Why One Believes In God?
Dread
Join Date: 2002-07-24 Member: 993Members
Join Date: 2002-07-24 Member: 993Members
<div class="IPBDescription">Why should one believe?</div> There is not a bit of sarcasm in that question. Why some humans believe in god?
Is it because they are taught to believe in it? Because they know of better religion? In that case, they are not true believers per se. They just keep up their fate because they heard from their parents that it's the right religion.
Is it because they hope to claim a place in heaven? If that's it, they are not real believers either because then they believe only to be sure that they wont be punished in afterlife.
Is it because it gives them power to deal with everyday life? Again the reason for believing is purely selfish. The believer loves god only because it makes him feel better. Gives him something in exchange.
Now on to the second part of the topic: Why should one believe in god?
It's proven that the believer gets no benefits for believing besides the emotional good feeling, which is arguable and can be attained with other ways. So it obviously comes to the afterlife. God Takes the believers to heaven or gives them 70 virgin bribes or you get to the big party in Valhalla. What ever turns you on. But can god possibly be so unfair? He must know that it's a lucky stroke where you are born and your sourroundings has awfull lot to do with your faith. Now is it my fault that I'm not born in a mormon family and that's why I can't go to heaven? Also God hasn't given a sign of his existence in two milleniums. Come on, he must've known that there would be several competitors with him and he can't possibly think that everyone would believe in him without proof. If it comes down to "good people believe in god" and "bad people don't", does that mean that heaven is just a place where he throws his good creations and hell a place where he puts his bad creations? That's not fair either because again, environment has a huge effect on what you become. In the bible it says that God gave people a free will, so that means that in gods eyes everyone can decide if they become bad(eg. criminals, murderers) or good(eg. really kind people). Right? Wrong. It's not the childs fault if he has bad parents and they let their child become a criminal. I bet Saddam wasn't a bad person when he was born. He was just affected by the environment and hence, he should go to heaven too. So every criminal and non-believer is just a victim of their surroundings!
I guess what I'm trying say here, is that there can't be hell. Everyone goes to heaven or you just seize to exist.
So there are my rambling arguments. What do you think?
Is it because they are taught to believe in it? Because they know of better religion? In that case, they are not true believers per se. They just keep up their fate because they heard from their parents that it's the right religion.
Is it because they hope to claim a place in heaven? If that's it, they are not real believers either because then they believe only to be sure that they wont be punished in afterlife.
Is it because it gives them power to deal with everyday life? Again the reason for believing is purely selfish. The believer loves god only because it makes him feel better. Gives him something in exchange.
Now on to the second part of the topic: Why should one believe in god?
It's proven that the believer gets no benefits for believing besides the emotional good feeling, which is arguable and can be attained with other ways. So it obviously comes to the afterlife. God Takes the believers to heaven or gives them 70 virgin bribes or you get to the big party in Valhalla. What ever turns you on. But can god possibly be so unfair? He must know that it's a lucky stroke where you are born and your sourroundings has awfull lot to do with your faith. Now is it my fault that I'm not born in a mormon family and that's why I can't go to heaven? Also God hasn't given a sign of his existence in two milleniums. Come on, he must've known that there would be several competitors with him and he can't possibly think that everyone would believe in him without proof. If it comes down to "good people believe in god" and "bad people don't", does that mean that heaven is just a place where he throws his good creations and hell a place where he puts his bad creations? That's not fair either because again, environment has a huge effect on what you become. In the bible it says that God gave people a free will, so that means that in gods eyes everyone can decide if they become bad(eg. criminals, murderers) or good(eg. really kind people). Right? Wrong. It's not the childs fault if he has bad parents and they let their child become a criminal. I bet Saddam wasn't a bad person when he was born. He was just affected by the environment and hence, he should go to heaven too. So every criminal and non-believer is just a victim of their surroundings!
I guess what I'm trying say here, is that there can't be hell. Everyone goes to heaven or you just seize to exist.
So there are my rambling arguments. What do you think?
Comments
I know what you mean but I've decided that if there is nothing after death, I might as well do this life thing first. It's fun in this moment. It won't probably beat being non-existant but the whole dying part must be annoying.
Of course I came up with this idea:
What if a mind believes sturdy enough in heaven, it will stay drifting in europhoric state after death. So it would be kind of natural state. But if you don't believe in anything, your mind just withers away in the non-existence.
But basically it's pretty much the same if I die or live on this instant second because I don't feel pain or remember anything after dying anyway, so it doesn't matter. It just feels emotionally bad and confusing before dying and hence I believe it's just easiest if you don't think about it <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
This topic messes your mind.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I know what you mean but I've decided that if there is nothing after death, I might as well do this life thing first. It's fun in this moment. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This kind of statement is the very basic need for religion in civilised society. If everyone felt this way man would NEVER have gotten this far. The "Everyman for himself" attitude found in <span style='color:white'>some</span> Atheists would surely be the down fall of man, were it the norm. Religion teaches you to respect your fellow man. Religion was a very good tool for keeping the masses in line, and extending it into politics was often the norm (Divine Right). People believe in God and an afterlife, to give their lives meaning. No one wants to believe that once you die, there is no respawning.
<span style='color:white'>Try to avoid blanket labelling.</span>
I recall reading about a philosopher who believed in a great world soul, and about how after we die we'll be absorbed and re-distributed. And it striked me, he just descriped the nature's cyclus.
If we are afraid to die it may have something to do with our natural defence mechanism <!--emo&:angry:--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/mad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='mad.gif'><!--endemo-->
Here's my personal belief: There is no culture in the world in which no religions developed. None. Even most atheistic philosphies include a kind of greater entity, like nature or the whole of humanity. This leads me to think that the tendency to believe in something 'larger than life' is an integral part of human nature.
If one accepts the previous statement, there's still a number of possible reasons for this behaviour; maybe it's necessary for a creature with self-concience to give itself a kind of higher purpose with it otherwise plunging into apathy, maybe this strive for something greater is the father-complex Feuerbach saw in it. But it's just as possible that this instinctive belief is the prove of the existence of a creator entity that wishes to be believed in.
The result of this instinct would of course differ from area to area, it would change, twist, and modify itself with each member of a society expressing him-or herself through the instinct into the shared religion/philosophy; this would however be irrelevant to the entity that once seeded the wish for belief in the human nature.
Thus, the mere existence of religion is to me the prove of something worth worshipping.
I do not claim that this is rationally totally waterproof - but it seems to be plausible to me.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->In the bible it says that God gave people a free will, so that means that in gods eyes everyone can decide if they become bad(eg. criminals, murderers) or good(eg. really kind people). Right? Wrong. It's not the childs fault if he has bad parents and they let their child become a criminal. I bet Saddam wasn't a bad person when he was born. He was just affected by the environment and hence, he should go to heaven too. So every criminal and non-believer is just a victim of their surroundings!
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Erm...no comment.
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Which touches another intresting subject, who are we?
Are we the victims of our experience and surroundings?, is our will limited? Ack, it's not easy to be a human in todays world <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
FACT:
There is no way whatsoever of knowing IF there is a deity and what this deity is like, because there is no way to "step through the looking glass"
THEREFORE:
agnost are always 100% correct
atheists have a 50% possibility of being correct
theist have a 0% possibility of being correct because religions make statements about their gods.
CONCLUSION:
any other statements are pure speculation based on presumptions<b>.</b> <- period
odds are you're wrong.
DISCLAIMER:
I'm _assuming_ logic always dictates reality..
however, I've seen direct proof myself that this is not always the case... (not that anybody's ever going to believe me... <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo--> )
religious people who realize they cannot know the nature of their god also join the 50%-winnar! club =)
But I of course dont belive in a God but if one exists then i'll just have to laugh in his face. This totalitarian will not rule my life. Wasted a good 5-9 years of my life through all that religion classes to become a good catholic boy meh to that. I sat there in bed thinking about this type of stuff long enough found my answers or possibilities happy about them hopefully one of them is true. But only time will tell that.
Just enjoy life as it is. Dont worry about dieing you'll just become some pyscho sitting in his house afraid all the time. Get out enjoy the life you have.
DuoTheGodOfDeath, I also read an article on scientists trying to solve the mystery of the afterlife, from what I heard they say there is one...Is it possible to even figure out if there is one? <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->
God is not a totalitarian <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo--> , he gave us complete freedom to do whatever we want, and even if our environment effects us when we are very young, we still have a choice to do what is right or wrong. Even when I grew up in a not so great family at times and been effected by a lot of things and people, I still had complete domination over my mind. Every human in this world knows the difference between good and evil, at least I think...
The universe is finite, if it is finite then it must have a beginning, <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> which in cause must call for an end. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
It must have a point of origin, singularity. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> To say that the Universe had a beginning would then implicate that it has cause and that a "superior reasoning of power" AKA God, must be in existence.
Its pretty clear that a God does exist, although many try not to believe, the theoritcal evidence is there and *everywhere*
But it is also clear that what we believe to be true may not really be.
I found a great site with some really good articles, mind you I aint no astrophysic's teacher, which everyone, who doesn't really know, can read:
<a href='http://www.facingthechallenge.org/hawking.htm' target='_blank'>http://www.facingthechallenge.org/hawking.htm</a>
and makes sure to check out this article:
<a href='http://www.leaderu.com/real/ri9404/bigbang.html' target='_blank'>http://www.leaderu.com/real/ri9404/bigbang.html</a>
Seeing that this discussion is necessarily touching very diverse images of the surpreme entity, it might be adviseable to describe your background before making your points.
<!--QuoteBegin--kida+Posted on Aug 21 2003, 07:47 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (kida @ Posted on Aug 21 2003, 07:47 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Every human in this world knows the difference between good and evil, at least I think...<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Good and evil are not very solid concepts. 500 years ago there was nothing wrong in slaying non-believers in the name of church or burning witches. It was actually a <i>good</i> thing to do. 10 commandments...well everyone actually brakes them on daily bases and how can we determine which one of them is more important than other? 1st commandment is the most important? I've already broken third and probably first in this thread only and murder is sixth.
The cause & effect paradox isn't really a problem, because reaction + counter-reacion = 0
It has been proven that some particles appear at random and dissappear moments later. always TWO of them, one negative, one positive..
so... matter can appear out of thin air! weird eh? as long as the universe stays 0.
thats my background.
As for me, I am Southern Baptist, and belive in the Father, The Son, and the Holy Spirit, the Ressurection, and the (eventual) second comming of Christ.
My pastor gave a very good sermon on just this topic not to long ago, this is the gist of it:
Men believe in God for one or more of 3 reasons,
They were raised that way, and do not know how not to
They feel Him calling them to do His work
or 3
God can offer them something they need
For many of us the thought of total obliteration is terrifying, and we need to belive that we will live again, and never cease to exist. God knows this, and that is why he tells us quite plainly in the bible "I am the way, the truth, and the light on your path, noone reaches my father but through me" Jesus is flat out telling us that if we want to live forever we must belive in Him. The bible allso says that any man who preaches the word of God will earn a place in heaven, even if they do it specifically for that purpose.
you describe the total obliteration as if you were floating disembodied through a void, total obliteration at death would me you ceased to exist, you ceased to think, you ceased to <i>be</i>
And because we have no real proof that what the bible says about the afterlife is true, we must have faith, as i have hammered on about in the other topic on this subject
[EDIT]: as to the free will argument, God never defines any unyielding morals except the ten commandments, sin is literally defined as failing to comply with the will of God, so if God changed his mind about something , and you did the opposite, it would be a sin, lucky for us he's an understanding fella...
To play devils advocate:
A whole religion, Buddhism, is centered around entering Nirvana, a state quite comparable to what you describe as the effect 'promised' to sinners in your religion. This means in effect that a rather big group of people would love to achieve what your religion tells you is the biggest punishment possible, indeed, the punishment god reserves for those that commited a crime against Him, which would, as logic dictates, have to be horrible for every human possibly falling under it.
Thus, doesn't the existence of a religion - or even group of people - not accepting the void as ultimate 'hell' counter-prove this idea of a divine punishment?
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I know what you mean but I've decided that if there is nothing after death, I might as well do this life thing first. It's fun in this moment. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This kind of statement is the very basic need for religion in civilised society. If everyone felt this way man would NEVER have gotten this far. The "Everyman for himself" attitude found in most Atheists would surely be the down fall of man, were it the norm. Religion teaches you to respect your fellow man. Religion was a very good tool for keeping the masses in line, and extending it into politics was often the norm (Divine Right). People believe in God and an afterlife, to give their lives meaning. No one wants to believe that once you die, there is no respawning. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Atheists are not automatically immoral people just because they don't conform to the beliefs of your religion.
Also I doubt the original poster exactly meant "life is an extended party, whoohoo!", like you took it. He meant life is for living, not dwelling on what happens afterward. He meant live life to its fullest, don't dwell on the unchangable or inevitable.
alius
Isn't that a bit akward? So god wants people to believe in him so they would get a place in heaven? That's kind of like you having friends that are only your friends because you are rich.
Also I don't understand why god wants people to believe in him? For what does he need it for? Why is it so important? I guess all things aren't meant to be undestood. It's a great argument btw; "Mysterious are the ways of almighty" <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
[QUOTE=></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->you describe the total obliteration as if you were floating disembodied through a void, total obliteration at death would me you ceased to exist, you ceased to think, you ceased to <i>be</i>[/QUOTE]
I don't know if you directed that to me but because I'm so egocentric I just assume you did. I excactly stated that it wouldn't matter if I would die on the very second I pressed "add reply" button because I wouldn't know or feel anything after that. So non-existence is not all that bad after all. Only reason that keeps us from ending everything is the uncertaintity of the afterlife. What if, even if the chances are 0,00001%, there is heaven and hell?
<!--QuoteBegin--MMZ>Torak,@ Aug 21 2003, 01:07 PM] If everyone felt this way man would NEVER have gotten this far.[/QUOTE]
So would you mind telling me why man should have gotten this far? What makes you think living beats being non-existant? I think that many people feel like I do. Life is fun now and I just won't end it because I'm not perfectly sure what's on the other side. If some day scientists really figure out if there is an afterlife, I bet that has a huge impact on suicide statistics. Wouldn't you end your life if you were perfectly sure you would be more happy after death? Currently it's just(imho) smartest to not think about religion and god all the time and just live our lives. We'll see soon enough what happens after we die. Or in the case of non-existence, we won't but then it doesn't really matter does it? <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
I'm rambling again, sorry.
PS. Wow, I h4xed the quotes.
IIRC, Pascal didn't try to prove God's existence, he argued that because proof is <i>absent</i>, we're compelled to wager (Pascal's Wager), and it's logical to "bet on God", because we have little to lose and infinitely more to win.
An actual attempt to <i>prove</i> God by means of logic would be the ontological argument, as first outlined by St. Anselm.
IIRC, Pascal didn't try to prove God's existence, he argued that because proof is <i>absent</i>, we're compelled to wager (Pascal's Wager), and it's logical to "bet on God", because we have little to lose and infinitely more to win.
An actual attempt to <i>prove</i> God by means of logic would be the ontological argument, as first outlined by St. Anselm. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Pascal created more than his wager (which tried to prove that the possible benefit of believing outweighed the risk of being wrong), although it's undoubtely by far his most famous work in the subject.
Yes, there's other, more prominent thinkers here; I've gotten a little rusty in ontological argumentation lately, so I could simply only remember Pascals name <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
... ??
*reads St. Anselm's theory .. again*
*reads St. Anselm's theory .. again*
there's something fundamentally flawed in his reasoning....
..
ah found it
BAD MATH!! infinity plus one <b>equals</b> infinity!!
First off the Definition of GOD is immensely huge, God can be anything from a white bearded man looking in on every second of your life and condemning you for masturbation, to the relationship among all the forces in the universe.
That being said, I think Nem touched on this topic very well in his first reply:
""" There is no culture in the world in which no religions developed. None. Even most atheistic philosophies include a kind of greater entity, like nature or the whole of humanity. This leads me to think that the tendency to believe in something 'larger than life' is an integral part of human nature. """
Because we as humans refuse to accept the fact that we are mammals, whose sole purpose is to propitiate our species, we try and give ourselves a greater role in our own existance. Now that’s not to say that religion cant be useful, nothing could be further from the truth, I’ve found that metaphysics and the study of certain religions has helped me greatly in living my life and communicating with the people around me. And there is a lot to be said for the fact that we have Perception (which most other animals seem to lack). But to answer the question of this topic, people believe in god because they want to have a greater sense of self-worth. It is after all kind disconcerting that in the age of the universe our entire civilization is not even the beginnings of a spark in a neural transmitter. (meaning we are not even a complete thought yet)
Also I don't understand why god wants people to believe in him? For what does he need it for? Why is it so important? I guess all things aren't meant to be undestood. It's a great argument btw; "Mysterious are the ways of almighty" <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Oo, I got this one. Heaven = God's presence. God wants people to believe in Him because he likes all of us, and wants us to come join him in the afterlife. This goes back to free will - God can't drag you to heaven after you die. You only end up there if you chose to follow him in life. God just cares about you and wants you to use your free will wisely.
God doesn't really "need" us to follow him. It's us who has the need, even if we don't know it.
To play devils advocate:
A whole religion, Buddhism, is centered around entering Nirvana, a state quite comparable to what you describe as the effect 'promised' to sinners in your religion. This means in effect that a rather big group of people would love to achieve what your religion tells you is the biggest punishment possible, indeed, the punishment god reserves for those that commited a crime against Him, which would, as logic dictates, have to be horrible for every human possibly falling under it.
Thus, doesn't the existence of a religion - or even group of people - not accepting the void as ultimate 'hell' counter-prove this idea of a divine punishment? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's not an entirely accurate comparison, because while Nirvana is the ultimate state of Buddhism, nonexistence is quite literally terrible to many Christians is because they will cease to exist knowing that they will be separated from God, forever. There is no such distinction in Buddhism, since you are technically a "god" at that point - your existence or nonexistence answers to no one but yourself. Yes, similar, but the premises are quite different.