<!--QuoteBegin-Grendel+Apr 11 2005, 10:56 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Grendel @ Apr 11 2005, 10:56 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I think that the number of sources, influences, versions and interpretations that are included in this thread rather supports my original post. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> The fact that there are multiple translations does not mean that there was more than one meaning intended when the original text was written.
When you read a document, you bring to it the sum of your experiences to interpret it subjectively, and the Bible is no different. The fact that some interpret certiain passages to mean things beyond the scope of the original point is a reflection of bad theology, not a bad passage.
A perfect example is Hemmingway's <u>The Old Man and the Sea.</u> Hemmingway wrote an introduction later, where he stated explicitly "There is no symbolism in The Old Man and the Sea. The old man is the old man, the boat is the boat, and the water is the water." (This is a second-hand point, but if it's incorrect then sub in Mark Twain's Huck Finn and reverse it.)
Yet, if my english teacher wants to say that he was just being sarcastic or cynical, and take everything as symbolism, that shows her ineptitude, not Hemmingway's.
<!--QuoteBegin-Legionnaired+Apr 11 2005, 12:35 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Legionnaired @ Apr 11 2005, 12:35 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Yet, if my english teacher wants to say that he was just being sarcastic or cynical, and take everything as symbolism, that shows her ineptitude, not Hemmingway's. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Not at all, so long as there is evidence to back up her interpretation.
<!--QuoteBegin-SkulkBait+Apr 11 2005, 01:36 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (SkulkBait @ Apr 11 2005, 01:36 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Legionnaired+Apr 11 2005, 12:35 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Legionnaired @ Apr 11 2005, 12:35 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Yet, if my english teacher wants to say that he was just being sarcastic or cynical, and take everything as symbolism, that shows her ineptitude, not Hemmingway's. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Not at all, so long as there is evidence to back up her interpretation. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I hardly think meager scraps of evidence gathered here and there outweighs a direct statement from the author who was known for his straightforward approach.
<!--QuoteBegin-Legionnaired+Apr 11 2005, 02:48 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Legionnaired @ Apr 11 2005, 02:48 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-SkulkBait+Apr 11 2005, 01:36 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (SkulkBait @ Apr 11 2005, 01:36 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Legionnaired+Apr 11 2005, 12:35 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Legionnaired @ Apr 11 2005, 12:35 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Yet, if my english teacher wants to say that he was just being sarcastic or cynical, and take everything as symbolism, that shows her ineptitude, not Hemmingway's. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Not at all, so long as there is evidence to back up her interpretation. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I hardly think meager scraps of evidence gathered here and there outweighs a direct statement from the author who was known for his straightforward approach. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> An author can unintentionally add subtexts to a work.
Your statements are based on the assumption that some common verbage = a ripoff.
When you yourself openly admit that doctrinally the two relgions are radically different, this is absurd. Also especially when the surrounding text is totally and completely different.
This is why I didn't bother anymore in the other thread : You assume you're right because you claim yourself to be tolerant, then you assert that your conclusions are correct, despite the overwhelming contextual and logical evidence to the contrary.
In short, aside from AvengerX, you're the worst debator I've ever seen, and that's why I'm just not going to bother with this anymore. It's simply not worth my time, and anyone who'se been watching has either ceased to care, or has already taken sides.
the similarity of religions is due to human psychology. the similarity of humans. ignoring what is real and what is not, what is true and what is not, the bible acknowledges that humans are similar in relevant ways, and indeed, I would say that all religions imply this also
the question is still if there is a god, but there is really no debating whether religions have similar elements. if they plagiarized each other or not is academic
Unfortunately as we can't solve the ultimate question we have to make do with this lesser one. Can you take the bible as <i>literal fact</i>. The answer is, as we see from this thread, no.
Unfortunately people still will and even those who acknowledge that it can't be taken literally will still continue firing quotes off at any who disagree, if only because its a great tactic for distracting people from the main point.
Why do they do it? Because in the end it's always a case of faith instead of evidence for any religious discussion which, by it's very nature, is unreasonable. However we Athiests continue to point out the flaws in the 'logic' which is being used to write the laws and choose the values we should live by and so rather than agree and say "yes, this doesn't make sense, it's god. Either you believe or you don't." they come up with lots of evidence.
I took the Pope thread off topic, my apologies. This is to what I was referring as it says at the end of the generation the end shall come to pass. Of course Revelation tells us how it ends.
36“No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.
37As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man.
38For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark;
39and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man.
40Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left.
41Two women will be grinding with a hand mill; o e will be taken and the other left. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
*edit* Broke my own quotes, and even forgot to mention where in the bible these are found. Yay for earling mornings.
I'd be wary of interjecting a word into the text, especially when most of the modern translations don't do that.
Instead, I'd look at the greek words themselves; Generation in Mt 24:34 is 'genea,' a derivative of 'genos,' which refers to a nation, country, or collective group of people. He could easily be referring to Judah, all the Israelites, or the current age as a whole. Elsewhere he speaks of the end of the world as the 'end of the age,' so this isn't too much of a streach.
<!--QuoteBegin-Legionnaired+Apr 23 2005, 10:06 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Legionnaired @ Apr 23 2005, 10:06 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I'd be wary of interjecting a word into the text, especially when most of the modern translations don't do that.
Instead, I'd look at the greek words themselves; Generation in Mt 24:34 is 'genea,' a derivative of 'genos,' which refers to a nation, country, or collective group of people. He could easily be referring to Judah, all the Israelites, or the current age as a whole. Elsewhere he speaks of the end of the world as the 'end of the age,' so this isn't too much of a streach. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Good point... good point.
<!--QuoteBegin-Cyndane+Apr 23 2005, 01:04 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Cyndane @ Apr 23 2005, 01:04 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I did not translate that, it is from your beloved NIV translation. Which I believe you have stated to be the most accurate. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Cyndane, you're missing his point, I don't think he implied that you had translated it. What he is saying is that the word "generation" is quite broad in meaning in this case. Greek isn't always easy to translate to English because Greek is a very extensive language with various ways of saying various things, some things can't even be correctly translated.
In Greek for instance, faith can be a verb. (Or perhaps this is in Hebrew, I don't remember, either way the example works.)
I faith God, doesn't sound right in English, we would translate it "I trust God" or "In God I Trust" (perhaps even "I put my faith in God") but in that translation we lose the spiritual side of the word faith as well as some intensity, while we gain a more comprehensible text.
*edit* I do also apologize for sounding so sarcastic in the previous post and I wasn't referring to you DarkAti, you have probably been the most understanding of just about anyone on this board about this issue, with the exception of Sky. */edit*
Not to pick on any one person here, but I have been told by various people that the "NIV" translation of the bible is the most accurate, (personally I disagree) and complete of any current bible translation (Using Legionaired's referenced "Strongs Lexicon" tests).
Yet when someone finds a very obvious contradiction that word suddenly means something completely different, or can be taken many different ways.
Personally, if I were to have translated that page, I would have said it referenced "race" more then generation, but obviously I don't know how to translate greek. ::rollseyes::
If we were to insert race instead of generation. It would read as follows.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> 34I tell you the truth, this race will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> AKA, the gentile race as a whole. Legionaired find a commented bible where it references the what they "think" it is on the bottom. There are a few that do this. Specifically for the NIV translation, I want to see how close I am.
I use the NASB myself, it's the most literal of the modern translations that still expresses things in a grammatically appropriate manner. (AFAIK.)
Though your point about race is well made, it only seeks to back up mine. Even still today, and most certainly back then, being of Israel and being Hebrew was somewhat interchangeable. Especially when Jesus (himself a Jew) is speaking to his Jewish followers, this translation just re-inforces the idea of a national, large-scale 'generation,' not a 30-year period between ancestors.
<!--QuoteBegin-biblegateway.com+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (biblegateway.com)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> 32"Now learn the parable from the fig tree: when its branch has already become tender and puts forth its leaves, you know that summer is near;
33so, you too, when you see all these things, recognize that He is near, right (AR)at the door.
34"Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I call horrible translation on people who don't know the langauge and are using outdated books to translate.
Either way point stands, those who are supposed to be "authorities" (Read translators) on the bible contradict themselves in the same chapter.
And, by the way, I find it interesting that you assault those who translated the works without first having ANY contextual understanding of the New Testament as a whole. Please, what are your credentials translating first century Near-East writings?
Here is the text as it appears in the greek bible. Oh yes, taken from www.greekbible.com. I should mention that.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> 34I σας λένε την αλήθεια, αυτή η <b> φυλή </b> βεβαίως δεν θα περάσει μακριά έως ότου έχουν συμβεί όλα αυτά τα πράγματα <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> <i> Bolded word is the word in quetion, for those that can not read greek. </i>
Here is how it appears if you were to put generation into the sentence instead. <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> 34I σας λένε την αλήθεια, αυτή η <b> γενεά </b> βεβαίως δεν θα περάσει μακριά έως ότου έχουν συμβεί όλα αυτά τα πράγματα <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> <i> Again the bold is the world generation as it should appear if it was that word in the bible. </i> I have actually done the same before in previous posts.
What is nice about the greek language since it was the basis of the latin language, it is read left to right not right to left and is "subject, verb, predicate" The same way english, spanish, french, russian, italian, and portugese run their sentences.
Examples are listed below to prove the above statement. Using same verse as above. (Not using race using generation for easy of spotting for people) <!--QuoteBegin-French+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (French)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> 34Truly I à vous, cette génération ne passera pas loin jusqu'à ce que toutes ces choses aient lieu <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> <!--QuoteBegin-spanish+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (spanish)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> 34Truly I a usted, esta generación no pasará lejos hasta que ocurren todas estas cosas <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> <!--QuoteBegin-Russian+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Russian)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> 34Truly iego к вам, это <b> поколение </b> не пройдет прочь до тех пор пока все эти вещи не осуществить <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> <i> Bolded the world generation for ease of identification </i>
<!--QuoteBegin-Portugese+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Portugese)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> 34Truly I a você, esta geração não passará afastado até que todas estas coisas ocorram <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> <!--QuoteBegin-Italian+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Italian)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> 34Truly I a voi, questa generazione non passerà via fino a che tutte queste cose non avvengano <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
As for creditials, some of us who are naturally bilingual, or trilingual or which ever you prefer have an affinity for languages can pick up some faster then others. Especially when many people who translate for a living make mistakes by not thinking on their own and by going by out-dated books. Which your NSAB, KJV, AB, NLT, ESV, NIRV, and NIV translations rely on.
Before you even mention Strong's Lexicon, which you will, for the greek translation they are using strongs number of 1074 which literally means "generation" not "race/nationality".
<a href='http://www.blueletterbible.org/tmp_dir/words/1/1114363955-9547.html' target='_blank'>Strongs Lexicon for Greek with numbers next to the words near bottom of page</a> *edited errors with quotes and tags... doh*
End times prophecies are notoriously tricky to work with, so I'll leave that to those with more linguistic training than I have. But I did run across lots of other points I wanted to comment on while reading through this lengthy thread. Unfortunately the thread has moved beyond most of those topics, but I think the "out of context" debate is recent enough to still be relevant, and it didn't have a real ending.
Cyndane, you never seem to have grasped what Cagey and Legionnaired meant by "out of context", so let me illustrate with an oversimplified example.
"I like vanilla ice cream. It's my favorite."
Now say that someone decides to quote me a little later on, writing,
Now that quote is completely accurate. It's even a complete sentence, and a complete thought. However, if you didn't read the original post, you aren't going to have any clue <i>what</i> that complete thought is. It is out of context unless you include the accompanying sentence "I like vanilla ice cream" so we can tell what I am talking about in the next sentence.
Now extend this to your BG quotes. For example (just taking the easiest example) you originally posted this passage:
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->BG 2:11ff The Blessed Lord said: While speaking learned words, you are mourning for what is not worthy of grief. Those who are wise lament neither for the living nor the dead.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
To which Legion added this passage: <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Chapter 2, Verse 12. Never was there a time when I did not exist, nor you, nor all these kings; nor in the future shall any of us cease to be.
Chapter 2, Verse 13. As the embodied soul continuously passes, in this body, from boyhood to youth to old age, the soul similarly passes into another body at death. A self-realized soul is not bewildered by such a change.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Those extra verses are important because they explain <i>why</i> the wise "lament neither for the living nor the dead". In the Bible passage you quoted to compare it with, even though Jesus also asked someone not to lament, his "why" was very different. In fact, there are other passages from the bible that indicate that it sometimes can be ok to weep for the dead. (Jesus weeping at Lazarus death).
<!--QuoteBegin-Cyndane+Apr 24 2005, 12:30 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Cyndane @ Apr 24 2005, 12:30 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Here is the text as it appears in the greek bible. Oh yes, taken from www.greekbible.com. I should mention that.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> 34I σας λένε την αλήθεια, αυτή η <b> φυλή </b> βεβαίως δεν θα περάσει μακριά έως ότου έχουν συμβεί όλα αυτά τα πράγματα <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> <i> Bolded word is the word in quetion, for those that can not read greek. </i>
Here is how it appears if you were to put generation into the sentence instead. <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> 34I σας λένε την αλήθεια, αυτή η <b> γενεά </b> βεβαίως δεν θα περάσει μακριά έως ότου έχουν συμβεί όλα αυτά τα πράγματα <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Funny, I checked greekbible.com myself and found this:
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <span style='font-family:symbol'>amhn legw umin oti ou mh parelqh h <b>genea</b> auth ewV an panta tauta genhtai.</span> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You say the word is φυλή. It's simply not, it's genea! I don't know where you pulled that other translation from, but if you're going to have to make up thing to prove your point, you should probably bow out.
That aside, the word I mentioned does have connotations of race, especially in it's root word <a href='http://www.blueletterbible.org/tmp_dir/words/1/1114397859-3393.html' target='_blank'>G1085</a>
I don't know what just happened there, but I'll give you the benifit of the doubt and assume you picked the wrong chapter or something.
Besides, what's this contradiction you keep harping on about?
I think the general problem he's getting at is that the passage seems to indicate that all of these end-times signs will occur soon, "this generation shall not pass till all these things be fulfilled". Now as everyone alive at the time is dead, and we still haven't seen the end-times signs, that suggests we must be misinterpreting it somehow (or else its just an inaccurate prediction, which I'm sure was what Cyndane wanted to get at).
You could look at "generation" and try to extend that into race or linneage, but whatabout this theory? I looked up the strongs entry on that verb, "pass", and found this--
2) to come near, come forward, arrive
Not the primary definition, as the verb is usually used with definition 1. But if you use definition 2, that changes the whole meaning of the sentence, doesn't it? Now the timelimit on the prediction isn't necessarily linked to their deaths anymore. It could be referring to their arrival at the final judgement instead.
There is a little menu at the top of the page, that says font, then underneath it, there is one that says "images". That was the one I was referring to.
The only point I am making, other then the horrible translations by various groups who are supposed experts. Is the fact they are creating contradictions that might not be there if they could think for themselves for even a quarter of a second.
That chapter is a good case in point, it says "end of this generation the end will come."
Then in the next passage states that "only the father knows when the end will come."
Well, to be precise its sometime "before" the end of this generation. That means its still indeterminate, and the father can still be the only one who knows.
Well, again Cyndane, just because you know what HAS TO TAKE PLACE for the end to come, you still don't know WHEN THE END WILL COME.
I don't see a contradiction there.
By the way, Jesus said, of that DAY and HOUR knoweth no man, nor the angels in heaven nor himself but the Father only. He didn't say that he didn't have SOME knowledge of the end times, because he clearly did.
Jesus was a dirty liar <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin-Cyndane+Apr 25 2005, 08:06 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Cyndane @ Apr 25 2005, 08:06 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> There is a little menu at the top of the page, that says font, then underneath it, there is one that says "images". That was the one I was referring to.
The only point I am making, other then the horrible translations by various groups who are supposed experts. Is the fact they are creating contradictions that might not be there if they could think for themselves for even a quarter of a second.
That chapter is a good case in point, it says "end of this generation the end will come."
Then in the next passage states that "only the father knows when the end will come."
I'd say thats a direct contradiction. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> That'd be a nice and tidy contradiction, if it was based on a correct reading. Read it again, you'll see it says that "This generation will not pass away until these things have come." Or if you'd rather: these things will come soon, before this race is done with.
The time given is still indeterminate, is never even approximated, it just says soon.
Totally different from the Father knowing the exact day.
Uh..... no, it doesn't. How the hell are you reading into it that it does?
1) The end of it all will come before the end of this ethnic group.
2) Nobody, except for the Father in heaven, knows EXACTLY when the end will come. (The day, etc)
1 Says generally that A will come before B. 2 Says that God in heaven knows specifically when A will happen.
I don't even see this one on the lists of '1001 irrefutable bible contradictions' that end up being nothing more than out-of context crap. So, if you please, show me the logic behind your train of thought. Try as I might, I just can't find it.
Comments
The fact that there are multiple translations does not mean that there was more than one meaning intended when the original text was written.
When you read a document, you bring to it the sum of your experiences to interpret it subjectively, and the Bible is no different. The fact that some interpret certiain passages to mean things beyond the scope of the original point is a reflection of bad theology, not a bad passage.
A perfect example is Hemmingway's <u>The Old Man and the Sea.</u> Hemmingway wrote an introduction later, where he stated explicitly "There is no symbolism in The Old Man and the Sea. The old man is the old man, the boat is the boat, and the water is the water." (This is a second-hand point, but if it's incorrect then sub in Mark Twain's Huck Finn and reverse it.)
Yet, if my english teacher wants to say that he was just being sarcastic or cynical, and take everything as symbolism, that shows her ineptitude, not Hemmingway's.
Not at all, so long as there is evidence to back up her interpretation.
Not at all, so long as there is evidence to back up her interpretation. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I hardly think meager scraps of evidence gathered here and there outweighs a direct statement from the author who was known for his straightforward approach.
Not at all, so long as there is evidence to back up her interpretation. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I hardly think meager scraps of evidence gathered here and there outweighs a direct statement from the author who was known for his straightforward approach. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
An author can unintentionally add subtexts to a work.
So, I shall keep it short and simple.
<a href='http://www.bhagavad-gita.org/' target='_blank'>Bhagavad-Gita</a> (In multiple languages as well, including orginal Hindi.
<a href='http://www.blueletterbible.org/' target='_blank'>The Bible</a> (In multiple languages and also includes searchable Greek/Hewbrew NT/OT.)
My statements still stand as they are. :-)
If you wish to critize my translations, feel free to do so, but make sure you can translate just as well as I before you do.
When you yourself openly admit that doctrinally the two relgions are radically different, this is absurd. Also especially when the surrounding text is totally and completely different.
This is why I didn't bother anymore in the other thread : You assume you're right because you claim yourself to be tolerant, then you assert that your conclusions are correct, despite the overwhelming contextual and logical evidence to the contrary.
In short, aside from AvengerX, you're the worst debator I've ever seen, and that's why I'm just not going to bother with this anymore. It's simply not worth my time, and anyone who'se been watching has either ceased to care, or has already taken sides.
the question is still if there is a god, but there is really no debating whether religions have similar elements. if they plagiarized each other or not is academic
Unfortunately as we can't solve the ultimate question we have to make do with this lesser one. Can you take the bible as <i>literal fact</i>. The answer is, as we see from this thread, no.
Unfortunately people still will and even those who acknowledge that it can't be taken literally will still continue firing quotes off at any who disagree, if only because its a great tactic for distracting people from the main point.
Why do they do it? Because in the end it's always a case of faith instead of evidence for any religious discussion which, by it's very nature, is unreasonable. However we Athiests continue to point out the flaws in the 'logic' which is being used to write the laws and choose the values we should live by and so rather than agree and say "yes, this doesn't make sense, it's god. Either you believe or you don't." they come up with lots of evidence.
I still hope they are right though.
<!--QuoteBegin-Biblegateway.com+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Biblegateway.com)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
Matthew 24 32-35
32“Now learn this lesson from the fig tree: As soon as its twigs get tender and its leaves come out, you know that summer is near.
33Even so, when you see all these things, you know that it is near, right at the door.
34I tell you the truth, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened.
35Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Then in your quote :
<!--QuoteBegin-biblegateway.com+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (biblegateway.com)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
Matthew 24 36-41
36“No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.
37As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man.
38For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark;
39and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man.
40Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left.
41Two women will be grinding with a hand mill; o
e will be taken and the other left.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
*edit* Broke my own quotes, and even forgot to mention where in the bible these are found. Yay for earling mornings.
~ DarkATi
Instead, I'd look at the greek words themselves; Generation in Mt 24:34 is 'genea,' a derivative of 'genos,' which refers to a nation, country, or collective group of people. He could easily be referring to Judah, all the Israelites, or the current age as a whole. Elsewhere he speaks of the end of the world as the 'end of the age,' so this isn't too much of a streach.
Instead, I'd look at the greek words themselves; Generation in Mt 24:34 is 'genea,' a derivative of 'genos,' which refers to a nation, country, or collective group of people. He could easily be referring to Judah, all the Israelites, or the current age as a whole. Elsewhere he speaks of the end of the world as the 'end of the age,' so this isn't too much of a streach. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Good point... good point.
~ DarkATi
Cyndane, you're missing his point, I don't think he implied that you had translated it. What he is saying is that the word "generation" is quite broad in meaning in this case. Greek isn't always easy to translate to English because Greek is a very extensive language with various ways of saying various things, some things can't even be correctly translated.
In Greek for instance, faith can be a verb. (Or perhaps this is in Hebrew, I don't remember, either way the example works.)
I faith God, doesn't sound right in English, we would translate it "I trust God" or "In God I Trust" (perhaps even "I put my faith in God") but in that translation we lose the spiritual side of the word faith as well as some intensity, while we gain a more comprehensible text.
It's a trade off.
~ DarkATi
I do also apologize for sounding so sarcastic in the previous post and I wasn't referring to you DarkAti, you have probably been the most understanding of just about anyone on this board about this issue, with the exception of Sky. */edit*
Not to pick on any one person here, but I have been told by various people that the "NIV" translation of the bible is the most accurate, (personally I disagree) and complete of any current bible translation (Using Legionaired's referenced "Strongs Lexicon" tests).
Yet when someone finds a very obvious contradiction that word suddenly means something completely different, or can be taken many different ways.
Personally, if I were to have translated that page, I would have said it referenced "race" more then generation, but obviously I don't know how to translate greek. ::rollseyes::
If we were to insert race instead of generation. It would read as follows.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
34I tell you the truth, this race will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
AKA, the gentile race as a whole. Legionaired find a commented bible where it references the what they "think" it is on the bottom. There are a few that do this. Specifically for the NIV translation, I want to see how close I am.
Though your point about race is well made, it only seeks to back up mine. Even still today, and most certainly back then, being of Israel and being Hebrew was somewhat interchangeable. Especially when Jesus (himself a Jew) is speaking to his Jewish followers, this translation just re-inforces the idea of a national, large-scale 'generation,' not a 30-year period between ancestors.
<a href='http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/index.php?search=matthew%2024&version1=49' target='_blank'>NSAB</a>
<!--QuoteBegin-biblegateway.com+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (biblegateway.com)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
32"Now learn the parable from the fig tree: when its branch has already become tender and puts forth its leaves, you know that summer is near;
33so, you too, when you see all these things, recognize that He is near, right (AR)at the door.
34"Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I call horrible translation on people who don't know the langauge and are using outdated books to translate.
Either way point stands, those who are supposed to be "authorities" (Read translators) on the bible contradict themselves in the same chapter.
And, by the way, I find it interesting that you assault those who translated the works without first having ANY contextual understanding of the New Testament as a whole. Please, what are your credentials translating first century Near-East writings?
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
34I σας λένε την αλήθεια, αυτή η <b> φυλή </b> βεβαίως δεν θα περάσει μακριά έως ότου έχουν συμβεί όλα αυτά τα πράγματα
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<i> Bolded word is the word in quetion, for those that can not read greek. </i>
Here is how it appears if you were to put generation into the sentence instead.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
34I σας λένε την αλήθεια, αυτή η <b> γενεά </b> βεβαίως δεν θα περάσει μακριά έως ότου έχουν συμβεί όλα αυτά τα πράγματα
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<i> Again the bold is the world generation as it should appear if it was that word in the bible. </i>
I have actually done the same before in previous posts.
What is nice about the greek language since it was the basis of the latin language, it is read left to right not right to left and is "subject, verb, predicate" The same way english, spanish, french, russian, italian, and portugese run their sentences.
Examples are listed below to prove the above statement. Using same verse as above. (Not using race using generation for easy of spotting for people)
<!--QuoteBegin-French+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (French)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
34Truly I à vous, cette génération ne passera pas loin jusqu'à ce que toutes ces choses aient lieu
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin-spanish+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (spanish)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
34Truly I a usted, esta generación no pasará lejos hasta que ocurren todas estas cosas
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin-Russian+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Russian)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
34Truly iego к вам, это <b> поколение </b> не пройдет прочь до тех пор пока все эти вещи не осуществить
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<i> Bolded the world generation for ease of identification </i>
<!--QuoteBegin-Portugese+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Portugese)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
34Truly I a você, esta geração não passará afastado até que todas estas coisas ocorram
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin-Italian+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Italian)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
34Truly I a voi, questa generazione non passerà via fino a che tutte queste cose non avvengano
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
As for creditials, some of us who are naturally bilingual, or trilingual or which ever you prefer have an affinity for languages can pick up some faster then others. Especially when many people who translate for a living make mistakes by not thinking on their own and by going by out-dated books. Which your NSAB, KJV, AB, NLT, ESV, NIRV, and NIV translations rely on.
Before you even mention Strong's Lexicon, which you will, for the greek translation they are using strongs number of 1074 which literally means "generation" not "race/nationality".
<a href='http://www.blueletterbible.org/tmp_dir/words/1/1114363955-9547.html' target='_blank'>Strongs Lexicon for Greek with numbers next to the words near bottom of page</a>
*edited errors with quotes and tags... doh*
Cyndane, you never seem to have grasped what Cagey and Legionnaired meant by "out of context", so let me illustrate with an oversimplified example.
"I like vanilla ice cream. It's my favorite."
Now say that someone decides to quote me a little later on, writing,
<!--QuoteBegin-Cxwf+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Cxwf)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->It's my favorite.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Now that quote is completely accurate. It's even a complete sentence, and a complete thought. However, if you didn't read the original post, you aren't going to have any clue <i>what</i> that complete thought is. It is out of context unless you include the accompanying sentence "I like vanilla ice cream" so we can tell what I am talking about in the next sentence.
Now extend this to your BG quotes. For example (just taking the easiest example) you originally posted this passage:
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->BG 2:11ff The Blessed Lord said: While speaking learned words, you are mourning for what is not worthy of grief. Those who are wise lament neither for the living nor the dead.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
To which Legion added this passage:
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Chapter 2, Verse 12.
Never was there a time when I did not exist, nor you, nor all these kings; nor in the future shall any of us cease to be.
Chapter 2, Verse 13.
As the embodied soul continuously passes, in this body, from boyhood to youth to old age, the soul similarly passes into another body at death. A self-realized soul is not bewildered by such a change.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Those extra verses are important because they explain <i>why</i> the wise "lament neither for the living nor the dead". In the Bible passage you quoted to compare it with, even though Jesus also asked someone not to lament, his "why" was very different. In fact, there are other passages from the bible that indicate that it sometimes can be ok to weep for the dead. (Jesus weeping at Lazarus death).
Does that explain it better?
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
34I σας λένε την αλήθεια, αυτή η <b> φυλή </b> βεβαίως δεν θα περάσει μακριά έως ότου έχουν συμβεί όλα αυτά τα πράγματα
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<i> Bolded word is the word in quetion, for those that can not read greek. </i>
Here is how it appears if you were to put generation into the sentence instead.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
34I σας λένε την αλήθεια, αυτή η <b> γενεά </b> βεβαίως δεν θα περάσει μακριά έως ότου έχουν συμβεί όλα αυτά τα πράγματα
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Funny, I checked greekbible.com myself and found this:
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
<span style='font-family:symbol'>amhn legw umin oti ou mh parelqh h <b>genea</b> auth ewV an panta tauta genhtai.</span>
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You say the word is φυλή. It's simply not, it's genea! I don't know where you pulled that other translation from, but if you're going to have to make up thing to prove your point, you should probably bow out.
That aside, the word I mentioned does have connotations of race, especially in it's root word <a href='http://www.blueletterbible.org/tmp_dir/words/1/1114397859-3393.html' target='_blank'>G1085</a>
I don't know what just happened there, but I'll give you the benifit of the doubt and assume you picked the wrong chapter or something.
Besides, what's this contradiction you keep harping on about?
You could look at "generation" and try to extend that into race or linneage, but whatabout this theory? I looked up the strongs entry on that verb, "pass", and found this--
2) to come near, come forward, arrive
Not the primary definition, as the verb is usually used with definition 1. But if you use definition 2, that changes the whole meaning of the sentence, doesn't it? Now the timelimit on the prediction isn't necessarily linked to their deaths anymore. It could be referring to their arrival at the final judgement instead.
The only point I am making, other then the horrible translations by various groups who are supposed experts. Is the fact they are creating contradictions that might not be there if they could think for themselves for even a quarter of a second.
That chapter is a good case in point, it says "end of this generation the end will come."
Then in the next passage states that "only the father knows when the end will come."
I'd say thats a direct contradiction.
I don't see a contradiction there.
By the way, Jesus said, of that DAY and HOUR knoweth no man, nor the angels in heaven nor himself but the Father only. He didn't say that he didn't have SOME knowledge of the end times, because he clearly did.
~ DarkATi
The only point I am making, other then the horrible translations by various groups who are supposed experts. Is the fact they are creating contradictions that might not be there if they could think for themselves for even a quarter of a second.
That chapter is a good case in point, it says "end of this generation the end will come."
Then in the next passage states that "only the father knows when the end will come."
I'd say thats a direct contradiction. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
That'd be a nice and tidy contradiction, if it was based on a correct reading. Read it again, you'll see it says that "This generation will not pass away until these things have come." Or if you'd rather: these things will come soon, before this race is done with.
The time given is still indeterminate, is never even approximated, it just says soon.
Totally different from the Father knowing the exact day.
Contradiction still stands.
1) The end of it all will come before the end of this ethnic group.
2) Nobody, except for the Father in heaven, knows EXACTLY when the end will come. (The day, etc)
1 Says generally that A will come before B. 2 Says that God in heaven knows specifically when A will happen.
I don't even see this one on the lists of '1001 irrefutable bible contradictions' that end up being nothing more than out-of context crap. So, if you please, show me the logic behind your train of thought. Try as I might, I just can't find it.