What Needs To Happen

Nadagast · November 2004

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Nadagast @ Nov 9 2004, 11:10 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> </div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Hieyeck)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Take me as an example: Just as a skulk, i know i'm fairly good if i get up close - i can wipe out 5 marines in a pack, but i also know that when coming down long corridors (i'm usually already in teh red if i get that close and only manage to kill about 2 marines), i'm not the best at evading. now wouldn't you fell gipped if i loaded a bhop script (or your 3jump) and closed the distance in half the time? its not a skill i earned by practicing, but it sure made me at least 200% more effective. i know i would be **** if that happened, and that is why me and many of the community feel that scripts aren't good for this PUB server.</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>
I assumed he was talking about a 3jump, and somehow missed my huge post explaining what 3jump does (aka it doesn't bhop for you). So I reply:
</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Nadagast)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>For example, Hieyeck still believing that if he was given a 3jump, he could suddenly bhop. He couldn't. You would need to learn how to bhop first.</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>
SO THEN HE REPLIES (THIS IS FUNNY GUYS):
</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Hieyeck)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>i'm not saying 3jumping is bhopping... read and achieve.
</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Hieyeck)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>now wouldn't you fell gipped if i loaded a bhop script (or your 3jump)</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>
Was I not justified in thinking you believed there was a real bhop script? Come on...

This is in response to:
</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Hieyeck)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>i know your 3jump as bhop :o i can't believe you're picking on it over a name...</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

and where you're wrong is when you say: "its not a skill i earned by practicing"
IT IS. Bhop is a skill you learn by practicing... it's as simple as that, same as anything else in the game. It's not: download a script and instantly go faster.

Nadagast · November 2004

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Hieyeck @ Nov 10 2004, 01:04 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> maybe if you spent this time practicing you 3jump/bhop you wouldn't need a script and we wouldn't be having this argument, neh?  </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> 
What? I have no idea what you're talking about... how do I practice a 3jump?

Nadagast · November 2004

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Hieyeck @ Nov 10 2004, 01:00 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> i know very well how bhop works and i can't time my jumps <_< 3jumping removes part of that. the whole point of my post is that if you can do it with you the script, then do it without the script. </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>
I can do it without the script if I use the mwheel...

I don't think you're understanding. Without some sort of jump aid it's basically impossible to time your jumps in a real environment (changing FPS and ping). This is what 3jump/mwheel does. It enables bhop.

Before you say "but he got an advantadge by going to a website!" He didn't get the advantadge by getting a 3jump, he got the advantadge by PRACTICING BHOP. It's exactly the same as me going to the NSLearn website and reading a Lerking article to be a better Lerk. I don't gain the skill from the webpage, I gain knowledge. Are you against NSLearn? NSGuides? Training websites? They are all essentially the same thing.

Anyway, I gotta go to sleep now. Continue this tomorrow.

G4B2SWrath · November 2004

It saddens me that you continue to flame our community Nadagast. You mention how you were banned on irc, this is true. You were making inflammatory comments, and starting a whole spiel about scripting that really no one had an interest in, so for us it seemed like you were just there to make trouble. Hieyeck was involved in the discussion and got sick of your round-a-bout argueing without listening to us. You do not mention that you were unbanned half a day later after a review of the situation.

Same for the server ban. We had half a dozen demos of suspected hacking, so you were banned pending review. I was one of the admins that reviewed the demos, and I supported you, and after some discussion you were unbanned. You have to expect that on public servers, the general public will inevitably accuse you of hacking when you're playing clearly better than they are, it's just sad that you react so viciously to 'teach' them their ignorance instead of just ignoring it and bringing it up at an appropriate time and place (the forums) , as I suggested numerous times before you took the hint.

The topics were locked (unfortunatly), because frankly we're perfectly satisfied with the direction our own little slice of community is going. We are all about having fun, and if that endangers your fantasy global community ideal,.. well dont look at us to apologize.

Thank you necrosis for your view on the matter, I enjoyed that post. <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' />

Forlorn · November 2004

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> ([G4B2S]Wrath @ Nov 10 2004, 01:40 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> The topics were locked (unfortunatly), because frankly we're perfectly satisfied with the direction our own little slice of community is going. We are all about having fun, and if that endangers your fantasy global community ideal,.. well dont look at us to apologize.  </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> 
Hey man if you do not care about the NS community as a whole that is your choice

Deus_Ex_Machina · November 2004

Nadagast, you are a great person. Even in the face of infinitessimal ignorance and prejudice you maintain a cooled tone and continue to try and explain your viewpoint while others refuse to listen. I commend <b>you</b>.

I don't script at all, but I don't really understand where all the script hate comes from. People don't ruin games because they can bunnyhop faster than you.. people ruin games when they blame scripts for their own lack of skill. I know, I used to do it. <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' />

Kobayashi · November 2004

dammity wrath, hieyeck. It was worked out...

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>QUOTE ([G4B2S]Wrath @ Nov 10 2004, 01:40 AM)
The topics were locked (unfortunatly), because frankly we're perfectly satisfied with the direction our own little slice of community is going. We are all about having fun, and if that endangers your fantasy global community ideal,.. well dont look at us to apologize.

Hey man if you do not care about the NS community as a whole that is your choice</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>
</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Actually no you are being ignorant because you claim you need the 3jumps script (which is only one script) when you have several options avalible to you, including but not limited to

- mousewheel
- macros </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

Care how? we are just trying to provide a fun PUB server, if you don't like how we are trying to provide a place for teh casual gamer to have fun. How is that not caring about teh community as a whole? I dont' think we're different from any other pub... or even pug/clan servers... they all aim to please a certain audience... I dont' see how trying to trying to make our little bit of the community happy translates to not caring about teh whole.

As well, UNDERSTAND thier post before replying. Hieyeck's post never claimed that you NEEDED the 3 jump script. He just said it helped alot with the timing. Yes we know there are other ways.

Hieyeck: Don't need to flame/defend now. Most of this is just a huge misunderstanding.

Wrath: Thanks for explaining it out a bit more from the admin standpoint. I don't think Nadagast means to flame our community.

Nadagast: Hieyeck is excitiable, but he means well. Maybe we could work something out like an apology on the forums with both sides saying they misunderstood each other?

SpaceMoogle5 · November 2004

yay script drama v2.0 now with less clanners.

here is what I can say from being a mid level clanner[whos clan name was mentioned in forlons above post <3... well at least the article] .

people who have the most problems with scripts couldn't identify a script if it poked them in their no no spot. They assume that because they shoot fast with el Pistole that it must be a pistol script, although it could be a mouse wheel bind or a gifted key masher{[FFT]Anticamp}, but if they have a clan tag... <span style='color:black'>**POOF**</span> DIRTY<span style='font-size:14pt;line-height:100%'><span style='color:RED'> [RADIO EDIT]</span></span>ing SCRIPTER. I know, I have played with this before, its not anything new. But I used to be one of the people that screamed SCR.IPTS, but it may not have been scritps, it may have but it matters not.

This is important
<span style='font-size:14pt;line-height:100%'><span style='color:red'> you can not bunny hop without practice, it is a learned skill that even WITH a script is not easy, the script only makes the precision jump POSSIBLE. the player MUST STILL KNOW HOW TO BUNNY HOP.</span></span>

I used to be the king of scriptusations, I believed that people were doing insane things with scripts. Some were using exploitive config tweeks, some were flat out hacking, most of it was all in my head. BUT in order to understand scripts you must use them yourself, otherwise you will not posses the knowledge of what scripts can and can't do.

Sadly in NS there is one big open section of players. I know that in chess, there are open sections for the under 1600[or some 1800] strength players[pubbers]. and there is a reserve section for the stronger players[Clanners, regulars, people with NO life]. Sadly for the community there is no line. Grandmasters[Nadagast, Forlorn and co.] can walk into the mix with the average players[everyone else] OF COURSE THEY ARE GOING TO DOMINATE... what do you expect to happen? If you put me in a ring with mike tyson, even though I am a big dude, he would tear me a new poo shoot. the reason for this? Mike Tyson DEDICATES A LOT OF TIME AND EFFORT INTO BOXING. The same is true for the top clanners, they work their e-butts off to be the best, scripts or no scripts they put in the work, they deserve the rewards. Saldy for you and I this means that they have to play somewhere, and since there is again NO distinction between player's strengths, they just like you and I go to the server that has...

1.People playing on it

2.a non ghetto ping

And sadly you and I [under 1600 or 1800] have to deal with these dudes, however persicuting them will not help...[unless they are being abrasive]

It's funny too because you see it every day in real life, someone who is an amazing basketball player on the same court as you, the really hot girl, or just someone who you look up to due to thier overall coolness[Zunni] but its always around us, some people are just really good, no matter how they did it they just are.

<span style='font-size:14pt;line-height:100%'>IN CLOSING

I beleve we need a way of tracking how good people are, and having servers that let the big kids play with the big kids. Weather it be a series of CAL approved servers, or a way of tracking how good players are, and having a rating floor/celing for every server. Some way to help guide the NS community as to what kind of competition will exsist on the server that you are about to join. I am not saying that people should be excluded from playing wherever they want, but I know that when I play a game I watch to see how good the people I am playing against are... Be it Basketball, Chess or bowling, just a bit of knowledge weather I am playing aginst people who are having fun with a game, or are in it to win it.</span>

That is my peice,

SM5

PS unblocked ports in 3 days BABEH, then its back to
<img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif' /> + <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='skulk.gif' /> fer me

amnesiac · November 2004

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Deus Ex Machina @ Nov 10 2004, 02:09 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Even in the face of infinitessimal ignorance and prejudice you maintain a cooled tone and continue to try and explain your viewpoint while others refuse to listen.  </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> 
malcom eX machina tbh <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' />

TheAdj · November 2004

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Hieyeck @ Nov 10 2004, 01:04 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> we know what scripts do and we dont want them now leave us alone. do you have nothing better to do than bother pub communities about this? maybe if you spent this time practicing you 3jump/bhop you wouldn't need a script and we wouldn't be having this argument, neh?  </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> 
What you're saying is this: You don't need 3jump in order to bhop.
The Reality is this: Without 3jump/mousewheel, it is impossible to keep a constant bhop. Nadagast is one of the best bhoppers in the competitive community, and he can't keep bhop maxed out with just +jump. If he's one of the best and can't do it, do you think anyone else can? It's the way the HL engine deals with jumping, it makes it difficult to impossible to do it without some type of jump-timing aid.

There is no "go practice and get better so you don't need a script", what you're saying is absolutely condescending considering who it is aimed at. Your statement is pretty much equivalent to "go practice and get skill", yet you talk to someone who's the best in the game at something. Amazing. He is giving people a chance to expand their horizons and learn something they may not know about, and gets treated with little respect, hostility, and a condescending attitude.

You really wonder why some competitive players are ****? Maybe this has something to do with it. If more competitive players were treated better by the average Joe Pubber, maybe many competitive players would have much better attitudes and be much more helpful. I go out of my way to help people daily because as a Guide and a NSLearn Instructor it's my job to do so. Before I was either of those I did it because I thought people deserved such treatment. I still get treated like trash by many players, but I'm required to brush off most of the stuff that happens and drive on. I just couldn't let this one go without saying my peace.

SpaceMoogle5 · November 2004

/me downloads a "tons of practice" script, and a "hundreds of hours logged playing NS" script.

OK bring it on, im magicly better.

amnesiac · November 2004

photek <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/lerk.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='lerk.gif' /> > <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/lerk.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='lerk.gif' /> adj`

Gerald_R_Ford · November 2004

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> ([FFT]SpaceMoogle5 @ Nov 10 2004, 04:19 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> /me downloads a "tons of practice" script, and a "hundreds of hours logged playing NS" script.

OK bring it on, im magicly better.  </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> 
i've got the "has played NS way to much, pubs are a joke" script, works very well.

Hieyeck · November 2004

*sigh* i STILL dont believe you're missing the whole point... try ceasing your efforts at making me look like a retard and show some maturity like spacemoogle, theadj', and ness-earthbound - just to name a few. besides we all already know i'm a retard: </div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>[05:34:02] <IRPG> You are Hieyeck, the level 46 superduperubergay retarded assclown.</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>IRPG said so. <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' />

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Was I not justified in thinking you believed there was a real bhop script? Come on...</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>
what does this have to do with the arguement at hand? are you trying to imply that i'm somehow stupid? sorry, but i don't script and don't know all your l337 73rm1n0l0g33 4nd j4rg0n. this does not mean i have no experience with what scripts are capable of.

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>What you're saying is this: You don't need 3jump in order to bhop.
The Reality is this: Without 3jump/mousewheel, it is impossible to keep a constant bhop. Nadagast is one of the best bhoppers in the competitive community, and he can't keep bhop maxed out with just +jump. If he's one of the best and can't do it, do you think anyone else can? It's the way the HL engine deals with jumping, it makes it difficult to impossible to do it without some type of jump-timing aid. </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>
then has it occured that maybe it just shouldn't be used? if it can't be done by a human, then leave it. you say the script is "only computer assisted jumping." but then it leads to, "its only computer assisted aiming." "it's only computer assisted sight." We all know there's a difference between aimbotting/wallhacking and bunnyhopping, but if we let scripts to be used and people just argue the hacks are only computer assistance, then we have very little options left. consider us leaving mp_bs to 1 as covering our bases. i know that i can pull off a slight speed increase without scripts and i'm happy with that.

firstly, i never said you NEEDED it. but there is one thing that seems to contradict itself. spacemoogle is saying that even nadagast needs the script. forlorn is claiming otherwise. you're not the same person, so i'll assume that never happened. HOWEVER, if nadagast has the option of using a mousewheel and macros, and which nadagast also says he can use </div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>I can do it without the script if I use the mwheel...</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> then why the gripe about 'mp_bs 1'? maybe he also wants to use some other scripts to exploit other parts of the engine? I'm not accusing you of anything nadagast and from watching the numerous demos submitted, you seem to be doing fine without them, but this IS one logical path that can be taken.

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Before you say "but he got an advantadge by going to a website!" He didn't get the advantadge by getting a 3jump, he got the advantadge by PRACTICING BHOP. It's exactly the same as me going to the NSLearn website and reading a Lerking article to be a better Lerk. I don't gain the skill from the webpage, I gain knowledge. Are you against NSLearn? NSGuides? Training websites? They are all essentially the same thing.</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>
i said "download". USING a script is hardly the same as LEARNING from it. This can be likened to crib notes (aka cheat sheets). learning from them before the test and actually using them in a test are two completely different matters. just ask any teacher. with scripts i READ what they do and try to accomplish to the best of my abilty without using them in game. i.e. fade scripts. we all know they suck for any experienced player, but if i didn't know how fades did what they did and i was in a community that didn't want to share, i would READ the script to learn the what to do. now lucky me, i was in a community that shared, so i got a head start. i loaded up a listen server and practiced blinking at a wall to get distances down. then i practiced doing the same and swiping the wall. repeat and add blinking away while metabolizing. once i got the basics down, i joined a CO server and practiced on live target without fear of **** off my team by wasting 50 res. at no point would i have needed to actually use that script.

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Hey man if you do not care about the NS community as a whole that is your choice </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>
ns.org is hardly the entire NS community. its seems like 90% of people who use these forums are clan members or as spacemoogle so nicely put it:</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>[Clanners, regulars, people with NO life].</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>hardly a fair representation OF THE ENTIRE community. could it be possible that we're catering to those who dont give a flying fart about all of this and just want to shoot up some kharra? maybe these people don't want to be [godly, echoing voice]overwhelmed by your superiority that is further enhanced by you using scritps[/godly, echoing voice]

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>You really wonder why some competitive players are ****? Maybe this has something to do with it. If more competitive players were treated better by the average Joe Pubber, maybe many competitive players would have much better attitudes and be much more helpful. I go out of my way to help people daily because as a Guide and a NSLearn Instructor it's my job to do so. Before I was either of those I did it because I thought people deserved such treatment. I still get treated like trash by many players, but I'm required to brush off most of the stuff that happens and drive on. I just couldn't let this one go without saying my peace.</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>last i checked at g4b2s, many of the regulars there don't care. you never hear about the pubbers that just don't care about clanners being so much better because they KNOW the clanners are just that much better and leave them alone. allow me to point to <a href='http://guns4back2school.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=6988&st=0' target='_blank'>http://guns4back2school.com/forums/index.p...topic=6988&st=0</a>, where our fearless nadagast who so bravely dove into the pit of all pubs was accused of hacking. please examing the join dates on the people who whined. <b>Joined: 20-October 04</b> and<b> 8-November 04</b>.
there has even been debates where many of the people, including myself, vouch for nadagast's validity, because i know that people can get good without hacking. and the demos show nothing other than exceptional skill. We all know that the only thing faster than the speed of light is bad news, and one person who plays ONLY ONCE at a community can completely ruin its reputation. i've seen this happen too many times and i try my best to not make generalizations. everytime a new player comes in, wearing the same tag as someone else who was a complete cockmonger means nothing to me. each association, be they clan or community is bound to have its regular jackass and making such generalizations is hardly fair. right here for example. this argument seems to mostly be with g4b2s and immediately, all of you are associating us with every pub in existence.

Scylla · November 2004

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Forlorn @ Nov 9 2004, 12:45 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
Wow! Since when is going fade bad?

One of the #1 thing that irks me about your pub is that they think they know how to play the game, and 9 times out of 10 they are wrong.

You can even politely explain to them with text:

"Actually we need fades to combat the marine's effective, esp. if they use static defenses"

"Forlorn, go fade and get banned"</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

I don’t say that. I think it’s a pretty bad behaviour to just join a game to go fade without considering team needs. A part of clanners playing on my server just save for fade and never build anything whatever the situation is.

I prefer to have a good player - clanned or not I don’t care - going fade. If he asks and I have enough res to build the hive in an acceptable time he always getting thumbs up from me.

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Forlorn @ Nov 9 2004, 12:45 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Dude, you play to win. That is the only point to the game and that's what makes it fun. </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

That’s your opinion. Others may play to play or play to learn.

TheAdj · November 2004

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Hieyeck @ Nov 10 2004, 05:38 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> </div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>What you're saying is this: You don't need 3jump in order to bhop.
The Reality is this: Without 3jump/mousewheel, it is impossible to keep a constant bhop. Nadagast is one of the best bhoppers in the competitive community, and he can't keep bhop maxed out with just +jump. If he's one of the best and can't do it, do you think anyone else can? It's the way the HL engine deals with jumping, it makes it difficult to impossible to do it without some type of jump-timing aid. </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>
then has it occured that maybe it just shouldn't be used? if it can't be done by a human, then leave it. you say the script is "only computer assisted jumping." but then it leads to, "its only computer assisted aiming." "it's only computer assisted sight." We all know there's a difference between aimbotting/wallhacking and bunnyhopping, but if we let scripts to be used and people just argue the hacks are only computer assistance, then we have very little options left. consider us leaving mp_bs to 1 as covering our bases. i know that i can pull off a slight speed increase without scripts and i'm happy with that.  </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> 
What I'm saying is that it's possible to bhop without a 3jump, BUT it still requires an alternate, non-regular button setup to do so (The mousewheel or some type of turbo button - discount macros, that's beyond our scope). Aliens are indeed balanced around bhopping, thus it should be possible for any alien that learns how to bhop to be allowed to do so. It requires some type of jump-spamming ability because that's a technicality of the game engine that other Quake-based games do not have, it's particular to HL itself. If you accept bhop is part of the game and is balanced into it for the alien team, then you also accept that you must allow people to do it and have the means to do it. bs 1 prevents one way of bhopping. There are other ways but for people that use 3jump (or must, some people don't have a mousewheel), you are preventing them using something that is a convenience to them. I guess I should run a server and rebind people's keys as they join to match my config because I know it's the safe way to make sure everyone plays with the same setup. Sounds good in theory, right? <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/mad-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='mad-fix.gif' />

Also, never compare scripts to aimbotting even remotely. I will break out the logical fallacies links if it's used again, because it's preposterous to compare the two in any way.

radforChrist · November 2004

Well, it seems that the original intent of this thread has vanished, so let me side track it a little. What I am about to say is a geniune question, not a bash in anyone's general direction.

I play the game as originally inteded. No scripts, no bhopping. I feel if scripts were fully supported by the game, then the dev's should have included them in the game already written, and ready to be bound (just my opinion, get over it). As well as bhopping. No matter how you slice it, this is an exploit of the engine, that the dev team has chosen not to change (i think b/c of the potential backlash of the competitive community).

I love NS. I'm not the best aim, I don't bhop, and I don't use scripts, thus my chances of going into the competitive arena a slim to none. But I feel that a good NS Player should be able to get on any vanilla computer with an NS config, adjust existing button configurations, and play. I know some clanners that can do that, even though they use bhop or scripts, and I commend them. But what about me? I have certian principles about the game design that I won't cross. I know how to bhop, I've even played around with it and do it decently. But I'm not going to give myself the advantage that any NSPlayer doesn't have. Why? B/c i want the other guy to have fun as much as I do. It bothers me that most/all of PT's can bhop, and that the game is balanced for it. It sincerely disturbs me. This competitive mentality of balancing has almost gotten me to the point of wanting to leave NS, b/c each release is going to be more and more customized to competitive play, requiring more and more people to learn "allowable exploits" such as bhop in order to keep up, leaving new NSPlayers still much farther behind, with yet another learning curve.

IN a nutshell, what do you expect for people in my situation to do? I can't go competitive, b/c if I don't learn to abuse knock back with strafe jumping, or learn how to jump in such a way that I go the same speed backward as I do forward, of bunnyhop, there is NO good clan community that will even talk to me. Doesn't matter how well I comm, or how team oriented I am. And the devs sits quietly, playtesting a game I feel I no longer have any input on, b/c the competitive minded PT's don't really care about ppl who don't play the way they do. So, Zunni, Flayra, what about us. Forlorn, Nadagast, before you tell me how stupid my "philosophies" are and that I need to change or just leave the community, I've been here since way before the beginning, and TBH, that is the community we always said we never wanted in NS.

MrBen · November 2004

A lot of these posts only serve to backup Nadagasts orignial point about growing levels of ignorance within the public scene and private communities. This thread was started with the intention on making the community better, so that experienced, competitive players might help public players get better, so that we might help educate you in subjects that you claim to understand yet truely don't. So that we could finally cross the divide and be one happy family.

Of course our good intentions are once again thrown back in our face, don't you just love that? It's the way it has always been, every time i try and help, everytime i try and explain not to put a turret factory in double or that locking down X hive is usless i get insulted. I think nearly every clanner starts out with good intentions but our patience is slowly worn down by constant insulting and ignorant attitudes. You know i got ejected the other day because i didnt' put a PG in an unbuilt hive room when a hive was going up elsewhere and i wanted them to get out of there.

Why do you assume that all clanners are lying? We've been both side of the fence and we didn't choose to stay as a clanner because we thought we could pull the wool over your eyes. Nearly EVERY player who joins a clan and gets involves with the spirit of things sees what we're saying. The people who disagree are mainly the people who choose to live in an Isolated server and who have no experience of where we're coming from. Maybe if you opened your eyes and started reading what we're saying then things would get better.

We can only hope, aye.

TOmekki · November 2004

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>I know how to bhop, I've even played around with it and do it decently. But I'm not going to give myself the advantage that any NSPlayer doesn't have. Why? B/c i want the other guy to have fun as much as I do.</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

dude. thats like id say that i deliberately aim like crap because i want that the skulks have a good time also (though they already do). it does not work like that. people improve in this game, and there is no way to balance that. if somoene is annoyed that they keep getting killed by a good aim or bunny hop skulks, you need to learn to play good enough to NOT get killed.

it (bunnyhop) is not an exploit if it has been consciously left in the game for aliens. period. i do not understand why it is so hard to get. what NEEDS to be done, however, is make the manual come with a bunnyhop tutorial, and make default binds for 3jumps or something.

i agree though that ns has a (too) high learning curve. but if the game is not balanced around skill (bunnyhop) then what? super-fast skulks, celerity right off the bat? stupidly weak marine weapons? remember that bunnyhop is 90% travel. you have to be very good at it to be able to use it in combat situations.

and do not think so low of yourself, you dont necessarily have to know every in and out of the game before going competetive, because that's where you learn the ins and outs =|

Zek · November 2004

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Mr.Ben @ Nov 10 2004, 09:33 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> A lot of these posts only serve to backup Nadagasts orignial point about growing levels of ignorance within the public scene and private communities. This thread was started with the intention on making the community better, so that experienced, competitive players might help public players get better, so that we might help educate you in subjects that you claim to understand yet truely don't. So that we could finally cross the divide and be one happy family.

Of course our good intentions are once again thrown back in our face, don't you just love that? It's the way it has always been, every time i try and help, everytime i try and explain not to put a turret factory in double or that locking down X hive is usless i get insulted. I think nearly every clanner starts out with good intentions but our patience is slowly worn down by constant insulting and ignorant attitudes. You know i got ejected the other day because i didnt' put a PG in an unbuilt hive room when a hive was going up elsewhere and i wanted them to get out of there.

Why do you assume that all clanners are lying? We've been both side of the fence and we didn't choose to stay as a clanner because we thought we could pull the wool over your eyes. Nearly EVERY player who joins a clan and gets involves with the spirit of things sees what we're saying. The people who disagree are mainly the people who choose to live in an Isolated server and who have no experience of where we're coming from. Maybe if you opened your eyes and started reading what we're saying then things would get better.

We can only hope, aye.  </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> 
Ben, some people just don't want help and feel insulted when they receive it. That's not at all unique to NS, or online games in general. Surely you can understand that. When a clanner goes onto a pub server and tries to explain to people that what they're doing is wrong, they are probably going to be insulted. Whether or not you're right, people just want to figure these things out for themselves.

It's really important that clanners understand that their playstyle is not the ultimate objective for every pub player. Most of them aren't in a clan or trying to get into one for a very good reason; they just don't care about becoming excellent players. They play the game to have fun. I've been playing this game for two years, I know all the ins and outs, but I consciously made the decision not to bother becoming involved in clan play because I don't want to take the game more seriously than what it is: a game. Even I find it irritating when a clanner comes onto the server and tries to insinuate that the way I play the game isn't good enough because I'm not aiming for the highest level. That's the difference between pubbers and clanners. Obviously some pubbers care less about this game than others, but for almost all of them, there's no point in trying to convert them to your way of thinking. If they want to scrim, they'll join a clan.

radforChrist · November 2004

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>dude. thats like id say that i deliberately aim like crap because i want that the skulks have a good time also (though they already do). it does not work like that. people improve in this game, and there is no way to balance that. if somoene is annoyed that they keep getting killed by a good aim or bunny hop skulks, you need to learn to play good enough to NOT get killed.
it (bunnyhop) is not an exploit if it has been consciously left in the game for aliens. period. i do not understand why it is so hard to get. what NEEDS to be done, however, is make the manual come with a bunnyhop tutorial, and make default binds for 3jumps or something.
i agree though that ns has a (too) high learning curve. but if the game is not balanced around skill (bunnyhop) then what? super-fast skulks, celerity right off the bat? stupidly weak marine weapons? remember that bunnyhop is 90% travel. you have to be very good at it to be able to use it in combat situations.
and do not think so low of yourself, you dont necessarily have to know every in and out of the game before going competetive, because that's where you learn the ins and outs =|</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

You're not understanding what I'm saying. If I try to pursue competitive play, it will be a prerequisite for me to learn these things, and I don't want to. I try to play the game as close to its original intents. I feel strongly about this, it's a bit absurd to ppl who don't see it the way I do, but try. I'm not trying to make everyone think the way I do, but understand where I'm coming from, and address this issue with me to help me understand how this game is getting too balanced based on a higher skill level than most NS players will ever have. The origin of this post, as I saw it, was to help the general pub community understand the usefulness of scripts, bhop, whatever that is used in competitive play, and the clanner's openness to teach the pub community. Where they got it wrong is that I feel there are people out there like myself who want to play without bhop and strafe jumping, or certain scripts.

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Zek)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> It's really important that clanners understand that their playstyle is not the ultimate objective for every pub player. Most of them aren't in a clan or trying to get into one for a very good reason; they just don't care about becoming excellent players. They play the game to have fun. I've been playing this game for two years, I know all the ins and outs, but I consciously made the decision not to bother becoming involved in clan play because I don't want to take the game more seriously than what it is: a game. Even I find it irritating when a clanner comes onto the server and tries to insinuate that the way I play the game isn't good enough because I'm not aiming for the highest level. That's the difference between pubbers and clanners. Obviously some pubbers care less about this game than others, but for almost all of them, there's no point in trying to convert them to your way of thinking. If they want to scrim, they'll join a clan. </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

This more or less explains my feeling towards the strategy of clan play. Imagine what would happen if bhopping was removed. Or the strafe jumping. Let's not argue over the validity of these strats, let's just look at them and imagine for some reason the dev team decided to remove it. Then, skilled players would still have the advantage, b/c no amount of bhop or strafe jump affects aim and intelligent attacks. The skill that Forlorn, Mr.Ben, and others have is attributed to that. But then, that new NSplayer, or that person who only gets to play NS a few times a week, or a month, and hasn't been able to put hours into practicing the "requisite" skills needed now has a better chance. He doesn't have to worry about hive 1 carapaced skulks zooming at him at amazing speeds. Nor does he have to worry about flanking a marine only to have the marine jump, turn around moving as fast or faster than he, and shooting him before he should have been able to reach him. I always look for higher pub play, that's why I love FR31NS server, great play, great skill, lately empty <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/sad-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad-fix.gif' />, but if these two things were removed from NS, the competitive scene would have to compensate, and things may need to be tweaked a bit, but I think the overall gameplay would be more exciting. No longer do you have the one skulk of doom that travels the map at insane speed, unless they celerity, which forces them to choose Mc over DC. I'm not saying I'm a proponent of ridding NS of Bhopping, I just wish the PT's and clans would see there are those of us who choose not to use these "strats", and we're not ignorant or newbs b/c we choose so.

crisano · November 2004

I'll start keeping my responses short since it seems like making long essays of explanations doesn't seem to be helping the matter, more or less it might be hurting this topic I don't know. Plus it might make it seem like I'm arrogant or condenscending which is the last thing I or I'm sure most of the others want to do.

A few people brought up the point that NS has a much tougher learning curve than most games, I agree with it. Wouldn't it be logical then that the higher the learning curve the game is, the better it is if the more experienced and knowledgeable players help out the newer players, whether they be clanners or just veteran NSers?

This is what the thread of the original post is about, not about scripts and turning off mp_blockscripts, not about firing abusive admins, etc. It's about communication when you just look at the topic. Communication between the two groups needs to improve drastically or the steep NS learning curve will continue to dominate. And yes, I agree that it means <b>both</b> sides have to work on it. I know sometimes when I get fustrated, I could become an **** sometimes or be seen as an elitist, for that I apologize, but I cannot change the attitudes of others nor can anyone else. The change has to come from people understanding this themselves, and hopefully their view on this subject will be taken in the best interest of the game.

Damn this post was meant to be three times shorter.

tjosan · November 2004

This is the thing though, it's all convenience.

I could bhop using the mwheel (and I do alot due to Gaming Orb using mp_bs 1), but my mwheel is not good enough for me to hop at constant max speed.

What a 3jump script does for me is saving me $50 for a new mouse with a better mousewheel. Is this unfair? It is my belief that preventing me from bunnyhopping because I have a bad economy is MUCH more unfair.

So when you justify mp_blockscripts 1 the way you do, you not only spread misinformation (and I believe it is every man or womans duty not to spread lies and prejudice) but you effectively limit my play because I dont have the money to buy a new mouse.

The above is why I believe mp_blockscripts should be off, and since logically invalid arguements such as ad hominem are so popular on this forum, I'll end my post with a quote.

[17:46] <^Zunni^> which is what I'm working on correcting.. (People comparring 3 jump to aimbotting)

And

[17:47] <tjosan> since there is an option, some people see that as a statement from the devs; "scripts are evil"
[17:47] <^Zunni^> tjosan: precisely what I'm working to correct

[Edit]Sorry for not adressing the point of the topic at hand. I totally agree with Nadagast, but I have a tendency to have to say something even though it is irrelevant.

TOmekki · November 2004

limiting the amount of possible movement techniques and "tricks" essentially makes the game more boring.

if someone is doing some amazing stuff as a basic marine/skulk, ask them how you could do it also, instead of thinking "man that's lame, it should be removed!"

also, no amount of pt's and devs can balance the game for players that do not play it as it's supposed to be played. or, if you want to hear it more nicely, "the way the game was made to be".

Torgo · November 2004

Guys, guys...this solution is simple...stop playing NS.
Go outside and take a walk or something. It's refeshing.

surprise · November 2004

okay, i read this thread until page 15, stopped, the other day the thread was at page 21... wow...

i dont think my point has already been made so ill just post ahead.

now, i think the points i have to make are pretty important for both "community"-side and "clan"-side

<u>lets look at the facts</u>:
->there IS a rift between "clanners" and "communities" (fact)
[be it because of misinformation, ignorance, general noobieness, arrogance or whatever]
->this rift is a problem that should be solved, because it causes hot blood on BOTH sides (fact)
[if you say the other side just misunderstood you, doesnt matter: its important what message reaches the communicationpartner, not how it was meant. then the fault was on your side]
->now every side should do what it can do best to solve said problem whcih would help BOTH sides

<u>now lets see what both sides can do</u>:

->clanners have only <b>small</b> influence that might go to the whole clan, perhaps some people they know and thats it
they can try to educate those people not to behave arrogant or whatever is the problem in the eyes of the community

->now the community on the other side has a quite <b>big</b> influence, because far more players will have contact with them on their servers, their sites and their forums.
so while the clanner should do what he can best in his small "frame", the community should do its best with its own methods
be it topics about scripting(even if bs is 1) if clanners think they are mistaken for their scripting, or be it special vet-evenings, where pubbers can come and look at clanners a bit closer, or be it more hltv coverage

<u>conlcusion</u>:
you cant denie we have a problem, now let every side do its best to solve it, even if the bigger importance is in the communities

sry for the big post, but i needed to say that <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/nerd-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='nerd-fix.gif' />

btw sry for my english, did my best <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/confused-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused-fix.gif' />
btw 2, id really like to see a match with redford, nada, forlorn and all the others on one server just to see how they/you would behave <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wow.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wow.gif' />

tjosan · November 2004

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (surprise @ Nov 10 2004, 11:12 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> okay, i read this thread until page 15, stopped, the other day the thread was at page 21... wow...

i dont think my point has already been made so ill just post ahead.

now, i think the points i have to make are pretty important for both "community"-side and "clan"-side

<u>lets look at the facts</u>:
->there IS a rift between "clanners" and "communities" (fact)
[be it because of misinformation, ignorance, general noobieness, arrogance or whatever]
->this rift is a problem that should be solved, because it causes hot blood on BOTH sides (fact)
[if you say the other side just misunderstood you, doesnt matter: its important what message reaches the communicationpartner, not how it was meant. then the fault was on your side]
->now every side should do what it can do best to solve said problem whcih would help BOTH sides

<u>now lets see what both sides can do</u>:

->clanners have only <b>small</b> influence that might go to the whole clan, perhaps some people they know and thats it
they can try to educate those people not to behave arrogant or whatever is the problem in the eyes of the community

->now the community on the other side has a quite <b>big</b> influence, because far more players will have contact with them on their servers, their sites and their forums.
so while the clanner should do what he can best in his small "frame", the community should do its best with its own methods
be it topics about scripting(even if bs is 1) if clanners think they are mistaken for their scripting, or be it special vet-evenings, where pubbers can come and look at clanners a bit closer, or be it more hltv coverage

<u>conlcusion</u>:
you cant denie we have a problem, now let every side do its best to solve it, even if the bigger importance is in the communities

sry for the big post, but i needed to say that <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/nerd-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='nerd-fix.gif' />

btw sry for my english, did my best <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/confused-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused-fix.gif' />
btw 2, id really like to see a match with redford, nada, forlorn and all the others on one server just to see how they/you would behave <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wow.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wow.gif' />  </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> 
Hear hear.

SaltzBad · November 2004

@rad4christ :
I seriously doubt you'd get anyone to play a game where all you can do is walk and point competitively. That would be like Zombie Panic - fun EXCLUSIVELY if you plan on investing less than 20 minutes a week.

SaltzBad · November 2004

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Hieyeck @ Nov 10 2004, 05:38 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
then has it occured that maybe it just shouldn't be used? if it can't be done by a human, then leave it. you say the script is "only computer assisted jumping." but then it leads to, "its only computer assisted aiming." "it's only computer assisted sight." We all know there's a difference between aimbotting/wallhacking and bunnyhopping, but if we let scripts to be used and people just argue the hacks are only computer assistance, then we have very little options left. consider us leaving mp_bs to 1 as covering our bases. i know that i can pull off a slight speed increase without scripts and i'm happy with that. \  </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> 
Congratulations, you've pulled off the WEAKEST ARGUMENT IN THE HISTORY OF MANKIND. If you don't want electronic manipulation of user input, <b>start throwing away your mouse and keyboard right now, and just kick them electrons yourself.</b>

The Half-Life scripting language is a completely intentional way of helping the interpretation of keyboard input - because at its concept, it was obvious that no amount of foresight could guess all keys someone could possibly want to bind, or key combinations. So with a restriction called "wait;", which is the inate barrier to high levels of automation, this extremely simple language became a major cornerstone of Half-Lifes success (although not even nearly unique to the game). Without it, alot of the control configuration necessary to even make a non-HLDM mod playable would be cumbersome at best. This all isn't more automated or less interactive then the default binds - in fact, the default binds use the exact same mini-language as any script, and are technically just predefined aliases. In short, the amount of times you can jump with one keypress is up to you - <b>the intentional limit already exists in the form of the wait command, a script too large or attempting to repeat too fast will not function.</b>

Calling a 3jump "assisted jumping" is like calling an optical mouse "assisted aiming" - entirely correct, but aside from its value as flamebait an entirely useless statement.

Hieyeck · November 2004

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (TheAdj` @ Nov 10 2004, 06:45 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> </div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Hieyeck @ Nov 10 2004, 05:38 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> </div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>What you're saying is this: You don't need 3jump in order to bhop.
The Reality is this: Without 3jump/mousewheel, it is impossible to keep a constant bhop. Nadagast is one of the best bhoppers in the competitive community, and he can't keep bhop maxed out with just +jump. If he's one of the best and can't do it, do you think anyone else can? It's the way the HL engine deals with jumping, it makes it difficult to impossible to do it without some type of jump-timing aid. </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>then has it occured that maybe it just shouldn't be used? if it can't be done by a human, then leave it. you say the script is "only computer assisted jumping." but then it leads to, "its only computer assisted aiming." "it's only computer assisted sight." We all know there's a difference between aimbotting/wallhacking and bunnyhopping, but if we let scripts to be used and people just argue the hacks are only computer assistance, then we have very little options left. consider us leaving mp_bs to 1 as covering our bases. i know that i can pull off a slight speed increase without scripts and i'm happy with that. </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>What I'm saying is that it's possible to bhop without a 3jump, BUT it still requires an alternate, non-regular button setup to do so (The mousewheel or some type of turbo button - discount macros, that's beyond our scope). Aliens are indeed balanced around bhopping, thus it should be possible for any alien that learns how to bhop to be allowed to do so. It requires some type of jump-spamming ability because that's a technicality of the game engine that other Quake-based games do not have, it's particular to HL itself. If you accept bhop is part of the game and is balanced into it for the alien team, then you also accept that you must allow people to do it and have the means to do it. bs 1 prevents one way of bhopping. There are other ways but for people that use 3jump (or must, some people don't have a mousewheel), you are preventing them using something that is a convenience to them. I guess I should run a server and rebind people's keys as they join to match my config because I know it's the safe way to make sure everyone plays with the same setup. Sounds good in theory, right? <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/mad-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='mad-fix.gif' />

Also, never compare scripts to aimbotting even remotely. I will break out the logical fallacies links if it's used again, because it's preposterous to compare the two in any way. </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>
<a href='http://www.guns4back2school.com/stats/server1/maplist.php?ps_sess_id=a9e98b3266dcce75b4c4953b01c23c40' target='_blank'>http://www.guns4back2school.com/stats/serv...4c4953b01c23c40</a>

we run one little mod to fix balance and that is res fix. before this mod marine wins vs alien wins were still about 50:50. right now, aliens probably have close to a 60% chance of winning. seems this 'bhopping is meant for balance' is overrated, as you see from the stats and they don't lie.

furthermore, another part of my post states fairly clearly: </div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>if nadagast has the option of using a mousewheel and macros, and which nadagast also says he can use </div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>I can do it without the script if I use the mwheel... </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> then why the gripe about 'mp_bs 1'? maybe he also wants to use some other scripts to exploit other parts of the engine? I'm not accusing you of anything nadagast and from watching the numerous demos submitted, you seem to be doing fine without them, but this IS one logical path that can be taken. </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> i already asked and i'll ask again, why gripe about 'bs 1' if you dont need it?

*i know that comparison is stupid... </div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>We all know there's a difference between aimbotting/wallhacking and bunnyhopping, but if we let scripts to be used and people just argue the hacks are only computer assistance, then we have very little options left.</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> i apologize if my explaination wasn't very clear, but what i was pointing out with this is that pubs, especiallly one as large as g4b2s, get some pretty lame hackers and jerkoffs who HAVE tried to skew our rules so that it looks legal. </div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>consider us leaving mp_bs to 1 as covering our bases.</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> let me rephrase that if it isn't quite clear. we are leaving mp_bs set at 1 because we wish to cover all our bases and at the same time slow down any new exploits that might come forth.

i feel that one point needs to be emphasized again, that no one ever hears of the good times pubs share with vets and clanners. i know for a fact that many vets/clanners stop by on g4b2s servers and have a jolly old time with no one complaining about anything. in fact, i recognize a number of names who've replied to this topic as people who've showed up on g4b2s servers with that almighty yellow icon. they open up a can on grade AAA whoop **** on us and we all laugh and complain about how its NSPlayer's fault that it happened (its always that damned NSPlayer!).

as for many of your views that communities are becomming more ignorant allow me to point out how communities view this is a matter of their own opinion and 99% of them like how they're running it. as you've said yourself, the number of 'ignorant' is growing while those who agree with the 'experienced' players slowly dwindle. i'm holding you to this because it MIGHT just be possible that these people are the ones who are open-minded and are on to somthing be having mp_bs 1? could the original community have stagnated? before voogru joined the dev team, and even now, i don't see some of the larger communities having any say in the changes. just doing a quick skim thru of these forums (g4b2s, nsarmslab, whendarknessfalls, teamplay.uni.cc, clan nar, voogru - except for voogru himself ) i don't see a single dev paying any attention. wait i stand corrected. i just noticed Zunni posting on g4b2s - unless this is an imposter, for we all know the gods would never stoop so low as to dirty themselves with pubs <_< <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/nerd-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='nerd-fix.gif' /> . in which case we're back at no attention paid at all...

[edit]apparently my likening of scripting to hacking has been taken the wrong way... <_< i'll point you to paragraph 5 of this post. (look for the *)

What Needs To Happen

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