<!--QuoteBegin--Torgo+Aug 27 2003, 06:17 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Torgo @ Aug 27 2003, 06:17 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--Ryo-Ohki+Aug 27 2003, 09:35 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Ryo-Ohki @ Aug 27 2003, 09:35 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> That's gotta be one of the most screwed up teachings I've ever seen. You're saying that I can r4pe, pillage, murder and steal so long as I have faith. And it's not like things can get any worse for me if I do these things, because I'm already going to hell for being born! Essentially I have been given a free license to act as I wish, and no matter how terrible the "sins" I commit, I'm still gureenteed a spot in heaven. Real great stuff to base a code of morals and ethics around.. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Listen, if you HAD faith and truly followed his teachings, you WOULN'T do those things in the first place. And if you <i>are</i> doing those things over and over again, then turn around going to people and saying "I truly believe in God and am going to heaven" then you're deceiving yourself.
Short Answer - What Epidemic said...he has a way with condensing what I'm thinking into a nice, concise sentence.
Also, on a side note, calling a widely accepted religion that I personally put a lot of belief in a "corrupt and debaucherous theology" is one thing...but comparing Jesus Christ to Adolph Hitler crosses the line of decency and respect for what other people believe...I'll just leave it at that...you're entitled to say whatever you want. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> The fact is Charles Manson or Hitler could have "found" their faith before they died, and wholy be accepted into heaven by what you are telling us. We aren't twisting your words, we're just pointing out the flawed logic.
Yes, it is POSSIBLE that Manson, Hitler etc... <i>could </i>have been saved by faith. God welcomes forgiveness to ALL people, despite what some people think. Whether it's accepted or not is for the individual to decide.
Mart - There's too many issues at hand without introducing the dinosaurs...please leave it to another thread.
1.: Always consider the possibilty that you are wrong and the other side is right. Stay open minded to other peoples points: Ignoring the other side and insisting on a few own arguments won't get you - or anybody else - anywhere. It's very much to ask, but try to consider other peoples argumentations, as opposed to ways of beating them.
2.: Never, ever, be judgemental towards the other side. Blanket labelling of another opinion as "stupid", "naive", "short sighted", "racist", "communist", "socialist", "liberal", "conservative", or what have you is often so close to flaming that it takes experts to find a difference. If you wish to express your personal opinion about another persons notion, try to stay away from valuing terms, and try to be as rational as humanly possible - you're treading on thin ice, and insulting the other side by calling it what it is not can't be in your interest.
3.: Try to stay rational. Nobody wishes to forbid you your personal opinion, but unless it is grounded on rational thought, as opposed to emotional reactions, it can't be seriously discussed. You can tell people that you "dislike the Republicans/Democrats because I hate Bushs/Clintons accent.", but it's not exactely possible to form argumentations around such a claim. Stating that you "dislike the Republicans/Democrats because I can't agree with their tax policy." would be a little better. Many religious arguments are a thin borderline away from being utterly emotional. This makes their use in many cases very problematic. Always assume that you try to convince - for convincing the other side has to be your prime goal - someone with differing faiths. If your argument still seems to hold water, it's probably OK.
At least TRY to abide by the forum rules. If you have absolutly no intention of listening to anyone elses points and are posting to simply repeat your beliefs over and over you are not contributing. Stop attacking other peoples relegion like a rabid wolf you are not contributing. And there is not a scrap of ratinonality in comparing Jesus to Hitler or making hypotheticals about mass murderers getting into heaven, you are not contributng.
Confusious says: "Are we the man dreaming of the butterfly or are we the butterfly dreaming of being a man?" <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
For me, there <i>might</i> be a god, im not sure. I'll find out when i die, and if there is something after i die, i hope it's better than life. Why better than life? Life was hell.
<!--QuoteBegin--Ryo-Ohki+Aug 26 2003, 06:03 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Ryo-Ohki @ Aug 26 2003, 06:03 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> No, for starters it is clear that I am refering to a monotheistic god-figure, and secondly, I do not believe in god. If I believed in it/her/him I would capitalise. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Too much in this thread to comment on ALL of it, but I found this kinda silly, Ryo. Regardless of what your personal beliefs are, in the English language, proper nouns are capitalized. It doesn't matter if the individual in question is fictional, or if you think they're fictional, or if their name happens to be the same as a common noun, or what. If you're saying "a god" or "the Christian god", go ahead and use that lowercase, because you're using "god" as a common noun. If you're saying "I don't believe in God", you're using "God" as a proper noun, and should capitalize. Lowercasing it makes it look like you're just trying to deliberately offend people. Which you may well be, but at least admit that. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
[edit]And frankly, that sort of borderline trollery doesn't add anything to your arguments, which are otherwise reasonably well constructed.[/edit]
Now that I am not so angry I will explain why I was. The whole point of a discussion is to make points and counter points, and ideally constructive ones. If that topic as it was is why should one believe in God, and your first point is "So you can get into heaven" and someone responds with "I do not believe in heaven" you can't respond with "but it exists" because that makes it no longer argumentative and is incredibly redundent.
Also keep in mind discussions sometimes end, if you find yourself repeating points that have been brought up multiple times already you might want to take into consideration if there is anything left to discuss. If you are thwarted on one point think, and this is the keyword, about making a different one, but by no means dig in and defend your single point as if your defending your life. This thread sort of derailed a little bit in my opinion because of posts that tried to support a single concept and people who were unwilling to accept the fact that not everyone held the same beliefs. If you look at the title of the thread and read the last few responses you wonder what the people are thinking. Please just be rational, take some time to think out your points, and most importantly if you can't seem to make a new point don't just repost your old one.
Well said, D. I'm wondering if we should have a distinct topic on fundamental Christianity - attempting to debate belief in God based on fossil records and salvation through good works vs salvation through faith is kinda pointless, because there are MANY MANY MANY people who believe in God and do not dispute fossil records, evolution, the spiritual value of good works, et cetera, and more than a few of them are Christians (just not the fundamental Protestant type).
So, Why DOES one belive in a God and why should one belive?
I think its all with hope... if you have no hope you dont have much to live for. You hope that you get a better computer soon or for a present; you hope that you're kids will have a better life... etc etc. I guess beliving in a God makes it seem just alittle more possible that it could happen.
You sometimes wonder if man is capable of good. Do we do good things because we are good or because we want to think that we are? I'm always suspicious of my good intentions.
<!--QuoteBegin--Bosnian+Aug 27 2003, 03:31 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Bosnian @ Aug 27 2003, 03:31 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> This face is good enough for me:
That Jesus kind of looks like a dork. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Different cultures put their own spin on Jesus (or any religious figure, for that matter). A lot of our oldest artistic depictions of Jesus come from Renaissance-era Europe, and their concept of human beauty heavily influences their depictions. I doubt those artists meant their work to be literal depications of Jesus's face, knowing full well that nobody really knows what he looked like; they just wanted to convey a sense of respect and wonder, and back then, that was the way to do it. A pale-skinned guy with eyeliner.
In Mexico, you'll find that depictions of Mary tend to be quite a bit darker-skinned than their European counterparts. Same deal. Every artist sees his subject through a particular lens, and shares that vision with his audience.
Umm, wow...this thread has turned into some sort of flame-fest... seriously people, why are you so bitter towards Christianity? I find that a lot of your arguments come from pure supposition without actually understanding Christian theology at all, or assuming that one premise of the religion speaks for the entirety of it. Slow down people.
<!--QuoteBegin--Wheeee+Aug 27 2003, 04:58 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Wheeee @ Aug 27 2003, 04:58 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> seriously people, why are you so bitter towards Christianity? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> dont speak for the general public... fyi im not "bitter" to anyone's religion, its just the way they <i>use</i> it that bothers me. Islam is a very peacful religion, really im serious, its just those other people that shape it into something nasty. <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo--> [Cristanity and many others are good too, but sometimes it just goes abit too far; IE Which trials/hunts etc]
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Our faith offers love and forgiveness for anyone who wants it and wants eternal life with God in heaven, why must you be so mean?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
*cough* what about homosexuals? <!--emo&:0--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wow.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wow.gif'><!--endemo--> (no flames, just one response so i can get a answer on that, and then let THAT part of this conversation DIE peacefully... no one argue. no one wants this locked. <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo--> )
I don't know for certain because i'm not over 4000 years old, but I imagine they wouldn't fit in the arc due to size constraints. Oh well, one less man-eating behemoth race to worry about. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I don't think you should take the "4000 year old Earth" thing too literally , unless you agree with the people who claim God manipulated the Carbon 14 atoms inside fossils to test the believer's faith. If you accept stretching the Genesis days by a few billion years , the story is relatively close to the actual evolution (ie. big bang separating matter from light , planets forming themselves , life appearing , plants and animals evolving , and then homo sapiens)
MartOrigin of SUYFJoin Date: 2002-02-26Member: 248Members
And for those of you who don't know, the picture Bosnian has posted is a scientific reconstruction of Jesus's face, taken from some bones that might possibly be his, or at least someone who died in the same general location.
Back to the point, people only dislike religion when it's used in a negative way that completely undermines itself.
I for instance wouldn't hate someone for being Christian or Islamic or anything else, but if that same person then used their religion as an excuse to inflict pain or suffering on others... not good.
And as religion has been <b>excessivly</b> used in the past and the present to warrent conflicts theres a stigma attached to die-hard worshiping.
<!--QuoteBegin--Mart+Aug 27 2003, 05:03 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Mart @ Aug 27 2003, 05:03 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> And for those of you who don't know, the picture Bosnian has posted is a scientific reconstruction of Jesus's face, taken from some bones that might possibly be his, or at least someone who died in the same general location. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> How in the holy heck do you conclude that the bones you have came from Jesus, given that all the eyewitness accounts say he ascended into heaven? I'm not saying they COULDN'T be his bones, but what evidence is there that they're his as opposed to any number of other people who lived in that area at that time?
[edit] I went and read the article that the picture was linked from - it specifically said that the reconstruction was done after the fashion of "any man" from that era, and that it was not based specifically on any speculated remains from Jesus. Interesting article - they used biblical clues to get a lot of the details (such as the short hair and the fact that he looked like an average Joe from Galilee). [/edit]
The face wasn't created from his bones. To my knowledge, he has no bones left over.
Here is the article - <a href='http://popularmechanics.com/science/research/2002/12/real_face_jesus/' target='_blank'>http://popularmechanics.com/science/resear...eal_face_jesus/</a>
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->what about homosexuals? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Love the person, hate the sin.
<!--QuoteBegin--Crisqo+Aug 27 2003, 05:34 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Crisqo @ Aug 27 2003, 05:34 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->what about homosexuals? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Love the person, hate the sin. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> *resists urge to scream*
Understand that when you say that, you're condemning what they consider to be an essential part of themselves as a "sin". It's difficult to see the separation unless you hold the belief that homosexuality is a "choice", rather than a quality of oneself.
There have been threads devoted to this, so let's not let it spiral from there, but just PLEASE recognize when you utter that phrase that it's hurtful to many people.
<!--QuoteBegin--Ulatoh+Aug 27 2003, 07:09 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Ulatoh @ Aug 27 2003, 07:09 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Our faith offers love and forgiveness for anyone who wants it and wants eternal life with God in heaven, why must you be so mean? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Certain people are going to respond negatively to a religion that says "you are doomed to hell unless you believe x".
You realize that your faith condemns even non-believers that live "good" lives, helping others etc. Alot of people find this reasoning to be absurd and offensive.
I'm just trying to explain in an honest way why some might be resentful. As a former Christian I have experienced the religion first-hand and can honestly say that most of the time it made me feel guilty for living in the first place. I remember being worried beyond belief that those that I cared about might not "measure up" and be sent to hell. Alot of people around seemed to be just "going through the motions"... as if going to church was just something you had to do to get that ticket into heaven.
In addition, as my logical reasoning matured with age and so forth, I came to the conclusion that alot of things in the bible just did not make sense. With the recent birth of my son I can honestly say that the idea of him being born "sinful" or not perfect because of Adam's original 'sin' or any such reasoning was inane beyond belief.
At any rate, I think I've probably contributed about as much as I can to this discussion thread. We all have to choose our own path at the end of the day. I think I've presented a fair view of at least how some religions got started, how they perpetuate themselves and how they tie in with the original question of "Why One Believes In God?".
Moon I found your post really sad. I mean it made me feel sad I'm not insulting you. Personally I'm a Christian and I cant say I do believe that God actually condemns people to hell. I believe that throughout ones life you are given a choice, to either accept or reject God. You are given enough evidence both ways that this becomes a CHOICE. If you decide you dont want to believe in God, then you will be able to find reasoning that backs you up. If you decide you DO want to believe in God then there is evidence also that will support you.
As for Hell, I believe that is a place where people send themselves. These people have chosen to reject God, and thus he does the only thing that would be fair to them, he created a place without himself and when these people that reject God die, they go there.
Now this place is utterly miserable, and I believe thats what the writers of the scriptures were trying to convey when they talked about fire and weeping and nashing of teeth. A place without God would be miserable to the extreme.
Now to this end, I also believe that my God is a God of justice. Therefore you will not go to hell simply for living in a remote village in the Himalayas that has never heard of Christianity. Sometime before you die you will make a decision to accept or reject God, even if you have never heard of him.
This puts me at odds with a lot of Christians, because I think that there will be a lot of Muslims and Materialists etc in heaven. However, if the Christian message is explained clearly and lucidly to you and you reject that, then I believe you have rejected God and have chosen to spend eternity without him.
Moon, that your son is born evil? Well in the Bible it says that if a child dies before it reaches the age of understanding (to be able to accept or reject God) then he goes to heaven. What the Bible means about your son being born evil is that eventually some time during his life he is going to do the wrong thing. He is not perfect. He is beautiful in your eyes, and in Gods, but he is not perfect. God will not accept anything less than perfection, which is where the Jesus interceding for humanity before God concept comes in.
you know, I think I might start a thread of my own about this particular model of hell.....
<!--QuoteBegin--[p4]Samwise+Aug 27 2003, 08:37 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> ([p4]Samwise @ Aug 27 2003, 08:37 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--Crisqo+Aug 27 2003, 05:34 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Crisqo @ Aug 27 2003, 05:34 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->what about homosexuals? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Love the person, hate the sin. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> *resists urge to scream*
Understand that when you say that, you're condemning what they consider to be an essential part of themselves as a "sin". It's difficult to see the separation unless you hold the belief that homosexuality is a "choice", rather than a quality of oneself.
There have been threads devoted to this, so let's not let it spiral from there, but just PLEASE recognize when you utter that phrase that it's hurtful to many people. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Samwise if you read the Bible you will find that there is nothing about feeling homosexually inclined that is evil. Feeling sexually inclined towards the same sex is seen as a disability, a trial God has placed in you life. The only sin is having homosexual intercourse. We dont hate the homosexual (or we shouldnt), we dont hate the fact that they are attracted to their own sex (or we shouldn't), we hate that fact that they accept their (as the bible puts it "perverse" longings) and enter into sexual relationships with one another.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->And there is not a scrap of ratinonality in comparing Jesus to Hitler or making hypotheticals about mass murderers getting into heaven, you are not contributng.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
While I will agree with the Jesus/Hitler thing, I staunchly disagree with the second part. Making hypotheticals about Ghandi vs Charles Manson illustrates one of my fundamental problems with believing in the christian version of god. To suggest that Ghandi would not nmake it to heaven but a repentant Charles Manson would, I find hypocritical. It too easily feeds into the self-serving person who could easliy live a life a debauchary and sin but in the last days of his life "realise the error of his ways" and get a free ticket into heaven, while a man who speant his entire life looking to the well-being and defense of other people, even at the possible cost of his own life, would not, is a travesty.
Looking at the initial post, this topic has started as a place to discuss the general concept of faith, as opposed to whether "Christianity is Good or Bad". I'd suggest you move that tangent into a seperate thread.
Comments
Listen, if you HAD faith and truly followed his teachings, you WOULN'T do those things in the first place. And if you <i>are</i> doing those things over and over again, then turn around going to people and saying "I truly believe in God and am going to heaven" then you're deceiving yourself.
Short Answer - What Epidemic said...he has a way with condensing what I'm thinking into a nice, concise sentence.
Also, on a side note, calling a widely accepted religion that I personally put a lot of belief in a "corrupt and debaucherous theology" is one thing...but comparing Jesus Christ to Adolph Hitler crosses the line of decency and respect for what other people believe...I'll just leave it at that...you're entitled to say whatever you want. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
The fact is Charles Manson or Hitler could have "found" their faith before they died, and wholy be accepted into heaven by what you are telling us. We aren't twisting your words, we're just pointing out the flawed logic.
Yes, it is POSSIBLE that Manson, Hitler etc... <i>could </i>have been saved by faith. God welcomes forgiveness to ALL people, despite what some people think. Whether it's accepted or not is for the individual to decide.
Mart - There's too many issues at hand without introducing the dinosaurs...please leave it to another thread.
1.: Always consider the possibilty that you are wrong and the other side is right.
Stay open minded to other peoples points: Ignoring the other side and insisting on a few own arguments won't get you - or anybody else - anywhere. It's very much to ask, but try to consider other peoples argumentations, as opposed to ways of beating them.
2.: Never, ever, be judgemental towards the other side.
Blanket labelling of another opinion as "stupid", "naive", "short sighted", "racist", "communist", "socialist", "liberal", "conservative", or what have you is often so close to flaming that it takes experts to find a difference. If you wish to express your personal opinion about another persons notion, try to stay away from valuing terms, and try to be as rational as humanly possible - you're treading on thin ice, and insulting the other side by calling it what it is not can't be in your interest.
3.: Try to stay rational.
Nobody wishes to forbid you your personal opinion, but unless it is grounded on rational thought, as opposed to emotional reactions, it can't be seriously discussed. You can tell people that you "dislike the Republicans/Democrats because I hate Bushs/Clintons accent.", but it's not exactely possible to form argumentations around such a claim. Stating that you "dislike the Republicans/Democrats because I can't agree with their tax policy." would be a little better.
Many religious arguments are a thin borderline away from being utterly emotional. This makes their use in many cases very problematic. Always assume that you try to convince - for convincing the other side has to be your prime goal - someone with differing faiths. If your argument still seems to hold water, it's probably OK.
At least TRY to abide by the forum rules. If you have absolutly no intention of listening to anyone elses points and are posting to simply repeat your beliefs over and over you are not contributing. Stop attacking other peoples relegion like a rabid wolf you are not contributing. And there is not a scrap of ratinonality in comparing Jesus to Hitler or making hypotheticals about mass murderers getting into heaven, you are not contributng.
As you wish.
* Mart gives the spirit of Bill Hicks a big hug and a handshake and runs off to bury fossils.
"Are we the man dreaming of the butterfly or are we the butterfly dreaming of being a man?"
<!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
For me, there <i>might</i> be a god, im not sure. I'll find out when i die, and if there is something after i die, i hope it's better than life. Why better than life? Life was hell.
Too much in this thread to comment on ALL of it, but I found this kinda silly, Ryo. Regardless of what your personal beliefs are, in the English language, proper nouns are capitalized. It doesn't matter if the individual in question is fictional, or if you think they're fictional, or if their name happens to be the same as a common noun, or what. If you're saying "a god" or "the Christian god", go ahead and use that lowercase, because you're using "god" as a common noun. If you're saying "I don't believe in God", you're using "God" as a proper noun, and should capitalize. Lowercasing it makes it look like you're just trying to deliberately offend people. Which you may well be, but at least admit that. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
[edit]And frankly, that sort of borderline trollery doesn't add anything to your arguments, which are otherwise reasonably well constructed.[/edit]
Also keep in mind discussions sometimes end, if you find yourself repeating points that have been brought up multiple times already you might want to take into consideration if there is anything left to discuss. If you are thwarted on one point think, and this is the keyword, about making a different one, but by no means dig in and defend your single point as if your defending your life. This thread sort of derailed a little bit in my opinion because of posts that tried to support a single concept and people who were unwilling to accept the fact that not everyone held the same beliefs. If you look at the title of the thread and read the last few responses you wonder what the people are thinking. Please just be rational, take some time to think out your points, and most importantly if you can't seem to make a new point don't just repost your old one.
So, Why DOES one belive in a God and why should one belive?
I think its all with hope... if you have no hope you dont have much to live for. You hope that you get a better computer soon or for a present; you hope that you're kids will have a better life... etc etc. I guess beliving in a God makes it seem just alittle more possible that it could happen.
<img src='http://popularmechanics.com/science/research/2002/12/real_face_jesus/images/tb_jesuslead-lg.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image'>
There is something very charming about it. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Indeed, but compared to this :
<img src='http://www.heartnsoul.com/Crist_portrait.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image'>
The point being that throughout history we have had quite the hand in deciding what our gods are like.
Different cultures put their own spin on Jesus (or any religious figure, for that matter). A lot of our oldest artistic depictions of Jesus come from Renaissance-era Europe, and their concept of human beauty heavily influences their depictions. I doubt those artists meant their work to be literal depications of Jesus's face, knowing full well that nobody really knows what he looked like; they just wanted to convey a sense of respect and wonder, and back then, that was the way to do it. A pale-skinned guy with eyeliner.
In Mexico, you'll find that depictions of Mary tend to be quite a bit darker-skinned than their European counterparts. Same deal. Every artist sees his subject through a particular lens, and shares that vision with his audience.
seriously people, why are you so bitter towards Christianity? I find that a lot of your arguments come from pure supposition without actually understanding Christian theology at all, or assuming that one premise of the religion speaks for the entirety of it. Slow down people.
dont speak for the general public... fyi im not "bitter" to anyone's religion, its just the way they <i>use</i> it that bothers me. Islam is a very peacful religion, really im serious, its just those other people that shape it into something nasty. <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo--> [Cristanity and many others are good too, but sometimes it just goes abit too far; IE Which trials/hunts etc]
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Our faith offers love and forgiveness for anyone who wants it and wants eternal life with God in heaven, why must you be so mean?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
*cough* what about homosexuals? <!--emo&:0--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wow.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wow.gif'><!--endemo--> (no flames, just one response so i can get a answer on that, and then let THAT part of this conversation DIE peacefully... no one argue. no one wants this locked. <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo--> )
Dinosaurs. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't know for certain because i'm not over 4000 years old, but I imagine they wouldn't fit in the arc due to size constraints. Oh well, one less man-eating behemoth race to worry about. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't think you should take the "4000 year old Earth" thing too literally , unless you agree with the people who claim God manipulated the Carbon 14 atoms inside fossils to test the believer's faith. If you accept stretching the Genesis days by a few billion years , the story is relatively close to the actual evolution (ie. big bang separating matter from light , planets forming themselves , life appearing , plants and animals evolving , and then homo sapiens)
Back to the point, people only dislike religion when it's used in a negative way that completely undermines itself.
I for instance wouldn't hate someone for being Christian or Islamic or anything else, but if that same person then used their religion as an excuse to inflict pain or suffering on others... not good.
And as religion has been <b>excessivly</b> used in the past and the present to warrent conflicts theres a stigma attached to die-hard worshiping.
How in the holy heck do you conclude that the bones you have came from Jesus, given that all the eyewitness accounts say he ascended into heaven? I'm not saying they COULDN'T be his bones, but what evidence is there that they're his as opposed to any number of other people who lived in that area at that time?
[edit]
I went and read the article that the picture was linked from - it specifically said that the reconstruction was done after the fashion of "any man" from that era, and that it was not based specifically on any speculated remains from Jesus. Interesting article - they used biblical clues to get a lot of the details (such as the short hair and the fact that he looked like an average Joe from Galilee).
[/edit]
Here is the article - <a href='http://popularmechanics.com/science/research/2002/12/real_face_jesus/' target='_blank'>http://popularmechanics.com/science/resear...eal_face_jesus/</a>
Love the person, hate the sin.
Love the person, hate the sin. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
*resists urge to scream*
Understand that when you say that, you're condemning what they consider to be an essential part of themselves as a "sin". It's difficult to see the separation unless you hold the belief that homosexuality is a "choice", rather than a quality of oneself.
There have been threads devoted to this, so let's not let it spiral from there, but just PLEASE recognize when you utter that phrase that it's hurtful to many people.
His grace is sufficient for all. Total forgiveness, should it be accepted.
Certain people are going to respond negatively to a religion that says "you are doomed to hell unless you believe x".
You realize that your faith condemns even non-believers that live "good" lives, helping others etc. Alot of people find this reasoning to be absurd and offensive.
I'm just trying to explain in an honest way why some might be resentful. As a former Christian I have experienced the religion first-hand and can honestly say that most of the time it made me feel guilty for living in the first place. I remember being worried beyond belief that those that I cared about might not "measure up" and be sent to hell. Alot of people around seemed to be just "going through the motions"... as if going to church was just something you had to do to get that ticket into heaven.
In addition, as my logical reasoning matured with age and so forth, I came to the conclusion that alot of things in the bible just did not make sense. With the recent birth of my son I can honestly say that the idea of him being born "sinful" or not perfect because of Adam's original 'sin' or any such reasoning was inane beyond belief.
At any rate, I think I've probably contributed about as much as I can to this discussion thread. We all have to choose our own path at the end of the day. I think I've presented a fair view of at least how some religions got started, how they perpetuate themselves and how they tie in with the original question of "Why One Believes In God?".
As for Hell, I believe that is a place where people send themselves. These people have chosen to reject God, and thus he does the only thing that would be fair to them, he created a place without himself and when these people that reject God die, they go there.
Now this place is utterly miserable, and I believe thats what the writers of the scriptures were trying to convey when they talked about fire and weeping and nashing of teeth. A place without God would be miserable to the extreme.
Now to this end, I also believe that my God is a God of justice. Therefore you will not go to hell simply for living in a remote village in the Himalayas that has never heard of Christianity. Sometime before you die you will make a decision to accept or reject God, even if you have never heard of him.
This puts me at odds with a lot of Christians, because I think that there will be a lot of Muslims and Materialists etc in heaven. However, if the Christian message is explained clearly and lucidly to you and you reject that, then I believe you have rejected God and have chosen to spend eternity without him.
Moon, that your son is born evil? Well in the Bible it says that if a child dies before it reaches the age of understanding (to be able to accept or reject God) then he goes to heaven. What the Bible means about your son being born evil is that eventually some time during his life he is going to do the wrong thing. He is not perfect. He is beautiful in your eyes, and in Gods, but he is not perfect. God will not accept anything less than perfection, which is where the Jesus interceding for humanity before God concept comes in.
you know, I think I might start a thread of my own about this particular model of hell.....
Love the person, hate the sin. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
*resists urge to scream*
Understand that when you say that, you're condemning what they consider to be an essential part of themselves as a "sin". It's difficult to see the separation unless you hold the belief that homosexuality is a "choice", rather than a quality of oneself.
There have been threads devoted to this, so let's not let it spiral from there, but just PLEASE recognize when you utter that phrase that it's hurtful to many people. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Samwise if you read the Bible you will find that there is nothing about feeling homosexually inclined that is evil. Feeling sexually inclined towards the same sex is seen as a disability, a trial God has placed in you life. The only sin is having homosexual intercourse. We dont hate the homosexual (or we shouldnt), we dont hate the fact that they are attracted to their own sex (or we shouldn't), we hate that fact that they accept their (as the bible puts it "perverse" longings) and enter into sexual relationships with one another.
While I will agree with the Jesus/Hitler thing, I staunchly disagree with the second part. Making hypotheticals about Ghandi vs Charles Manson illustrates one of my fundamental problems with believing in the christian version of god. To suggest that Ghandi would not nmake it to heaven but a repentant Charles Manson would, I find hypocritical. It too easily feeds into the self-serving person who could easliy live a life a debauchary and sin but in the last days of his life "realise the error of his ways" and get a free ticket into heaven, while a man who speant his entire life looking to the well-being and defense of other people, even at the possible cost of his own life, would not, is a travesty.