<!--quoteo(post=1842608:date=Apr 26 2011, 11:02 PM:name=KuBaN)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (KuBaN @ Apr 26 2011, 11:02 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1842608"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->it takes 4 minutes for a ResTower just to reclaim the 20 TRes spent to drop<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not any more. Harvesters only cost 15 T-Res, and take 3 min's to break even. Plus, you post is tooo long. You are trying to communicate with very busy people.
i don´t like the pustules haven´t played SC2 but from watching youtube, i feel they look ugly
For the commander: I would prefer a vein placed like a sentry, the advantage of them seems to be that you have to go deeper into alienteritory to kill it.
For the gorgy: Pustules fit better for him, but at the expense of costing personal resources, he should decide between increasing teritory or defending teritory (hydras).
Situation-example: Tram, Alienstart-> Alienexpansion The fastest way to invest would be gorge pustule placed near the wall/rt, like it is now, killable by any weapon The savest and slowest way are veins around the corners only killable by flamer
Limiting pustulekilling only on axes sound like sending peons to go woodcutting.
<!--quoteo(post=1842692:date=Apr 27 2011, 08:36 AM:name=crae)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (crae @ Apr 27 2011, 08:36 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1842692"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Not any more. Harvesters only cost 15 T-Res, and take 3 min's to break even.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Thanks for the clarification.
I agree that RTs are too big of an investment right now. Increasing their health could result in tedious gameplay. Instead, lower the time it takes for them to pay for themselves by increasing team resource income per RT, and compensate by reducing personal resource income.
This would make the early-game less momentous, let commanders choose what type of res they want (via p.res production upgrades), increase the importance of staying alive with lifeforms/weapons, and put focus on map control rather than the ability to snipe RTs, since the relative cost of rebuilding an RT would go down.
<!--quoteo(post=1842566:date=Apr 27 2011, 08:13 AM:name=Kouji_San)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kouji_San @ Apr 27 2011, 08:13 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1842566"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->On the subject of the last resource node, why not change the concept completely. By removing the resource nodes from tech point rooms and instead have the Hive and CC itself produces resources at the same rate the initial restower did...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yep.
I suggested a similar thing before: Each tech node is also a res node, and each CC/hive is also an extractor/harvester; but each res node is only a res node, and each extractor/harvester is only an extractor/harvester. I think it would also make more sense / be more consistent, from a game lore point of view.
QuovatisTeam InversionJoin Date: 2010-01-26Member: 70321Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
Tech points already have a nifty little graphic under the ground and it wouldn't be hard to be convinced that it too can extract resources. But as I said, if you do this, you need to also slow the resource production rate, unless you also want to go back and raise the price of everything, as each team will be getting res faster.
QuovatisTeam InversionJoin Date: 2010-01-26Member: 70321Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
Uh, I thought that's obvious. At the start of the game, instead of having 1 res node, each team would have 2 nodes (tech point and regular node). So they would get twice the res flow as they do currently. If you got rid of all the starting nodes, it might work, but that's a lot of mapping changes. Lengthening the time between res ticks is a quick fix.
<!--quoteo(post=1842747:date=Apr 27 2011, 12:30 PM:name=Harimau)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Harimau @ Apr 27 2011, 12:30 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1842747"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't understand, what causes them to gain res faster?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Any expansion room without nodes would now be a source of res as well. I don't see the extra res income becoming too significant, but because hives also act as spawn points it makes hive rushing an even more desirable tactic for the alien comm since it would be generating not only spawn points but extra res income. Why place harvesters when for 5 extra res you get a super harvester? Probably why alien hives should cost at least twice that of an RT.
Right now for the same res, a hive provides much greater benefits than a CC.
QuovatisTeam InversionJoin Date: 2010-01-26Member: 70321Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
edited April 2011
Perhaps any new CC should come with a free auto-built IP? Maybe have to increase the res cost of a CC, since you could just recycle the IP and get a very cheap CC out of it. But at least that would bring it a little closer to what hives give aliens.
>Marines need way to deal with DI before flamethrowers.
How about changing the way DI behaves in powered areas. Make DI recede like the Gorge's temporary DI when the area power node is active. The area can still be infested by the alien commander or Gorge, but it will recede unless the power node is destroyed.
Currently the power nodes are only really useful for turning on the lights... You could say that power is required to power marine buildings, but if the area has been infested, marines still cannot build there anyways.... Especially in the early game.
Maybe once the power node is unpowered and infested, a flame thrower must be used to clear it before it can be repaired. Also, games could start with the nodes on the alien side of the map already destroyed to help at the start of the game.
Let's encourage some battles over territory that focus on powered/infested areas.
McGlaspiewww.team156.comJoin Date: 2010-07-26Member: 73044Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, Squad Five Gold, Reinforced - Onos, WC 2013 - Gold, Subnautica Playtester
<!--quoteo(post=1842762:date=Apr 27 2011, 03:47 PM:name=EmpV)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (EmpV @ Apr 27 2011, 03:47 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1842762"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->>Marines need way to deal with DI before flamethrowers.
How about changing the way DI behaves in powered areas. Make DI recede like the Gorge's temporary DI when the area power node is active. The area can still be infested by the alien commander or Gorge, but it will recede unless the power node is destroyed.
Let's encourage some battles over territory that focus on powered/infested areas.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Big, BIG +1 to that! This really gives aliens a reason to kill power nodes. Right now, there really isn't much reason. It's easier to just kill the buildings, with the exception of powering down all turrets in a room.
This would also play up the bacteria vs nanites aspect of the NS world, which would be a good thing! This could even open up research options for marines to increase the effectiveness of anti-bacteria nanites field or some techno-gibberish like that.
<!--quoteo(post=1842735:date=Apr 27 2011, 01:21 PM:name=Jaweese)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jaweese @ Apr 27 2011, 01:21 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1842735"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I agree that RTs are too big of an investment right now. Increasing their health could result in tedious gameplay. Instead, lower the time it takes for them to pay for themselves by increasing team resource income per RT, and compensate by reducing personal resource income.
This would make the early-game less momentous, let commanders choose what type of res they want (via p.res production upgrades), increase the importance of staying alive with lifeforms/weapons, and put focus on map control rather than the ability to snipe RTs, since the relative cost of rebuilding an RT would go down.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't understand how increasing their health and thereby making ResTowers harder to kill would make game-play tedious. It's pretty tedious right now to have to juggle nodes because nothing stays up long enough. Even if you were able to regain the lost Res quicker, if the Towers go down just as soon it's still just as tedious. I'd prefer longer battles over specific territories over having all Marines buzzing around like bees.
Think of ResTower Health similarly to the control point timers in TF2.
By tedious, I meant boring. It would be boring to munch on an rt for 2 minutes, or whatever time you had in mind. Hives and CCs already have high health, but I think that creates options for the attackers. If you can't afford a full-scale attack, you could settle for killing an rt instead of a CC.
It's important to find a sweet spot and I think they are pretty close to it right now. If for instance it takes 10 seconds to run to an rt from spawn, and 10 seconds to spawn, that's 2 chances to kill the skulk it before the rt dies.
I'm not sure what your point is with the TF2 control point reference. Capturing most points takes only 10-15 seconds.
>Marines need way to deal with DI before flamethrowers.
How about a secondary fire for the SG (maybe you need to research/bu it before) that would allow you to shoot acid or technological grenades that would cure DI in its spread zone.
And how about the return of welders with an other role : burning DI ?
<!--quoteo(post=1842739:date=Apr 27 2011, 07:36 PM:name=Harimau)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Harimau @ Apr 27 2011, 07:36 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1842739"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->On the subject of the last resource node, why not change the concept completely. By removing the resource nodes from tech point rooms and instead have the Hive and CC itself produces resources at the same rate the initial restower did...
Yep.
I suggested a similar thing before: Each tech node is also a res node, and each CC/hive is also an extractor/harvester; but each res node is only a res node, and each extractor/harvester is only an extractor/harvester. I think it would also make more sense / be more consistent, from a game lore point of view.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<b>~1</b> I think only <b>ONE </b>CC/hive should also produce res. Expand to a new tech node should only be done if you want to tech up and you should loose all your tier if you loose/sell your expansion.
BTW : To prevent invisible system, why not add a research (purchasable on one technode and if the CC/hive is destroyed can be purchased on another node) that let your CC/hive produce res (only Tres maybe?). Also, it would be purchased on the first CC/hive every time you start a round.
<!--quoteo(post=1842770:date=Apr 27 2011, 09:21 PM:name=KuBaN)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (KuBaN @ Apr 27 2011, 09:21 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1842770"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'd prefer longer battles over specific territories over having all Marines buzzing around like bees.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> This one is a bit tricky if you ask me.
While sometimes I'd appreciate more strategical territories and such, it's also a part where the original NS didn't work very fluently. The more territorial the game gets, the more issues the melee vs ranged setup has. Even with the intense movement and twitch skill requirements a lot of the alien depth in NS1 relies on your ability to judge situations, know how and when to engage and so on. The territorial gameplay ends up dictating a lot of details on those engagements and as a result aliens can end up feeling they're just throwing themselves and hoping the enemy doesn't find the hitbox in time.
The more skirmishy gameplay also made commanding feel quite unique instead of just being yet another strategically limited and mechanically awkward RTS. It offered a lot more ways to control the map flow and options to sort of bring your opponent off balance. It probably wasn't the most delicate strategical game, but it was unique and sort of drew strength from the FPS part instead of simply being limited by it.
So yeah, I've been worried about NS2 being too territorial. I don't want to dictate that NS2 should be similar kind of skirmish oriented game, but the weaknesses of NS1 territorial play should definitely be aknowledged in NS2 design. Simply slapping NS1 mechanics into territorial play isn't the way to go.
>removing the resource nodes from tech point rooms and instead have the Hive and CC itself produces resources
That's an interesting idea. It does solve the 0 RT issue and provides incentive not to recycle the 2nd or 3rd CC. The cost will have to include the CC cost and RT cost, whatever that is, 35 T-Res?. CC's and hives are too cheap for my liking anyway. It would also give each side 1 more resource node: Marine Expansion & Server room (merge elevator with the nearby RT). That's allot of changes to game-play and the map though.
<!--quoteo(post=1842750:date=Apr 28 2011, 02:42 AM:name=Quovatis)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Quovatis @ Apr 28 2011, 02:42 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1842750"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Uh, I thought that's obvious. At the start of the game, instead of having 1 res node, each team would have 2 nodes (tech point and regular node). So they would get twice the res flow as they do currently. If you got rid of all the starting nodes, it might work, but that's a lot of mapping changes. Lengthening the time between res ticks is a quick fix.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> ...? <!--quoteo(post=1842566:date=Apr 27 2011, 08:13 AM:name=Kouji_San)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kouji_San @ Apr 27 2011, 08:13 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1842566"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->By <u>removing the resource nodes from tech point rooms</u> and instead have the Hive and CC itself produces resources at the same rate the initial restower did...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1842753:date=Apr 28 2011, 02:50 AM:name=Lazer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Lazer @ Apr 28 2011, 02:50 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1842753"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Any expansion room without nodes would now be a source of res as well.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Fair enough. But that's a matter of map design, or more specifically, room design - node placement.
There's no doubt that it changes the dynamic (in fact, that's kind of the point...) but is that necessarily a bad thing?
<!--quoteo(post=1842921:date=Apr 28 2011, 07:28 PM:name=PedoKuma)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (PedoKuma @ Apr 28 2011, 07:28 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1842921"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><b>~1</b> I think only first CC/hive should also produce res. Expand to a new tech node should only be done if you want to tech up and you should loose all your tier if you loose/sell your expansion.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> But what happens if you end up losing your starting CC/hive - and all the resource towers? You end up with the same situation you wanted to avoid by making CCs/Hives act as resource towers. That thinking would only encourage you to turtle your starting location... which is another thing we wanted to avoid.
Regarding the resource tower issue... and this idea spawned from someone's mention of TF2 control points... What if you made them close to free, and have lower health? Just food for thought. Taking new res points would play more like TF2/Battlefield control points. This reduces the tedium of munching on them for two minutes. They would pay for themselves much quicker. And you wouldn't need to defend them so adamantly since (assuming you still have influence there) you could easily replace them; so your team could be more focused on defending other structures, or assaulting enemy positions. Of course, you would have to nerf the tactical nuke that is the marine shotgun, <u>at least</u> against structures. If you paired that with the tech node also equals res node idea, then tech nodes would be your more robust sources of income, and more important points to hold; and res nodes would be your 'quick fixes', more vulnerable to harassment and such.
>But what happens if you end up losing your starting CC/hive - and all the resource towers? You end up with the same situation you wanted to avoid by making CCs/Hives act as resource towers. That thinking would only encourage you to turtle your starting location... which is another thing we wanted to avoid.
I don't think you have read my entire post. Too much RT would change radically the dynamic. We already have too much plasma with 2/3 RT so what will it be with 2/3+ "free" RT ? Also, why would you buy fast new <i>weak</i> RTs in early game instead of buying a CC/hive with far more health/armor? That would lower the number of viable build orders.
Maybe the solution is to change all prices and/or maybe to make tech nodes only producing Team res but I don't like the idea. Or maybe, as I said, it could be an upgrade on the CCs/hives that could be purchasable for free or some energy. Or maybe I'm really wrong.
Kouji_SanSr. Hινε UÏкεεÏεг - EUPT DeputyThe NetherlandsJoin Date: 2003-05-13Member: 16271Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
edited April 2011
The suggestion was that tech_point rooms<b> do not </b>have resnodes. The Hive or CC are the source of resources int those rooms, while the other rooms only have resnodes. If you lose your starting Hive/CC and all map resnodes you still might have a secondary base (Hive/CC)
Losing all Hives or CC's automatically ends the round as usual :)
Kouji_SanSr. Hινε UÏкεεÏεг - EUPT DeputyThe NetherlandsJoin Date: 2003-05-13Member: 16271Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
<!--quoteo(post=1842956:date=Apr 28 2011, 03:47 PM:name=Align)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Align @ Apr 28 2011, 03:47 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1842956"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->What I'd like to know is why this wasn't considered a problem in NS1.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Because now RFK seems to be a nono :P
Rather than have them be an obvious blob of geometry, consider making them more in-line with the rest of the infestation.
Make it more like a bit of the infestation surface that stands out, with say a reddish tendril structure around it and maybe make it glow. Basically just try to mitigate the 'decals coming from a model' feel a bit. If you light it up and put a unique bit of infestation texture around it, it will look much better than having an actual structure to destroy, but you still can tell where to shoot.
<!--quoteo(post=1842566:date=Apr 27 2011, 01:13 AM:name=Kouji_San)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kouji_San @ Apr 27 2011, 01:13 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1842566"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->On the subject of the last resource node, why not change the concept completely. By removing the resource nodes from tech point rooms and instead have the Hive and CC itself produces resources at the same rate the initial restower did...
<ul><li>This way you wont have the problem of an invisible system (behind the scenes)</li><li>When the Hive or CC goes down, the round ends. Instead of having this second target (the main room resnodes) messing with the gameplay.</li><li>It makes the Hive and CC even more important for game play purposes</li><li>Gameplay: Having more rooms for resource nodes in between the main tech point rooms, opening up more tactics on a map</li></ul>
It might be completely different from NS, but hell NS2 ain't NS now is it. One thing which speak against this is the fact you can't take out their resource production anymore by taking out the nodes in the main rooms. But this is a cause of a problem, which introduces a smaller problem if you weigh the two against each other IMHO :)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Good idea but I'd change one thing.
Rather than having all tech nodes also be resource nodes, instead make it so that if you have a resource node AND a tech node nearby, the tech node 'protects' the resource node somehow.
For aliens, this would manifest as say, stuff growing out of the hive and around the resource tower to make it heavily resistant to damage, and also grow little mini-whips which smack marines around if they go near it.
For marines, wires go across the floor from the comm chair to electrify the resource node and make it resist damage with a shield or something.
Basically not all tech points are res nodes, but tech points that have res nodes make the res node much tougher if you build both.
That way it's more consistent, and you still have the option of tech nodes without resource nodes in them, which I think is important.
<!--quoteo(post=1842806:date=Apr 27 2011, 07:07 PM:name=Jaweese)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jaweese @ Apr 27 2011, 07:07 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1842806"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->By tedious, I meant boring. It would be boring to munch on an rt for 2 minutes, or whatever time you had in mind. Hives and CCs already have high health, but I think that creates options for the attackers. If you can't afford a full-scale attack, you could settle for killing an rt instead of a CC.
It's important to find a sweet spot and I think they are pretty close to it right now. If for instance it takes 10 seconds to run to an rt from spawn, and 10 seconds to spawn, that's 2 chances to kill the skulk it before the rt dies.
I'm not sure what your point is with the TF2 control point reference. Capturing most points takes only 10-15 seconds.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Skulks shouldn't be munching an RT for 2 minutes, because they shouldn't be single-handedly taking out every RT on the map. As performance increases, the average player count in servers will get larger, and this issue may or may not become more apparent. I guess we'll see.
Also, re TF2 CP capture time: <a href="http://tf2wiki.net/wiki/Control_point_timing" target="_blank">http://tf2wiki.net/wiki/Control_point_timing</a> But also, if I recall correctly, if all capturing players are removed from the point, the timer goes back to 0. In NS2 the time can be reduced or restored by attacking or repairing, but it doesn't immediately reset. The conditions are not the same.
<!--quoteo(post=1842544:date=Apr 26 2011, 11:13 PM:name=Chris0132)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chris0132 @ Apr 26 2011, 11:13 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1842544"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Pustule idea is good, but I suggest you make it so that the further back into the DI the node is, the tougher it is.
This would probably be good for DI in general, that the stuff further in is harder to clear out, so attacking the edges is easier but less effective, while attacking the centre could kill off more but takes longer.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Simple mechanic for this is to have the structure self-building, starting with low HP (just like in NS). This means by default the pustules on the frontline will always have less health unless the Marines allow them to go unchecked.
Rewards scouting for the Marines and defence for the Aliens.
<b><<<</b> <i><b>Team without Extractor or Harvester doesn’t get any more resources and may not ever be able to build another </b></i><b>>>></b>
_sorry for my bad English__
Just quick silly idea, that came from my personal brainstorming. Please look at it just in terms of brainstorming.
I am thinking about some kind of device (marines) / organism (Kharaa), call it in general "<u><b>Symbiont</b></u>", that can be attached to enemy Extractor/Harvester and sucks the team resources from it, for the team, that hasn´t got enough team resources. Symbiont is created from energy (command center, hive, individual resources from more players) and can be carried by marines, MAC´S / Kharaa. Can be drop down and pick up again. When it is attached, for certain time, it sucks amount of resources and disable the host Extractor/Harvester.
I didn´t think it through so much, so excuse me. But I enjoy think about NS2 and be part of community. Maybe, anybody has better idea
<!--quoteo(post=1842767:date=Apr 27 2011, 10:09 PM:name=McGlaspie)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (McGlaspie @ Apr 27 2011, 10:09 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1842767"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Big, BIG +1 to that! This really gives aliens a reason to kill power nodes. Right now, there really isn't much reason. It's easier to just kill the buildings, with the exception of powering down all turrets in a room.
This would also play up the bacteria vs nanites aspect of the NS world, which would be a good thing! This could even open up research options for marines to increase the effectiveness of anti-bacteria nanites field or some techno-gibberish like that.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
+1 from me too.. Seems like people aren't taking to this idea but when I first heard about DI I actually thought this was the way it would work, infestation would spread through alien controlled areas and recede from marine zones. But the spread would have to be made automatic because otherwise the aliens would have to spend energy to spread while marines could just repair (for free) power nodes to get rid of it.
Alternatively maybe a room being powered doesn't destroy infestation but just halts its progress. Power would prevent spread but you'd still need a flamer to get rid of it. This makes unpowered rooms very dangerous early game and less so as the game goes on.
Any random weapon being able to destroy infestation sounds like a terrible idea to me and very marine-favored.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->How about changing the way DI behaves in powered areas. Make DI recede like the Gorge's temporary DI when the area power node is active. The area can still be infested by the alien commander or Gorge, but it will recede unless the power node is destroyed.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Comments
Not any more. Harvesters only cost 15 T-Res, and take 3 min's to break even. Plus, you post is tooo long. You are trying to communicate with very busy people.
haven´t played SC2 but from watching youtube, i feel they look ugly
For the commander:
I would prefer a vein placed like a sentry, the advantage of them seems to be that you have to go deeper into alienteritory to kill it.
For the gorgy:
Pustules fit better for him, but at the expense of costing personal resources, he should decide between increasing teritory or defending teritory (hydras).
Situation-example: Tram, Alienstart-> Alienexpansion
The fastest way to invest would be gorge pustule placed near the wall/rt, like it is now, killable by any weapon
The savest and slowest way are veins around the corners only killable by flamer
Limiting pustulekilling only on axes sound like sending peons to go woodcutting.
Thanks for the clarification.
This would make the early-game less momentous, let commanders choose what type of res they want (via p.res production upgrades), increase the importance of staying alive with lifeforms/weapons, and put focus on map control rather than the ability to snipe RTs, since the relative cost of rebuilding an RT would go down.
Yep.
I suggested a similar thing before: Each tech node is also a res node, and each CC/hive is also an extractor/harvester; but each res node is only a res node, and each extractor/harvester is only an extractor/harvester.
I think it would also make more sense / be more consistent, from a game lore point of view.
I don't understand, what causes them to gain res faster?
Any expansion room without nodes would now be a source of res as well. I don't see the extra res income becoming too significant, but because hives also act as spawn points it makes hive rushing an even more desirable tactic for the alien comm since it would be generating not only spawn points but extra res income. Why place harvesters when for 5 extra res you get a super harvester? Probably why alien hives should cost at least twice that of an RT.
Right now for the same res, a hive provides much greater benefits than a CC.
How about changing the way DI behaves in powered areas. Make DI recede like the Gorge's temporary DI when the area power node is active.
The area can still be infested by the alien commander or Gorge, but it will recede unless the power node is destroyed.
Currently the power nodes are only really useful for turning on the lights... You could say that power is required to power marine buildings, but if the area has been infested, marines still cannot build there anyways.... Especially in the early game.
Maybe once the power node is unpowered and infested, a flame thrower must be used to clear it before it can be repaired. Also, games could start with the nodes on the alien side of the map already destroyed to help at the start of the game.
Let's encourage some battles over territory that focus on powered/infested areas.
How about changing the way DI behaves in powered areas. Make DI recede like the Gorge's temporary DI when the area power node is active.
The area can still be infested by the alien commander or Gorge, but it will recede unless the power node is destroyed.
Let's encourage some battles over territory that focus on powered/infested areas.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Big, BIG +1 to that! This really gives aliens a reason to kill power nodes. Right now, there really isn't much reason. It's easier to just kill the buildings, with the exception of powering down all turrets in a room.
This would also play up the bacteria vs nanites aspect of the NS world, which would be a good thing! This could even open up research options for marines to increase the effectiveness of anti-bacteria nanites field or some techno-gibberish like that.
This would make the early-game less momentous, let commanders choose what type of res they want (via p.res production upgrades), increase the importance of staying alive with lifeforms/weapons, and put focus on map control rather than the ability to snipe RTs, since the relative cost of rebuilding an RT would go down.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't understand how increasing their health and thereby making ResTowers harder to kill would make game-play tedious. It's pretty tedious right now to have to juggle nodes because nothing stays up long enough. Even if you were able to regain the lost Res quicker, if the Towers go down just as soon it's still just as tedious. I'd prefer longer battles over specific territories over having all Marines buzzing around like bees.
Think of ResTower Health similarly to the control point timers in TF2.
It's important to find a sweet spot and I think they are pretty close to it right now. If for instance it takes 10 seconds to run to an rt from spawn, and 10 seconds to spawn, that's 2 chances to kill the skulk it before the rt dies.
I'm not sure what your point is with the TF2 control point reference. Capturing most points takes only 10-15 seconds.
How about a secondary fire for the SG (maybe you need to research/bu it before) that would allow you to shoot acid or technological grenades that would cure DI in its spread zone.
And how about the return of welders with an other role : burning DI ?
<!--quoteo(post=1842739:date=Apr 27 2011, 07:36 PM:name=Harimau)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Harimau @ Apr 27 2011, 07:36 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1842739"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->On the subject of the last resource node, why not change the concept completely. By removing the resource nodes from tech point rooms and instead have the Hive and CC itself produces resources at the same rate the initial restower did...
Yep.
I suggested a similar thing before: Each tech node is also a res node, and each CC/hive is also an extractor/harvester; but each res node is only a res node, and each extractor/harvester is only an extractor/harvester.
I think it would also make more sense / be more consistent, from a game lore point of view.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<b>~1</b> I think only <b>ONE </b>CC/hive should also produce res. Expand to a new tech node should only be done if you want to tech up and you should loose all your tier if you loose/sell your expansion.
BTW : To prevent invisible system, why not add a research (purchasable on one technode and if the CC/hive is destroyed can be purchased on another node) that let your CC/hive produce res (only Tres maybe?). Also, it would be purchased on the first CC/hive every time you start a round.
This one is a bit tricky if you ask me.
While sometimes I'd appreciate more strategical territories and such, it's also a part where the original NS didn't work very fluently. The more territorial the game gets, the more issues the melee vs ranged setup has. Even with the intense movement and twitch skill requirements a lot of the alien depth in NS1 relies on your ability to judge situations, know how and when to engage and so on. The territorial gameplay ends up dictating a lot of details on those engagements and as a result aliens can end up feeling they're just throwing themselves and hoping the enemy doesn't find the hitbox in time.
The more skirmishy gameplay also made commanding feel quite unique instead of just being yet another strategically limited and mechanically awkward RTS. It offered a lot more ways to control the map flow and options to sort of bring your opponent off balance. It probably wasn't the most delicate strategical game, but it was unique and sort of drew strength from the FPS part instead of simply being limited by it.
So yeah, I've been worried about NS2 being too territorial. I don't want to dictate that NS2 should be similar kind of skirmish oriented game, but the weaknesses of NS1 territorial play should definitely be aknowledged in NS2 design. Simply slapping NS1 mechanics into territorial play isn't the way to go.
That's an interesting idea. It does solve the 0 RT issue and provides incentive not to recycle the 2nd or 3rd CC. The cost will have to include the CC cost and RT cost, whatever that is, 35 T-Res?. CC's and hives are too cheap for my liking anyway. It would also give each side 1 more resource node: Marine Expansion & Server room (merge elevator with the nearby RT). That's allot of changes to game-play and the map though.
...?
<!--quoteo(post=1842566:date=Apr 27 2011, 08:13 AM:name=Kouji_San)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kouji_San @ Apr 27 2011, 08:13 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1842566"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->By <u>removing the resource nodes from tech point rooms</u> and instead have the Hive and CC itself produces resources at the same rate the initial restower did...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1842753:date=Apr 28 2011, 02:50 AM:name=Lazer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Lazer @ Apr 28 2011, 02:50 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1842753"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Any expansion room without nodes would now be a source of res as well.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Fair enough. But that's a matter of map design, or more specifically, room design - node placement.
There's no doubt that it changes the dynamic (in fact, that's kind of the point...) but is that necessarily a bad thing?
<!--quoteo(post=1842921:date=Apr 28 2011, 07:28 PM:name=PedoKuma)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (PedoKuma @ Apr 28 2011, 07:28 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1842921"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><b>~1</b> I think only first CC/hive should also produce res. Expand to a new tech node should only be done if you want to tech up and you should loose all your tier if you loose/sell your expansion.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
But what happens if you end up losing your starting CC/hive - and all the resource towers? You end up with the same situation you wanted to avoid by making CCs/Hives act as resource towers. That thinking would only encourage you to turtle your starting location... which is another thing we wanted to avoid.
Regarding the resource tower issue... and this idea spawned from someone's mention of TF2 control points... What if you made them close to free, and have lower health? Just food for thought. Taking new res points would play more like TF2/Battlefield control points. This reduces the tedium of munching on them for two minutes. They would pay for themselves much quicker. And you wouldn't need to defend them so adamantly since (assuming you still have influence there) you could easily replace them; so your team could be more focused on defending other structures, or assaulting enemy positions. Of course, you would have to nerf the tactical nuke that is the marine shotgun, <u>at least</u> against structures.
If you paired that with the tech node also equals res node idea, then tech nodes would be your more robust sources of income, and more important points to hold; and res nodes would be your 'quick fixes', more vulnerable to harassment and such.
I don't think you have read my entire post. Too much RT would change radically the dynamic. We already have too much plasma with 2/3 RT so what will it be with 2/3+ "free" RT ?
Also, why would you buy fast new <i>weak</i> RTs in early game instead of buying a CC/hive with far more health/armor? That would lower the number of viable build orders.
Maybe the solution is to change all prices and/or maybe to make tech nodes only producing Team res but I don't like the idea. Or maybe, as I said, it could be an upgrade on the CCs/hives that could be purchasable for free or some energy. Or maybe I'm really wrong.
Losing all Hives or CC's automatically ends the round as usual :)
Because now RFK seems to be a nono :P
Rather than have them be an obvious blob of geometry, consider making them more in-line with the rest of the infestation.
Make it more like a bit of the infestation surface that stands out, with say a reddish tendril structure around it and maybe make it glow. Basically just try to mitigate the 'decals coming from a model' feel a bit. If you light it up and put a unique bit of infestation texture around it, it will look much better than having an actual structure to destroy, but you still can tell where to shoot.
<!--quoteo(post=1842566:date=Apr 27 2011, 01:13 AM:name=Kouji_San)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kouji_San @ Apr 27 2011, 01:13 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1842566"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->On the subject of the last resource node, why not change the concept completely. By removing the resource nodes from tech point rooms and instead have the Hive and CC itself produces resources at the same rate the initial restower did...
<ul><li>This way you wont have the problem of an invisible system (behind the scenes)</li><li>When the Hive or CC goes down, the round ends. Instead of having this second target (the main room resnodes) messing with the gameplay.</li><li>It makes the Hive and CC even more important for game play purposes</li><li>Gameplay: Having more rooms for resource nodes in between the main tech point rooms, opening up more tactics on a map</li></ul>
It might be completely different from NS, but hell NS2 ain't NS now is it. One thing which speak against this is the fact you can't take out their resource production anymore by taking out the nodes in the main rooms. But this is a cause of a problem, which introduces a smaller problem if you weigh the two against each other IMHO :)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Good idea but I'd change one thing.
Rather than having all tech nodes also be resource nodes, instead make it so that if you have a resource node AND a tech node nearby, the tech node 'protects' the resource node somehow.
For aliens, this would manifest as say, stuff growing out of the hive and around the resource tower to make it heavily resistant to damage, and also grow little mini-whips which smack marines around if they go near it.
For marines, wires go across the floor from the comm chair to electrify the resource node and make it resist damage with a shield or something.
Basically not all tech points are res nodes, but tech points that have res nodes make the res node much tougher if you build both.
That way it's more consistent, and you still have the option of tech nodes without resource nodes in them, which I think is important.
It's important to find a sweet spot and I think they are pretty close to it right now. If for instance it takes 10 seconds to run to an rt from spawn, and 10 seconds to spawn, that's 2 chances to kill the skulk it before the rt dies.
I'm not sure what your point is with the TF2 control point reference. Capturing most points takes only 10-15 seconds.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Skulks shouldn't be munching an RT for 2 minutes, because they shouldn't be single-handedly taking out every RT on the map. As performance increases, the average player count in servers will get larger, and this issue may or may not become more apparent. I guess we'll see.
Also, re TF2 CP capture time: <a href="http://tf2wiki.net/wiki/Control_point_timing" target="_blank">http://tf2wiki.net/wiki/Control_point_timing</a>
But also, if I recall correctly, if all capturing players are removed from the point, the timer goes back to 0. In NS2 the time can be reduced or restored by attacking or repairing, but it doesn't immediately reset. The conditions are not the same.
This would probably be good for DI in general, that the stuff further in is harder to clear out, so attacking the edges is easier but less effective, while attacking the centre could kill off more but takes longer.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Simple mechanic for this is to have the structure self-building, starting with low HP (just like in NS). This means by default the pustules on the frontline will always have less health unless the Marines allow them to go unchecked.
Rewards scouting for the Marines and defence for the Aliens.
_sorry for my bad English__
Just quick silly idea, that came from my personal brainstorming. Please look at it just in terms of brainstorming.
I am thinking about some kind of device (marines) / organism (Kharaa), call it in general "<u><b>Symbiont</b></u>", that can be attached to enemy Extractor/Harvester and sucks the team resources from it, for the team, that hasn´t got enough team resources.
Symbiont is created from energy (command center, hive, individual resources from more players) and can be carried by marines, MAC´S / Kharaa. Can be drop down and pick up again. When it is attached, for certain time, it sucks amount of resources and disable the host Extractor/Harvester.
I didn´t think it through so much, so excuse me. But I enjoy think about NS2 and be part of community.
Maybe, anybody has better idea
This would also play up the bacteria vs nanites aspect of the NS world, which would be a good thing! This could even open up research options for marines to increase the effectiveness of anti-bacteria nanites field or some techno-gibberish like that.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
+1 from me too.. Seems like people aren't taking to this idea but when I first heard about DI I actually thought this was the way it would work, infestation would spread through alien controlled areas and recede from marine zones. But the spread would have to be made automatic because otherwise the aliens would have to spend energy to spread while marines could just repair (for free) power nodes to get rid of it.
Alternatively maybe a room being powered doesn't destroy infestation but just halts its progress. Power would prevent spread but you'd still need a flamer to get rid of it. This makes unpowered rooms very dangerous early game and less so as the game goes on.
Any random weapon being able to destroy infestation sounds like a terrible idea to me and very marine-favored.
The area can still be infested by the alien commander or Gorge, but it will recede unless the power node is destroyed.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sounds perfect to me :)