<!--QuoteBegin-AvengerX+Mar 14 2005, 04:58 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (AvengerX @ Mar 14 2005, 04:58 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> science is baised agaisnt faith. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> This is pretty common among creationists, the "everybody is out to get us" syndrome. Let me tell you, science has better things to do then spend its time trying to make you look like a fool.
<!--QuoteBegin-SkulkBait+Mar 14 2005, 05:06 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (SkulkBait @ Mar 14 2005, 05:06 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-AvengerX+Mar 14 2005, 04:58 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (AvengerX @ Mar 14 2005, 04:58 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> science is baised agaisnt faith. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> This is pretty common amoung creationists, the "everybody is out to get us" syndrome. Let me tell you, science has better things to do then spend its time trying to make you look like a fool. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> no ones out to get me, if anything your the one in danger. romans were kicking christian but for a little while. but now a days its totally non-believers that get their butts handed to them on a plate
look at isreal and palastine. in the OT it shows us that isreal is the birthright and not palastine. so I'm glad were backing them (by were I mean the US.)
<!--QuoteBegin-AvengerX+Mar 14 2005, 05:09 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (AvengerX @ Mar 14 2005, 05:09 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-SkulkBait+Mar 14 2005, 05:06 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (SkulkBait @ Mar 14 2005, 05:06 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-AvengerX+Mar 14 2005, 04:58 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (AvengerX @ Mar 14 2005, 04:58 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> science is baised agaisnt faith. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> This is pretty common amoung creationists, the "everybody is out to get us" syndrome. Let me tell you, science has better things to do then spend its time trying to make you look like a fool. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> no ones out to get me, if anything your the one in danger. romans were kicking christian but for a little while. but now a days its totally non-believers that get their butts handed to them on a plate
look at isreal and palastine. in the OT it shows us that isreal is the birthright and not palastine. so I'm glad were backing them (by were I mean the US.) <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> WHAT THE **** DOES THAT HAVE TO DO WITH ANYTHING!?
I heard about an experiement in which they were trying to simulate the environment during life formation on earth, an environment known to ahve lots of methane, carbon dioxide, and some water, along with a few other simple things.
They discovered that with the addition of some lightning and periodic evaporation/resaturation organic molecules of proteins and lipids were formed!
the evaporation/resaturation was important to solidify cell wall structures. This is believed to be caused by tidal pools that only a sufficiently large moon can create.
Occasionally mars was believed to have microorganism-like structure fossils, they have not been studied sufficiently to say that mars has microorganisms without a moon.
It seems that he's using the moon arguement to lead in to the arguement that, "Its so hard for life to exist, there must be a god for there to be a planet so perfect for life."
<!--QuoteBegin-Mantrid+Mar 14 2005, 06:55 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Mantrid @ Mar 14 2005, 06:55 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> It seems that he's using the moon arguement to lead in to the arguement that, "Its so hard for life to exist, there must be a god for there to be a planet so perfect for life." <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Which is kind of funny, because the early planet, as I understand it, was actually fairly poisonous to life because it contained high levels of hydrogen peroxide, which is toxic. One of the reasons hydrogen peroxide is so reletively rare today is that early organisms evolved an enzyme to break it down really quickly. So the more life there was on the planet, the less peroxide there was. Of course most (all?) life still has this enzyme, which doesn't make sense in a creationist viewpoint because why would we need it unless peroxide was, at one time, much more prevelent then it is now?
In fact that is a form of the Anthropic Principle, it states that The world is the way it is because if it wasnt we would see it in whatever way it would then be instead.
Basically everything aroud earth and on earth points coincidentally towards the creation of intellient life, but thats because if it wasnt we wouldnt be here to ask these questions or notice it.
therefore, everywhere where there is life, will be in a life-supporting environment. its basically selection errors of the test group. anthropic-principle.com puts it nicely: <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->How big is the smallest fish in the pond? You catch one hundred fishes, all of which are greater than six inches. Does this evidence support the hypothesis that no fish in the pond is much less than six inches long? Not if your net can’t catch smaller fish.
Knowledge about limitations of your data collection process affects what inferences you can draw from the data.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is the same reason we cannot have a scientific discussion of religion, God is outside the scope of everything in our universe, logic included, and therefore we cannot use logic to reason for or against His existance. He is best left ENTIRELY OUTSIDE OF THESE FORUMS.
Nukable: My dad beleives God created evolution, evolution created humans with his help. I believe God is physics, physics created evolution, and evolution created humans with no ones help.
<!--QuoteBegin-Zel+Mar 14 2005, 04:29 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Zel @ Mar 14 2005, 04:29 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> In fact that is a form of the Anthropic Principle, it states that The world is the way it is because if it wasnt we would see it in whatever way it would then be instead. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Thats exactly what I was getting at.
And I do like how your dad has meshed religion and rationale. Now, I don't exactly subscribe to religion, but I won't deny it completely. Which is why I'm agnostic rather than atheist. I realized a god can exist for the very same reason it doesn't have to.
<!--QuoteBegin-AvengerX+Mar 14 2005, 04:58 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (AvengerX @ Mar 14 2005, 04:58 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-theclam+Mar 14 2005, 04:57 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (theclam @ Mar 14 2005, 04:57 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-AvengerX+Mar 14 2005, 04:50 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (AvengerX @ Mar 14 2005, 04:50 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> the point that just because someone is a scientist doesn't make them unbais. I mean Scientistists have been tools of politics for ages now. and they will allways have their little agendas. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> You're right. Individual scientists are biased. However, every serious scientific theory goes through a huge amount of peer review. They remove any bias from a theory. Scientists are biased. Science isn't biased. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> science is baised agaisnt faith. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Actually science isn't biased against anything. If anything, science is biased towards truth. That's why you think science is biased against faith, because faith is biased against truth.
BTW, Avenger, how are you coming on that post I asked you to make?
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> It seems that he's using the moon arguement to lead in to the arguement that, "Its so hard for life to exist, there must be a god for there to be a planet so perfect for life."<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Actually, a more compelling argument would not be for our planet per se, but for the fact that our universe has certain mathematical constants and physical laws that are set in just the right way so that life can form. That's obviously true, otherwise there would be no life. That still doesn't suggest that there is a god, however.
<!--QuoteBegin-Zel+Mar 14 2005, 07:29 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Zel @ Mar 14 2005, 07:29 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Nukable: My dad beleives God created evolution, evolution created humans with his help. I believe God is physics, physics created evolution, and evolution created humans with no ones help. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Your dad, (and yourself) might enjoy Kenneth Miller's Finding Darwin's God. Miller is a biologist who is a very very harsh critic of intelligent design and creationism. But he's also a devout Catholic. He outlines in an excellent book not only why creationism is scientific bunk, but also why it is a threat to _religion_, and that in many ways, a universe in which there is contingent evolution is much BETTER for Christian theology because it would allow for a creation indepedant of God's direct will... and hence the only sort where intelligent beings like humans could have truly free choices, which is what God wants.
Apos, i was just wondering if you have read "Dismantling Evolution, Building the case for Intelligent design" by Ralph O. Muncaster? does this book have any worth in your view? its been like a bit hit by all the religous people i know, the book has facts throughout it(REAL FACTS). But at the same time he's biasing those facts with his own opinion, making his opinion seem like facts also. I've heard of this type of writing from my chem teacher(hes not a big fan of it). just wondering if this book holds any merrit in the eyes of a far more scientically knowledgeable person.
[EDIT] and please for sanity and convience sake, is it possible to just ban/susspend a member from just a topic. i've gone through reading this WHOLE topic. and wasted like 7 pages on AvengerX's religious arguments(WHICH ARENT EVEN SUPPOSE TO BE POSTED!) while trying to glean some useful informative information from the disscussion Apos is providing(which i might add is very neeto). I mean i can understand making a point, but the trolling for 1/2 the posts is a bit much. Were here to talk about EVOLUTION, not religion. and it makes it really hard to follow the disscussion forum rule #6 when there is 7 pages of nonsense for every <b><i>1</i></b> useful post. and as interesting as this topic is, it will only make it harder as it goes on.
Here's an excerpt of the book that LoDwkeef cited: <a href='http://www.beliefnet.com/story/127/story_12717_1.html' target='_blank'>http://www.beliefnet.com/story/127/story_12717_1.html</a>
If he's correct that life is highly improbably statistically, then I don't see how that makes the existence of God any more likely than other alternatives. It may suggest a multiverse system or a recurring big bang-big crunch (I've read about this in Scientific American recently, although I thought I read a few years ago that the universe was supposed to keep expanding forever) system.
I suspect that his equations are for the likelihood that the existence of humans and the Earth, rather than for the existence of life in the universe. Since we only have a sample size of 1 to work with and we haven't explored any other planets to know if there is life, or if there is life, how it works, we don't really know what are the exact prerequisites for life.
I haven't read anymore about his book than that excerpt and a few articles I looked at in google (almost everything I can find is from heavily biased religious and creationist websites; I can't find any evolution advocates discussing his book), so I'm not sure what his exact argument is.
well one thing I noticed when reading was he kept referenceing to comparing theories/science/evolution to this beam of cement(dont ask dont know). he refers to theories/science/evolution being the beam, and if everything isnt right with it, 1 crack(missing fact, wrong fact) then the whole thing breaks and falls(the whole idea/concept fails). Now theories/science/evolution isnt 100% solid, theres breaks and missing links, unknown information. But that doesnt mean that its ALL wrong correct?
[EDIT] that is his most basic point throught the book, all the other stuff is just like "probability of the random origin of the first living cell, Mutations:the faulty mechinism, etc, etc"
No biologist claims that there are some unanswered questions about evolution. Still, they don't claim that the theory is wrong. Newton's Theories can be seen as a concrete beam, in the same way. There were cracks in it that resulted in a whole new theory. Newton's Theories are still so close to correct that they are still used by engineers today in almost every field (GPS technology being a notable exception, you have to compensate for relativistic effects there). I think that concrete beam analogy isn't correct.
Well, I'm not sure what the crticism is there. There are indeed plenty of things we don't know about the history of life on earth. But to suggest that that means evolution isn't an established fact is like claiming that because we don't know exactly or everything how a fertilized egg develops into a human being, we don't understand the basic overview or even quite a lot of the fine detail.
I've heard arguments trying to calculate the probability of various early precursors to life (no one thinks that cells simply sprung into existence fully formed!), but these are usually ridiculous. First of all, we don't know what the early precusors to life were, so there is no way to calculate anything specifically. But second of all, any process that would have led to complex organic compounds can't possibly be modeled by a random equation! That's just silly. That's like saying that just because it would be wildly improbable for water molecules to end up in a highly symetrical shape by pure random ordering, thus snowflakes can't form. Natural processes are combinations of both randomness AND particular ordered processes.
<!--QuoteBegin-AvengerX+Mar 14 2005, 08:51 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (AvengerX @ Mar 14 2005, 08:51 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> don't question Evoltion. just conform buddy, its like preaching to zombies. its not gonna change anything. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> YOU'RE NOT DIFFERENT!!
You're blindly accepting religion as truth because someone told you to! They've planted the fear that if you don't listen to them, and don't do what they tell you to, you'll be tortured forever!
Know what'd you'd get if you applied this to something other than religion? At the very least, a cult. At the most, an opressive, totalitarian, fascist state.
<!--QuoteBegin-AvengerX+Mar 14 2005, 11:51 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (AvengerX @ Mar 14 2005, 11:51 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> don't question Evoltion. just conform buddy, its like preaching to zombies. its not gonna change anything. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Wow. AvengerX posts criticizing evolution. We counter post. He gives these kinds of statements instead of actually defending his original points.
Take a look at yourself, buddy. Think about whether this applies to you.
<!--QuoteBegin-AvengerX+Mar 14 2005, 11:56 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (AvengerX @ Mar 14 2005, 11:56 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> all my evidence requires spiritual insight.... <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> That's why your points aren't valid. You can't prove an argument through spirituality, you can only prove it through rational methods. This isn't philosophy, AvengerX, it's biology.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->and seeing how a man dying of thirst can't drink sand<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I'm not sure what you mean by this.
<!--QuoteBegin-Mantrid+Mar 14 2005, 11:54 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Mantrid @ Mar 14 2005, 11:54 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-AvengerX+Mar 14 2005, 08:51 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (AvengerX @ Mar 14 2005, 08:51 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> don't question Evoltion. just conform buddy, its like preaching to zombies. its not gonna change anything. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> YOU'RE NOT DIFFERENT!!
You're blindly accepting religion as truth because someone told you to! They've planted the fear that if you don't listen to them, and don't do what they tell you to, you'll be tortured forever!
Know what'd you'd get if you applied this to something other than religion? At the very least, a cult. At the most, an opressive, totalitarian, fascist state. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> um, actually religion is considered a cult, but people dont appriciate other people calling it that(i dont care FYI, just letting you know)
[EDIT] and please stop feeding the troll,
...CAGEY I SEE YOU READING THIS! please stop the religous zealot from trolling the evolution topic hes made the topic increase 7 posts in the past 14 min
<!--QuoteBegin-Mantrid+Mar 14 2005, 11:54 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Mantrid @ Mar 14 2005, 11:54 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-AvengerX+Mar 14 2005, 08:51 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (AvengerX @ Mar 14 2005, 08:51 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> don't question Evoltion. just conform buddy, its like preaching to zombies. its not gonna change anything. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> YOU'RE NOT DIFFERENT!!
You're blindly accepting religion as truth because someone told you to! They've planted the fear that if you don't listen to them, and don't do what they tell you to, you'll be tortured forever!
Know what'd you'd get if you applied this to something other than religion? At the very least, a cult. At the most, an opressive, totalitarian, fascist state. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I don't blindly believe. I've studied long and hard. read threw the scriptures. lots of prayer and fast. and I've gained a testimony that its true. I didn't just listen to my parents.
James 1:5 says that if any of you lack wisdom let him ask of god.....
and so I did (threw prayer) and after a spiritual expierences which I won't reveal unto you at this time because its near and dear to my heart and a rather sacred subject.... I Know my church is true. and while people like you can't really understand it. its ok
<!--QuoteBegin-AvengerX+Mar 15 2005, 12:02 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (AvengerX @ Mar 15 2005, 12:02 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> what I'm saying. is spiritual rightous people such as myself<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> You may be spiritual, but you certainly are one of the least righteous christians I've ever had to deal with.
<!--QuoteBegin-SkulkBait+Mar 15 2005, 12:07 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (SkulkBait @ Mar 15 2005, 12:07 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-AvengerX+Mar 15 2005, 12:02 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (AvengerX @ Mar 15 2005, 12:02 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> what I'm saying. is spiritual rightous people such as myself<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> You may be spiritual, but you certainly are one of the least righteous christians I've ever had to deal with. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> correction... you don't HAVE to deal with me, your doing all of this by your own free will nobody put a gun to your head and told you "Skulk bait! plague theese forums with your stupidity!!!"
<!--QuoteBegin-AvengerX+Mar 15 2005, 12:08 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (AvengerX @ Mar 15 2005, 12:08 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-SkulkBait+Mar 15 2005, 12:07 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (SkulkBait @ Mar 15 2005, 12:07 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-AvengerX+Mar 15 2005, 12:02 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (AvengerX @ Mar 15 2005, 12:02 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> what I'm saying. is spiritual rightous people such as myself<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> You may be spiritual, but you certainly are one of the least righteous christians I've ever had to deal with. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> correction... you don't HAVE to deal with me, your doing all of this by your own free will nobody put a gun to your head and told you "Skulk bait! plague theese forums with your stupidity!!!" <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> fair enough. You're still not even remotely righteous. And despite being asked to shut up, since your input is useless AND violates the forum rules, you continue to plaugue us with your ****.
<!--QuoteBegin-AvengerX+Mar 15 2005, 12:06 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (AvengerX @ Mar 15 2005, 12:06 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Mantrid+Mar 14 2005, 11:54 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Mantrid @ Mar 14 2005, 11:54 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-AvengerX+Mar 14 2005, 08:51 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (AvengerX @ Mar 14 2005, 08:51 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> don't question Evoltion. just conform buddy, its like preaching to zombies. its not gonna change anything. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> YOU'RE NOT DIFFERENT!!
You're blindly accepting religion as truth because someone told you to! They've planted the fear that if you don't listen to them, and don't do what they tell you to, you'll be tortured forever!
Know what'd you'd get if you applied this to something other than religion? At the very least, a cult. At the most, an opressive, totalitarian, fascist state. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I don't blindly believe. I've studied long and hard. read threw the scriptures. lots of prayer and fast. and I've gained a testimony that its true. I didn't just listen to my parents.
James 1:5 says that if any of you lack wisdom let him ask of god.....
and so I did (threw prayer) and after a spiritual expierences which I won't reveal unto you at this time because its near and dear to my heart and a rather sacred subject.... I Know my church is true. and while people like you can't really understand it. its ok <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I'm sure your prayer told you that evolution is untrue, right?
<!--QuoteBegin-SkulkBait+Mar 15 2005, 12:09 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (SkulkBait @ Mar 15 2005, 12:09 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-AvengerX+Mar 15 2005, 12:08 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (AvengerX @ Mar 15 2005, 12:08 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-SkulkBait+Mar 15 2005, 12:07 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (SkulkBait @ Mar 15 2005, 12:07 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-AvengerX+Mar 15 2005, 12:02 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (AvengerX @ Mar 15 2005, 12:02 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> what I'm saying. is spiritual rightous people such as myself<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> You may be spiritual, but you certainly are one of the least righteous christians I've ever had to deal with. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> correction... you don't HAVE to deal with me, your doing all of this by your own free will nobody put a gun to your head and told you "Skulk bait! plague theese forums with your stupidity!!!" <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> fair enough. You're still not even remotely righteous. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> how so?
Comments
This is pretty common among creationists, the "everybody is out to get us" syndrome. Let me tell you, science has better things to do then spend its time trying to make you look like a fool.
This is pretty common amoung creationists, the "everybody is out to get us" syndrome. Let me tell you, science has better things to do then spend its time trying to make you look like a fool. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
no ones out to get me, if anything your the one in danger. romans were kicking christian but for a little while. but now a days its totally non-believers that get their butts handed to them on a plate
look at isreal and palastine. in the OT it shows us that isreal is the birthright and not palastine. so I'm glad were backing them (by were I mean the US.)
This is pretty common amoung creationists, the "everybody is out to get us" syndrome. Let me tell you, science has better things to do then spend its time trying to make you look like a fool. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
no ones out to get me, if anything your the one in danger. romans were kicking christian but for a little while. but now a days its totally non-believers that get their butts handed to them on a plate
look at isreal and palastine. in the OT it shows us that isreal is the birthright and not palastine. so I'm glad were backing them (by were I mean the US.) <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
WHAT THE **** DOES THAT HAVE TO DO WITH ANYTHING!?
They discovered that with the addition of some lightning and periodic evaporation/resaturation organic molecules of proteins and lipids were formed!
the evaporation/resaturation was important to solidify cell wall structures. This is believed to be caused by tidal pools that only a sufficiently large moon can create.
Occasionally mars was believed to have microorganism-like structure fossils, they have not been studied sufficiently to say that mars has microorganisms without a moon.
/everyone remember to stop feeding the troll
Which is kind of funny, because the early planet, as I understand it, was actually fairly poisonous to life because it contained high levels of hydrogen peroxide, which is toxic. One of the reasons hydrogen peroxide is so reletively rare today is that early organisms evolved an enzyme to break it down really quickly. So the more life there was on the planet, the less peroxide there was. Of course most (all?) life still has this enzyme, which doesn't make sense in a creationist viewpoint because why would we need it unless peroxide was, at one time, much more prevelent then it is now?
Basically everything aroud earth and on earth points coincidentally towards the creation of intellient life, but thats because if it wasnt we wouldnt be here to ask these questions or notice it.
therefore, everywhere where there is life, will be in a life-supporting environment. its basically selection errors of the test group. anthropic-principle.com puts it nicely:
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->How big is the smallest fish in the pond? You catch one hundred fishes, all of which are greater than six inches. Does this evidence support the hypothesis that no fish in the pond is much less than six inches long? Not if your net can’t catch smaller fish.
Knowledge about limitations of your data collection process affects what inferences you can draw from the data.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is the same reason we cannot have a scientific discussion of religion, God is outside the scope of everything in our universe, logic included, and therefore we cannot use logic to reason for or against His existance. He is best left ENTIRELY OUTSIDE OF THESE FORUMS.
Nukable:
My dad beleives God created evolution, evolution created humans with his help. I believe God is physics, physics created evolution, and evolution created humans with no ones help.
Thats exactly what I was getting at.
And I do like how your dad has meshed religion and rationale. Now, I don't exactly subscribe to religion, but I won't deny it completely. Which is why I'm agnostic rather than atheist. I realized a god can exist for the very same reason it doesn't have to.
You're right. Individual scientists are biased. However, every serious scientific theory goes through a huge amount of peer review. They remove any bias from a theory. Scientists are biased. Science isn't biased. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
science is baised agaisnt faith. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Actually science isn't biased against anything. If anything, science is biased towards truth. That's why you think science is biased against faith, because faith is biased against truth.
BTW, Avenger, how are you coming on that post I asked you to make?
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> It seems that he's using the moon arguement to lead in to the arguement that, "Its so hard for life to exist, there must be a god for there to be a planet so perfect for life."<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Actually, a more compelling argument would not be for our planet per se, but for the fact that our universe has certain mathematical constants and physical laws that are set in just the right way so that life can form. That's obviously true, otherwise there would be no life. That still doesn't suggest that there is a god, however.
My dad beleives God created evolution, evolution created humans with his help. I believe God is physics, physics created evolution, and evolution created humans with no ones help. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Your dad, (and yourself) might enjoy Kenneth Miller's Finding Darwin's God. Miller is a biologist who is a very very harsh critic of intelligent design and creationism. But he's also a devout Catholic. He outlines in an excellent book not only why creationism is scientific bunk, but also why it is a threat to _religion_, and that in many ways, a universe in which there is contingent evolution is much BETTER for Christian theology because it would allow for a creation indepedant of God's direct will... and hence the only sort where intelligent beings like humans could have truly free choices, which is what God wants.
[EDIT]
and please for sanity and convience sake, is it possible to just ban/susspend a member from just a topic. i've gone through reading this WHOLE topic. and wasted like 7 pages on AvengerX's religious arguments(WHICH ARENT EVEN SUPPOSE TO BE POSTED!) while trying to glean some useful informative information from the disscussion Apos is providing(which i might add is very neeto). I mean i can understand making a point, but the trolling for 1/2 the posts is a bit much. Were here to talk about EVOLUTION, not religion. and it makes it really hard to follow the disscussion forum rule #6 when there is 7 pages of nonsense for every <b><i>1</i></b> useful post. and as interesting as this topic is, it will only make it harder as it goes on.
<a href='http://www.beliefnet.com/story/127/story_12717_1.html' target='_blank'>http://www.beliefnet.com/story/127/story_12717_1.html</a>
If he's correct that life is highly improbably statistically, then I don't see how that makes the existence of God any more likely than other alternatives. It may suggest a multiverse system or a recurring big bang-big crunch (I've read about this in Scientific American recently, although I thought I read a few years ago that the universe was supposed to keep expanding forever) system.
I suspect that his equations are for the likelihood that the existence of humans and the Earth, rather than for the existence of life in the universe. Since we only have a sample size of 1 to work with and we haven't explored any other planets to know if there is life, or if there is life, how it works, we don't really know what are the exact prerequisites for life.
I haven't read anymore about his book than that excerpt and a few articles I looked at in google (almost everything I can find is from heavily biased religious and creationist websites; I can't find any evolution advocates discussing his book), so I'm not sure what his exact argument is.
[EDIT] that is his most basic point throught the book, all the other stuff is just like "probability of the random origin of the first living cell, Mutations:the faulty mechinism, etc, etc"
I've heard arguments trying to calculate the probability of various early precursors to life (no one thinks that cells simply sprung into existence fully formed!), but these are usually ridiculous. First of all, we don't know what the early precusors to life were, so there is no way to calculate anything specifically. But second of all, any process that would have led to complex organic compounds can't possibly be modeled by a random equation! That's just silly. That's like saying that just because it would be wildly improbable for water molecules to end up in a highly symetrical shape by pure random ordering, thus snowflakes can't form. Natural processes are combinations of both randomness AND particular ordered processes.
YOU'RE NOT DIFFERENT!!
You're blindly accepting religion as truth because someone told you to! They've planted the fear that if you don't listen to them, and don't do what they tell you to, you'll be tortured forever!
Know what'd you'd get if you applied this to something other than religion? At the very least, a cult. At the most, an opressive, totalitarian, fascist state.
Wow. AvengerX posts criticizing evolution. We counter post. He gives these kinds of statements instead of actually defending his original points.
Take a look at yourself, buddy. Think about whether this applies to you.
That's why your points aren't valid. You can't prove an argument through spirituality, you can only prove it through rational methods. This isn't philosophy, AvengerX, it's biology.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->and seeing how a man dying of thirst can't drink sand<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm not sure what you mean by this.
YOU'RE NOT DIFFERENT!!
You're blindly accepting religion as truth because someone told you to! They've planted the fear that if you don't listen to them, and don't do what they tell you to, you'll be tortured forever!
Know what'd you'd get if you applied this to something other than religion? At the very least, a cult. At the most, an opressive, totalitarian, fascist state. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
um, actually religion is considered a cult, but people dont appriciate other people calling it that(i dont care FYI, just letting you know)
[EDIT] and please stop feeding the troll,
...CAGEY I SEE YOU READING THIS! please stop the religous zealot from trolling the evolution topic hes made the topic increase 7 posts in the past 14 min
YOU'RE NOT DIFFERENT!!
You're blindly accepting religion as truth because someone told you to! They've planted the fear that if you don't listen to them, and don't do what they tell you to, you'll be tortured forever!
Know what'd you'd get if you applied this to something other than religion? At the very least, a cult. At the most, an opressive, totalitarian, fascist state. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't blindly believe. I've studied long and hard. read threw the scriptures. lots of prayer and fast. and I've gained a testimony that its true. I didn't just listen to my parents.
James 1:5 says that if any of you lack wisdom let him ask of god.....
and so I did (threw prayer) and after a spiritual expierences which I won't reveal unto you at this time because its near and dear to my heart and a rather sacred subject.... I Know my church is true. and while people like you can't really understand it. its ok
You may be spiritual, but you certainly are one of the least righteous christians I've ever had to deal with.
You may be spiritual, but you certainly are one of the least righteous christians I've ever had to deal with. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
correction... you don't HAVE to deal with me, your doing all of this by your own free will nobody put a gun to your head and told you "Skulk bait! plague theese forums with your stupidity!!!"
You may be spiritual, but you certainly are one of the least righteous christians I've ever had to deal with. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
correction... you don't HAVE to deal with me, your doing all of this by your own free will nobody put a gun to your head and told you "Skulk bait! plague theese forums with your stupidity!!!" <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
fair enough. You're still not even remotely righteous. And despite being asked to shut up, since your input is useless AND violates the forum rules, you continue to plaugue us with your ****.
YOU'RE NOT DIFFERENT!!
You're blindly accepting religion as truth because someone told you to! They've planted the fear that if you don't listen to them, and don't do what they tell you to, you'll be tortured forever!
Know what'd you'd get if you applied this to something other than religion? At the very least, a cult. At the most, an opressive, totalitarian, fascist state. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't blindly believe. I've studied long and hard. read threw the scriptures. lots of prayer and fast. and I've gained a testimony that its true. I didn't just listen to my parents.
James 1:5 says that if any of you lack wisdom let him ask of god.....
and so I did (threw prayer) and after a spiritual expierences which I won't reveal unto you at this time because its near and dear to my heart and a rather sacred subject.... I Know my church is true. and while people like you can't really understand it. its ok <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm sure your prayer told you that evolution is untrue, right?
You may be spiritual, but you certainly are one of the least righteous christians I've ever had to deal with. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
correction... you don't HAVE to deal with me, your doing all of this by your own free will nobody put a gun to your head and told you "Skulk bait! plague theese forums with your stupidity!!!" <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
fair enough. You're still not even remotely righteous. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
how so?