOUND ME OUT
Seriously though I can't help myself. I need to get help. <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/sad-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Comments
Vote with your feet. Play elsewhere. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I guess you didn't see crisano's post with the A ---- B ------ C thing. The problem is NOT admins running their servers how they see fit. The problem is that these servers are where most of the new players go, and they are also havens of idiots that cite scripts as being the source of a clanner's skill, or classify all clanners are res ****, etc. The new players will obviously believe them, for the reasons crisano mentioned - when the occasional clanner comes on the pub, he'll most likely get harrassed by people if he's trying to hard, which will lead to bickering and in some cases a kick/ban. But the kick isn't necessary; to the new players, the veteran anti-clanners have been proven correct. The misinformation spreads, reaching a new wave of new players, who will in turn "inform" the next wave. So, in effect, these people aren't just affecting their own server, they're widening the rift between clanners and pubbers, which is a death toll for NS.
You can do whatever you want on your own server, block scripts, ban bunnyhopping, whatever, but the second you start to propogate an attitude that detrimentally affects all players everywhere, you've overstepped your boundaries, and you can't just blow it off as "play elsewhere".
Yet another major problem with the current NS community. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I've seen a lot of hate directed at clanners or vets just because they were clanners or vets. Perhaps yeah they used scripts, so using scripts deserves hating? As Space Jesus said, that's the totally wrong attitude that needs to be fixed in this community. If someone uses scripts, should you hate them? No. If someone uses hacks should you hate them? Sure! Does script = hacks? No. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
The bigger question is: How the hell do you find out that said vet is using a script? There is absolutely no way to tell.
I laugh EVERY TIME some random person on a pub yells SCRIPTZ after he gets owned. He has no idea what script, and has no way to tell if the person is scripting. He just yells out scripts because he thinks that's why he's getting owned. He's ignorant.
I have a demo of this for evidence if anyone needs some. Lordy will also attest to this. The guy said I was a blatant script cheater or something and told me to stay on the server for 30 more minutes so he could hack my computer and make it crash or something.... real mature.
I hated those guys.
The Cri guys were always killing everyone, spawncamping, and LMGing the hive to death, the eve guys were always ramboing and killing everyone, then spawncamping. The ReD guys, well, we all just hated mulock. During 2.0x I went around hating anyone with a vet tag. anyone who came around doing really well and trying to tell everyone that they were wrong was stupid... And redline, from old EpX... he would always bhop around and go crazy fast, eventually someone talked about how they "had that script too." from then on scripts were the devil, and they played for you.
keep in mind that I had played on the same server from 1.0x to 2.01 or so... so pretty much anyone who came into the "bubble" was shunned, if they were a vet
eventually during 3.0 beta I joined Sphere, and we made it to the CAL omega playoffs... and we were always scrimming and such... It was great because I had played with almost every person in the clan since 1.04 or 2.0... Azkar told me all about different clan stuff, since he was in BAH in the earlier season. I got scripts for myself and learned how to bhop... and finally when I started pubbing during the more laid back parts of the season, and after it ended.
All the comms were terrible, getting weapons 1 first, not handing out shotties, just doing retarded mistakes that could easily be cured if someone just talked to them. So, I tried, but they wouldnt listen to me... I had the clan tag on along with a few others in the server.
Eventually I just got fed up with having everyone in the pub server having no idea what they're doing, and not listening to anyone about anything... The other day someone said I speedhacked, since I was moving my mouse in "odd" ways while jumping, and jumping of other slopes and such... speedhacking... "exploiting the **** out of the engine"
just like I used to be...
... anyway... Im just supporting the fact that once you get in a clan, everything is just so much clearer, i myself am an example... it happened to me...
edit: pubbing, not pugging
That said, I still can't agree with you. What if, hypothetically speaking, one server became very famous as a newbie server. So well known that everyone you met online referred you to it as a good place to learn. New players would hear about it, and most likely would visit.
Now, imagine that this particular server <u>also</u> had a rule: no battlegorging. If you're a gorge, and you actively seek out combat, you will be kicked or banned, because that's just the way the admins think the game should be played. Perfectly good rule - maybe they were having a problem at one point with new players gorging, running into a marine, and dying right away; perhaps they just ran into ms and dropped two ocs, which were promptly destroyed, and they didn't like people wasting all that res.
We agree that the admins are perfectly within their rights to enforce this rule. It might be strange, but you know, if you really want to be uber-battle-gorgy, there's plenty of other servers out there where you can practice. And they might have legitimate reasons; it's really none of your business. Besides, other than that, the server is well-admined. Lamers and llamas are kicked when they need to be, no racism is tolerated, and the admins respect the players' rights.
One last tidbit of information about this server: the admins and regulars on this server also badmouth anyone who battlegorges. Apparently anyone who gorge-dances properly is doing something to gain an advantage over the rest of the us. The new players will obviously think that what these people say is true, because whenever <u>they</u> get caught somewhere by a lone marine as gorge, they're dead before they even know what hit 'em. To these new players, there's no possible way someone could survive legitimately in battle with a gorge; it's impossible.
This attitude leads to two things. First of all, if a strange player comes on the server who knows how to conserve adrenaline, gorgedance, use web, etc, and starts getting kills as a gorge, he will either be banned or, at the very least, verbally abused by these players who don't know that it is indeed possible to do such things without cheating. In the grand scheme of things, this behavior really isn't important, because the abused player can obviously just leave.
Secondly, and more importantly, this new player - after playing for a while on this server - starts saying the same things to even newer players that the server vets told <i>him</i>, how to play, how to work as a team, and oh yeah, battlegorging is evil. Thus it passes on to the next wave of players. But the server is getting more and more crowded; people start leaving and moving off to other servers, where gorgedancing is allowed. Suddenly you have players that gorgedance getting abused <u>everywhere</u>, on all different kinds of servers, because the players that originally started from that particular newbie server all believe gorgedancing to be equivalent with cheating.
Furthermore, new players these anti-gorgedancers encounter are taken in by their words, because it all makes so much sense. Gorging is hard for them, and the movements they see other gorgedancers do are incredibly odd sometimes, and in the end it's just better to assume foul play rather than an imbalance of skill or experience (the ego expands with anonymity, for some reason).
Thus the cycle continues, new players constantly being told by this ever-expanding community of veteran pubbers that gorgedancing is evil, and should be shunned and/or banned. The best NS players are scorned by the incoming newbies because they're all haxors, according to the new players' mentors. Slowly the gap between the battlegorges and the anti-battlegorges widens, and the battlegorges soon find it impossible to find a decent public server without getting harrassed, and so they stop caring about ALL pubs. And it all started because one particular server's admins all badmouthed gorgedancing to new players.
Now, I'm not saying that any particular server has that power, though I believe some do come close. I'm just trying to raise the point: can server admins <u>still</u> do whatever they want, say whatever they want, badmouth whatever they want, as long as it's on their own server, <u>even if it affects other servers, and the community as a whole</u>? I think not.
It's not like it's the majority vs. the minority, oh no, because in this example anti-battlegorging was not the newbie's initial opinion. Unfortunately he was convinced of this opinion before he ever saw the other side to the story, which for most people solidifies their attitude. Therefore, I don't consider the battlegorgers to be in the minority; most people didn't even care about battlegorging one way or another before players from that unnamed server showed up in their servers and on their channels and boards. It's an imposed opinion, propaganda, if you will. It is not <u>their</u> opinion, it is them spouting someone else's opinion. And a thousand people all thinking with one mind and speaking from one mouth represents just one person, in my book. Minority vs majority my ****; the number of hardcore battlegorgers and hardcore anti-battlegorgers were probably equal in the beginning, and the only reason one side grew is because their opinion was the only one in circulation.
And cmon, I get points for the gorgedancing, right? Right?
Also bear in mind my great love for the community and the fact that there's nothing I'd like better than a nice clean forum without tards who should KNOW BETTER persistently clogging up the works.
Is your coffee boiled? Got a biscuit? Then sit down and read this like a Bremner sketch (or alternatively SNL) - no hate here except for the ignorant.
Crisano's A-B-C post has nothing to do with how people choose to spend their money, 5kyh16h.
If you believe certain servers are havens of idiots, then with my blessing I tell you to MAKE YOUR OWN. If its great, it will catch in. If your ideas are as dumb and idiotic (as you seem to think certain servers are) then people will not go to your server.
Of course, anyone who has an empty server will always be quick to claim "noone can handle my leet server rules". We all know what that means though, don't we.
Facts are facts, people will not play on crap servers. You can't dress it up any other way. Server ops pay good coin to ensure that they get to game the way they like it - none of us are any different. If anyone is feeling shortchanged, make their own server. Make their own mod. Whatever. You have a snowball in hell's chance of forcing someone to fork out their cash in order to run a server thats NOT the way they like it. A lot of server ops will take into consideration the requests of their community, but they are by no means obliged to.
If we attempt to bring this in line with the A-B-C then you'll note that the door swings both ways - all you need to do is get some friends and run your own server. As I've said, if its any good you'll grow a community, and from there you can try to increase your numbers. If people think your rules are dumb, your server will die, and you will have unequivocal proof that you are a minority.
I address this openly to anyone who feels that they know better - don't whine, don't make claims, pull your finger out and DO IT. Make a better server, get a bigger community.
As for this purported clanner-pubber gap, its not encouraged by serverside switches, or balance tweaks, its encouraged by the COMMUNITY. If people act like tards in servers, then people who play in those servers will associate those people with that behaviour. Anyone who stands up and says "that guys not a tard!" is instantly signing up to their banner and puts himself closer to the same flag.
Consider, I join a server, I act like a noob, tell the admins their rules are dumb, and demand explanations for why I should follow their rules. I get banned, and rightly so. Anyone who then sides with me will take on a portion of my tard behaviour, until the point where anyone who says "Nec was right" effectively says "I'm a tard too".
Newsflash - the man who pays the money does not have to justify his rules to you. You don't like them, bugger off. Jump off a cliff. People don't pay money for some immature brat with a grudge to bounce on their server, ignore half the rules, then turn round and backchat the admin as to why they should follow them.
You do that on ANY server, for ANY game, and you are heading for a ban. Wouldn't need to think twice. I defy anyone to say otherwise. If a new player joined a more experienced server and did dumb things, is he going to be educated? If he asks why he should have to do things your way, do you sit the little guy down and explain to him? If he gets in the CC, do you explain to him that your server doesn't like noobs in the chair? Doesn't like noobs dropping dumb chambers as gorge?
No, I tell you what you do, you ban him. And why not? He doesn't understand the rules, your motd said no noobs in the chair, your server name was GK426's NO NOOBS SERVOR, and yet he still came in! He's obviously and idiot, so lets ban him.
Consider now when a player enters a server with a "no consonants in your name" rule. He sees it in the motd, he's aware of the rules, yet he keeps the consonants in his name. Clearly, this man is an idiot. You could ban him on the spot. Instead you give him a friendly warning. His reply "Yeah I read the rules, they suck".
What would you do next? Whack him with a ban. Again, I double dare ANYONE to say that they would enter a dialogue with a griefer. What does our banned griefer do? He adds your name to his list in Notepad and then in every thread he makes, he'll mention your server's name as part of the Axis of Terror.
The majority of people will just laugh at the little tantrum child, especially when its clearly dumb enough to say "ogm I broke the rules of this server and got banned, how dare they, DON'T THEY KNOW WHO I AM". Frankly, noone cares who you are. There's plenty of people queuing up for the server, why worry about some child who knowingly broke the rules?
The issue at hand is not scripts, hacks, cheats, customs, etc, its about a small group of people who are blindingly convinced of their own superiority that they can see no other way. If they had any money, or intelligence, they'd be running their own server, happily educating the interested in how to play the game. Or, possibly, they'd be sitting on an empty server whining about how all those noobs won't join their leet server. Its a slap in the face that some people desperately need.
Realise that there are BIGGER things in this world, and your sole opinion will not influence them. You do not pay for it, you are not entitled to it, noone is obliged to provide it to you.
IF YOU DO NOT LIKE IT, MAKE YOUR OWN.
I want to look back on 5kyh16h's comment, which was
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but the second you start to propogate an attitude that detrimentally affects all players everywhere
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I reply to this, but direct it to the group as a whole, I'm not singling ONE person out. Do you not think that that moment is when a small jumped up group of infants decides that they know better than the entire community? The servers have spoken, the players have spoken. Ranting in a thread about how everyone should bow to you is an exercise in futility.
What I find quite funny is that a smaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaall tiny group of children are bleating about a switch that they can change on their own server. Why force their views on others? Ironic they accuse so many of their own crime. Is it not easier, more acceptable, more tolerable, for them to make their own server? Invite people to play with them? Why must the people paying hard cash for their servers be forced to change just because some people can't find a "good" game?
The issue isn't about switches, its about people too cheap to fork out a small amount of money to run a server. People who would willingly admit to joining servers, fully aware of the rules, and then breaking them. Silly silly people. Here's a more fruitful exercise, run up to a local law enforcement official and kick him in the nuts. When he "exercises reasonable force" in restraining you from assaulting an officer of the law, turn round and tell him his laws are dumb.
I bet most people would say "Move to a different country then, tard".
Silly silly children. Crying babies get more attention. Once you get to a certain age, most of us realise whining will not help, noone will come to clean your bottom, talc it, and give you a new nappy. People will laugh and point at the man who pooed his pants. If you've any wit, you would know better. Lead by example, put your money on the line. Griefing people who are paying money to run a server is NOT a good way to get support. Griefing servers will make you look like a tard. Go into a server and KNOWINGLY break the rules and you will soon become very well known as "that nubtard who totally ignored our rules then told us they were dumb". If you don't listen to nubtards, then why do you think anyone else is going to listen to you? Who are you anyway? Some text on a forum messageboard? You think anyone cares?
This is reality Greg. You get a group of people, you make it work, and others will listen. Otherwise you may as well put on a placard, grab a megaphone, and sit outside city hall telling everyone your viewpoints until the police haul you off.
Put your money where your mouth is folks, you make your own server. Record your stats, let everyone see how popular you are. Let everyone know how many tards you had to ban because they wouldn't read the rules. I'd like to see it. It'd be an example and it would inspire others to do the same, and then NS would be like EVERY OTHER GAMING COMMUNITY where people run their OWN servers with their OWN decisions on switches. If your server is empty, then the people have spoken - you suck.
As a sort of epilogue to this post, consider that you are the MINORITY, and that as such you will need to be LIKED or at least TOLERATED in order to get people on your side. Griefing won't help. Having a grudge list of servers, mods, players whom you MUST name in every thread won't help either. Derailing threads by bringing up your personal crusade won't help. Sure, you'll attract 3 or 4 other grannies but you'll still end up looking like Mary Whitehouse. If you want to prove how RIGHT you are (and clearly from each and every thread we can see this IS the motivation) then lets see the meat.
Otherwise sit down and shut up, you're making yourself more of a joke and its really quite sad. Acknowledge this - I can say whatever I like on the matter because I have NOTHING to prove, I don't care what people do on their servers because I will play at the ones I like. I don't care what you think because you have absolutely zero impact on my servers, on my life, or on my gaming. You are nothing, and the vast bulk of the community feel exactly the same deep down.
You think you're all that? You know better? Then cmon, lets see it. Lets see your perfect server, with a thriving community, no tards, and no 2 yr olds running loose in OT or GD making whine/spam threads. You come back to us then, maybe we'll listen. Up to that point, heh, you're just a 5 minute comedy post on a 17 page thread.
If nothing else, consider the words of Milton - Better to reign in Hell than serve in Heaven.
Edit - Didn't want 5ky to think I was ripping on him directly, changed the wording to make it more obvious that I address a hypothetical "group".
Quaunaut I like you, you're a good bloke but please think about what you said.
I have at least 6 screenshots from different maps of entities and sections of maps deleted by adminmod on Lunixmonster. Its always fun to know you can't get to somewhere on the map without a lot of extra hassle, if at all, thanks to the ignorance of admins. adminmod has been breaking maps since it was created many years ago but pointing this out to LB gets you either ignored or banned (usually both).
A couple of instances which couldn't be captured in a screenshot you may have experienced yourself. On ns_caged the right hand func_ladder from Purification Station into Sewer Hive is regularly missing. I'm sure the marines enjoy having the normal routes which the mapper intended taken away from them (gorges & onos too I guess) because a server side plugin likes to randomly remove things from the map. Oh what fun it is to try & assault that hive when you're forced to use a single tight coridoor.
On the combat map with the hive that looks like engine on bast (can't remember the name because I don't play much combat) one of the trigger_multiples for the doors in the upper area was deleted on the marine side forcing the marines to use the dark lower area to get to the hive. good game aliens win.
Nada had a great point. Education is needed to defeat ignorance but it only works if the people you're trying to educate actually want to learn. Like you said a lot of the regs/res slotters, who were the reason I kept returning to LM, are leaving these days.
We reap what we sow.
P.S. Necrosis if you're going to keep on posting 4 page essays on this thread I think people might listen to what you're saying if you actually played NS at all.
It's an idealistic goal, indeed, to promote an open-minded attitude (see the beginning of my last post), but that doesn't make it wrong to try. At the very least, call what I say unrealistic, rather than arguing about servers' rights. Promoting a good attitude and acceptance is not even close to infringing on a server's rights, so get over that argument. A server has the right to do anything to the players on his server that he wants, but admins definitely don't have the right to badmouth ANY group of people in the first place, let alone to a group of impressionable newbies, when the group they're blamming has no chance to voice their side (either because they're llamaed or kicked.....)
///// HP+AMMO /////
/////////////////////////////////////////////
alias Medpack "impulse 10;say_team [- Health Commander! -];impulse 10"
alias Ammunition "impulse 11;say_team [- Ammo Commander! -];impulse 11"
alias nextwep "invnext;+attack;wait;-attack"
alias prevwep "invprev;+attack;wait;-attack"<!--c2--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--ec2-->
^^ The only Scripts you ever need for marine period <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Those of you that understand, will see that these are directly out of a config.cfg and not created on some elite hax program.
On the subject of Pistol Scripting, the simple bind of attack to mousewheel gives the same effect, OR now here is the clincher, hold the mouse still and hammer LMB. Both not difficult . (first one works for bunny hop too, obviously binding mwheel to jump)
I am dissapointed in NS as it is at the moment, after playing since NS 1.0 until NSP 2.1 (when I moved house and lost internet for a year <!--emo&:angry:--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html//emoticons/mad-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='mad-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> ) returning was a shock to the system, those who knew me, or knew of me aren't the problem, its the new generation of them who seem to know everything and nothing.
You want real teamplay? Play a game where your commander give 0 waypoints and pull it off, thats clan play friends <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Also how can you reject the lone marine in aliens hive, he is in the BEST possition on the map, give him a phase gate, spam shotguns, win!
What they really want to sort out is the ability to "fix" your rates so that your hit reg is off slightly (many people dont believe things like this is possible, forgive me if it is me that is missinformed).
But all that is way off topic, just wanted to sort that stuff out.
I do believe there is alot of ignorance on these subjects, Scripts like what I show here are extremely simple to do, any monkey with half a brain can do them. There is no real advantage, its convenience, for instance; some keyboards cant press many buttons at once or the PC will beep at you, in my case i couldn't press "Forward, Left, Jump and change weapon" so i made the script so that the mousewheel will change them without me having to press fire to select the next one.
The other aspect discussed is the dissmissal that ANYONE is better than the publics, well if you like to think so then so be it, just remember when you are calling that guy who is killing you 100 times hax that you MUST be correct because you are the pinnacle of NS gamers.
Thank you, goodnight.
*EDIT*
Meant to say, those of u on the forums that remember me, will know that I have done thing the community, I have tryed to make a map, although it didnt go well, I did get alot of praise for my efforts (topic will still be arround somewhere)
ALSO I was the kickstart to the NS 1.05 Unofficial patch, combining the metamods that seemed closest to NS 1.1 into a semi requirement.
I payed Flayra for NS long before the announcement of "Constellation will PT NS 2.1"
Also bear in mind my great love for the community and the fact that there's nothing I'd like better than a nice clean forum without tards who should KNOW BETTER persistently clogging up the works.
Is your coffee boiled? Got a biscuit? Then sit down and read this like a Bremner sketch (or alternatively SNL) - no hate here except for the ignorant.
Crisano's A-B-C post has nothing to do with how people choose to spend their money, 5kyh16h.
If you believe certain servers are havens of idiots, then with my blessing I tell you to MAKE YOUR OWN. If its great, it will catch in. If your ideas are as dumb and idiotic (as you seem to think certain servers are) then people will not go to your server.
Of course, anyone who has an empty server will always be quick to claim "noone can handle my leet server rules". We all know what that means though, don't we.
Facts are facts, people will not play on crap servers. You can't dress it up any other way. Server ops pay good coin to ensure that they get to game the way they like it - none of us are any different. If anyone is feeling shortchanged, make their own server. Make their own mod. Whatever. You have a snowball in hell's chance of forcing someone to fork out their cash in order to run a server thats NOT the way they like it. A lot of server ops will take into consideration the requests of their community, but they are by no means obliged to.
If we attempt to bring this in line with the A-B-C then you'll note that the door swings both ways - all you need to do is get some friends and run your own server. As I've said, if its any good you'll grow a community, and from there you can try to increase your numbers. If people think your rules are dumb, your server will die, and you will have unequivocal proof that you are a minority.
I address this openly to anyone who feels that they know better - don't whine, don't make claims, pull your finger out and DO IT. Make a better server, get a bigger community.
As for this purported clanner-pubber gap, its not encouraged by serverside switches, or balance tweaks, its encouraged by the COMMUNITY. If people act like tards in servers, then people who play in those servers will associate those people with that behaviour. Anyone who stands up and says "that guys not a tard!" is instantly signing up to their banner and puts himself closer to the same flag.
Consider, I join a server, I act like a noob, tell the admins their rules are dumb, and demand explanations for why I should follow their rules. I get banned, and rightly so. Anyone who then sides with me will take on a portion of my tard behaviour, until the point where anyone who says "Nec was right" effectively says "I'm a tard too".
Newsflash - the man who pays the money does not have to justify his rules to you. You don't like them, bugger off. Jump off a cliff. People don't pay money for some immature brat with a grudge to bounce on their server, ignore half the rules, then turn round and backchat the admin as to why they should follow them.
You do that on ANY server, for ANY game, and you are heading for a ban. Wouldn't need to think twice. I defy anyone to say otherwise. If a new player joined a more experienced server and did dumb things, is he going to be educated? If he asks why he should have to do things your way, do you sit the little guy down and explain to him? If he gets in the CC, do you explain to him that your server doesn't like noobs in the chair? Doesn't like noobs dropping dumb chambers as gorge?
No, I tell you what you do, you ban him. And why not? He doesn't understand the rules, your motd said no noobs in the chair, your server name was GK426's NO NOOBS SERVOR, and yet he still came in! He's obviously and idiot, so lets ban him.
Consider now when a player enters a server with a "no consonants in your name" rule. He sees it in the motd, he's aware of the rules, yet he keeps the consonants in his name. Clearly, this man is an idiot. You could ban him on the spot. Instead you give him a friendly warning. His reply "Yeah I read the rules, they suck".
What would you do next? Whack him with a ban. Again, I double dare ANYONE to say that they would enter a dialogue with a griefer. What does our banned griefer do? He adds your name to his list in Notepad and then in every thread he makes, he'll mention your server's name as part of the Axis of Terror.
The majority of people will just laugh at the little tantrum child, especially when its clearly dumb enough to say "ogm I broke the rules of this server and got banned, how dare they, DON'T THEY KNOW WHO I AM". Frankly, noone cares who you are. There's plenty of people queuing up for the server, why worry about some child who knowingly broke the rules?
The issue at hand is not scripts, hacks, cheats, customs, etc, its about a small group of people who are blindingly convinced of their own superiority that they can see no other way. If they had any money, or intelligence, they'd be running their own server, happily educating the interested in how to play the game. Or, possibly, they'd be sitting on an empty server whining about how all those noobs won't join their leet server. Its a slap in the face that some people desperately need.
Realise that there are BIGGER things in this world, and your sole opinion will not influence them. You do not pay for it, you are not entitled to it, noone is obliged to provide it to you.
IF YOU DO NOT LIKE IT, MAKE YOUR OWN.
I want to look back on 5kyh16h's comment, which was
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
but the second you start to propogate an attitude that detrimentally affects all players everywhere
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I reply to this, but direct it to the group as a whole, I'm not singling ONE person out. Do you not think that that moment is when a small jumped up group of infants decides that they know better than the entire community? The servers have spoken, the players have spoken. Ranting in a thread about how everyone should bow to you is an exercise in futility.
What I find quite funny is that a smaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaall tiny group of children are bleating about a switch that they can change on their own server. Why force their views on others? Ironic they accuse so many of their own crime. Is it not easier, more acceptable, more tolerable, for them to make their own server? Invite people to play with them? Why must the people paying hard cash for their servers be forced to change just because some people can't find a "good" game?
The issue isn't about switches, its about people too cheap to fork out a small amount of money to run a server. People who would willingly admit to joining servers, fully aware of the rules, and then breaking them. Silly silly people. Here's a more fruitful exercise, run up to a local law enforcement official and kick him in the nuts. When he "exercises reasonable force" in restraining you from assaulting an officer of the law, turn round and tell him his laws are dumb.
I bet most people would say "Move to a different country then, tard".
Silly silly children. Crying babies get more attention. Once you get to a certain age, most of us realise whining will not help, noone will come to clean your bottom, talc it, and give you a new nappy. People will laugh and point at the man who pooed his pants. If you've any wit, you would know better. Lead by example, put your money on the line. Griefing people who are paying money to run a server is NOT a good way to get support. Griefing servers will make you look like a tard. Go into a server and KNOWINGLY break the rules and you will soon become very well known as "that nubtard who totally ignored our rules then told us they were dumb". If you don't listen to nubtards, then why do you think anyone else is going to listen to you? Who are you anyway? Some text on a forum messageboard? You think anyone cares?
This is reality Greg. You get a group of people, you make it work, and others will listen. Otherwise you may as well put on a placard, grab a megaphone, and sit outside city hall telling everyone your viewpoints until the police haul you off.
Put your money where your mouth is folks, you make your own server. Record your stats, let everyone see how popular you are. Let everyone know how many tards you had to ban because they wouldn't read the rules. I'd like to see it. It'd be an example and it would inspire others to do the same, and then NS would be like EVERY OTHER GAMING COMMUNITY where people run their OWN servers with their OWN decisions on switches. If your server is empty, then the people have spoken - you suck.
As a sort of epilogue to this post, consider that you are the MINORITY, and that as such you will need to be LIKED or at least TOLERATED in order to get people on your side. Griefing won't help. Having a grudge list of servers, mods, players whom you MUST name in every thread won't help either. Derailing threads by bringing up your personal crusade won't help. Sure, you'll attract 3 or 4 other grannies but you'll still end up looking like Mary Whitehouse. If you want to prove how RIGHT you are (and clearly from each and every thread we can see this IS the motivation) then lets see the meat.
Otherwise sit down and shut up, you're making yourself more of a joke and its really quite sad. Acknowledge this - I can say whatever I like on the matter because I have NOTHING to prove, I don't care what people do on their servers because I will play at the ones I like. I don't care what you think because you have absolutely zero impact on my servers, on my life, or on my gaming. You are nothing, and the vast bulk of the community feel exactly the same deep down.
You think you're all that? You know better? Then cmon, lets see it. Lets see your perfect server, with a thriving community, no tards, and no 2 yr olds running loose in OT or GD making whine/spam threads. You come back to us then, maybe we'll listen. Up to that point, heh, you're just a 5 minute comedy post on a 17 page thread.
If nothing else, consider the words of Milton - Better to reign in Hell than serve in Heaven.
Edit - Didn't want 5ky to think I was ripping on him directly, changed the wording to make it more obvious that I address a hypothetical "group". <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Dude don't you get it?
This is YOUR community, if you want to uranite all over it, then it WILL COME BACK TO HAUNT YOU TOO!
I can tell your mentality; it's capitalist. Don't get me wrong, I <3 <3 capitalism! I love it's philsophies and it's beliefs. You may think you are following a capitalist mentality but you aren't!
If you were truely concerned about running a kickarse server then it's in your best intrests to promote the gameplay, the skill level, AND educate the masses about fallacies!
Every person that the LM community (or some other backwater community) manages to turn away from the clan community; this translates to 20 other people who may have brought more people to your server.
You may THINK that it's not your obligation to help out and you can keep feeding the masses all the crap you want, but the truth is straight from spyder man (lol can't believe I'm quoting this):
"With great power, comes great responsibility."
Hey, you wanna claim that you can abuse clanners all you want; go for it dude it's your own community (the same one me and you are in) that you are killing.
By the way, your entire example is reinforced ignorance; you promote the idea you need not to help others but simply leech off the system, and others accept this as fact.
Here's a fact, this logical fallacy of only taking care of yourself has been around forever, and always proven wrong.
That's a logical fallacy. "It's my server, so I can run it how I want." This is one of the most basic logical fallcies known to mankind. It's the same old story where the hero realizes his power and saves the day instead of ignoring it. The truth is if you keep spreading ignorance then it's going to accelerate your death. Do you really want that?
By the way, we can see this logical fallacy done throughout history:
- Hack and Burn farming. Burning down the foilage, then the burned crops provide nutrients to the ground. In turn you plant crops and have a killer season. Too bad it takes another 5 years after to re-use the farm land. But hey, just keep moving on to other farm lands, right? After NS is dead, the lunixmonster can move to another game to leech a community from.
- Slander. Slander is illegal in the United States. Even our founding fathers saw that you could not have people spread lies about each other without destroying the community. And the founding fathers were huge believers of allowing factions to flourish too.
- Pearl Harbor. The United States said, "We just need to take care of ourselves, and we will be fine..." and where did that take them? WW2 would have easily been prevented without people with your mentality necrosis. And today the USA is the world police because they learned the hard way they will eventually be the targets of other countries!
Now, I'm just going to enlarge this because it's a long post and I want to catch some attention to an important point:
<span style='font-size:21pt;line-height:100%'>Anyone who says "It's my server therefore I can run it <b>however</b> I want to." clearly does not care two craps about the NS community, except for their own exclusive community.</span>
like the gorgedance anology. what happened if someone made a newbie server that encouraged gorgedacning? you would basicly be building a force to recon with the other.
The one with the more people beliving gorgedancing is okay and good. the more people you have spreading the word. thus aliviating, or help aleviating the wide spreed fire that is ignorance.
So far both sides have vallid points....But this is not a black and white topic. its more gray than some realize. and the answer is in the grey areas.
I know of a server that used to ban anyone that played better than them. at one point they become unpopular untill a select few helped inprove the server and now its rather popular.
<!--QuoteBegin-Forlon+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Forlon)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->"It's my server therefore I can run it however I want to."<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It used to even have that adituide and it become unpopular because of it. now its alot better by reworking the system and we get some amazingly fun games now. which inturn made more people join
Firstly, to all teh people who do this: I don't appreciate you lumping all pubbers into 1 giant category. We are not all ignorant as you think. We do not all res****, we do not all rambo. Many of us have good understanding of tactics and strategy. Do not take the couple of WORST PLAYERS form the WORST GAMES and apply all their WORST TRAITS to all pubbers. Yes, all these ancedotes are fine, but realize that all these are just the worst experiences peopel have had. No-one will tell you about the time the team listened to teh com, or the time the aliens didn't res **** and got that hive up in 3-4 mins, as well as put up and defended thier rts.
Nadagast: Yes, people will yell SCRIPTS and HACKER, but you forget to mention that alot of people on the server defended you as well.
Nadagast: Now to the main point you put up about the scripts. WE KNOW WHAT THEY ARE. WE KNOW WHAT THEY DO. From the words of admins on that server, we choose to disallow them because we cater to the general public. Not everyone is good enough so scripts dont' mean much at all. I know the overhyped blink-swipe script actaully sucks badly to any player who knows how to fade decently. We prefer that people not be lazy and use such scripts to become a mediocre fade, or use a triple-jump to help bunny hop. We know scripts cannot replace skill. But we prefer that you do nto use scripts to help you do things like bunnyhop, and prefer that if you want to bunnyhop, you do it yourself, with your own skill, and not get aid from a script.
Nadagast: In addition, you kept stating repeatedly that scripts were A CONVENIENCE. Teh only other things you kept doing were trying to prove we were ignorant about scripting. I know most scripting is harmless, but it being "convenient" to have scripts was NOT seen as a good enough reason to enable scripts.
In fact, having mp_blockscripts enabled allows people to immeadiately shoot down all those pubbers you seem to have a problem with. They yell SCRIPTOR, and we just tell them blockscripts is enabled. It creates a better and more fun environment.
The clanner hate from most of the pubbers comes from the the fact some clanners/vets go on server and immeadiately disregard everything they preach, and then bad-mouth the team for not being able to aim, or placing ocs. They rambo, and they might get some insane K:D ratio and kill lots of alien rts, but they dont' listen to the com either, and they they put on a I'm better than all you guys. "Look, I killed 30 of them and only died 5 times, and took out 4 rts. Why cant' you guys help me here?" That comes across are being very arrogant and being a total ****.
I know not all clanners do that, but the few who do make a bad impression. It's the same with pubbers. The few who call hacks or scripts every time someone with skill comes on gives a bad name to pubbers.
Nadagast: In addition, we are open minded. We reopened the topic for you to state your views. But you didn't seem to try to see it from our side either. It's a pub that we run. We cater to the general pub audience. You didnt' state any reasons how unblocking scripts would benefit our community/servers. We stated that having it enabled would benefit pubbers, because they could play and see that scripts didnt' increase skill. And not have to bother doing all that in-depth research into scripts to satisfy thier minds, when some of them only play a couple hours a week. In our view, blocking scripts has made the server more public friendly, and has furthered our goals.
To the people bad-mouthing admins on servers, and showing the "idiocy" of thier forms. I could point out many, many instances of indiocy on these forums. Take your time to get to know the community before juding it from a few topics. As for the admins, get to know teh admins better to. If the server constantly has admins abusing thier power, then find a new one.
I know for certain that G4B2S tries thier best to stop admins from abusing thier power. We had a problem with one admin before, but by taking it to the head admin, it was solved quickly. As well, some of it is all in good fun. Like some of our admins will start building alien tfs and alien ips and alien turrets when teh aliens have clearly lost. Yes, it's hacking the game, but it's funny. And the aliens have nothign better to do while the marines take thier time setting up seiges and such. Giving a JP to teh last marine alive so he can try to run it also entertaining. Some people lose sight of teh fact that this is a game, and even if you play competitively, you should play to have fun.
I hated those guys.
The Cri guys were always killing everyone, spawncamping, and LMGing the hive to death, the eve guys were always ramboing and killing everyone, then spawncamping. The ReD guys, well, we all just hated mulock. During 2.0x I went around hating anyone with a vet tag. anyone who came around doing really well and trying to tell everyone that they were wrong was stupid... And redline, from old EpX... he would always bhop around and go crazy fast, eventually someone talked about how they "had that script too." from then on scripts were the devil, and they played for you.
keep in mind that I had played on the same server from 1.0x to 2.01 or so... so pretty much anyone who came into the "bubble" was shunned, if they were a vet
eventually during 3.0 beta I joined Sphere, and we made it to the CAL omega playoffs... and we were always scrimming and such... It was great because I had played with almost every person in the clan since 1.04 or 2.0... Azkar told me all about different clan stuff, since he was in BAH in the earlier season. I got scripts for myself and learned how to bhop... and finally when I started pubbing during the more laid back parts of the season, and after it ended.
All the comms were terrible, getting weapons 1 first, not handing out shotties, just doing retarded mistakes that could easily be cured if someone just talked to them. So, I tried, but they wouldnt listen to me... I had the clan tag on along with a few others in the server.
Eventually I just got fed up with having everyone in the pub server having no idea what they're doing, and not listening to anyone about anything... The other day someone said I speedhacked, since I was moving my mouse in "odd" ways while jumping, and jumping of other slopes and such... speedhacking... "exploiting the **** out of the engine"
just like I used to be...
... anyway... Im just supporting the fact that once you get in a clan, everything is just so much clearer, i myself am an example... it happened to me...
edit: pubbing, not pugging <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
read this guy's post again everyone...
His story is true for everyone I've seen who's made the conversion from pubber to clanner. Things just get much clearer... you learn a lot more about the game. I know I myself learned a lot more in my first week clanning than all my months pubbing.
I hated those guys.
The Cri guys were always killing everyone, spawncamping, and LMGing the hive to death, the eve guys were always ramboing and killing everyone, then spawncamping. The ReD guys, well, we all just hated mulock. During 2.0x I went around hating anyone with a vet tag. anyone who came around doing really well and trying to tell everyone that they were wrong was stupid... And redline, from old EpX... he would always bhop around and go crazy fast, eventually someone talked about how they "had that script too." from then on scripts were the devil, and they played for you.
keep in mind that I had played on the same server from 1.0x to 2.01 or so... so pretty much anyone who came into the "bubble" was shunned, if they were a vet
eventually during 3.0 beta I joined Sphere, and we made it to the CAL omega playoffs... and we were always scrimming and such... It was great because I had played with almost every person in the clan since 1.04 or 2.0... Azkar told me all about different clan stuff, since he was in BAH in the earlier season. I got scripts for myself and learned how to bhop... and finally when I started pubbing during the more laid back parts of the season, and after it ended.
All the comms were terrible, getting weapons 1 first, not handing out shotties, just doing retarded mistakes that could easily be cured if someone just talked to them. So, I tried, but they wouldnt listen to me... I had the clan tag on along with a few others in the server.
Eventually I just got fed up with having everyone in the pub server having no idea what they're doing, and not listening to anyone about anything... The other day someone said I speedhacked, since I was moving my mouse in "odd" ways while jumping, and jumping of other slopes and such... speedhacking... "exploiting the **** out of the engine"
just like I used to be...
... anyway... Im just supporting the fact that once you get in a clan, everything is just so much clearer, i myself am an example... it happened to me...
edit: pubbing, not pugging <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
read this guy's post again everyone...
His story is true for everyone I've seen who's made the conversion from pubber to clanner. Things just get much clearer... you learn a lot more about the game. I know I myself learned a lot more in my first week clanning than all my months pubbing. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That is because you have to, if you don't then you and your clan will fail, or call themself "Fun" clans (my definition would be a clan who has the attitude of non clanners, enters into leagues just for the hell of it, loses and reports the winning clan to the league admins) : YOU KNOW WHO YOU ARE <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
*EDIT*
Don't get me wrong, I do understand why these clans exist. Its more of an expantion of a public community than a clan.
When on a server I do not belittle anyone, or put them down if i see them as being less skilled (for want of different words) than the rest. If a commanders plan goes wrong, I don't start screaming "N00b COMM" down the mic or spam it on chat. If an alien game is looking bad, i'll try to give my input to resolve the problem, like "Instead of everyone going to save the hive, and dieing, 3 of us go get marine start, one get obs one get PG and one get arms lab". If people are looking to blame someone for the mess the game is in, I will attempt to calm the situation down, I don't mention names, I'll simply say "Someone did X, someone else did X" thats what happened (although I have had some guys start abusing me saying that i said what they did was wrong... I wasn't wanting to point fingers at that point they pointed a big one at their self then).
If an when I see an oppertunity I will take hold of it, that WILL mean being a lone marine, but with the possibility of ending the game 5 minutes later, unless i am discovered. Stealth is an important aspect of the marine game, and 7 marine together isn't going to be stealthy, im sorry, teamplay isn't routed in teamwork, but in syncronised multiple location attacks.
It's good and all to blame pubbing communities for the trouble the clan scene is having (Evil ignorant communities converting the poor uneducated mindless pubbers by the dozens everyday! Stop them!), but you might want to take a look at what is being offered, and if people want to take it. Apparently, clan play is not the pinnacle of gaming, is not the end-all playstyle that everyone just <b>has</b> to get involved in, or else it would be doing better. People are seeing what these competitive communities have to offer, and they aren't being impressed enough to go ahead and join. Many are probably getting all they want already.
The arguments and facts you are presenting obviously aren't enough to change people's minds. Are they just blind jackasses unable to see the brilliance in what you are saying, or are you simply giving your own views way too much importance? I'm getting a strong feeling of "It's so unbeatable they have to agree with it, or they are ignorant!" coming off alot of what you say. An attitude like that isn't going to help you or anyone else's cause out much, imho.
People are seeing what these competitive communities have to offer, and they aren't being impressed enough to go ahead and join. Many are probably getting all they want already.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Maybe they believe in arrogance that they are truely above clan play, maybe they aren't impressed, or maybe they are intimidated by it, having a lack of confidence in their self.
Seems to me however alot of the pubbers are in CS clans, and use NS as a side game, so arent looking for a clan in NS at all, and being from CS we then get "h4x", "n00b", "script0r" and countless other ways to justify themself getting killed by someone else.
The one with the more people beliving gorgedancing is okay and good. the more people you have spreading the word. thus aliviating, or help aleviating the wide spreed fire that is ignorance.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That would be perfect! There would be balance, both sides would be heard, etc. Unfortunately in my hypothetical world, no one had bothered to set up a "pro-gorgedance" server, because unlike the one server that banned battlegorges, no one else even thought about it much <!--emo&:0--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wow.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wow.gif' /><!--endemo--> . The issue "Is gorgedancing cheating" first came up when players that based their views of the game on the opinions of that one server's admins; before that, no one really gave a crap.
And yes, gorgedancing and battlegorging were just used to replace scripting in my little analogy. It wasn't about the act debated, it was about players' reactions to it.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->So far both sides have vallid points....But this is not a black and white topic. its more gray than some realize. and the answer is in the grey areas.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Isn't it always *rollseyes*....
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-Forlon+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Forlon)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->"It's my server therefore I can run it however I want to."<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It used to even have that adituide and it become unpopular because of it. now its alot better by reworking the system and we get some amazingly fun games now. which inturn made more people join<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
psst, that's not Forlorn's opinion, that was Necrotic's <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
And Forlorn, bigger fonts don't get your point across better. <!--emo&::marine::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/marine.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='marine.gif' /><!--endemo-->
btw "gorgedancing" is basically battlegorging with style. Bunnyhopping + spitting + using obstacles to run out their clip, etc.
[edit]
And Ness, remember, there is quite a difference from having apathy with clan members (not being one myself I really shouldn't care about simple apathy) and outright hating on clan members. You can hate on individuals, you might even be able to hate on entire clans, but the very fact that people hate clanners enough to call the entire group hackers and cheaters is very very bad. Do you see such outcries in any other mod? No, clanners are actually respected in most other games (at least the well-known, non-sucky clans...). So it's not just a question of "clanners vs. pubs" either, there's something unique about NS - or about NS servers - that is causing this problem.
It's a product of both sides sucking, really. Some clan members are just a <i>tad</i> elitist, some pub server admins and/or veterans are just a <i>tad</i> biased against them, and neither side is really willing to admit the other might actually have a valid position.
Yes, but I was banned, and my play on G4B2S isn't what this post is about really. It's more about how you guys lock my thread about mp_bs on your forums. It's not even about wether mp_bs is good or not, it's about you guys refusing to view the evidence.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Firstly, to all teh people who do this: I don't appreciate you lumping all pubbers into 1 giant category. We are not all ignorant as you think. We do not all res****, we do not all rambo. Many of us have good understanding of tactics and strategy. Do not take the couple of WORST PLAYERS form the WORST GAMES and apply all their WORST TRAITS to all pubbers. Yes, all these ancedotes are fine, but realize that all these are just the worst experiences peopel have had. No-one will tell you about the time the team listened to teh com, or the time the aliens didn't res **** and got that hive up in 3-4 mins, as well as put up and defended thier rts.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Nobody is lumping pubbers together, I've always tried to say 'some' before anything I say that can be considered a generalisation.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Nadagast: Now to the main point you put up about the scripts. WE KNOW WHAT THEY ARE. WE KNOW WHAT THEY DO. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
NO. YOU DON'T. Do I need to bring quotes from the G4B2S forums that explicitly show this? I know Hieyeck explicitly thinks that a script that bunny hops for you exists. He also believes wallstrafing is an exploit. If you knew what they were, you guys would've been able to make a coherent response to my thread instead of "SCRIPT BAD, CLOSE THREAD." (no offense)
This insane anti-script thing is ridiculous. Look at this everyone:
<a href='http://guns4back2school.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=7073' target='_blank'>http://guns4back2school.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=7073</a>
The guy posts a thread about scripts that work with mp_bs 1, and are totally fair, and in no way unbalance gameplay. It is locked because "SCRIPT BAD, CLOSE THREAD." Please, tell me you know something about scripts? I don't believe it.
I've since asked fubu to play some pugs and maybe join the clan scene. It seems he would be far better off here than there.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->From the words of admins on that server, we choose to disallow them because we cater to the general public. Not everyone is good enough so scripts dont' mean much at all. I know the overhyped blink-swipe script actaully sucks badly to any player who knows how to fade decently. We prefer that people not be lazy and use such scripts to become a mediocre fade, or use a triple-jump to help bunny hop. We know scripts cannot replace skill. But we prefer that you do nto use scripts to help you do things like bunnyhop, and prefer that if you want to bunnyhop, you do it yourself, with your own skill, and not get aid from a script.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You don't know what scripts do. The end. Your points are all moot. I even made a huge post explaining EXACTLY what a 3jump does and you guys reply "SCRIPT BAD," with the exact same vigor. Hero (don't make me go get quotes) just kept spouting off the same "we feel scripts are unfair, the player should press each key himself, not have it automated," even AFTER my huge long post. He literally just kept saying it! I guess if he keeps saying it, it might come true?
BTW, like I SAID ALREADY in the huge post, it's not possible to bhop in a real server (fps and lag varying) w/o mwheel or 3jump. It's not replacing skill, it's ADDING a skill level to the game.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Nadagast: In addition, you kept stating repeatedly that scripts were A CONVENIENCE. Teh only other things you kept doing were trying to prove we were ignorant about scripting. I know most scripting is harmless, but it being "convenient" to have scripts was NOT seen as a good enough reason to enable scripts.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I repeatedly stated that SOME (ok every script in existance except 2) SCRIPTS are a convenience. Like SOME FOOD is bagels, some is hamburgers.
We've already been over this. If my argument is true: Scripts aren't bad, then WHY NOT turn off mp_bs? I don't understand. Like I've said 3 times before: mp_bs 0 would dominate mp_bs 1.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->In fact, having mp_blockscripts enabled allows people to immeadiately shoot down all those pubbers you seem to have a problem with. They yell SCRIPTOR, and we just tell them blockscripts is enabled. It creates a better and more fun environment.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
How ironic. The lack of education of the players justifies the lack of education by the admins? I don't think so.
Turn off mp_bs and tell your players that scripts aren't bad (tell them to go read a guide if they disagree). It's that simple.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The clanner hate from most of the pubbers comes from the the fact some clanners/vets go on server and immeadiately disregard everything they preach, and then bad-mouth the team for not being able to aim, or placing ocs. They rambo, and they might get some insane K:D ratio and kill lots of alien rts, but they dont' listen to the com either, and they they put on a I'm better than all you guys. "Look, I killed 30 of them and only died 5 times, and took out 4 rts. Why cant' you guys help me here?" That comes across are being very arrogant and being a total ****.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Oh GOD FORBID someone asks the team to not drop OCs. They are totally arrogant.
How is this different from random person Y coming on the server and saying the exact same thing? Oh right they have a vet tag, so you can stereotype them. NICE.
Like I've said before: Don't hate a group because a few of them are ****. Hate the individual.
Also you realize that 90% of the clan tags I see on pubs are just random tags, clans who aren't in CAL, on IRC, and never scrim. Clans with 2 buddies in them.
FURTHER, you realize that, a few months ago, any random 6 people with an e-mail address could get veteran right? I think your point is pretty much moot.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I know not all clanners do that, but the few who do make a bad impression. It's the same with pubbers. The few who call hacks or scripts every time someone with skill comes on gives a bad name to pubbers.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's not the "few" who call hacks or scripts. It's the "many." I was banned from your server and I believe I've had as many as 9 people spectating me at once. I'm fairly sure that at least 10 total man hours have been logged of speccing me on your server. Just face it, pubbers and admins alike are not good at determining wether a clanner is hacking or not... after all, we come from a different world. I'm not blaming you, just HAVE SOME RESPECT. If someone is in a CAL-Delta clan, they most likely do not cheat. It's the inability to respect CAL or learn from past mistakes that I have a problem with. It happens on almost every pub.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Nadagast: In addition, we are open minded. We reopened the topic for you to state your views. But you didn't seem to try to see it from our side either. It's a pub that we run. We cater to the general pub audience. You didnt' state any reasons how unblocking scripts would benefit our community/servers. We stated that having it enabled would benefit pubbers, because they could play and see that scripts didnt' increase skill. And not have to bother doing all that in-depth research into scripts to satisfy thier minds, when some of them only play a couple hours a week. In our view, blocking scripts has made the server more public friendly, and has furthered our goals.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You re-opened the topic after I made this 10+ page post... and you re-locked it after nothing happened.
I do try to see it from your side. However, when you make arguments that are as weak as "script bad! it does things for you!" I can't really be swayed. Not to mention the fact that you guys repeatedly and doggedly ignore any evidence I present in favor of scripting.
What, the most educated and most skilled community in the game is all for scripts? BAH.
What, the biggest and most competetive NS league is all for scripts? Means nothing.
What, every single pubber who has converted to clanner is now adamantly pro-script? WHO CARES?
The fact is, if you guys even had a clue as to what scripts can/cannot do, there'd be a chance I would be swayed by your arguments. However, the thread makes it clear to me that you guys just <b>do. not. know.</b> Not only that, you refuse to listen. Before you say no, SEE HIEYECK'S reply, after my big post. He says, and I quote:
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Take me as an example: Just as a skulk, i know i'm fairly good if i get up close - i can wipe out 5 marines in a pack, but i also know that when coming down long corridors (i'm usually already in teh red if i get that close and only manage to kill about 2 marines), i'm not the best at evading. now wouldn't you fell gipped if i loaded a bhop script (or your 3jump) and closed the distance in half the time? its not a skill i earned by practicing, but it sure made me at least 200% more effective. i know i would be **** if that happened, and that is why me and many of the community feel that scripts aren't good for this PUB server.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Okay, that's nice. Ignoring his rather smug attitude (I'm absolutely positive he would get <b>destroyed</b> by real players (Not implying that I am a 'real player')). I assumed he was talking about a 3jump, and somehow missed my huge post explaining what 3jump does (aka it doesn't bhop for you). So I reply:
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->For example, Hieyeck still believing that if he was given a 3jump, he could suddenly bhop. He couldn't. You would need to learn how to bhop first.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
SO THEN HE REPLIES (THIS IS FUNNY GUYS):
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->i'm not saying 3jumping is bhopping... read and achieve.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->now wouldn't you fell gipped if i loaded a bhop script (or your 3jump)<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--><!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So he has the balls to tell me read and achieve, yet at the same time adamantly believes that a script that bunny hops for you exists. I'm amazed. THIS IS WHAT I AM TALKING ABOUT. READ IT OVER AND OVER, UNTIL IT SINKS IN, PLEASE.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->To the people bad-mouthing admins on servers, and showing the "idiocy" of thier forms. I could point out many, many instances of indiocy on these forums. Take your time to get to know the community before juding it from a few topics. As for the admins, get to know teh admins better to. If the server constantly has admins abusing thier power, then find a new one.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The admins don't get a chance to know me, because I'M WRONG, AND IF I DON'T LIKE IT, I CAN LEAVE <BANNED>.
Also, it's incredibly hypocritical for you to say "just get to know the admins, they are nice guys really!" and at the same time say "vets are bad people because some of them decided to be mean to us." SURELY you can see the... uhm.... irony?
Last, I know that I can find a new one. That doesn't educate the admins about their wrong ways though does it? It seems you're telling us to not fix the problem, just put a bandage over it. Besides, it's not like there is some HUGE amount of NS servers to play on. Late at night, I usually get 10 or less that are not full, not empty, not PW'd, and have less than 100 ping.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I know for certain that G4B2S tries thier best to stop admins from abusing thier power. We had a problem with one admin before, but by taking it to the head admin, it was solved quickly. As well, some of it is all in good fun. Like some of our admins will start building alien tfs and alien ips and alien turrets when teh aliens have clearly lost. Yes, it's hacking the game, but it's funny. And the aliens have nothign better to do while the marines take thier time setting up seiges and such. Giving a JP to teh last marine alive so he can try to run it also entertaining. Some people lose sight of teh fact that this is a game, and even if you play competitively, you should play to have fun.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Right, you guys sure do curb those admins powers. I was banned from your IRC channel because someone asked what wallstrafing was, and I told them. Later, I was banned for asking to discuss scripts. Hey I'll post the entire PM log between Heiyeck and me, if you want. I'm sitting there talking nicely and he gets all heated and starts yelling at me. In this, he says that changing cl_rate is a speedhack.
<Hieyeck> there are PLENTY of more severe exploits, such as faking lag to "speedhack".
<Hieyeck> if cl_rate is low enough, you fake lag
While it can make you sort of teleport around and be hard to hit... it is in no way a speedhack.
Finally, realize that several of your admins with open minds agree with me. About scripting, about your closed-mindedness, etc. If you don't want to listen to me, LISTEN TO THEM.
Or we could always just say F them, F CAL, F clanners, F education, F evidence, F anything that doesn't support our viewpoint. We're right, like it or get out.
Do you have to use scripts? No.
Do you have to learn a whole lot more about the game? Yes.
Do you have to use scripts? No.
Do you have to learn a whole lot more about the game? Yes. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Exactly what i meant..
and they have every right to do so because they pay for the server and if you think someone devoting their <b>money</b> for you to play a <b>game</b> doesn't give them that right you've obviously never worked a day in your life and live in your parent's basement
i don't use any scripts (for <b>anything</b> -- i don't have medpack/ammo request scripts, 3jump, pistol, or anything else)
i completely support blockscripts 1
yet i frequently get banned from servers with blockscripts on while running cheating death because i'm "using an aim script" or "wallhacking"
however i <b>still</b> do not come here and post about how people are ignorant and they need to know everything that i know because clearly i know more than them, because if that's what they choose to believe, then so be it. claiming you will change everyone's mind and inform the masses of something they really can't be bothered to care about because <b>not everyone is as obsessive over this computer game as you are</b> is so incredibly short-sighted i'm amazed that you continue to press the issue
starting this thread which insults and spits all over many people who run and administrate servers, whether they are "ignorant" (in your opinion) or not, is no more mature than the actions of the individual who said he was going to "hack" your computer
trying to generalize problems you have so that they apply to all of natural selection and going so far as to say that they are the things ruining the game is not only absurd -- it's pathetic
i named for you the actual problems this game has; this thread now serves as nothing more than a self-indulgent flamefest for those who think that they're better than those on "the other side of the fence" and arguing common sense back and forth ad nauseum
<!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
BLAST RENNEX HAS FOUND ME OUT
Seriously though I can't help myself. I need to get help. <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/sad-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->